Am I the only one getting bored with Ochul?

[Mr. Scaly]

I don't know, I started off liking him well enough...I was impressed with his stoic attitude and his ability to out wrestle sharks swimming in acid. But by now he feels like he's lived longer than he should have. Plus he seems too invincible. He can get blasted by spells all day long, convince villains of the virtues of being yourself, wrestle with liches and high leveled clerics and still has the intelligence to deduce all kinds of information about the enemy even through the pain? That stretches my disbelief way past the breaking point. To me the guy belongs in another comic with the likes of Solid Snake, James Bond, and other super tough heroes who always win even when they lose.

Someone tell me I'm not alone! :smallsmile:

[Dark Faun]

I do occasionally get such a feeling, but I guess a NPC tougher than the PCs is part of a subversion.

[Jagos]

I don't know, I started off liking him well enough...I was impressed with his stoic attitude and his ability to out wrestle sharks swimming in acid. But by now he feels like he's lived longer than he should have. Plus he seems too invincible. He can get blasted by spells all day long, convince villains of the virtues of being yourself, wrestle with liches and high leveled clerics and still has the intelligence to deduce all kinds of information about the enemy even through the pain? That stretches my disbelief way past the breaking point. To me the guy belongs in another comic with the likes of Solid Snake, James Bond, and other super tough heroes who always win even when they lose.

Someone tell me I'm not alone! :smallsmile:

I unno. After about 6 months of being bombarded with spells, I'd probably be a walking dictionary on the effects, their range, and the effectiveness of XYZ as well.

I see your point of him being pretty resilient. Let's be glad that he's soon going to join Hinjo in taking back the city (eventually) rather than with the OotS as their walking sponge.

[Cerrakoth]

I feel either because or in-spite of the forums love for O-chul aka Neo, he will die. In a sacrifice at the end, I mean the guys a paladin who does everything you outlined in the first post, he's got his head in the block already, Richs just gotta swing the axe

[Kish]

Someone tell me I'm not alone! :smallsmile:
Okay. You're not alone.

...I'm not sure exactly who agrees with you, but I can flat guarantee you some people on this here forum do.

[Mr. Scaly]

I do occasionally get such a feeling, but I guess a NPC tougher than the PCs is part of a subversion.

I suppose it's the fact that such a following has risen up around him. Which itself wouldn't bother me either, except Rich seems to be writing the memes into the comic.

Edit: Jagos, true that. Maybe Ochul needs to be taken in doses instead of huge amounts.

[NerfTW]

Plus he seems too invincible. He can get blasted by spells all day long, convince villains of the virtues of being yourself, wrestle with liches and high leveled clerics and still has the intelligence to deduce all kinds of information about the enemy even through the pain? That stretches my disbelief way past the breaking point.


He has a constitution in the mid 20's, as stated in the commentary for War and XP's. He is not a low level mook by any stretch.

Xykon didn't want him to die, so he was always pulling punches. Redcloak was never shown to attack him, so I don't know what you're talking about there.

And he didn't really "deduce" the information. He simple kept a list of what spells he was being hit with. Considering Xykon tends to only need one or two to take him down, that's not unbelievable that he would remember them long enough to write them down somewhere.

I think you're assigning some mythical properties to a character who is simply someone with a massive constitution score and very low other stats.

[Gorgondantess]

The answer to the thread: yes. Yes, you are.

[accountingninja]

I love him. I thought for sure he was toast, slated for a "noble sacrifice". In fact, I'm pleasantly surprised he didn't die!

[Spoomeister]

Hardly boring. If anything - to go meta for a second - assuming Ochul is a PC, the player playing Ochul seems to be the best player in the whole game.

[Mr. Scaly]

He has a constitution in the mid 20's, as stated in the commentary for War and XP's. He is not a low level mook by any stretch.

Of course not. That's sort of the problem...I just think he's too powerful.


Xykon didn't want him to die, so he was always pulling punches. Redcloak was never shown to attack him, so I don't know what you're talking about there.

Xykon was regularly hurting him down to the negative hitpoints. There's no reason to think he wasn't blasting Ochul prior to V's arrival so odds are he was at lower than usual hitpoints. And then Redcloak his him with a Disintegrate.


And he didn't really "deduce" the information. He simple kept a list of what spells he was being hit with. Considering Xykon tends to only need one or two to take him down, that's not unbelievable that he would remember them long enough to write them down somewhere.

I know casters tend to shout the names of the spells they use in Stickverse, but I'm pretty sure that you need Knowledge (arcane) or something like that to identify a spell being used, which would be a cross class skill for Ochul at best.


