The Pergerine Force-out and the Death of Team Evil (speculation, spoilers)

[eras10]

I don't know about you all, but the Xykon / Redcloak interaction is the most interesting in OOTS for me, on a personal level. The ruined, gradually empowered, geek anti-hero and the taunting evil overlord, etc. #662 was a very interesting strip, and I've been waiting for clues as to what it will spawn. But it was also frustrating, because the conflict didn't seem likely to re-emerge for a while in a big way. Sure, maybe during Gerard's Gate, but I was having a hard time coming up with a betrayal along that period that really made sense. (Other than following a total Team Evil victory, etc).

However, the introduction of a real threat to the survival of the New Goblin Nation gives a totally different turn. Before that, we were all guessing a race - OOTS races to the Gate, Team Evil races to find the phylactery, and they all meet in the middle.

But this new twist makes it quite possible that Xykon might find the phylactery at a time when the Goblin Nation is in real danger. If so, leaving with all the high-level characters could easily cost the hobgodlins the whole battle (think about the original fight w/o Redcloak and Xykon..)

What would Redcloak do? Leaving behind the hobgoblin nation to die would be like killing his brother all over again. Even for the gate.


I don't think that Redcloak will do it a second time. I just don't see it. If Xykon tries to force him to leave at a climatic moment, I could see him refusing. Not, like, a token disagreement, but really refusing. And Xykon might have a hard time forcing him - Yeah, he's epic, but Redcloak is probably >10 levels behind, and his Will Save should be his best stat and darn good.

It could really push Team Evil to a breaking point. I could see Xykon killing Redcloak right then and there, or crippling him and dragging him to Gerard's Gate, or crippling him in place and leaving him for the Elves.

It feels right that the threat to the City is going to up the pressure on Redcloak to one more level, anyway. And I think that Red's already hit just about the last level.

It would fit really well, too - X foolishly snuffs Redcloak (maybe non-fatally), goes off on his own or with Tsuikko, and gets his well-deserved fate as a set of xylophones. And everyone seems to win... until the IFCC and The Linear Guild Ambush.

Then whatever's left of Teams Good and Evil all head off to Gate Five for their own reasons.


If this chain of events is even remotely on target, Xykon's loss of control in #662 and selfish nature may have finally sealed his own doom - as we knew it would someday.

[Ozymandias9]

Your spoilered text.

I disagree. Redcloak is an evil character in service of an evil deity. The fact that the motivations there to are understandable.

He's going to see his deity's plans through. And regardless, evil, as Xykon said, "is about how far you will go to avoid admitting you were wrong."

[Larkspur]

It's worth noting that Xykon has forced Redcloak to do maybe 4 things against his will in their entire working relationship-
animating Right-Eye
asking the dead goblin about his keys, joining up with the hobgoblins, and now not regenerating his eye. And of those four things, two were symbolic gestures rather than substantive disagreements, one was relatively trivial, and one Xykon was objectively right about and Redcloak was being childish (and Xykon was in the phylactery at that point so he must have talked Redcloak around; he was physically incapable of coercing him).

Their relationship is really more of a partnership than slavery- Xykon takes advantage of his position to be a huge pain in the ass, but when Redcloak really wants something he generally humors him or pretends to humor him. (As indeed he was by lingering in Azure City).

It's not clear what would happen if they had a serious policy disagreement and neither was willing to back down, but I think the answer "Xykon would kick the crap out of Redcloak and force him to do his bidding" is less obvious than most people seem to believe. In general Xykon tends to give in to Redcloak rather than demanding subservience, and if Redcloak really pitched a fit about abandoning the hobgoblins in the midst of battle, I suspect Xykon might go "Fine, whatever, I'll go meteor swarm some elves, now can we leave?" rather than demanding they drop everything and head for Girard's Gate immediately.

[David Argall]

This is all betting on the come. And the odds are bad.

