Thog's Alignment

[Draxonicar]

I don't think that thog is Evil,because When they were breaking out of prison,he seemed like a small child, and got worried that nale was lost, and even said that nale "let him stay up an hour past his bedtime on weekends" even though they would have a hard time stopping him if they tried. He cared for his dwarf puppy, too.....He seems so innocent and childlike, and forgets why he got mad after raging. He was too engrossed in is own thoughts when he killed the sylph, thinking she was just another monster. Icecream stops him from going berserk, and he dressed up as a LEPRECHAUN! He just seems too innocent to be evil, I think he's more of a Chaotic Neutral type

[Porthos]

I don't think that thog is Evil,because When they were breaking out of prison,he seemed like a small child, and got worried that nale was lost, and even said that nale "let him stay up an hour past his bedtime on weekends" even though they would have a hard time stopping him if they tried. He cared for his dwarf puppy, too.....He seems so innocent and childlike, and forgets why he got mad after raging. He was too engrossed in is own thoughts when he killed the sylph, thinking she was just another monster. Icecream stops him from going berserk, and he dressed up as a LEPRECHAUN! He just seems too innocent to be evil, I think he's more of a Chaotic Neutral type

*checks watch*

Yep, been about four to six weeks since the last "Thog can't be CE thread." So this thread is right on time. :smalltongue:

[littlequietguy]

Is it even possible to be so engrossed that you can't here someones cries for help?

[Morty]

*sigh*
We haven't had one of those threads in a while.
Thog obeys Nale's evil orders without hesitation. Orders that include slaughtering innocent people in droves. He considers cleaving guardsmen in two while resisting arrest is fun. He will whack people within an inch of their lives with doors so that he and his friends can have ice cream. He's Chaotic Evil. He might be Chaotic Neutral or even Good if it was someone else ordering him around rather than Nale but right now, he's Chaotic Evil.

[Woodsman]

I don't think that thog is Evil,because When they were breaking out of prison,he seemed like a small child, and got worried that nale was lost, and even said that nale "let him stay up an hour past his bedtime on weekends" even though they would have a hard time stopping him if they tried. He cared for his dwarf puppy, too.....He seems so innocent and childlike, and forgets why he got mad after raging. He was too engrossed in is own thoughts when he killed the sylph, thinking she was just another monster. Icecream stops him from going berserk, and he dressed up as a LEPRECHAUN! He just seems too innocent to be evil, I think he's more of a Chaotic Neutral type

You realize most of these can be attributed to his lack of mental stats, correct?

[Shatteredtower]

Nah, he's evil. The philosophy of, "thog like breaking stuff," generally defines other people among that "stuff" with little regard to whether or not it needs to be justified.

[Porthos]

*sigh*
We haven't had one of those threads in a while.
Thog obeys Nale's evil orders without hesitation. Orders that include slaughtering innocent people in droves. He considers cleaving guardsmen in two while resisting arrest is fun. He will whack people within an inch of their lives with doors so that he and his friends can have ice cream. He's Chaotic Evil. He might be Chaotic Neutral or even Good if it was someone else ordering him around rather than Nale but right now, he's Chaotic Evil.

You're just biased against people who have commited murder over five hundred times. :smallannoyed:

[73 Bits of Lint]

He cared for his dwarf puppy, too.....
Is this some kind of joke? Slavery. Is. Evil.
There, I said what should have been obvious to anyone. Keeping another intelligent being on a leash, terrorizing it and calling it a "puppy" is a clear sign of an evil, and probably deranged, mind. Just because Elan was capable of using Thog's evil, bloodlust and lack of empathy to achieve a good end doesn't make Thog good anymore than Belkar's being used in the same way makes him good.

[Kish]

I wish I thought it was certain, or even terribly likely, that Corvis was reading this. Nevertheless. *clears throat*

I have a prejudice against axe-murdering psychopaths.

[Erts]

Well, think about it.
Every creature, no matter how stupid, cares about life a little bit in the DnD world. Unless, of course, they are evil, or mindless (generally undead.)
Thog probably has a wisdom of 3-5, and an INT of 3-5. Animals are 1-2.
He still has the choice to be good. Instead, he is evil.

To sum it up, if someone was as stupid as Thog, but they instead helped people, using their powers for good, would they be good?

[Iain]

Keeping another intelligent being on a leash, terrorizing it and calling it a "puppy" is a clear sign of an evil, and probably deranged, mind.
Well, not necessarily :smallwink:

That said, Thog is clearly and thoroughly CE. In an endearing sort of way.

[Porthos]

To sum it up, if someone was as stupid as Thog, but they instead helped people, using their powers for good, would they be good?

You'd be surprised at how many people forget about that corollary when they say that Thog Is Too Stupid to be Evil. :smallwink:

[Draxonicar]

For the record, Chaotic Neutral is generally for madmen and the insane, and thog DOESN'T KNOW ANY BETTER.



Compare belkar to thog

B: dulls his knives to hurt more
T: ICE CREAM!
B: Come here, my delicious chunks of XP
T: Nale let thog stay up an hour past bedtime on weekends!
B: I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!
T: NO, without breadcrumbs nale will get lost in the witches forest!
B: Uses whores on a regular basis
T: Thinks girls are scary



Honestly, I don't see a resemblance

[Morty]

thog DOESN'T KNOW ANY BETTER.

He has an Int score highter than 2. Therefore, he knows better.



Honestly, I don't see a resemblance

And since when people of the same alignment are supposed to be identical? Besides, Thog kills people for fun like Belkar and Xykon, doesn't he?

[Ancalagon]

It's quite simple, actually:

Thog evil.

Any other conclusion is just... mind boggling. No clue how someone can read the Thog-comics and still think he's not evil. If you want proof "Thog help nale nail not-nale".... cutting of heads of people etc etc and liking it.

Thog Evil. Get over it.

[Draxonicar]

I thought it was because he likes breaking thing, like lots of children do. And just because he has an INT score doesn't man he knows any better. If a half-orc grows up thinking murder, killing and destruction are ok, how does he know any better?



He wanted a puppy, but nale, being evil,gave him a dwarf and said it was a puppy.

[FoE]

:thog: Yes, Thog have mind of child.

Vicious, sadistic child who enjoys hurting others.

[Jackson]

Compare Belkar to Thog

B: Knows the lyrics to 'Meet Me in St. Louis'
T: Cleaves guardsmen in half
B: Is a gourmet chef
T: Killed a harmless sylph while ignoring her pleas for mercy
B: Saved Haley's life and refused to kill the person attacking her once he'd subdued her
T: Beat Haley into submission with a door
B: Saved and fed a stray cat that became his pet
T: Enslaved a dwarf for a pet

See how fun weighted comparisons can be?

[Oberon]

For the record, Chaotic Neutral is generally for madmen and the insane, and thog DOESN'T KNOW ANY BETTER.



Compare belkar to thog

B: dulls his knives to hurt more
T: ICE CREAM!
B: Come here, my delicious chunks of XP
T: Nale let thog stay up an hour past bedtime on weekends!
B: I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!
T: NO, without breadcrumbs nale will get lost in the witches forest!
B: Uses whores on a regular basis
T: Thinks girls are scary



Honestly, I don't see a resemblance

Just because their alignment is the same doesn't mean their personalities will be. There are maaany more factors. As many D&D books have stated, even those with evil alignments often care about some people close to them (Nale, Sabine, possibly Elan). But they have little regard for life. He brutally murdered the earth sprite without a second thought, took the initiative in beating Haley almost to death with a door with little provocation. "Resisting arrest is fun" (chops off a head)! HE KILLS PEOPLE FOR FUN! It doesn't matter if he also thinks ice cream and puppies are fun, any more than Belkar's friendship with Mr. Scruffy makes him less evil.

We've had this debate before, and the answer is always the same. Thog is CE.

Edit: Also, he DOES know better. "Nail not Nail" shows he knows exactly what he's doing. "Thog Guilty."

[Erts]

He wanted a puppy, but nale, being evil,gave him a dwarf and said it was a puppy.

Where does it say that? He just kept it as a slave and pretends its a puppy.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm going to wade in here with another not-CE, personally. I can see how he COULD be CE, and it wouldn't lessen my enjoyment of him one bit.

But I don't really recall him doing much in the way of evil (on or off page) when he was having his side-quest with Elan. Infact, if I remember correctly, at the climax of that little arc, he even tried to take steps to make everyone he liked friends, so that nale and not-nale could all get along. Of course, he did do so by axe-ing someone else. (Forget who, brain...hazy). He's certainly not CG!

But the way it seems to me, he's definately chaotic, but moral-wise, he kind of just takes the lead of whoever's around that he's latched onto. And he IS capable of empathy and concern for others, if only people he actually knows.

And of course he likes to break stuff. Thog not elf, you know. ;)

He seems at least a little CN, to me. Possibly with tendancies, but tendancies that can be easily explained through his peers.

[Erts]

Okay. Here then:
Is he really chaotic, or is he to stupid to recognize rules?
In fact, I think Thog is LN, just the only rules he follows are whatever Nale says.

[Porthos]

And just because he has an INT score doesn't man he knows any better.

Actually, by rules, it does. :smallsmile:

Thog knows he is guilty of crimes. Which implies that he does know better. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html)

Also also: CN = Insane was a First/Second Edition idea. Thankfully long gone.

Also also also: Childish Isn't Necessarily Innocent. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychopathicManChild)

Thog is funny.
Thog is charming.
Thog also loves wanton death and destruction. He also loves torturing people. And murdering. And.

Well, you get the idea.

I will say that IF Thog had a good role model then perhaps his violent and destructive tendencies might be curtailed. But if if and buts were candy and nuts, then we'd all have a merry christmas, as the old saying goes. :smallwink:

[Kish]

For the record, Chaotic Neutral is generally for madmen and the insane,

"For the record," no. For a very long time now, being completely insane has officially made someone True Neutral in the same "unable to truly have an alignment" sense as animals. Beyond that, are you saying Thog is insane?


Compare belkar to thog
[...]
Honestly, I don't see a resemblance
Comparisons like that always miss the point that there are more than nine personalities in the world. Redcloak doesn't much resemble Nale either, yet both are Lawful Evil.

If [any entity] grows up thinking murder, killing and destruction are ok, how does he know any better?
He doesn't. That's why he grows up Chaotic Evil.

Okay. Here then:
Is he really chaotic, or is he to stupid to recognize rules?
In fact, I think Thog is LN, just the only rules he follows are whatever Nale says.
Barbarian. Can't be Lawful.

[Erts]

Barbarian. Can't be Lawful.

Irrelevant! For all we know, in the OOTS world it's allowed!
Or, he's True Neutral.

Note the sarcasm.

[Oberon]

But I don't really recall him doing much in the way of evil (on or off page) when he was having his side-quest with Elan. Infact, if I remember correctly, at the climax of that little arc, he even tried to take steps to make everyone he liked friends, so that nale and not-nale could all get along. Of course, he did do so by axe-ing someone else. (Forget who, brain...hazy). He's certainly not CG!
.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my last post. The people he's fond of he wants to get along. But anyone else, he's perfectly happy to murder.

That's evil my friends.

Evil people can still have friends and loved ones. Look at Redcloak. Look at the mother Black Dragon.

[Kish]

Irrelevant! For all we know, in the OOTS world it's allowed!
Or, he's True Neutral.

Note the sarcasm.
"Thog's unthinking obedience to Nale's orders makes him Lawful" is actually a much stronger case than anyone's ever made for Thog being nonevil. :smalltongue:

[Elfin]

*sigh*
We haven't had one of those threads in a while.
Thog obeys Nale's evil orders without hesitation. Orders that include slaughtering innocent people in droves. He considers cleaving guardsmen in two while resisting arrest is fun. He will whack people within an inch of their lives with doors so that he and his friends can have ice cream. He's Chaotic Evil. He might be Chaotic Neutral or even Good if it was someone else ordering him around rather than Nale but right now, he's Chaotic Evil.

Sadly, I'd have to agree.

[Berserk Monk]

Thog's alignment is Chaotic Sexy:

:thog: "if you wanna be thog's lover, you gotta get with thog's friends"

[Erts]

"Thog's unthinking obedience to Nale's orders makes him Lawful" is actually a much stronger case than anyone's ever made for Thog being nonevil. :smalltongue:

Deciding if someone is Lawful or Chaotic is always easier than if he is Good or Evil. Simply because Good and Evil are a moral issue, while Law and Chaos are behavioral ones.
I've argued (jokingly) that the Joker in The Dark Knight is CG, just really messed up. ("He's only trying to get everyone to lighten up! That's altruistic!")

[Surfing HalfOrc]

After all the "Thog is child-like" and "Thog is Evil" I've simply come to the conclusion that children are evil! :smallwink:

Is everybody happy now?

[Evil DM Mark3]

The core of this argument stems from a missunderstanding.

DnD uses a system of alignment where actions have alignment consiquences. Thog does evil things (ranging from torture (Céline Dion) to slavery and murder.) in a gorsely high proportion to good things and is therefore evil.

That's it. That is how the world works.

[pflare]

I think its impossible to tell because of his limited mental faculties. All that's important is that he follows Nale's orders so he'll be doing Evil acts.

[Erts]

After all the "Thog is child-like" and "Thog is Evil" I've simply come to the conclusion that children are evil! :smallwink:

Is everybody happy now?

I've come to the conclusion that baby's are murdering greedy psychopaths, which would make a gang of grave robbers look like a group of charity monks who gave up all but the most basic of material possessions.

