Ok.... here's a thought..... ** potential spoiler **

[Corwin Weber]

I don't know if this has occurred to anybody else... given this crowd, probably. :grin: But let's do a little thought experiment....

We know Belkar is going to die. Waffle all you like, he's 'not long for this world' and 'going to draw his last breath' and the like. But he's a main character. While the Giant has been perfectly willing to remove major characters (see: Shojo and Miko) from the storyline entirely before.... he's never done this with a main character, even when it would have entirely made sense for him to do so. (See: V.) I think it's a pretty safe bet that Belkar isn't going away entirely..... and that seems like a fairly common suspicion. I'm not crazy about undead Belkar. Too trite. But.....

Belkar dies somehow, the party doesn't raise him......



.....and he gets recruited by the IFCC?

They've drafted an imp, after all..... and Belkar is even more of a 'go-getter' than Quarr is. He'd be at least a manes, so not exactly powerless.... and who knows, they might be able to pull some strings so that he retains his personality, skills and even appearance. He knows about the gates, and the fact that he's an evil little bastard would make him even more likely to work with them, especially since they don't seem to like Xykon much either. They'd be entirely likely to let him work out his grudges against Xykon, the Order, and the Linear Guild as long as it suited their purposes.... and from the looks of things, it would. (I suspect they're having a bit of buyer's remorse with Nale. He's not the evil genius I suspect they thought he was going to be....)

[Arkenputtyknife]

Have you considered the possibility that, at some point, the comic is going to end?

[Corwin Weber]

Have you considered the possibility that, at some point, the comic is going to end?

Yes, but that'll be long after Belkar's death. Everything points to that being imminent.... not the final climax of the comic.

[Turkish Delight]

I doubt the Giant will make him into a mane or other lowly fiend. Just as the depiction of Heaven was probably rather out of wack with what the traditional AD&D Heaven is supposed to be like, I'd guess that if Belkar shows up in Hell (well...the Abyss) he'll still be Belkar. Just a dead Belkar in the Abyss.

After all, shouldn't Roy himself have become some kind of archon or other upper planar being rather than just being dead? Not to speak of his family? It isn't just lower planar souls that lose their mortal forms, as far as I can remember.

Otherwise, though, an interesting idea.

[TheLibrarian]

Rather unrelated to this topic, but I have this mental image of the Giant sitting back and laughing every time a new theory thread shows up "Dance puppets dance"

[Arkenputtyknife]

Yes, but that'll be long after Belkar's death. Everything points to that being imminent.... not the final climax of the comic.
Really? As I recall, we were given notice that Belkar would die within a year of the prophecy. I'm not entirely sure how much of that year has passed, but it does not appear to have been enough to support an unequivocal claim that Belkar's death is “imminent”. On the other hand, dealing with the Snarl—which could well be the final climax of the comic—is rapidly becoming a matter of urgency. It would not surprise me at all if the two were connected.

[Corwin Weber]

Really? As I recall, we were given notice that Belkar would die within a year of the prophecy. I'm not entirely sure how much of that year has passed, but it does not appear to have been enough to support an unequivocal claim that Belkar's death is “imminent”. On the other hand, dealing with the Snarl—which could well be the final climax of the comic—is rapidly becoming a matter of urgency. It would not surprise me at all if the two were connected.

In comic time Belkar has a few weeks. Roy mentioned it in the last comic comic before last. (** edit - oops **)

** second edit **


I doubt the Giant will make him into a mane or other lowly fiend. Just as the depiction of Heaven was probably rather out of wack with what the traditional AD&D Heaven is supposed to be like, I'd guess that if Belkar shows up in Hell (well...the Abyss) he'll still be Belkar. Just a dead Belkar in the Abyss.

After all, shouldn't Roy himself have become some kind of archon or other upper planar being rather than just being dead? Not to speak of his family? It isn't just lower planar souls that lose their mortal forms, as far as I can remember.

Otherwise, though, an interesting idea.

I don't quite remember, but I thought not all petitioners became archons. I thought that was one of the differences between Heaven and Hell in D&D.... in Heaven you're a petitioner, and if you don't go any higher then you don't go any higher. In Hell, all petitioners become manes and then move higher up if they aren't destroyed. They need fodder for the Blood War if nothing else.

But as you mentioned..... Giant has a tendency to houserule these things when the story needs it.

[Souhiro]

Well, it's just a prophecy.

