Warhammer 40k III - Hats for the Hat Throne

[Baxter190]

New Thread from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6569747&posted=1#post6569747

[Copper8642]

I'm... a bit lost on the origin of the title. However... sweet, first thread on any site ever that I've participated in that's maxed out. Cool!

[Erloas]

Blood for the blood God, Skulls for the Skull throne.

But with a bit more enthusiasm and exclamation points. The chant of the followers of Khorne.
Where Tactics for the Tactics God reference came from in the last thread title too.

[Cristo Meyers]

Hats for the Hat Throne is what happens when the What Not To Wear crew got ahold of Khorne Bezerker.

...he spent the rest of his life trying to get the other Bezerkers to coordinate the brass and crimson with more fashionable colors...

[Winterwind]

I'm still kinda confused about the hats-part. :smalltongue:
Still, this marks me witnessing the entire life-cycle of a WH40k thread, from the beginning to its glorious end. They grow up so fast... :smallredface:


...he spent the rest of his life trying to get the other Bezerkers to coordinate the brass and crimson with more fashionable colors...I see what you did there. :smallbiggrin:

[Copper8642]

Yeah, I knew about the BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE bit, just not where the hats came from. Tactics made sense... hats... not so much.

[Baxter190]

Hats let you know whose in charge in the imperium. The more hats/bigger the hat, the more powerful a person is. See a Commisar model to get an idea.

[JMobius]

I thought it was lack of hats that was the indicator?

[The Glyphstone]

No, lacking a hat says you're badass. Having a big hat says you're in charge.

[Erloas]

I did a quick check on it, and I think it spawned directly from a quote from Mythic while they were developing WAR. I was following the development for WAR for a long time and I vaguely remember it, but not specifically, so I can't confirm what a random forum denizen said.

When talking about the crafting system for WAR they said they were going to make sure the crafting was focused on being at war and not more pacifist activities such as baking cakes or making hats. (I think it was a poke at the crafting system in LOTRO)
Of course the immediate response to that was "Cake for the Cake God, Hats for the Hat Throne"

I also think it happened a little bit after the PG version of the 300 trailer, which at least had the cake theme, though I'm not so sure about the hats.

[KilltheToy]

Is that 6 Chosen with one of them being a Champion, or 6 Chosen plus a 7th model being a Champion? In the former case, an icon of Slaanesh would be fluffy, in the latter case one of Nurgle. Both should be rather fine for their role.

I assume this goes here.

So to answer the question from the last thread:

It's 6 chosen with one being the champion at the moment.

I'll try to get my current plan for a 1500 point list up here as soon as I can. It's based on this list here. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?catId=cat180006&categoryId=400029&section=&aId=3000022)

[EleventhHour]

My test-Guard list. Worked out pretty well for my first battle, surprisingly niether the Vendetta or Chimera being destroyed. (Only got to the end of turn 3 before I had to go, though.) One squad of Lascannons got shot up, lost one wounded the other, but it was less fire than I thought that they'd take. I think it's the infantry distracting people. :smalltongue:


{table]Unit| Upgrades | Points
HQ | |
Company Command | Power Weapon (Commander), Regimental Standard, Vox Caster, Master of Ordinance, Chimera | 175
Elites | |
Stormtroopers | Power Weapon, 2 Plasma Guns, 5 Extra Stormtroopers | 205
Stormtroopers | Power Weapon, 2 Plasma Guns, 5 Extra Stormtroopers | 205
Troops| |
Platoon Command | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 50
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Meltagun | 65
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Heavy Weapons Team | Lascannons | 105
Heavy Weapons Team | Lascannons | 105
. | .| .
Platoon Command | Vox Caster, 2 Plasma Guns | 65
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Fast Attack | |
Hellhound Squadron | (2 Hellhounds) | 260
Vendetta Gunship | Heavy Bolter Sponsons | 140
[/table]

[Erloas]

I'll try to get my current plan for a 1500 point list up here as soon as I can. It's based on this list here.

As a general rule of thumb, any list published by GW sucks. They might not be the worst lists ever, but they are seldomly any good. So I wouldn't use their lists for a guideline, though they work for a theme.

@EleventhHour
It doesn't look too bad, but it looks very 1 dimensional. You have good anti light vehicles and MC, and decent anti-heavy vehicle, and moderate anti-heavy infantry but you are really lacking a lot of anti-normal infantry.
The hellhounds are good at that, but I'm not sure if its enough. Since you have an extra FA slot I would also field your hellhounds as 2 seperate units to give you more versatility. I would probably switch 2-3 of the infantry squads to heavy bolters, or maybe a dedicated heavy bolter team. Either way you would still have 10ish units with plasma guns which would still very much fit your theme.

The plasma guns simply don't have the rate of fire to deal with something like Orks or Tyranids, or other IG. It could also be an issue against any other army that went fairly numbers heavy.

[Oslecamo]

No, lacking a hat says you're badass. Having a big hat says you're in charge.

No, no the true sign of leadership in the 40k universe are pauldrons!

Look at space marines! The higher your ranck, the bigger your pauldrons! Terminator ones are huge!

Also ork warbosses have some freaking big pauldrons.

And then we have the emprah!
http://1d4chan.org/images/7/78/Emperor.jpg

I challenge you to find anothher human in the 40k verse with bigger pauldrons than the god-emperor all mighty!

[Erloas]

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/headquarters/comics/00355.jpg

It depends on the group though, Eldar are more hats then shoulders, and I think IG are as well. But yes, GW does love their shoulder pads.

[Oslecamo]

Everybody knows that eldars are sissies, and IG, well, they're the cannon fodder of the emperium.

Creed however gets honorary pauldrons in the form of his huge coat, for his remarkable deeds kicking chaos ass.

Tau commanders have pauldrons that shoot missiles! Or they simply mount railguns on their shoulders.:smalltongue:

(and for the record, I believe the noob's guild leader is the emprah spending his free time in the golden throne playing clichequest)

[EleventhHour]

@EleventhHour
It doesn't look too bad, but it looks very 1 dimensional. You have good anti light vehicles and MC, and decent anti-heavy vehicle, and moderate anti-heavy infantry but you are really lacking a lot of anti-normal infantry.
The hellhounds are good at that, but I'm not sure if its enough. Since you have an extra FA slot I would also field your hellhounds as 2 seperate units to give you more versatility. I would probably switch 2-3 of the infantry squads to heavy bolters, or maybe a dedicated heavy bolter team. Either way you would still have 10ish units with plasma guns which would still very much fit your theme.

The plasma guns simply don't have the rate of fire to deal with something like Orks or Tyranids, or other IG. It could also be an issue against any other army that went fairly numbers heavy.

I was hoping mostly that the spray of short-range lasgun fire would be able to help deal against enemy swarm armies, but mostly I'm just trusting in numbers to help compensate against light infantry. (The army was supposed to be anti-Space Marine, mostly anyway.)

[KilltheToy]

EDIT: Not really sure that was 1500.





I challenge you to find anothher human in the 40k verse with bigger pauldrons than the Corpse God of Man!

Fixed it for you :smalltongue:

[Cheesegear]

{table]Unit| Upgrades | Points
HQ | |
Company Command | Power Weapon (Commander), Regimental Standard, Vox Caster, Master of Ordinance, Chimera | 175
Elites | |
Stormtroopers | Power Weapon, 2 Plasma Guns, 5 Extra Stormtroopers | 205
Stormtroopers | Power Weapon, 2 Plasma Guns, 5 Extra Stormtroopers | 205
Troops| |
Platoon Command | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 50
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Meltagun | 65
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Heavy Weapons Team | Lascannons | 105
Heavy Weapons Team | Lascannons | 105
. | .| .
Platoon Command | Vox Caster, 2 Plasma Guns | 65
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Infantry Squad | Vox Caster, Plasma Gun | 70
Fast Attack | |
Hellhound Squadron | (2 Hellhounds) | 260
Vendetta Gunship | Heavy Bolter Sponsons | 140
[/table]


I'll second what Erloas said;


Since you have an extra FA slot I would also field your hellhounds as 2 seperate units to give you more versatility.

Other than that though, I disapprove of having Heavy Weapon Teams. Take those three Lascannons and put them back in your Infantry squads. Costs 60 points. To put three Lascannons in three Infantry squads (that you already have, so the cost of the Infantry Squad itself doesn't factor in). Three Lascannons in a Heavy Weapon squad...Cost, well, 105 points. Not only that, but a Heavy Weapon Team has to resolve all it's shots at one target. With three separate Lascannons you will end up wasting less fire.


I would probably switch 2-3 of the infantry squads to heavy bolters, or maybe a dedicated heavy bolter team

Yes. By all means, put Heavy Bolters in squads. I like Autocannons in my squads (same points), since I put all my Heavy Bolters on my vehicles. But don't make 'teams' out of them. It comes down to 15 points versus 75 points. That being said, Mortar Teams (the only teams worth having) make excellent Troop killers.

...By now you've saved enough points for a Chimera or two.


Either way you would still have 10ish units with plasma guns which would still very much fit your theme.

I'm pretty sure it was Discord that had the theme. This list just happens to look similar. :smallwink:

[Dark Faun]

Plasmaguns for the Plasmagun God! :smallwink:

I second Cheesegear in putting heavy weapons, other than those good old mortars, in normal infantry squads (or grenadiers if you play Vostroyans). It allows you to shoot at more targets. Sure, it's only one lascannon shot by squad, but if it fails to destroy the tank just aim a second squad at it, whereas three lascannons can end with two useless lascannons because the first one was enough to reduce the vehicle to smithereens.

[EleventhHour]

But the thing is, those Heavy Weapons Teams get to sit there, my infantry has to charge for the First Rank - Second Rank with my Command. And I prefer drowning them in infantry than having 9 guys stand around, because the Lascannon has to take a shot at a tank.

::Though, I probably should stick HB's in some squads. :smallsmile:

[Dark Faun]

Ah, yes, this tactic doesn't work as well if your infantry squads aren't static. However, one heavy weapon can be useful once your squad is entrenched in an objective.

But I'm no good player anyway - I played my only game ever today and I lost to a Daemonhunters Land Raider. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Originally posted by EleventhHour
But the thing is, those Heavy Weapons Teams get to sit there, my infantry has to charge for the First Rank - Second Rank with my Command. And I prefer drowning them in infantry than having 9 guys stand around, because the Lascannon has to take a shot at a tank.

You forget, those 'nine other guys' are actually cover saves for your Heavy Weapon. :smallamused:

And, it seems to me that you're falling for the same mistakes that most rookie Guard players do, y'know, the one where you think that your HQ is actually effective in assault. Command Assault only works on weak, non-assault units like Guardians. But, if your command is in assault, it's not back with the rest of the army providing Ld (via Regimental Standard) and probably out of range to give Orders.
Not to mention that moving forward makes your Master of Ordnance totally useless. Drop him for double bodyguards.
Your 'spare' veterans in Command should likewise be carrying pistols.

...I also note a distinct lack of Chimera Transport. Although, that may be taken care of by the Vendetta (which isn't as good, by the way).

Another option, for your second Infantry Squad, is to drop all those plasmaguns for Grenade Launchers (which frees up a lot of points, not to mention giving you Frag templates instead of relying on BS3). Use Combine Squads, get a Commissar and a Priest (since Combine Squads make all five units 'the same squad', the Advisors' benefits carry to all 50 men. You also only need one vox for all five squads). Find points to stack Power Weapons/Fists on your Sergeants and even the Commissar.
As you move forward, you should be dropping Frag Templates to soften your targets before you get to Assault.
Again, because all 50 men are part of the same unit, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! becomes somewhat deadly.

Because, obviously, if you're not carting Heavy Weapons, you should be moving forward, if you're moving forward without a Transport, you're going to get shot at. So, make sure you have a lot of Boyz Linesmen.

...If this second 'Assault Platoon' is modeled using Catachans, you get bonus points.


But I'm no good player anyway - I played my only game ever today and I lost to a Daemonhunters Land Raider. :smallwink:

Okay class, who saw that coming? I know I did. :smallamused:

[EleventhHour]

You forget, those 'nine other guys' are actually cover saves for your Heavy Weapon. :smallamused:

And, it seems to me that you're falling for the same mistakes that most rookie Guard players do, y'know, the one where you think that your HQ is actually effective in assault. Command Assault only works on weak, non-assault units like Guardians. But, if your command is in assault, it's not back with the rest of the army providing Ld (via Regimental Standard). Not to mention that moving forward makes your Master of Ordnance totally useless. Drop him for double bodyguards. Your 'spare' veterans in Command should likewise be carrying pistols.

Actually, I don't think they'd stand a chance at all in Assault. I never plan on taking them out of the Chimera. It moves up with the troops so that it's always close enough to support, or to use a Tank Shock and push a combat apart if the Guardsmen bother surviving onto my turn. And of course I'll take a turn now and then for the MoO to take a shot. The Chimmy just has to hold the middle of the line, covering the overlap for the two Platoon commands.

Another option, for your second Infantry Squad, is to drop all those plasmaguns for Grenade Launchers (which frees up a lot of points, not to mention giving you Frag templates instead of relying on BS3). Use Combine Squads, get a Commissar and a Priest (since Combine Squads make all five units 'the same squad', the Advisors' benefits carry to all 50 men. You also only need one vox for all five squads). Find points to stack Power Weapons/Fists on your Sergeants and even the Commissar.
As you move forward, you should be dropping Frag Templates to soften your targets before you get to Assault.
Again, because all 50 men are part of the same unit, First Rank, FIRE! Second Rank, FIRE! becomes somewhat deadly.

I would actually like to get the Powerfists. Going to look into getting a few points from somewhere in the list for them. Like all the appearntly useless Voxes. (Didn't realize that I only needed one per. >.>)

But 50 troopers wouldn't all fit as easily into range which means either the front ranks will get picked off as the rest move closer, or the back ranks don't get Rapid Fire range, and run into the problem you were pointing out with the HWSs, only some things would survive the first 80 shots of lasgun, the next 70 are just going to spatter on dead bodies.


Because, obviously, if you're not carting Heavy Weapons, you should be moving forward, if you're moving forward without a Transport, you're going to get shot at. So, make sure you have a lot of Boyz Linesmen.

...If this second 'Assault Platoon' is modeled using Catachans, you get bonus points.

Of course thier getting shot at, that's why there's a mass of them. :smallbiggrin:

Okay class, who saw that coming? I know I did. :smallamused:

Whee! More discussion.



...I also note a distinct lack of Chimera Transport. Although, that may be taken care of by the Vendetta (which isn't as good, by the way).


The Vendetta is for the Stormtroopers. :smallwink:

[Erloas]

I'm not a guard player, so I don't know from experience, but I would say the heavy weapon teams can have some good uses. For one, even a lascannon will not reliably take out any vehicle in one shot, especially not with a BS3 guy shooting it. Ok, you might be very likely to take out Dark Eldar vehicles, but against a lot of vehicles you have a reasonable chance of penning, but a single pin rarely takes down a vehicle anyway. As such, I don't see it as being a big waste of points, because even with 3 you are only averaging 1-2 hits and there is a good chance a single hit isn't going to take it out.
Where as with the weapon a normal infantry squad you are loosing 9 shots from lasguns (admittedly not a big loss). So even if we assume you are going to destroy a vehicle 50% of the time with a lascannon (because you will only hit 50% of the time) thats going to take about 150ish points worth of 2 normal squads or 105 points worth of 1 heavy weapon team.
They also make the use of things like "bring it down" a bit better because then you are affecting 3 weapons instead of just 1. When shooting at non-vehicles such as monsterous creatures, and even really heavy infantry squads you are going to need more shots as well.

With other heavy weapons I don't see the problem either, because things like autocannons and heavy bolters are generally going to be going after things that take more hits to kill anyway, MCs and infantry squads and such, its not like there is any unit you can hope to take out with a single HB or AC.

[Dark Faun]

Okay class, who saw that coming? I know I did. :smallamused:
Actually, it was with my Salamanders. Supposed to be a 500 points battle with a captain with storm bolter and power axe, two squads of five marines and five assault terminators with thunder hammers, which somehow ended up in 750 points, meaning Vulkan, a chaplain and a mobile cover Razorback against a great master, ten or twelve Grey Knights, an Eversor and a Land Raider.

Slaughtered everything but the Land Raider. :smallwink:

[Cheesegear]

Originally posted by EleventhHour
Actually, I don't think they'd stand a chance at all in Assault. I never plan on taking them out of the Chimera. It moves up with the troops so that it's always close enough to support, or to use a Tank Shock and push a combat apart if the Guardsmen bother surviving onto my turn.

...In that case, don't bother with the Regimental Standard, since it only works when it's actually on the board.

Keep in mind that Tank Shock rarely works against any decent army. It just moves them out of the way. Make sure that your Tank doesn't end it's movement blocking line of sight from your Linesmen so they can shoot at them.
(I never rely on Tank Shock to help me with anything. Because it has repeatedly failed. So, my thoughts on the matter aren't very comprehensive)


Didn't realize that I only needed one [vox] per.

Only if you use Combine Squads. Remember that part. :smallwink:


But 50 troopers wouldn't all fit as easily into range which means either the front ranks will get picked off as the rest move closer, or the back ranks don't get Rapid Fire range, and run into the problem you were pointing out with the HWSs, only some things would survive the first 80 shots of lasgun, the next 70 are just going to spatter on dead bodies.

That FR,F!SR,F! was an afterthought. Like a bonus. They don't all have to be in range. Just...A lot of them. You don't have to optimise every single thing you do (although it does help). The difference between say...80 Lasgun shots and a Heavy Weapon Squad, is that, you (should) have another whole platoon of where those lasguns came from.

Heavy Weapons need to pick their targets. And every shot not killing something that a regular lasgun couldn't kill (a tank) is a shot wasted. You can't 'waste' lasguns. And if you somehow manage to do so, you clearly don't have enough lasguns.

But, the amount of men (50) is not to shoot lasguns. The goal is to have loads of bodies in the way so you can actually get into assault, and, maybe even win. If you're going to Assault, you have to remember that you're a Guardsman, and you suck at it. The only way to win Assault is with numbers.
Or, by softening the target with Blast Templates, Multiple Pinning checks and Ordnance.

A squad with 5 'nade Launchers, backed up by a Heavy Weapon Team (the only kind of Heavy Weapon Team I support) of Mortars has no problem getting into assault. Being backed up by Ratlings is just icing.


The Vendetta is for the Stormtroopers.

Storm Troopers don't need a Vendetta. :smallconfused: They Infiltrate or Deep Strike for free. I'm also pretty sure that STs don't get their Airborne Assault bonus if they Grav Chute out. But, I'll check that, since the wording says that they might be able to - but I infiltrate mine (for the pinning checks), and so far haven't been impressed by the Valkyrie, so I haven't worried about it yet. Also, Grav Chuting also has the distinct possibility of killing you all far more easily than regular Deep Striking.

@ Erloas: Yeah. I know what you're saying. But, a lot (most) of the Heavy Weapons have a longer range than the lasgun, as such there's a good chance that often your lasguns wont be firing anyway. I also see that you forgot to take into account Combine Squads, which actually lets you have five Lascannons in one squad (not that that's a smart move by any means. Three is more than enough).

The main point is, that the price for a Heavy Weapons Team, is something like three more times the cost it takes to just intersperse those same three weapons into three of your Infantry Squads that you already have anyway. Which you then combine into one massive squad using one of the most useful Special Rules ever.

@ Discord: So...In a 750 point game he was not only taking a Land Raider, but he was also taking an Assassin without an Inquisitor (which is illegal)?

...What's more, you were Salamanders without a boatload of meltaguns? For shame. Granted, a Land Raider shouldn't really be expected in a 750 point game...But still, what happened to those Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers?

[Dark Faun]

My mistake. He used an inquisitor (solely to be able to use an assassin), not a master. And he's a Land Raider maniac. We stopped the game because we lacked time. The Terminators could have damaged the Land Raider enough times to have a lethal glancing hit, the same way the Land Raider could have killed the Terminators (they lost no one in spite of being shot with twin-linked lascannons repeatedly). So it was more of a tie.

I'm still wondering how to use the flamethrowing Razorback I have efficiently though he works well as a mobile cover. I got it only for fluff (i.e. Salamanders' pyromania).

I miss the previous Codex, when you could have special and heavy weapons in a six marines team.

[Cheesegear]

I'm still wondering how to use the flamethrowing Razorback I have efficiently though he works well as a mobile cover. I got it only for fluff (i.e. Salamanders' pyromania).

Salamanders follow the Triad of Bolter, Melta and Flamer. But, obviously, Razorbacks can't have Meltas. So, are less fun than Immolators. I modeled my Sisters army after the Salamanders for that reason. Since the Sisters are actually better at doing what the Salamanders do. :smallwink:


I miss the previous Codex, when you could have special and heavy weapons in a six marines team.

I miss where I could have two special weapons if I didn't take a Heavy Weapon (one of the Salamanders' actual doctrines). And the Sisters can still do that. :smallbiggrin:

[Dark Faun]

Salamanders follow the Triad of Bolter, Melta and Flamer. But, obviously, Razorbacks can't have Meltas. So, are less fun than Immolators. I modeled my Sisters army after the Salamanders for that reason. Since the Sisters are actually better at doing what the Salamanders do. :smallwink:
Why do you think a Sister is piloting the turret of my Razorback? :smallwink: The only plastic Sister in existence!


I miss where I could have two special weapons if I didn't take a Heavy Weapon (one of the Salamanders' actual doctrines). And the Sisters can still do that. :smallbiggrin:
I miss the time Salamanders had 3 I and cheaper mastercrafted weapons.

In fact, I miss being able to give mastercrafted weapons to my HQ choices.

[Cheesegear]

I miss the time Salamanders had 3 I and cheaper mastercrafted weapons.

And Chaplains had Thunder Hammers for free. Sergeants could have Signums...Yes. I <heart> the Salamanders too. Originally it was because they were mean and green (and I love Orks). Now it's because all my Marines are green and I'm not repainting them.

/disappointment at Generic Marines.

[EleventhHour]

...In that case, don't bother with the Regimental Standard, since it only works when it's actually on the board.

I thought it would still count inside the Chimmy? Ah, well. Extra points. ^_^

Keep in mind that Tank Shock rarely works against any decent army. It just moves them out of the way. Make sure that your Tank doesn't end it's movement blocking line of sight from your Linesmen so they can shoot at them.
(I never rely on Tank Shock to help me with anything. Because it has repeatedly failed. So, my thoughts on the matter aren't very comprehensive)

I don't try to Tank Shock thier squads, you wait until thier in combat, then TS through the middle, (along the line of assault), and your squad and the enemy get split apart by a block of armour. Admittedly if they have a powerfist or Melta's it's the end of your tank.

