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Zergrusheddie
2009-07-23, 08:47 PM
One group that I'm in on consists of a Rogue, Evoker Wizard, Sword and Board Fighter, Warlock, a Cleric who is focused on raise dead, and me as the Druid. I switched to Druid after I realized that my Monk was not going to be strong enough fast enough to keep up with them. Currently, we are level 6 and the party seems to be concerned that I am somewhat ineffective. Basically, I have so far been shifted into a Baboon and using my Quarterstaff as a 2-handed weapon. My Riding Dog runs at a AC 31 with Barkskin shared between the two of us. He attacks +8 and he was just meant to be a tank until 7th. No dinosaurs, so no Mr. Fleshraker.

I get the impression that they are thinking me as a fifth wheel. Maybe it's because I am one of the younger and less experienced players or they have never seen a Druid be of any use as the last person who played a Druid in that group focused on Archery and never used an Animal Companion. As a Baboon, I attack at Staff +8 for 1d6+4 and Bite +6 for 1d6+4 with an AC of 21. Am I doing something wrong here or do I just need to gain some levels?

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

Glimbur
2009-07-23, 08:53 PM
You're also a spellcaster. Take spells like Entangle, Produce Flame for ranged attacks, Shillelagh or Flame Blade, Magic Fang or its Greater version, Sleet Storm, and other spells I'm sure other people have told you about as I typed this message.

jmbrown
2009-07-23, 08:57 PM
Frankly the party's so large that all of your bases are covered. It's one of the drawbacks to having a large party.

However a druid's spellcasting is more offensive than a cleric's. Eventually you'll be in a situation where the other players would really, really wish they had a druid around.

PId6
2009-07-23, 09:06 PM
Huh, compared to the other party members, a druid should be vastly outshining all of them, with the possible exception of the cleric. What books can you use?

Weezer
2009-07-23, 09:15 PM
If your using a quarterstaff try buffing it before combat Shillelagh and spikes, that should net you a quarterstaff that deals 2d6+6 damage w/ +3 to hit and a doubled crit range all before stats. Also as others have said use your casting, entangle, sleet storm, buffs etc. You are a full caster and that should be much of what you spend your turns doing.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-23, 09:29 PM
If you don't have it, get the Natural Spell feat.

KillianHawkeye
2009-07-23, 09:29 PM
Yeah, just because a Druid can be a better fighter than a Fighter with just Wild Shape and his animal companion doesn't mean you should forget about your spellcasting. :smallbiggrin:

Tharivol123
2009-07-23, 10:28 PM
Didn't see it mentioned, but is shifter allowed and what other books are allowed?

Shifter is in Master of the Wild if you access to it. If allowed, do that with the natural spell feat and start grabbing forms. Also look at Complete Divine, with the Fast Wildshape and Extra Wildshape feats. Miasma is another fun spell from Complete Divine. Its 6th level so you have some time to go, but there are plenty of nice lower lever spells in there as well. Speaking Wildshape is another nice one, since it let's you hold conversations with other animals or elementals of your form (MotW).
Shifter gives you access to greater wildshape, letting you shift into any creature as long as its Hit Dice don't exceed yours. You can also trade wildshapes in for greaters, and at level 10 shifter you stop aging, become immune to magical aging, gain 60ft darkvision, and can use greater wildshape unlimited times per day as a move action.
With greater, you also get to retain any of your equipment that your shape is able to wear. Shifter can be fun.

Edit: Notice everything I mentioned from Complete Divine is in MotW. See if the DM will allow that, if he doesn't already.

Kallisti
2009-07-23, 10:38 PM
Natural Spell. Absolutely natural spell.

Also, just buff yourself. At level six, your baboon with a quarterstaff is pretty fair melee. But with Shillelagh, Entangling Staff, Magic Fang for you and your companion, Barkskin, and Animal Growth, he can scare your sword-and-board fighter with his damage capacity.

Just remember: Wild Shape rocks, but you need your spells.

When combat starts, your dog carries you up close as you cast a spell (Entangle, anyone?) Then, start thwacking. If you need time to get up your buffs, just drop Call Lightning in the first round, then buff away and zap things.

Look into Wild feats from Complete Divine and Masters of the Wild.

I think the biggest problem is just that you're underutilizing your spells.

Now, go outshine the fighter! Good luck!

PId6
2009-07-23, 10:44 PM
Now, go outshine the fighter, rogue, wizard, warlock, cleric!
Fixed it for you.

Aron Times
2009-07-23, 10:48 PM
Druid? Underpowered? You're doing it wrong. :smallwink:

As the other posters have mentioned, Natural Spell is the first step into brokeness. It allows you to be a better fighter than the fighter and a better spellcaster than the evoker AT THE SAME TIME (Evocation is the weakest school, btw).

Vaynor
2009-07-23, 10:53 PM
Err, a baboon? Try a brown bear. A little better with combat.

Edit: I forgot bears were large and thus cannot be wildshaped into at this level.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-23, 11:45 PM
I love these forums; I post something, I eat dinner, and 100 people have already said :"Try this instead." Thankfully for the retarded (me :smallredface:), all y'all a are great help.


Err, a baboon? Try a brown bear. A little better with combat.

+1 Staff that on hit DC 15 Fortitude or take 2d8 damage and either fall prone or drop weapon by Wither Limbs. Forcing a Fortitude roll or lose because you no longer can stand up seemed better than a Brown Bear. Plus I can buff it up to 2d6+10 damage.


If your using a quarterstaff try buffing it before combat Shillelagh and spikes, that should net you a quarterstaff that deals 2d6+6 damage w/ +3 to hit and a doubled crit range all before stats. Also as others have said use your casting, entangle, sleet storm, buffs etc. You are a full caster and that should be much of what you spend your turns doing.

Monday was the first time actually using him. We haven't had any fights where Brambles + Shillelagh was necessary.

I have been underusing my spells but at 6th level I don't really have an abundance of them. I've mostly had Barkskin and Greater Magic Fang running 24/7. I more or less figured it was the party just as much as it was me. When I said that Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon was excellent for damage, they mostly said that it was "the best way to deal no damage."

So, for my 6th level Druid, what do you great people suggest? All books are allowed at DM's discretion. Feats are given every 3 levels and I have Multi-Attack, Natural Spell, and Spellbound Companion (share spell up to 30 feet).

VirOath
2009-07-23, 11:49 PM
Hmm, are splat books allowed? Out of Campaign material too?