The elves are very unlikely to try to force Xykon out of Azure City. This obviously requires massive force, and they know Xykon is going to move on his own in a reasonably short time. Much easier to just let him go and then chase off the hobgoblins.
As long as his phylactery is hidded, Xykon is safe from the elves. Even if they beat him, he is coming back, just about as dangerous as ever. So the elven plan will be to infiltrate the city, and set up for a battle when he leaves. In the meantime, they will join the hunt for the phylactery. If they can find it, wonderful. But until they do, they are going to stay quiet.

[Morgan Wick]

Team Evil will not break up until after Girard's Gate - certainly Redcloak won't die, he's too close to the core of the story for SoD readers - and probably not until the doorstep of Kraagor's Gate.

[RMS Oceanic]

I have a slightly different take.

(Spoilery Predictions)
Peregrine causes more headaches for Redcloak than Haley ever did. Redcloak receives work of incoming Elven War Parties. Just as that happens, Xykon's Phylactery is retrieved, and Redcloak is dragged away from the Hobgoblins just when they needed him the most.

That would definately increase the strain on their relationship.

[eras10]

Responses!

In general Xykon tends to give in to Redcloak rather than demanding subservience,

I don't see that at all. You're confusing his general boredom and amusement in the face of minor decisions with some sort of concern for Redcloak. You're also missing a ton of other moments from SoD and elsewhere - where should we start? Forcing him to zombify his dead brother, forcing him to rejoin the quest at threat of death in the second goblin village, forcing his term of address as "Lord Xykon" - and I don't see why we should exclude Xykon's penchant for doing things he knows makes Redcloak angry, from forcing O-Chul into death fights, to deliberately killing goblins after being repeatedly told not to, etc. The lich can be wheedled into giving a stamp of approval on insignificant things and those involving new ways to fulfill his own goals. But leaving immediately after finding the phylactery is definitely *not* in that category. Did you see the fit he just threw and his explicit orders? He always forces his servants to obey his explicit orders on the rare occasions that he gives them and punishes disobedience severely.

If they can find it, wonderful. But until they do, they are going to stay quiet.

I could see it going that way. And then again, maybe not. Sure, it would require a lot of force, but who can say how much force they have available or are planning to use? There are elves so powerful that they were turned into Gods. They did call it operation "Liberation".

Besides, even if they do "stay quiet", what if Redcloak discovers them right around when they find Xykon's phylactery? Same basic conflict - protect the Goblin Nation vs. Go Chase A Gate. Possibly in a slightly less melodramatic setting.. that's all.


I have a slightly different take.

This seems kind of a lot like what I said. So.... someone agrees!

I think that the need to protect this Goblin Nation will conflict drastically with Xykon's demand to chase the next gate. I think that the danger to Gob Nation will only increase, and Redcloak is going to face difficult choices, and that the whole thing is going to blow up before Gerard's Gate.


Team Evil will not break up until after Girard's Gate - certainly Redcloak won't die, he's too close to the core of the story for SoD readers - and probably not until the doorstep of Kraagor's Gate.


Overly rigid, I think. I'm not necessarily expecting Redcloak to die, but his split with Xykon doesn't mean the end of Xykon's threat to the Gates.

[Jaltum]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, it's also possible that the arrival of the elves will make Redcloak give up on the idea of building a goblin nation through mundane means, because it proves that they'll never be allowed to exist. He's been hoping that their overwhelming military force and the support or at least apathy of some of the less Good-aligned human nations would let them build up enough of a base to force the rest of the world to treat them as equals.

But now we have elves coming from literally the other side of the planet, just to screw with them, and this is while two of the most powerful magic users in the world are guarding the city. The dream he described to Jirix was just that--a pipedream. The Plan with the Gates is the only way the goblinoids will ever get a fair shake. Etc.

Redcloak is really good at justifying things to himself by now.

[Optimystik]

I'm in favor of two theories:

1) RMS Oceanic's (Redcloak dragged away by Xykon, leaving the goblins to fend for themselves)

2) The phylactery found and Team Evil departing before the elves assault in earnest, causing Redcloak to be unaware that his fledgling nation has been brought to its knees.

Either way, Team Evil won't be defending Azure City.

[Ancalagon]

2) The phylactery found and Team Evil departing before the elves assault in earnest, causing Redcloak to be unaware that his fledgling nation has been brought to its knees.