Only if you use Combine Squads. Remember that part. :smallwink:

Oh. >.>

That FR,F!SR,F! was an afterthought. Like a bonus. They don't all have to be in range. Just...A lot of them. You don't have to optimise every single thing you do (although it does help). The difference between say...80 Lasgun shots and a Heavy Weapon Squad, is that, you (should) have another whole platoon of where those lasguns came from.

More lasguns the better, plus it leaves the Plasmas' out of range (If still taken, though it would be a point suck at that point.)

Heavy Weapons need to pick their targets. And every shot not killing something that a regular lasgun couldn't kill (a tank) is a shot wasted. You can't 'waste' lasguns. And if you somehow manage to do so, you clearly don't have enough lasguns.

That's the point in having so many squads. Lasgun-related death, even for Terminators!

But, the amount of men (50) is not to shoot lasguns. The goal is to have loads of bodies in the way so you can actually get into assault, and, maybe even win. If you're going to Assault, you have to remember that you're a Guardsman, and you suck at it. The only way to win Assault is with numbers.
Or, by softening the target with Blast Templates, Multiple Pinning checks and Ordnance.

Assault is more of an afterthought, the volley of 3 lasguns a piece for 9 troopers, plus whatever other squads get the Order can do damage to anything closing for Assault, leaving it vunerable when it charges one squad for the rest to close with it after and get the +1 Attack.

A squad with 5 'nade Launchers, backed up by a Heavy Weapon Team (the only kind of Heavy Weapon Team I support) of Mortars has no problem getting into assault. Being backed up by Ratlings is just icing.

I'm considering a few Grenade Launchers, now. One Platoon of Plassie, the other Launchers. :smallconfused:

Storm Troopers don't need a Vendetta. :smallconfused: They Infiltrate or Deep Strike for free. I'm also pretty sure that STs don't get their Airborne Assault bonus if they Grav Chute out. But, I'll check that, since the wording says that they might be able to - but I infiltrate mine (for the pinning checks), and so far haven't been impressed by the Valkyrie, so I haven't worried about it yet. Also, Grav Chuting also has the distinct possibility of killing you all far more easily than regular Deep Striking.

I suppose not, but I just like having them in it, so that they take the fire away from the single Vendetta, and lend support in thier role. (Fly out, land so that they bail out with a line of sight, but the Gunship stays behind cover, and hopefully taking out an expensive squad ( Armour 3+ one, obviously) before biting it and letting the Vendetta make it to round 2 for second tank-pickings.)




I think we just have differing stratagems, really.

[FlyingScanian]

The main problem with heavy weapons squads is that every second (unsaved) wound removes something important, or EVERY wound from something S6+, whereas the same weapons in infantry squads require at LEAST 9 wounds to remove it (although, admittedly, they might run sooner).

The reason that mortar squads are so awesome is simply the fact that you can hide them, and they still do their work.

[Eldan]

So, I have a lot of free time this weekend... anyone up for more vassal games? I might even do a little report.

[EleventhHour]

So, I have a lot of free time this weekend... anyone up for more vassal games? I might even do a little report.

I will! ...at what time? (Not in the next... 16 hours. I need sleep/work.)

[Eldan]

Hmm. 16 hours from now would mean 4AM over here. So, that's not really an ideal time :smalltongue: A little later, then.

[EleventhHour]

Hmm. 16 hours from now would mean 4AM over here. So, that's not really an ideal time :smalltongue: A little later, then.

I know. It's 6:30 AM here. But I work from 6 - 3 AM. :smallfrown:

[Zorg]

Salamanders follow the Triad of Bolter, Melta and Flamer. But, obviously, Razorbacks can't have Meltas.

The FrogWorld have rules in IA:2, now available for free, for MM razors:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/ia2-update.pdf

[Zincorium]

Alright, I've made the dive and purchased a small army.

This has led to the odd coindidence of several of my co-workers on the ship noticing my figurines and deciding to get into the game once we pull back into port. Two of them are going to get basic sets, for the Tau and Tyranid armies, and probably not much more. I'm considering getting the Assault on Black Reach set for variety and to allow others to play.

The thing I'm wrestling with right now is this: as the only person purchasing a set piecemeal, how much stuff should I get in order to match the starting kits for the other guys? And is two-on-one play remotely feasible, with the lone player having a larger army?

[Cristo Meyers]

Alright, I've made the dive and purchased a small army.

This has led to the odd coindidence of several of my co-workers on the ship noticing my figurines and deciding to get into the game once we pull back into port. Two of them are going to get basic sets, for the Tau and Tyranid armies, and probably not much more. I'm considering getting the Assault on Black Reach set for variety and to allow others to play.

The thing I'm wrestling with right now is this: as the only person purchasing a set piecemeal, how much stuff should I get in order to match the starting kits for the other guys? And is two-on-one play remotely feasible, with the lone player having a larger army?

Depends on the set. If we're talking about the 90 US$ battalion sets, then the Tau are the only ones I'm aware of that have the mandatory 1 HQ and 2 Troop selections (this info is in the codex, which you're going to need for each army). That's generally where you should start when building an army. For much else you're going to need to know about how many points each army is. Usually 750 makes for a good short game.

In my experience a 3 player game really only works as a 2 on 1. In a 1v1v1 what almost always happens is two players gang up on the other and then duke it out among themselves. Doesn't make for a very good game.

[Winterwind]

The thing I'm wrestling with right now is this: as the only person purchasing a set piecemeal, how much stuff should I get in order to match the starting kits for the other guys?I have no idea about the other starting kits, but I can tell you what the Chaos kit contains - if the contents are similar for different races, that might give you some idea.
The Chaos kit has:
15 regular Chaos Marines - 225 points, with the equipment options probably about 300.
8 Khorne Berzerkers - 168 points, with options probably about 200.
5 Possessed Marines - 130 points, with options probably about 150.
1 Rhino - 35 points, with options probably about 50.
This is no legal army, as it still requires a leader who would have to be bought seperately and would probably cost about 100-200 points.

So the kit would contain about 700 points, the leader might bring this to 800-900.

As I said, not sure if it's similar for other races though.

[loopy]

So, I have a lot of free time this weekend... anyone up for more vassal games? I might even do a little report.

Whats a vassal game?

[Forrestfire]

It's a way to play 40k online on a 2d, virtual tabletop. It comes with sprites for the models, but does not include the rules/army lists.

http://www.vassal40k.com/

Sadly, however, the maker of vassal 40k has received a cease and desist order, so he will not be able to update it anymore. :smallfrown: The servers will still be up, though, so download the module while you can so you can play.

[hamishspence]

This is no legal army, as it still requires a leader who would have to be bought seperately and would probably cost about 100-200 points.


Or. a plain Chaos Champion from the CSM box can be done up as impressively as possible to do duty as a Chaos Lord.

It might look a bit under-impressive- but it is an option- CSM codex shows some heavily converted models where the base is a plastic Chaos Marine, so the model may be good enough to make a passable Lord on its own.

[loopy]

It's a way to play 40k online on a 2d, virtual tabletop. It comes with sprites for the models, but does not include the rules/army lists.

http://www.vassal40k.com/

Sadly, however, the maker of vassal 40k has received a cease and desist order, so he will not be able to update it anymore. :smallfrown: The servers will still be up, though, so download the module while you can so you can play.

...That is amazing. I'll download it now, haven't played in about 2 editions so it'll take awhile to write a new army list up, but I'll be sure to come back and play a game soon! :smallbiggrin:

[Winterwind]

Or. a plain Chaos Champion from the CSM box can be done up as impressively as possible to do duty as a Chaos Lord.

It might look a bit under-impressive- but it is an option- CSM codex shows some heavily converted models where the base is a plastic Chaos Marine, so the model may be good enough to make a passable Lord on its own.Er, right... I was going to mention that option, but completely forgot to write it. :smallredface:
Though doing that would, I think, leave you with rather few parts if you wanted to additionally include actual Champions.

Not that it matters, of course, as by my understanding nobody in Zincorium's group was going to play Chaos anyway.

[Zincorium]

Erm, to clarify, I am the only one who won't be buying a boxed set, as I've already purchased a daemon prince, one each of thousand sons, berzerkers, and regular marines plus a rhino and obliterators. Everyone else is using a boxed set*. I am getting the impression that since my stuff is more expensive points-wise I may not even need all of it.

It was brought up that only the Tau starter set comes playable as-is... What do the others need? Specifically Tyranids?

Additionally, the Assault on Black reach set, where is it in comparison? I'm considered the 'resident expert' and I know nowhere near enough about any of the other factions to qualify as such.

*Everyone else plans on doing so. I would have to be pretty convincing for them to do otherwise considering how much stuff can cost.

[Copper8642]

Actually, looking at it, the Tyranids also come ready to play (Warriors are an Elite or an HQ choice). Better HQs exist, but it could be done.

[Cristo Meyers]

Erm, to clarify, I am the only one who won't be buying a boxed set, as I've already purchased a daemon prince, one each of thousand sons, berzerkers, and regular marines plus a rhino and obliterators. Everyone else is using a boxed set*. I am getting the impression that since my stuff is more expensive points-wise I may not even need all of it.

It was brought up that only the Tau starter set comes playable as-is... What do the others need? Specifically Tyranids?

Additionally, the Assault on Black reach set, where is it in comparison? I'm considered the 'resident expert' and I know nowhere near enough about any of the other factions to qualify as such.

*Everyone else plans on doing so. I would have to be pretty convincing for them to do otherwise considering how much stuff can cost.

You've got substantially more points than anyone that's using just the box set: 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 1 or 2 Heavy Support. Off the top of my head I think you've got over 1000 points right there.

Looking at the Tyranids set, I think it might be legal out of the box (I think Warriors are HQ and there's enough gaunts for 2 Troops). The others tend to either need an HQ or another Troop choice. They're not particularly effective armies out of the box, but they're perfectly playable.

[Winterwind]

Erm, to clarify, I am the only one who won't be buying a boxed set, as I've already purchased a daemon prince, one each of thousand sons, berzerkers, and regular marines plus a rhino and obliterators. Everyone else is using a boxed set*. I am getting the impression that since my stuff is more expensive points-wise I may not even need all of it.Nah, that was clear - I merely intended to give you an idea of what such an intro box contains, on the hope that it's similar for different races. :smallwink:


It was brought up that only the Tau starter set comes playable as-is... What do the others need? Specifically Tyranids?Okay, let's see...
According to Games Workshop's homepage, that intro box (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020044&prodId=prod1095384) contains:
Contents: 1 Tyranid Warrior Brood (includes 3 Tyranid Warriors), 1 Tyranid Hormagaunt Brood (includes 8 Hormagaunts), 1 Tyranid Carnifex, 1 Tyranid Termagants Brood (includes 8 Termagants), 1 Tyranid Genestealer Brood (includes 8 Genestealers).Hmmm... actually, that's a legal army. The Warrior Brood is a legit HQ choice, and with the termagaunts, hormagaunts and genestealers, that's even 3 Troops. And each brood is big enough to be legal, if barely.
I'm not sure how effective this would be, but it sure works.

EDIT: Groan... double-ninja'd. >_<


Additionally, the Assault on Black reach set, where is it in comparison? I'm considered the 'resident expert' and I know nowhere near enough about any of the other factions to qualify as such.What do you mean? It contains slightly less Marines than a battleforce box for Space Marines would contain (and the Space Marine force is not legal, lacking a Troop choice), same for the Orks, but together they count a fair bit more than a single box.

[Cristo Meyers]

What do you mean? It contains slightly less Marines than a battleforce box for Space Marines would contain (and the Space Marine force is not legal, lacking a Standard), same for the Orks, but together they count a fair bit more than a single box.

Black Reach is still an excellent starter for a Marine player. The only thing it lacks is a second troop. But each starting force in that box on their own amount for to the cost of the box. I think a set of marines in that composition would run about 145 $US.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Also it comes with a rulebook. Which is normally like $55. Yeah....

[Penguinizer]

It would be even better if you can find someone else that also bought it and wants the orks. Then you could trade someone the orks for the space marines.

Anyways, I've been working on a Mechanized IG list. Here's what I've got so far.


HQ: Company Command Squad
2x Plasma or Melta (depending on the opponent)
1x Heavy flamer
1x Power Fist and Plasma Pistol
2x Bodyguards
Krak Grenades and Carapace Armor
a Chimera with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer and extra armor.
Total: 235 points

Elites: Guardsman Marbo: 65

Troops: 2 Veteran Squads with: 2x Plasmas or Meltas, a Heavy Flamer, Carapace Armor, a Plasma Pistol and a Chimera with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer and Extra Armor.

Fast Attack:
A Vendetta without any mods.

HS:
Leman Russ Vanquisher with a Hull-mounted Lascannon, HB Sponsons, a Pintle-mounted Stormbolter and Extra Armor with Knight Commander Pask.

2x Leman Russ Battle Tank with a Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer, HB Sponsons, a pintle-mounted Stormbolter and Extra Armor.

This should roughly come to 1600 points or so. Cutting Guardsman Marbo and a few options should let me fit it in 1500 points. Cutting a Leman Russ for a Veteran Squad could also work.

[FlyingScanian]

The starter box is quite excellent yes. If you want to start marines: Get the box and a box of Tac Marine Squad, and you got a quite good base. If you want to start Orks, get a box of your chosing (I would recommend Nobs), and perhaps some more boyz, and you're set to go... and the best part is, as has been said, the prize.



Anyways, I've been working on a Mechanized IG list. Here's what I've got so far.


HQ: Company Command Squad
2x Plasma or Melta (depending on the opponent)
1x Heavy flamer
1x Power Fist and Plasma Pistol
2x Bodyguards
Krak Grenades and Carapace Armor
a Chimera with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer and extra armor.
Total: 235 points

Elites: Guardsman Marbo: 65

Troops: 2 Veteran Squads with: 2x Plasmas or Meltas, a Heavy Flamer, Carapace Armor, a Plasma Pistol and a Chimera with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer and Extra Armor.

Fast Attack:
A Vendetta without any mods.

HS:
Leman Russ Vanquisher with a Hull-mounted Lascannon, HB Sponsons, a Pintle-mounted Stormbolter and Extra Armor with Knight Commander Pask.

2x Leman Russ Battle Tank with a Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer, HB Sponsons, a pintle-mounted Stormbolter and Extra Armor.

This should roughly come to 1600 points or so. Cutting Guardsman Marbo and a few options should let me fit it in 1500 points. Cutting a Leman Russ for a Veteran Squad could also work.



Where to start...

1. Specialize your squads. Having both flamers (for light/medium infantry) and plasma (for heavy infantry/light tanks) or Meltas (for tanks) might seem like a good idea, but it aint. The jack of all trades unit will be beaten by something that's specialized almost as easily as something that's "wrongly" specialized.

2) You could probably cut down on your command squad. Why the Krak grenades, for a starter? I can understand the carapace, but I would probably be prepared to cut it all the same...

3) Extra Armour. Yes, it's nifty, but not for the price you pay. Skip it, get more units instead.

4) Only two squads of veterans? They'll get plastered. Get at least one more, preferably two. Especially so if you're aiming at 1500 pts (as a rule of thumb, have at least one scoring unit for every 500pts, more if they're squishy (and guard are)).

5) Why the storm bolters on the Russes? To me, at least, those are wasted points, it does way to little for the price. Also, the sponsoons on the Vanquisher probalby won't do all that much good. You want it firing at tanks all the time, and then HB won't do much (and Storm bolters even less)

I think that's all I can think off...

[Cheesegear]

I'll have a go Penguin. Keep in mind that I don't like Mechanised since points on Chimeras can be better spent on MOAR MEN!



[spoiler]
Company Command Squad
2x Plasma or Melta (depending on the opponent)
1x Heavy flamer
1x Power Fist and Plasma Pistol
2x Bodyguards
Krak Grenades and Carapace Armor
a Chimera with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer and extra armor.
Total: 235 points

Okay...You've gone all out and taken everything. Which isn't a very good idea. If your idea is getting close and personal, drop both the plasmas and meltas and go for double Flamers + Heavy Flamer. Otherwise, drop the Heavy Flamer. Drop the Krak Grenades. Plasmaguns and Meltaguns are both better at it. Unless you go for double flamers, in which case you have points for Meltabombs. Drop the Plasma Pistol too. It's more wasted points. With it's Pistol range, you're probably not going to get off more than one round of shooting before the enemy closes for assault. And, if you're especially unlucky, the plasma pistol will blow up in your face. A Medic is also a good choice for 'Heavy HQs'. If you're spending that many points on your HQ, you want them alive.
Drop the Power Fist on your Officer, give him a Power Weapon. You don't want your Officer going last. But, most decent assault units will have Initiative 5. Leaving you to get killed anyway. Make points for a Priest with Eviscerator (which, going through this list, you can do). If you're going into combat, you may as well do it right.
...I'm not a fan of Short-range weapons on Transport vehicles. Double Heavy Bolter on a Chimera is much better at killing troops than a Heavy Flamer/Bolter combo will ever be. Multi-lasers are effective against Orks, 'Nids and other Guard. Sometimes Eldar.


Guardsman Marbo: 65

The second most overpowered SC the Guard have. If he can't take out a unit of Terminators all on his own, in one turn, then you've done something wrong. How long he lives after said POP-BANG! is up to you. I've had him live a whole game since he's pretty good in assault too.


2 Veteran Squads with: 2x Plasmas or Meltas, a Heavy Flamer, Carapace Armor, a Plasma Pistol and a Chimera with a turret mounted Heavy Flamer and Extra Armor.

...This is a 1500 point list...And you have 20 linesmen? That's it? Are you ready to be murderlised? Once again, with the Heavy Flamers, if you're at range popping off Plasma/Melta shots, your HF is out of range. Plasma Pistol, once again, wasted points. Short range, limited fire-time and a chance of blowing yourself up. A unit that tries to do everything will get killed. Very quickly.
Again with the HFs on Chimeras. Not the best idea in the world. If that's what you really want, you should be picking up Hellhounds - which are awesome.

Troops are where the Guardsmen shine. And, with the recent boost to how important Troops actually are now (they're the only ones who can hold objectives, cap quarters, etc.); IG should be taking a lot of men to every battle. This list has nowhere near enough Troops. :smallfrown:


A Vendetta without any mods.

I have no comment.


Leman Russ Vanquisher with a Hull-mounted Lascannon, HB Sponsons, a Pintle-mounted Stormbolter and Extra Armor with Knight Commander Pask.

A Vanquisher (with Pask) doesn't defend well against Infantry with Melta weapons. I realise that the Leman Russ box comes with a Hull-Lascannon by default, but it's a really easy conversion to change it into a Heavy Bolter from the Heavy Weapon Team box (which is cheap). Lascannon/Plasma Cannon combo is overkill against tanks. Like, a lot. Especially on a Vanquisher with Pask.
Triple Heavy Bolter is the way to go if you've got Pask because you can't really defend against Infantry. Once you've done that, you don't really need the Storm Bolter.


2x Leman Russ Battle Tank with a Hull-mounted Heavy Flamer, HB Sponsons, a pintle-mounted Stormbolter and Extra Armor.

Again with the Heavy Flamers? On a Battle Tank!? The kind that doesn't move forward? Stick with the Heavy Bolter, you can't go wrong with it. Plasma Cannon sponsons on a Battle Tank are full of delicious win. Drop the Templates, watch everything burn. Storm Bolter again, costs more points that you really don't need to.

You may also think about Splitting this squadron. One to defend your Vanquisher, and one to roll with the Chimeras.

The thing with IG Heavy Support, if you've got slots to spare, use them. If you want your tanks to roll together, they can still do so. If you don't want them to roll together, then they don't have to.

A squad with four meltaguns (Sisters Dominion Squad or Eldar Fire Dragons, for example) will hit all tanks in the squadron thanks to vehicle squadron rules. If the tanks are separate units the meltas can only shoot at one tank. Even if the tanks are only 1" apart. :smallamused:


Cutting a Leman Russ for a Veteran Squad could also work.

Would work. Don't cut Marbo if you don't have to. In this list (as it is :smallfrown:), he's probably the most effective thing you've got. You've spent points on everything which costs a lot of wasted points, which could be better spent on more - effective - men. :smalleek:

[Penguinizer]

Hmm, for a more revised list, I removed the power-fist and a large amount of options (Including the chimeras, which may come back to bite me), in favor of triple-meltas on all squads.

I still kept the Plasma-pistols, which I consider pretty efficient for their cost. I added a third squad as well. With some of the points that this freed. I switched to two Executioners with Plasma-cannon sponsons (Which may be lightly overkill).

The Vendetta Gunship seems fine as it is as far as I've noticed. The three Lascannons seem better than the anti-infantry option. I did opt to add sponsons with Heavybolters to it though.

This leaves the army count at: Command Squad, 3 Veteran Squads, Marbo, 3 Lemanrusses (1 Anti-tank sniper with Pask, 2 Plasma-spam), and the Vendetta for long-range firepower.

The largest problem I see is the lack of Chimeras, which means that the Veterans, even with Carapace Armor, are still very squishy. I'll have to re-convert the flamers into special weapons.

Since it's a Traitor Guard flavored army, it gives me some working room with the special weapons. I make them rather mutated looking, so they're distinct from the others, which is enough for everyone I've played against so far. Assuming I can get around to scratch-building all the vehicles, the only thing I'll need anymore is another unit of Veterans and general crafting materials.

[Cheesegear]

Hmm, for a more revised list, I removed the power-fist and a large amount of options (Including the chimeras, which may come back to bite me), in favor of triple-meltas on all squads.

...It already has. Meltaguns have a huge 12" range. And unless within 6", it means that they're just a terrible version of a Plasmagun that has better range and is rapid fire. Melta squads without Chimeras (or at least some form of Transport) are next to useless.


With some of the points that this freed. I switched to two Executioners with Plasma-cannon sponsons (Which may be lightly overkill).

It sure is. For the price of one of those tanks, you can get another two Veteran squads. You should.


The Vendetta Gunship seems fine as it is as far as I've noticed. The three Lascannons seem better than the anti-infantry option. I did opt to add sponsons with Heavybolters to it though.

Well, again, I have no comment, since I've yet to try out a Vendetta this weekend. All my experience is with Valkyries, and they're rubbish as transports, and as Troop killers, I prefer my Leman Russes and linesmen.