If anybody tells Belkar about it, then Belkar will kill the oracle, then Tiamat, then kill again the resurrected oracle, then will sleep with The Three Fates (The parcae, Moirae...) and change his destiny, go back to kill again the newly resurrected oracle and his reptilian clerics, and will scream loudly

"I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAAAAAAAAAR"

Then, will re-join the Sacred Order of Stick and keep kicking ass

[Snake-Aes]

We know Belkar is going to die. Waffle all you like, he's 'not long for this world' and 'going to draw his last breath' and the like. But he's a main character. While the Giant has been perfectly willing to remove major characters (see: Shojo and Miko) from the storyline entirely before.... he's never done this with a main character, even when it would have entirely made sense for him to do so.

**** happens. Player Shields don't exist.
Sometimes, BECAUSE no main character got scrubbed away, that makes it enough of a reason to make it.

[RMS Oceanic]

Really? As I recall, we were given notice that Belkar would die within a year of the prophecy. I'm not entirely sure how much of that year has passed, but it does not appear to have been enough to support an unequivocal claim that Belkar's death is “imminent”. On the other hand, dealing with the Snarl—which could well be the final climax of the comic—is rapidly becoming a matter of urgency. It would not surprise me at all if the two were connected.

"Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year."

It's not that he has a year to live, he has however much is left in this year left to live, and maybe less.

Also, in #666, Roy estimates the end of the year as seven weeks away, so the conclusion is that the Oracle's prophecy will come true within seven weeks.

[pflare]

Yes, but that'll be long after Belkar's death. Everything points to that being imminent.... not the final climax of the comic.

I disagree. While I agree that Belkar's death won't be the big climax (that's reserved for another battle with Xykon or possibly the Snarl), I believe that Belkar will be around for the rest of the run and will only die at or near the end. There simply won't be enough time for him to return in any way.

[factotum]

And I disagree with your disagreement! :smallbiggrin:

We have some idea of what still has to happen. Xykon has to find his phylactery and get to Girard's Gate, where there'll likely be some sort of big run-in with the Order--then they all have to get back over to the Eastern Continent for the final showdown at Kraagor's Gate. I just don't think that's all going to happen in just 7 weeks of in-comic time, and that's not including the sidequest about Haley's father that's bound to come up sometime while they're on the Western Continent.

[Moriato]

In comic time Belkar has a few weeks. Roy mentioned it in the last comic comic before last. (** edit - oops **)



Roy isn't estimating the time of Belkar's death, he's estimating how long he thinks it will take them to beat Xykon. After that, it doesn't matter what happens.

[OITS]

Welcome to the board, Corwin :P


Anyway, as I know (somebody quoted it in one of the fifty threads who try to deal with this topic) the Giant himself said once that Belkar, being a main character of the OotS, will always be a part of the story, even if he is splitting up, dying or whatever. So it could be, that:

a) the comic ends before/the same time he dies
b) he will die and we will see him in his afterlive
c) he may return undead - he will draw his last breath before his birthday but isn't long for this world; so 1) he will die soon and 2) he may be coming back undead to be destroyed at the end of the comic (even if it goes on for 4 in-game-years, he would not be long for this world)
d) something that comes/came to the mind of the giant of storytelling to shock and surprise us all

[Morgan Wick]

A lot can happen in seven weeks. For one thing, Roy can win his bet with Haley.

[FujinAkari]

Roy isn't estimating the time of Belkar's death, he's estimating how long he thinks it will take them to beat Xykon. After that, it doesn't matter what happens.

No he isn't, reread the comic. He is saying they have to keep Belkar in check for seven weeks, after that it won't matter anymore. He says this, forgetting that Haley -did- get affected by the memory charm and, when she misinterprets what he said, he rolls with it rather than telling him Belkar's "secret" prophesy.

[Demiurge]

I don't quite remember, but I thought not all petitioners became archons. I thought that was one of the differences between Heaven and Hell in D&D.... in Heaven you're a petitioner, and if you don't go any higher then you don't go any higher. In Hell, all petitioners become manes and then move higher up if they aren't destroyed. They need fodder for the Blood War if nothing else.

Not all petitioners to the lower planes are turned into manes/lemures, they still need tortured souls to sprinkle around the plane to give it an appropriately hellish effect.

[Assassin89]

Not all petitioners to the lower planes are turned into manes/lemures, they still need tortured souls to sprinkle around the plane to give it an appropriately hellish effect.