I think you're assigning some mythical properties to a character who is simply someone with a massive constitution score and very low other stats.

Maybe so. But the fact remains that he's proven more effective at pretty much everything so far than the main characters. The only thing he's failed at that I recall was keeping Xykon from the gate.

[Sanguine]

^ It is spellcraft to identify spells.

[Tharivol123]

It is my opinion that the way O Chul deduced the spell list is by telling the scholar what Xykon's spells did and the scholar gave him the titles for the ones he could make a spellcraft on. It would explain the unknowns on the list and not require us to believe O Chul has a caster level spellcraft skill.

For example, a fighter may not be able to recognize fireball but he can describe what happened to the party wizard who does.

[Mastikator]

I too find it a bit dubious that a paladin would have ranks in spellcraft and could identify spells. (ops, did people forget that you can't just look at a spell and know what it is?)
Don't they have more pressing skills that they need ranks in? Like diplomacy, knowledge (noble), knowledge (religion), ride, handle animal, maybe heal and sense motive?

Edit- ninjad on the spellcraft. Nuts.

[Mr. Scaly]

Sanguine, ah thank you. Spellcraft it is.

Tharivol123, what scholar?

[Tar Palantir]

It was mentioned when Ochul went to consult with Hinjo after he returned to the island with V.

EDIT: Panel 8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html)

[Cracklord]

The answer to the thread: yes. Yes, you are.

And you should drop to your knees and question the meaningless of your own existence.

[Mugen Nightgale]

Yes he is very resistant but you have to remember that Xyckon was sparing him on a daily bases. They beat him up just enough so he would drop 0 hit points for months. That's gotta be enough for him to learn one or two things about the environment around him. I think of Ochul as the very good and lucky player. A guy who knows the importance of surviving.

[Zevox]

I was never even particularly impressed with him. He's just an atypical Paladin. Okay, an atypical Paladin with a lot of hp - not a big difference. Can't understand why he spawned the weird fandom he did, but at least they're entertaining to watch every now and then.

Zevox

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

Why would O-Chul need Spellcraft ranks to identify the spells? Apparently in the OotSverse, the verbal components are the spells' names. Therefore, O-Chul would at least know the the name of any non-silent spell Xykon used.

[accountingninja]

I too find it a bit dubious that a paladin would have ranks in spellcraft and could identify spells. (ops, did people forget that you can't just look at a spell and know what it is?)
Don't they have more pressing skills that they need ranks in? Like diplomacy, knowledge (noble), knowledge (religion), ride, handle animal, maybe heal and sense motive?

Edit- ninjad on the spellcraft. Nuts.


(I'm a total rules n00b, so bear with me, but you can't tell a spell by looking at it?, however, Xykon usually speaks the spell when he casts it. At least he's done so as far as I've seen.)

Edit: Ha! Ninja'd by CapedLuigiYoshi

[Thanatosia]

Arguing over his spellcraft ranks to identify Xykon's spells is ridiculous. In OOTS universe, characters clearly have to yell out a spell's name to use it. This is not merely a convenience for the sake of the reader, but on numerous occaisons can be shown as an actual spellcasting mechanic in OOTSverse:


How many Spellcraft Ranks does Haley have? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html)
Enough to identify non-core vs core book spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)
Wait, what? Even Chimeras can identify special-crafted spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but I think the point is easily enough made..... the shoutout of the spellname is readily identifiable by anyone.

[73 Bits of Lint]

I've been bored with O'Chul for a while, and his fan club is entirely too obnoxious. It's worse now, because each time I've seen him in the last couple strips I get a momentary feeling of hope that maybe, just maybe, this is finally the last appearance of that walking cliche.
Then he's back again.
He was funny at first, when he was Lord Shojo's straight man, but I'd rather the MitD had just eaten him at first sight.

[[TS] Shadow]

I put O-Chul in the vauge realm of "decent." He's a good character, with well laid out morals and is easy to understand. That said, he's also rather boring and hasn't changed much sense we've seen him. Despite some cool scenes, I can't really connect with him, making me unable to connect with the "ochul is the greatest thing sense sliced bread" crowd.

[Thanatosia]

I can see being annoyed by the the O-chul = Chuck Norris threads, but I dont think you can realy blame those on Rich or the O-chul character. I dont think i've seen O-chul do anything super-powerful, he's just a paladin with a good wisdom score and a realy high con score. Thats it.

Personaly, I adore O-chul, and admire the character.... but I do find the chuck norris type jokes on as tiresome as they got in their original form.

[EmperorSarda]

Just reiterating that O'Chule talked with a scribe who would be able to know what level each of the spells were and some feats.