This leaves the army count at: Command Squad, 3 Veteran Squads, Marbo, 3 Lemanrusses (1 Anti-tank sniper with Pask, 2 Plasma-spam), and the Vendetta for long-range firepower.

...By calling it 'spam', you already recognise that you have too much Plasma. I mean, sure, there's no such thing as 'too much plasma', but, there is when it comes at the cost of neglecting your troops. Which can roll with Triple Plasmaguns. If you want.


The largest problem I see is the lack of Chimeras, which means that the Veterans, even with Carapace Armor, are still very squishy. I'll have to re-convert the flamers into special weapons.

Lack of Chimeras is very disturbing. Alternatively, and I may try this one day; Swap out all your tanks for Vendettas. And rapid assault people's brains out, with Fast Transports. :smallamused:

[Oslecamo]

The second most overpowered SC the Guard have. If he can't take out a unit of Terminators all on his own, in one turn, then you've done something wrong. How long he lives after said POP-BANG! is up to you. I've had him live a whole game since he's pretty good in assault too.

Just out of curiosity, wich you consider to be guard's first most overpowered SC? Creed is nice and all, but he's pretty expensive, and he needs another expensive unit to worck well.

And yes, guard is an horde army at it's hearth. You may have an elite unit here and there, but you have to back them up with big masses of infantry.

[Cheesegear]

Just out of curiosity, which you consider to be guard's first most overpowered SC? Creed is nice and all, but he's pretty expensive, and he needs another expensive unit to work well.

Al'Rahem. My Officer of choice if I'm using an 'Assault Platoon', which I've described a few times.

He kills enemy HQs dead. Fairly easily, too. He Outflanks his entire Platoon. And he issues two Orders a turn. With relative ease, he also does pretty well against Tyranid Warriors and Tyrants.
(But Carnifii and Wraithlords are still best left to the Snipers and Lascannons)

Like The Wind is pretty amazing.

...I also like Pask in a Demolisher. Rather than Vanquisher. I'm of the opinion that Vanquishers don't need the help.

Luckily for everyone involved, my club doesn't allow SCs most of the time.

[Penguinizer]

Hmm, Sticking all the squads in Vendettas seems nice. Even though Grav Chute Insertion is risky, scouting and then moving flatout just to drop all the meltas right next to tanks seems too fun to pass up. Beyond that, they're 3 Twin-linked lascannons strapped to a flying Chimera.

[Cheesegear]

Even though Grav Chute Insertion is risky, scouting and then moving flatout just to drop all the meltas right next to tanks seems too fun to pass up. Beyond that, they're 3 Twin-linked lascannons strapped to a flying Chimera.

You don't have to move Flat out. That way, Grav Chuting doesn't come into effect and you don't die very easily. But, I would be pretty iffy 'dropping' Melta-troopers when you've already got 3 Lascannons bearing down on said tank.

Second, Infiltrating (or Deep Striking) Storm Troopers don't even need Vendettas to get into position. Instead of two squads of ten, have you thought about three squads of five-seven, packing two meltaguns each?

On a personal note;
After a bit of hacking and chopping, I turned my Valkyrie into a Vendetta. It was far and away the best choice I've made with my Guard to date. Valkyries suck. Vendettas rule. That's all I have to say on the matter. :smallwink:

My Veterans are still under performing. Even now that I've realised that I've misread and they do indeed have BS4. I still find that they don't work. I still vastly prefer Storm Troopers and regular Platoons.
...Infiltrating (and/or Outflanking) makes Storm Troopers my favourites.

[Selrahc]

So its probably time for some upkeep on my army, but I might as well get some feedback on the list, see if anyone has any suggestions for improvements.

This is the 1500pt list

HQ
Bloodthirster 250
Herald of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch 50
Herald of Khorne 70

Troops
8 Horrors, bolt of Tzeentch 146
10 Horrors 170
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80 (Condensed into units of 10 if a kill point game)

Fast Attack
10 Flesh Hounds 150
5 Flesh Hounds 75
5 Flesh Hounds 75

Heavy Support
1 Daemon Prince 80 (Standard Prince model, occasionally used for Khorne)
1 Daemon Prince 80(Converted Deciever model, occasionally used for Tzeentch)

In addition to those models I've got quite a few models which I shoehorn in to add variation. 10 Daemonettes, 7(?) Plaguebearers, 3 Nurglings, 1 Bloodcrusher, 1 Beast of Nurgle, another Daemon Prince(Old fantasy model, occasionally used for Slaanesh), 3 Flamers, 1 Fiend of Slaanesh, 4 Screamers. A few more heralds. Couple of unused bloodletters and horrors. Occasionally model rep a rather demonic looking defiler in as a Soul Grinder.
I could maybe buy some other stuff, but I'm not looking for too much extra expense.

The strategy at the moment is to put in the Fleshhounds and Bloodthirster behind cover, drop a squad of horrors in as well to rip a lightly armoured units to ribbons before dying. The next turn the Fleshhounds and Bloodthirster try and tie up as many good ranged units as possible, and the Horrors and Herald with Bolt try and kill any tank with exposed rear armour.

Thing is though, if my army gets screwed over by the dice gods and is forced to deep strike in the wrong order.. it doesn't really work. Anyone got any suggestions?

[Cheesegear]

My opinion is that Khorne is the second worst God. Slaanesh daemons are better in combat than Khorne ones. And I've proven it on a few occasions. Flesh Hounds are good, but, that's all I really like.


Bloodthirster 250
Herald of Tzeentch, bolt of Tzeentch 50
Herald of Khorne 70

Hearlds. Need. Mounts. Other than the usual benefits provided, Heralds are way too slow without one. A Herald of Khrone can't Fleet, and has no ranged weapons. He needs to be in combat. Make sure he can do so before he gets shot to death.
(The Ruinous Powers help you if you're playing against a Psycannon-happy daemonhunter)

Personally, I'd put your Herald on a Disc of Tzeentch. A chariot would make him less squishy...But costs points. A fully tooled Herald of Tzeentch will rip the board apart (as long as he doesn't get into assault), probably one of the only cases (certainly the only case I can think of) in the whole of 40K where taking everything that the model can take is a good idea.

...And, sadly, the Bloodthirster is the second or third worst Greater Daemon. Depending on what you like.


8 Horrors, bolt of Tzeentch 146
10 Horrors 170
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Bloodletters 80 (Condensed into units of 10 if a kill point game)

MOAR ICONS! Having No Daemonettes will hurt you a bit. My daemonettes come with an Icon, and when I get a bad Deep Strike, they can Fleet into where they need to be. Bloodletters are slow (thankfully not as slow as Plaguers). My tactic is to run daemonettes up the board and when they get into position, they can bring the Bloodletters down.


10 Flesh Hounds 150
5 Flesh Hounds 75
5 Flesh Hounds 75

Drop some Flesh Hounds for some Flamers of Tzeentch. Flamers are scary. Warpfire tears units apart. Since they're Assault, they can shoot on the turn they Deep Strike down. Dropping down with 15 strength 4 shots, with a Herald of Tzeentch, who has Daemonic Gaze (free), Master of Sorcery and Warpfire. There aren't many units that stand a chance. Especially if said Herald is on a Disc/Chariot. It's also nice to have a small unit of Screamers to take out Tanks.


1 Daemon Prince 80 (Standard Prince model, occasionally used for Khorne)
1 Daemon Prince 80(Converted Deciever model, occasionally used for Tzeentch)

I never thought I'd see the day when someone took two princes instead of one Soul Grinder. A Soul Grinder with Phlegm is dropping AP3 Pie Plates, and that should never be passed on. Actually, wow...Now that I'm comparing costs, a Soul Grinder is better than a Leman Russ. TAKE ONE.

Two princes and a Soul Grinder I've seen though. :smallamused:


Thing is though, if my army gets screwed over by the dice gods and is forced to deep strike in the wrong order.. it doesn't really work. Anyone got any suggestions?

You'll find that all Daemon armies have that problem. Every single one. There is no solution. It's what makes Daemon armies fair. Similar to the Necron Phase Out rule. Similarly to Necrons, this same thing that makes them 'fair', horribly, horribly gimps them if the opponent knows what they're doing.

The only thing you can really do about it, is to make sure you've balanced your 'teams'. Unless you balance your teams so that you have a plan - of sorts - no matter what comes down, you may as well not have a plan at all. Because, if all your eggs are in one basket, Tzeentch will cackle with glee as he screws you over.

Icons. On fast-moving units. Your list has none.

Also, for those of you wondering; My armies are Orks, Chaos Daemons, Imperial Guard and the Inquisition (both kinds, and if/when Xenos officially comes out {rather than the one unit they have out now, which I also have, incidentally}, I'll be on that too).
...I also have Space Marines, but, since 5th came out and made all marines the same, I've benched my Salamanders.

[Selrahc]

My opinion is that Khorne is the second worst God. Slaanesh daemons are better in combat than Khorne ones. And I've proven it on a few occasions. Flesh Hounds are good, but, that's all I really like.

Possibly true, but I work with what I got. I've been a Chaos player with a focus on demons for a long time now. Back when you couldn't mix and match I decided to focus on Khorne.


MOAR ICONS! Having No Daemonettes will hurt you a bit.

Noted.

Where would you suggest I put them? In the initial wave only the horrors can take one, and they never survive.




My daemonettes come with an Icon, and when I get a bad Deep Strike, they can Fleet into where they need to be.


Can't I just use "run" to do initial repositioning? It doesn't let you charge, but you can't charge from a deep strike anyway.


Hearlds. Need. Mounts. Other than the usual benefits provided, Heralds are way too slow without one. A Herald of Khrone can't Fleet, and has no ranged weapons. He needs to be in combat. Make sure he can do so before he gets shot to death.

Uh... Herald of Khorne mounts don't make them faster? I could(And have) use the Bloodcrusher as a mounted



Personally, I'd put your Herald on a Disc of Tzeentch. A chariot would make him less squishy...But costs points. A fully tooled Herald of Tzeentch will rip the board apart


I'm not going to convert a chariot of Tzeentch, much as I would like to, just for purely practical reasons. Could maybe do a disk. I've got a sorceror on disk that I could cannibalize.

Why am I doing this though? The purpose of the Tzeentch herald isn't to get into combat, and if someone decides to charge him then let them. It'll hold them still until they get ripped up by the bloodletters.

As I've written the list, the purpose of the herald and his squad is to provide some anti tank ability, attempting to deepstrike to hit the side of rear armour of a tank, I'm not sure a disk would help that.


I never thought I'd see the day when someone took two princes instead of one Soul Grinder. A Soul Grinder with Phlegm is dropping AP3 Pie Plates, and that should never be passed on. Actually, wow...Now that I'm comparing costs, a Soul Grinder is better than a Leman Russ. TAKE ONE.

But it is so horribly isolated. Two demon princes can soak up a lot of fire that would otherwise be ripping troops to shreds. In that games where I've test run soul grinders they've generally just dropped a single pie plate and then been exploded for less investment of guns by the foe.

Admittedly my foes do have a slight fetish for melta weapons.


You'll find that all Daemon armies have that problem. Every single one. There is no solution. It's what makes Daemon armies fair. Similar to the Necron Phase Out rule. Similarly to Necrons, this same thing that makes them 'fair', horribly, horribly gimps them if the opponent knows what they're doing.


It doesn't really seem very fair. :smallfrown:

[Cheesegear]

Where would you suggest I put them? In the initial wave only the horrors can take one, and they never survive.

Forget about 'initial wave' stuff. There is no initial wave. There's Team 1 and Team 2. Both have to be effective, or you'll lose because the die secretly hates you.

Heralds can take Icons, so, you might find points to put Icons on your Heralds, but, that gets expensive pretty quickly. How much faith do you have in your Heralds? I have lots in my Herald of Tzeentch, so giving him an Icon was never much of a bother.
Plauguebearers with Icons are pretty tough. But, they're slow, and not very useful except for capping table quarters (but they can't cap objectives, they're too slow). I'm away from Codex at the moment, but can't Bloodcrusher units take Icons? Those're tough.

Still away from Codex; Do Greater Daemons count as Icons? Or give some sort of benefit to their daemonic friends? They do not.


Can't I just use "run" to do initial repositioning? It doesn't let you charge, but you can't charge from a deep strike anyway.

You can. But, I've found that Deep Striking right next to the enemy isn't always the best idea. A lot of the times I've played, I've ended up with my side of the board looking like a regular deployment zone. But, I have a more shooting-focused list than you apparently do.
Deep Striking Daemonettes behind cover (but nowhere near cover, for obvious reasons), and then have them go 6-12" to the next set of cover to summon has it's benefits.


Uh... Herald of Khorne mounts don't make them faster?

But, they're tougher. If you can't go fast, you need to be able to take a Heavy Bolter to the face and keep on trucking. Juggernauts are very good at keeping your Herald alive.


Could maybe do a disk. I've got a sorceror on disk that I could cannibalize.

Discs are easy. Use a Screamer, put a dude on top. It even tells you to in the Screamers section (pg 43). But, like you, I use the WHFB Tzeentch-disc, with that funky blue bird-daemon sorcerer thingy on top.


Why am I doing this though? The purpose of the Tzeentch herald isn't to get into combat

No. It isn't. It's to fly around the battlefield unleashing warp-spawned bolts of daemonic fire on the enemy. And he does it extremely well.


As I've written the list, the purpose of the herald and his squad is to provide some anti tank ability, attempting to deepstrike to hit the side of rear armour of a tank, I'm not sure a disk would help that.

I'm always wary of Deep Striking near enemy units, if you scatter onto them, you're dead. If you don't shoot them to Hell on the turn you arrive, you're dead. A Herald of Tzeentch sucks at combat, sure, which is why he needs a unit of Flamers - or Horrors - in front of him to take charges for him. Then, on his Disc, he pisses off far away from Assault.

A Herald of Tzeentch is very effective - against everything. If your one purpose for him is to kill tanks, he wont have much fun. He comes with Daemonic Gaze for free, after all. AP3 multi-shot weapons are for winners. He excels vs. troops. He can take out a tank, but, it's not his strong point.

And Bolts have a very hard time with 'proper tanks' (like Land Raiders). As I said, Screamers are the Daemon's tank-killing unit of choice. Fast, with Meltabombs. Hard to go wrong.


In that games where I've test run soul grinders they've generally just dropped a single pie plate and then been exploded for less investment of guns by the foe.

...That's never happened to me. :smallconfused:

Maybe because I don't deploy my valuable units anywhere near enemy anti-tank weapons. And I make sure my Grinder's first order of business is to take out said anti-tank weapons.


It doesn't really seem very fair. :smallfrown:

Not to us, of course. But, if I was allowed to guarentee which units came down first, and which came second, and when my reserve rolls came through, and pinpoint Deep Striking accuracy, then, my opponent would be massacred.

Of course, the option is to disregard that rule and deploy normally. But, with the amount of shooting (not very much) and complete lack of Transports within the list, it would be a bad idea.

It's fair. Trust me. I've been on the recieving end of a 'perfect plan' (stupid dice :smallmad:) and I didn't stand a chance.
What's worse, is that my opponent was using my list and my models (my list is apparently far more optimised than yours {not being restricted to model-choice helps}). And I've never been able to replicate the feat like he did. Grrr....

[Copper8642]

Anybody want to start up a Vassal game in the next... say, 2 and a half hours? Testing an Eldar list. And also just want to play.

[EleventhHour]

Anybody want to start up a Vassal game in the next... say, 2 and a half hours? Testing an Eldar list. And also just want to play.

Yup! I'll give you a run. :smalltongue:

[Narazil]

Anyone up for some VASSAL? I've been hooked, but I prefer playing with giantitp people - they seem generally more intelligent than some of the "Be 100% sure on rules OR DIE" people currently online.

[Copper8642]

Maybe later, if u still can then. EleventhHour and I just finished a match, and I have to do some other stuff now. I'll post up a minor battle report later (will be edited into this post). OK, it's here:

Batrep: Eleventhhour vs Copper8642
This is all going to be sort of vague, and the army lists are probably not 100% correct.

Her:Command Platoon, MoO, Plasma Gun, Chimera
2 Platoons of Infantry Squads (1 full, one almost full), Plasma guns all around.
2 Lascannon teams.
10 Deep Strike Storm Troopers.
Vendetta
Hellhound

Me:Farseer, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones, Guide, Fortune.
9 Striking Scorpions, Chainsabres, Stalker, Shadowstrike.
5 Fire Dragons, Fire Pike, Tank Hunters, Crack Shot, Wave Serpent had Missile Launcher.
8 Dire Avengers, 2 Shuriken Cannons, Defend.
10 Guardians, Missile Launcher, Spiritseer had Conceal.
3 Jetbike Guardians, Warlock had Embolden.
10 Warp Spiders, Spinneret Rifle, Withdraw.
5 Swooping Hawks, Sunrifle, Intercept, Skyleap.
Wraithlord, Scatter Laser, Missile Launcher.

Map was "Town Square" in the Vassal Map Pack, a city map with some buildings and ruins. Capture and Control, Spearhead. I was in the bottom right, her the top left. Most of the match had the Guardians slowly working up the middle, hailing missiles at the entrenched Guard the whole time with help from the Wraithlord.
The jetbikes charged upwards and assaulted a platoon commander and two of his squads. The assault took a few turns, because the Guardsmen consistently made their 5+ saves against the Warlock (the Guardians died pretty quick). However, he finally killed a few, made his saves, and proceeded to Sweeping Advance and kill about 20 men. He later assaulted a different squad and died without killing anyone.
Spiders jumped to the left and all got roasted and boltered from the Hellhound with some help of a nearby Infantry Squad, 3+ failed a lot.
Dragons took out the Chimera, then mostly died. The Wave Serpent hit stuff with missiles, lost it's weapons, tank shocked through a bunch of squads, then when it died, it exploded and killed around 10 guardsmen.
Scorpions outflanked in and killed an infantry squad, then immobilized the hellhound and took off it's weaponry.
Avengers sat on my objective, got dropped on by Storm Troopers who killed all but two of them, but between them, a missile from the Wraithlord, and the farseer, the Storm Troopers died. Unfortunately, so did the Avengers.
Hawks forgot their grenade pack the first time I dropped them in, but they pinned some stuff and killed some lascannons (I pinned a lot of stuff that game between them and the missiles). They also dropped grenades the second time they came in and killed a good amount of guardsmen.

Frankly, she didn't have the best setup of squads, and the lascannon teams spent most of the game pinned or fleeing. It ended with the Guardians on her objective being threatened by the few remaining guardsmen, shooting them up, but then taking a few casualties in return, and fleeing off of the objective. No objectives held, tie. Counted it as a win for me, because I had a Farseer, Wraithlord, have a Guardian Squad, and Scorpions left. She had 2 Guardsmen and a Hellhound that couldn't move and had no weapons.

[Eldan]

If you want another small game, I'd be up for it in about 1-1.5 hours from now. Get some revenge :smallwink:

[Copper8642]

You talking to me? Because I do totally need to avenge that loss from 3 months ago. VENGEANCE! Either way, do you still play Eldar? Because that's what I've been trying recently. Also, what is "small," because I pretty much play 1500 generally.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I wouldn't mind trying out Vassal soon. Note that I have absolutely no idea on how it works. I downloaded it, opened an offline game, and was at a complete loss.

[Winterwind]

I wouldn't mind trying out Vassal soon. Note that I have absolutely no idea on how it works. I downloaded it, opened an offline game, and was at a complete loss.Precisely the same for me, too. If some patient person wouldn't mind explaining to me how it works, I'd be glad to play some games with you. :smallredface:

[Narazil]

Whisperwind - I sent you a PM weeks ago, you didn't reply. Eldan gave me a good runthrough of the functions, I don't mind giving out lessons.

[Eldan]

Well, Narazil wanted to have a game, I didn't see his PM until fifteen minutes ago, assuming that he was playing against copper, so I'm without game again...

Anyway, it's getting a little late here, actually, for any game taking longer than maybe two hours, but if someone wanted to start pretty much right away, I'm online, waiting for comers. Otherwise, whoever wants to can find me online. I'm also up for explaining, and free all evenings (that's GMT+1 timezone) this week, and most likely all of the weekend.

It's a good feeling to win against people for once. On the table I constantly lost against my friends Tau. Horribly :smalltongue:

By the way, do you people think we should start a vassal thread?

[JMobius]

Given the new legal status of Vassal 40K, I'd be hesitant to do so.

[Copper8642]

He can't update it anymore, but the server is still up, and people are still free to play it. So I'm not sure.

[Eldan]

Call it the "Warhammer40k battle report with Vassal" thread?

But yeah, probably not a good idea.

[JMobius]

Might be worth consulting with the mods on this one, then?

[Myatar_Panwar]

What? Is GW taking some sort of legal action against Vassal?

If not (or if so really) then there shouldn't be a problem with making a thread about it.

[Winterwind]

Whisperwind - I sent you a PM weeks ago, you didn't reply. Eldan gave me a good runthrough of the functions, I don't mind giving out lessons.You mean me?
Huh... I totally do not recall getting any kind of PM regarding Vassal, neither from you nor anyone else... :smallconfused:


Well, Narazil wanted to have a game, I didn't see his PM until fifteen minutes ago, assuming that he was playing against copper, so I'm without game again...

Anyway, it's getting a little late here, actually, for any game taking longer than maybe two hours, but if someone wanted to start pretty much right away, I'm online, waiting for comers. Otherwise, whoever wants to can find me online. I'm also up for explaining, and free all evenings (that's GMT+1 timezone) this week, and most likely all of the weekend.No time today, but sometime during the week, gladly. :smallwink:


What? Is GW taking some sort of legal action against Vassal?

If not (or if so really) then there shouldn't be a problem with making a thread about it.Yes. It's been discussed in detail at the end of the last thread.
In a few days, Vassal will stop being updated or available otherwise, though the servers remain online.

[Narazil]

Sorry, it was someone else with a similiar avatar.

[Copper8642]

We should try getting a campaign of Vassal battles going. Like, figure out what's going on, decide who's playing as who, then when people face eachother, connect it to the campaign somehow and post a batrep here. More likely, it would need it's own topic.
That would also probably be a suitable reason to make a topic, so two birds, 1 shuriken.

[Cheesegear]

What? Is GW taking some sort of legal action against Vassal?

They are. A Cease-and-Desist order.

I'm willing to bet that the servers will go down at some point in the near future.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg246/Dezartfox/scan0001copy-1.jpg

...Although it's odd that it's dated September 2008. Maybe only now is the order being carried out by the courts (or they issued a new one, probably the same). Also, Games Workshop has a signature.