I think it gets even better than "just" that:

Xykon does drag out Redcloak - but only after Redcloak learns there's some elven team in the city, threatening the fledgeling nation. He also knows the cloister will pass in a few weeks after Xykon left, so he can know: I only have a few weeks or my new goblin nation will be crushed between elves and Azurites (he must know the fleet is still out there, but cannot know how far they are by now).

So, Redcloak has two options: Either sacrifice the goblin city and "go for everything with Xykon" or decide Xykon is not worth the new goblin city, as he can go for "everything" anyway at a later stage, once his nation is saved. He might even come to think that an entire, healthy goblin city will spawn a decent wizard/sorcerer given a few years.

He might not decide to betray Xykon but it's at least an interesting decision he would have to make.

[factotum]

I think it gets even better than "just" that:

Xykon does drag out Redcloak - but only after Redcloak learns there's some elven team in the city, threatening the fledgeling nation. He also knows the cloister will pass in a few weeks after Xykon left, so he can know: I only have a few weeks or my new goblin nation will be crushed between elves and Azurites (he must know the fleet is still out there, but cannot know how far they are by now).

So, Redcloak has two options: Either sacrifice the goblin city and "go for everything with Xykon" or decide Xykon is not worth the new goblin city, as he can go for "everything" anyway at a later stage, once his nation is saved. He might even come to think that an entire, healthy goblin city will spawn a decent wizard/sorcerer given a few years.

He might not decide to betray Xykon but it's at least an interesting decision he would have to make.

You're missing that Redcloak has already had to make a decision like that in SoD:


Right-eye's village was a perfect example of goblinoids living and working alongside humans, and even co-operating when necessary. That, right there, was the model for Redcloak's future goblin nation. However, as soon as Xykon turned up, Redcloak caved in. The only difference now is one of scale--twenty thousand hobgoblins are a much greater nation than a few dozen villagers--but it wouldn't be at all surprising for Redcloak to do the same thing.

[Ancalagon]

You're missing that Redcloak has already had to make a decision like that in SoD:


Right-eye's village was a perfect example of goblinoids living and working alongside humans, and even co-operating when necessary. That, right there, was the model for Redcloak's future goblin nation. However, as soon as Xykon turned up, Redcloak caved in. The only difference now is one of scale--twenty thousand hobgoblins are a much greater nation than a few dozen villagers--but it wouldn't be at all surprising for Redcloak to do the same thing.


I'm not. You are missing there might be something as "character development". I'm not saying it will happen, but it'd be cool.
I even said he might decide to go on as he did before (then we'd see the same reasons and motives we saw at the end of SoD) or he might do "something new", then we'd have character development (in contrast to what we saw in SoD).

[rewinn]

2) The phylactery found and Team Evil departing before the elves assault in earnest, causing Redcloak to be unaware that his fledgling nation has been brought to its knees.

Either way, Team Evil won't be defending Azure City.
From the POV of the Elves & the Paladin's, this may be a desirable outcome, because it splits Team Evil from a chunk of its army and therefore greatly simplifies Operation Liberation.

And Xykon without the hobgoblin army (or when his escort is seriously diminished) would be reasonably vulnerable, if the Elf Nation were sufficient invested in keeping Xykon from the Gates to lend the Order a few high-level wizards on the Q.T.. Because that would remove the Order from the center of the Plot, it seems likely some Plot Point will develop to keep them busy, e.g. a grudge match with the Black Dragons?

Complicating the plot is the newly (...I think...) revealed fact that Xykon has Greater Teleport [#670] (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) so if he so chose, he could tzap back to Azure City to stop the Liberation. Add his likely denial of Redcloak's request to do this to RC's list of grievances.

Wa it just an accident that that particular spell happened to appear in 670?

[Fitzclowningham]

Call it a hunch, but I don't think Azure City is going to be liberated anytime too soon. They've just arrived at their new home far to the west, and I don't see Rich having them turn right around to go back right away. Storytelling-wise, what would the point of the whole thing have been? That V was powerful? I think 1/4 of the world's black dragons were ample demonstration of that. Either Rich has something in mind regarding the Azurites' adjusting to their new environment, or they'll be off-panel for a longish (in-comic) stretch, during which they're understood to be preparing themselves for reconquest.

