*Gasp* Non-androgynous Elves?!

[Erts]

Can it be? For the first time in a very long time, elves have a defined gender!
Well, except for that wizard. Kinda hard to tell.

[The Extinguisher]

What about Lirian?

Also, the cleric in the back is hard to tell as well.

[Optimystik]

They all seem pretty androgynous to me. Even the archer could go either way.

[NerfTW]

I don't see any defined gender characteristics on any of them.

[Erts]

What about Lirian?

Also, the cleric in the back is hard to tell as well.

Yeah, I was counting Lirian. That was a long time ago.

[AgentPaper]

Can it be? For the first time in a very long time, elves have a defined gender!
Well, except for that wizard. Kinda hard to tell.

I'm not so sure about that. The dark-skinned elf and the rogue are probably male and female, respectively, based on their body shape, but the pink-haired elf would make me think female from the hair, but male from the body shape. Though that could just be clunky armor giving it that shape. And of course the wizard is about as easy to know the gender of as V.

[Zanaril]

The cleric is especially tricky. At first glance I though female because of the pink hair, but looking closer I actually have no idea. :smalleek:

Also, I cant decide whether that bit of pink on the chest is a clevage, chest hair. or an amulet (I'm going to assume the latter, but it's really not clear) :smallsigh:


It's also worth noting that there seem to be two types of elves there; the rogue and the archer are taller and have much more sticky-out ears.

[Porthos]

Also, I cant decide whether that bit of pink on the chest is a clevage or chest hair. :smallsigh:

It's a Holy Symbol. IMO. :smallsmile: Though I suppose it could be clevage. But that wasn't what first came to mind when I saw the cleric.

[Optimystik]

Also, I cant decide whether that bit of pink on the chest is a clevage or chest hair. :smallsigh:

Neither - it appears to be an amulet of some kind, most likely her holy symbol. (Elves don't have body hair, and Rich probably wouldn't draw cleavage without roundness.)

EDIT: I may have been ninja'ed, but at least the guy had a ninja avatar. :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

EDIT: I may have been ninja'ed, but at least the guy had a ninja avatar. :smallbiggrin:

Am I not a thing of Mist and Shadows? :smallcool: :smalltongue:

[Zanaril]

EDIT: I may have been ninja'ed, but at least the guy had a ninja avatar. :smallbiggrin:

Not everyone multiclasses.

[HandofShadows]

I don't see any defined gender characteristics on any of them.

Females have rounded bottoms, the males square bottoms. The archer is female, the cleric and the one with two swords, male. Not enough on the wizard yet.

[Zanaril]

Females have rounded bottoms, the males square bottoms.

Go back and take a look at Miko.

[Pandora]

Go back and take a look at Miko.

It looks like she's wearing a skirt... thingy

[pflare]

I don't see any defined gender characteristics on any of them.

Yah, I really can't tell with any elf in the comic, except for Lirian.

[Zanaril]

Yah, I really can't tell with any elf in the comic, except for Lirian.

We can hope that we're right about her, anyway.

[Optimystik]

It looks like she's wearing a skirt... thingy

More likely they're greaves. Miko isn't the skirt type.

Julia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0364.html) wears a skirt.


We can hope that we're right about her, anyway.

We very likely are; thanks to Thousand Faces she can make herself as busty and appealing to Dorukan as he could want, even if she started her career androgynous.

[Erts]

Yah, I really can't tell with any elf in the comic, except for Lirian.

For all we know, Lirian has more female qualities than the average elf, and the archer is how most females look.
We have yet to see a male elf, so I would assume the sword-wielder is a man.

[FoE]

If you read SoD, it's clear that Lirian was a bit unusual for an elf in that she had a figure. They're all fairly androgynous in the Oots world.

[Optimystik]

We have yet to see a male elf,

Aarindarius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) is male. (See also Origin)

[Kish]

We can hope that we're right about her, anyway.
Serini thought so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).

[Optimystik]

Serini thought so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).

"Magical door." Good times, good times. :smallbiggrin:

[Erts]

Aarindarius (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) is male. (See also Origin)

Yes, but I mean an elven warrior. Aarindarius is a guy who stays alone in a tower all day. He can't be that fit.

