The IFCC seem to get along remarkably well. *spoiler, I guess*

[Turkish Delight]

I know that it's their job. They exist to demonstrate that fiends whose views on the law/neutrality/chaos axis do not align can work together to make the world a darker, viler place.

And yet they do represent three races which have been clawing and murdering and slaughtering each other en masse from long before mortals were even around. The Devil and the Demon especially should find each other's presence vaguely intolerable, the fact that the one can't reach over and tear out the other's throat like a horrible itch they have to restrain themselves from scratching in the name of the Greater Evil. In it's own way, from a certain perspective, the alliance is every bit as unnatural as an Archon and a Pit Fiend teaming up to advance the cause of Law.

And yet no sign of that here. The three almost seem like a hive mind, one following up what the others have to say without a hitch or any sign of internal dissension. Even deciding which IFCC member represents which alignment is enough to spark massive threads, because the three behave almost exactly the same.

I'm wondering, though, if it will continue to be like that. If the plans of the IFCC start to unravel in some way, or if they're put under sufficient pressure, will we see fractures start to form between the currently interchangeable forces of darkness?

[Corwin Weber]

Evil generally turns on itself eventually. Given time, they'll start backstabbing each other for reasons entirely unrelated to the blood war.

[Souhiro]

Evil generally turns on itself eventually. Given time, they'll start backstabbing each other for reasons entirely unrelated to the blood war.

Yes, but don't forget that OOTS is a webcomic about anti-stereotypes.

They signed a contract with Vaarsuvius (like a Lawful devil would do) but they made it verbal, no words written. "We'll acord that facts later", that disrespect for writing all the rules is more of chaotic line of tought.

I think that Vaarsuvius one and only chance is to make the IFCC turn of each other, but it would be HARD.

by the way... what IFCC means?

[Porthos]

what IFCC means?

Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0632.html)

[Turkish Delight]

I think that Vaarsuvius one and only chance is to make the IFCC turn of each other, but it would be HARD.

by the way... what IFCC means?

But it would seem to be a natural plot development, assuming that each of the three fiends gets to personally control V for a given amount of time while V is still living. If the three fiends happen to be at cross purposes by that point in time, all sorts of fun could ensue.

Incidentally, I'm not saying the three are likely to start tearing into each other because of the lingering influence of the Blood War. I'm saying that we've got a Neutral Evil daemon, a Chaotic Evil demon and a Lawful Evil devil. To date, there has been almost nothing to suggest any rifts within the group; if they had all been designated to be devils or demons or daemons, the comic wouldn't read much differently. But as it stands, deep down they aren't the same...or shouldn't be...and whatever pretenses of unity they have here, those three races don't think alike and often have widely differing methods and goals. This 'united front of evil' is grotesquely unnatural and I'm wondering if the Giant will ever delve into that, either as a major plot point or at least offering hints of just why these three races have been murdering each other nearly from the moment of creation.

[Ghostwheel]

Evil generally turns on itself eventually. Given time, they'll start backstabbing each other for reasons entirely unrelated to the blood war.

With the way the Giant writes, this is problematic. The Order of the Stick, thus far, always seem to succeed or fail on their own merits. The backstabbing, if it comes, will be in the fiend's assigning blame when their plans fail. :smallcool:

[RMS Oceanic]

There is an article in the gaming section, written by Rich himself, which contains the anecdote of two evil overlords working together because they were childhood friends, and implicitly trusted each other.

I suspect the IFCC have similar levels of trust. I believe their plans will fail in spite of their best efforts, not because of the "self destructive evil" cliche.

[Souhiro]

Well, the main and ultimate objetive of an Lawful Evil character is to rule the world

The main and ultimate objetive of an Chaotic Evil character is to destroy the world

And the main and ultimate objetive of a Neutral Evil character is personal gain, and don't give a f?ck about everyother.


But the IFCC seems to have another objetive: to make a Blood War between Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good.