[Porthos]

T: ICE CREAM!

I notice you left out the important bit of the quote :smallwink:
T: Thog delay boredem driven rampage only for you!

Also, Thog thinks it would be fun to torture people with Celene Dion records.

Thog = Evil. :smalltongue:

[Cizak]

I don't play DnD, but isn't killing out of boredom very CE?

[Erts]

I don't play DnD, but isn't killing out of boredom very CE?

Well, the argument is "if your not smart enough, (like a child,) is killing evil? Can someone as stupid as Thog enough recognize life?"

[Jaltum]

He might be Chaotic Neutral or even Good if it was someone else ordering him around rather than Nale but right now, he's Chaotic Evil.

I don't think we can even go this far. Nale's control is flimsy--he has to continuously bribe Thog with ice cream to stop him from murdering people out of boredom. Elan would have the same problem; the only reason he didn't is because Thog was temporarily focused on saving Nale. When he ran out of projects to keep Thog busy, he would have started killing again.

I'm a bit surprised that Nale doesn't use magical mind control on Thog more, but I suppose as Thog levels up it gets harder and harder, especially since Nale is stupidly multiclassed.

[Morty]

I don't think we can even go this far. Nale's control is flimsy--he has to continuously bribe Thog with ice cream to stop him from murdering people out of boredom. Elan would have the same problem; the only reason he didn't is because Thog was temporarily focused on saving Nale. When he ran out of projects to keep Thog busy, he would have started killing again.

I'm a bit surprised that Nale doesn't use magical mind control on Thog more, but I suppose as Thog levels up it gets harder and harder, especially since Nale is stupidly multiclassed.

Which is my I said "might". Thog might be CN if Nale didn't order him around, but he might simply rampage around on his own. Each one is possible.

[thepsyker]

After all the "Thog is child-like" and "Thog is Evil" I've simply come to the conclusion that children are evil! :smallwink:
Well I'm sure this is a joke, my friends and I have taken this as a given for any small children we've encountered in roleplaying games since playing the first Icewind Dale game.

[Snake-Aes]

Well I'm sure this is a joke, my friends and I have taken this as a given for any small children we've encountered in roleplaying games since playing the first Icewind Dale game.

In Smokestone, magical healing is a rare resource, you can only get it from clerics of Lena(goddess of life and healing, represented as a child).
Problem 1: The clerics of Lena in smokestone elevate the status of children
Problem 2: Clerics of lena must have one daughter, and the pregnancy comes from a ritual only clerics of lena have.
Clerics of Lena therefore have kids and revere them. These are called "The Innocents".

You really, really don't want to owe favors to the Innocents.

[73 Bits of Lint]

After all the "Thog is child-like" and "Thog is Evil" I've simply come to the conclusion that children are evil! :smallwink:

Is everybody happy now?
"He's like a child with superhuman combat capabilities, and, really, there is nothing more pure and cruel than a child." - Jet Black (who was apparently picked on a lot during Elementary School) of Cowboy Bebop.

Although, as someone who worked through college as the teacher's assistant in a preschool, I can assure you that Thog is about as childlike as Cujo (the rabid dog from Cujo) is "puppy-like." Children are capable of shame, empathy, moral reasoning (X is wrong because..., Y isn't fair because...) and compassion from a very early age, although they don't always use those abilities (but, then, neither do adults).

[Snake-Aes]

Thog openly stated that he was in a boredom-driven rampage. Someone that kills out of amusement is Evil, and that cannot be questioned.

He has at least one language, and class levels, comprehends what arrest is("resisting arrest is fun!"), and therefore has an intelligence score of at least 4, which puts him within the intellect level of beings capable of picking alignments.

[Acero]

i would say chaotic nuetral.

i believe that would be the only fitting title 4 thog

[Porthos]

Thog openly stated that he was in a boredom-driven rampage. Someone that kills out of amusement is Evil, and that cannot be questioned.

He has at least one language, and class levels, comprehends what arrest is("resisting arrest is fun!"), and therefore has an intelligence score of at least 4, which puts him within the intellect level of beings capable of picking alignments.

But... But... Chaotic Neutral means: I can do whatever I want... And as long as I occasionally pet a puppy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.PetTheDog), I'm still OK, alignment-wise.

Right? :smallyuk:

[Snake-Aes]

But... But... Chaotic Neutral means: I can do whatever I want... And as long as I occasionally pet a puppy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.PetTheDog), I'm still OK, alignment-wise.

Right? :smallyuk:

not-right. Chaotic Neutral wouldn't beat a person without a good reason(boredom isn't a good reason. to a certain extent not even a direct threat is a good reason).
on the evil-good axis, you could say the populace in general is neutral. They won't go out of their way to help anyone, but it doesn't mean they enjoy kicking babies.
Thog, by openly stating he does boredom-driven rampages, has shown a total lack of concern about people's lives that are only possible in an evil alignment.

[Porthos]

not-right.

Psssst...

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/BuckGodot/Icons/icon_sarcasm.gif
:smallwink:

[Spiryt]

Compare Belkar to Thog

B: Knows the lyrics to 'Meet Me in St. Louis'
T: Cleaves guardsmen in half
B: Is a gourmet chef
T: Killed a harmless sylph while ignoring her pleas for mercy
B: Saved Haley's life and refused to kill the person attacking her once he'd subdued her
T: Beat Haley into submission with a door
B: Saved and fed a stray cat that became his pet
T: Enslaved a dwarf for a pet

See how fun weighted comparisons can be?

Heed him/her !

[Ancalagon]

I'm just waiting or a thread where someone tries to point out that Xykon is just some poor, misunderstood bunny... ;)

[Porthos]

I'm just waiting or a thread where someone tries to point out that Xykon is just some poor, misunderstood bunny... ;)

Not exactly done seriously, but...

6051013


And now we come to lawful good Xykon.
And that is clear. You let yourself be blinded by marginal details, but just look at the core: Xykon caused the death of more evil humanoids than the whole sapphire guard together! He consacrated his life to the cause of fighting those abominations against everything that's good and pure! Instead of attacking them like other paladins, Xykon has an alternate tactic: first he become leader of said evil humanoids, then he sent them in suicide missions.
You may argue that's a bit nonconventional, so you may have a case for neutral good, but this has proven the most effective tactic, and a lawful character should adopt the most efficient tactic in the pursuing of his holy mission.
He's not even breaking the paladin's code by lying to the evil humanoids, since he makes clear to them from the beginning that he'll do his best to sent them to their rightful deaths.
Xykon is so dedicated to his cause that he made the extreme sacrifice, renounced to a well deserved rest in celestia, renounced to all the pleasures of life, to become a lich and fight for the right cause even after his natural lifespan. Again, one may argue that's chaotic to do that, but such dedication to a cause can't be anything but lawful.

Really, that whole thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110410) was made of win (including another take on the LG Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6052426&postcount=22)) . :smallamused:

[waterpenguin43]

Scientific comparison of Belkar, Sabine and Thog, analyzing the levels of evil:
-On sadism: Belkar is the most sadistic by far, dulling his daggers to hurt more and killing for fun.
-On sexuality: Sabine fits best in here obviously, she is an evil incarnation of illicit sex who does it 4 times in 3 hours if she has errands.
-On greed: Belkar, he killed a gnome for A CHOCOLATE BAR!!!
Thog is arguably evil because he kills civilians, he is chaotic, but his killing is on Nale's orders because he has no one else to listen to, but it has been shown that if he is under the command of good aligned people (eg. Elan) he displays no evil traits, he just goes with the flow of whoever commands him, seperating him from the vengeful and sexual Sabine and the murderous, sadistic and sexist (and to an extent racist) Belkar.

[Spiryt]

Ugh...

Your "scientific" analysis is kinda confusing...

Why "sexuality" is an evil trait and Sabine "wins here". And why you imply that chaotic have anything to do with evil?

Finally, I don't really think Belkar killed gnome out of greed. He just felt like doing it, which make it worst or better, depending on point of view. :smalltongue:

[waterpenguin43]

I'm not saying normal sexuality is evil, what I mean is just doing someone out of lust, in the comic Sabine is called an evil incarnation of illicit sex. But when I read the gnome comic again I realized I was wrong, sorry. Now I don't know who is the most greedy.

[Corvis]

I wish I thought it was certain, or even terribly likely, that Corvis was reading this. Nevertheless. *clears throat*

I have a prejudice against axe-murdering psychopaths.

The AMPADL will see you in court, sir.

[Jaltum]

it has been shown that if he is under the command of good aligned people (eg. Elan) he displays no evil traits, he just goes with the flow of whoever commands him

No. It hasn't. As I pointed out up the thread, Elan kept him busy.

Thog did NOT just kill on Nale's orders. He killed when it was inconvenient for Nale, because he was bored, so that Nale had to keep him continuously bribed and entertained to prevent boredom-fueled rampages. There's no reason to think this behavior would suddenly go away because he was hanging around with Elan. He brutally beats Haley with a door so that he and Elan can go have ice cream.

[Ancalagon]

I'm not saying normal sexuality is evil, what I mean is just doing someone out of lust, in the comic Sabine is called an evil incarnation of illicit sex. But when I read the gnome comic again I realized I was wrong, sorry. Now I don't know who is the most greedy.

What's wrong with lust? Luckily, the times where you "are only allowed in a marriage and to make children, but at best without fun" are over where I live. I see nothing evil in that. As Sabine was on her home-plane, she probably did not even seduce some poor husband or so, so it was all with grown-up, consensual demons, there's nothing evil about having sex four times, then - be it in three hours or three days.

[Mr. Scaly]

Why don't we argue about Durkon's alignment instead? I think he's chaotic neutral!

...No. No, I don't really think that. I'm just trying to change the subject towards a character whose alignment no one debates.

[DOOM2099]

Lawful Stupid

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Every time I start thinking that maybe Thog isn't so bad, I go back and look at this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html

And then I remember that he is, indeed, a nasty customer who you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley -- or a noonday boulevard, for that matter. :smalleek:

[Surprise!]

Is this some kind of joke? Slavery. Is. Evil.
There, I said what should have been obvious to anyone. Keeping another intelligent being on a leash, terrorizing it and calling it a "puppy" is a clear sign of an evil, and probably deranged, mind. Just because Elan was capable of using Thog's evil, bloodlust and lack of empathy to achieve a good end doesn't make Thog good anymore than Belkar's being used in the same way makes him good.

I suppose I have had some evil dates then :smalleek:

*edit*

Thog's alignment is obviously Lawful Evil, I mean he always obeys Nale right? :smallsigh:


Just wait for my O'Chul, CN theory.

[Haven]

Thog is chaotic evil because he loves going on random murderous boredom-driven rampages, which is pretty much the definition of chaotic evil.

You could make a case that his lower mental stats are responsible for this, and you might even be right, but 1) Belkar is still CE even though his perspective under Owl's Wisdom is quite different 2) Elan has similarly low mental stats and he turned out okay.


I suppose I have had some evil dates then :smalleek:


...
Lucky jerk. :smalltongue:

[lothos]

Interesting comparisons between Belkar and Thog. I think though the only things they prove (when taking both Draxonicar's and Jackson's comparisons) is that all the characters actions vary across time and selecting specific actions can allow you to "prove" anything.

Looking at the overall way Thog behaves, his actions are unquestionably those that an intelligent being would definitely consider evil. Killing the earth slyph, bashing Haley... unless he has show enormous repentance for these actions off panel, his other actions do not justify these actions. He isn't doing these things because there is no realistic alternative.

Is Thog intelligent ? Intelligent enough to know that what he is doing is wrong ? I'm not sure.

I started out going through all the Thog strips with the intention of supporting a position that Thog is intelligent enough to know what he is doing. But honestly now I'm not so sure. He really is very stupid and child like indeed.

I'm really not sure now. Still, I've compiled this list of Thog Strips, so I'll post it anyway. One thing that really came across to me looking at what Thog was doing in each strip is how often he was just doing what Nale said. That challenged my initial assumption of "of course Thog knows what he is doing".