Unless the whole point is another kick in the slats to V: his ultimate arcane power put the Azurites out of reach at the moment when they were needed most. I think Rich got the point about V's overreaching across already, though.

[Larkspur]

You're confusing his general boredom and amusement in the face of minor decisions with some sort of concern for Redcloak. You're also missing a ton of other moments from SoD and elsewhere - where should we start? Forcing him to zombify his dead brother, forcing him to rejoin the quest at threat of death in the second goblin village, forcing his term of address as "Lord Xykon"

Okay, five things. I included your first in the list, it's not obvious that # 2 was involuntary, and I agree you've found a number 5, but again it's purely symbolic. (And notice it's slipped completely since Xykon exploded, with nary a word of complaint from "Lord" Xykon.)

I don't think Xykon "cares" about Redcloak (is Xykon even capable of affection?), but he's oddly reluctant to assert his authority.

Case in point:


and I don't see why we should exclude Xykon's penchant for doing things he knows makes Redcloak angry, from forcing O-Chul into death fights, to deliberately killing goblins after being repeatedly told not to, etc.

Redcloak comes by to bitch him out for stupidly risking O-Chul's life. Instead of telling him, "Shut up, I'm in charge and I can do whatever I want" Xykon puts up with his nagging and makes a little kid style promise of "I promise not to do this exact bad thing again, Mom" while plotting to do something else behind Redcloak's back. Why? Redcloak has no power to compel him to do anything, and for spoilery reasons there's no danger of him walking out; if Xykon wants him to stop nagging all he has to do is threaten to meteor swarm him in the face. Instead he humors him.

You don't have to plot to do fun things behind the backs of your slaves; you just do them. That's what's great about slaves; they don't get a say. Why is Xykon treating Redcloak like his wife?


He always forces his servants to obey his explicit orders on the rare occasions that he gives them and punishes disobedience severely.

Always? We saw that happen once, if by "punish severely" you mean, "mention the assassination attempt that he'd been pretending not to know about out of some mysterious benevolence."

Every time an ally who's not disposable muscle has defied him, he talked them round rather than getting smitey. Some of the talking round involved unpleasant home truths, but I wouldn't call that "severe punishment."

He was pretty adamant about leaving immediately in the middle of his tantrum, but he was in the middle of a tantrum. We'll have to see how he feels once he calms down.


Call it a hunch, but I don't think Azure City is going to be liberated anytime too soon. They've just arrived at their new home far to the west, and I don't see Rich having them turn right around to go back right away. Storytelling-wise, what would the point of the whole thing have been?

This is a really good point. Maybe they'll help our heroes with Lord Tyrannar?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

It's worth noting that Xykon has forced Redcloak to do maybe 4 things against his will in their entire working relationship-
animating Right-Eye
asking the dead goblin about his keys, joining up with the hobgoblins, and now not regenerating his eye. And of those four things, two were symbolic gestures rather than substantive disagreements, one was relatively trivial, and one Xykon was objectively right about and Redcloak was being childish (and Xykon was in the phylactery at that point so he must have talked Redcloak around; he was physically incapable of coercing him).

Their relationship is really more of a partnership than slavery- Xykon takes advantage of his position to be a huge pain in the ass, but when Redcloak really wants something he generally humors him or pretends to humor him. (As indeed he was by lingering in Azure City).

Don't forget
Forcing Redcloak and Right-Eye to give up on pursing a peaceful family life together and instead lead their entirely civilian village to, for the vast majority, their deaths. Something which was not symbolic, trivial, or a case of Redcloak being childish.

I think you're painting their relationship as a much rosier bed of thorns than it has ever been portrayed as... Xykon has made their relative positions quite clear, on several occasions.

[veti]

I don't think Xykon "cares" about Redcloak (is Xykon even capable of affection?), but he's oddly reluctant to assert his authority.

