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oxinabox
2009-07-24, 02:36 AM
Is it just me or is it that ranger is basically a example of a semioptimed TWF or ranged fighter until it gets spell casting?

AslanCross
2009-07-24, 02:39 AM
With better skill points. The ranger is a pseudo-skill monkey.

On the subject of spellcasting, though---the ranger spell list in Spell Compendium is really good.

The Mystic Ranger variant (accelerated casting, delayed combat style feats) makes a really good archery build.

TheLibrarian
2009-07-24, 02:42 AM
The Mystic Ranger variant (accelerated casting, delayed combat style feats) makes a really good archery build.

Mystic Ranger you say?
I have not heard of that one, where might I find such a thing, that warrents looking into.

oxinabox
2009-07-24, 02:47 AM
Does a ranger effectivly get more Feats than fighter?
Eg he get a class feature that is basically a feat, more often than i fighter gets a feat?
I'm considering a archer build.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-24, 02:51 AM
http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf has the Mystic Ranger, as well as a few other variants, including the Moon-Warded Ranger, which grants some neat defensive abilities in place of a a combat style, including Mind-Affecting ability immunity at level 11.

EDIT: I know this isn't too relevant for optimizing archery but if you don't use a veriant which scraps the Animal Companion, the Natural Bond feat basically gives you a Companion as if you were a Druid rather then a Ranger, so you may consider that to be helpful (that's on http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Feats.pdf ).

Coidzor
2009-07-24, 02:55 AM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=16927678&postcount=52

That should give you the information about it that you need.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-24, 03:19 AM
Ranger is far more a skillmonkey than a fighter. He's got all three sensory skills (search/spot/listen) and both anti-detection skills (hide, move silently), and gets synergistic abilities with them (track, swift tracker, camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight...).

Once he gets casting, however, he really comes into his own.

Saph
2009-07-24, 03:22 AM
Does a ranger effectivly get more Feats than fighter?
Eg he get a class feature that is basically a feat, more often than i fighter gets a feat?
I'm considering a archer build.

A level 6 Ranger effectively gets two archery feats (Rapid Shot, Manyshot).

A level 6 Fighter gets four bonus feats.

So the Fighter gets more feats, but the Ranger makes up for it with much better skills, a few useful class features, and a tiny bit of spellcasting.

- Saph

Yora
2009-07-24, 03:34 AM
The Ranger also gets Endurance and Track. Not real combat feats, but feats.

Killer Angel
2009-07-24, 03:47 AM
So the Fighter gets more feats, but the Ranger makes up for it with much better skills, a few useful class features, and a tiny bit of spellcasting.
- Saph

...and he also has a good fluff synergy with the druid... :smallsmile:

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-24, 01:09 PM
Does a ranger effectivly get more Feats than fighter?
Eg he get a class feature that is basically a feat, more often than i fighter gets a feat?
I'm considering a archer build.
That depends entirely on which class features you consider to be "basically a feat" and on which level range you're talking about. The Ranger's class features are suboptimal for many builds. For archery in particular, I think that Scout/Ranger with the Swift Hunter feat is supposed to be good.

Saph
2009-07-24, 01:13 PM
Don't write off the Ranger too quickly. The Spell Compendium gives them a very nice spell list, and there are alternate class features that help a lot too. TWF rangers aren't too good, but archery ones can contribute fairly effectively to a party.

Draz74
2009-07-24, 03:13 PM
Don't write off the Ranger too quickly. The Spell Compendium gives them a very nice spell list, and there are alternate class features that help a lot too. TWF rangers aren't too good, but archery ones can contribute fairly effectively to a party.

All true, but still, the class really does get a lot better with a Scout dip and Swift Hunter.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-24, 03:21 PM
The Ranger also gets Endurance and Track. Not real combat feats, but feats.

Hello, Horizonwalker!

Frosty
2009-07-24, 03:35 PM
Hello, Horizonwalker!

Yep. Saph has a good guide on Horizon Walkers that work in games without Tome of Battle.

evil-frosty
2009-07-24, 05:00 PM
Can i have a link to that please? I have a ranger in a game i am in and plan on going into Horizon walker.

Coidzor
2009-07-24, 05:35 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415&highlight=Horizon+Tripper

I'm just thinking right now about what a mystic ranger should do about melee.

John Campbell
2009-07-24, 05:56 PM
The character I've got queued up for our next campaign is going to be a mounted archer, and is based primarily on Ranger. Being an effective mounted combatant past the early levels (when a heavy warhorse is likely to be the best melee combatant in the party) really requires you to have a paladin mount or rideable animal companion or the like, so it'll scale in power with you and won't just get vaporized by AoEs that only mildly irritate the PCs.

The Ranger's half-progression animal companion, sadly, doesn't scale that well. So I'm going to take Natural Bond, dip a level or two of Beastmaster, and take all of Wild Plains Outrider (it's only three levels, sadly, but they're full progression), which will keep my effective druid level for animal companion purposes up close to my actual character level, and get me my dire wolf mount early enough to even bother with, and keep it tough enough to be hanging with the party.

I've got a level of Barbarian, too, just for the rage. (I'm a half-orc. It's my favored class, and what's a half-orc without rage?) All the dipping and prestiging means that my spellcasting is never going to be worth much of anything (and it isn't really in-character anyway), so I used Champion of the Wild to trade it in for more combat style feats. We're using Pathfinder core, too, so I get more feats from basic feat progression. I'm going to end up with the whole Spirited Charge chain and practically every archery feat that's worth having.

Pathfinder's improved skill system makes the skill situation much nicer, too... the creation of Perception and Stealth merged five skills that I was planning to try to keep near max down to only two, which means they no longer have to fight my absolutely vital Ride, Survival, and Handle Animal for the points. Though even stock 3.5 Ranger does much better skills-wise than a Fighter. Way more points, and a much better list.

So, yeah, my build is not just a sub-optimal Fighter that eventually gets spellcasting, it's no-spellcasting, full BAB, near-full animal companion, Fighter-level feat progression, and halfway decent skillmonkey.

Frosty
2009-07-24, 06:10 PM
If you need a decent mount...take Leadership instead. Now you've got something that always scales. Or take the Wild-Cohort feat. OR both to have a super mount.

AslanCross
2009-07-24, 06:20 PM
For a melee ranger, I prefer having Swordsage levels, since Desert Wind and Tiger Claw really bring out the beauty of TWF. You could even throw in Shadow Hand for a more stealth-oriented Ranger, but of course Shadow Hand is best served with Sneak Attack.

The archery build is much easier to do with the ranger, since archery doesn't have as much inherent difficulty as TWF. As I've mentioned, there are a lot of really good spells for the Ranger in Spell Compendium:
-Hunter's Mercy: Your next attack, should it hit, is an automatic critical hit. Good on bows, of course.
-Surefoot: +10 on Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble checks. You aren't flat-footed when you are climbing or balancing.
-Guided Shot: Ignore concealment for 1 round. Great combo with any form of "smokescreen." It also seems very ranger-ish to me to throw a bomb of some sort and snipe through it.
-Arrow Storm: Attack X enemies within one range increment, where X is your class level.