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View Full Version : [3.5] About Level Adjustment, Racal Hit Die and ECL AKA I'm a noob



Cedrass
2009-07-23, 11:43 PM
First off, I know this will be a stupid question to a lot of you, but between the 3 DMs I played with in my gaming years, 2 of them had a really different way of handling "powerful races".

Some people tell me Racial Hit Die aren't calculated in the ECL, some tell me the Level Adjustment is just a level behind and you lose nothing more, other people tell me other stuff. I personally think I already know how all this works, but I'll ask without saying what I think is right.

How I think it all works is: Let's take the Hound Archon (link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#houndArchon))

It has 6 Outsider Hit Die, so with only this, one could roll up a 6th level character with no class level, or a 7th with one level in a Class.
It has, however, a level adjustment of +5, so that would bump the character to a 11th level character with no class level. 12th with a Class.
And the total XP for that character would be... I don't know, it's something I'm not quite sure how it works... Assuming the character has no class level (so it's a 11th level character) does he have the XP of a 11th level character, and need the XP of a 12th level character to gain his first class level?

Again, it is basic D&D for most of you, I know, but my groups have had a "gentlemen's contract" for so long we didn't really bother to ever try and understand it, but I think it would add to the quality of our games to open up options.

Thank you for your time, I will thank you the next time I get to play a Minotaur!!

Kylarra
2009-07-23, 11:58 PM
Assuming the character has no class level (so it's a 11th level character) does he have the XP of a 11th level character, and need the XP of a 12th level character to gain his first class level?
Yes, this.


Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm

erikun
2009-07-24, 01:32 AM
Right. A level 1 Hound Archon Fighter would be Effective Character Level 12.

6 HD, granting skills and feats as an outsider
+5 LA, which gives you nothing
1 Level of Fighter, which gives you the same as a first level fighter (except no 4x skill points)

Yes, Racial HD and LA make most unusual creatures unplayable. :smallsigh:

Cedrass
2009-07-24, 01:47 AM
Yes, Racial HD and LA make most unusual creatures unplayable. :smallsigh:

Yeah. I'll admit I was hoping I got something wrong... There goes my Minotaur :smallannoyed:

Now let's just hope Paizo realize those are boring/weak concept and removes them altogether from the game. Ah who am I kidding, they won't :smallannoyed:.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-24, 01:52 AM
If you want help nerfing things down to LA 0, I could help. (Eg: Minotaurs in my games have +2 Str and Con, -2 Int and Dex, Darkvision 60', a 1d6 Gore Attack and +4 to resist all Trip, Bull Rush, Overrun and Grapple attempts in addition to being Medium sized with a speed of 30'.).

erikun
2009-07-24, 01:53 AM
Try working with your DM about "homebrewing" an alternative, then. Taking a look at the Minotaur (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm), for example, I'd think that removing the racial HD would make a decent LA+2 race, possibly LA+3. You'd loose the Racial Hit Dice, Racial Skills, and Racial Feats (obviously) but would keep the rest on the "Minotaurs As Characters" stat block.

This doesn't always work, of course. Take a look at the Trumpet Archon from your earlier link - 14th level cleric spellcasting and several dozen abilities is far too much for a LA+8!

Cedrass
2009-07-24, 02:02 AM
Hehe, thanks guys, but I already thought about talking to my DM AKA "Come on dude, lemme play this! Make it weaker I don't care!" :smalltongue:

I was just expressing my hope that a boring mechanic would be removed in the "3.5 revision".

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-24, 02:05 AM
I think the problem with a lot of things is that they are designed to serve as enemies rather then as PC races, (hence the fact that some creatures which lack LA, eg Kobolds and Goblins, are weaker the the Core races), and WotC presumably thought adding class levels to monsters would get boring due to the players fighting the same sort of thing all the time while being time consuming for the DM.

JellyPooga
2009-07-24, 04:24 AM
The problem is not that Racial HD are inherently worse than Class HD, not that LA bites, it's that it's all factored into the assumption that all the PC's will be of roughly the same 'power-level'...If you want to play a Minotaur, then you're wanting to play a big brute of a character with shaggy hair and massive horns...that you also (for example) might want to play an expert Ranger, experienced as much in wilderness lore as you are in combat means that in order for you not to outchine the other players you have to skimp on the whole 'wilderness lore and combat' bit somewhat. I've always wanted to play in a game where players weren't all of the same ECL and those players playing a monstrous race actually got to epitomise those races...like a Minotaur that's better at combat than the human Fighter or a Mind-Flayer that's a better psionicist than the Elf Psion, etc.

Keld Denar
2009-07-24, 05:30 AM
The biggest thing working against Archons is the whole Greater Teleport at will thing. Thats good on its own, but in the hands of something like a Tele-pouncer, its even more viscious. If you removed that, you'd probably knock at least 2, if not 3, points off the Hound Archon's +5 LA. The superior stats count for about another +1 LA and the SR and misc SLAs count for another +1ish.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-24, 12:57 PM
Am I alone in thinking that a minotaur (or ogre, or similar creature) isn't all that bad of a deal? Where do y'all see it as falling on the CoDzilla/ToB/Fighter spectrum?

Cedrass
2009-07-24, 12:59 PM
Well, it's got a nice +8 bonus on Str, and Large size so he's a grapple-monster. Powerful charge and the Nat Armor is a nice touch too. With levels or barbarian, I'd say he can get stronger than any character from ToB. (Given the right feats and all the shnizzle of course)

tyckspoon
2009-07-24, 05:51 PM
Well, it's got a nice +8 bonus on Str, and Large size so he's a grapple-monster. Powerful charge and the Nat Armor is a nice touch too. With levels or barbarian, I'd say he can get stronger than any character from ToB. (Given the right feats and all the shnizzle of course)

Monstrous characters can do alright if you want a straight up damage machine (Minotaur in particular, as Monstrous Humanoid is a full BAB Type.) But then, standard races are pretty good at that too- Fighter and Barbarian builds can already do more damage than Tome of Battle classes. Compare something like a Goliath Barbarian with the Mountain Rage substitution level- when he rages, he's Large with modifiers (racial + rage) of +10 Strength and +6 Con. He gets d12s for all his levels instead of splitting value with d8's, which is a full 6 more HP for the maxed first level and an average 2 more HP for each HD after that (equivalent value +4 Con in HP- the ogre and minotaur only have a 2 Con edge on the Goliath to start with, so in raw HP the PC-class Barbarian is up +2 Con.) His BAB is better. He's got as many or more feats as the monstrous characters, and he has the option of switching some of his levels for Fighter or other classes if he needs more feats. Notably, the Goliath can have started on his favored PrC selection at a point where the monster character is only starting to look at base classes (although careful selection of feats can have the monster character ready to step right into a PrC as well- especially the Minotaur, with BAB +6.) If LA Buyoff is in play, the Goliath can shed his LA at 3rd level and spend the rest of his career advancing almost identically to a character that was originally LA 0; the ogre and minotaur won't have that opportunity until well into the teens.