I dare mention Serpent Kingdoms, Frost Burn, or Sandstorm... (Edit: Figured I'd better explain. Serpent Kingdoms has one of the most broken druid spells in existence, FrostBurn has Creeping Chill, and Sandstorm has an ACF that allows wildshape to take Vermin instead of animals. That is you can turn into the mobs that are balanced by having a null int, not supposed to use tactics.)

But don't aim for having arms and hands, natural attacks are often much better for a druid than weapons, barring special occasions. Mostly having more attacks in a single round, which is most Str damage too. And no offense, but a 15 fort isn't that hard to hit (3rd level fighter or cleric with good con can get higher than a 50% success rate without pushing it too high. Better against poor Fort mobs, but those generally are "sheets in the wind")

You sound like you are using your spells, so take a second look at your list and be creative. Others have already said.

Aside from that, look forward to Dire Lion when you hit 8th.

Myrmex
2009-07-23, 11:59 PM
There's a higher level version of brambles called spikes that lasts hours/level. Definitely put that on your stick.

Summoning cats or dinos can be very effective, as they get pounce and trips or grapples they can use without risking bad things in retaliation. I know it takes a full round to summon, but you then essentially get 3 to 5 extra attacks/round for the rest of the battle. Summon your lion in a place where it will be able to both get flanking and be able to charge, for +4 to it's +7 claw claw, +2 bite routine. If the bite lands, it gets a free grapple check and two rakes.

Lions make for both great battlefield control & tanking.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-24, 12:18 AM
Battlefield Control is going to be where your skills will be needed the most.

To this end, may I make some suggestions for your summons?

First off, you can summon a Dire Wolf. Please note the Tripping ability. He's a tripping beast, and can probably make the check on just about anything you are going to face yet. Tripped means Prone. Means people get to beat him down, and he can't really move away from it. And provokes an Attack of Opportunity when someone tries. And can be used to set up Flanking with the rogue.

Honestly, best thing for facing a swarm of mooks is to cast Summon Monster III to summon a pack of Wolves. They'll be tripping people all over the place, setting themselves up to flank for the Rogue, and in general, making the mook's lives pure hell.

Also, DO NOT underestimate the power of the Poison spell. 1d10 CON damage is nothing to sneeze at. Particularly not when you follow it up with ANOTHER Poison spell, or use metamagic on it. Really, Poison is like the Druid's version of Enervation, it can be used to kill or nerf things very quickly.

Call Lightning is good, if you are outdoors. When you get to summon Large Elementals (or can turn into one), having a large air elemental out increases the damage of this spell from d6's to d10's.

Sleet Storm is an extremely effective battlefield control spell, because it does not allow SR. It's like Grease's bigger brother.

Warp Wood is another good utility spell, particularly against archers, and can also be used as a door opener.

Myrmex
2009-07-24, 12:27 AM
I've always found call lightning to be underwhelming. Using your standard action to throw around weak blasty effects with a save for half just seems like a waste of time. And a 3rd level spell slot.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 12:41 AM
I'm a little concerned about using Battlefield Control though. The Wizard is an Evoker and is throwing out DC22 Fireballs that deal either 35 or 42. While nothing extraordinary, it means that blowing an Entangle to stop 5 guys from getting to us is sort of moot when he is going to burn his spells to kill them anyway.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-24, 12:43 AM
I've always found call lightning to be underwhelming. Using your standard action to throw around weak blasty effects with a save for half just seems like a waste of time. And a 3rd level spell slot.

Ahh, didn't notice the standard action thing, thought it just happened every round. That does make it less appealing

Also, do not underestimate Soften Earth and Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/softenEarthAndStone.htm) as battlefield control. You can mire some of the more dangerous opponents and save them for later.

Also, Battlefield Control and AE Blasting is like chocolate and peanut butter. Each are fun, but together they are awesome!

You see, if opponents scatter, he won't get much out of his fireball blastiness. You can keep 'em all hedged in so he gets a nice big fat juicy target. You can also help make sure he doesn't do Friendly Fire.

Really, it doesn't matter if your summoned wolves all get incinerated with the mooks, because... well.. they're just gonna poof anyways, so it's not like he's damaging anything that will be there in a few rounds. The wolf pack you summon is just to keep opponents in place while he lines up his whammy.

Milskidasith
2009-07-24, 12:48 AM
If you are level 6, it shouldn't be a OHKO on enemy melee units to take 35 damage, should it? I mean, if the wizard is OHKOing the enemies with blasting spells because they are grouped together closely and have low hit dice, then it seems more like the DM is playing to their strengths than you being weak (remember, entangle has twice the area of a fireball, and if you fight units with D12 hit dice like barbarians or warblades, a fireball isn't going to stop them even before you add in their con modifiers. So if the DM is sending enemies with D8 or lower hit dice, low con modifiers, and grouping them together, it's going to play to the AE, ask him to send D12 hit dice enemies more spread out to play towards your strengths.)

So yeah, if the enemies are all designed so that fireball is a OHKO, of course you are going to be underwhelming, because when one fireball breaks the encounter in a huge party, your crowd control isn't going to be able to shine.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-24, 01:15 AM
I'm a little concerned about using Battlefield Control though. The Wizard is an Evoker and is throwing out DC22 Fireballs that deal either 35 or 42. While nothing extraordinary, it means that blowing an Entangle to stop 5 guys from getting to us is sort of moot when he is going to burn his spells to kill them anyway....how? Unless he's Arcane Thesis'd, he can't effectively meta them, so you're looking at 6d6 damage, average 21, ref for half, max 36. He'd have to be CL 10, and that's not easy at your level.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 01:26 AM
...how? Unless he's Arcane Thesis'd, he can't effectively meta them, so you're looking at 6d6 damage, average 21, ref for half, max 36. He'd have to be CL 10, and that's not easy at your level.

DM created system. The more schools you give up, the better your primary school is. He has Arcane Thesis and some other stuff. Basically, Fireball is all he can do.

Tharivol123
2009-07-24, 01:30 AM
Wow. Sounds like somebody's character is set up for a world of hurt in the future. If I were the DM, I would throw something with fire resistance at your party right now just to show how foolish the wizard was. For that kind of damage output how many schools did he ban (and which ones)?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-24, 01:32 AM
DM created system. The more schools you give up, the better your primary school is. He has Arcane Thesis and some other stuff. Basically, Fireball is all he can do.