Strips with Thog:

Strip0043 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) Thog standing behind Nale when he meet not-nale for first time
Strip0044 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html) Thog like breaking stuff
Strip0047 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0047.html) THog just hang around in background
Strip0048 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html) Thog happy talky-man is happy
Strip0051 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) Thog Likes Puppies. Nale won't let Thog have puppy. Thog kill Earth Slyph, though Nale not there, Nale probably told Thog to do it earlier.
Strip0054 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0054.html) "Nale give Thog note for talky-man"
Strip0055 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) Thog only in top left corner of one panel from a distance, Thog somewhat sad.
Strip0057 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) Thog smash bridge when Nale say so.
Strip0059 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0059.html) Thog flying, not speaking.
Strip0060 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html) Thog still flying, but not speaking. Thog fall.
Strip0064 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) "Fighter Level 3 is dumb level. Thog not take"
Strip0066 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html) "Thog think pretty girls are icky ! Thog not want girl cooties !"
Strip0069 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html) Thog Hungry, but not do much because tied up
Strip0070 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) Thog Laugh and snort about how he killed Earth Slyph. Also laugh about how talky man not have scroll to remove petrification on Air Slyph, Celia.
Strip0072 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html) Thog not say anything or do much. Just lead up stairs after capture.
Strip0142 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html) Thog want to keep "puppy" [The real dawrven blacksmith]
Strip0252 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html) "Oh, little ice cream friends ! Thog delays boredom driven rampage only for you !"
Strip0253 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0253.html) Thog kill Larry Gardener with Axe when Nale said so.
Strip0254 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0254.html) Thog enjoyed using mop when one who must not be toilet trained had accident. Huddles are fun.
Strip0255 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) "Thog feels little Man's pain, Thog's racial abilities also below par"
Strip0256 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0256.html) Thog ready to kill people he not know when Nale said so.
Strip0257 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html) Thog worried about getting Cooties from Girl. Thog use Jet Roller Skates !
Strip0258 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) Thog offer to torture people with Celine Dion CD
Strip0298 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) Thog help Nale kill lots of people and not seem sad about killing them.
Strip0351 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0351.html) Thog hit Elan on head with Greataxe and not seem sad either
Strip0361 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html) Thog happy to accept head of police chief stuck on sword. Thog help frame Elan.
Strip0362 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) Thog enjoy resisting arrest.
Strip0363 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) Thog chooses to go quietly
Strip0367 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) "Thog help nail not-Nale, not Nale. And Thog knot not-nale while Nale nail not-Nale, now nail not-Nale by leaving not-Nale, not Nale, in jail"
Strip0387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) Thog demonstrate concern for Nale.
Strip0388 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0388.html) Thog's axe have sentimental value
Strip0389 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) Thog finish step 3: stuffing potato salad in to giant wooden alpaca
Strip0392 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) "Yay ! Thog coming to save you Nale"
Strip0393 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) "Thog and Nale reunion make Thog so happy". Then Thog hug Sabine.
Strip0394 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html) "All Thog's family back together." Then "Thog help too" [Help Killing Elan and Haley]
Strip0396 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) "Thog not want to hurt not-nale. Thog like not-nale. Thog want all Thog's friends to get ice cream together". Then Thog hit Haley with door.
Strip0397 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html) Thog scared of Teletubbies
Strip0398 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html) Thog want group hug
Strip0668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) Thog shown on wall of IFCC, but not actually in strip. Thog Sad.

Not quite all the Thog Strips, I realised I missed the ones where they break out of Azure City. Maybe I'll add those later if I am bored.

[Rev. George]

The comparison I think is more apt with Thog is to compare him to a human adventurer. If Thog's skin were some shade of brown, beige or yellow, and his victims were green or orange, he'd be your classic DnD hero. (Lampshaded here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html)

He also seems to suffer from Rich's characteristic "evil is generally unwise"- remember that belkar, upon gaining "owls wisdom" had second thoughts about his evil ways. (this seems to be reserved for the wantonly evil- the dedicated evil, like evil clerics, seem to be of more stout wisdom)

-+G

[Jaltum]

The comparison I think is more apt with Thog is to compare him to a human adventurer. If Thog's skin were some shade of brown, beige or yellow, and his victims were green or orange, he'd be your classic DnD hero.

No, he'd just be a taller, dumber version of Belkar. When your classic D&D hero goes off to kill monsters, they're generally doing human sacrifices or raiding the local villages or the footsoldiers and bodyguards of a BBEG, not goblins who happened to be in the wrong ice cream shop when he got bored.

There is a difference between how Roy, for instance, treats his enemies, even goblins, and how Belkar and Thog treat theirs. If Roy happened to pass by Goblin Dan's BBQ Hydra, he wouldn't slaughter the clientele and chef for standing around being green. He definitely wouldn't keep one as a slave/pet(/chamber pot).

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Precisely.

The politically correct rendering of the D&D hero as a different-colored Thog completely ignores the fact that the creatures D&D heroes are usually killing are also usually involved in eating peasants, torturing people to death on dark altars, or trying to awaken world-devouring abominations from their millenia-old slumber.

Roy has never, as far as I can recall, killed a noncombatant of any species.

Thog has been involved in plenty of random murder and mayhem (see also the thread I linked).

Therefore, we may state with mathematical confidence that Thog = Belkar, but Thog =/= Roy or any other good or neutral adventurer.

[rxmd]

Roy has never, as far as I can recall, killed a noncombatant of any species.

(Belch!) Hey, they're serving hors d'œuvres! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html)

The noncombatant actually survives, but not for lack of Roy trying.

[Jackson]

Interesting comparisons between Belkar and Thog. I think though the only things they prove (when taking both Draxonicar's and Jackson's comparisons) is that all the characters actions vary across time and selecting specific actions can allow you to "prove" anything.
Yeah, that was pretty much the point of my comparison: to demonstrate how easy it would be to make Belkar, who was being used as the standard for Chaotic Evil, look Good next to Thog if you cherry-picked the appropriate actions from each and either ignored or downplayed the rest.

It's easy to twist things to an interpretation. Much harder to build an interpretation from the things themselves.

[Zevox]

(Belch!) Hey, they're serving hors d'œuvres! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html)

The noncombatant actually survives, but not for lack of Roy trying.
...and who exactly do you think is a "noncombatant" in that comic?

Zevox

[RecklessFable]

Chaotic Evil is described as "The Destroyer"
Chaotic Neutral is described as "The Anachist" or "The Free Spirit"

In DnD wanton destruction, no matter whether it is smiling, is CE.

[Jaltum]

...and who exactly do you think is a "noncombatant" in that comic?

The weasel, I assume.

[Cracklord]

He recommended forcing Elan to listen to Celine Dion (shudder).
And NALE said no, I'm still civilized.
I rest my case.

[Susano-wo]

For what its worth, I find a lot of the descriptions of how evil the MM races are to be just excuses to not have to worry about making sure they are evil/opposing you--Gnolls take pleasure in the screams of their victims? sweet, I can just KoS.
Thog though? CE, seriously, unless you are arguing that sociopaths, since there is a mental disorder preventing them from feeling basic morality, are not evil. But to say that he is too dumb is baseless (or too unwise, though that is a much better moral agent identifier). Everyone without serious mental disorders has some sense of empathy with others, even if they have suppressed it

[Tatterdemalion]

It's obvious, to compromise, he's Chaotic Stupid.

[lothos]

Yeah, that was pretty much the point of my comparison: to demonstrate how easy it would be to make Belkar, who was being used as the standard for Chaotic Evil, look Good next to Thog if you cherry-picked the appropriate actions from each and either ignored or downplayed the rest.
It's easy to twist things to an interpretation. Much harder to build an interpretation from the things themselves.

I thought that's what you were saying, but I didn't want to put words in your mouth (or on your screen) by inferring this and stating that's what you were saying. I agree with you wholeheartedly.


(snip)
Thog though? CE, seriously, unless you are arguing that sociopaths, since there is a mental disorder preventing them from feeling basic morality, are not evil. But to say that he is too dumb is baseless (or too unwise, though that is a much better moral agent identifier). Everyone without serious mental disorders has some sense of empathy with others, even if they have suppressed it

I'm on the fence on Thog's level of stupidity, but I think there is a reasonable case that he is being manipulated to some extent be Nale (and maybe Sabine). Thog definitely acts in a Chaotic Evil way, no question.

There's reasonable evidence that he is intelligent enough to understand what he is doing. I think Strip 51 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html) is the best evidence of this. He kills the Earth Slyph even though Nale isn't actually around, then tries to cover up what he has done to Roy (though technically what he said is true ("Thog Alone"), it misleading rather than lying). This suggests to me that even though Nale might have told him ahead of time "Go kill the Earth Slyph", he understood well enough that it was wrong and that he should hide it from Roy, but he still went ahead and killed the defenceless Earth Slyph.

On the other hand, there are so many strips where he just does what Nale says and doesn't really seem to have any ability to plan actions for himself. Or if he does, he just subsumes his will to Nale's. I don't want to suggest that "I was just obeying orders" is a reasonable excuse for any action if you have any intelligence at all. But in some cases some people have such low mental capabilities that sufficiently clever and charismatic people can manipulate them.

Then he seems to show genuine concern for Nale in several strips. See strip 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) and strip 392 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) in particular. Full listing in the spoiler of my earlier post in this thread. This kind of concern is more in line with a Neutral alignment (Chaotic Neutral) in my mind.

There has been a lot of debate about the Monster in the Darkness and how O-Chul has influenced him/her/it. It's quite possible in my mind that Thog is CN and being influenced to evil acts by Nale, his intelligence and wisdom being so low that he can be manipulated easily by the Charismatic (if insane) Nale.

But overall, I'm going to say I think Thog is Chaotic Evil. I can't prove it though.

[SadisticFishing]

Yes, you can. He kills for fun.

If you are a "Good" person who is doing horrible things because your commander tells you to, you are not Lawful Good. If you're putting people in camps and killing them, whether or not you were told to do it, you are Evil.

Sucks, eh?

[Ehra]

This kind of concern is more in line with a Neutral alignment (Chaotic Neutral) in my mind.

Definitely not. Loving or caring for something isn't a good or evil act, it's personal.

Thog has done only evil acts without doing any good. That pretty much damns any chance of him possibly being anything other than Evil under DnD's alignment system. You can't do all evil acts and no good and not be evil. He could only be neutral if there were a balance between the two.

[lothos]

Yes, you can. He kills for fun.

If you are a "Good" person who is doing horrible things because your commander tells you to, you are not Lawful Good. If you're putting people in camps and killing them, whether or not you were told to do it, you are Evil.

Sucks, eh?

I guess that's one way to see it. I agree that Thog's actions are evil, no doubt. I'm not convinced he has the intellectual capacity to really understand what he is doing. If you are an adult with "normal" mental faculties, and you put people in camps and kill them, you are definitely evil, no argument. But if you are as mentally limited as Thog seems to be and you are being influenced by a charismatic evil guy (Nale)..... perhaps it's not so clear cut. I don't know.


Definitely not. Loving or caring for something isn't a good or evil act, it's personal.

Thog has done only evil acts without doing any good. That pretty much damns any chance of him possibly being anything other than Evil under DnD's alignment system. You can't do all evil acts and no good and not be evil. He could only be neutral if there were a balance between the two.

From the point of his acts, I agree. But when I read about the definitions of alignment in the 3.5 players handbook, it said something along the lines of Neutral (with respect to good/evil) people being bound to others by personal relationships. Whereas evil people just care about themselves and regard all others as tools to achieve their selfish needs. Thog appears to care about Nale. It's not enough to say "he isn't evil" because of that, but it just seems to fit Neutral a little better to me. Just my opinion though and as I said, overall I have to come down on the side of CE on balance of evidence.

EDIT - I guess you could sum up my feeling as saying "I believe Thog is Chaotic Evil, but that he is a candidate to be redeemed under the right circumstances, if he was in better company".

You know what would be an awesome thing (but I know Rich hates it when people say that, so I'll spoiler it... just in case he ever reads this (I know, unlikely))-If O-Chul could work on Thog and Redeem him :-) If anyone can do it, O-Chul the awesome can !

[Dallas-Dakota]

Chaotic Icecream!:smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

Well, we can tell he's a being of chaos.

We can tell that intelligence was his dump stat.

We don't know whether he has any actual mental impairments on top of being dumber than a sack of doorknobs. He might be mentally retarded or autistic. He may or may not have psychological damage to the extent where he's retreated within a childlike shell or he simply never mentally developed out of childhood and is still an (YMMV) innocent.

Simply having an Int Stat of 3, while essentially being (very probably) mentally retarded, is still enough to no longer be an animal and have enough of rudimentary intelligence and capacity to hold an alignment. Considering how little is commonly understood about autism, it could probably go either way with the whole morality license. I don't recall that much about it, but I don't think Thog has exhibited any autism spectrum characteristics.

As for psychological trauma, well, he is an orc, so, yeah... definitely a possibility as a source for mental illness.

So he's definitely Chaotic (something just tells me this is his elemental nature rather than his character, maybe it was the leprechaun outfit) and he's either Neutral or Evil depending upon his capacity for moral judgment.

Truly the question is not what his alignment is from his actions, but asking simply if he's smart enough to qualify as evil or if he's got that blanket neutrality thing that an animal has.

An additional possibility is that in addition to having a starting INT off 3-5, Thog's been brain-damaged or otherwise messed with so he really is the epitome of low int. But that's an even bigger kettle of fish than what I've already skirted.

[spargel]

He seems more chaotic neutral to me. If Nale was Good, Thog would be doing Good things.

[Snake-Aes]

He seems more chaotic neutral to me. If Nale was Good, Thog would be doing Good things.

You mean the same way Belkar does with Roy's leash?

Thog wouldn't do less evil because of a lack of incluence. In the lack of evil schemes from Nale, he'd just rage bore and destroy everything.

[MoonBeam]

I don't think that thog is Evil
...
He cared for his dwarf puppy, too
...


Yeah. Notice that every non-evil character in the comic (or D&D generally) is having his/her own slave on a leash and humiliating him/her.

Thog is most probably definitely Lawful Good. No questions here...

[spargel]

You mean the same way Belkar does with Roy's leash?


No. Did I post that?



Thog wouldn't do less evil because of a lack of incluence. In the lack of evil schemes from Nale, he'd just rage bore and destroy everything.

He seems to be more the kind of person who just does whatever other people tell him.

[Snake-Aes]

No. Did I post that?

It was a rhetorical question




He seems to be more the kind of person who just does whatever other people tell him.

This is the thing, we *know* he enjoys some very evil things, and his sense of respect for others? The dwarf-puppy has a few choice words about it. That's why I compared him to Belkar. He might be leashed, but that wouldn't stop him from being evil.

[pnewman]

In comic #387 Thog says "Thog wonders how Thog will cope with life outside jailhouse walls. Prison changed Thog."

Before he was imprisoned Thog committed many acts of evil, but now Thog wonders how he will behave and claims that he has changed.