[mockingbyrd7]

Well first off, none of these four have boobs. This complicates the issue. :smalltongue:

The archer has the more slender, curvy female shape Rich uses - despite a lack of notable *ahem* development - and so I'm assuming she's female.
The swordsman (who is totally badass, by the way) has the broader, more "male" shape, and short hair. I'm guessing this one is male.
The wizard is fairly similar to Vaarsuvius. As we've seen, V is androgynous, so we can't really know with this one. But my gut feeling says "male".
The cleric has long pink hair, and a thinner figure with greaves/skirt/whatever you want to call it like Miko did. Also, how often have we seen a male with the low-cut torso? I say she's female.

It took a little bit of thought, but none of these elves are really very androgynous - except for the robed wizard, who I am assuming is male for a balance of 2 males, 2 females.

[Berserk Monk]

What about Pompey? He had the most defined gender.

[Snake-Aes]

What about Pompey? He had the most defined gender.

HALF elf. HALF androgynous.

[Optimystik]

What about Pompey? He had the most defined gender.

He's not an elf.

[Zevox]

I don't really see them as non-androgynous either.

The first one, the archer, is definitely androgynous. Seems rather curved like most females in the comic, but lacks any distinctive breasts. Could easily be a feminine male.

The second, the sword-wielder, I'd guess to be male, but the only thing I have to go on is the body shape.

The wizard just looks old, due to the white hair. Could be either.

The last one I'd guess to be male, but the pink hair in a ponytail makes me wonder if that's not inaccurate.

Zevox

[sam79]

My two pence;

The Archer; female, due to the rounded body shape (and it is looking like Elven females are not especially, er, top-heavy).

The Wizard; ?, though looks pretty similar to V. My personal view is that V is female, so perhaps this wizard is too. But who knows?

The Swordsperson; male, due to body shape.

The Cleric; ?; though the general body shape is rather male-looking, but that could just as easily be the flat-chested-female-in-heavy-armour shape. If forced to pick, I'd say female.

[AstralFire]

Females have rounded bottoms

Did someone call Freddie Mercury (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMnjF1O4eH0)?!

[Zanaril]

My guess it the archer is female, and the elf with two swords is male. The cleric, I think, is male, (with the pink hair it would just be too easy otherwise), and I'd guess the wizard is female to balance things out, and that she's the shortest one there supports that slightly.

However, I'd bet 10gp that Rich hasn't actually considered what genders they are, and they are currently technically neither.

[Optimystik]

Going forward, I'm going to consider the dark-skinned elf and wizard male, and the archer and cleric female. This thread is pretty much proof that they are all androgynous though, since we can't come to a consensus.

[Erts]

Going forward, I'm going to consider the dark-skinned elf and wizard male, and the archer and cleric female. This thread is pretty much proof that they are all androgynous though, since we can't come to a consensus.

I think most people have concluded that the sword-elf is male, and the archer is female. Its the cleric and the wizard which people are discussing.

[Random832]

female, due to the rounded body shape

If this is reliable, it would mean Kyrie is male. (Not that that means anything about V necessarily)

[Querzis]

The Archer is obviously female. The only way for female to not have a rounded bottoms is to wear a skirt or heavy armor. The Dark-skinned elf is obviously male. They just got leather armor or chainmail so their body shape should be very reliable. I think everyone can agree on those two. But the other two got heavy armor and robe so its hard to say.

And yeah I definitly saw Kyrie as a man. When I first read the comic in which he first appear, I just wondered why V mate wasnt androgynous at all.

[sam79]

If this is reliable, it would mean Kyrie is male. (Not that that means anything about V necessarily)

Yes; for what its worth, I think Kyrie is male. Though you are right that this does not tell us anything about V's gender.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Do you think that the elves in OotS have these same discussions themselves

Pink Haired Cleric: Mage, cast Haste on the fighter before he fights the goblins.

White Haired Mage: He? I thought he was a she.

Orange Haired Archer: I slept with him last night and I still don't know for sure...

Dark Haired Fighter: Hey what are you guys talking about? Um...you are guys, aren't you?

[Zanaril]

Orange Haired Archer: I slept with him last night and I still don't know for sure...

There's something horribly amusing about that line.

We'll have to wait until we see more elves, and see them talk about one another. And then watch closely to see if the pronouns change...

Although any race with that amout of disregard to gender will have gender neutral pronouns. Possibly they don't have any way of differentiating gender when talking about each other.