Then later on, you will be massively more powerful than him, and you may merely bide your time until you are a minor diety and he is some shmuck who is doing the same trick he was ten levels ago

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-24, 01:33 AM
DM created system. The more schools you give up, the better your primary school is. He has Arcane Thesis and some other stuff. Basically, Fireball is all he can do.Yeah, don't worry too much. Pretty soon, foes with SR and Fire Resist will start popping up. When that happens, the party will be very annoyed that he doesn't have Haste.

Milskidasith
2009-07-24, 01:34 AM
Hell, just throw a bunch of stuff with good HD, something like evasion, good reflex saves, and keep them from being 20 feet from each other. It wouldn't be as explicitly "Wizard sucks, time for others to shine;" but it would be more along the lines of "You know, maybe you could try crowd control spells here... they seem to be pretty good against direct damage. Entangle, anyone?"

But yeah, a wizard super specialized into fireballs like that will only be great if the DM throws encounters at them that can be solved with fireballs. If he wants his other players to shine, don't allow somebody to throw around fireballs at a way higher CL than normal, and especially don't set the enemies up so it toasts most of them in one go.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 02:02 AM
He also has Item Familiar; he loads spells into his staff. He has banned Transmutation (bye haste), Abjuration, Enchantment, and Necromancy.
The players I play with are old fashioned; they believe that damage is the be all and end all. All Wizards are basically like Tim the Enchanter and most of them have not even heard of Glitterdust. When I suggested it to the Wizard, he said that it wasn't as good as a Fireball. That's why I was sort of scratching my head when they suggested I was doing something extremely wrong.

Sanguine
2009-07-24, 02:04 AM
He also has Item Familiar; he loads spells into his staff. He has banned Transmutation (bye haste), Abjuration, Enchantment, and Necromancy.
The players I play with are old fashioned; they believe that damage is the be all and end all. All Wizards are basically like Tim the Enchanter and most of them have not even heard of Glitterdust. When I suggested it to the Wizard, he said that it wasn't as good as a Fireball. That's why I was sort of scratching my head when they suggested I was doing something extremely wrong.

Does he realize the Core spell with one of (if not the) the biggest damage output is Transmutation. Not to mention Irresistible dance pwns all.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 02:07 AM
Does he realize the Core spell with one of (if not the) the biggest damage output is Transmutation. Not to mention Irresistible dance pwns all.

Oh yes. I even mentioned the Orb spells. His response was "Wizards can't make the Touch Attack."

Does anyone have any advice for my character? I'm sort of lost on forms at the moment.

jmbrown
2009-07-24, 02:09 AM
He also has Item Familiar; he loads spells into his staff. He has banned Transmutation (bye haste), Abjuration, Enchantment, and Necromancy.
The players I play with are old fashioned; they believe that damage is the be all and end all. All Wizards are basically like Tim the Enchanter and most of them have not even heard of Glitterdust. When I suggested it to the Wizard, he said that it wasn't as good as a Fireball. That's why I was sort of scratching my head when they suggested I was doing something extremely wrong.

I would just stop playing because these guys don't sound fun at all.

Kylarra
2009-07-24, 02:09 AM
You play with Nuclear Dan (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=349)!

Sanguine
2009-07-24, 02:09 AM
Oh yes. I even mentioned the Orb spells. His response was "Wizards can't make the Touch Attack."

Does anyone have any advice for my character? I'm sort of lost on forms at the moment.

Wow. Well I'm not sure if you qualify for any yet but Dinosaurs are always nice.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 02:13 AM
You play with Nuclear Dan (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=349)!

Not quite. Anything other than Conjuration and Evocation hits the pavement. But yes, he did make a similar argument when he was told that he had to keep Divination.

mabriss lethe
2009-07-24, 02:33 AM
If spell compendium is allowed, There are some rather nice druid spells in there.....Serpent's Strike.(.or something like that) comes to mind. It's basically a haste variant for druids. There are 1st and 2nd level versions of the spell (singular target and mass respectively.) You won't get quite as much out of it as a wizard will with Haste, but it's a solid spell.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 02:38 AM
If spell compendium is allowed, There are some rather nice druid spells in there.....Serpent's Strike.(.or something like that) comes to mind. It's basically a haste variant for druids. There are 1st and 2nd level versions of the spell (singular target and mass respectively.) You won't get quite as much out of it as a wizard will with Haste, but it's a solid spell.

I saw that, it is basically "get a free swing." What interests me now is the Entangling Staff spell.

Shillelagh + Spikes + Entangling Staff would net me a +9 2d6+9 damage attack with a +2d6 on a successful Grapple. Of course, the amount of time that takes make it almost infeasible.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-24, 02:56 AM
Yanno what? Wait around five levels or so, then see who is more effective.

Right now, he's front-loaded, so he's a bit more powerful. Bide your time.

At level 11, you will be wild shaping into a Dire Bear, WTFPWNing everything in sight. You will also have access to such gems as Baleful Polymorph (Fort Save or be a bunny), Animal Growth (which you qualify as a target for when in Wild Shape, giving you major stat boosts, DR 10/magic, +4 all resists, AND also affects your Animal Companion and even summons), Rusting Grasp, and can cast a Reach Spit Ray Poison for 2d10 CON damage.

He will be... casting Fireballs... at the same damage output... because Arcane Thesis only works on one spell, which caps at 10d6.

kamikasei
2009-07-24, 02:59 AM
It would probably be a good idea for you to list all the houserules/optional rules the group is playing with. No good our suggesting options to you that it turns out they've nerfed because they're not how they think the game should be played.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 03:20 AM
Of course:
Feats every 2 levels.
Barding is acceptable.
I can wear armor and use a weapon providing I shift into something that could actually use it. Thus why I am a baboon.
All sources are allowed based on DM discretion.

I'm not really concerned about the Wizard; I know full well that he will kill almost everything until around level 10 when monsters have high saves, huge hit points, and SR. I mainly just made this thread as a "I'm doing something wrong?" and, low and behold, this great forum informed me that I was. :smalleek:

Quietus
2009-07-24, 03:46 AM
There's also the OTHER factor... druids aren't as "wtfpwnall" as everyone seems to think in the early game. Riding dogs/wolves are strong at first level, sure, but it's surprising how quickly PC levels will outstrip a low strength and free trip.

The fact is, you don't get a REAL combat form until you get Large size forms. Tigers (dire or otherwise) are fantastic combat forms, and in your case, Ape will be a significant power boost. Level 9 is when you REALLY start to shine, though, because fifth level spells means things like 1d4+1 dire wolves, and Animal Growth. Until level 8/9, you'll not really match what the forums claim a druid is capable of, at least not without fleshraker and venomfire.