What if what changed was his alignment? (this would mean that Elan's statement about them being 'from different ends of the alignment spectrum' is wrong, but we know Elan is not a 100% reliable and objective narrative voice).

What can we say about Thog's alignment based only on comics past #387?

Other than hitting Haley with the door, which was arguably motivated by his loyalty to Nale not his alignment, I don't see any evil things that Thog has done. While this is probably due primarily to the fact that we haven't seen him do much of anything it is nevertheless possible that prison changed Thog from CE to CN. Let's wait for him to do more evil before concluding that this has not happened.

[Snake-Aes]

In comic #387 Thog says "Thog wonders how Thog will cope with life outside jailhouse walls. Prison changed Thog."

Before he was imprisoned Thog committed many acts of evil, but now Thog wonders how he will behave and claims that he has changed.

What if what changed was his alignment? (this would mean that Elan's statement about them being 'from different ends of the alignment spectrum' is wrong, but we know Elan is not a 100% reliable and objective narrative voice).

What can we say about Thog's alignment based only on comics past #387?

Other than hitting Haley with the door, which was arguably motivated by his loyalty to Nale not his alignment, I don't see any evil things that Thog has done. While this is probably due primarily to the fact that we haven't seen him do much of anything it is nevertheless possible that prison changed Thog from CE to CN. Let's wait for him to do more evil before concluding that this has not happened.
... that strip comment was a joke.
Plus, look at his grin while he bashes Haley with a door. He is utterly satisfied at doing so.
He was in a conundrum, Elan convinced him they could enjoy ice cream together, and Nale told Thog to stop the enemy. Only Haley was not directly attached to him. The solution? A Door.

[Ehra]

It has not happened.

[Morty]

This thread is yet another proff that Chaotic Neutral alignment is there for people who are obviously evil, but are funny and/or protagonists, so the audience is reluctant to call them for what they are.

[Snake-Aes]

This thread is yet another proff that Chaotic Neutral alignment is there for people who are obviously evil, but are funny and/or protagonists, so the audience is reluctant to call them for what they are.

:/ I hate how people list "CN" in the hopes of getting away with whatever they want. A CN person would still not feel any good for harming someone else without a huge motivation, nor would spit on the police just because a cop looked funny at him.
It's more likely to be the kind of person who looks at something and says "why the hell can('t) I do this?"
The good-evil axis is still there!

The artisan apprentice that likes to slip away during his master's busier times to meet his girl and maybe set the street vendors a prank is chaotic neutral. A mercenary who is offered a bigger reward for giving up a chase is chaotic neutral. If he was offered instead to betray and kill the former contractor, and accepted, then he'd be evil.

[spargel]

It was a rhetorical question

Ah, my least favorite kind of question.



This is the thing, we *know* he enjoys some very evil things, and his sense of respect for others? The dwarf-puppy has a few choice words about it. That's why I compared him to Belkar. He might be leashed, but that wouldn't stop him from being evil.

What you know and what I know appear to contradict each other. Nale and Sabine are like parents to Thog. He'll do pretty much whatever they say.


The artisan apprentice that likes to slip away during his master's busier times to meet his girl and maybe set the street vendors a prank is chaotic neutral. A mercenary who is offered a bigger reward for giving up a chase is chaotic neutral. If he was offered instead to betray and kill the former contractor, and accepted, then he'd be evil.

Aren't assassins able to be chaotic neutral?

[Ehra]

Evil only for assassins, but that doesn't necessarily mean an assassin has to have taken the assassin class (Miko's whole Samurai thing, for example).


Also, comparing Thog to a child doesn't make sense because Thog ISN'T a child. If Elan had been risen by his dad and was taught to be evil, would he be be any less evil just because he's child like?

[spargel]

Evil only for assassins.

I guess I shouldn't trust Baldur's Gate for alignments.



Also, comparing Thog to a child doesn't make sense because Thog ISN'T a child. If Elan had been risen by his dad and was taught to be evil, would he be be any less evil just because he's child like?

Thog is a child, mentally.

Teaching someone to be evil? I thought people were born with their alignments in D&D.

[Kish]

I guess I shouldn't trust Baldur's Gate for alignments.

Not even if we were discussing 2ed. (And in any case, in Baldur's Gate 2 the assassin kit comes with no more alignment restrictions than the base thief class.)


Teaching someone to be evil? I thought people were born with their alignments in D&D.
Given that I know you've been told at least once that isn't the case, would there be any point at all to telling you again? The creature being born with the listed alignment and exceptions being extremely rare is a special feature of those few races whose alignments are listed as Always X Alignment. Infants generally lack any capacity for actions based on morality, and thus, like animals, are Neutral, whatever they will grow up to be; and literally anyone's alignment can change, even fiends. The bizarre "alignment determined at birth and immutable" world you argue for has not a single paragraph of support anywhere in D&D.

[Jaltum]

Nale and Sabine are like parents to Thog. He'll do pretty much whatever they say.


He seems to be more the kind of person who just does whatever other people tell him.


"I believe Thog is Chaotic Evil, but that he is a candidate to be redeemed under the right circumstances, if he was in better company".


But in some cases some people have such low mental capabilities that sufficiently clever and charismatic people can manipulate them.

Once again: Nale has to anxiously keep Thog occupied to stop him from doing inconvenient evil things at the wrong time. Nale and Sabine are TERRIFIED of what will happen if Thog finds out they're running out of ice cream.

The idea that Thog is only evil because of Nale's influence is wildly in defiance of the actual events in the strip. The team-up with Nale lets him do more evil more successfully, that's all.


In comic #387 Thog says "Thog wonders how Thog will cope with life outside jailhouse walls. Prison changed Thog."


(this would mean that Elan's statement about them being 'from different ends of the alignment spectrum' is wrong, but we know Elan is not a 100% reliable and objective narrative voice).

Emphasis mine.

Why would be locked up for thirty minutes change Thog? He's been locked up before, when the Order captured them the first time, for longer!

[Ehra]

Thog is a child, mentally.

Teaching someone to be evil? I thought people were born with their alignments in D&D.

And Elan hasn't mentally been a child for the majority of the strip? The only noticeable difference is that Elan is good and isn't afraid of girls.

And, no, you're not born with your alignment in D&D. Even if that were true then that would mean children could be born evil, which goes against the whole "Thog can't be evil because he's too childlike" argument. In D&D, you're most likely born True Neutral and then your actions throughout life bring you to whatever alignment you end up at.

Your actions aren't determined by your alignment, it's your alignment that is a direct reflection of your actions. This is why I hate when people shackle themselves and others to their alignment and say "But you're Lawful Good, you can't do that!" Yes they can, it just means they may not be so lawful or good after. The only time it should mater is if an alignment switch will cause you to lose class features or your class comes with some kind of code you have to follow. Even then, they should be allowed to do what they want, just made aware of any potential punishment.

[Snake-Aes]

What you know and what I know appear to contradict each other. Nale and Sabine are like parents to Thog. He'll do pretty much whatever they say.

That has little meaning. Thog is fully capable of telling right from wrong, his intellect is enough to qualify for alignments.



Aren't assassins able to be chaotic neutral?

Not the prestige class at least, those are always "Any Evil"

[spargel]

Not even if we were discussing 2ed. (And in any case, in Baldur's Gate 2 the assassin kit comes with no more alignment restrictions than the base thief class.)

Given that I know you've been told at least once that isn't the case, would there be any point at all to telling you again? The creature being born with the listed alignment and exceptions being extremely rare is a special feature of those few races whose alignments are listed as Always X Alignment. Infants generally lack any capacity for actions based on morality, and thus, like animals, are Neutral, whatever they will grow up to be; and literally anyone's alignment can change, even fiends. The bizarre "alignment determined at birth and immutable" world you argue for has not a single paragraph of support anywhere in D&D.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me, although I'm pretty sure Baldur's gate assassins can only be CN or Evil, while thieves can be anything except lawful.


And Elan hasn't mentally been a child for the majority of the strip? The only noticeable difference is that Elan is good and isn't afraid of girls.


Sorry, let me change that. Thog has the mentality of an infant.



And, no, you're not born with your alignment in D&D. Even if that were true then that would mean children could be born evil, which goes against the whole "Thog can't be evil because he's too childlike" argument. In D&D, you're most likely born True Neutral and then your actions throughout life bring you to whatever alignment you end up at.


Always Chaotic Evil Black Dragons?

When you hear about a mountain lion attacking someone, do you think "That mountain lion is evil", or do you think "That mountain lion is acting on instinct"?


That has little meaning. Thog is fully capable of telling right from wrong, his intellect is enough to qualify for alignments.

Thog would qualify as a severely mentally retarded person in real life. So no, I don't think he has enough intelligence.

[Snake-Aes]

Thog would qualify as a severely mentally retarded person in real life. So no, I don't think he has enough intelligence.

He has a language. He can even think optimally, and multiclassed into fighter.
He can follow simple spoken instructions. He knows what "arrest" is, and that he's going against someone's will by resisting it. His inteligence score is greater than that of an animal. By D&D definition, any intelligence superior to that of an animal is capable of moral decisions.

Heck - when Nale mentioned making Elan suffer, he KNEW what suffering is, and that making him listen to Celine Dion would cause suffering.

[spargel]

He has a language. He can even think optimally, and multiclassed into fighter.
He can follow simple spoken instructions. He knows what "arrest" is, and that he's going against someone's will by resisting it. His inteligence score is greater than that of an animal. By D&D definition, any intelligence superior to that of an animal is capable of moral decisions.

Heck - when Nale mentioned making Elan suffer, he KNEW what suffering is, and that making him listen to Celine Dion would cause suffering.

He speaks his language horribly. Someone else probably told him to multiclass into a fighter, or else that would probably be the only tactical decision he's ever made.
Even other animals can follow simple instructions, have an idea of what a word means, know that they are going against someone's will, and feel suffering.

By the way, different animals have different intelligences. There might actually be some animals that are more intelligent than Thog.

[Ehra]

Always Chaotic Evil Black Dragons?

When you hear about a mountain lion attacking someone, do you think "That mountain lion is evil", or do you think "That mountain lion is acting on instinct"?

Mortal humanoids are COMPLETELY different from dragons, animals, or beings of "pure good, evil, law, or chaos." I shouldn't have to point this out, but that's what happens when someone who clearly doesn't know DnD mechanics tries to argue them.

Thog is evil, there's no way to argue otherwise unless you're going to try saying he's a polymorphed lion or something. If the only argument you can come up with involves "but what if" then you don't have an argument. You do nothing but evil deeds then your alignment is evil, it's as simple as that.


Thog would qualify as a severely mentally retarded person in real life. So no, I don't think he has enough intelligence.

We're not talking about real life. Real life morals and DnD morals do not mesh.

[Kish]

Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me, although I'm pretty sure Baldur's gate assassins can only be CN or Evil,

If you still have BG2 on your computer, I'd suggest you load it up and check. I played it yesterday and plan to play it in about five minutes today.
Generic thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.
Swashbuckler kit thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.
Bounty Hunter kit thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.
Assassin kit thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.

[Snake-Aes]

He speaks his language horribly. Someone else probably told him to multiclass into a fighter, or else that would probably be the only tactical decision he's ever made.
Even other animals can follow simple instructions, have an idea of what a word means, know that they are going against someone's will, and feel suffering.

You missed what I meant with suffering here. He KNEW he could make Elan suffer, and knew that suffering was not a nice thing, yet he seemed quite thrilled at the opportunity. Doesn't that strike to you as evil? He had full understanding of it.


By the way, different animals have different intelligences. There might actually be some animals that are more intelligent than Thog.


# Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
Thog has enough intelligence to take on moral decisions. It doesn't matter if it's "3". 3 Is enough to have an alignment other than Neutral.

[Susano-wo]

EDIT - I guess you could sum up my feeling as saying "I believe Thog is Chaotic Evil, but that he is a candidate to be redeemed under the right circumstances, if he was in better company".

I agree. If Thog developed a little thing called empathy, he could be pretty easily steered toward neutral, though I don't know if I'd buy good. He'd be too much into, how to put it, his own circle of acquaintances to really show enough altruism to be 'good.' I can easily see him developing the idea of not needlessly inflicting pain, though.

And yeah, being able to understand...you know what? I'm done now. :D The case for CE is pretty airtight, I think, and me further weighing in would be a useless exercise and a waaste of time ^ ^

[spargel]

If you still have BG2 on your computer, I'd suggest you load it up and check. I played it yesterday and plan to play it in about five minutes today.
Generic thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.
Swashbuckler kit thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.
Bounty Hunter kit thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.
Assassin kit thieves: Can be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil.

Yeah, I just checked. You are correct.


Mortal humanoids are COMPLETELY different from dragons, animals, or beings of "pure good, evil, law, or chaos." I shouldn't have to point this out, but that's what happens when someone who clearly doesn't know DnD mechanics tries to argue them.


Then why was familicide considered an extremely evil act?



Thog is evil, there's no way to argue otherwise unless you're going to try saying he's a polymorphed lion or something. If the only argument you can come up with involves "but what if" then you don't have an argument. You do nothing but evil deeds then your alignment is evil, it's as simple as that.

I guess the mentality behind the deeds has nothing to do with it in D&D?
It's not really a "but what if" thing either. When Thog was with Elan, he did a good deed by helping him rescue Haley, until Nale came back anyways.


You missed what I meant with suffering here. He KNEW he could make Elan suffer, and knew that suffering was not a nice thing, yet he seemed quite thrilled at the opportunity. Doesn't that strike to you as evil? He had full understanding of it.