[Copper8642]

I really hope the servers stay up. It's stated that they will. If they go down... I'm out of 40k for probably... a few years. So don't pessimist on my parade!

[JMobius]

I find it doubtful that the servers themselves are going to go down, as it is my understanding that they are generic servers used by Vassal for many other games as well. Its just support for the 3rd party 40K module that is being discontinued.

I just thought it seemed like a bit of a legal grey area to be discussing the usage of what is now technically a not legal module on GITP, and that we should be mindful of whether our hosts are okay with it.

[Copper8642]

I thank the two playgrounders I played today for staying for the whole game, because I just had someone give up on the second half (my half) of turn 1. Wasted a good bit of my life, right there.

Also shamelessly drawing attention to that campaign idea.

[Eldan]

I'd certainly be in for the campaign idea. I think I'll go make a post for registrations and idea collection.

Is it possible to create larger maps in Vassal? Because then we could have 4 player games.

[Eldan]

There ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119688)

[Winterwind]

I particularly like the one with the 500-point-blocks, as my army lists are already written up that way. :smallbiggrin:That's the single worst way to write army lists though. :smallconfused:Mind elaborating why?

(taken from the other thread, as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand there)

EDIT: Nevermind, you explained it in the other thread while I was posting this. :smallredface:

I know. It seems like a good idea to new players, or players who take the same thing every game. But, for Greytooths like myself, my 500/1000/1500 lists look nothing alike. Although, admittedly, my 1500 list looks a lot like my 2000 list. :smallamused:Modular lists still don't seem like that bad an idea to me; I simply have additional lists that are completely different, while also having my modular ones - which have the advantage that, depending on whatever game size ends up being played, I have a functional army in spite of the (yet) limited number of models in my possession. :smallwink:

[Eldan]

I can see a few reasons why:

First of all, in low-level games, there are units which you basically can't use, but really want to have in larger ones. Of course, you can fit them in the later blocks, though.
A second thing I can see, however, is equipment, as I mentioned it: instead of just adding more units worth 500 points, you might wish to instead increase unit sizes, or add new abilities and items to unit commanders that make more sense in larger games.

[FlyingScanian]

However, the idea isnät completely without merit. You just need to tackle it in another way (backwards, if you so wish).

Beign by writing up a list for a certain ammount of points, preferably what they play in your local club/LFGS/etc. (in my case, that was 1500 points, though it was quickly changed to 1750). Make this list fun, and what you want.

Then, from the units you have in this list, write up the smaller lists (I'd suggest one for 1000pts, one for 500 or 750, and one for 1500 if you're aiming higher), without adding more than, say 10% (in points) in extra models. Note that you can still configure the units differently. Your unit of 12 Firewarriors in your 1750-list, might be a unit of 10, w. Ui in 1000, and just a unit of 6 in 500. But you're still using things you would've gotten anyway.

This allows you to get gaming relatively soon, and get a feel for your army. Sure, you might still get stuck with some units that are useful in certain intervals of points, but not outside (say, Land Raiders, who are way to expensive in low points, and there are surey sme units that are good in low points but not in bigger games), but this system should minimize this problem.

[Cheesegear]

Modular Lists only work for certain armies; Eldar and Tau, Chaos Daemons and Necrons being the best examples.

Like has been posted, there are some units that just aren't worth taking at smaller games (like a Land Raider) because they cost too many points. Similarly, the inverse is true of larger games. As a general (not hard-and-fast) rule, the more expensive (in points) something is, the better it is. In larger games, you can afford better units, which, makes you go back over your first 500 points, and say, "Nope, I don't need that anymore, I've got points to spare on this unit."

My Space Marine army, for example, as a personal choice, I don't use Tactical Marines. As such, my 500 list has lots of Scouts. My 1000 list has less Scouts, because now I can afford Marines on Bikes (my army is based around Scouts and Bikes). As the list size increases, the need for Scouts drops, as I now have Scout Bikers. Up to the point where by 1500 points, I only have one unit of five Scouts with Rifles. I don't need three units of ten like I had in my 500 list...

As I've brought up multiple times; Imperial Guard. At 500 Points, Infantry Platoons just aren't viable options. But, as early as 1000 points, I've ditched both Veteran squads in favour of two near-full size Platoons. My first 'original' units don't even appear in my 1000 List, like, at all. Not even 'Oh, I kept one...' like I do for my SM Scouts.

To me, personally, Modular Lists don't work. Because why would I want my low-point Troopers to be a part of my 2500 army of doom? I don't want the same (less effective as games scale) thing in all my games.

Sure, modular lists have their place, but, only for certain armies with either
a) Not a lot of (usuable/worthwhile) options, or
b) Integral units to the army. Or for people whose tactics resolve purely on certain 'must-take' units (which is a terrible way to play, IMO...Or sometimes unavoidable {which ties back into Point A}...I'm looking at you Necrons).

[Winterwind]

Hmmm... my personal attitude to list writing is that if something is not worth being taken at high points, it's not worth being taken at low points, either. :smalltongue:

I definitely see how something could be too costly to be taken at low points, but that's why it shows up in the 500-point-modules meant to be integrated into the army only at higher points.

Also, I don't have my Space Marines codex with me at work, so forgive me if I am forgetting of some unit type, but aren't you lacking Troop choices in your high-point Space Marine lists, if you take no Tactical Marines and just one minimum size Scout team? Or aren't Bikes a Fast Attack choice for loyalists? :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

Hmmm... my personal attitude to list writing is that if something is not worth being taken at high points, it's not worth being taken at low points, either. :smalltongue:

Well, that's just not true. :smalltongue:


Also, I don't have my Space Marines codex with me at work, so forgive me if I am forgetting of some unit type, but aren't you lacking Troop choices in your high-point Space Marine lists, if you take no Tactical Marines and just one minimum size Scout team? Or aren't Bikes a Fast Attack choice for loyalists? :smallconfused:

Space Marine Captain on Bike turns Bikers into Troop choices. Natch. :smallwink:

[Winterwind]

Well, that's just not true. :smalltongue:Just because there are more enemies on the other side doesn't mean my Berzerkers suddenly lose their willingness to fight. All it means is more skulls for Khorne. :smalltongue:


Space Marine Captain on Bike turns Bikers into Troop choices. Natch. :smallwink:Ah. Clever. :smallbiggrin:
And illustrates rather well why you'd want to swap the units you had at low-points out, as they low longer fit the army's new paradigm. Point taken. :smallwink:

Of course, that's the special case of the bigger army following a completely different philosophy. Now, if the bigger army just becomes more of the same, or adds units to cover possible lacks of the smaller army...

[Eldan]

The only thing like that I can see for Eldar would be Wraithguard, actually: if you take ten and a warlock, i.e. half an army by themselves, pointwise, they become troop choices.

[Cheesegear]

Just because there are more enemies on the other side doesn't mean my Berzerkers suddenly lose

But Khorne Beserkers scale well. There's no reason not to take them. :smallamused:

It's a question of Scale. At 500 points, Heavy Bolters are awesome. At 2000, they start to lose their effectiveness as tougher, heavier armoured, faster moving troops take the field. Heavy Bolters are next to useless when facing tanks, etc.

Space Marine Devastators are awesome in low-point games. In larger games, not so much...

As I said; It depends on what army you play, and what you want to do with said army. Beserkers should be in most (if not all) Chaos Marine armies because they're just that good. Scouts, on the other hand, are not so good. But they're cheap and good at killing troops, which is what you want at 500 Point games. Larger, not so much, or, at least, there can be better things found that can do it a lot more effectively. Efficiency is the key.

Deathwing is a terrible choice for low-point games. But, at 1500 points, you're rocking with 4/5 units of Terminators and a Dreadnought or two. Taste the win.

[† Dran †]

So due to the whole vassal discussion going on i was reading over my copy of the Dark angel and SM codex that I have and I was wondering about how the combat squads and capturing objectives works. Can a 5 man combat squad still cap objectives? or does it need to be the whole unit?


Also was in my local GW today and I saw a new IG tank that they had, the bloke said something about 5 plasma cannons and the fact that you can park the thing in buildings to get a save (I assume this is due to cammo nets..) But seriously.. 5 plasma cannons? Hetic. Also one that had some kind of massive assult cannon that shoots about 10 times a turn... Guard just got interesting!

[Cheesegear]

Can a 5 man combat squad still cap objectives? or does it need to be the whole unit?

No. Once they split, they are effectively two separate units able to do what two separate units can do.


Also was in my local GW today and I saw a new IG tank that they had, the bloke said something about 5 plasma cannons and the fact that you can park the thing in buildings to get a save

Yeah, but it's a lot of points. And it's actually three Plasma Cannons, but, one of those Plasma Cannons shoots three times. :smallwink:


Also one that had some kind of massive assult cannon that shoots about 10 times a turn...

20 actually. But who's counting? It also comes with AP -, so even nids get a Save against it.

[Copper8642]

Yes, the Executioner has a main turret that is basically 3 Plasma cannons. Leman Russes can also take Plasma Cannon Sponsons now. So 5 Plasma pie plates. Big fun.

And yes, the punisher is S5, AP-, Heavy 20. However, with a BS of three, S5 still not a 100% on the wound, and all armor allowed, Mathhammer says it's bad. I haven't seen it in action, though, so I wouldn't know. Biggest draw is not accidentally hitting your own guys with pie plates once the enemy closes in, but the Exterminator has a Twin Linked Autocannon that could presumably kill the same amount of enemies, cheaper.

EDIT: I have been struck by a cheese ninja.

[† Dran †]

Still... a lot of points for something that shoots 5 pie plates? Protect it well and you got an army killer there. I Assume that the side mounted cannons can shoot at other targets as well.. If so you can wipe out bunches of units rather quickly with that thing.

20?! bha insane, sure everything gets a save but spamming 20 shots is nuts. Does it get rending?

[Copper8642]

No rending. And no, the plasma tank has to target one squad per turn.

[Winterwind]

And if memory serves right, the Executioner is also the most expensive (point-wise) of the Leman Russ variants. Something like 180, 185 or so?

[Erloas]

I had a modular list for a while in fantasy and it kind of worked but I didn't see the point after too long. There were a lot of cases where part of the block would be to add 3-5 models to an existing unit and add options or switch out weapons for characters.

What I did instead is simply wrote a lot of lists of various sizes and designs and keep them with me. It doesn't take up much room to have a stack of 10 pages with 10-20 army lists on them (I can generally fit 2 army lists to a page at 1000pts or less) and keep them with me all the time. Then it takes me all of a minute to pick out the list I want to use and use it.

What I don't understand is the people that show up every single week without an army list and spend the first 30 minutes of every match by writing up a completely new army list that uses the same army they always use, using the same models and generally looking almost exactly the same every time. If they simply wrote a list so it was decipherable the next week and keep it with them they could save everyone a lot of time.

Since most people play about 3 different sizes of games and even if you tailor your list to your opponent you still generally only have about 3 lists and they may or may not change based on mission type (though most people don't know mission type prior to making lists, at least we don't roll deployment or mission type until we have lists and are ready to start) and thats not too many to keep with you.

edit: I've ran the numbers on the Heavy 20 gun, its not nearly as bad as everyone acts like. At least in terms of potential, I'm not sure about cost effectiveness. It does make the job of that tank considerably different then almost every other LR variant though. Against MEQ its not going to kill a lot, but it will devastating to orks and small nids. Sure they get a save, but a 6+ save isn't saving a whole lot of people anyway.

[† Dran †]

ahhh and there are the faults that where not explained to me today! Good tanks but yeah not as good as I thought to begin with. What's the armor saves of the tanks? Same as the Russ's?

[Copper8642]

They are all Russes. 14, 13, 10 (except certain variants, like the two we're talking about, actually have a rear armor of 11).

[Winterwind]

@Erloas: Yeah, that's what I started to do myself, too.

@Dran: I don't have my codex with me, but I believe so, yes.

[Dark Faun]

And if memory serves right, the Executioner is also the most expensive (point-wise) of the Leman Russ variants. Something like 180, 185 or so?
190 points.

With the upcoming Space Wolves Codex, I wonder what kind of Russes we'll be able to use. :smallamused:

[Lorn]

Probably worth pointing out, however, that with the Punisher can grab Pask for an extra 50 points - suddenly, it's hitting with two thirds of its shots instead of half. So 13/14 hits instead of 10. Plus Crack Shot.

Still not the best tank ever, but when you think about it, it's got a LOT of anti-infantry firepower... three HBs, a heavy stubber, the gatling cannon. Total of about 31 shots, off the top of my head. About 20 of these should hit when you have Pask, as opposed to about 15.

[Copper8642]

However, any tank can take Pask. So once again, it could be better.

[Lorn]

In terms of sheer weight of shot, it seems more worthwhile to grab him for a Punisher, however.

Though an Exterminator or Executioner would also be rather tempting...

[Winterwind]

Aren't blast weapons the ones where BS matters the least? Seems to me the points for this guy would be more efficiently used in something where his BS makes the difference between hitting or missing, rather than whether the shot moves one inch more or less...

[Lorn]

BS4 - he's pretty much guaranteeing a direct hit with five plasma cannon blasts.

Though, I see your point.

[Steilos]

Hey.

I was thinking about getting started. Well, I already did, but now I can't find my Orks, and there weren't many of them anyway, so I mothballed that idea. Heh.

Anyway, that was 5 years ago. Taking into account intervening stuff and new updates, my knowledge of WH40K's different armies has dwindled to pretty much nothing. Did I mention that makes me kinda out of practice concerning painting?

Despite all odds, I still feel like it. However, I'm not sure what army to go for. My style of playing with orks was a straighforward charge-the-trukks-in-with-bikes strategy, but I didn't think much of it.
I'm thinking a different approach. Bit heavier. More... shooty while at the same time more resilient. An army capable of putting up a wall of gunfire, and can take a few hits, withheavy ordnance to back up. I was thinking Imperial Guard. Tanks are tough, and although guardsmen are pretty weak, there's just so many of them that it honestly doesn't matter unless they get assaulted.

Any thoughts for army choice, painting tips, etc? I have a lot of work to do with this, and my budget is kinda (read: totally) limited right now.. so I might only have a full army by next year but hey.

[Oslecamo]

Aren't blast weapons the ones where BS matters the least? Seems to me the points for this guy would be more efficiently used in something where his BS makes the difference between hitting or missing, rather than whether the shot moves one inch more or less...

I think they changed that in 5e. BS doesn't affect blast shots at all now.

[hamishspence]

They scatter 2d6 - BS inches- so it still plays a part.

[Winterwind]

I think they changed that in 5e. BS doesn't affect blast shots at all now.As hamishspence said, the distance blast shots scatter is reduced by BS.

How did it use to be, by the way? :smallconfused:

[hamishspence]

In 4th ed, you rolled to hit, and if you hit, then you placed the marker.

[JMobius]

So if you miss, no blast? And you got to place the blast marker, with no scatter?

[hamishspence]

Yes to both.

[Winterwind]

That made blast weapons in the hands of MEQs and other high-BS models rather powerful, didn't it?

...oh heavens, Dark Reaper exarchs must have been death incarnate... :smalleek:

[JMobius]

...oh heavens, Dark Reaper exarchs must have been death incarnate... :smalleek:

They still are, really.

My primary antagonist is Eldar, and I've had the Exarch single handidly take out a full 10 man squad of marines in one round of shooting.

[Eldan]

I remember that edition change: went to the shop and talked ot the guy there.

He: Oh, and all blast weapons scatter now.
Me: WHAT? That's retarded!
He: Well, I think that too, yes.
Me: But I just fitted rocket launchers on all my walkers and wraithlords!
He: Well...

Then I went home and rearmed them all with scatter lasers. Now, I think that the scatter thing doesn't actually lower accuracy all that much, but back then I was convinced that template weapons were useless now.

[Copper8642]

Well, to be honest, with all that skull imagery, the word "Reaper" in their name, and their Phoenix Lord being known as "The Harvester of Souls," I'd expect them to be Death Incarnate.

Speaking of which, does anybody else see having Maugan Ra lead a squad of Dark Reapers as not the best use of his skill? Asurmen is fitting to lead Avengers, Kharandras is a great fighter and makes the Scorpions under his lead better, same with Baharroth, Fuegan is at least useful if leading some Fire Dragons, though in my opinion not much better than... a Fire Dragon, and Jain Zar will eat you if you wear armor, and even if you don't.

Maugan Ra is wielding a pretty powerful assault weapon and is also rather beastly in close combat. And he leads a squad of Heavy Weapons.

EDITED because I wanted to comment on Eldan's ninja-post: Yeah, but Eldar Missile Launchers are epic win. S4, AP4, pinning. A great weapon to hail at your enemies for an entire match.

[Erloas]

But don't forget that when you placed the blast markers you still had to roll the 4+ for partials. Removing that made blast weapons a lot better, especially things like flamers that got a lot of partials.

[Eldan]

Well... it's just that all Phoenix kings, with their combat skills and tons of attacks are good in cc.

But Maugan Ra has a powerful ranged weapon, some abilities that help with shooting and no close combat gear. So he isn't all that great. He just has no abilities that help anyone except himself.

[Eldan]

Yeah, I'm using them again, after testing the scatter mechanics. I wrote "I was convinced that they suck." I see now that they are still good.

[Copper8642]

His gun has an Executioner built in. So it's an S6 Power Weapon.
And yeah, just making sure you put the missiles back in. Can't be too sure.

[hamishspence]

An Executioner is passable combat gear.

EDIT: Ninjaed.

And Acute Senses works for whole squad, if night fighting.

[Winterwind]

Fuegan is at least useful if leading some Fire Dragons, though in my opinion not much better than... a Fire Dragon, Fuegan is, I believe, designed to just not die. I mean, how much more durable can a character get - he can hide in a squad, he has an armour save of 2, is an Eternal Warrior and has Feel No Pain? :smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

Put Ghazghull Thraka in a squad with a Painboy and you've got the Eternal Warrior + 2+ save + Feel No pain combination, but yes, its rare to get all 3.

[Eldan]

Wow, epic. I managed to miss all that when reading it. Okay, so he has an S6 power weapon and acut senses. That makes him actually quite a bit better.

Heh, I remember that time when we did, what was it called Kill Team. Where you get to build a unit of whatever models you want and send them into a complex to kill a target while it's guarded by mooks.

Well, I used all phoenix kings. Against approximately 500 Tau drones.

[Steilos]

So wait, rawket lawnchairs are now scatter, and partial hits were removed? Wow, that's quite a hefty change. Obv. I need a new rulebook...

I might go with imperial guard afterall. There's just a certain...charm in how totally expendable all the extremely animated and emotive those little guys are. And then there's big tanks. Lots of them.

[Dark Faun]

I need a new rulebook...
If you're playing Orks or Space Marines, buying the Assault on Black Reach box instead of a rulebook may be a good idea since it comes with an abridged rulebook and about $200 worth of models for less than half this price.

[FlyingScanian]

So if you miss, no blast? And you got to place the blast marker, with no scatter?

Correct, unless it was ordnance blast. Then you used Scatter +1d6, no matter BS...

By the way, a Punisher Gatling Cannon (just the HEavy 20, not any other weapons on the tank), would statistically kill approx. 7 ork boyz in a shooting phase. Doesn't seem all that impressive to me, actually.

And Pask is much better in an exterminator (t/l autocannons), preferably with 3 Heavy Bolters (say Hi to what approximates 4 t/l S8 shots and 9 S6 against vehicles)... that's my plan once I get going, at least...

[Steilos]

That would be rather nice but unofortunately I'm thinkin' IG. Anything available of the sort for them?

[hamishspence]

By the way, a Punisher Gatling Cannon (just the HEavy 20, not any other weapons on the tank), would statistically kill approx. 7 ork boyz in a shooting phase. Doesn't seem all that impressive to me, actually.


When you compare the average kill rate of the gun to that of other main guns, its more impressive. It's quite competitive even next to the Titan Gatling Bolter.

For a sample, vs Boyz:

8 BS3 Gatling bolters-120 shots, 60 hits, 50 dead Boyz
9 BS3 Punisher cannons-180 shots, 90 hits, 60 wounds, 50 dead Boyz

(these are averages)

And even against high armour guys, the rate of fire makes up for the lack of AP.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Nope. Might try eBay to get the basic stuff it comes with. Like this one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Warhammer-40k-Rulebook-Templets-more-Black-Reach_W0QQitemZ120451200908QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0b73778c&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_500wt_975)

[Zorg]

When you compare the average kill rate of the gun to that of other main guns, its more impressive. It's quite competitive even next to the Titan Gatling Bolter.

And even against high armour guys, the rate of fire makes up for the lack of AP.

The Gatling Blaster spits out six str 8 ap3 large blasts a turn. I think you mean the Vulcan Mega Bolter, which is easily the worst titan class weapon out there. I mean Str6 on a titan, seriously? A full 15 shots will knock down two void fields on average, or kill 9.5 T4 or less enemies a turn, not even good for killing masses of orks. That's at BS4 - it's even worse on the Stormlord [/rant]

I've been analysing titan weapons in detail - their use, damage, usefulness etc and will be putting up the results on my blog when I get around to it (possibly around the same time Dark Eldar get their new codex). I've got my basics in part 1 (http://collegiatitanica.blogspot.com/2009/07/choosing-titan-weapons-pt-1.html) already.

[hamishspence]

yes- the Vulcan Mega Bolter. It may be the worst Titan grade weapon, but its still heavier than most normal sized tank guns.

[Zorg]

Barely heavier - it has AP3 for sure, but is weaker than an Autocannon, which most people rate for popping light armour at best.

At BS4 you'll get on average 10 hits.
Against T4 and under = 8.3 wounds
T5 = 6.6 wounds
AV10/T6 = 5 damaging hits (2 glance, 3 pen)
AV11/T7 = 3.3 (1.5 glance, 1.5 pen)
AV12/T8 = 1.6 (glancing hits only)
AV13/T9 or more is impossible to damage.

If you can't even reliably kill a Wraithlord in one (or rather 15) shots from a titan something's wrong. Even a 5 man terminator squad will be fairly survivable, loosing one guy on average.

Sure it's actually very killy, but on a superheavy there are so many better options than the VMB, that anything that can take it really shouldn't. Even a Stormlord's main firepower should be coming from loading it with heavy weapons teams - 20 models can fire from it, and on the move too. Stick 20 heavy bolter teams in it for some real anti infantry firepower, or 20 lascannons and go tank hunting.

[Myatar_Panwar]

As far as I can tell, hammish is in no way voting for the Mega Bolter as a titan weapon Zorg. He is saying that the Punisher Cannon is comparable to it.