[Turkish Delight]

There is an article in the gaming section, written by Rich himself, which contains the anecdote of two evil overlords working together because they were childhood friends, and implicitly trusted each other.

I suspect the IFCC have similar levels of trust.

Why should they? These aren't long lost childhood friends who grow up and work together in a spirit of mutual trust and friendship. The three of them...or at least the Devil and the Demon...represent races which have devoted endless millenia to eradicating each other completely, accepting nothing less than absolute genocide of the other as an acceptable outcome. Mutual hatred is practically in their bones.

It isn't cliche to show growing differences or even the outright collapse of the 'alliance' in such a circumstance. In fact, it would seem downright absurd to have them go to the end with the same unflappable hive mind approach they've demonstrated to date.

[Parra]

well it is commonly thought that the IFCC's general plan is to take control of V at a critical moment and thus take control of the gate.

I see it as quite possible that, at least intially, their control of the gate will be controlled via their control of V.

Since each of the IFCC gets individual control over V for a set time, whats to stop which ever is first in control simply turning V (and hence the Snarl) on the other 2 members?

[RMS Oceanic]

Why should they? These aren't long lost childhood friends who grow up and work together in a spirit of mutual trust and friendship. The three of them...or at least the Devil and the Demon...represent races which have devoted endless millenia to eradicating each other completely, accepting nothing less than absolute genocide of the other as an acceptable outcome. Mutual hatred is practically in their bones.

It isn't cliche to show growing differences or even the outright collapse of the 'alliance' in such a circumstance. In fact, it would seem downright absurd to have them go to the end with the same unflappable hive mind approach they've demonstrated to date.

I'm just saying if that article is Rich's view on evil cooperation, then I don't see the point in the IFCC failing just because they decide to backstab each other.

[Morquard]

But the IFCC seems to have another objetive: to make a Blood War between Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good.
I didn't understand it like that.
They want to end or at least pause the Blood War, unite the evil races under one banner, destroy the upper (good) planes and all those good creatures living there.

I don't think they have a master plan after that, and I think they pretty much know that after the good guys are gone, they will resume the Blood War to determine if they'll ultimately rule or destroy the world.

[Turkish Delight]

I'm just saying if that article is Rich's view on evil cooperation, then I don't see the point in the IFCC failing just because they decide to backstab each other.

Well, yeah, but that's only one possible form of evil cooperation. The comic already has a handful of potential intra-evil conflicts going; between Xykon and Redcloak in regards to what the gate and the Snarl are to be used for, or between Sabine and Nale in regards to keeping the latter fully informed about why Sabine is there and who she works for.

I don't think the Giant is necessarily against backstabbing amongst Team Evil. It just needs to be justified and avoid being cheesy. If things continue as they are now, and then out of the blue one of the three fiends betrays the other two, it'll have been poorly handled because right now they're pretty much marching in lockstep.

But if we start seeing some friction between them on some subject...if it starts becoming clear which one is the devil, which is the demon, and so forth...then things might get more complicated. And it would make perfect sense, given the rather unstable set-up they've involved themselves in.

[Tingel]

But the IFCC seems to have another objetive: to make a Blood War between Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good.
What are you basing this on?

I don't think the IFCC is stupid enough to believe such a thing would be possible. After all, Good does not work the same way as Evil. Eventually Good always heads towards peace and forgiveness - it simply does not produce the amount of hate and revenge necessary to keep such a conflict among itself going, or even to let it start.

[Snake-Aes]

Why should they? These aren't long lost childhood friends who grow up and work together in a spirit of mutual trust and friendship. The three of them...or at least the Devil and the Demon...represent races which have devoted endless millenia to eradicating each other completely, accepting nothing less than absolute genocide of the other as an acceptable outcome. Mutual hatred is practically in their bones.

It isn't cliche to show growing differences or even the outright collapse of the 'alliance' in such a circumstance. In fact, it would seem downright absurd to have them go to the end with the same unflappable hive mind approach they've demonstrated to date.
The very fact they were willing to make the IFCC kinda points you that they are not your everyday archfiend.