You're going to have to show me which strip you're talking about.


We're not talking about real life. Real life morals and DnD morals do not mesh.


Real life morals and OOTS morals seem to be more compatible.


Thog has enough intelligence to take on moral decisions. It doesn't matter if it's "3". 3 Is enough to have an alignment other than Neutral.

Then I guess Thog just simply never thought about moral decisions before.

[Snake-Aes]

Then why was familicide considered an extremely evil act?

Dragons are sentient beings. Killing sentient beings for no good reason is evil.


I guess the mentality behind the deeds has nothing to do with it in D&D?
It's not really a "but what if" thing either. When Thog was with Elan, he did a good deed by helping him rescue Haley, until Nale came back anyways.

That was never Thog's goal. Thog wanted to rescue NALE.


You're going to have to show me which strip you're talking about.

The celine dion strip. Look at his smile while he offers Nale a Celine Dion disk. If that's not malice, I don't know what is.


Real life morals and OOTS morals seem to be more compatible.

There'll always be a blur.


Then I guess Thog just simply never thought about moral decisions before.
That is just the difference between being an alignment or choosing it. That doesn't make him less evil.

[JT Jag]

Thog goes on boredom-fueled murderous rampages if he doesn't get his ice-cream.

If that doesn't encapsulate CE, I don't know what does.

[spargel]

Dragons are sentient beings. Killing sentient beings for no good reason is evil.


All of them except for about 2-3 were beings of pure evil. I wouldn't expect it to push her so far down that even with whatever good acts she did, she would still have a 50-50 chance of going to Hell.

By the way, are those Paladins that killed that village of goblins fallen or evil-aligned yet?



That was never Thog's goal. Thog wanted to rescue NALE.


Right, nevermind then.



The celine dion strip. Look at his smile while he offers Nale a Celine Dion disk. If that's not malice, I don't know what is.


Strip number.



That is just the difference between being an alignment or choosing it. That doesn't make him less evil.


The point is: He has no concept of Good and Evil.

[Snake-Aes]

The point is: He has no concept of Good and Evil.

He does, that's an universal rule.

[Kish]

All of them except for about 2-3 were beings of pure evil. I wouldn't expect it to push her so far down that even with whatever good acts she did, she would still have a 50-50 chance of going to Hell.
Then you should come up with an answer to your own question, as you don't like the answer someone else gave you.


The point is: He has no concept of Good and Evil.
Proof by assertion? I would be quite surprised if Thog didn't know, as surely as Elan knows he's Chaotic Good, Nale knows that he's Lawful Evil, and Roy knows that he's Lawful Good, that he is Chaotic Evil.

[spargel]

He does, that's an universal rule.

If he does, than it must be dormant or something.

[Morty]

If he does, than it must be dormant or something.

That or, you know, he's Chaotic Evil and perfectly aware of it.

[spargel]

That or, you know, he's Chaotic Evil and perfectly aware of it.

Possibly, or, maybe, you know, he's Chaotic Neutral.

The line between CN and CE is pretty thin.

[Morty]

Possibly, or, maybe, you know, he's Chaotic Neutral.

The line between CN and CE is pretty thin.

No, it's not. A CN person is an impulsive person going by his or her desires, but with some moral restraints left. Thog kills for fun, which is CE in a nutshell. And he's a sentient, if very stupid, being, so he's perfectly aware of moralty and alignment.

[Snake-Aes]

No, it's not. A CN person is an impulsive person going by his or her desires, but with some moral restraints left. Thog kills for fun, which is CE in a nutshell. And he's a sentient, if very stupid, being, so he's perfectly aware of moralty and alignment.

CN characters value the others' well being just as much as any Neutral character. If you want a general reference, almost everyone in the world is Neutral: They don't like to suffer, don't like to cause it to others, and aren't willing to suffer personal losses(be it time, money, or a real injury) to help others he isn't attached to.

[Kish]

Possibly, or, maybe, you know, he's Chaotic Neutral.

The line between CN and CE is pretty thin.
I find this assertion hard to reconcile with your ongoing stance of not understanding what Vaarsuvius did wrong by killing dozens of strange black dragons.

Could you possibly make up your mind whether Chaotic Evil is barely distinguishable from Chaotic Neutral, or constitutes justification for killing out of hand?

[SadisticFishing]

Possibly, or, maybe, you know, he's Chaotic Neutral.

The line between CN and CE is pretty thin.

No it isn't. Neither is the line between LG and LN, or LN and LE, or NG and N, and N and NE... et cetera.

The alignment system exists for a reason, and you are playing with people who completely misunderstand CN.

Which are really really common >_<.

[Morty]

CN characters value the others' well being just as much as any Neutral character. If you want a general reference, almost everyone in the world is Neutral: They don't like to suffer, don't like to cause it to others, and aren't willing to suffer personal losses(be it time, money, or a real injury) to help others he isn't attached to.

I don't adhere to the school of though that most people are Neutral; it doesn't make much sense to have an alignment system if most people fit in 30% of its categories. But it's beside the point here - Thog is CE no matter the boundraries of CN alignment.

[Porthos]

Possibly, or, maybe, you know, he's Chaotic Neutral.

The line between CN and CE is pretty thin.

God, I hate to wade into here, but...

IIRC spargel you have (self-admittedly) very little knowledge of DnD. Just what you've taken from various games and comics (and the inherently contradictory info on this message board :smallwink:).

Perhaps discussing things in such absolute terms when you aren't familiar with DnD isn't exactly wise. :smalltongue:

Anyway, Thog is evil because he enjoys wanton indiscriminate death and destruction. It's that simple.

Could he become CN with the right role models? Perhaps.

But your alignment isn't based on what might happen under a hypothetical set of circumstances. It's based on a combination of personal philosophical outlook and actions that you have taken so far in your life. Should Thog "fall into" the right crowd, then, yes, his alignment might change.

Or not.

After all Juilo Scoundrél was rather dubious of Thog's chances of staying a reliable companion in a bonus strip in WaXP. And it turns out he was right. :smallwink: It is certainly possible that no matter what anyone might do, Thog will always be a ticking timebomb of rage and destruction waiting to go off.

Now I will also stipulate that Thog is much more suited for Pandemonium (the CE(N) plane) rather than the Abyss (CE) or Carceri (NE(C)). In other words, yes, he is more Chaotic than Evil.

But he is still Evil. Both by actions and philosophical outlook.

[spargel]

No, it's not. A CN person is an impulsive person going by his or her desires, but with some moral restraints left. Thog kills for fun, which is CE in a nutshell. And he's a sentient, if very stupid, being, so he's perfectly aware of moralty and alignment.

I thought a CN character was an impulsive person going by his/her desires with no or little moral restraints, while a CE character was the same as the above, except most of their impulses are evil.


I find this assertion hard to reconcile with your ongoing stance of not understanding what Vaarsuvius did wrong by killing dozens of strange black dragons.

Could you possibly make up your mind whether Chaotic Evil is barely distinguishable from Chaotic Neutral, or constitutes justification for killing out of hand?

Hmm? I don't understand what you're trying to say. I'm just trying to say that Thog doesn't really have any concept of Good and Evil, and he could easily be made to do good acts if he had good friends.


No it isn't. Neither is the line between LG and LN, or LN and LE, or NG and N, and N and NE... et cetera.

The alignment system exists for a reason, and you are playing with people who completely misunderstand CN.

Which are really really common >_<.

Great, because alignments confuse me.

How much of a difference is there between NG and CG, NE and CE, and TN and CN?


God, I hate to wade into here, but...

IIRC spargel you have (self-admittedly) very little knowledge of DnD. Just what you've taken from various games and comics (and the inherently contradictory info on this message board ).

Perhaps discussing things in such absolute terms when you aren't familiar with DnD isn't exactly wise.

Anyway, Thog is evil because he enjoys wanton indiscriminate death and destruction. It's that simple.

Could he become CN with the right role models? Perhaps.

But your alignment isn't based on what might happen under a hypothetical set of circumstances. It's based on a combination of personal philosophical outlook and actions that you have taken so far in your life. Should Thog "fall into" the right crowd, then, yes, his alignment might change.

Or not.

After all Juilo Scoundrél was rather dubious of Thog's chances of staying a reliable companion in a bonus strip in WaXP. And it turns out he was right. It is certainly possible that no matter what anyone might do, Thog will always be a ticking timebomb of rage and destruction waiting to go off.

Now I will also stipulate that Thog is much more suited for Pandemonium (the CE(N) plane) rather than the Abyss (CE) or Carceri (NE(C)). In other words, yes, he is more Chaotic than Evil.

But he is still Evil. Both by actions and philosophical outlook.

Thog's actions are obviously chaotic evil.
His philosophical outlook seems to be more neutral though.

[Snake-Aes]

I don't adhere to the school of though that most people are Neutral; it doesn't make much sense to have an alignment system if most people fit in 30% of its categories. But it's beside the point here - Thog is CE no matter the boundraries of CN alignment.

How many people would help someone that stumbled on you randomly, and looks desperate?
Good people would.Neutral people would fear the consequences.
The thing is, being Good is about being selfless and not hesitating to help others without expecting anything else. It's true altruism. Most people just don't fall under that category.

And that doesn't remove any credit to the alignment system either. The fact that few people are Good, or Evil, only increase the exceptionalness that it is to be Good or Evil.

[Morty]

Thog's actions are obviously chaotic evil.
His philosophical outlook seems to be more neutral though.

What philosophical outlook? Thog doesn't have one. But his actions are Chaotic Evil, and that's what counts.


How many people would help someone that stumbled on you randomly, and looks desperate?
Good people would.Neutral people would fear the consequences.
The thing is, being Good is about being selfless and not hesitating to help others without expecting anything else. It's true altruism. Most people just don't fall under that category.

First, by my reasoning, some Good people wouldn't help him, and some Neutral people would. Because alignment doesn't replace personality and people are capable of acts contrary to their alignment. Second, and it's the most important, being Good doesn't require true altruism. It merely requires being a good person.


And that doesn't remove any credit to the alignment system either. The fact that few people are Good, or Evil, only increase the exceptionalness that it is to be Good or Evil.

Right, and 60% of the available alignments shouldn't be "exceptional". Especially since there are races in which majority of the individuals are of given alignment.

[Porthos]

I'm just trying to say that Thog doesn't really have any concept of Good and Evil

Could you provide some sort of in-comic evidence to back up your assertion? :smallsmile:

At the very least, one has to admit that Thog knows Guilt from Innocence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html), I would think.

Also, does this mean that if someone was around Thog-like intellegence (or whatever) but went around doing good deeds and acted with sunny outlook, you'd say that they weren't good?

After all, good for the goose as they say.

Personally I think it would suck to be sent to the CN afterlife when I was supposed to go to a CG one just because I was a bit dim. But that's just me. :smallamused:

[spargel]

How many people would help someone that stumbled on you randomly, and looks desperate?


A lot, actually. Just not at the cost of their own lives.



And that doesn't remove any credit to the alignment system either. The fact that few people are Good, or Evil, only increase the exceptionalness that it is to be Good or Evil.


The alignment system is too black and white. Some people are simply less altruistic than others.


What philosophical outlook? Thog doesn't have one. But his actions are Chaotic Evil, and that's what counts.


If Thog doesn't have one, wouldn't that make him neutral, like animals?



Could you provide some sort of in-comic evidence to back up your assertion?


Um, just about everything Thog says and thinks about is with an infant mentality, and infants don't really have any concept of Good or Evil.



At the very least, one has to admit that Thog knows Guilt from Innocence, I would think.

Also, does this mean that if someone was around Thog-like intellegence (or whatever) but went around doing good deeds and acted with sunny outlook, you'd say that they weren't good?

After all, good for the goose as they say.

Personally I think it would suck to be sent to the CN afterlife when I was supposed to go to a CG one just because I was a bit dim. But that's just me.

It's usually the motive that matters. Would you say V was Good during her soul splice because she teleported the entire fleet to a safe place because she wanted to shut them up?

[Snake-Aes]

Thog's actions are obviously chaotic evil.
His philosophical outlook seems to be more neutral though.

his "Philosophical outlook" is just as evil. He ignores completely the cries for mercy of his puppy slave dwarf. He is shown to understand it afterwards by the way he grins wickedly at the prospect of torturing Elan with a Celine Dion disc, and he kills because it's fun to kill. That is evil, pure and simple.





Now, on the CN thing. on the good-evil axis, a Neutral person is your everyday random person. He'd rather not cause trouble to others, since he'd rather live somewhere where he is respected(which is a Good or Neutral environment, therefore they avoid Evil), and just wouldn't help anyone. He is fully capable of feeling compassion and sharing some of the pain of people he doesn't know but see suffering, but he won't go out of his way to help them.

on chaotic/lawful... It's a little harder to determine, but a chaotic person prizes the individual, and doesn't "see the point" in an organized society, or more specifically the bureaucratic part of it(like the rules, the traditions and the etiquette. Those don't specifically attract his interest), and value freedom of choices.

[Snake-Aes]

First, by my reasoning, some Good people wouldn't help him, and some Neutral people would. Because alignment doesn't replace personality and people are capable of acts contrary to their alignment. Second, and it's the most important, being Good doesn't require true altruism. It merely requires being a good person.

There is this whole confusion here. If the guy is willing to help a total stranger out of compassion, he's more likely good than neutral. The alignment represents what he is, not the opposite: He's Good because he sympathizes with strangers, and would rather see everyone around him well and good.