[hamishspence]

Yes- I was pointing out that, as the smallest Titan weapon, the smallest of the "super heavy tank main weapons" the fact that the Punisher main gun is almost as good speaks quite well for the Punisher (though rather badly for the Mega Bolter)

[Steilos]

Alright, so I have to buy everything. That.. May be a problem. Unfortunetly, I am a rather forgetful personality. I'm worried that if it takes me a year to get things done, then I'll have forgotten by then. Ah well. You sure there's nothing for IG? Or even a way to play without minatures, least until I find a club and buy an army? I mean, considering the amount of models you need...

[Winterwind]

Well, if you are looking for a way to play without miniatures, there's Vassal, and the friendly thread next door concerned with it... :smallwink:

[Wraith]

Maugan Ra is wielding a pretty powerful assault weapon and is also rather beastly in close combat. And he leads a squad of Heavy Weapons.

I kind of agree with you, in a way. Maugan Ra probably is the least-complimentary of the Phoenix Lords, in that the other take their Aspect and turns it up to 11 while his skills - as said previously - only benefit himself. That he has a Shuriken Cannon (AP 5) in a squad of MEQ-killers does really seem to add much to the equasion that a normal exarch with a missile launcher couldn't.

Having said that, if that's all you use him for then you're doing it wrong. :smalltongue:

The bane of a Dark Reaper's existence is Deep Striking units; popping up right behind them for a round of shooting and then threatening a murderous charge in the next turn. Sure the Reapers'll probably kill a couple first, but even they struggle against Terminator Armour, the most notorious of DS'ing units.
Maugan Ra, however, is unique in that he is a Phoenix Lord that fills in a very different role to the rest of his Aspect, and takes the fight to the enemy to protect his squad.

A unit Deep Strikes behind the Dark Reapers, and shots are fired. In the Eldar turn, Maugan Ra can declare that he is leaving the unit in order to become an Independant Character again. Then he moves forward and fires his Assault-ing cannon, while the Reapers take some shots with their own weapons (they haven't moved, after all), and then in the Assault Phase 'Ra lunges into combat with a much smaller Squad with his ridiculous number of attacks, ludicrous initiative and a strength 6 Power Weapon.
Bye bye, Terminators, and pretty much anything else that happens to be standing nearby.

Unique is the word, I think. You wouldn't expect Fuegan to lead a squad of Fire Dragons against a horde-based army, Jain Zar certainly won't do you any good if your Howling Banshees are taking pot-shots at snipers, and you'd suffer the consequences if you did give it a try. Maugan Ra, on the other hand? Aspect Warriors are lop-sided in the speciality by definition, and he is specifically built to fill in the gap. Bizarre, but true. :smallsmile:


That would be rather nice but unofortunately I'm thinkin' IG. Anything available of the sort for them?

The Imperial Guard Battleforce Boxed Set (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod2030001&rootCatGameStyle=) is usually a good place to start. It takes very little effort to turn it into a functioning army (Just Add Codex, and possibly one or two models of you really must) and it's a good core to build around. Plus, you save money compared to buying them all seperately.

As for painting advice, there's dozens of tutorials online (The GW Website is handy for Imperial Guard in particular) but nothing beats practice.
Consider investing in a box of Troopers - or beg/borrow a few from a GW store, if you ask for a painting tutorial from one of the staff - for the sole purpose of practising your technique on. That's usually good as you will have 3 or 4 or 5 models to find a nice colour scheme, and another 5 or 6 to repeat and refine it upon.

If all else fails, just paint over them and try again. They're only 'Practice' models, it's not the end of the world if they start looking a bit lumpy :smallbiggrin:

[Winterwind]

A rules question regarding Necron Wraiths.
They have a rule that, because they "can intangibly pass through terrain", they regard no terrain as impassable and never have to take Difficult Terrain tests. They also move like jetbikes.
On the other hand, a jetbike using turboboosters is not allowed to move into Difficult Terrain.
So - may Wraiths use turboboosters and yet move through Difficult Terrain, or not? Their rule never explicitly states they can, but the reasoning of the rule would indirectly imply that they should be able to...

[Myatar_Panwar]

I would think that because the rulebook says that jetbikes "cannot move through difficult terrain", it can't move through it. The wraiths rule probably just says that it doesn't have to take difficult terrain tests when it enters difficult terrain. If it can't enter, it doesn't matter.

There might be some faq on this. Too lazy to check.

[Winterwind]

The formulation on the scarabs (who have a similar rule) makes it perfectly clear they cannot enter difficult terrain while using their turbobooster.
The wraiths' one is worded less clearly...

[Cheesegear]

Also, I've been sitting on Vassal for a while and nobody is showing up. I'm pretty sure no-one around knows how to start a game - myself included. :smalltongue:

But, once I'm able to setup my own game, I'll be right as...Sunshine.

[Eldan]

Starting a game is pretty simple, actually...
In the server list, there's an empty box, labeled "Create New Game". Just enter the name of your game there. Done.

To load a map, it seems you ahve to do it while starting up vassal. (I.e. when it asks you if you want to create an offline game or load an old one) At least, it didn't work any other way for me.

[Winterwind]

So, as I've mentioned in the other thread already, I had my first Vassal game yesterday, 500 points, against a Tau player.

My list was
Chaos Lord, terminator armour, daemon weapon - 145 pts.
6 Chaos Space Marines, meltagun - 100 pts.
5 Plague Marines, flamer - 120 pts.
5 Plague Marines, plasma gun - 130 pts.
Total: 495 pts. The Lord was attached to the Plague Marines with flamer.
My opponent had, I believe
Tau Commander Shas'el, crisis suit with burst cannon, missile pod, iridium plating, maybe something else
2 Crisis Suits, not entirely sure about the equipment; one had a plasma gun, the other some flamer-type weapon, and both had some other armament, too.
7 Fire Warriors
7 Fire Warriors in a Devilfish, led by a... Shas'ui? with some equipment
I may be forgetting some piece of equipment or the exact model numbers in his units.

It was an Annihilation match, and an annihilation it became - at the end of the 6th turn, all I had lost were 6 of my Plague Marines (4 from one squad, 2 from the other), while all he had left was the Devilfish.

He admittedly had some tremendous amounts of bad luck; while he'd often miss a lot more than probability would suggest, I'd more often than not cancel all the wounds he'd manage to shoot via armour or Feel No Pain. And as soon as my Lord with his Plague Marine escort got into assault range, he was utterly eradicated.

Now, my question... are Plague Marines seriously balanced? Those things just wouldn't die; no matter what he did, I just kept advancing, killing more with shooting than I lost - against a Tau! - and utterly destroyed him once in close combat.
So... are those things overpowered, and I should cut down on them for the sake of fair play? Or was it just bad luck/poor army composition on his part?

[Copper8642]

Yeah, Plague Marines are tough, but I'm not one to complain about (or even really know about) what is and isn't balanced.

Also, before, we were talking about how many units have 2+ armor, FNP, and Eternal Warrior? Ghazghull Thraka has a higher toughness, but if Fuegan is in the same army as a Farseer, he can reroll his 2+ save (anybody know if Fortune would allow FNP rerolls as well?)

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, Plague Marines are tough, but I'm not one to complain about (or even really know about) what is and isn't balanced.

Also, before, we were talking about how many units have 2+ armor, FNP, and Eternal Warrior? Ghazghull Thraka has a higher toughness, but if Fuegan is in the same army as a Farseer, he can reroll his 2+ save (anybody know if Fortune would allow FNP rerolls as well?)

Pretty sure it specifies armour save

[Copper8642]

No, it specifies "failed saves." I don't know if FNP counts as a "save."

They worded it like that to include Invulnerable saves in it, but hey, it could make Fuegan a complete beast (who would die to a couple of power weapons, but hey).

[Winterwind]

I'm pretty sure FNP is not a save.

[Narazil]

I'm pretty sure FNP is not a save.
I'd call it a check, not a save.

[Wraith]

The rulebook definitely describes Feel No Pain as an 'ability', not a save. Fortune won't work, which is a minor inconvinience but probably asking too much for such an awesome character :smallsmile:

That is, really, all of the Phoenix Lords' biggest weakness - only one of them has an Invulnerable Save (Asuryan, whose other equipment doesn't really compare to the sheer awe-inspiring power of his compatriots).
Once an opponent takes it into his or her head to take them out, it's arguably a better option for a team of Heavy Weapon-using troops to spend a turn shooting at a 200point Phoenix Lord than a 100point Tank, and there's not an awful lot that the Eldar Player can do about it in terms of protecting them.

One thing I would wonder about, however... Feel No Pain cannot be used against "anything that causes Instant Death", however Fuegan is immune to Instant Death by being an Eternal Warrior.
NOTHING can cause ID against him, so he should technically still get to use his ability so long as the attacker isn't also using a Power/AP 1 or 2/etc weapons..?

Not that this helps much, and is probably asking too much even when it does occur, but the wording could be better :smallwink:


Now, my question... are Plague Marines seriously balanced? Those things just wouldn't die; no matter what he did, I just kept advancing, killing more with shooting than I lost - against a Tau! - and utterly destroyed him once in close combat.
So... are those things overpowered, and I should cut down on them for the sake of fair play? Or was it just bad luck/poor army composition on his part?

Given the information available, I'd say that was a reasonable result to be honest.
Even at 500 points, Tau are capable or fielding weapons that cause FNP to fail. (Twin-linked) Plasma Rifles on all of his Crisis Suits, for example, or a single Railgun-toting Broadside instead of the Devilfish (why on earth would he want to get closer to a Chaos army? :smalltongue: ) would all have done it, but he doesn't seem to have taken any.

And of course, when Nuffle refuses to smile, there's little anyone can do about it. Karma dictates that he will in future manage a 'walkover' against someone else with a seemingly ordinary army, but for now it's his turn to be the Yang to your Yin.

The only reason I'd say that Plague Marines are 'unfair' is that they can be taken as a Troop type in such small numbers. The only things to compare with them in terms of survivability are Wraithguard - which are hideously expensive and are literally unplayable in a 500 point game - but that aside they're no worse than Thousand Sons for shooting lots, or Khorne Berzerkers for being good in Close Combat.
That's just Chaos all over - you had powerful, expensive models, and he had twice as many models on the table as you. Some days, you just have to roll with the punches :smallbiggrin:

[Copper8642]

Actually, Feel No Pain specifically states that if a weapon is strong enough for instant death, even if they're immune to the instant death part, they don't get a FNP roll.

[Wraith]

Oh yeah, so it does. Y'know, I have the book open in front of me, and the information just didn't filter into my brain properly. :smalltongue:

Thanks for pointing that out, Copper. I was getting all excited about finding a 'bug', too! :smallbiggrin:

[Copper8642]

Happens to me all the time.

[Winterwind]

NOTHING can cause ID against him, so he should technically still get to use his ability so long as the attacker isn't also using a Power/AP 1 or 2/etc weapons..?

Not that this helps much, and is probably asking too much even when it does occur, but the wording could be better :smallwink:I don't have my rulebooks with me, but doesn't it work like:
- FNP is not allowed against attacks causing Instant Death
- Attack causing Instant Death hurts Fuegan, because of the attack's property FNP is not allowed
- Eternal Warrior then prevents him from dying
?

As in, it doesn't matter whether the model with FNP can suffer Instant Death or not, what counts for FNP is whether the attack itself carries the special property 'Causes Instant Death'?

EDIT: Royally ninja'd. :smallbiggrin:

Also, I thought FNP was allowed against attacks with AP 1/2, merely not against attacks which explicitly and generally state they do not allow any armour saves period (like powerweapons or rending)?
If that's incorrect, I might have made a serious mistake in that game yesterday (though I think all of his plasma gun shots that hit and wounded managed to kill models anyway)... :smallredface:


Given the information available, I'd say that was a reasonable result to be honest.
Even at 500 points, Tau are capable or fielding weapons that cause FNP to fail. (Twin-linked) Plasma Rifles on all of his Crisis Suits, for example, or a single Railgun-toting Broadside instead of the Devilfish (why on earth would he want to get closer to a Chaos army? :smalltongue: ) would all have done it, but he doesn't seem to have taken any.

And of course, when Nuffle refuses to smile, there's little anyone can do about it. Karma dictates that he will in future manage a 'walkover' against someone else with a seemingly ordinary army, but for now it's his turn to be the Yang to your Yin.Mmm, okay. My conscience is relieved, then. :smallsmile:


The only reason I'd say that Plague Marines are 'unfair' is that they can be taken as a Troop type in such small numbers. The only things to compare with them in terms of survivability are Wraithguard - which are hideously expensive and are literally unplayable in a 500 point game - but that aside they're no worse than Thousand Sons for shooting lots, or Khorne Berzerkers for being good in Close Combat.Hmmm... in that case, I'll give consideration to turning the two 5 model squads into one 7 model squad with champion. Much, much fluffier, and not as unfair in the regard you mentioned. :smallcool:


That's just Chaos all over - you had powerful, expensive models, and he had twice as many models on the table as you. Some days, you just have to roll with the punches :smallbiggrin:Well, technically, I believe we had just about the same number of models on the battlefield... (17 for me, 17+1 vehicle for him)

[Erloas]

Well, technically, I believe we had just about the same number of models on the battlefield... (17 for me, 17+1 vehicle for him)

Well that was part of his problem then. There isn't much that shouldn't be outnumbering CSMs by a fair amount. Especially not plague marines.
He must have put too many points in his HQ and crisis suits.

Plague marines die, but not easily. They are designed to, and cost accordingly, to live through fire from much greater numbers, and if you don't have those numbers you aren't going to be killing them fast enough.

As for FNP it states that anything that doesn't allow an armor save or anything that causes instant death do not allow FNP. So Str3 AP1/2 doesn't allow it, but if you happened to have a str9 AP3-6 weapon against T5 they will still get it.

[Winterwind]

Well that was part of his problem then. There isn't much that shouldn't be outnumbering CSMs by a fair amount. Especially not plague marines.
He must have put too many points in his HQ and crisis suits.Yeah, most likely. They did have a fairly long list of equipment, each of them.


As for FNP it states that anything that doesn't allow an armor save or anything that causes instant death do not allow FNP. So Str3 AP1/2 doesn't allow it, but if you happened to have a str9 AP3-6 weapon against T5 they will still get it.Mmm, okay... I've been doing it wrong, then. :smallredface:
...wait, Plague Marines only have an armour save of 3+, so shouldn't an AP3 weapon prevent their FNP as well? :smallconfused:
(also, they have only T4(5), so an S9 shot would instant-kill them anyway)

[Cristo Meyers]

Yeah, most likely. They did have a fairly long list of equipment, each of them.

If you had Plague Marines in a 500 pt list and he still didn't outnumber you then there's no doubt about it, he was doing it wrong.



Mmm, okay... I've been doing it wrong, then. :smallredface:
...wait, Plague Marines only have an armour save of 3+, so shouldn't an AP3 weapon prevent their FNP as well? :smallconfused:
(also, they have only T4(5), so an S9 shot would instant-kill them anyway)

Anything that doesn't allow an armor save negates FNP. AP, Power Weapon, Rending...

[FlyingScanian]

...wait, Plague Marines only have an armour save of 3+, so shouldn't an AP3 weapon prevent their FNP as well? :smallconfused:

Paraphrasing the rulebook (I don't have it close at hand), FNP is allowed against attacks that lacks the following abilities:

AP1/2
Monstrous creature close combat attacks
Power weapons (including fists)
Instant kill
Succesfull rending (getting that 6 to wound)
anythign that states "armour saves are never allowed".

If ti was that you weren't allowed FNP if the shot goes through your armour, Ork Painboys would be seriously rotten, what with Nobs (who they accompany) only having 6+ Armour...


(also, they have only T4(5), so an S9 shot would instant-kill them anyway)

This is correct, however he stated "a model with T5". Think an Ork Warboss or something.

[banjo1985]

I'm going to have to steal that description of FNP for when I play again, we never really know how to work it. :smallredface:

I feel I'm missing out on spmething by not having any Plague Marines, though Thousand Sons seem to have just as good staying power, at least in my regular games against those 'orrible Space Marines. :smalltongue:

[Cristo Meyers]

I'm going to have to steal that description of FNP for when I play again, we never really know how to work it. :smallredface:

I feel I'm missing out on spmething by not having any Plague Marines, though Thousand Sons seem to have just as good staying power, at least in my regular games against those 'orrible Space Marines. :smalltongue:

Plague Marines don't have the unfortunate side-effect of occasionally just milling around playing "Move 1 inch" leap frog that Sons have.

[banjo1985]

They shoot significantly better though :smalltongue: I probably miss that rather bothersome sluggishness because I tend to start them in a Rhino, so they at least get one turn of fast movement before their transport get's blown to smithareens.

EDIT - While I'm at it, what's Vassal?

[Winterwind]

Alright, thanks for the detailed explanations of FNP. I think I finally fully understand it. :smallsmile:


While I'm at it, what's Vassal?It's a virtual simulation of a gaming table, allowing one to play tabletop games via Internet. We have more than a dozen Playgrounders playing WH40k all the time via Vassal.
Here is Vassal (http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php?option=com_downloads&Itemid=26),
here is the Warhammer 40k module (http://www.mediafire.com/?uxtxjz5hjym), that contains all the WH40k models as well as an interface for easier play,
and here are some maps (http://www.vassal40k.com/download/map-packs/).

Also, because of a Cease-and-Desist order from Games Workshop, Vassal 40k will no longer be available for download since tomorrow, so if you want it, you'd better hurry with getting it.

[banjo1985]

Ah right, thanks for that. Having now looked at the Gaming thread list properly I now see that there's a whole thread dedicated to this program, so I must have failed my Spot Check. :smallredface:

[Zorg]

Yes- I was pointing out that, as the smallest Titan weapon, the smallest of the "super heavy tank main weapons" the fact that the Punisher main gun is almost as good speaks quite well for the Punisher (though rather badly for the Mega Bolter)

Ah, I misunderstood - I took you to mean comparing punisher is to other Russ weapons as the VBM is to other titan weapons. A direct comparison makes more sense.

[Wraith]

By 'against which no armour save can be taken', you also include Perils of the Warp and failed Dangerous Terrain tests, although I mst admit I'm hard pressed to think of a character that has FNP and is also a psyker and/or rides a (jet)bike. I think Mephiston is the only person who would have to worry about such a thing.

Funny thing is, the FNP description also says 'armour saves' and NOT 'invulnerable saves'. I'm highly suspicious of this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed to include both in an errata somewhere. Otherwise it'd be possible to take an Invulnerable Save and a FNP test against most of the things on the list, which is somewhat defeating the objective. :smalltongue:

In other news, I'm soon going to be starting a mini-tournament with some friends who are wanting to start playing 40k. We're making 500 point armies and moving up as they make bigger armies, which isn't a problem for me as I already have some 4000pts kicking around not being used.

My enemies are going to be Orks and Tyranids, and then either Witch Hunters of Dark Eldar depending on what the Player desides later. Here's my army list - I think I'm in with a reasonable chance here:

HQ - Eldar Autarch with Reaper Launcher
Troop - 10x Guardians with Missile Launcher
Troop - 10x Guardians with Missile Launcher
Troop - 5x Rangers (1 upgraded to a Pathfinder - I had 5 points spare)
Heavy - 3x Dark Reapers

I don't often play out-and-out shooty armies, so it'll be a nice change. That, and taking a pair of Wraithlords would be unfair, I think :smallbiggrin:

[Copper8642]

Can you upgrade single Rangers?

[Wraith]

No, that's a copy/paste error. It should say "I wish I could take..." which I missed off.

I'm slightly concerned that the army is going to get a severe kicking if anything manages to get into close combat, but such is the nature of playing against Orks or Tyranids. I don't really want to make a large alteration to include some Scorpions (probably drop the Dark Reapers or the Scouts and make the Autarch suitable to join them with a mandiblaster/chainsword), but I might keep that on my sideboard just in case my first couple of games go particularly disasterously.

[hamishspence]

By 'against which no armour save can be taken', you also include Perils of the Warp and failed Dangerous Terrain tests, although I mst admit I'm hard pressed to think of a character that has FNP and is also a psyker.

Typhus. Though he doesn't have to take psychic tests, he's technically a psyker.

[Eldan]

It clearly says "Ranger squads that...", so I'd say no.

[FlyingScanian]

By 'against which no armour save can be taken', you also include Perils of the Warp and failed Dangerous Terrain tests, although I mst admit I'm hard pressed to think of a character that has FNP and is also a psyker and/or rides a (jet)bike. I think Mephiston is the only person who would have to worry about such a thing.

Tau commanders with a certain piece of wargear comes to mind (in part due to me having lost one, without said wargear but still, by trying to jump into a house... never again).


Funny thing is, the FNP description also says 'armour saves' and NOT 'invulnerable saves'. I'm highly suspicious of this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was changed to include both in an errata somewhere. Otherwise it'd be possible to take an Invulnerable Save and a FNP test against most of the things on the list, which is somewhat defeating the objective. :smalltongue:

Why would it change? the FNP is NOT an invulnerable test. To me it feels quite logical that you can take both (and in most cases, things that would bypass your armour save are borderline to hot for FNP as well... just the orks that have it differently, but that's more due to rubbish armour than anything else.

However (in case I misunderstood you), if your armor save isn't allowed (say, due to being hit by a power weapon, even if you have an invulnerable save, there is no FNP, due to violating one of the "criteria" (see my earlier post)

[Steilos]

Well, gonna start collecting soon. I'm getting back into the game folks. Also, I have a commander worthy of leading my company.

[Cheesegear]

So, here's the only Necron list that I can come up with for 500 points


Necron Lord 140
Staff of Light, Resurrection Orb

x10 Necron Warriors 180
Gauss Flayer

x10 Necron Warriors 180
Gauss Flayer
Total: 500
Phase Out <= 5

Possibly units of 8 and 12 of Necron. Or give the Lord Warscythe and Destroyer Body combo for some Assault factor. But, Necron lists don't work too well if there isn't an RO close by. It seems there's not a lot I can do without seeming...Underpowered and Undermanned.

[Winterwind]

Possibly units of 8 and 12 of Necron. Or give the Lord Warscythe and Destroyer Body combo for some Assault factor. But, Necron lists don't work too well if there isn't an RO close by. It seems there's not a lot I can do without seeming...Underpowered and Undermanned.Necron warriors must have minimum 10 models though...

And yeah, that's pretty much the only list possible. You can vary the equipment of the Lord a bit, or replace it with a few scarabs, but that's about it.