Xykon finds Redcloak useful. He doesn't want to lose his services, and nor does he want Redcloak actively plotting to destroy him. So he avoids pushing him to open defiance, always preferring to coax, cajole or persuade, rather than bully.

About the Azurites being on the Western Continent:


This is a really good point. Maybe they'll help our heroes with Lord Tyrannar?

I very much doubt it. In "War and XPs", Rich says that the main reason for having Azure City overrun in the first place is that having all those resources available to the PCs just makes things too easy for them. So I don't see them taking an active part in the future direction of the quest. They'll give a little logistical/informational help, maybe, but their main focus is going to be on liberating their city.

As it should be. That's their friends and families back there, being oppressed. In the circumstances, wouldn't you tend to be a bit... impatient with mere distractions like some well-meaning bunch of foreigners?

[Larkspur]

Don't forget
Forcing Redcloak and Right-Eye to give up on pursing a peaceful family life together and instead lead their entirely civilian village to, for the vast majority, their deaths. Something which was not symbolic, trivial, or a case of Redcloak being childish.

I think you're painting their relationship as a much rosier bed of thorns than it has ever been portrayed as... Xykon has made their relative positions quite clear, on several occasions.

Xykon forced Right-Eye to go along. We don't know what Redcloak would have chosen to do; Right-Eye jumped in to say they wouldn't leave and then Xykon threatened him. Redcloak never even got to open his mouth. Given that he stuck with Xykon through eighteen years of no progress and Xykon had just come back with a gate location, I don't think we can conclude he wouldn't have accompanied Xykon voluntarily, so I'm not counting it. (I'm not even confident he was all that unhappy about Xykon drafting Right-Eye, to be honest. That was awfully convenient for him, and Redcloak can be pretty heartless when it comes to the Plan.)

Certainly Xykon has made their respective positions clear, but he also puts up with an awful lot of crap from Redcloak that he doesn't need to tolerate.


Xykon finds Redcloak useful. He doesn't want to lose his services, and nor does he want Redcloak actively plotting to destroy him. So he avoids pushing him to open defiance, always preferring to coax, cajole or persuade, rather than bully.

Except that for SoD spoilery reasons, Redcloak is extremely unlikely to either walk out on Xykon or to plot his destruction. Xykon can treat Redcloak as poorly as he wants to with virtually no risk of prompting a rebellion, but instead he elects to coax him. It's puzzling and I have no good explanation for it, but given that it generally seems to be true I see no reason it shouldn't extend to their departure from Azure City.


I very much doubt it. In "War and XPs", Rich says that the main reason for having Azure City overrun in the first place is that having all those resources available to the PCs just makes things too easy for them. So I don't see them taking an active part in the future direction of the quest. They'll give a little logistical/informational help, maybe, but their main focus is going to be on liberating their city.

That's a good point. Although they owe V a tremendous debt of gratitude for transporting them all to a safe location, so they ought to give the OotS whatever help is practical.

[Ancalagon]

[That's a good point. Although they owe V a tremendous debt of gratitude for transporting them all to a safe location, so they ought to give the OotS whatever help is practical.

But they have a shadow of the former ressources. They basically fight for their own survivial now, are out of their casters, their clerics, they have no more money-income, they lost Sangwaan, most of the paladins are dead...the help they can give is very, very limited.
In fact, the Azurites can be happy if they survive the next winter on their new location without starving (as I do not know if there's going to be a winter where they are now, you can see this expression as metaphor for "making if through the next two, three years)).

[Jaltum]

Except that for SoD spoilery reasons, Redcloak is extremely unlikely to either walk out on Xykon or to plot his destruction. Xykon can treat Redcloak as poorly as he wants to with virtually no risk of prompting a rebellion, but instead he elects to coax him. It's puzzling and I have no good explanation for it

Xykon articulates it himself in that same speech--he's going to allow Redcloak to pretend that none of it ever happened; that Redcloak hasn't chosen to be his slave rather than take responsibility for all that he's done. If he rubs Redcloak's face in it too much, I think he would snap, and I think Xykon knows it.