People make claims for both, but I can't see people saying "well i'm Neutral, but I want to be Good, so I will act Good"... Instead, the person acts in a way and there will be an alignment that happens to represent it.



Right, and 60% of the available alignments shouldn't be "exceptional". Especially since there are races in which majority of the individuals are of given alignment.
And doesn't this represent exactly the alien reasoning that they have in comparison to humans? You are talking about a whole different race of sentient beings.
A Dwarven society will feel too strict for most humans, but it's just natural to them. Same for Drow. Most humans would feel terrified in having to live there, but a Drow would more likely be thrilled.



A lot, actually. Just not at the cost of their own lives.
That's my point. A good person is much more likely to take personal risks to help others than a neutral person. Most regular people just won't do that.

[Porthos]

What philosophical outlook? Thog doesn't have one.

Eh. :smalltongue: Since I'm the one who introduced that pharse into this conversation just substitute "philosophical outlook" with "how person views the world (and himself)" if one wishes.

Everyone has some sort of philosophical outlook of the world, even if it's only rudimentry.
And in Thog's case it is:

A) Mayhem and Killing things is fun!
B) Having friends is fun!
C) Killing things is fun!

<obligatory geek reference>
:nale: Wait.... You said killing twice.

:thog: i really like killing.
</obligatory geek reference>

Yes, Thog likes to have fun (see the often quoted line about ice cream). Problem is, most of the things he finds "fun" are on the evil side of the street. :smallwink:

[Snake-Aes]

To those who kept asking me to show what strip was the celine dion one... strip 258 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html).

[Ehra]

All of them except for about 2-3 were beings of pure evil. I wouldn't expect it to push her so far down that even with whatever good acts she did, she would still have a 50-50 chance of going to Hell.

So if the spell instead were to kill every evil human on the planet instead, would you still say you wouldn't expect that to be evil enough to push V's alignment? And I really have no idea where you're going with this. Evil dragons are likely born evil, or at least are almost guaranteed to become evil by the time they're old enough to do much. Your PC/NPC humans/humanoids are not, unless you want to say that children can be born evil which means Thog is evil no matter how childish you think he is.


By the way, are those Paladins that killed that village of goblins fallen or evil-aligned yet?

Whether that was actually evil or not is irrelevant. The Gods in OOTS have plenty of reason to NOT punish the paladins for doing what they did.


The point is: He has no concept of Good and Evil.

Until you can actually prove this with out any "what ifs" and instead with substantial evidence found in the comic, no one else has any reason to take your word on this.

Thog doesn't care about the future consequences of his actions and will kill whoever he wants whenever he wants. This does not mean "doesn't understand what he's doing." It means he's evil and doesn't care.

And, no, philosophical outlook doesn't mean as much as your actions. The classic example is a village infected with a horrible plague. There's no way to cure it, so the cleric runs around the village killing any who are infected so no one else gets it. He thinks he's helping everyone by preventing the spread of the plague, but under standard DnD rules this is an evil act.

[spargel]

Porthos, I edited my last post.


his "Philosophical outlook" is just as evil. He ignores completely the cries for mercy of his puppy slave dwarf. He is shown to understand it afterwards by the way he grins wickedly at the prospect of torturing Elan with a Celine Dion disc, and he kills because it's fun to kill. That is evil, pure and simple.


If he was really that evil, I would think that he would have gone on many more killing rampages by himself. He was pretty tame while he was following Elan around.

There's plenty of people in real life who enjoy killing and torture. They're just able to control their impulses because they have a morality system. Thog hasn't really been shown to have one.


So if the spell instead were to kill every evil human on the planet instead, would you still say you wouldn't expect that to be evil enough to push V's alignment? And I really have no idea where you're going with this. Evil dragons are likely born evil, or at least are almost guaranteed to become evil by the time they're old enough to do much. Humanoids are not, unless you want to say that children can be born evil which means Thog is evil no matter how childish you think he is.


I thought humans were different from dragons.

If children can be born evil, I would just say Thog was born neutral.

[Snake-Aes]

Porthos, I edited my last post.



If he was really that evil, I would think that he would have gone on many more killing rampages by himself. He was pretty tame while he was following Elan around.

He had a set goal(rescue nale) and Elan did keep him busy.

[spargel]

He had a set goal(rescue nale) and Elan did keep him busy.

I would at least expect him to hack and slash someone while breaking out of prison.

And after reuniting with Nale, he didn't say "Yay, lets go and kill people." Instead, he said something about ice cream.


And, no, philosophical outlook doesn't mean as much as your actions. The classic example is a village infected with a horrible plague. There's no way to cure it, so the cleric runs around the village killing any who are infected so no one else gets it. He thinks he's helping everyone by preventing the spread of the plague, but under standard DnD rules this is an evil act.

Really? The people infected are probably going to die soon anyways, there's no way to cure it, and killing them would prevent the spread of the plague. Unless if there is a better way that probably involves magic to prevent the spread.

[Snake-Aes]

I would at least expect him to hack and slash someone while breaking out of prison.

And after reuniting with Nale, he didn't say "Yay, lets go and kill people." Instead, he said something about ice cream.

Because he likes Nale. He wants to have Ice cream with Nale. That has nothing to do with the fact he enjoys hacking people with axes.

[Ehra]

Thog has already said that he "delays boredom driven rampage only for you (ice cream)" or something to that effect (I may not have the first word exact).

And not killing someone doesn't magically mean he's not evil. That's like saying I didn't rob anyone while going through the checkout line, so I must not be a thief.


edit: Anyway, there's no point in this. He ignores half the points that he can't counter and then he repeats the same "I would assume" mantra over and over for everything else. He's not going to believe anything else, as nonsensical as it may be.

[spargel]

Because he likes Nale. He wants to have Ice cream with Nale. That has nothing to do with the fact he enjoys hacking people with axes.

I haven't ever really seen him go on any axe rampages without Nale's consent.

Enjoying hacking people with axes doesn't necessarily make you evil. It's whether or not you can control your impulses. Thog does seem to be able to control his desire to hack people, and he doesn't do it unless Nale tells him to.

[Ehra]

Xykon is able to control his impulses to not just turn his entire hobgoblin army into undead, I guess he's not really evil after all. I mean, he's just a poor soul being tricked into helping Redclock with his evil plot.

[Kish]

If children can be born evil, I would just say Thog was born neutral.
As far as I can tell, no matter what, you would just say Thog is and was and has always been neutral.

[spargel]

Thog has already said that he "delays boredom driven rampage only for you (ice cream)" or something to that effect (I may not have the first word exact).

And not killing someone doesn't magically mean he's not evil. That's like saying I didn't rob anyone while going through the checkout line, so I must not be a thief.


I don't think he's actually killed anyone without Nale telling him to.



edit: Anyway, there's no point in this. He ignores half the points that he can't counter and then he repeats the same "I would assume" mantra over and over for everything else. He's not going to believe anything else, as nonsensical as it may be.

That's probably because you post a new post while I'm in the middle of typing my own, and D&D has some pretty nonsensical rules.

People assume things all the time. Some people just admit it more than others.


Xykon is able to control his impulses to not just turn his entire hobgoblin army into undead, I guess he's not really evil after all. I mean, he's just a poor soul being tricked into helping Redclock with his evil plot.

Xykon doesn't have the mind of an infant. Quit twisting my words please.


As far as I can tell, no matter what, you would just say Thog is and was and has always been neutral.

Probably. Unless Thog says something like "thog love being evil".

[Snake-Aes]

Sir, you are just grasping at straws now. Thog's deeds are Evil, and he enjoys them, and so far you have yet to come with an irrefutable proof that he is not evil.

I don't think he's actually killed anyone without Nale telling him to.

If you check one of Nale+Sabine conversations, they actively STOP him from doing so, because he's that dangerous.

[spargel]

Sir, you are just grasping at straws now. Thog's deeds are Evil, and he enjoys them, and so far you have yet to come with an irrefutable proof that he is not evil.

If you check one of Nale+Sabine conversations, they actively STOP him from doing so, because he's that dangerous.

Possibly. I don't really know every line of dialog between Nale, Sabine, and Thog.

[Snake-Aes]

Possibly. I don't really know every line of dialog between Nale, Sabine, and Thog.

oh, little ice cream friends! thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)

[Herald Alberich]

Every day I pray to my dark fiendish overlords that he doesn't learn that we're out of sprinkles. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)

edit: :smallsigh:

[Ehra]

That's probably because you post a new post while I'm in the middle of typing my own, and D&D has some pretty nonsensical rules.

That'd be fine if you could actually go back and reply to it then.

Whether you like the rules or not doesn't change what they are and that you don't understand what you're talking about.




Xykon doesn't have the mind of an infant. Quit twisting my words please.

Show the proof that Thog has the mind of an infant and isn't just dumb. You've still yet to shown how Elan and Thog had any difference in mental capacity for the majority of the comic.

Both Thog and Elan are shown to be child like because of their low intelligence and wisdom (we don't know what Elan's wisdom actually is, but it can't be anything above average). This does not mean they actually have the minds of children. They're still fully grown adults and are fully responsible for their actions, just because Thog is willing to take orders from someone evil doesn't exempt him from his evil deeds.

Oh, and I love the thing about twisting words. How about this:


I thought humans were different from dragons.

When I was plainly talking about PCs/NPCs, which are either born without an alignment or are born True Neutral, vs Always Chaotic Evil monsters which are most likely born chaotic evil. They're still both sentient creatures, but one is "Always Chaotic Evil" and the other isn't. And you still refuse to answer the question I asked there.


Again, the ONLY way Thog could EVER be Neutral is if he performed a balance of both good and evil deeds. We have seen him do arguably one good deed (want to save Nale) while everything else has been evil. That's not how Neutral alignment works. Having a mental condition (the only way Thog could have the "mind of a child") does not magically make you neutral.

[spargel]

oh, little ice cream friends! thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html)

Great, my argument just got ruined by a gag.

You can forget most of my posts in this thread then.


That'd be fine if you could actually go back and reply to it then.

Whether you like the rules or not doesn't change what they are and that you don't understand what you're talking about.

I usually edit them into my old posts.


Show the proof that Thog has the mind of an infant and isn't just dumb. You've still yet to shown how Elan and Thog had any difference in mental capacity for the majority of the comic.


Elan has been shown to think about Good and Evil when choosing to save Nale. Thog hasn't shown any thoughts about Good or Evil yet.



Both Thog and Elan are shown to be child like because of their low intelligence and wisdom (we don't know what Elan's wisdom actually is, but it can't be anything above average). This does not mean they actually have the minds of children. They're still fully grown adults and are fully responsible for their actions, just because Thog is willing to take orders from someone evil doesn't exempt him from his evil deeds.

Apparently, you're able to plead insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html).


When I was plainly talking about PCs/NPCs, which are either born without an alignment or are born True Neutral, vs Always Chaotic Evil monsters which are most likely born chaotic evil. They're still both sentient creatures, but one is "Always Chaotic Evil" and the other isn't.


That's a weird definition of "Always".



Again, the ONLY way Thog could EVER be Neutral is if he performed a balance of both good and evil deeds. We have seen him do arguably one good deed (want to save Nale) while everything else has been evil. That's not how Neutral alignment works. Having a mental condition (the only way Thog could have the "mind of a child") does not magically make you neutral.


Really? I thought that was part of the reason why animals were neutral.

[Snake-Aes]

Great, my argument just got ruined by a gag.

You can forget most of my posts in this thread then.

<giggle> welcome to the playground.

[Ehra]

Thogs whole "child like personality" is a gag on having int as a dump stat.

[Porthos]

Okay, even though spargel has more or less conceded defeat, I'm still going to post this as I think it needs to be said. :smallsmile:

People who are (very) stupid are NOT neutral by default.

Nor are they evil by default. Or chaotic. Or lawful or good for that matter. People of limited intellegence can be found all across the alignment spectrum, per DnD rules.

Now one can raise a thousand intellectual and moral arguments about how this is unrealistic (like "realism" and DnD have any relationship, casual or otherwise :smallyuk:). One can bring up point after point about how this doesn't seem to reflect how things really are.

Great. Wonderful.

But all of that is irrelevant to DnD. Per rules, if you are self-aware (i.e. INT of 3+) you get to have an alignment. The choices you make in life matter.

Just as one can be a person of limited intellegence and do good, one can be of limited intellegence and be bad. Thog has shown, on numerous occasions, that he is self-aware. He is cognizant of his actions. He just doesn't care about the ramifications. Why? Well, one can offer a dozen reasons. But "It's Fun" seems to be at the top of the list.

And, again, if Thog isn't evil, then someone who was an Mirror Universe version of Thog wouldn't be good. And I tend to think that there would be an insane amount of caterwauling on this board if someone tried to say that a CG version of Thog wasn't really good. :smallwink:

Maybe people are too hung up on the implict punishment angle to evil in DnD (and therefore bring in the very understandable RL aversion to punishing people who are mentally deficient). I dunno. All I do know is if one gives Thog a pass, then you condemn all of the "good" Thogs out there to a place where they don't deserve to be.

And that isn't fair, now is it? :smallsmile:

[spargel]

By the way, I got my definition of CN from Tvtropes.