Personally, if somebody plays Necrons in the Vassal campaign, I'd suggest we allow them to treat Flayed Ones as Troop choices, at least for 500 point games.

[Cheesegear]

Personally, if somebody plays Necrons in the Vassal campaign, I'd suggest we allow them to treat Flayed Ones as Troop choices, at least for 500 point games.

I hope so. 500 point games are supposed to be surgical strike forces, which FOs are supposed to be good at. :smallamused:

My 1000 isn't that great either. But 1500/2000 lists (I think) I've done well on. It gets progressively harder to lose as Necron armies gain points. IMO, Necron have the most powerful units in the game, but, you pay through the nose to get them, and they have a 'You Lose' rule. Both downsides go away in large point games.

[Winterwind]

I hope so. 500 point games are supposed to be surgical strike forces, which FOs are supposed to be good at. :smallamused:Well, I'm still a total WH40k noob, so maybe I'm completely missing the implications thereof and it would be completely unbalanced, but it seems to me turning Flayed Ones into Troop choices would allow for a lot more variation in Necron forces, especially in small games, while not shifting the balance too badly.

Unless, of course, somebody decides to abuse it and takes a C'Tan at 500 points... :smalltongue:
(which would probably be rather ineffective anyway, since it would cause really early Phase Out)

[Copper8642]

Scanian, it's not, "if it ignores your armor save," but, "If it ignores all armor saves." Not sure if it was a typo, but just in case it was a misunderstanding.

[† Dran †]

just a quick rule clarification if you will.

If a black Templar unit pass's its righteous zeal test and "consolidates" into an enemy unit does this count as charging or do they stop before the enemy unit?

[YPU]

IIRC consolidating now stops before you enter combat with another unit.

[Lorn]

Hm. Query regarding the wording of certain IG units... may ask in GW someday soon.

Would a command squad be able to, in theory, take two heavy weapon teams?

It says "two other Guardsmen" as opposed to "two Guardsmen" as other entries do, leading it to imply "any two Guardsmen not using anything else can take a heavy weapon."

[Narazil]

IIRC consolidating now stops before you enter combat with another unit.
It's true. They have to wait a turn.

[EleventhHour]

Hm. Query regarding the wording of certain IG units... may ask in GW someday soon.

Would a command squad be able to, in theory, take two heavy weapon teams?

It says "two other Guardsmen" as opposed to "two Guardsmen" as other entries do, leading it to imply "any two Guardsmen not using anything else can take a heavy weapon."

I believe it means two others, that aren't any of the above things, can take a heavy weapon.

Bad wording, but the taking one HW for the two of them is implied, at least. And GW has a good record of Errata'ing anything that someone tries to use (Or gets away with, that they didn't mean to include.) against the implied rule if not the worded one.

Either that or HWTs in Command squads are supposed to be really popular. :smallbiggrin:

[Lorn]

I believe it means two others, that aren't any of the above things, can take a heavy weapon.

Bad wording, but the taking one HW for the two of them is implied, at least. And GW has a good record of Errata'ing anything that someone tries to use (Or gets away with, that they didn't mean to include.) against the implied rule if not the worded one.

Either that or HWTs in Command squads are supposed to be really popular. :smallbiggrin:
Yes, I understood the "one weapon between two men" bit. But it sounds very much like I could be able to take two HWTs in one command squad.

Say....

Officer with whatever
Two Guardsmen with one lascannon between them
Two Guardsmen with one lascannon between them

Pricy, but interesting...

[Winterwind]

At least the wording of the German IG codex sounds to me more as if they meant that two guardsmen can get replaced by one HWT and that's that to me.
Of course, if in doubt, the English codex beats the translated version, but "two other Guardsmen get replaced by a HWT" doesn't really sound like something different to my non-native-speaking ears either, truth be told.

[Eldan]

Just a question: vassal has the option to give a Scorpion Exarch both a scorpion's claw and a biting blade, but the codex says that the biting blade is two-handed. Has there been an erata or something? Is that actually possible?

[hamishspence]

It says (for both platoon command and companay comand)-

"replace 2 Guardsmen with A Heavy Weapons Team armed with one of the following"

Since Heavy Weapons Team, these days, is a two-wound single model, it seems pretty clear that they only get this option once.

and yes- its possible- pistol is replaced with claw, chainsword with biting blade.

Neither the claw nor the blade, however, grants bonus attacks- the blade is "a two handed weapon" and the claw, as a power fist, is on the list of one handed weapons that cannot benefit from extra attacks granted by CCWs of any kind (other than another claw)

Since scorpion exarchs can't have two claws, they get the base number of attacks, no more, if they have one.

Some models have more weapons than the old "max 1 two handed weapon max 1 one handed weapon" rule allows- that rule is gone.

[Cheesegear]

Just a question: vassal has the option to give a Scorpion Exarch both a scorpion's claw and a biting blade, but the codex says that the biting blade is two-handed. Has there been an erata or something? Is that actually possible?

It is possible. Models are allowed one two-handed weapon and one one-handed weapon, but it's not possible to use them both at the same time. At least, according to 3/4th Ed. rules. However, fifth is somewhat noobified streamlined. So, maybe that wasn't supposed to happen. I'd allow it, since you can only use one at a time and it costs more points than it's worth.

How 'bout you check the Errata? See what you can come up with. Having cracked open my Codex, and had a look at what you're looking at; Yes. Yes you can. One replaces the pistol, the other replaces the chainsword. So it's fine. But, you can still only use one at a time.

[hamishspence]

Even in Late 4th Ed (CSM codex, Dark Angel Codex, Eldar codex) a two handed weapon and two one handed weapons was common (bolter, chainsword, boltpistol, for CSMs, shuriken pistol, power weapon, reaper launcher, for Eldar Exarchs)

and, at the most extreme, combi-bolter, pair of lightning claws, and bolt pistol, for Chaos Lords or Dark Angel Company Masters.

This is reading the army list entries literally- they say "comes with bolt pistol and CCW" and "may take combi bolter" and "may replace CCW with pair of lightning claws"

In practice I doubt anyone would try and model such a Marine.

[Cheesegear]

So, given the super-duper amount of importance that has recently been stacked upon Troops options in 5th Ed, what are people's opinions on MSU armies? Since I've been playing my Guard for a while, I've come to love my hordes of Troops.

EDIT: Where 'MSU' means Multiple Small Unit/s

Although, since Guard squads come at the maximum number anyway, and there's so many, regardless of your style of play (unless you're playing wrong :smallamused:). MSU really isn't a factor for Guardsmen.

But...In the case of Space Marines; What are people's thoughts on Combat Squads vs. 10-man squads (+/- Rhinos)? Or multiple squads of six in Razorbacks...If you're into that sort of thing (you know you are :smalltongue:)...

Is it better to have one squad of 20 Sisters (with Rending bolters :smalltongue:) or two squads of ten? Providing minimum Troop choices are already met of course. Or, even better; 2 squads of 20, or 4 of 10?

The same applies for Gaunts, Orks and Guardians.
Are Rhino/Chimera/WS rushes still viable?
Trukk (open-topped vehicle) rushes are - as always - awesome. But very fragile and killable...

Survivability vs. Flexibility...Hard choice sometimes. Although not so much for Necrons where MSU army makes little difference.

[Wraith]

A very difficult question to answer, Cheesegear, if only because 10 Gaunts are not even similar to 10 Space Marines or 10 Eldar Rangers in any way. Comparing armies and Squads like-for-like is probably one of the biggest sources of infighting in the 40k community :smallwink:

Taking a blind stab at a generalised answer, however, I would honestly say that such a decision is the same as any other 40k tactic - it's success depends entirely on what your opponent has brought along.

The obvious benefits of lots of small squads, is that it limits the number of casualties that your enemy can inflict due to squad coherency. A 10 man squad of rapid-firing tactical marines with a Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter can in theory wipe out 20 of your Ork Boys in a turn, but if you only field them in squads of 8 (I don't have Codex Orks, so I'm using that number as a vague example by the way) then he's wasting 3/5 of his avalable shots. That works to your advantage, as the remaining Squads he can't shoot at run him down next turn.

This, however, fails if your opponent also takes the same MSU tactic. His pair of leaner 5 man tactical Squads still pump out the same number of shots as a single 10 man squad, but they can pick different targets and therefore can choose to avoid such wasteful Overkill.

Against a large army of large-sized squads, the opposite is true. 5 man combat squads can pick away all they like at those 40 genestealers, there's still going to be more than enough to tear them to shreds when they arrive in two turns time. In this example, large sized squads will probably succeed, as they also will in countering such an offensive. 20 Fire Warriors rapid firing makes for 40 shots - two turns down the line, that's a lot of body parts scattered across the field.....

Both types of unit have problems with coordination, too. If you have eight small squads of Troops and your opponent kills off two of them, you still have six full sized squads ready to retaliate - but ALL of them need to be in the right place at the right time or else your offensive might not succeed as well as it should. A single Difficult terrain test rolling a '1' for distance sets one squad back another turn, and one small, isolated squad in a distant corner of the battlefield isn't going to cause anyone a lot of problems.
Six squads has just become five sensible targets, which can easily become four depending on cover, range, etc.... MSU armies should work as one large entity, or else they just will get eradicated in single file, one squad at a time.
LLU (Less but Larger Units? :smallwink:) can weather a bit of damage and return fire (swords, grenades, whatever) in reasonable enough volume to make themselves a threat, but good luck trying to get all of them to hide behind that 1x4" piece of wall, or to squeeze through that gap in between buidings and still all have a line of sight on a target!

I play an Eldar army, and I have learned all of these things through hard-won experience. Large units of core troops ALWAYS seem to catch an incoming pie-plate, and my smaller units of specialists are turned into red mist almost as an afterthought by 'whatever is left' of the enemy army that hasn't fired by the time that the Guardians are gone. Perhaps I'm biased for having done so, or that I am once more a victim of the 'Win The Game With The First Turn Of Firing' school of army-building, but then again I've yet to face a similarly-constructed army where all my plans could potentially unfold exactly as I'd want them to... :smallsmile:

[Cheesegear]

A very difficult question to answer, Cheesegear, if only because 10 Gaunts are not even similar to 10 Space Marines or 10 Eldar Rangers in any way. Comparing armies and Squads like-for-like is probably one of the biggest sources of infighting in the 40k community :smallwink:

That's not quite what I meant. MEQ (Marine Equivalent) aside, I was actually trying to ask if equivalency in numbers was okay/better/worse. So, ten Gaunts are useless. Everyone knows that.
...But...Are two units of 12/15/16 (I think those are 'the usual suspects') better than one unit of 24/30/32? Although, a unit of 32 gaunts may be overdoing it by a stretch.
Are two units of 8/10 Guardians as good as one unit of 16/20?


This, however, fails if your opponent also takes the same MSU tactic. His pair of leaner 5 man tactical Squads still pump out the same number of shots as a single 10 man squad, but they can pick different targets and therefore can choose to avoid such wasteful Overkill.

Indeed. For the same reason that (Imperial Guard) Heavy Weapon Teams are nowhere near as useful as three squads of Guard with a Heavy Weapon each.
EDIT: Usually. :smallamused:


Large units of core troops ALWAYS seem to catch an incoming pie-plate, and my smaller units of specialists are turned into red mist almost as an afterthought by 'whatever is left' of the enemy army that hasn't fired by the time that the Guardians are gone.

You're telling this to an Ork/IG player. :smallamused:

So...MSU...Divide and Conquer? Or Divide and Get Slaughtered? Depending on Troop type and usage I suppose. Like everything else. :smallmad:

I suppose in lists that have options - like Heavy Weapons - many squads are useful...Like the quadrillion Eldar players who take 'Guardians for the Heavy Weapon', the more units you have, the more HWs you can take. Same for Guardsmen.

Units without options - or options that matter - like Gaunts and Necron Warriors, numbers are numbers, this guy is that guy. The benefit I can see, is that you still have the same number of men, but, less units, so in Annihilation your opponent gets less kills, or you need more casualties before your Ld goes bust. Most of the time, equivalent units cost the same amount of points, so that's not really an issue, unless you stack Transports for the smaller units.

[Erloas]

MSU was designed for fantasy because numbers work a lot different there. Since only the first rank attacks in combat and the ability to flank an opponent is much more valuable. Having more units to get into position and a higher percentage of your models able to attack in a round is vitally important. Of course even in fantasy small unit designs are not practical for a fair number of units. Some armies almost have to do MSU, or at least MSE (many small elites), and some armies almost never do. There are some units which almost exclusively work in small units (at least effectively) even if they can come a lot bigger.

Thats not really the case in 40k. The unit sizes in 40k are a bit more set then they are in fantasy, 5 vs 10 models isn't really a change from small to big, its from small to medium. There are a lot of units that simply can't take large units. In 40k it almost exclusively comes down to the type of unit and what its role on the battlefield is for the right number of models for it. There aren't any armies that I can think of that would benefit from minimum sized units across the board.
*Guard might be the exception because I think all of their normal guardsmen always comes in groups of 10, its just a matter of how much you combine them which is a game-time decision rather then a design methodology.

As for some highly variable units like ork boyz and gaunts it comes down a lot to how the rest of the list is designed and unit upgrades that cost per model or per unit. (although the only real per-unit upgrades I can think of right now are marks of chaos, so not applicable).

Of course some people define small in unit cost rather then unit number. So a 30 model unit of goblins is considered small, despite having 30 models, because it only cost 60 points. That aspect of MSU is much more applicable to 40k, keeping individual unit costs below a certain point rather then a set number of models in the unit.

[FlyingScanian]

Well, I've been toying around with a new list for my Tau, since I usually get my buttocks handed to me on a platter. I'm beginning to wonder if it was right to go for ultra-mech...

Anyway, the new list, for 1000 pts (somewhat designed to handle a green horde, since that is my other army...), with thoughts and explanations in italics

HQ
Shas'el (Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Targetting Array, Hard-wired Multitracker, Blacksun Filter)
100 pts
You gotta have a suit HQ. Usually, I go with a Cyclic Ion Blaster instead of the Missile pod, but against Orks, range is good. In fact, it is against all things, especially when the entire army is designed around it. The BSF is mostly just points filler, since I would be 3 pts under 1000 else, and there is nothing else that cheap.

TROOPS:
6 Firewarriors w. Devilfish (SMS, Disruption Pods, Targetting Array, Multitracker)
180 pts

6 Firewarriors w. Devilfish (SMS, Disruption Pods, Targetting Array, Multitracker)
180 pts

6 Firewarriors w. Devilfish (SMS, Disruption Pods, Targetting Array, Multitracker)
180 pts
Designed around the concept that firewarriors are way to soft, while Warfishes (ultra-upgraded devilfishes) are quite good. The firewarriors are never to leave the 'fish, they're mostly there to keep it scoring...

HEAVY SUPPORT:
Hammerhead (Railgun, SMS, Target Lock, Disruption Pods, Multitracker)
180 pts

Hammerhead (Railgun, SMS, Target Lock, Disruption Pods, Multitracker)
180 pts
My main killers, lobbing pie plates at whatever may annoy me. Since I had a few points xtra, I went with SMS instead of the cheaper burst cannons, and with the target locks, that allows me to put out quite a lot of fire...


Any thoughts? Fun thing is that I could, if I was certain that it wouldn't be much of an objevtive game, replace one Firewarrior squad with a third Railhead, since they cost exactly the same...

[tribble]

Stuff about an oversize bolter.

I would like to point out that the Stormlord has a transport capacity, 20 fire points, and can fire that Sonuvabitch twice if it doesnt move. (and with that range, why wouldnt you?)

[Myatar_Panwar]

Any thoughts? Fun thing is that I could, if I was certain that it wouldn't be much of an objevtive game, replace one Firewarrior squad with a third Railhead, since they cost exactly the same...

A third railhead and people will start getting angry at your cheese (or I would).

But regarding the list: I would drop the SMS and just go with two burst cannons. They arn't even worse. I in fact like them better than the SMS.

Also note that even with target lock, you cannot unleash the pie plate and the secondary weapon the same turn. You probably already know, but I made that mistake in the last game I used my tau.

[Cheesegear]

Imperial Guard, 2500 Points. Discuss. See why I don't use (read; 'need') Veterans?


Company Command Squad 240
Medi-Pack, Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Plasmagun
Master of Ordnance, Two Bodyguards
Chimera with Extra Armour

Lord Commissar 80
Power Weapon

Munitorum Priest 60
Eviscerator

Munitorum Priest 60
Eviscerator

Storm Trooper Squad Alpha 185
Ten Storm Troopers, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Two Meltaguns

Storm Trooper Squad Beta 185
Ten Storm Troopers, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Two Meltaguns

Ratling Squad 100
Ten Ratlings

Infantry Platoon Alpha 520
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers

Infantry Squad Alpha-1
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-2
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-3
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-4
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-5
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Team Alpha-1

Infantry Platoon Beta 520
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers

Infantry Squad Beta-1
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Beta-2
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Beta-3
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Beta-4
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Beta-5
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Team Beta-1

Infantry Platoon Gamma 550
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers
Chimera with Extra Armour

Infantry Squad Gamma-1
Commissar with Power Weapon, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-2
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-3
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Combine Squads

Infantry Squad Gamma-4
Commissar with Power Weapon, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-5
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Combine Squads

Re-reading through, I thought it might be easy to miss my Mortar teams in Platoons Alpha and Beta. So this is a reminder.

[FlyingScanian]

A third railhead and people will start getting angry at your cheese (or I would).

Yeah, that's a problem... I would MAYBE contemplate it against my own orks, but that's mostly becuase they have way to many bodies...


But regarding the list: I would drop the SMS and just go with two burst cannons. They arn't even worse. I in fact like them better than the SMS.

Usually, I go with Burst Cannons, but what should I spend the left over points on? Right now, that would net me, at most, 30 pts. 3 extra firewarriors, aside from giving odd squad numbers, kinda defeat the point with the fishes (that the firewarriors are an upgrade for the fish, not the other way around)...


Also note that even with target lock, you cannot unleash the pie plate and the secondary weapon the same turn. You probably already know, but I made that mistake in the last game I used my tau.

Oh, really? Exactly why not (assuming I didn't move/moved <6" and had a multitracker). They're just Heavy, not ordnance.

[Copper8642]

Maybe he means after moving 12". Otherwise.... no idea.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Page 58 of the rulebook states that you cannot fire any other weapon in the turn you fire an Ordnance weapon. The submunition shot of the Railgun uses the ordnance template. So you can fire both the solid shot version of the gun and other weapons, but you can't use the submunition shot and other weapons.

edit: actually I might be the one doing this wrong.... are not all ordnance weapons the large blast template? Or something? I thought they were one in the same, but I am starting to have doubts.

[Winterwind]

edit: actually I might be the one doing this wrong.... are not all ordnance weapons the large blast template? Or something? I thought they were one in the same, but I am starting to have doubts.The rulebook states that "every ordnance weapon uses the large blast template, unless noted otherwise in its profile". So, no, not necessarily.

[FlyingScanian]

Page 58 of the rulebook states that you cannot fire any other weapon in the turn you fire an Ordnance weapon. The submunition shot of the Railgun uses the ordnance template. So you can fire both the solid shot version of the gun and other weapons, but you can't use the submunition shot and other weapons.


Two things. First it's called "Large Blast Template", or "5" Blast Template" now, not ordnance template. Second, even if it was called "Ordnance template", that would not make the gun firing it Ordnance, the Railgun for example would still be heavy, even if using a strangely named blast template.



edit: actually I might be the one doing this wrong.... are not all ordnance weapons the large blast template? Or something? I thought they were one in the same, but I am starting to have doubts.

As far as I know, there is one ordnance weapon (those missiles on the Valkyrie, whatever they're called) that does not use a blast template. However, just because all ordnance weapons use something, does not mean that all things that use it are ordnance. That would be kinda like saying that all vehicle weapons are ordnance, since all ordnance weapons are mounted on vehicles.

Hope it is cleared up, and you get to enjoy blasting enemies apart with both burstcannons/SMS and pieplates now :smallwink:


The rulebook states that "every ordnance blast weapon uses the large blast template, unless noted otherwise in its profile". So, no, not necessarily.

Fixed it for you (and yes, I checked first, nowitäs a direct quite from the BRB)

[Myatar_Panwar]

Hope it is cleared up, and you get to enjoy blasting enemies apart with both burstcannons/SMS and pieplates now :smallwink:

Haha, alright good to know. Though I am going to be selling my tau shortly. Putting around $500 worth of the little guys on eBay tonight.

[Copper8642]

Ok, something I've planned on posting for awhile: What are your opinions for the best unit in each "role" of the game. Divide it up however you want (CC in general? CC vs Horde, CC vs MEQs? Shooting? Long Range shooting? Anti-tank shooting?) and maybe come up with more... theoretical... esoteric... gah, I can't come up with the right word... examples: Core troop, harrying, rapid-response, gun-line. You get the point.

Basically, just name units you find to be exceptional at their roles, especially compared to other armies parallel units (if existent). GIVE A REASON! Your reason for naming a unit could be the same someone else doesn't like it.

For example, best back-bone infantry squad. Which unit (generally Troop choice) is the best core unit, general sort of "This is the core of the army" unit.

Now, depending on how I look at it, I see two different choices. If I look at it as "which unit has the best synchronicity (for lack of a better word) with the rest of the army," like, which works with the rest of their army the best... probably Guardsmen, maybe Ork Boyz. The guardsmen can lend a crapload of lasgun shots, and a few heavy/special shots, to help their more specialized units bring a target down.

Dire Avengers and Fire Warriors I considered, but... well, they do make good core troops, but they are both also kind of specialized.

On the other hand, I could look at it as, "Which one has the flexibility and toughness to survive even on it's own." Under those criteria, the Guardsmen fail. You can never seriously depend on one Guardsmen squad (or even platoon, really) to hold or take a position that you had in mind for them to do, their strength (in my eyes, I should state that everything here I am fully aware is just my opinion) is supporting the tougher troops with something, or just by having enough troops that you can overlap goals. Under this idea, the clear winner is Tactical Marines. Give Tactical Marines a mission, and there is generally a good chance they are at least capable of it. Tough, special morale rules (And They Shall Know No Fear), good mix of weaponry... good core army choice.

On another note, I'd say that if your choice for a position is an Eldar Aspect, maybe come up with a 2nd place unit too, as Eldar Aspects were pretty much made to be awesome at one job.

[Zorg]

I would like to point out that the Stormlord has a transport capacity, 20 fire points, and can fire that Sonuvabitch twice if it doesnt move. (and with that range, why wouldnt you?)