[Demiurge]

Guys. Analyzing and arguing over the body shapes and eye placement of the elves is futile. They are not male or female, at least not as we know it. Even if they are more toward male or female, they are androgynous enough so that they could pass either way to an untrained eye.

Also, is it possible that Lirian was just a half-elf, thus explaining why she was female? The one other half-elf we've seen, Pompey, had a definite gender identity. Though maybe he just adopted it to fit in with humans.

[Zanaril]

Guys. Analyzing and arguing over the body shapes and eye placement of the elves is futile.

But fun. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerdanel]

I think the archer on the left is female and the other three are males.

The archer is the only one with a rounded female bottom and I can also see a slight curve of breast while the other three are completely flat in that respect.

The fact that the one on the left has pink hair doesn't make him female; it only means that he was born with pink hair genes, or perhaps that he dyes his hair.

(I think V and Kyrie are a gay male couple.)

[Demiurge]

NO. Word of God says that Varsuuvius and all other elves (except Lirian) are androgynous. No gender. At all. Despite what you may percieve. All arguments one way or the other are misguided and a waste of energy, matter, computing capacity (neural and electronic), and time.

[Ancalagon]

NO. Word of God says... [...]

Where? All "Word of God" says, to my knowledge, that Vaarsuvius was not planned as gender-less, but that this joke then was picked up.
Apparently, it then also extendend to "Vaarsuvius' mate", and probably to other elves as well.

[Demiurge]

From that point on, he made every elf androgynous. Therefore, it must be assumed that Team Peregrine is as well.

[sam79]

From that point on, he made every elf androgynous. Therefore, it must be assumed that Team Peregrine is as well.

I think you are going to have to provide some supporting evidence for this assertion if you want anyone else at all to buy into it.

[Demiurge]

Show me an example of a circumstance in which one elf uses a gendered pronoun for another, and I will concede the point.

[kpenguin]

Wait, where did Rich say that all elves are androgynous?

[sam79]

Well is certainly looks like Rich enjoys creating androgynous-looking Elves; but it seems that only V and Kyrie are "officially" ambiguous. And as shown by his treatment of Lirian, at least one Elf has a clear gender identity.

But unless we get Team Peregrine actually using gendered pronouns to one another, we are not likely to find out their genders; even if we find out their names, it probably won't settle things. They are unlikely to be called Bob, Daisy, Frank and Mary-Jane, after all.

[Demiurge]

Lirian was a half-elf, or else a genetic deviant of some sort.

[sam79]

Show me an example of a circumstance in which one elf uses a gendered pronoun for another, and I will concede the point.

First; changing the entire contents of the post during a discussion is not cricket; editing a post which said "I may have spoken too hastily" to "prove me wrong or admit I'm right" seems a little...well, impolite.

Second; the inability to find a gendered pronoun in relation to Elves will not prove your assertion that "Words of God says Elves are androgynous". It will merely be an argument from silence that Elves might be considered ambiguous.

The burden of proof is on you to present your evidence of Ward of God. You could argue from the images that our author is creating some ambiguous Elves; but that does not mean all Elves are ambiguous.

EDIT: Removed reference to Lirian as an example of a gendered Elf, as your post had (inexplicably) excluded her from consideration in the debate.

[sam79]

Lirian was a half-elf, or else a genetic deviant of some sort.

In your opinion.

The fact that she is described as an Elf in strip 275 would tell against her being a half elf, but not conclusively. And we only need to assume she is a genetic deviant on the completely unevidenced assumption that Elves in OotS world are androgynous. Surely easier to assume that all Elves do havea gneder, but that they are often drawn in an ambiguous way, and (in the case of V and her mate) that ambiguity will never be cleared up.

Still waiting for a link to Word of God on this issue...

[Demiurge]

I have no time to trawl the archives or sift Rich's posts tonight. All I can say is that non of the members of Team Peregrine especially seem to be male or female, and going off of what we know of elves from Varsuuvius, Kylie, and their children, it's not too distant an assumption to assign such a trait to them, in accordance with Occam's Razor. Lirian was a fluke, she was like the second elf depicted after Vaarsuvius, so of course Rich hadn't decided yet.

[hap_hazard]

Zz'dtri was male....

[Threeshades]

Has anyone noticed how pretty much all elves after lirian had their eyes above half-height od the head. Which otherwise is a typically male trait in Rich's style, while females have their eyes on exactly half the height of their heads.