Chaotic Neutral: The ultimate free spirits, or just lunatics? It can go either way. Chaotic Neutral characters are all about freedom, and don't care so much about morality. Sometimes they're just amoral nutjobs, and sometimes they're generally good people with a wild streak that sometimes leads them into bad things. Often used by players in Tabletop Games to excuse doing anything they feel like (in the case of a Game Master who disables evil alignments—see Neutral Evil, below), and often prohibited by the sort of Game Master who also prohibits outright evil characters. Like Lawful Neutral, however, how "good" they ultimately end up seeming depends on which side of Order Versus Chaos the plot tends toward. Sometimes Chaotic Neutrals are simply committed to Chaos above everything else. The toadlike slaad, inhabitants of Limbo, are Chaotic Neutral. Also, Chaotic Neutrals can, in fact, have some degree of care for morality however they can be more flexible in their moral algorithms, willing to risk more to accomplish whatever they believe is 'right' - under this interpretation, V from V for Vendetta is Chaotic Neutral. Don't forget that too much of it and the Game Master can easily declare them Chaotic Evil, however.

[Snake-Aes]

By the way, I got my definition of CN from Tvtropes.

Chaotic Neutral: The ultimate free spirits, or just lunatics? It can go either way. Chaotic Neutral characters are all about freedom, and don't care so much about morality. Sometimes they're just amoral nutjobs, and sometimes they're generally good people with a wild streak that sometimes leads them into bad things. Often used by players in Tabletop Games to excuse doing anything they feel like (in the case of a Game Master who disables evil alignments—see Neutral Evil, below), and often prohibited by the sort of Game Master who also prohibits outright evil characters. Like Lawful Neutral, however, how "good" they ultimately end up seeming depends on which side of Order Versus Chaos the plot tends toward. Sometimes Chaotic Neutrals are simply committed to Chaos above everything else. The toadlike slaad, inhabitants of Limbo, are Chaotic Neutral. Also, Chaotic Neutrals can, in fact, have some degree of care for morality however they can be more flexible in their moral algorithms, willing to risk more to accomplish whatever they believe is 'right' - under this interpretation, V from V for Vendetta is Chaotic Neutral. Don't forget that too much of it and the Game Master can easily declare them Chaotic Evil, however.The definition there is exactly the "I want to kill everyone and get away with it" interpretation.

[spargel]

The definition there is exactly the "I want to kill everyone and get away with it" interpretation.

That actually has about 5 interpretations.

-Lunatics
-Freedom with no morality
-Good people who may go out of control and do some bad things
-Chaotic
-Good, but with more flexible morals

[Snake-Aes]

That actually has about 5 interpretations.

-Lunatics
-Freedom with no morality
-Good people who may go out of control and do some bad things
-Chaotic
-Good, but with more flexible morals

Yeah nothing there is accurate. "Good with flexible morals" is not good. Depending on what they do they're outright evil.
Try Pathfinder's instead:

Chaotic neutral represents true freedom from both society’s restrictions and a do-gooder’s zeal. A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.

[Kallisti]

I seriously cannot believe there's been five pages worth of debate on such a clear-cut issue.

:thog:Oh, little ice cream friends! Thog delay boredom-driven rampage only for you!
:sabine: to :nale: I pray every day to my dark fiendish overlords that he never finds out we're out of sprinkles.

Chaotic, yes. Evil, yes. End of story.

By the DnD rules, anyone with an Intelligence score high enough to take class levels is intelligent enough to have some moral outlook and qualify for an alignment other than TN.

Thog is CE, but some people don't want to admit it, because everyone loves Thog. I love Thog. He's a great character, he's easy to like, and he makes a great friend. He also murders people to pass the time between ice cream cones. He's evil, but in an endearing way.

[Bibliomancer]

I seriously cannot believe there's been five pages worth of debate on such a clear-cut issue.

:thog:Oh, little ice cream friends! Thog delay boredom-driven rampage only for you!
:sabine: to :nale: I pray every day to my dark fiendish overlords that he never finds out we're out of sprinkles.

Chaotic, yes. Evil, yes. End of story.

By the DnD rules, anyone with an Intelligence score high enough to take class levels is intelligent enough to have some moral outlook and qualify for an alignment other than TN.

Thog is CE, but some people don't want to admit it, because everyone loves Thog. I love Thog. He's a great character, he's easy to like, and he makes a great friend. He also murders people to pass the time between ice cream cones. He's evil, but in an endearing way.

However, it might be possible to have class levels without being sentient. Consider the following scenario:

Druid casts awaken on a dog.

The dog goes on some adventurers and levels up as a fighter (sentient animals can take class levels).

The awaken effect is broken by a wizard casting Break Enchantment. Does the dog retain it's class levels?

Anyways, Thog is CE.

[Jaltum]

Great, my argument just got ruined by a gag.

You can forget most of my posts in this thread then.

People have been pointing those events and that comic out for the last four pages.

[Ormur]

Sure he has the mind of a child but aren't kids basically immature sociopaths that can't wield axes with the same skill as Thog?

Being evil doesn't stop him from being lovably cute and crazy since this is just a comic. Yes and he's definitely chaotic. Oots is like a manual for keeping a party with CE PC's functional.

[Jackson]

spargel's argument seems to hinge on the claim that Thog has the intelligence of an infant (as opposed to a child), which is a claim I find fairly dubious. He's clearly behind the purely instinctual meeting of basic needs that drives the thinking of a literal infant. He's capable of exercising choice and agency, able to improvise, and, more surprisingly, able to remember and execute his role in Nale's various needlessly complicated plans (not to mention Elan's plan to get onto an airship).

He's dumb, no doubt. But he's not shown to be quite that dumb. Which is a fairly important distinction to make, apparently.

Also, interestingly, one of the first things he does mention once he reunites with Nale, and well before any mention of ice cream, is killing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html).

[Bookworm702]

Personally, I like to compare Thog to Buu. Yes he enjoys slaughtering people for fun, but seriously if someone sat down with him for five minutes, explained to him that killing people was wrong, and then gave him an ice cream cone, that would be the end of it.

[Thrax]

Personally, I like to compare Thog to Buu. Yes he enjoys slaughtering people for fun, but seriously if someone sat down with him for five minutes, explained to him that killing people was wrong, and then gave him an ice cream cone, that would be the end of it.

I don't believe it. If someone told Thog that killing is wrong, he would kill that person. And then eat ice creams.

[SadisticFishing]

Err.. when that happened to Buu he split into two people, one even more evil than the original, who ate him.

Seriously, what? Thog is a normal, Chaotic Evil, stupid orc. The end...

[Watcher]

I thought Thog was a half-orc.

[spargel]

People have been pointing those events and that comic out for the last four pages.

No one posted that strip for most of those pages.

[derfenrirwolv]

Assassin
Hit Die

d6.

Requirements

To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Alignment :Any evil.


Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.

[Watcher]

How is that relevant?


Off Topic: I fixed my avatar!

[Herald Alberich]

Um ... so? Thog's a barbarian/fighter. The only assassin we've seen is Crystal, and I don't see anyone arguing that she's not Evil.

[Kallisti]

However, it might be possible to have class levels without being sentient. Consider the following scenario:

Druid casts awaken on a dog.

The dog goes on some adventurers and levels up as a fighter (sentient animals can take class levels).

The awaken effect is broken by a wizard casting Break Enchantment. Does the dog retain it's class levels?

Anyways, Thog is CE.

According to the rules as written, yes, it does. Our party did that once--to a rhinocerous. It took levels of Barbarian, with two levels of fighter (just like Thog, actually...), then he turned it back into an animal so he could use Animal Empathy to have it follow him and protect him. That was a weird game...


Personally, I like to compare Thog to Buu. Yes he enjoys slaughtering people for fun, but seriously if someone sat down with him for five minutes, explained to him that killing people was wrong, and then gave him an ice cream cone, that would be the end of it.

Not likely. If Thog liked that person, he'd say, ":thog:Thog agrees. Now Thog and all Thog friends go out for ice cream! Yay!" Then five minutes after that, he gets angry/bored/hungry/etc., then forgets the whole "Killing is wrong" thing and kills someone, preferably whoever is responsible for his becoming angry/bored/hungry/etc., but anyone nearby will do. Thog kills people, not because he doesn't know better, but because he feels like it.

[Evil Mastermind]

Thog is Evil, but I think that he's only Evil because Nale is Evil, and Thog always obeys Nale. Thog is simply easy to influence. Remember that Thog killed nobody while he was escaping prison with Elan.

[Trixie]

Um, he almost killed Haley. Going out of his way to do so.

Also, thread necromancy for the win :smalltongue:

[Cracklord]

Thog is more evil then Belkar, as Belkar makes some effort to have control over himself, while Thog just gives in to his impulses. And Thog is evil on a broader scale then Belkar, as Belkar's acts, while atrocious, are not actually all that common.

[Spiryt]

Seriously, why people don't read what they fellow playgrounders have written?

I mean, how many times someone can come up with:

"Thog's not evil, he just obeys Nale"?

It's getting a bit boring.

[spargel]

Seriously, why people don't read what they fellow playgrounders have written?

I mean, how many times someone can come up with:

"Thog's not evil, he just obeys Nale"?

It's getting a bit boring.

What about the "Thog is insane" argument?

[Kish]

Completely lacking in textual support, other than that it's unassailable.

[Murdim]

Um ... so? Thog's a barbarian/fighter. The only assassin we've seen is Crystal, and I don't see anyone arguing that she's not Evil.She's actually a Lawful Good Rogue/Paladin/Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). And in love with Haley. And it totally makes sense :smallbiggrin:

[Kaytara]

She's actually a Lawful Good Rogue/Paladin/Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a). And in love with Haley. And it totally makes sense :smallbiggrin:

The Crack Pairings thread is two doors down, you know. Across the fiery pit of squishy entangling doom.

[Optimystik]

Thog is more evil then Belkar, as Belkar makes some effort to have control over himself, while Thog just gives in to his impulses. And Thog is evil on a broader scale then Belkar, as Belkar's acts, while atrocious, are not actually all that common.

Broader perhaps, but also shallower - Belkar murders of his own volition, but Thog only does so on Nale's command.

DCF Bonus Strip:
When placed in a Zone of Truth, Thog attributes 178 murders (plus the Earth Sylph) to Nale's direction.

He fails his will save so badly that he moves on from the question he was asked and ends up telling the guards several embarrassing details about his life; to me, this indicates that the Nale-inspired killings were the only ones he's done.

I still think he's evil, but more evil than Belkar is quite a stretch.


The Crack Pairings thread is two doors down, you know. Across the fiery pit of squishy entangling doom.

Bring eye bleach!

[Trixie]

Broader perhaps, but also shallower - Belkar murders of his own volition, but Thog only does so on Nale's command.

DCF Bonus Strip:
When placed in a Zone of Truth, Thog attributes 178 murders (plus the Earth Sylph) to Nale's direction.

I still think he's evil, but more evil than Belkar is quite a stretch.

And then, he committed further 417 here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) That's ~600 kills, order of magnitude more than Belkar (even counting the SSGoW incident) :smallamused:

[Kish]

You're seriously suggesting that Belkar hasn't killed 600 innocent people in his life?

[hamishspence]

We have no idea how many- there were the people in the bar, referred to in Origin, the barbarians, the prison guard, and Solt Lykyurg the gnome. But aside from those, we don't know.

[Optimystik]

And then, he committed further 417 here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0363.html) That's ~600 kills, order of magnitude more than Belkar (even counting the SSGoW incident) :smallamused:

Those were also all at Nale's direction, as they were all part of his plan.


We have no idea how many- there were the people in the bar, referred to in Origin, the barbarians, the prison guard, and Solt Lykyurg the gnome. But aside from those, we don't know.

His nickname in Celestia - "Death's 'lil helper" - indicates he's been quite busy at it.

And if Thog is so close to Belkar on the evil scale, why isn't Celestia tracking him?

[spargel]

Completely lacking in textual support, other than that it's unassailable.

Other than the way he acts throughout the entire comic?

[Optimystik]

Other than the way he acts throughout the entire comic?

He's not insane. Childish, perhaps, but he's certainly aware of what he's doing and what's going on around him. His "not-nale" speech confirmed that.

[spargel]

He's not insane. Childish, perhaps, but he's certainly aware of what he's doing and what's going on around him. His "not-nale" speech confirmed that.

Mentally retarded then? He could probably try an insanity defense and succeed.

I don't even think his not-nale speech makes any sense.

[David Argall]

We have no idea how many- there were the people in the bar, referred to in Origin, the barbarians, the prison guard, and Solt Lykyurg the gnome. But aside from those, we don't know.

489 shows that the time in Roy's employment is very much a low point for Belkar, who had been actively evil for a long time before then. Comments in various other comics also suggest a long string of dead bodies behind Belkar. We can't give a precise count, but the number has got to be high.

[Kish]

Other than the way he acts throughout the entire comic?
No, with that too.

[spargel]

No, with that too.

Right, good luck with that.

[Gift Jeraff]

Mentally retarded then? He could probably try an insanity defense and succeed.

I don't even think his not-nale speech makes any sense.
It does:

:thog: He's not Nale, he's Elan. I helped nail Elan, not Nale. And I tied up Elan while Nale nailed Elan. Nale, not Elan, now nailed Elan by leaving Elan, not Nale, in jail.

(Note: I can't think of a good word to replace "nail". Maybe blame? Ah well, it's funnier this way. :smallbiggrin:)

[Porthos]

He could probably try an insanity defense and succeed.

Even in the "real world" (at least in the US) Knowing Right From Wrong generally precludes an insanity plea.

Now "Diminshed Capacity" might be a different angle, but probably still not very successful.