But with Belkar, the torturer may become the tortured if Belkar becomes one of the tortured souls.

[Moriato]

No he isn't, reread the comic. He is saying they have to keep Belkar in check for seven weeks, after that it won't matter anymore. He says this, forgetting that Haley -did- get affected by the memory charm and, when she misinterprets what he said, he rolls with it rather than telling him Belkar's "secret" prophesy.

I don't think so. There's no hesitation on Roy's part, no look on his face, nothing to say he caught himself saying something he shouldn't have. It seems like he meant exactly what Haley thought he meant, that in seven weeks he believes their mission will be over, and it doesn't matter what Belkar does after that.

[Kish]

I don't think so. There's no hesitation on Roy's part, no look on his face, nothing to say he caught himself saying something he shouldn't have. It seems like he meant exactly what Haley thought he meant, that in seven weeks he believes their mission will be over, and it doesn't matter what Belkar does after that.
Look at that last clause of yours.

It doesn't matter what Belkar does after that?

Roy doesn't care what Belkar does once Xykon is dead?

No. Roy knows Belkar will be dead within seven weeks. Roy hopes, probably rather over-optimistically, that the mission will be over and Xykon destroyed by then.

[Moriato]

Look at that last clause of yours.

It doesn't matter what Belkar does after that?

Roy doesn't care what Belkar does once Xykon is dead?




Yes. I'm sure Roy has every intention of dismissing Belkar once the mission is over, and never associating with him again. Or possibly having Belkar thrown in jail or punished in some other way, or just leaving him, knowing that Belkar doesn't have much longer to live anyway.

[Snake-Aes]

Yes. I'm sure Roy has every intention of dismissing Belkar once the mission is over, and never associating with him again. Or possibly having Belkar thrown in jail or punished in some other way, or just leaving him, knowing that Belkar doesn't have much longer to live anyway.

Roy already said himself he'd rather deal with Belkar on a constant basis than leaving him in the hands of npcs, based on the fact that yes, he is one of the very rare people in the world that can keep him leashed.
Roy will not let go of Belkar until Belkar's turned into a chunky salsa bottle.

[Tenebrais]

Yes. I'm sure Roy has every intention of dismissing Belkar once the mission is over, and never associating with him again. Or possibly having Belkar thrown in jail or punished in some other way, or just leaving him, knowing that Belkar doesn't have much longer to live anyway.

The sole reason Roy was allowed to get away with associating with Belkar at all is that he keeps an eye on him. Letting him loose when he's no longer needed would be a distinctly Evil act - and this time he knows that getting back into Celestia could depend on that.

[Jagos]

The sole reason Roy was allowed to get away with associating with Belkar at all is that he keeps an eye on him. Letting him loose when he's no longer needed would be a distinctly Evil act - and this time he knows that getting back into Celestia could depend on that.

But there's seven weeks in the year. After that he's the problem of the bony guy with the scythe. :)

[Moriato]

Roy already said himself he'd rather deal with Belkar on a constant basis than leaving him in the hands of npcs, based on the fact that yes, he is one of the very rare people in the world that can keep him leashed.
Roy will not let go of Belkar until Belkar's turned into a chunky salsa bottle.

I'll grant you that, but I would imagine that what's going through roy's head are some of the same things people here are speculating about. The oracle's predictions are vague at best so I doubt Roy's thinking "Oh hey, Belkar will die and stay dead forever and not become some sort of undead or something else that doesn't breathe, and we'll never have to deal with him again after that". I know that Roy knows Belkar's prophecy and all that, but I just don't think that the "seven weeks" comment was a countdown to the end of the year, but a countdown to what Roy thinks will be the end of the mission.

[Morthis]

Yes. I'm sure Roy has every intention of dismissing Belkar once the mission is over, and never associating with him again. Or possibly having Belkar thrown in jail or punished in some other way, or just leaving him, knowing that Belkar doesn't have much longer to live anyway.

Nothing points to that at all. As others have mentioned, Roy feels responsible for keeping Belkar under control, and his afterlife may depend on this.

Also, everybody besides Roy joined that party for reasons other than beating Xykon. There's no reason to assume the party will break up when they do defeat him (they certainly didn't the first time they thought they beat him).

[Kish]

The oracle's predictions are vague at best
No.