Besides, I think Xykon enjoys coaxing and wheedling and annoying him into going along with things more than he would enjoy bullying him, especially when they're trivial or silly things. Xykon plays a lot of games with himself to relieve the boredom.

[Meg]

I always thought Redcloak would eventually say "No," to Xykon in some major fashion, and Xykon would interpret that as a betrayal, and order the MItD to kill him. I see both Redcloak and V as characters who will have died permanently by the end of the strip, which saddens me, as they're my favorites.

[The Extinguisher]

It's obvious to see that the comic is going to end with Redcloak betraying Xykon. There's just too much buildup, to much tension to not be a release.

[Optimystik]

It's obvious to see that the comic is going to end with Redcloak betraying Xykon. There's just too much buildup, to much tension to not be a release.

Don't forget Chekhov's Gun (namely, the conditional charm on the MitD.)

[veti]

Everything suggests that RC and X will eventually fall out big-time (though that in itself might be enough reason for Rich to confound us all by not doing it)...

But that falling-out surely won't be over something as plot-trivial as leaving Azure City. Redcloak has always known he'd have to do that eventually - he's trying to make it as secure and stable as possible before that happens, but eventually he knows it's going to have to stand on its own.

To break up Team Evil like that, when the heroes are half an ocean away - how anti-climactic would that be? Not gonna happen.

[eras10]

I always thought Redcloak would eventually say "No," to Xykon in some major fashion, and Xykon would interpret that as a betrayal, and order the MItD to kill him.

Yes.

And a lot of people disagree that this will happen during the Departure from Azure City. I didn't think it would happen then either - until the Liberation Action in #670, which makes the odds that the Goblin Nation will be under acute and immediate threat around departure time much higher.

Ask yourself this - few people disagree that Redcloak is very likely to have another moment of open confrontation with Xykon.

When will he have more to lose than right now????
In other words, when is he likely to have some other achievement to measure against the Xykon Plan which is larger and contains the lives of more goblinoids, than what he has already done here?

He won't. Xykon and the location of Gerard's gate rules out carving a conquest path to Gerard's Gate, and our IFCC foreshadowing makes it very likely that Xykon won't even be the main threat to the world by the time of Kraggor's Gate. Gerard's Gate is likely to be a lose/lose confrontation that results in the IFCC moving in.

There's no better way to set that up than a Redcloak/Xykon split - but what on earth could cause them to split *during* a fight with OOTS, or at the gate itself? If they're already to the gate, Redcloak is definitely on Xykon's side.

I can't see anything worth defecting over better than his Goblin Nation over the former Azure City. And the Liberation makes it much more likely that the defection begins as soon as X's phylactery is found.

Now, it's possible that R goes along and then comes *back from a failure* to find his nation a smoking pit, and that's where it starts. But I don't see it.

When this scene goes down like this, I promise to reference this thread a few times. At the very least, I predict that departure for Team Evil will have some unexpected developments. But really I predict that the departure decision will, one way or another, be the direct cause of the final Red/Xykon split, and quite possibly the *immediate* cause.

[[TS] Shadow]

I think this entire thread is assuming that the re-capture of Azure City is going to be a much bigger plot point that what it already is. As said in the War & XPs commentary, having Azure City around makes it too easy for the Order to win. The most likely scenario is that Pergerine summons their troops after Xykon and Redcloak leave, and they go into a seige that will last until the end of the strip's run, when we'll see a scene of the Elves standing victoriously on Azure City (or something like that.) Having Team Evil break up over such a minor plot point would be rather poor storytelling. If Redcloak betrays Xykon, it will be AFTER he gains control of the gate for his purposes. And seeing how this process takes several months, having Redcloak NOT betray Xykon is entirely possible.

[Bibliomancer]

Shadow;6608192']I think this entire thread is assuming that the re-capture of Azure City is going to be a much bigger plot point that what it already is. As said in the War & XPs commentary, having Azure City around makes it too easy for the Order to win. The most likely scenario is that Pergerine summons their troops after Xykon and Redcloak leave, and they go into a seige that will last until the end of the strip's run, when we'll see a scene of the Elves standing victoriously on Azure City (or something like that.) Having Team Evil break up over such a minor plot point would be rather poor storytelling. If Redcloak betrays Xykon, it will be AFTER he gains control of the gate for his purposes. And seeing how this process takes several months, having Redcloak NOT betray Xykon is entirely possible.