Until then, work the support angle. In natural settings, you should be the go-to guy for creative spellcasting. Soften Earth and Stone, and Stone Shape, any time you're in a cave - the latter still works when you're in a place with worked stone. In forests, you have Plant Growth (Anything Large is reduced to 10 feet speed, anything small/medium reduce to five), Warp Wood (also good any time you're fighting spear/bow users), Wood Shape... and I've never regretted preparing Entangle or Produce Flame.

You want to be effective in combat? Find a fast-moving group that could be painful if met in melee... then Plant Growth (overgrowth version) them in place. Then nod in the direction of the Evoker. The opponents are strongly limited in movement, meaning he can Fireball away with impunity. One spell on your part, and one or two from him. Granted, these are your higher level spells.. but if you don't expect the foes to have good Reflex saves, you can just use Entangle instead, and then meet anyone who escapes it in melee with your Shillelagh. Entangle + Shillelagh = two first level spells.

Also, just a random reminder - CARRY SCROLLS. There's several things that you rarely need, but when you DO need them, they're encounter-breaking. A Faerie Fire or three, a couple Stone/Wood shape, and generally anything else that can be considered "support". I'd also carry a Diminish Plants scroll or two, and then provide your party with a safe camping spot any time you have a Plant Growth in memory at the end of the night. Using the circle version, you can make all the plants in a 100 foot radius circle become overgrown - think those tall hedges that people use as fences, but 80 feet thick. Anything not specifically looking for you isn't likely to come through that. You can leave any area inside the Overgrown zone clear; Leave a 20-foot radius hole in the middle of the circle, that's plenty room for a camp. The scrolls of Diminish Plants are in case someone DOES come after you specifically, and you need to get out quickly.

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 05:43 AM
Animal Growth (which you qualify as a target for when in Wild Shape

This actually doesn't work under the revised WS errata, since your type doesn't actually become animal. You stay as an Augmented Human (Shapeshifter Subtype), and thus aren't a valid target for Animal Growth. Its kinda wonky and counterintuitive, but I'm pretty sure it was done from a balance PoV.

Anyway, Mr Eddie, you mentioned your love of Spikes. Do note that the duration on that one is HOURS/level. Memorize 2/day, and you shouldn't be running into duration problems in a given adventuring day. Alternatively, Extend one, possibly with a MM Rod if you have one. Then, cast Brambles (Clr/Drd2, CDivine) when you go into combat (its WAY better than Sheleleigh). At minutes/level, Brambles is even long enough that you can prebuff before you kick a door down when you are certain something mean is behind it. That cuts your buffage down to 1 round in combat, which can be combined with a move action to get into full attack range.

Also, check out Vine Mine as a pretty badass BC spell with fringe benefits. Wall of Thorns will quickly earn its name as a thorn in your DMs side when used properly. And when in doubt, never EVER underestimate the ability to throw a half a dozen hippogryphs at the problem. From a 4th level slot, you get 1d4+1, and 1-2 castings of that can really gum up a battlefield with Large sized combatants who are relatively robust still and respond EXTREMELY favorably to a well placed Mass Snakes Swiftness.

#Raptor
2009-07-24, 06:25 AM
There's also the OTHER factor... druids aren't as "wtfpwnall" as everyone seems to think in the early game. Riding dogs/wolves are strong at first level, sure, but it's surprising how quickly PC levels will outstrip a low strength and free trip.Well, I'm no druid expert - but with that I'll definitely have to disagree. Summons got alot better stuff than only wolves and if a druid focusses on summoning his summons can definitely raise hell for a long while.

Ranis
2009-07-24, 06:29 AM
I dare mention Serpent Kingdoms, Frost Burn, or Sandstorm... (Edit: Figured I'd better explain. Serpent Kingdoms has one of the most broken druid spells in existence,

What spell is this? There are only like 7 spells in the book, and Lava Splash's damage is confusing. You talking about Scent?

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 06:31 AM
Nah, hes talking about Venomfire. Its like, uncapped 2d6/CL acid damage per CL on every hit with no save and a HUGE duration. Get a form that has multiple attacks with poison (the most common is the Fleshraker from MMIII, which is out of the picture for this particular drood).

mcv
2009-07-24, 08:13 AM
The players I play with are old fashioned; they believe that damage is the be all and end all.
Does the GM agree? Does he just want the game to be a slugging match that's all about HP and damage and nothing else? You might try suggesting he let you fight monsters that are less vulnerable to fireballs.

(I don't know anything about D&D monsters, but I'm sure others can tell you exactly what sort of opponents you should sneakily suggest to your GM.)


I mainly just made this thread as a "I'm doing something wrong?" and, low and behold, this great forum informed me that I was.
I don't think there's a wrong way to play a druid, but if you want to me more effective, a druid has special abilities more powerful than some entire classes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-24, 08:16 AM
DM created system. The more schools you give up, the better your primary school is. He has Arcane Thesis and some other stuff. Basically, Fireball is all he can do.

Resist Fire is a second level spell.

Protection from Fire is a third level spell.


I'm a little concerned about using Battlefield Control though. The Wizard is an Evoker and is throwing out DC22 Fireballs that deal either 35 or 42. While nothing extraordinary, it means that blowing an Entangle to stop 5 guys from getting to us is sort of moot when he is going to burn his spells to kill them anyway.
Focus on Save or Sucking/controlling what he can't fireball?

Gnaeus
2009-07-24, 08:40 AM
I could be wrong, because there are plenty of great druid feats, but at level 8 I would seriously consider picking a reach weapon (probably spiked chain) for my feat.

It doesn't do as much damage as your brambled quarterstaff, but your ability to cast Bite of the WereX (Spell compendium) and lay melee beat down on enemies 20 feat away will make your sword and board fighter look like a chump. With large size and your huge buffed strength you could even be a trip-fighter, on rounds when you didn't have cool spells to cast.

Vortling
2009-07-24, 09:41 AM
I'll second the Bite of the Were(X) spells. Combined with Dire Ape at level 8 you should be cleaning up much better. If you're looking to make your group value your effectiveness you should focus on the spells that boost your damage more than ac boosters.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 06:15 PM
Yeah, it was a sort of Geneva Convention between the DM and myself when I asked if the Fleshraker was available. His primary concern is that it would take a long to a adjudicate combat with Charge-Full Attack-Trip-Grapple-Pin-Poison-Damage and I was concerned that going along the lines of Venomfire Cheese would have him throwing the exact same thing at me.