Because of the transport capacity? :smalltongue: Firing a crap gun twice doesn't make it good, it makes it more crap as it is multiplied in its suckitude.

In the superheavy category there are just too many vehicles that do the same job better. The Banehammer has a transport capacity, 7" blast weapon, and is 50 pts cheaper. Sure it can only carry 25 guys, but at moving 6" per turn max they're both rubbish as transports.

One option is to load up the passenger bay with heavy weapons teams and the like to operate as a mobile gunbase, but that just sends the points through the roof. 20 Guard Heavy Weapons teams (probably the best use of space for dakka - and has to be 18 teams due to them coming in threes) would cost 450pts for heavy bolters, 420 for missile launchers and 630 for lascannons. You could buy a whole extra superheavy for that.

The 7" blast is higher Str (8), same AP and can hit multiple units at once. It also has a nifty earthshock feature to slow down horde armies. Being a massive blast the low BS doesn't matter too much - range is the same too.

Whilst the VMB is a good gun based on its numbers, but when compared to titan grade weapons like the twin turbolasers, plasma blastgun and even inferno cannon it is terrible. All the other Shadowsword hull varients have better guns, and are cheaper.

[Cheesegear]

Imperial Guard, 2500 Points. Discuss. See why I don't use (read; 'need') Veterans?


Company Command Squad 240
Medi-Pack, Regimental Standard, Vox-Caster, Plasmagun
Master of Ordnance, Two Bodyguards
Chimera with Extra Armour

Lord Commissar 80
Power Weapon

Munitorum Priest 60
Eviscerator

Munitorum Priest 60
Eviscerator

Storm Trooper Squad Alpha 185
Ten Storm Troopers, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Two Meltaguns

Storm Trooper Squad Beta 185
Ten Storm Troopers, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Two Meltaguns

Ratling Squad 100
Ten Ratlings

Infantry Platoon Alpha 520
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers

Infantry Squad Alpha-1
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-2
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-3
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-4
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Alpha-5
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Team Alpha-1

Infantry Platoon Beta 520
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers

Infantry Squad Beta-1
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Beta-2
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Lascannon

Infantry Squad Beta-3
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Beta-4
Plasmagun, Vox-Caster, Autocannon

Infantry Squad Beta-5
Grenade Launcher, Vox-Caster, Heavy Bolter

Heavy Weapon Team Beta-1

Infantry Platoon Gamma 550
Platoon Command Squad
Vox-Caster, Three Grenade Launchers
Chimera with Extra Armour

Infantry Squad Gamma-1
Commissar with Power Weapon, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-2
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-3
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Combine Squads

Infantry Squad Gamma-4
Commissar with Power Weapon, Sergeant with Power Weapon
Vox-Caster, Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad Gamma-5
Sergeant with Power Weapon, Grenade Launcher
Combine Squads

Re-reading through, I thought it might be easy to miss my Mortar teams in Platoons Alpha and Beta. So this is a reminder.

Since nobody has mentioned my list yet; Am I to assume that nobody has any complaints and that my list is perfect? :smallamused:

[tribble]

Since nobody has mentioned my list yet; Am I to assume that nobody has any complaints and that my list is perfect? :smallamused:

Try tl:dr.

[FlyingScanian]

Since nobody has mentioned my list yet; Am I to assume that nobody has any complaints and that my list is perfect? :smallamused:

It's... very different from howI would play IG.

One thing, though. You do realize that your chimeras will be the target of every Anti-tank weapon the enemy has, right? Which makes it somewhat doubtful that they'll really protect the command squads all that well.

[Cheesegear]

It's... very different from how I would play IG.

Is that positive or negative? Care to elaborate?

I was considering dropping the third Infantry (Assault) Platoon, and therefore both priests and Lord Commissar for a squadron of Leman Russes and a Vendetta.


One thing, though. You do realize that your chimeras will be the target of every Anti-tank weapon the enemy has, right?

That's the plan. :smallwink:
After deployment, the Chimeras basically run around the battlefield blocking Line of Sight or forcing bottlenecks. Very rarely will commands actually live in the Chimeras I've bought for them.

[YPU]

I’ll be going up against a lot of orks mostly it would seem so I’m going to try and build my marine force with that in mind. Any good suggestions for me? I’m mostly pondering RL’s vs heavy bolters. For the tacticals. Flamers would seem to be the no brainer here.
So what I’m going with right now,

1000pts
1st Tactical squad
full
Heavy bolter
flamer
170

2nd Tactical squad
full
Heavy bolter
Flamer
170

3rd Tactical squad
full
Missile launcher
Plasma gun
180

Dreadnought 125
Heavy flamer
Assault canon

5 Terminator 200
Assault canon 30

Captain 125
Power fist
Bolter


I had a vindicator and a 5 man scout squad last time but those four sniper shots plus the one ML doesn’t really cut it. And the vindicator simple sucked at this scale, I think I will bring it back at bigger games tough.

[Winterwind]

Is that positive or negative? Care to elaborate?Neither being FlyingScanian nor even an IG player, but I strongly suspect he is referring to the total lack of tanks and artillery to back your infantry up.

[Narazil]

I’ll be going up against a lot of orks mostly it would seem so I’m going to try and build my marine force with that in mind. Any good suggestions for me? I’m mostly pondering RL’s vs heavy bolters. For the tacticals. Flamers would seem to be the no brainer here.
So what I’m going with right now,

1000pts
1st Tactical squad
full
Heavy bolter
flamer
170

2nd Tactical squad
full
Heavy bolter
Flamer
170

3rd Tactical squad
full
Missile launcher
Plasma gun
180

Dreadnought 125
Heavy flamer
Assault canon

5 Terminator 200
Assault canon 30

Captain 125
Power fist
Bolter


I had a vindicator and a 5 man scout squad last time but those four sniper shots plus the one ML doesn’t really cut it. And the vindicator simple sucked at this scale, I think I will bring it back at bigger games tough.

It's okay, but HB's aren't really all too good. I'd replace them with ML for anti-horde and anti-vehicle goodiness.

Also, the 5 Terminators will be roughed up bad, I'd drop them and throw in another Dreadnought. Also, Drop Pods are your friend against horde armies. If they're bunched real' good, you Drop Pod right next to them with your Heavy Flamers and burn them to cinders. Same's true for multi-meltas and vehicles.
Also, why the Plasma Cannon?
I'd say drop Plas Can, drop Termies, get another Dread and get Drop Pods for both of them.
Captain's Power Fist might be a bit wasted, too. He won't stand a chance against a gazillion attacks in CC with orks, and he strikes at I1.

[Name_Here]

Since nobody has mentioned my list yet; Am I to assume that nobody has any complaints and that my list is perfect? :smallamused:

Mount up the stormtroopers and charge the enemy lines. Other wise you'll be using them to take out transports... that are already in your lines.

Also I've never been a fan of power weapons in the hands of guard officers. Sure any hits get no armor saves but let's face it against most enemies you're already going last and you're only going to wound 1 out of every 3 attacks. For just a few points more you can have them wielding power fists and being a legit risk to any enemy on the field. The sergants probably can't take them but try seeing if you can upgrade the commissars with them.

Other than that you seem to have plenty of troop and tank killing potential.

[Zorg]

Your dreadnought needs extra armour - if stunned it can still assault, and will generally tear things a new hole.

[banjo1985]

I’ll be going up against a lot of orks mostly it would seem so I’m going to try and build my marine force with that in mind. Any good suggestions for me? I’m mostly pondering RL’s vs heavy bolters. For the tacticals. Flamers would seem to be the no brainer here.
So what I’m going with right now...

I too think the Terminators could be replaced, though I'd go for a Devastator Squad. To win against Orks they need to be stopped before they can assault, which means as many heavy weapons as possible! :smallbiggrin:

[YPU]

Team of 5 termies did rather well last time, and that was without assault cannon. GW seems to advice HB over ML against orks specifically, but I suppose then I’ll switch them back to ML’s the idea with the plasma was to hang back with that unit and mostly shoot, the plasma gun is because it’s the most shooty of the special weapons, tough I suppose there might be better things to do with those points.

Another dread I could do, but it will be a multi-melta dccw one from black reach.
Drop pods I don’t have any ATM, but if they are that useful I might just buy them next time.

The power fist is mostly because I’m currently repainting my Marines to crimson fists. And really you cant have a fist marine without a power first can you now. If I can spare the points he should also have a aux grenade launcher and storm bolter.

Last time I had a craftblade on my commander and had him in a full tactical squad, cc against a nob group with warboss actually went my way.

Oh and I do everything WYSIYG on this army, just my stick here.

EDIT: Anybody know if Pedro Kantor is worth it in any case?

The one thing his chapter special rule made me thing of was sternguard in drop pod, two heavy flamers, two combi flamers and a power weapon n pistol. Great for late game objective cleaning and capturing against hordes.

[Zorg]

I vote for Pedro - he's cheap, gives Stubborn (argualbly better than Combat Tactics), makes Sternguard scoring, and is a living Chapter Banner in addition to all his wargear.

His downsides are as a Chapter Master he can't take a command squad for Feel No Pain, and he doesn't have Eternal Warrior. Keep him in a squad for some meatshields and he should be fine though.

[FlyingScanian]

Is that positive or negative? Care to elaborate?
Just that you don't have any heavy armour, instead relying on masses of infantry... while all my proposed lists contains AT LEAST 2 Russes and 3 (or 4) Chimeras. This means that I can't realy come with advice, since my playstyle is vastly different.


I was considering dropping the third Infantry (Assault) Platoon, and therefore both priests and Lord Commissar for a squadron of Leman Russes and a Vendetta.
Now, this sounds more like my idea of an army :smallwink:

[/quote]That's the plan. :smallwink:
After deployment, the Chimeras basically run around the battlefield blocking Line of Sight or forcing bottlenecks. Very rarely will commands actually live in the Chimeras I've bought for them.[/QUOTE]

But what about all those anti-tank squads that suddenly don't have any "real" targets? Crashing chimeras are still better than double-insta-deathing a guardsman (or whatever you could call it with a Lascannon vs a GEq).


The one thing his chapter special rule made me thing of was sternguard in drop pod, two heavy flamers, two combi flamers and a power weapon n pistol. Great for late game objective cleaning and capturing against hordes.

Spontaneously, no. If you take Sternguard, you do it for their special bolter ammo. And since you're already paying a premium for this, why waste it by exchanging that bolter for something else?

[YPU]

Ooh, good point there.

[Winterwind]

Crashing chimeras are still better than double-insta-deathing a guardsman (or whatever you could call it with a Lascannon vs a GEq)."vaporising"? :smalltongue:

[Copper8642]

It rips him out of time and space, preemptively taking him from existence, erasing him from history.

[Cheesegear]

Mount up the stormtroopers and charge the enemy lines. Other wise you'll be using them to take out transports... that are already in your lines.

Infiltrate/Deep Strike is my friend. :smallwink:


Also I've never been a fan of power weapons in the hands of guard officers. Sure any hits get no armor saves but let's face it against most enemies you're already going last and you're only going to wound 1 out of every 3 attacks. For just a few points more you can have them wielding power fists and being a legit risk to any enemy on the field. The sergants probably can't take them but try seeing if you can upgrade the commissars with them.

But none of my Officers have Power Weapons? I don't want my Officers anywhere near combat. :smallconfused:

None of the power weapons in my list can be upgraded to Power Fists (I was checking that as I wrote the list; Give me some credit :smallmad:) with the one exception of the Lord Commissar - who I'm not even sure I want in the first place.


Originally posted by FlyingScanian
But what about all those anti-tank squads that suddenly don't have any "real" targets? Crashing chimeras are still better than double-insta-deathing a guardsman (or whatever you could call it with a Lascannon vs a GEq).

That's the good part though. All those anti-tank weapons (which are usually 'one-shot') are wasted on Infantry. Of which I have far too many. So I can spare a few. It's not like double-insta-deathing a Guardsman is all that hard - regular plasmaguns can do it - so I'm not worried about it. That may be because I'm taking 150 men; Unlike Veteran lists who are lucky if they have 50/60. I can afford to treat my men like crap. Like any good IG General. :smallwink:

In my 1500-2000 lists, I usually have a couple of tanks. But, in this list, I don't really feel like I need them. Is that weird? :smallconfused: But, I do feel that I don't have enough Lascannons. Hopefully Storm Troopers can do what they need to do.

In the end I'm estimating between four and five thousand points will be my army.

[YPU]

Another thing, there is a pack with two assault cannons in the marine bitz shop, and I was planing on getting some termi honor pads for converting sternguard marines. Perhaps mount them in a twin assault cannon equipped razorback? It would be a cool conversion, but would it be worth its points?

[Narazil]

On Drop Pods and Sternguard:
I think it's semi-good idea to drop them in with standard Bolters and Combi-Flamers. However, they'll be sitting ducks in your opponents next Shooting/Assault phase, unless you do something real' clever-like. It's the same thing with Dreadnoughts Drop Pod'ing in, really.
But, all in all, it's a good idea. I dislike using footslogging, well, anything 'cept Scouts. Once I hit 1000+ games, everyone has transports.


Another thing, there is a pack with two assault cannons in the marine bitz shop, and I was planing on getting some termi honor pads for converting sternguard marines. Perhaps mount them in a twin assault cannon equipped razorback? It would be a cool conversion, but would it be worth its points?
We had a saying on an old Warhammer 40k board I was a member of. "The Ass Cannon in called that for a reason."
Of course, it's up to personal preference and what you feel your army lacks. I wouldn't run Sternguards (who needs to get close to enemy) in a tin-can-of-a-tank with a gun bolted on, on top.

[FlyingScanian]

That's the good part though. All those anti-tank weapons (which are usually 'one-shot') are wasted on Infantry. Of which I have far too many. So I can spare a few. It's not like double-insta-deathing a Guardsman is all that hard - regular plasmaguns can do it - so I'm not worried about it. That may be because I'm taking 150 men; Unlike Veteran lists who are lucky if they have 50/60. I can afford to treat my men like crap. Like any good IG General. :smallwink:

But that's part of my point (I know a lot about denying part of a balanced army their chance to be useful). Why would the Anti-tank weapons fire at Guardsmen when you have those chimeras running around being an annoyance. Hence, either get more armour, or remove those three targets as well.

Frankly, if I encountered this with my planned 2500, two of those chimeras would be gone after my first round of shooting, assuming they were in sight (and since their purpose is blocking LOS to other things, that is quite a possible outturn. Sure, I'm going Tau, which means that my anti-tank guns autopenetrate on the side armour, but still.

[YPU]

We had a saying on an old Warhammer 40k board I was a member of. "The Ass Cannon in called that for a reason."
Of course, it's up to personal preference and what you feel your army lacks. I wouldn't run Sternguards (who needs to get close to enemy) in a tin-can-of-a-tank with a gun bolted on, on top.

wait what? sterngaurd get special bolter ammo, why do they need to get close? the only reason i would be transporting them is since they would be a scoring unit and thus having them transported would be nice. and a tankshield that can mow down orks would be nice once there. Comi weapon still work with the special ammo, so that might be a good idea. And a assault cannon is a lot better against orks then say, a lass cannon. Plus I like the looks of it I think.

Also, sombody advised devastators. What should those be equiped with then?

[Cheesegear]

But that's part of my point (I know a lot about denying part of a balanced army their chance to be useful). Why would the Anti-tank weapons fire at Guardsmen when you have those chimeras running around being an annoyance. Hence, either get more armour, or remove those three targets as well.

Yes, but in the happy game of 40K, Vehicle Destroyed doesn't remove the model from the board. As such, any Chimera down, counts as impassable, un-see-throughable cover. As I said, they're to block LoS and force Bottlenecks. They can do that whilst being immobile/destroyed.


Frankly, if I encountered this with my planned 2500, two of those chimeras would be gone after my first round of shooting, assuming they were in sight (and since their purpose is blocking LOS to other things, that is quite a possible outcome.

Probably. Depends who gets the first turn; If I do, I can get them into a fairly decent position. If you go first, they'll just end up getting in my own way...Unless 'Vehicle Explodes!' happens, in which case they never existed in the first place. Which is points lost.

...Three Chimeras with Extra Armour comes out at 210 Points. That's only enough for one Leman Russ...Which in this size list is pointless. Maybe a squad of Armoured Sentinels? Or two Valkyries (*vomit*) instead?


Originally posted by YPU
Stuff

Sternguard are probably my favourite unit. Being the new Deathwatch and all. Vanguard Veterans are the ones that suck.

Devastators: Missile Launchers and {Plasma Cannons or Lascannons}. Any combination of those two. I've always felt that Plasma Cannons + Lascannons made the unit too expensive, and is just asking for a Ordnance template. I don't like Heavy Bolters, because, every other model in your army has bolters. Heavy Bolters are just more of the (only slightly better) same. Multi-Meltas are right out. Putting your Devos close to the enemy is just asking for trouble.

x2 MLs/x2 PCs; BLAST ATTACK. No rolls to hit is always a bonus.
x2 MLs/x2 LCs; Tank killing with some infantry-killing power.
x4 MLs. Cheap and effective.

...and make sure you have more than 5. Just do it.

[Narazil]

wait what? sterngaurd get special bolter ammo, why do they need to get close? the only reason i would be transporting them is since they would be a scoring unit and thus having them transported would be nice. and a tankshield that can mow down orks would be nice once there. Comi weapon still work with the special ammo, so that might be a good idea. And a assault cannon is a lot better against orks then say, a lass cannon. Plus I like the looks of it I think.

Also, sombody advised devastators. What should those be equiped with then?
Well, okay, you can just let the enemy come to you. Hadn't considered Pedro.
I still don't have faith in an Assault Cannon, even if it's TL. But yes, it does look cool.

I advice against Devastators. Sure they're long ranged, but they're extremely fragile unless you give them 5 additional marines, and then they're very expensive. Ideal target for, say, Deep Stricking Stormboyz, a pieplate or a Shock Attack Gun.
However, if you get them, I say Missile Launchers are the way to go. Lascannon's super expensive, and ML will rock against orks: Pie plates or Str 8 missile.

[YPU]

The only vehicle my main opponent has right now is a single truck, so tank killing is really unnecessary. So that scribes of lascannons. So sternguard + pedro will be on the to buy list. Tough sternguard will probably be spoofed up marines with vet shoulder pads.

[Narazil]

If you're only really ever going to fight Orks, a Combi-Flamer will probably repay itself every single game (almost, anyway), and you still get the sweet Special Issue Ammo.
Also, Missile Launchers can be hell for orks. It's pretty easy to cover 5-6 models with each shot. May not be a lot with 4x 30 Orks, but remember it's a 15 point marine shooting, with a no-cost upgrade.
Same for Devastators - they're cheap as pie compared to their effectiveness (Missile Launchers, that is)

[Jinura]

So I was wondering getting into 40k, two of my friends already play, one being Orks, and one being Imperial Guard. So I don't know what to play, one says I should play Space Marines becuse of economic reasons ( can get some boxed deal with Orks and Space Marines fairly cheap so we would split the prize ) and the other says nothing. So, what are the Ups and Downs of each race?

[Wraith]

So, what are the Ups and Downs of each race?

Space Marines (Loyalist Chapters) - Economically a good choice, as you can buy a few or a lot of Marine models and still make useful armies with them. Very forgiving in a tactical sense, as they are flexible and competant in all areas, but with a lot of variety to make things interesting for a 'Veteran' Player. Also very well supported by GW, so you'll get a lot of advice if you need it.
Recommendation: High

Chaos (Space Marines) - Economically very good, as even a small amount of models will cost a lot in-game terms, making your army physically small even in large-scale games. Not as flexible as Loyalist Marines as they don't have as many different types of unit, but for a beginner who wants a very tough and powerful selection of troops you'll struggle to find better. Very slightly slanted towards preferring a Close-Combat orientated army, but able to use many different tactics.
Recommendation: Mid-to-High

Chaos (Daemons) - Again, you won't need many models to make a large army. They are, however, rife with special rules and unique characters that a new player doesn't really need to know until they have a good grasp of the basics, and distinctly prefer to play to the Close-Combat side of the game, which is not an easy way to play. Very colourful and memorable, so you should have lots of fun painting and modelling them.
Recommendation: Low-Mid

Tau - A very simple army that likes to stand on the spot and shoot things, and could quite happily ignore half of the rules in the book if they had their way, This can work to a new Player's advantage - against a considerate opponent you can play entire games and get used to a lot of rules, before having to worry about introducing more - or it can be a horrific learning curve against an enemy that is... less helpful. Quite easy to model and paint, however, and one of the few armies whose Battleset doesn't need any additional units added before it can be used as a legal army.
Recommendation: Mid

Necrons - You'll need even less models than Chaos, and they are very, very tough - except for their special rules, which are even more complicated than learning the game itself, and their 'You Automatically Lose The Game' ability that can make them somewhat unsatisfying to play. Ridiculously easy to paint, but generally quite dull to play with.
Recommendation: Low

Orks - You will need lots of models to make an army, and they will all require a lot of time and attention if they're going to be painted well. Having said that, they're relatively easy to play and their special rules aren't very complicated. Once you get the Orky mindset ("Run forward and 'it dem lots!!") you'll have lots of fun, and Ork players are usually very popular due to the good sense of humour that they often need to tolerate their own army...
Recommendation: Mid

Tyranids - The opposite of Tau; very one dimensional, except that they try to fight only in Close Combat. They do have some shooting abilities, but that is the very, very hard way to victory, and as I said before a balanced army is probably better to learn the game with. You'll also need lots of models to make an army, or fewer but far more expensive ones, depending on what style of play you want to go with. They are lots of fun to see on the table, though - I personally think that Tyranids have excellent models.
Recommendation: Low

Imperial Guard - Depending on how you play them, Imperial Guard can either be very complicated or very simple. Either way, you're probably going to favour an army that lets you stand back and shoot at your opponent, either with lots of little models (tiring and repetitive to paint) or several big ones (expensive to buy). Research them more carefully to find a style that suits your interest is a good idea, but in general they're quite easy to learn and it's very simple to make them look good when painted and modeled..
Recommendation: Mid

Eldar - A very tricky army to play with. Eldar require a good knowledge not only of the game rules, but of your opponent and their army too; without it, they can be frustrating to play with.
If you want to collect an army that is very, very good at one thing though (large fleets of bikes, having lots of tanks, standing around and shooting, running into close combat, etc) and aren't taken by either Tau or Tyranids, Eldar are the next best choice. Again, you'll need to research them carefully before you commit to an army - especially since a lot of their models are still metal and not plastic, making them expensive to buy.
Recommendation: Low

Witch Hunters - Like Space Marines, but with less options and a couple of different rules. Quite nice for their theme, but again they're another all-metal army which is very expensive to buy when you could spend the same amount of money on twice as many (Loyalist) Space Marines and do more things with them in the process.
Recommendation: Low-Mid (Mid, if you really really REALLY like the idea of people using flame-throwers)

Daemon Hunters - Very expensive models, complicated special rules ad lots of abilities that no longer work as well as they should (or even at all) due to the Main Rules being changed since they were last updated, all for an army that is essentially "Imperial Guard with Space Marine Allies". Unless you fall head-over-heels in love with the models and theme (easy to do, as they're very nice) and absolutely MUST have them, they're otherwise going to be expensive and disappointing to collect.
Recommendation: Avoid

Dark Eldar - Another old army, but not as bad as people tend to make out. Another one that favours a particular playing style (bikes and fast moving vehicles using Hit And Run style attacks - can quite easily be emulated with ordinary Eldar, Tau or even Space Marines, as it happens) their models are also quite hard to get a hold of in bulk (personal experience) and those you can find probably won't come in a very wide variety of poses.
Recommendation: Low (Other armies can do what they do just as well, and much more easily. from a tactical point of view.)