[sam79]

I have no time to trawl the archives or sift Rich's posts tonight.

Fair enough. It'll probably be looking for something that isn't there anyway. But unwise perhaps to stick so firmly to an argument if you don't know where the evidence to support it is.


All I can say is that non of the members of Team Peregrine especially seem to be male or female, and going off of what we know of elves from Varsuuvius, Kylie, and their children, it's not too distant an assumption to assign such a trait to them, in accordance with Occam's Razor.

Assuming that an entire race is androgynous is not the easiest solution, as we have an example of a gendered elf; writing her off as a fluke doesn't accord with Occam's Razor, as it is a fact that contradicts your theory.

The easiest solution is; Elves are gendered in the 'normal' way, but their physiological characteristics mean that both males and females often look androgynous. This creates some ambiguity with Elven characters, which in the case of V and Kyrie at least, will not be explicitly explained. Nothing in the strip or in the authorial commentaries contradicts this, to my knowledge.

[Demiurge]

Rich may not have been as definitive on the non-gendered nature of elvenkind as I have thought he was. Perhaps I was slightly zealous in defending this assertion, and for this I apologize.

[sam79]

Rich may not have been as definitive on the non-gendered nature of elvenkind as I have thought he was.

He certainly seems to enjoy the ambiguity of Elves, and the debates it causes.


Perhaps I was slightly zealous in defending this assertion, and for this I apologize.

No harm no foul.

[Ancalagon]

Rich may not have been as definitive on the non-gendered nature of elvenkind as I have thought he was. Perhaps I was slightly zealous in defending this assertion, and for this I apologize.

Who said they are "non-gendered"? All we know so far is that their gender is not discernible... for us.

[HealthKit]

I thought half-elves have one pointy ear. I don't remember Lirian having one pointy ear like Pompey does.

And here at the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html) we see an elf that certainly looks female... though I suppose it could be a male elf in drag (but I doubt it).

[Bibliomancer]

There is another piece of evidence here that might be useful in determining the cleric's gender:

She actually knows how to use a Sending spell (exactly 25 words), unlike Nale. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html)

My personal interpretation on this is that, unlike Nale, the cleric can use words economically, thus making her the opposite of Nale and thus female, although I'm sure there are other equally valid interpretations.

[sam79]

And here at the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html) we see an elf that certainly looks female... though I suppose it could be a male elf in drag (but I doubt it).

Good catch! So perhaps the conclusion is; Elves could easily display their gender if they want to, but many don't seem to want to.

[Bibliomancer]

Good catch! So perhaps the conclusion is; Elves could easily display their gender if they want to, but many don't seem to want to.

It's the afterlife catering to LG humanoids (thus, humans plus dwarves). To humans, elves represent the ideal human (which is why there are so many half-elves) so an illusion/construct of an elf with human physiology is conjured/created for their enjoyment. I don't think that this tells us much about real life elves, given that few of them would go to the LG afterlife.

[sam79]

It's the afterlife catering to LG humanoids (thus, humans plus dwarves). To humans, elves represent the ideal human (which is why there are so many half-elves) so an illusion/construct of an elf with human physiology is conjured/created for their enjoyment. I don't think that this tells us much about real life elves, given that few of them would go to the LG afterlife.

Fair point, but would Elves be so highly regarded, and such popular fodder for the sexual fantasies of humans, if the race as a whole was androgynous? Answering this question could lead us into weird (and wonderful?) places, so lets just say 'to each his own' and move on.

I still think 'Elves have gender, but it is sometimes hard to tell' is a firmer conclusion than 'Elves, as a race, are androgynous. Except for Lirian'.

[Red XIV]

The second, the sword-wielder, I'd guess to be male, but the only thing I have to go on is the body shape.
The swordsman shows no female traits whatsoever, so male seems to be a safe bet.


Lirian was a half-elf, or else a genetic deviant of some sort.
Half-elves in OotS have one pointy ear and one round ear. Lirian was 100% elf, it's just that she was unusually...developed for an elf. That's nothing bizarre; some human females are...larger...than others, too.


It's the afterlife catering to LG humanoids (thus, humans plus dwarves). To humans, elves represent the ideal human (which is why there are so many half-elves) so an illusion/construct of an elf with human physiology is conjured/created for their enjoyment. I don't think that this tells us much about real life elves, given that few of them would go to the LG afterlife.
You don't think there would also be real elves in the LG afterlife? Elves can come in any alignment after all.