I didn't see where Spikes lasted Hours/level. If this is true, than I will most certainly be using it. What should I take for my 7th level feat? I have mostly been working on my damage. My AC is only being brought up by Barkskin and that was mostly for my dog who has more AC than Sword and Board.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 07:36 PM
Hmm, Spikes is hours per level. I think I just figured out how to do useful amounts of damage.

Running: Greater Magic Fang, Spikes, and Barkskin.
Pre-combat: Shillelagh and Bull's Strength
First round: Entangling Staff and move in.
Second Round: Attack at +12 for 2d6+12 and start a grapple. Grapple Modifier +14. On success, opponent takes another 2d6 damage and is Entangled (-4 Dex, -2 Attack). Finish last attack at +8 for 1d6+7. Average damage is 36.5 if I hit with everything and succeed on the Grapple. Ohh, and make a DC Fortitude 15 or take another 2d8 and drop your weapons.

The Fighter is doing 1d6+8 and the Warlock is dealing 5d6+1. It seems like my Druid just might be marginally more useful than my Monk.

Thanks to everyone for giving advice!
-Eddie

mikej
2009-07-24, 08:02 PM
Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie
One group that I'm in on consists of a Rogue, Evoker Wizard, Sword and Board Fighter, Warlock, a Cleric who is focused on raise dead, and me as the Druid. I switched to Druid after I realized that my Monk was not going to be strong enough fast enough to keep up with them.

Wow, just wow. Heaven forbid if something that had fire resistance or immunity to sneak attack showed up. I'd ask the DM what he suspect of Druids in his game. Maybe he doesn't understand what areas they're effective in or is completely biased towards them. I can understand the Monk not performing well but a Druid should be pulling it's weight.


Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie
The players I play with are old fashioned; they believe that damage is the be all and end all.

I deal with the same type of players. With the major exception, that my DM completely favors melee, soo it's always a uphill battle if you're playing a caster. Although, brings back lovely memories. Of when my Half-Elf Druid out performed the free LA Centaur Fighter and Werewolf Monk. :smallbiggrin:


Originally Posted by Zergrusheddie
Yeah, it was a sort of Geneva Convention between the DM and myself when I asked if the Fleshraker was available. His primary concern is that it would take a long to a adjudicate combat with Charge-Full Attack-Trip-Grapple-Pin-Poison-Damage and I was concerned that going along the lines of Venomfire Cheese would have him throwing the exact same thing at me.

If this whole group values nothing but damage. His primary concern should be that you're having fun. I see nothing wrong with having the Fleshraker Dinosaur in this scenario. Just maybe not the Venomfire part. Or the other players maybe posting saying they're all ineffective.

Dr Bwaa
2009-07-24, 08:07 PM
Druids are fantastic, not just because they are so powerful, but just because they're fun. Let me talk for a while; I'll sum up at the end if you don't want the text wall.

You're going to outgrow that staff soon, and more importantly, you'll be getting large-size wildshape soon. You (it's been said before) absolutely need Natural Spell, because soon you'll never come out of wildshapes. At lvl 8, you can become a brown bear, or any of the other great suggestions these guys have already given for wtfpwnage Lage animals. If you haven't yet, I'd pick up Improved Natural attack to make you even more beastly. There's also a kind of armor in MIC I think that shifts with you into your wild shape for like a +1 or +2 bonus, so you can be a dire lion wearing medium armor... Damage should not be a problem AT ALL once you get Large size.

Someone mentioned the Shifter, which is from Masters of the Wild. I'm going to say that again. Masters of the Wild. If you don't have this book, get it now. It will put a wicked smile on your face. It's loaded with great spells and prestige classes, just generally loaded with awesome druid stuff (and Oozemaster/Legendary animals for fun! :smallbiggrin:) Let me talk about the Shifter for a minute.

The druid in a game I'm running is a shifter. He went into the class late, around level 12 I think. As a compromise for how awesome it is, I made him give up Natural Spell. Based on how your DM seems, you will not have to make this compromise. This is a good thing.

Shifter's main ability is called Greater Wild Shape. Doesn't it sound great already? First, it stacks with wild shape, so all your wild shapes are Great. Next, and coolest--if you start multiclassing into it now (or at least soon) you quickly outstrip the rate at which you gain size in wild shape, as Shifter's size categories ramp up really, really fast. Optimally, you'd want to start in shifter right at level six, or otherwise probably at level 9 so you don't have to wait for Large size.

The main difference between druid Wild Shape and Shifter Greater Wild Shape is what you can turn into. Druids can turn into animals (or, at higher levels, dire versions thereof). Good and all but... shifters can shape into abberations (rust monster to mess with your party, heh heh... or more practically, at level 11 go ahead and turn into a Beholder :smalleek:)... or elementals, or dragons and outsiders. Go to your MM. Look up some outsiders. Now look up some dragons. Yyyyyyyyeah. Just imagine: your party is level 13. Your evoker is still throwing around 10d6 fireballs. You turn into a Young Red Dragon with a free breath attack half as good as his best spell, start flying around the battlefield raining fire as your rampages below, and you start casting spells--you heal as well as the cleric (regenerate wounds), and your druid spells are Godlike if you know the right nasty ones. Drop a Slime Wave into the crowd, and watch as your 1d6 CON damage/round outstrips anything the evoker ever did (note that the green slime from slime wave also probably destroys all the equipment you hit with it, so even if your enemies live, they're completely incapacitated and you can fly-by attack them with breath attacks while you keep casting...). Want to freeze an army in its tracks? Go simple--[I]soften earth and stone, or Rock to Mud. If you're particularly nasty, wait two rounds, and then cast Mud to Rock. Kill/loot at your leisure. General destruction, battlefield control and violence with a huge AoE and very, very effective? Cast Spike Stones (living caltrops at level 4), or Quill Blast (this spell is incredible). For the endgame? You have GARGANTUAN wild shape at level 16 or so. With Improved Natural Attack... Oh boy.

Oh, I didn't mention--shifter allows you to choose what equipment melds with your body and what doesn't; anything you choose to keep out changes size to fit your new form. Let's say, at level 20, you have everything all worked out. Killer gear of all sorts, great armor, etc etc etc. But, you say, I can't use this +5 Vorpal Shillelagh in Dragon Form! No problem, I say. Wildshape into a Titan. Keep all your gear. GO TO TOWN. :smallbiggrin:

A last point before I stop this--you don't have to just be a combat druid. You can create havoc really anywhere you want to. Need gear? DM sends you on a stealth mission? No worries. Just Baleful Polymorph the Wizard into a mouse* and send him to receive the goods.