[Jackson]

I'm not sure why this should be any truer of the IFCC than, say, The Order of the Stick, where all the members place differently on the Good-Evil axis as well as on the Lawful-Chaotic axis, but which has remained remarkably backstab-free for the entirety of the comic. True, the IFCC show a greater level of group cohesion, in the handful of comics we've seen them, than the OoTS, but so far we've only really seen them in pitch mode.

In any case, given that their whole point and mission statement is to remove the pointless internecine conflict from the Lower Planes so as to allow them to achieve their goals, it shouldn't be a surprise that, thus far, the IFCC has been shown to be remarkably free of it. It doesn't mean that they'll remain that way forever, but it doesn't mean that they won't, either. I think the idea, as others in the thread have been suggesting, is to try and challenge your (and by 'your' I just mean somebody who plays DnD) way of thinking about alignment, which is for obvious reasons deep-rooted and somewhat kneejerk.

And while I don't think they have as their goal bringing about an honest-to-gods Blood War among the forces of good, their comments in #668 make it clear that they want to cause as much pointless internal conflict among the forces of good as possible. So it's only an exaggeration to say that they want to cause a Blood War, rather than an outright falsehood or inaccuracy.

[pflare]

Maybe but it would be out of character for them. Team Evil has all the unstable alliances in the comic. They're the team that bickers, double-crosses, and decieves. THe IFCC are more matermind-esque. They are calm cool and collected villians with a master plan. I think their downfall will be due to a failure in their plan, perhaps people/characters won't act the way they expect them to.

[Optimystik]

But the IFCC seems to have another objetive: to make a Blood War between Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Chaotic Good.

They don't have to; there are enough fiends in the three lower planes that, combined, they could utterly obliterate the heavens.

Of course, faced with such overwhelming force, the Inevitables and Slaadi might enlist with the Celestials; the Inevitables to enforce the Pact Primeval (the devils promised to destroy all the demons, so siding with them would be a clear violation), and the Slaadi to keep any one side from winning so that there is still conflict in the cosmos. True bedlam would then ensue, and the Material Plane would probably be cracked open like an egg in an alligator's jaws.


Since each of the IFCC gets individual control over V for a set time, whats to stop which ever is first in control simply turning V (and hence the Snarl) on the other 2 members?

How would controlling V give them control of the Snarl? As far as we know, only Redcloak knows how to do anything with the gates. All the IFCC's knowledge of the Snarl came from Sabine by way of not-Elan.

[Turkish Delight]

They don't have to; there are enough fiends in the three lower planes that, combined, they could utterly obliterate the heavens.

Meh. I've always disliked that idea; it seems to suggest Good only really survives because Evil is too distracted to pounce on it like a wolf on a kitten. The whole thing seems less 'Heroic Fantasy' and more 'Cthulu'. Certainly the strength of the Upper Planes should be given more credit than that.

But, of course, a united front of fiendishness would still be very, very bad news for people uninterested in being killed. As such, the IFCC seems like it would pose a major threat other parties would be working to derail. Not that I expect to see anything of the sort; we've got a complex enough plot as it is without any more outside intervention.

[Optimystik]

Meh. I've always disliked that idea; it seems to suggest Good only really survives because Evil is too distracted to pounce on it like a wolf on a kitten. The whole thing seems less 'Heroic Fantasy' and more 'Cthulu'. Certainly the strength of the Upper Planes should be given more credit than that.

But it's a logical one nonetheless. Even with the Devils' assistance, keeping the Demons in check is a full-time job for the Upper Planes; there are just that many of them down there. If the Celestials didn't need their help, there would have been no need to allow the creation of Devils or the Hells in the first place. So naturally, Hell joining forces with the Abyss would tip the balance pretty decisively.

But there's a flipside to that coin; namely, after the heavens are annihilated, there'd be nothing to stop the Demons from destroying the Devils either. As embodiments of Chaotic Evil, their betrayal is a foregone conclusion, and no contract or other agreement with Hell will keep them in check. The best the Devils could hope for is succeeding to vanquish the Heavens before being destroyed themselves; I really don't see how the IFCC's plan could go any other way in the long run.