The point is that to them , there are no minor plot points. The foundation of a goblinoid nation was important enough to Redcloak that he spent months in Azure City that could have been spent at the new gate, and if he has strong evidence that the nation is under threat he might give up on his god's far-fetched mission and settle for something more realistic.

If he understood the existence of plot, he would still do this, because his victory in the long run has a probability of around 0% given that it would result in the main characters losing everything.

He might even give the cloak to Jirix, settle down as the ruler of AC (assuming he escapes Xykon) and maybe even become an ally to the order in the final battle in exchange for the security of his nation.

And ignoring Redcloak's motivations would be even worse storytelling.

[[TS] Shadow]

The point is that to them , there are no minor plot points. The foundation of a goblinoid nation was important enough to Redcloak that he spent months in Azure City that could have been spent at the new gate, and if he has strong evidence that the nation is under threat he might give up on his god's far-fetched mission and settle for something more realistic.

If he understood the existence of plot, he would still do this, because his victory in the long run has a probability of around 0% given that it would result in the main characters losing everything.

He might even give the cloak to Jirix, settle down as the ruler of AC (assuming he escapes Xykon) and maybe even become an ally to the order in the final battle in exchange for the security of his nation.

And ignoring Redcloak's motivations would be even worse storytelling.

*facepalm* I was talking from a STORYTELLER's perspective. Besides, all of the characters in the comic know that there's a plot anyway. They've mentioned it. Several times.

You say I'm ignoring Redcloak's motivations. His motivation is at least equality for goblins, but goblin superiority is preferred. If the plan goes through, the goblins will have equality/superiority. Even if he has to give up Azure City to make the Plan happen, if it succeeds then the goblins will have (or at least have the opportunity to have) a city/country equal to or greater than Azure City. It's a strategic descicion Redcloak would definately make. Sure, some hobgoblins would die, but at least their children would live in a nice society.

[Bibliomancer]

Shadow;6608482']*facepalm* I was talking from a STORYTELLER's perspective. Besides, all of the characters in the comic know that there's a plot anyway. They've mentioned it. Several times.

You say I'm ignoring Redcloak's motivations. His motivation is at least equality for goblins, but goblin superiority is preferred. If the plan goes through, the goblins will have equality/superiority. Even if he has to give up Azure City to make the Plan happen, if it succeeds then the goblins will have (or at least have the opportunity to have) a city/country equal to or greater than Azure City. It's a strategic descicion Redcloak would definately make. Sure, some hobgoblins would die, but at least their children would live in a nice society.

Actually,

ALL living things would die, and the new race would live in a nice society. And from the storyteller's perspective, it still makes for a bad story to ignore a character's motivations. Besides, the author makes the plot and can define any way he wishes. Provided it makes sense internally and is still interesting for the reader, anything can be a plot point, especially given the long duration of the comic thus far.

[Larkspur]

Er, assuming that Team Evil eventually gain control of a gate...

SoD a confrontation between Xykon and Redcloak is inevitable. Redcloak has been planning to betray Xykon from the day he recruited him. There doesn't need to be some hobgoblin related conflict of interest to prompt a confrontation between them; the Plan itself will create their final conflict.

If they get that far, obviously. But I think there's a fair chance they will, because the only way we'll get to learn interesting things like the Dark One's true intentions and whether or not Xykon is aware of Redcloak's intent to betray him is if they actually succeed in activating a gate.

[veti]

The point is that to them , there are no minor plot points. The foundation of a goblinoid nation was important enough to Redcloak that he spent months in Azure City that could have been spent at the new gate, and if he has strong evidence that the nation is under threat he might give up on his god's far-fetched mission and settle for something more realistic.