*Don't actually do this unless you're really ready to live with the consequences (probably more ooc than ic consequences): BP is permanent. :smallbiggrin:

SUMMARY
-Get Masters of the Wild if you don't have it yet. It is crazy good.
-Shifter (MotW) is a great class, with tons and tons of fun options. In fact, I'm going to go make one.
-Druids are great fun; you just have to think outside the box. You don't seem to have a problem with this, just the other people in your group do. They will wish they had kept a school of magic or two when you start showing them what they're missing. Don't feel constricted to just combat--you have a huge array of good abilities that can be put to use in a lot of different ways.

EDIT: added a couple of other good spells.

mikej
2009-07-24, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by ordhenry4000-Shifter (MotW) is a great class, with tons and tons of fun options. In fact, I'm going to go make one.

Wasn't that PrC modified into the 3.5 Master of Many Forms in the Complete Adventurer? Since I remember MotW was a 3.0 book.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-24, 08:26 PM
I have Masters of the Wild, but it is a 3.0 book and I have been worried about using it. I looked at the Shifter and I don't see it being completely useful as it is from a 3.0 book and it gives up spell casting and Animal Companion Progression. The Planar Shepherd was on my mind, but I did not want to try that level of "OMGBBQ!"

Master of Many Forms also leaves out Spells and Animal Companion. It also requires Alertness, which I do not have, and Endurance, which I do not want. I've built a Ranger Wildshape Variant MoMF and lead to a pretty decent damage dealer with Power Attck and Wart Troll. However, I remember reading that a Druid is still better because of Spells and an Animal Companion.

Dr Bwaa
2009-07-24, 09:04 PM
Wasn't that PrC modified into the 3.5 Master of Many Forms in the Complete Adventurer? Since I remember MotW was a 3.0 book.

I know MotW was 3.0, but I haven't seen Shifter anywhere else. MoMF might be the same thing-ish; it hadn't occurred to me. The other things that were updated when 3.5 came along kept the same names (Blighter, Frenzied Berserker, etc), so I didn't check.

@Eddie, In general, there's nothing wrong with 3.0 material. If it hasn't been updated for 3.5, it is assumed to still be legal 3.5 material. Apparently Shifter might have been updated though? =)

Quietus
2009-07-24, 09:15 PM
Well, I'm no druid expert - but with that I'll definitely have to disagree. Summons got alot better stuff than only wolves and if a druid focusses on summoning his summons can definitely raise hell for a long while.

If you focus on your summons, yes, you can get very good summons. But at level 1, your wolves are all you get - and your summons last ONE round.

By level 3, sure, you get crocodiles (1d8/1d12 +6) and hippogriffs (1d4+4, 1d4+4, 1d8+2), plus elementals. The party beatstick should still outdamage them, and have a much more significant attack bonus. And again.. your summons last three turns.

Level 5, you finally get dire wolves, and enough duration that summons are worth using. However, the chain-tripper's got his feats set up and has already locked down combat, and is probably still outdamaging the wolf, particularly if he's power attacking.



So if you focus on summons, yes, you can - for a very short period - contribute to the encounter. But honestly, you're better off tossing battlefield control (entangle, warp/wood shape, soften earth and stone, stone shape), and the occasional bit of extra damage via Produce Flame and possibly Poison. Any of these will contribute more than a full attack or three from a hippogriff, and if you're in the right setting, Stone Shape can do more than just damage/trip a foe, it can outright lock them down by shaping walls from uncut stone.

RandomNPC
2009-07-24, 09:26 PM
the wizards outshining you, then make a wizard exactly like his with the fireball and take energy substitution feats to do everything he can, except with fire.

spell compendium has a spell, Scintilating sphere, its the electric version of fireball, identical except it does shocky. no seriously. start with that.

get a metamagic feat as prereq for energy sub. then because of that feat every 2 levels houserule you mentioned, you could energy sub cold and acid. apparently sonic damage exists but doesn't work with energy sub. So grab sound lance from spell compendium if youve got the space.

then pick up energy admixture cold and acid. Just remember you need energy substitution before you take admixture with EACH element.

when you get to max 10d6 dice you could do an energy admixture scintilating sphere/acid or cold. dealing 10d6 shocky AND 10d6 acid or cold.

find something that enjoys shocky?(golems? Shocker lizards?) then energy sub cold/admixture acid.

I'm going to go build one of these now...

evil-frosty
2009-07-25, 01:06 AM
-snipped-

I love this, never heard of it till now. And now i am itching to play one. Quick question is there a Druids Handbook thread somewhere on these forums? If so can i have the link.

Contributing to the thread now, just wait a few levels and be creative and you will outshine the whole party. Maybe you can give little doses of using battlefield control and how a wizard should play and maybe they will see the brilliance of it.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-25, 03:18 AM
I love this, never heard of it till now. And now i am itching to play one. Quick question is there a Druids Handbook thread somewhere on these forums? If so can i have the link.

Contributing to the thread now, just wait a few levels and be creative and you will outshine the whole party. Maybe you can give little doses of using battlefield control and how a wizard should play and maybe they will see the brilliance of it.

The Druid's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=733400) is what I used when I first made my Druid. You lose casting and your Animal Companion progression though. Unfortunately, there is nothing that increases Spell and Wildshape other than the super duper borked Planar Shepherd.

Gnaeus
2009-07-25, 08:16 AM
Or
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0

Myrmex
2009-07-25, 03:50 PM
The Shifter from MotW is total crap. It lets you turn into non-animal creatures with wildshape. Greater Wildshape does not give you any of the Su or Sp abilities of the creature you turn into. So no dragon firebreath, no etherealness, nothing. I guess turning into a War Troll or something like that might be marginally worth it, but then, you are giving up spellcasting and your animal companion to advance in a class that gradually gives you what the polymorph spell does in a single casting.

If you really want to polymorph, take a level in Contemplative and a domain that gives access to Polymorph, a level in Loremaster and pick up a bunch of ranks in UMD, or have the rogue UMD it onto you.

The Shifter was crap in 3.0, too, given that polymorph & polymorph-like effects were much, much weaker. You did not gain additional attacks with the new form, didn't gain stuff like pounce or trip, or any of that. You could look like a pounce-asaurus, but you would get to make one bite or claw attack a round. No pouncing, no bite claw claw claw clawing. Nada. But that's 3.0. The Shifter is marginally more useful in 3.5, given that polymorph is so broken. But then, you might as well just stick with drood 20 and skip the class entirely.