[Jaltum]

I've always disliked that idea; it seems to suggest Good only really survives because Evil is too distracted to pounce on it like a wolf on a kitten. The whole thing seems less 'Heroic Fantasy' and more 'Cthulu'. Certainly the strength of the Upper Planes should be given more credit than that.

I dunno. I always took as more of "It may seem sometimes that Evil is stronger and easier than Good, but it's self-defeating and self-limiting."

[Erts]

The reason that the IFCC probably won't backstab each other is because they have realized "hey, wait, whenever we try to get together and take over the multiverse, the thing that gets in the way is backstabbing!"
They realize that if they just stay the course, then the payoff will be much bigger than if they backstab immediately.

[Thrax]

I understand the fact that in DnD devils and demons are in war, but look at it from another point. I have always considered devils and demons of traditional demonology to be in league, and considered devils a sort of a ruling caste over the demons. The demons just destroy everything on their way, while devils rule them and manipulate them to do what they want. If the DnD demons and devils could go that way, that is maybe the way they could destroy Heavens together and stay unified.

[Snake-Aes]

Plus, we REALLY are talking about exceptions here. With the billions of suicidal fiends battling for millenia, THREE archfiends stopping and realizing they could do more (http://http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) is sure something new.

[Optimystik]

I understand the fact that in DnD devils and demons are in war, but look at it from another point. I have always considered devils and demons of traditional demonology to be in league, and considered devils a sort of a ruling caste over the demons. The demons just destroy everything on their way, while devils rule them and manipulate them to do what they want. If the DnD demons and devils could go that way, that is maybe the way they could destroy Heavens together and stay unified.

It's not impossible, but in D&D, Devils and Demons fight each other because that is what Devils were designed to do. FC2 lays out the whole creation story (including Asmodeus' origins as an archangel) and the reasons behind the creation of Hell. Summary:

* Devils started out as angels, created by the Lawful gods to fight Demons so that they could use their time creating worlds instead.

* The Devils took on the appearance and traits of demons to fight them better. (As a result, they gained fire immunity, DR/Good, and other useful qualities that their angelic forms didn't possess.)

* In doing so their appearances degenerated, and the good gods like Yondalla and Moradin didn't want them in heaven anymore. Heironeus held a tribunal but Asmodeus argued that they were upholding the Law by fighting Chaos.

* The demons were successfully contained; however, the first set of worlds were destroyed, because inevitably the mortals would explore too far, dig too deep (in the case of dwarves), breach the demons' prison and end up seduced/possessed. Asmodeus explained to the bewildered gods that enforcing Law requires Punishment. Hell was founded as a result.

* Asmodeus points out that since they won't be in heaven anymore, the devils will need power from another source. He proposes that the deities make the archdevils into gods (Moradin and co. predictably refuse), then proposes the "alternate" plan of having the deities sign the Pact Primeval. The Pact simply says that the devils can draw upon the power in the souls of evildoers to fuel their magic instead of living in heaven. The gods signed it. Little did they know the method by which the devils would extract power - lots and lots of torture.


And here you have the crux of the problem. The devils are pretty evil, but they are still embodiments of Law. They might hate the Upper Planes, but they still have the duty of destroying the demons unfinished. Furthermore, with all the good gods dead, they'd have no source of souls to power themselves anymore - the demons would win in a second at that point. So I really don't see any way the IFCC's plan could work.

Rich's use of the whole Blood War concept indicates that he's using at least some of the D&D concept of demons and devils here.

[Snake-Aes]

Furthermore, with all the good gods dead, they'd have no source of souls to power themselves anymore - the demons would win in a second at that point. So I really don't see any way the IFCC's plan could work.

Rich's use of the whole Blood War concept indicates that he's using at least some of the D&D concept of demons and devils here.

If they draw on the souls of evils, why would the lack of goods cap them?