Here's a small overview of the so-called Insanity Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity_defense). :smallsmile:

[spargel]

It does:

:thog: He's not Nale, he's Elan. I helped nail Elan, not Nale. And I tied up Elan while Nale nailed Elan. Nale, not Elan, now nailed Elan by leaving Elan, not Nale, in jail.

(Note: I can't think of a good word to replace "nail". Maybe blame? Ah well, it's funnier this way. :smallbiggrin:)

Right, I see now.


Even in the "real world" (at least in the US) Knowing Right From Wrong generally precludes an insanity plea.

Now "Diminshed Capacity" might be a different angle, but probably still not very successful.

Here's a small overview of the so-called Insanity Defense.

And I've never ever heard of Thog saying anything about Right and Wrong.

[Porthos]

Right, good luck with that.

Gotta say, I agree with Kish. Thog is no more mentally retarded than, say, Elan. Okay he might be a bit more... simple. But he wouldn't be considered mentally handicapped under most definitions of the word.

And, again: INT at 3 or above and you have morality and alignment.

You may think that is unfair and unjust. And perhaps you are right. But the people to take that up with would be WotC (and Rich since he is more or less working on the same page - even with the numerous subversions). :smallwink:

[Porthos]

And I've never ever heard of Thog saying anything about Right and Wrong.


"thog guilty. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html)" would seem to show that Thog knows innocence from guilt.

Also, "yay, resisting arrest is fun." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0362.html) shows at least a little that thog knows what is going on around him.

I can show more if you want (*cough* Thog's smile at the thought of "torture" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html) *cough*). :smallwink:

[spargel]

Gotta say, I agree with Kish. Thog is no more mentally retarded than, say, Elan. Okay he might be a bit more... simple. But he wouldn't be considered mentally handicapped under most definitions of the word.


You're seriously under exaggerating his stupidity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentally_handicapped



And, again: INT at 3 or above and you have morality and alignment.

You may think that is unfair and unjust. And perhaps you are right. But the people to take that up with would be WotC (and Rich since he is more or less working on the same page - even with the numerous subversions). :smallwink:

Insane people who don't know Right from Wrong don't have to be incredibly dumb. Although in Thog's case, he seems to be both insane and incredibly dumb.


"thog guilty." would seem to show that Thog knows innocence from guilt.


Innocence =/= Right
Guilt =/= Wrong



Also, "yay, resisting arrest is fun." shows at least a little that thog knows what is going on around him.


Yes, he's not blind.



I can show more if you want (*cough* Thog's smile at the thought of "torture" *cough*).


Thog likes puppies too. And ice cream.

[Optimystik]

Mentally retarded then? He could probably try an insanity defense and succeed.

Mental retardation and insanity are two very different conditions, and neither of them apply to Thog. Other than his unquestioning trust of Nale, he seems fairly typical for a half-orc barbarian.

Also, as Porthos illustrated, he knows too much about right and wrong for an insanity plea to work.


I don't even think his not-nale speech makes any sense.

You clearly didn't read it closely enough.


It does:

:thog: He's not Nale, he's Elan. I helped nail Elan, not Nale. And I tied up Elan while Nale nailed Elan. Nale, not Elan, now nailed Elan by leaving Elan, not Nale, in jail.

(Note: I can't think of a good word to replace "nail". Maybe blame? Ah well, it's funnier this way. :smallbiggrin:)

"Frame" might work.

[spargel]

Mental retardation and insanity are two very different conditions, and neither of them apply to Thog. Other than his unquestioning trust of Nale, he seems fairly typical for a half-orc barbarian.


I would say the typical half-orc barbarian is slightly more intelligent than Thog.



Also, as Porthos illustrated, he knows too much about right and wrong for an insanity plea to work.


Where has he said anything about morality?

[Optimystik]

Where has he said anything about morality?

You glossed over the quote but it is indeed very telling. "thog guilty." That word carries strong connotations of wrongdoing, whether you deny them or not.

As for puppies and ice cream, he didn't give nearly as wicked a smile at those things as he did at the thought of torturing Elan, or while kidnapping Julia.

[spargel]

You glossed over the quote but it is indeed very telling. "thog guilty." That word carries strong connotations of wrongdoing, whether you deny them or not.


I deny them.



As for puppies and ice cream, he didn't give nearly as wicked a smile at those things as he did at the thought of torturing Elan, or while kidnapping Julia.

You're going to judge that by how big his smile is...

[Porthos]

You're seriously under exaggerating his stupidity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentally_handicapped

No, I'm really not.

Besides, "being dumb" is NOT a Get Out of Jail Free Card. Get Out of Execution Free Card? Yes. But Get Out of Jail? No.


Insane people who don't know Right from Wrong don't have to be incredibly dumb. Although in Thog's case, he seems to be both insane and incredibly dumb.

Even if I bought the insanity argument, which I don't, there is still the notion of Guilty but Mentally Ill (GBMI) or a Guilty but Insane (GBI).

If Thog is ever captured he is destined for a one way ticket to a jail cell (if not the Executioners Block). If he is incredibly lucky he might be shunted off to a mental institution. But one that is functionally the same as a prison. So, in the end, it wouldn't matter. Even if a court found that Thog was insane, as you claim they might, he would be locked up and never let loose to wander the streets.

He has violent psychopathic impulses that can only be staved off when something satisfies his latent ADD. Left to his own devices he would eventually engage in a rampage that would lead dozens dead in his wake.

He is a person that will go around indiscriminately killing and rampaging simply because he enjoys it.

That, under DnD's definition is: EVIL.

And while "doing something that satisfies your base impulses" has been argued by some as a hallmark of neutrality (which it isn't, but I'll leave that to the side for the moment), the fact of the matter is that his base impulses are evil. Thus by wallowing in them he is indeed evil.

If his "base impulses" weren't evil, then that would be something else. But they are. And if he had a better sustained role model, then perhaps Thog could reform. But I'd view him as something of a ticking timebomb. Someone that would have to be constantly monitored and appeased, lest he break out and rampage again. Comic #396 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) should go a long way to showing which way Thog will flip when given the choice between Elan and Nale.


Innocence =/= Right
Guilt =/= Wrong

Errr. What? :smallconfused:

If any lawyer heard a client say that he knew he was guilty of a crime, they'd be really hard pressed to say that they really didn't know right from wrong.

And, since it's been a while since I showed you this link, I feel I have to provide it again:

Psychopathic Manchild (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.PsychopathicManchild).

Thog is the friggin' page quote for pete's sake. :smalltongue: That's how much he fits the trope to a "t".

To put it another way, Thog is a brutal subversion of the trope Dumb Is Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.DumbIsGood). And, whadda ya know, it's even mentioned on that page as well. :smalltongue:

[Kish]

I deny them.
Rejecting our reality and substituting your own never gets old, does it?

[Setra]

I deny them.
Okay, I deny all of your arguments

Thread over, Thog is evil.

[Porthos]

@ Kish. Nice Mythbusters reference. :smallcool:

==========

spargel let's flip this for a second. Suppose Thog gets captured by some legal authority. And, let's say for arguments sake, they know everything about Thog's life.

What do YOU think should happen to him?

Simple question. :smallsmile:

[spargel]

No, I'm really not.

Besides, "being dumb" is NOT a Get Out of Jail Free Card. Get Out of Execution Free Card? Yes (at least in most cases). But Get Out of Jail? No.

Even if I bought the insanity argument, which I don't, there is still the notion of Guilty but Mentally Ill (GBMI) or a Guilty but Insane (GBI).

If Thog is ever captured he is destined for a one way ticket to a jail cell (if not the Executioners Block). If he is incredibly lucky he might be shunted off to a mental institution. But one that is functionally the same as a prison. So, in the end, it wouldn't matter. Even if a court found that Thog was insane, as you claim they might, he would be locked up and never let loose to wander the streets.

He has violent psychopathic impulses that can only be staved off when something satisfies his latent ADD. Left to his own devices he would eventually engage in a rampage that would lead dozens dead in his wake.


Did I say anything about letting him go free?
If you have psychopathic impulses to stab people that can only be controlled by ice cream, then you're probably insane.



He is a person that will go around indiscriminately killing and rampaging simply because he enjoys it.

That, under DnD's definition is: EVIL.

And while "doing something that satisfies your base impulses" has been argued by some as a hallmark of neutrality (which it isn't, but I'll leave that to the side for the moment), the fact of the matter is that his base impulses are evil. Thus by wallowing in them he is indeed evil.

If his "base impulses" weren't evil, then that would be something else. But they are. And if he had a better sustained role model, then perhaps Thog could reform. But I'd view him as something of a ticking timebomb. Someone that would have to be constantly monitored and appeased, lest he break out and rampage again. Comic #396 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html) should go a long way to showing which way Thog will flip when given the choice between Elan and Nale.


"Base impulses" don't mean much if you can't tell the difference between Right and Wrong. And the other half of his impulses are neutral anyways.

And Thog didn't choose between Elan and Nale, or else he would have hit Elan too.



Errr. What? :smallconfused:

If any lawyer heard a client say that he knew he was guilty of a crime, they'd be really hard pressed to say that they really didn't know right from wrong.


The lawyer would assume Thog means that he did break the law. Thog's vocabulary isn't exactly large.


spargel let's flip this for a second. Suppose Thog gets captured by some legal authority. And, let's say for arguments sake, they know everything about Thog's life.

What do YOU think should happen to him?

Simple question.

Either lock him away forever, or make him go through mental rehab.

[Porthos]

Did I say anything about letting him go free?
If you have psychopathic impulses to stab people that can only be controlled by ice cream, then you're probably insane.

But those people are still generally sent to prisons, not mental institutions. At the very least they are sent to Mental Institutions In Name Only. Functionally, they're the same as prisons.

We're now treading dangerously close to the Real Life Politics line here, so I really can't give any concrete specific examples. But I can point to an overview of psychopathy in general:

Psychopathy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath).

Which, IYR, is what got us started on this whole side debate.

I am willing to say the following: Whether or not Thog is insane is irrelevant. The crimes he has committed would probably land him in a Jail Cell rather than a Padded Cell.

Does he have a chance at the Padded Cell? Perhaps. But I sure wouldn't bet on it. :smallsmile:

[hamishspence]

And if it was a padded cell, it would be one in a place which specializes in the "criminally insane" rather than just "the insane"

Thog is to a D&D setting what Hannibal Lector is to a modern one- might be seen as insane, but first and foremost as Extremely Dangerous.

Especially since he can break normal jail cell bars.

[Setra]

The thing is..

It doesn't matter if Thog is insane, stupid or whatever because this is not the real world, it's a world of D&D.

If I played a CN character like Thog, the DM would drop me to evil pretty fast.

Thog's Alighment is Chaotic Evil, it doesn't matter what he would be in the real world because he isn't in real life.

Alignment's don't exist in real life.

[Dienekes]

Huh I always thought Thog was Neutral Evil. Evil because, well yeah. But Thog seems to mix between going on a random rampage with a strict obedience to Nale, which seems more lawful.

Though I'd be willing to be proven wrong.

[Morty]

Huh I always thought Thog was Neutral Evil. Evil because, well yeah. But Thog seems to mix between going on a random rampage with a strict obedience to Nale, which seems more lawful.

Though I'd be willing to be proven wrong.

Blind obedience to Nale is the only one of Thog's Lawful traits. His impulsiveness and tendency to change his mind at the slightest whim are both strongly Chaotic, shifting the balance towards Chaos.

[Porthos]

Blind obedience to Nale is the only one of Thog's Lawful traits. His impulsiveness and tendency to change his mind at the slightest whim are both strongly Chaotic, shifting the balance towards Chaos.

Besides, Elan is VERY loyal (and obiedient) to Roy. And I don't hear many people saying that Elan is NG.

To put it another way: Just as Lawful people don't always have to follow the law, Chaotic people don't always have to act randomly.

Someone who is Chaotic can be extremely loyal and obedient to a cause (or person). The reasoning might be different than a Lawful person. But the committment can still be there.

To put it yet another way: Chaotic Does Not Necessarily Equal Flake (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flake). :smallamused:

[Evil Mastermind]

Thog is evil. Nale is evil, and Thog obeys Nale. End of story. The discussion about his alignment should be on the Chaotic/Lawful axis instead.

[spargel]

I am willing to say the following: Whether or not Thog is insane is irrelevant. The crimes he has committed would probably land him in a Jail Cell rather than a Padded Cell.

Does he have a chance at the Padded Cell? Perhaps. But I sure wouldn't bet on it. :smallsmile:

Since we're comparing this to real life...

There's not really any cases of a murderer as dumb and immature as Thog, so they'll probably take that into consideration. I'd say he has a decent chance of landing into a padded cell.

[multilis]

Thog is obviously a spy for an elite group of celestials who know that the Linear guild are the pawns of their arch rivals the IFCC.

He gives away key info the the good guys such as nale having a scroll, to help save Roy's future girlfriend.

[Ripped Shirt Kirk]

I thought it was because he likes breaking thing, like lots of children do. And just because he has an INT score doesn't man he knows any better. If a half-orc grows up thinking murder, killing and destruction are ok, how does he know any better?



He wanted a puppy, but nale, being evil,gave him a dwarf and said it was a puppy.




This is like saying "Well, the mass murderer shouldn't go to jail, because he had a bad childhood" or "I don't think we should put down the pit bull that killed my baby, because he didn't know any better"




It is NOT an excuse, otherwise we would have tons of mass murderers on the streets.

[Aristeidis]

In my opinion Thog is Chaotic Stupid.
Don't confuse lack of awareness as good. He is evil as can be. His goofy interactions just make him loveable. But he is evil nonetheless