Also note that is has been updated to Master of Many Forms, so it would be a bit of a rules breach to go with that class, anyway.

Take a look at the spell Creeping Cold. It lasts 5 rounds, and does a cumulative 1d6 damage per round, up to 5d6 in the last round. Thanks to the new and improved wording in the Spell Compendium, extending the spell to last 10 rounds nets you a total of 55d6 damage over one minute.

You might want to look at the feat Natural Bond (I think that's what it's called). It lets your Druid level count as 4 higher than it is, so you could get a tiger or something as a pet, and count as a higher level druid for it.

Milskidasith
2009-07-25, 03:53 PM
Wait, what happens if you persist creeping cold?

Myrmex
2009-07-25, 04:06 PM
Wait, what happens if you persist creeping cold?

You do a lot of damage.

Milskidasith
2009-07-25, 04:17 PM
Lemme see... with a 1 day duration, 10 rounds per minute, and 1440 minutes in a day, at the end of the duration you would have dealt 1440d6 cold damage...+1439d6,+1438d6, etc.

Myrmex
2009-07-25, 04:20 PM
Lemme see... with a 1 day duration, 10 rounds per minute, and 1440 minutes in a day, at the end of the duration you would have dealt 1440d6 cold damage...+1439d6,+1438d6, etc.

Huh, now if you could turn that damage into something useful, it might make a nice buff.

Milskidasith
2009-07-25, 04:24 PM
If you could get some way of healing from cold damage (is that possible?) it's like super vigor.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-25, 04:29 PM
We are discussing Druids, aren't we?

1. Be able to Persist Creeping Cold.
2. Take Energy Substitution (Electricity)
3. Reach Level 11 and Plant Wildshape.
4. Cast Enhance Wildshape (SC) to gain extraordinary qualities of your next Wildshape use.
5. Turn into a Shambling Mound.
6. Cast a Persistend Electric-Substituted Creeping Cold over yourself.
7. ???
8. Profit!

Myrmex
2009-07-25, 04:31 PM
We are discussing Druids, aren't we?

1. Be able to Persist Creeping Cold.
2. Take Energy Substitution (Electricity)
3. Reach Level 11 and Plant Wildshape.
4. Cast Enhance Wildshape (SC) to gain extraordinary qualities of your next Wildshape use.
5. Turn into a Shambling Mound.
6. Cast a Persistend Electric-Substituted Creeping Cold over yourself.
7. ???
8. Profit!


... There we go.

Milskidasith
2009-07-25, 04:44 PM
A persisted creeping cold is an 8th level spell,so you'd need to be higher than level 11 (or take more feats to lower the spell level).

Siosilvar
2009-07-25, 04:47 PM
Lemme see... with a 1 day duration, 10 rounds per minute, and 1440 minutes in a day, at the end of the duration you would have dealt 1440d6 cold damage...+1439d6,+1438d6, etc.

That should be over a million d6 of damage over the whole day.

Your math is off by a whole order of magnitude. The last round is 14400d6 damage. So more like 103,687,200d6 damage by the end of the day. Assuming my math is correct.

Forcecage, anyone?

woodenbandman
2009-07-25, 05:31 PM
Just don't let your wild shape timer run out. Ever. At the very most you get 20 hours -1 round, because eventually wildshape will wear off and you have to dismiss it. Unless you cant... in which case goodbye, because you're dead. Isn't there a spell that deletes a target's energy resistance for a while?

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-25, 05:40 PM
We are discussing Druids, aren't we?

1. Be able to Persist Creeping Cold.
2. Take Energy Substitution (Electricity)
3. Reach Level 11 and Plant Wildshape.
4. Cast Enhance Wildshape (SC) to gain extraordinary qualities of your next Wildshape use.
5. Turn into a Shambling Mound.
6. Cast a Persistend Electric-Substituted Creeping Cold over yourself.
7. ???
8. Profit!

Which monster is it that clones itself every time you take electricity damage? Is it the Shambling Mound? If so, this can get absurd. Fast.

Keld Denar
2009-07-25, 05:48 PM
Shambling Mounds don't clone themselves, but they do gain Con when you shock them. Thus, an Energy Sub Electric'd Creeping Cold would add an awful lot of Con, and a Persisted one would probably require scientific notation...

Seffbasilisk
2009-07-25, 05:55 PM
Since no one has addressed thier stupidity on power attack, I will.

Sure, power attack lowers your chance of hitting, but if you're focusing on melee with the staff (in forms that can weild it) power attacking 2H is actually very good. You've plenty of spells (IE: Greater Magic Weapon) to add to your to-hit, as well as strength bonus. If you need to, and can hopefully reslot, get a Heartseeking Amulet and 3/day make the melee attack as a touch attack.

You power attack for full (druid with 3/4th BaB), weild it 2H, and can slam for some pretty respectable damage (and put the sword and board-er to shame.)

You land one powerful blow like that, and end a major conflict...then have them try to tell you that Power Attack sucks.

or wait until you run into DR and the Sword and Board-er is useless.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-25, 06:34 PM
A persisted creeping cold is an 8th level spell,so you'd need to be higher than level 11 (or take more feats to lower the spell level).

Divine Metacheese works just fine for druids if you can get your hands on the required Turning attempts. The easy solution is to dip a level in Cleric w/ Planning domain and associated shenanigans. The harder solution is to stay full Druid but spend a feat on Axiomatic Bloodline or Celestial Bloodline from Dragon magazine, both of which add Dismissal to your spell list, then dip one level in Sacred Exorcist for Turning.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-25, 07:21 PM
If you were so inclined to do Persist Creeping Cold and Shambling Mound, you could do it a little earlier.
1 Extend Spell
3 Arcane Thesis: Creeping Cold
6 Natural Spell
9 Energy Substitution: Lightning
12 Assume Supernatural Ability: Immune to Electricity

The wonderfully broken Arcane Thesis has an Extended, Extended, Extended, Extended, Extended Energy Substitution: Lightning Creeping Cold take up a level 1 spell. Of course, as per the Wildshape nerf when the game went from 3.50 to 3.5 having a Constitution on the level of Pun-Pun means that your hitpoints do not change. Anyhoo:

I do not have Power Attack. I have sort of been feat starved at the moment considering there were too many awesome ones to take. So far, I have:

H: Lesser Augment Summonih (+2 instead of a +4; prerequisite for Augment Summoning)
1: Companion Spellbound (Share spells up to 30 feet)
3. Natural Bond (Was allowed to reduce the penalty of having an alternative Animal Companion.)
5: Natural Spell
7: Power Attack/Multi-Attack/I have no idea.