[Optimystik]

If they draw on the souls of evils, why would the lack of goods cap them?

Because evil gods can't create souls - they come from the Positive Energy plane in 3.5 It's a common fantasy trope that evil can't create, only corrupt; see also LotR.

[Snake-Aes]

That's so...religious.
Tch :/ I'm used to another setting. Gods have no power to create souls, and they wander randomly into one of the 20 gods' planes when they die.

[SaintRidley]

The Fiendish Codex 2 lays out a creation story. It could just be Baatezu propaganda, after all. Given the lack of mention of the Baernoloths, Ancient Baatorians, and Obyriths, I wouldn't be so sure about taking the Pact Primeval story as gospel.



One way I envision it is this way:


When the universe was young and new, the three original fiend races emerged - the Obyriths in the abyss, the Ancient Baatorians in the Hells, and the Baernoloths in Hades.

The Baernoloths were tinkerers and slowly infiltrated the other lower planes, creating the daemons. In addition they taught the Obyriths how to create the Tanar'ri and created some of the first Baatezu.

The Baernoloths began engineering an experiment, choosing their best and brightest. Some went to Baator, consolidating power with the Baatezu that had recently overtaken the Ancient Baatorians. These Baernoloths became the original Lords of the Nine. Others went to the Abyss, sparking revolution, and becoming the first Tanar'ri lords. One remained with the daemons, becoming the Oinoloth.

The others retreated from the universe to observe.

The daemons, powerful in their own right, decided to organise up the Blood War, to determine the depth and meaning of the evil of the other fiendish races, unknowingly playing right into whatever inscrutable experiment the Baernoloths had created. They think they're the puppetmasters, working to reveal the true face of evil before turning it united against the upper planes, but in reality they're pawns of an even bigger, unknown game.


So you get a Blood War initiated by the daemons for a reason they can't even be sure about because they're being manipulated by their creators. Whatever the Baatezu or Tanar'ri say about their origins is as likely to be pure propaganda as it is to be misinformation handed down by the Baernoloths in charge (though there are a few Baatezu in charge in the Hells, such as Bael, and Glasyia and Fierana are hybrids).

All in all, whatever is going on in the Lower planes is really just one facet of something much bigger. And that something is probably completely impossible to fully understand.

[Red XIV]

Since each of the IFCC gets individual control over V for a set time, whats to stop which ever is first in control simply turning V (and hence the Snarl) on the other 2 members?
Because the Snarl cannot be controlled. By anyone.

[Chameon]

The IFCC is the regular "Savvy Evil Overlord" from my perspective.

The three members seem to act as friends, which really does help there movements. Besides that, they show they don't really care about certain types of evil, (see 668 on Xykon/Gobbos/Redcloak/etc, may be exceptions unknown to me) they seem to care about demon/fiend growth in advantages (see "deal" portion where they bothered to state their whole plan, including murdering the lawful good heaven, and 668) and furthermore, they never have shown their whole hand to any mortal thus far. (V doesn't know one of them already used a few of his minutes, down to 3:23, which means he used 8 minutes or so, as opposed to the combined other twos 21:23) They're willing to change up a few of their own methods for limited improvement of the plan (see the verbal contract) and take some pain from a pissed deity as opposed to just scapegoating the other two. (see 668 again)

Sorry, this may be too much inference and guesswork, but it seems to me that these guys are PROBABLY going to make Xykon look like an admittedly badass baby having a fit.

[Turkish Delight]

But it's a logical one nonetheless. Even with the Devils' assistance, keeping the Demons in check is a full-time job for the Upper Planes; there are just that many of them down there. If the Celestials didn't need their help, there would have been no need to allow the creation of Devils or the Hells in the first place. So naturally, Hell joining forces with the Abyss would tip the balance pretty decisively.

But there's a flipside to that coin; namely, after the heavens are annihilated, there'd be nothing to stop the Demons from destroying the Devils either. As embodiments of Chaotic Evil, their betrayal is a foregone conclusion, and no contract or other agreement with Hell will keep them in check. The best the Devils could hope for is succeeding to vanquish the Heavens before being destroyed themselves; I really don't see how the IFCC's plan could go any other way in the long run.