[golentan]

So the consensus seems to be that the archer was female?

Oh man, but s/he was the only one I was sure was male. Looking at eyeline, height, and all I was sure male. But yeah, curvy body. I don't know.

So no, we don't have clearly defined genders on these guys, and V's master is never referred to as male by an elf except maybe in On the Origin of PCs (I'll dig around, find it).

Also, as was pointed out Lirian was involved with a human and has mildly metamorphic class features.

[Morgan Wick]

Okay, I was able to write off Inkyrius and the kids as "this would reveal either V's gender or sexual orientation". I was even willing to write off Aarindarius in case the master-student relationship in the magical dojo needs to be same-sex to prevent Mary Kay Letourneau Teaches Here.

But there is no reason to hide the genders of these guys.

It makes me wonder about Lirian and how Rich is going to explain her very-defined gender, hopefully in the commentary in the current book. Because he's now made it very clear that, as a rule, elves look androgynous.

Rich's failure to smell-test his design for Vaarsuvius really ruined elves in this comic...

[Jaltum]

...what?

It's pretty straightforward. Elven gender is not as obvious as human gender. Most elves, at least when reduced to the abstraction of a stick figure, are hard to distinguish on sight. Rich isn't "hiding" their gender, he just hasn't gone out of his way to make it obvious.

Not sure how this 'ruins elves' or creates an inconsistency that needs to be explained with Lirian. She's more feminine than the average female elf. Big deal.

[golentan]

It's a non-stop source of comedy. It makes elves better. I for one have been running with some similar themes in my fantasy game cuz it's comedy gold.

The fact it was unintentional is if anything pure gravy.

[Calamity]

NO. Word of God says that Varsuuvius and all other elves (except Lirian) are androgynous. No gender. At all. Despite what you may percieve. All arguments one way or the other are misguided and a waste of energy, matter, computing capacity (neural and electronic), and time.

You're mixing up the word 'androgynous' with 'hermaphrodite' or 'genderless'. It doesn't mean they have no gender, it just means their gender is hard to distinguish based on their physical features.

[Kurien]

And here at the Tavern of Infinite One-Night Stands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html) we see an elf that certainly looks female... though I suppose it could be a male elf in drag (but I doubt it).

And here in panel ten (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) is a dead elf with a somewhat ambiguous gender. I think it's a short haired flat chested female, considering eyes positioned in the middle of the face and rounded lower body.

[Recaiden]

To me, they all look male. But the archer, warrior, and cleric also look female.

[Elfin]

I'd say that the wizard and the sword-wielding elf is male, and the cleric and archer are female.
Just my two coppers.


Yes; for what its worth, I think Kyrie is male. Though you are right that this does not tell us anything about V's gender.

I dunno... I immediately saw Kyrie as female.

[kpenguin]

Both of the drow females we've seen were non-androgynous.

[Demiurge]

I'd say that the wizard and the sword-wielding elf is male, and the cleric and archer are female.
Just my two coppers.



I dunno... I immediately saw Kyrie as female.

Inky looks to me like the kind of guy who constantly gets mistaken for a girl at first glance. Eir body/face structure, such as may be present in stick figure form, however, looks more male to me.

[Iranon]

I believe that elves have defined genders but that the difficulties in sexing them don't stem from the art style.

Elves are usually displayed with slim, youthful builds, no body/facial hair and little difference in facial features (whether soft or sharp, this tends to apply to both sexes).
Unless the artist prefers to slap rippling muscles on every male and boobs the size of watermelons on every female, this is fairly consistent.

Most 'apparent females without all expected female characteristics' can be explained away by their apparel (heavy armour or tight clothing) or simply by not being very buxom. Richard has shown some variations there - one policewoman in Cliffport for example had considerably more bust than other women in the comic.

Round body shape seems unambiguously female; I can't recall any example of an unambiguously male character having that has it even if we'd expect them to be lean and androgynous. In this comic, I'd say tha archer and cleric are female, the fighter is male. As usual, it's hard to tell with characters wearing robes.
I'm a little surprised the cleric came across as male to some... the armour is slightly rounded in a fahsion we have only seen in females afaik and I never considered that she might be wearing an amulet - definitely cleavage to me.