What's "months" to Redcloak? Several years passed between the destruction of Lirian's gate and moving on to Dorukan's. He's enjoying himself as leader of a whole fledgling country, but he knows sooner or later it's going to have to get by without him. (Heck, all leaders know that; the good ones plan for it.) He knows (in 548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)) that he's not going to be able to stay here indefinitely - he's just stalling Xykon.

The hobgoblin nation of Azure City is not viable - not yet, possibly not ever (as long as there exists a structured community of dispossessed humans who regard it as "theirs"). Redcloak is trying to steer it in that direction, but it's a very long-term project - it'll take years to change the attitudes of both the hobgoblins and their neighbours to that point.

Realistically, the best he hopes for is to set it on the right path, then leave someone reasonably intelligent, like Jirix, in charge and hope that he can finish the job. That's why he gives Jirix that lecture in Politics 101.


If he understood the existence of plot, he would still do this, because his victory in the long run has a probability of around 0% given that it would result in the main characters losing everything.

I don't see how RC's victory would cost the main characters -well, anything really. They're long past the point where they need to kill goblins for XP, if they ever did.


He might even give the cloak to Jirix, settle down as the ruler of AC (assuming he escapes Xykon) and maybe even become an ally to the order in the final battle in exchange for the security of his nation.

That would be extremely out of character. Even if we assume that Redcloak can, or would, voluntarily give up the cloak, and somehow avoid Xykon's wrath... he still knows Xykon far better than Jirix does. He knows Xykon will betray him at the Gate, and (I presume) he has a plan to counter that. He also knows about the MitD, which Jirix doesn't. All in all, it's far too intricate a setup to entrust to someone else.

He's been grooming Jirix to lead the hobgoblins, not to replace him as Xykon's henchman.

[eras10]

What's "months" to Redcloak? Several years passed between the destruction of Lirian's gate and moving on to Dorukan's. He's enjoying himself as leader of a whole fledgling country, but he knows sooner or later it's going to have to get by without him. (Heck, all leaders know that; the good ones plan for it.) He knows (in 548) that he's not going to be able to stay here indefinitely - he's just stalling Xykon.

In general, I agree with this - but only to a point. Yeah, in general, Redcloak was psychologically prepared to hand over Goblin City and move on (although ONLY when he was *forced* to, which is why he delayed Xykon in the first place). But there's a significant difference between leaving the city behind with a generally uncertain future, and leaving it behind in the middle of a serious fight for its survival.

The elves and so on may lay low until Xykon and Redcloak leave, but I doubt it. If they wanted to truly take the lowest-risk approach, they wouldn't even ENTER until X & R were gone. They may be emissaries for serious Elf BadA**es, or even entire armies. The operation is named "Liberation", not "scouting" or "trouble-making".

Nevertheless, they might lay low. Rich might make the moment of truth immediately after a failure at Gerard's Gate, not before. But the re-liberation of Azure City is going to be what breaks up Red and Bony Boy.
And I think that won't be what happens. If Xykon and Redcloak lose at Gerard - and they're going to - and then return to find the Goblin Nation a smoking pit, Redcloak won't have anything left to defend. He might be bitter, but he might as well head for Gate 5 with Xykon at that point.

[Bibliomancer]

I don't see how RC's victory would cost the main characters -well, anything really. They're long past the point where they need to kill goblins for XP, if they ever did.

If RC wins, then he will threaten to unmake the universe unless the gods give goblinoids a fair place in the world. This will materially affect the Order, given that they would be forced to live in a world with goblinoids ascendant. It wouldn't be pleasant to be humans, given that they would have to move out of entire continents to make space for the new goblinoid nations. Thus, not much of a happy ending.

[Larkspur]

If RC wins, then he will threaten to unmake the universe unless the gods give goblinoids a fair place in the world. This will materially affect the Order, given that they would be forced to live in a world with goblinoids ascendant. It wouldn't be pleasant to be humans, given that they would have to move out of entire continents to make space for the new goblinoid nations. Thus, not much of a happy ending.

It's not like they'll be forced to move. I mean, they're itinerant anyway. They don't have houses to be forced out of. The impact of massive ethnic cleansing on the OotS specifically would actually be pretty minimal.

But somehow I don't foresee that as the direction this comic is moving.