Eh. I've been out of the loop with AD&D since 2nd edition or so; my knowledge of the retcons in regards to Devils and Demons is all second-hand, from reading these forums and elsewhere. Still, even back in the day before Devils were seen as sort of hired thugs to keep the Demons from devouring creation, the implication was always that in the event the two sides were ever able to work out their differences and end the Blood War, all of reality would be seriously screwed.

So it is logical from what has been written, I'm not contesting that. What remains puzzling is why it was written that way to begin with. Both then and with the current depiction, you have to wonder why Good is depicted as being such a push-over. If anything, they've had countless millenia of near-peace in the Upper Planes from which to prepare themselves against anything the Demons and Devils can throw at them, while their Infernal counterparts have spent that same time wearing down their strength bashing heads.

Again, the idea of the unstoppable Demon horde all feels very Lovecraftian. You can't really hope to win, you can only hope to delay things or divert the attention of the unstoppable force for awhile.

[Oberon]

In it's own way, from a certain perspective, the alliance is every bit as unnatural as an Archon and a Pit Fiend teaming up to advance the cause of Law.


I wouldn't say quite that drastic. It's always much MUCH easier to bridge the law/chaos gap that the good/evil gap. I mean CG and LG characters work together in like EVERY D&D related story or game ever (and other fantasy stories too if you want to start assigning alignments to them). But how often will a good and evil person work together if not in dire circumstances? Belkar notwithstanding, how often do you see CG and CE chars in the same party? Or LG and LE chars? They might team up temporarily if trapped or if threatened by a common enemy, but not to the extent that the IFCC seems to get along.

That said, some dissention will likely start to show as a result of the bad blood (so to speak) between their races and, of course, the fact that they're all evil, and evil people tend to squabble.

[hamishspence]

While rare organizations do exist that bridge the gap (The Regulators in Epic Handbook, Lawful- include both fiends and celestials) it is true that varieties of Good are more likely to work together than varieties of Evil.

[SaintRidley]

So it is logical from what has been written, I'm not contesting that. What remains puzzling is why it was written that way to begin with. Both then and with the current depiction, you have to wonder why Good is depicted as being such a push-over. If anything, they've had countless millenia of near-peace in the Upper Planes from which to prepare themselves against anything the Demons and Devils can throw at them, while their Infernal counterparts have spent that same time wearing down their strength bashing heads.

Again, the idea of the unstoppable Demon horde all feels very Lovecraftian. You can't really hope to win, you can only hope to delay things or divert the attention of the unstoppable force for awhile.


On the Lovecraftian feel, that's exactly what I love about it.


To speculate regarding the Upper Planars - I would venture that they pour many of their resources into fuelling the Blood War as a preventive measure. Keep the fiends motivated and looking away from you and you don't have to worry so much about the whole being attacked thing. In addition, the fact that there are so many demons out there it doesn't matter how good their defences are. If the demons were loosed on the planes they would not survive long due to sheer numbers. The only reason the devils have survived the Blood War is a combination of these factors:

Demons can't get to the 2nd-9th layers until they completely overrun the first layer and reconsecrate it to their own alignment. Thus, the entire Baatezu population of Avernus must be destroyed. Tiamat and the other LE gods that dwell on Avernus must be dealt with in some way (potentially less of an issue since Lolth ascended, though if Orcus or Demogorgon could achieve godhood the tide of battle would turn quite a bit).

The devils are a rigidly efficient, extremely effective war machine. They organise battalions and create battle plans that utilise the nature of the enemy to better kill the enemy. Demons, on the other hand, are quite often nearly feral. They revel in the slaughter and any battle plans drawn up by them tend to be forgotten in short order.




The best the upper planes can hope for is to keep the fiends focused on each other. The force of numbers were the fiends to unite would be too much for any force. When you can just throw more at the enemy without care for losses, you don't need tactics. You only need time.