At 7th level, I will be using a Dire Wolf. My Riding Dog is maxed out with AC because his Attack and Trip were not that impressive and I figured I could show off to everyone that my Dog has about 20% more AC than the Fighter. I was thinking about Armor Proficiency: Light (1 feat for +4 AC seemed worthwhile), Improved Natural Attack: Bite (Changes average damage from 16.5 to 19, 1d8 to 2d6), and from here I am a little as what to do with his other two feats. Maybe Power Attack but I'm not sure if stacking +hits on an Animal is as easy as it is on a character.

Best of luck
-Eddie

Milskidasith
2009-07-25, 08:27 PM
Divine Metacheese works just fine for druids if you can get your hands on the required Turning attempts. The easy solution is to dip a level in Cleric w/ Planning domain and associated shenanigans. The harder solution is to stay full Druid but spend a feat on Axiomatic Bloodline or Celestial Bloodline from Dragon magazine, both of which add Dismissal to your spell list, then dip one level in Sacred Exorcist for Turning.

As I said, you would either have to take feats (divine metamagic is a feat, last I checked) to lower the level of the spell.

OracleofWuffing
2009-07-25, 10:23 PM
Which monster is it that clones itself every time you take electricity damage? Is it the Shambling Mound? If so, this can get absurd. Fast.
You're probably thinking of an Ochre Jelly. No Con or healing from the electricity damage, though. Each time you split, you halve your hit points, until you're at 10 or fewer hit points. So, yeah, if you want this to get absurd, you still need some way to keep building that up.

Yes I just threw a shambling mound and ten ochre jellies at my PCs earlier today, what of it?

Gwynfrid
2009-07-26, 10:10 AM
It looks like your are trying to buff your way to melee combat relevance - in effect you are running an attack bonus & damage race against your party's fighter. If that's you find the most fun to do, then that's fine.

Let me just offer an alternative: Try the exact opposite. For example, you can give yourself the challenge of proving to your group and your DM (heck, even to yourself) that battlefield control is a kick-ass tactic. That is not nearly as hard as you think: After all, surprising people who haven't even heard of Glitterdust can't be all that difficult, right ?

Commentators above offered excellent spell suggestions (except for Stone Shape - doesn't work that way, unless your DM is really in a good mood). May I add the sometimes overlooked Spike Growth : A nasty trap for a crowd of opponents on foot (invisible, large area you can tailor to the shape you like, does damage with no save, slows down victims). At lvl 4 you get Spike Stones (same + more damage + halves speed in area with no save).
As others have mentioned, this will make your evoker friend's job much easier, as opponents will have a harder time closing in to melee.

One of the greatest benefits of being a druid is flexibility: Not only you have a great variety of spells and powers, but you are the only one in the group who can spontaneously cast offensive spells. This means even if your spell selection happens to be wrong for the situation at hand, you can always do something useful with your summoned allies. In addition, you can also select said allies on the spot. Spellcasting opponent ? Send in the grappling leopard or bear. Flying foes ? Here come the hippogriffs. Adventure at sea ? Enter the sharks. You worry about your fireball-crazy colleague roasting your allies ? No problem, just call a bunch of Small Fire Elementals to the fray. They don't hit very hard, but whoever hits them with a natural weapon takes automatic fire damage, and might even catch fire.

And, as others also noted, summoning is great for battlefield control. Your summoned creatures, even if they do nothing else, act as walls between you and enemies, and/or provide flanking. Do take full advantage of cool abilities of animals, such as Pounce, Improved Grab, Rend. Generally, grappling is great way to take an enemy out of the fight at least for a while.

Overall, I think you can shine by shooting for a specialty others are neglecting. The only caveat is, if your DM only plays to the existing strengths of the group. If every fight is set on a wide, featureless stone floor, or has just one badass monster, or has only monsters stupid enough to fall to fireballs every time, then battlefield control will always be moot. In that case, I'd recommend you look for a more interesting group to play with.

Gnaeus
2009-07-26, 01:01 PM
The biggest downside to summoning is that it takes a lot of player time. Yes, the strategies noted can be effective. But one thing you can be sure of is that summoning 8 creatures so that you are taking 10 actions on your turn and making over 25 attack roles (if they are claw/claw/biters or something else with multiple attacks) is going to drag combats to a screaming halt and other players won't thank you for it.

If you don't know exactly what you plan to summon and have their stats ready then it will take even longer.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-27, 01:44 PM
Anyone have advice for feats that a Dire Wolf should take?

Mr.Moron
2009-07-27, 01:49 PM
But one thing you can be sure of is that summoning 8 creatures so that you are taking 10 actions on your turn and making over 25 attack roles (if they are claw/claw/biters or something else with multiple attacks) is going to drag combats to a screaming halt and other players won't thank you for it.


I've found this isn't a problem when I summon. I simply pre-roll the attacks and damage at each target. When their turns come up I say the results "21" "13" "28" "26" "30" in smilir fashion the DM tells me "Miss" "Miss" "Hit" Hit" Hit". I tend say the damage "10" "13" 14". Everything gets done rather quickly.

That said, I've never really gotten up to 8 creatures. 3-4 has usually been the upper limit.

Stats are kept on hand so I don't have to look the up at time of summoning. No muss, no fuss.

Eldariel
2009-07-27, 02:28 PM
Anyone have advice for feats that a Dire Wolf should take?

Eh, stuff like Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Vexing Flanker, Mage Slayer, Combat Reflexes, etc. Most efficient to usually make animals into chargers given that they don't qualify for Combat Expertise and lack reach to truly make efficient controllers without Animal Growth.

Gnaeus
2009-07-27, 02:45 PM
I've found this isn't a problem when I summon. I simply pre-roll the attacks and damage at each target. When their turns come up I say the results "21" "13" "28" "26" "30" in smilir fashion the DM tells me "Miss" "Miss" "Hit" Hit" Hit". I tend say the damage "10" "13" 14". Everything gets done rather quickly.

That said, I've never really gotten up to 8 creatures. 3-4 has usually been the upper limit.

Stats are kept on hand so I don't have to look the up at time of summoning. No muss, no fuss.

Cool. Thats really on the ball. I hope you don't mind if I say I don't think most people are that organized. Even if you are, you still wind up moving a lot of creatures around the map.

I have hit 8. Usually one big summon and 2 sets of 2-5. It doesn't happen often, but I'm not summoning focused.