Don't confuse, "People on the forums massively overcomplicate the Oracle's predictions, especially the ones who don't want Belkar to die and not come back," with "the Oracle's predictions in the actual comic are vague." Xykon killed Fyron, Xykon is in his throne room, Xykon is in the Dungeon of Dorukan, Haley got her voice back by trusting Nale, Belkar killed the Oracle with his very own daggers, Xykon will be within a thousand feet of Girard's Gate next--even if you personally consider Haley and Vaarsuvius' predictions to be "vague*," the general trend is for extreme clarity and simplicity. And there is no way around the fact that Roy said that soon Belkar will be a concern only for the Grim Reaper.

*And of course, one prediction was obnoxious in another way, but "in his throne room," however obnoxious it was, was anything but vague.

[Morthis]

I'll grant you that, but I would imagine that what's going through roy's head are some of the same things people here are speculating about. The oracle's predictions are vague at best so I doubt Roy's thinking "Oh hey, Belkar will die and stay dead forever and not become some sort of undead or something else that doesn't breathe, and we'll never have to deal with him again after that". I know that Roy knows Belkar's prophecy and all that, but I just don't think that the "seven weeks" comment was a countdown to the end of the year, but a countdown to what Roy thinks will be the end of the mission.

I think that's a far stretch considering the other view makes much more sense. Roy has absolutely no way to even begin to predict how long the mission will last, but he can easily tell when the year will end.

Also, people on this forum assume Belkar won't stay dead because we know this is a comic. This comic focuses on humor, and it seems hard to believe that one of the funnier characters in the strip would simply be killed off just like that. Furthermore, we know Rich can do whatever he wants with the storyline to keep Belkar in it in some other form. We know he can do this because he writes the comic and has complete control over it. Roy does not know any of this, he has absolutely no reason to assume Belkar is guaranteed to return.

[Rev. George]

But there's seven weeks in the year. After that he's the problem of the bony guy with the scythe. :)

Here's a good question- We know there are at least 2 calendars http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html

Ignoring the possibility of a third (draconic?) calendar, which one does the oracle use?

Because that could extend the 7 weeks considerably...

-+G

[Moriato]

Roy does not know any of this, he has absolutely no reason to assume Belkar is guaranteed to return.

Except that it means trusting that the oracle's prophesy is literal. Roy is smarter than that.

[Kish]

Way to frame the question. I could say that Roy isn't going to hunt for ways to evade the Oracle's prediction of Belkar's death because he's smarter than that.

[Snake-Aes]

I'll grant you that, but I would imagine that what's going through roy's head are some of the same things people here are speculating about. The oracle's predictions are vague at best so I doubt Roy's thinking "Oh hey, Belkar will die and stay dead forever and not become some sort of undead or something else that doesn't breathe, and we'll never have to deal with him again after that". I know that Roy knows Belkar's prophecy and all that, but I just don't think that the "seven weeks" comment was a countdown to the end of the year, but a countdown to what Roy thinks will be the end of the mission.

The oracle also mentioned belkar would better enjoy his last birthday cake too. Is roy aware of that?

[Moriato]

The oracle also mentioned belkar would better enjoy his last birthday cake too. Is roy aware of that?

I don't think so, no. The oracle didn't repeat that part to "ghost Roy"

[rewinn]

Here's a good question- We know there are at least 2 calendars http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html

Ignoring the possibility of a third (draconic?) calendar, which one does the oracle use?

Because that could extend the 7 weeks considerably...

-+GOy, good point! It would be possible for the Oracle to be using any calendar at all, but it seems to me that the Oracle would most likely be using the same calendar that Roy thinks in. While the Oracle is happy to mess with his more annoying customers, a calendar trick would be just too easy.

I suggest a more likely way that Belkar will die-yet-remain-involved is the IFCC requisitions his soul for nefarious purposes, especially bedevilling V. You know he'd volunteer for that!

[Morthis]

Except that it means trusting that the oracle's prophesy is literal. Roy is smarter than that.

Yes clearly when an oracle whose words are always true tells you something the natural thing is to assume the exact opposite.

The oracle is a smartass, but he has not deliberately worded something to be that deceptive in the past. Roy has absolutely no reason to believe what he is saying is not true. You're projecting that on Roy because we know Belkar will likely not disappear just like that.

Lastly, if Roy actually believed Belkar wasn't going to die, he would not make statements like "Run out the clock" (regarding how to keep Belkar in check) or suggesting that soon the Belkar will be the grim reaper's problem. Those statements suggest what seems to be the obvious answer in the first place, Roy believes the prophecy as is.