[Mr. Scaly]

It's not impossible, but in D&D, Devils and Demons fight each other because that is what Devils were designed to do. FC2 lays out the whole creation story (including Asmodeus' origins as an archangel) and the reasons behind the creation of Hell. Summary:

...

And here you have the crux of the problem. The devils are pretty evil, but they are still embodiments of Law. They might hate the Upper Planes, but they still have the duty of destroying the demons unfinished. Furthermore, with all the good gods dead, they'd have no source of souls to power themselves anymore - the demons would win in a second at that point. So I really don't see any way the IFCC's plan could work.

Rich's use of the whole Blood War concept indicates that he's using at least some of the D&D concept of demons and devils here.

It's worth noting that FC2 also says that Asmodeus has a grand master plan to counter pretty all of those problems. The broad strokes are:

-completely corrupt the prime material plane.

-use all the energy from those souls to heal his wounds and ascend to godhood.

-win the Blood War. (Either by brokering a short term deal with the demons or crushing them in a final climactic campaign.)

-turn on the gods and burn down the heavens.

-rule everything.

Obviously there are bits in between but the book mentions his plan is ahead of schedule. :smalltongue: Of course of Stickverse doesn't have an equivalent for Asmodeus things would be pretty different, but I could see the IFCC as the first stage of step three.

[Morgan Wick]

I know that it's their job. They exist to demonstrate that fiends whose views on the law/neutrality/chaos axis do not align can work together to make the world a darker, viler place.

And yet they do represent three races which have been clawing and murdering and slaughtering each other en masse from long before mortals were even around. The Devil and the Demon especially should find each other's presence vaguely intolerable, the fact that the one can't reach over and tear out the other's throat like a horrible itch they have to restrain themselves from scratching in the name of the Greater Evil. In it's own way, from a certain perspective, the alliance is every bit as unnatural as an Archon and a Pit Fiend teaming up to advance the cause of Law.

And yet no sign of that here. The three almost seem like a hive mind, one following up what the others have to say without a hitch or any sign of internal dissension. Even deciding which IFCC member represents which alignment is enough to spark massive threads, because the three behave almost exactly the same.

I'm wondering, though, if it will continue to be like that. If the plans of the IFCC start to unravel in some way, or if they're put under sufficient pressure, will we see fractures start to form between the currently interchangeable forces of darkness?

Hmm. Maybe the IFCC is misleading even Qarr and the reader about their true nature and motives?

[Snake-Aes]

The IFCC is the regular "Savvy Evil Overlord" from my perspective.

The three members seem to act as friends, which really does help there movements. Besides that, they show they don't really care about certain types of evil, (see 668 on Xykon/Gobbos/Redcloak/etc, may be exceptions unknown to me) they seem to care about demon/fiend growth in advantages (see "deal" portion where they bothered to state their whole plan, including murdering the lawful good heaven, and 668) and furthermore, they never have shown their whole hand to any mortal thus far. (V doesn't know one of them already used a few of his minutes, down to 3:23, which means he used 8 minutes or so, as opposed to the combined other twos 21:23) They're willing to change up a few of their own methods for limited improvement of the plan (see the verbal contract) and take some pain from a pissed deity as opposed to just scapegoating the other two. (see 668 again)

Sorry, this may be too much inference and guesswork, but it seems to me that these guys are PROBABLY going to make Xykon look like an admittedly badass baby having a fit.

What? The IFCC never used a single nanossecond from their credit.

[Herald Alberich]

(V doesn't know one of them already used a few of his minutes, down to 3:23, which means he used 8 minutes or so, as opposed to the combined other twos 21:23)

Wait, what? I think you misunderstood #667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html). The purple fiend gets 3 min. 6 sec. because that's how long V held onto Haerta's splice. He hasn't used any minutes yet; when would that have happened? The other two get 20 min. 35 sec. each because the other two splices lasted that long before Xykon removed them by application of wall-to-the-noggin.