I hope that's at least of some help to you. Please feel free to ask if you want more detail or for me to clarify on some points - I've been playing this game for almost 13 years now, so I may well have garbled together some stuff that I take for granted that you might want to hear more about :smallredface:

[Cheesegear]

Space Marines (Loyalist Chapters) - Economically a good choice, as you can buy a few or a lot of Marine models and still make useful armies with them. Very forgiving in a tactical sense, as they are flexible and competant in all areas, but with a lot of variety to make things interesting for a 'Veteran' Player. Also very well supported by GW, so you'll get a lot of advice if you need it.
Recommendation: High

Not to mention low-medium price in terms of real-world currency, and come at a high points cost. One of the few armies that is so. But, this also pays off for the reasons described. Marines don't need that many guys.


Chaos (Space Marines) - Economically very good, as even a small amount of models will cost a lot in-game terms, making your army physically small even in large-scale games. Not as flexible as Loyalist Marines as they don't have as many different types of unit, but for a beginner who wants a very tough and powerful selection of troops you'll struggle to find better. Very slightly slanted towards preferring a Close-Combat orientated army, but able to use many different tactics.
Recommendation: Mid-to-High

I see CSM as more like Eldar in their flexibility than their parent Space Marines. Each unit in a CSM army has a role, and does that role fairly decently, but sucks at most others. But, CSM come with the inherent awesomitude of Space Marines, with a bunch of extra toys. So, always a good choice. Especially if you're one of those people where EVUL = COOL!!1!


Chaos (Daemons) - Again, you won't need many models to make a large army. They are, however, rife with special rules and unique characters that a new player doesn't really need to must know until before they have a good grasp of the basics, and distinctly prefer to play to the Close-Combat side of the game, which is not an easy way to play. Very colourful and memorable, so you should have lots of fun painting and modelling them.
Recommendation: Low-Mid

Fixed. I don't recommend Daemons as a beginner army. Not at all. They don't play like a regular army, and it will take a long time to get your tactics right, since you are daemons, the dice hate you. If you do choose daemons, be prepared to lose a lot in the beginning. I'm telling you to be prepared, that way when you do lose - a lot - you wont be discouraged from the hobby. But...Now my Daemons win just about every game...So, it pays off in the end. :smallamused:


Tau

I have nothing to add.


Necrons - You'll need even less models than Chaos, and they are very, very tough - except for their special rules, which are even more complicated than learning the game itself, and their 'You Automatically Lose The Game' ability that can make them somewhat unsatisfying to play. Ridiculously easy to paint, but generally quite dull to play with.
Recommendation: Low

You. Automatically. Lose. The Game. No questions. If that isn't enough to put you off the Necron, then you should know that to not Auto-Lose, nearly all your models must be exactly the same. But, the Necron have a limited selection to begin with anyway. Definitely not recommended.


Orks - You will need lots of models to make an army, and they will all require a lot of time and attention if they're going to be painted well. Having said that, they're relatively easy to play and their special rules aren't very complicated. Once you get the Orky mindset ("Run forward and 'it dem lots!!") you'll have lots of fun, and Ork players are usually very popular due to the good sense of humour that they often need to tolerate their own army...
Recommendation: Mid

Orks are not exclusively a close-combat army anymore. You can make an effective shooty army. I've done it before. The 5th Ed Orks have shooting that works, even at BS 2. The only dedicated assault troops in the Ork list are Kommados, Burna Boyz and Stormboyz.

Orks work on the Rule of LOL. If you're having fun, you can't lose.


Tyranids - The opposite of Tau; very one dimensional, except that they try to fight only in Close Combat. They do have some shooting abilities, but that is the very, very hard way to victory, and as I said before a balanced army is probably better to learn the game with. You'll also need lots of models to make an army, or fewer but far more expensive ones, depending on what style of play you want to go with. They are lots of fun to see on the table, though - I personally think that Tyranids have excellent models.
Recommendation: Low

The second-most common army out there (no-one will ever knock off Space Marines from that perch). I strongly discourage you from playing 'Nids, purely because I want to see different armies. Again, you can make a shooty 'Nid army. But, it does come at the cost of close combat. Unlike Orks. A Termagant is no good in Assault, and a Hormagaunt can't shoot - at all. But an Ork still has two base attacks and T4 even when he has a shoota.

You're wasting a lot of potential if you don't give your Carnifii double Heavy Weapons (MCs can do what they like), but, Carnifii in Assault are deadly. Some people also go for the Winged Hive Tyrant (which is a b* of a conversion). I don't like it. I swear by Tyranid Warriors. Not quite as tough as Tyrants, but there's more of them.
Again, Tyranids can Assault or Shoot. Very rarely is there a list that can do both. Unlike Orks. :smallamused:

A Battleforce also works straight out of the box. But, it gives you one HQ/Elite (or Fast Attack), three units of Troops (and two of those units are rubbish 'out of the box') and an Elite/Heavy Support. Plus however many Ripper Swarms you get out of that. Probably the best Battleforce around. Or the Tau one. I can't decide.

But, all the same, I beg you; Don't play 'Nids. Please? :smallfrown:


Imperial Guard

Nothing to add.


Eldar - Eldar are the next best choice. Again, you'll need to research them carefully before you commit to an army - especially since a lot of their models are still metal and not plastic, making them expensive to buy.
Recommendation: Low

The good news is, those metal models cost a lot of points or come in small unit sizes, so you wont need too many of them. They're not quite as bad tactically as Wraith makes them out to be. Probably the easiest army to 'balance'. The only way to lose I've found with Eldar, is if your opponent is playing a super-dedicated army when you've gone for balance. Luckily, with the Troops-uppage in 5th, most armies these days should be balanced. With the exception of Tyranids and probably Tau.


The Inquisition

One thing Wraith doesn't mention, is that Witch and Daemon hunters are effectively the same army, and you can mix'n'match most units. Not only that, but can be included in other Space Marine or Imperial Guard armies. I prefer the Witch Hunters. Daemonhunters Codex is way out of whack since the reprints of IG and SMs.

But, Daemonhunters are cool. It's easy to fall head-over-heels in love with them. Yes, they're expensive. I'd say, if you really want Daemonhunters (you don't, trust me) get yourself a SM, IG or WH army and include the only good units; Grey Knight Hero, Terminators and Teleport Squads. Everything else in the army is now over-points'd and therefore underpowered.


Dark Eldar

Remember when Wraith said that Orks and Tyranids (and Tau) are good at one type of game? And then I said that that just wasn't true. Well, for Dark Eldar (and Necrons) Wraith is right; There only is one Dark Eldar list that works. And regular Eldar can do it better, and Space Marines (who are Space Marines) can do it too, so it's hard to go wrong with them.
But that may be because the Dark Eldar Codex is super old.

Post me with questions if you have them. I've been playing for 14 years (remember when Librarians could win the game by themselves? No. Seriously. That's your list; One Librarian vs. 1500 points of any army you choose) and have just about every recent Codex out (as well as some old ones), as well as 'dummy lists' to go with them.

My armies are Imperial Guard, Orks, Chaos Daemons, the Necron and the Inquisition...So if you have any specific questions about those, I'll gladly help you out.

To a new player I would recommend Chaos Space Marines, Tau or Eldar. If you have no money (or you have to cry to your Mum every time you want something), I sadly will have to recommend regular Space Marines, or two or three Tyranid Battleforces (which roughly adds up to what most decent armies cost anyway).
Two or Three Tyranid Battleforces gets you a pretty kick-a* army. One, however, does not.

Don't play Tyranids or Space Marines. I beg you. :smallfrown:

Assault on Black Reach is very nice for two Ork/Space Marine playing friends. If that's what your friend has, then you should probably go Space Marines. :smallfrown: It's not a bad deal or anything, but AoBR has some very good models that come with it. But, they're still Space Marines and common as dirt.

[FlyingScanian]

Tau - A very simple army that likes to stand on the spot and shoot things, and could quite happily ignore half of the rules in the book if they had their way, This can work to a new Player's advantage - against a considerate opponent you can play entire games and get used to a lot of rules, before having to worry about introducing more - or it can be a horrific learning curve against an enemy that is... less helpful. Quite easy to model and paint, however, and one of the few armies whose Battleset doesn't need any additional units added before it can be used as a legal army.
Recommendation: Mid

What's this I hear about Tau being static (stand still and shoot)? That's utter lunacy. Non-mobile Tau die like no other thing. What Tau excel at, is mobile firepower. IG outshoots them, Eldar outmaneuvers them, but they can counter by outmaneuver the IG and then blasting them away (kinda like how an Eldar would do it), or could at least until IG got a new codex, and they can outshoot Eldar (in theory).

Sure, Tau has some quite nice and quite static units (Broadsides, I'm looking at you), but most units are much better when made mobile. Firewarriros by themselves are so-so (until they die because someone looked angrily at them), but put them in a devilfish and they're much better (on no small part because devilfishes by themselves are great). And so on, I should probably cut my rant short here...

[YPU]

Taking into account as well the amount of extra mobile units tau have I can only confirm this. Tau jetpacks allow one to fly over cover, fire and fly back in a single turn. Tau are very much guerilla in that aspect.

[Cheesegear]

What Tau excel at, is mobile firepower. IG outshoots them, Eldar outmaneuvers them, but they can counter by outmaneuver the IG and then blasting them away (kinda like how an Eldar would do it) or could at least until IG got a new codex

A Tau army can outshoot an IG army if it's a 'Veteran' army. Which, most usually are, given the real-world currency cost it takes to field Infantry Platoons. But, IG are largely a static army and have no real Assault unit unless it's cribbed from the Daemonhunters Codex. Or you use an Inquisitor to get an an Assassin. Which, is more than it's worth.

...Tau have one or two Assault units. Use them to your advantage. IG don't really have a counter-assault strategy...Unless "Throw lots and lots of men at it." counts as a valid Assault strategy; Which it doesn't. Any Guardsman in Assault is a Guardsman not shooting.


...and they [Tau] can outshoot Eldar (in theory).

A shooty Tau army will cut a shooty Eldar army to ribbons. Eldar aren't as maneuverable as they used to be. In 3rd/4th Ed, Eldar Vehicles could move, shoot, move. Not anymore. Fire Prisms are sitting ducks. That's all Tau territory now. Eldar Jetbikes can still do it, but - from what I've seen - Jetbikes seem to be less common than they're made out to be.

Eldar's primary strength is that they're a balanced list; They have a unit for everything. The downside to Eldar, is, if you skimp out on one of those units, you'll find yourself missing something. The two exceptions are;
Howling Banshees or Striking Scorpions
Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks.
At least one option from either category is almost needed in just about any Eldar army. Although Wave Serpents decrease the need for the second. But, I still love my SHs anyway.

And Fire Warriors are no less fragile than Guardians or Guardsmen. And, since the Tau Codex is the only one I don't have, aren't Pulse Rifles totally awesome?

Tune in next time, as tomorrow I'll be discussing Imperial Guard Tanks and other armoured beasties.
(If someone wants to put their two cents in before then, feel free.)

[Wraith]

Not to mention low-medium price in terms of real-world currency, and come at a high points cost. One of the few armies that is so. But, this also pays off for the reasons described. Marines don't need that many guys.

I thought I mentioned that. Thank you for clarifying, sir :smallsmile:


Orks are not exclusively a close-combat army anymore. You can make an effective shooty army. I've done it before. The 5th Ed Orks have shooting that works, even at BS 2. The only dedicated assault troops in the Ork list are Kommados, Burna Boyz and Stormboyz.

Orks work on the Rule of LOL. If you're having fun, you can't lose.

Be honest - it is more fun when they are, though? :smallbiggrin:


The good news is, those metal models cost a lot of points or come in small unit sizes, so you wont need too many of them. They're not quite as bad tactically as Wraith makes them out to be. Probably the easiest army to 'balance'. The only way to lose I've found with Eldar, is if your opponent is playing a super-dedicated army when you've gone for balance. Luckily, with the Troops-uppage in 5th, most armies these days should be balanced. With the exception of Tyranids and probably Tau.

You're right, I am perhaps being too harsh on Eldar, but only because I care. :smallwink: They are my army of choice, and despite a few dabbles in other races they have been for over a decade, and the previous post is 50% "I want you to play Eldar well, because it makes Eldar look good" and 50% "I'm just bitter because my Codex is 5 years old and I want new shiney things" :smallbiggrin:

Having said that, the 'fashion' where I play IS to take heavily dedicated armies, usually in favour of massive long-ranged firepower. I can't speak for other areas, but right now the ability to guess what other Players have written into their Army Lists would help me win far more than a handful of lucky dice :smalltongue:


One thing Wraith doesn't mention, is that Witch and Daemon hunters are effectively the same army, and you can mix'n'match most units. Not only that, but can be included in other Space Marine or Imperial Guard armies. I prefer the Witch Hunters. Daemonhunters Codex is way out of whack since the reprints of IG and SMs.

Going by Codex they are 2 different armies, which is what I was trying to convey, but by and large you're correct. Another good clarification well made.


But, Daemonhunters are cool. It's easy to fall head-over-heels in love with them.

Quoted. For truth, no less.


I'd say, if you really want Daemonhunters (you don't, trust me) get yourself a SM, IG or WH army and include the only good units; Grey Knight Hero, Terminators and Teleport Squads. Everything else in the army is now over-points'd and therefore underpowered.

I'd actually say "Buy ordinary Space Marines and paint them to look like Daemonhunters" too. $25 for 5 models does not, for a fun army, make.


(remember when Librarians could win the game by themselves? No. Seriously. That's your list; One Librarian vs. 1500 points of any army you choose)

In that incarnation, him taking Terminator Armour was also optional as I recall. Though a lucky Vortex Grenade soetimes evened things out a bit. Good times!


What's this I hear about Tau being static (stand still and shoot)? That's utter lunacy. Non-mobile Tau die like no other thing. What Tau excel at, is mobile firepower.

To be fair, I don't play Tau, and the guy I know who does isn't very good at it. In our first game together with 2500pt armies, my MECH Eldar annihilated him to the last man in 5 turns, and in return, he killed something like 7 Wraithguard and half a Wraithlord.

All the while, telling me that his was the best way to play a Tau army. :smallconfused:

[Cheesegear]

I thought I mentioned that. Thank you for clarifying, sir :smallsmile:

It's true. You did mention it. I should learn to stop skimming posts until the parts I like. :smalltongue:


Be honest - it is more fun when [Orks are Assault-orientated], though? :smallbiggrin:

It is. Although, a Mek with a Shokk Attack Gun is riots of fun. Especially if you have two of them. But a Warboss can go toe-to-toe with a Hive Tyrant and come out on top and for about a hundred less points...So... :smallamused:


You're right, I am perhaps being too harsh on Eldar, but only because I care. :smallwink: They are my army of choice, and despite a few dabbles in other races they have been for over a decade, and the previous post is 50% "I want you to play Eldar well, because it makes Eldar look good" and 50% "I'm just bitter because my Codex is 5 years old and I want new shiney things" :smallbiggrin:

Hey, I like Eldar too. One of my least-favourite lists (of the ones I actually have, so 'least-favourite' isn't that bad). But, you made them sound bad. A 'take all comers' Eldar list can actually take all comers.


Having said that, the 'fashion' where I play IS to take heavily dedicated armies, usually in favour of massive long-ranged firepower. I can't speak for other areas, but right now the ability to guess what other Players have written into their Army Lists would help me win far more than a handful of lucky dice

Well, here in Australia, we have a thing called 'Composition Score' when we play our tournaments. Basically, if I hate your list, or I think it's cheesy, I get to mark you down. Although, this is done with mediation. Apparently we're the only country in the world that uses Comp Scores (in addition to regular Painting/Battle/etc Scores of course).

We, in our club also don't believe much in Dedicated Lists, because, you don't know who you're facing or what army they'll play. Of course, if you have one or two regular opponents, dedicated lists are fine.

EDIT: Providing money isn't an issue and you can get any unit you want, against a regular opponent (who knows what they're doing) your win:loss ratio shouldn't deviate much from 50:50.

In a Tournament 'all-out Assault' units get butchered, mostly because people haven't realised that you can't consolidate into other units anymore :smallamused:

And, in a Tournament, not every battle will be Annihilation (or, as it's more commonly known; Let's Just Kill Each Other), which means that you need Troops. And, not only that, but you need them to survive to the end of the game. Five-Man Lascannon teams just don't cut it anymore. If only because you can't even use them anymore. But, even if you could they wouldn't work.
Six-man Razorback teams are still viable though. :smallbiggrin:

...That being said, any army which has Infiltrating Troop Choices tend to do very well. If Eldar Rangers/Pathfinders had Assault ability, they'd be...Too good in fact. Also, Genestealers. That is all. :smallamused:
(I should stop saying good things about Tyranids if I don't want new players to play them)


I'd actually say "Buy ordinary Space Marines and paint them to look like Daemonhunters" too. $25 for 5 models does not, for a fun army, make.

But regular Marines aren't awesome models (just because Grey Knights are metal, doesn't make them bad sculpts), and don't come with awesome Halberd and Storm Bolter action.


In that incarnation, him taking Terminator Armour was also optional as I recall. Though a lucky Vortex Grenade sometimes evened things out a bit. Good times!

Key word there is sometimes. :smallamused: 5th Ed. Librarians have Gate of Infinity and Vortex of Doom back now (but Gate counts as moving, and Vortex is 'Heavy' :smallfrown:). So, Librarians are almost getting back to their 'funky stage' again. Pity they can't take more than two powers (i.e; Any power they wanted) like they used to - or use like, eight powers a turn. :smallwink:
EDIT: Gate + Smite works very well though.

...For people who don't know what I'm talking about; I'm not kidding. A Librarian was all you needed. These days, Librarians are just really, really good (3rd/4th Ed ones were still pretty bad though). But, still not on par with how they used to be. If you've ever played Chaos Gate, and your Librarian wasn't MVP every single map, you were doing something wrong, or choosing crap powers.

A properly tooled and well-used Herald of Tzeentch (Chaos Daemons) comes pretty close to being a 2nd Ed. Librarian.


All the while, telling me that his was the best way to play a Tau army. :smallconfused:

Then it's only fair that you stomped him into the curb. Good job.
*looks around for a High-Five smily...*

[Wraith]

Hey, I like Eldar too. One of my least-favourite lists (of the ones I a6ctually have, so 'least-favourite' isn't that bad). But, you made them sound bad. A 'take all comers' Eldar list can actually take all comers.

Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be a Take On All Comers Eldar list at, say... 2000 points? I can imagine such a thing, but then I play a very unlikely sort of army and I often lose sense of what constitutes 'sensible' in such circumstances...


*Tournament and Rules*

The Tournament rules are the same in the UK, which seems to have the same problems and concerns as Australia, howeve I was referring more to casual play.
Of my most regular opponents, I go against Necrons (with a Monolith even in 1000 points games...), Terminator-and-Havoc heavy Chaos Marines, Static Tau and a Deathwing Space Marine Army.

That's an army composed entirely of 40 Terminators and a Special Character, backed up by 3 Vindicators. Building an army that can find anything to shoot at in the first turn, and then survive beyond the 3rd, is... problematic.... :smalleek:


But regular Marines aren't awesome models (just because Grey Knights are metal, doesn't make them bad sculpts), and don't come with awesome Halberd and Storm Bolter action.

On the absolute contrary! I'm very much on the 'Metal' side of the 'Which are better, metal or plastic models' argument, and I covet my lovingly painted 1500pts Daemonhunters army (all 16 models of it....) but it's really depressing to know that it's cheaper to buy an entire box of Space Marines AND an entire box of Bretonnian Knights AND a box of Empire Halbardiers, in order to convert your own and still end up with more models for your money at the end of it.... :smallyuk:

[Eldan]

All-comers eldar would have to incorporate a variety of aspect warriors, basically. They have at least one troop that can handle pretty much any kind of enemy. At 2000 points, you should be able to get scorpions, fire dragons, dark reapers and a few others in. Add bikes for point taking and snipers for annoyance, then take a few generally useful things, like wraithlords, swooping hawks or the like.

[Winterwind]

That's an army composed entirely of 40 Terminators and a Special Character, backed up by 3 Vindicators. Building an army that can find anything to shoot at in the first turn, and then survive beyond the 3rd, is... problematic.... :smalleek:40 Terminators, Special Character and 3 Vindicators? How is that legal? Firstly it seems to lack Troop Choices, secondly it appears to have four Elite choices... :smallconfused:
Are there some special Deathwing rules I am not aware of that allow to take Terminators as Troop choices, or what?

[YPU]

I taught that cheese was removed last codex update. If not they are by far the most power full troop choice out there I would imagine.

[Erloas]

40 Terminators, Special Character and 3 Vindicators? How is that legal? Firstly it seems to lack Troop Choices, secondly it appears to have four Elite choices... :smallconfused:
Are there some special Deathwing rules I am not aware of that allow to take Terminators as Troop choices, or what?

Yeah, Deathwing can take terminators as troops. I think they have to take a special character to do it though.

I happened to loose to a list like that a week ago. Just barely though because all I had to do to draw was get a single jetbike on an objective that some banshees cleared for him... he rolled a 1 on his dangerous terrain test and went away so I had no chance to actually hold the objective.
It also didn't help that he made the first 15 or so saves on his terminators, including 2 5+ invuls from AP1 sniper shots.