Also, O'Chul isn't invincible. He has been continually knocked into the negatives and allowed to survive because he entertains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Xykon with what he puts him through. They were going soft on him.

And if you note in the last battle, he was knocked unconscious, and without the aide of the MiTD teleporting him, he would have been BBQ O'Chul.


As far as his fanbase, O'chul is a cool guy who has survived 6 months of horrors that the Lich has put him through. If that isn't cool and awesome, I don't know what is.

[BlueWizard]

I like O-Chul.

So many of the blue guard have been killed, its nice to have a reminder of the old blue guard. :smallcool:

[Turkish Delight]

I'm not, but it comes as no shock to find some people are. It's impossible to know how much OChul's status as a memetic badass feed his accomplishments in the strip and how much the reverse is true, but it seems like every time OChul shows up these days he is shown doing or saying something that makes him all the cooler. Hype backlash is an ugly thing.

[Ridureyu]

Honestly, I thought that he served as a nice refresher from the barrage of "Heroes fail" we'd been getting for a while.

[Querzis]

maybe, just maybe, this is finally the last appearance of that walking cliche.

...Ok the OP was already pretty weird but at least I understood what he meant. But you? I honestly dont see anything about O-chul that can even remotely be considered cliche.

Like I say in my sig, O-chul is THE paladin. Hes not how anyone ever played a paladin. Hes not how I ever saw paladin being portrayed. Hes what paladins should be. Totally selfless. Incredibly respectfull. Very wise without being necessarily intelligent. Ready to put his life on the line for stangers. Full of mercy and forgiveness. All that while still being very strong.

As for the OP, O-chul is tough yes. Whats your point? Its not like we havent saw people survive worse. If you want someone thats way too much invincible, go see Xykon. A paladin of O-chul level with Constitution around 20 should be able to survive everything O-chul took.

And like many other people already said: Xykon freaking shout his spells out loud, O-chul doesnt even need to know what it does.

[Skorj]

No one can get bored with O-Chul, O-Chul gets ... OK, I got nuthin. :smallfrown:

[Jagos]

I look at O-Chul as thus:

He's the anti-Miko. Yes, Hinjo plays a decent foil to Miko's tactics but we have a paladin played not as a stereotype but as someone that is needed for a greater cause. Having O-Chul survive all of those horrors of Xykon's, humiliating Redcloak and weakening him for the OotS' next battle with Team Evil, on top of putting doubt into the Monster are all things the Order couldn't necessarily do on their own.

He accomplished what the main story wouldn't be able to. That even helps a lot more when you consider the fact that the slaves inside could possibly help in the revolt that will commence.

It's not that I "hate" him or anything. He did a swell job in keeping Team Evil occupied until further notice.

[Turkish Delight]

He's the anti-Miko.

Exactly. It's been said before, I'm sure, but the contrast is between how to play a typical Paladin and how not to play a typical Paladin. Ochul is the embodiment of the former, Miko the embodiment of the latter.

[Red XIV]

Of course not. That's sort of the problem...I just think he's too powerful.
He's resilient. That's his thing. It's not like it makes him a twinked-out character with massive stats in every category and and perfectly optimized feats.


It's worse now, because each time I've seen him in the last couple strips I get a momentary feeling of hope that maybe, just maybe, this is finally the last appearance of that walking cliche.
How is a character whose primary purpose is to be a total subversion of the normal "Lawful Stupid" way of playing a paladin a cliche? And like Roy, he also subverts the typical "melee combatants are stupid meatheads" cliche.

Maybe if you said "walking meme", it would've made sense...

[Roderick_BR]

Overpowered? Let's see... Massive resistance against attacks/spells, managed to deal little to none meaningful damage to any enemy, and sucedeed in fleeing.
He was as useful as a monk. Anyone here that thinks monks are overpowered? I thought so.

Thing is, as it was mentioned, the villains didn't hit him for full force (the desintegrate, paralizy, and energy drain were the strongest thus far, and used only once each) so he managed to survive this long.
Then, there's the circunstances. O-Chul had absolutely no chance of winning a direct combat, so he gathered his intel, fled, and met with his lord and his army.
In a "typical" D&D game, the main characters (players) would have tried to take on the army by themselves. O-Chul was not being a D&D character, he was being a character in a story, that knew he needed help, so he ran away thanks to V's arrival.

It is a good advantage in the general scope, but hardly "overpowered".

[yanmaodao]

Arguing over his spellcraft ranks to identify Xykon's spells is ridiculous. In OOTS universe, characters clearly have to yell out a spell's name to use it. This is not merely a convenience for the sake of the reader, but on numerous occaisons can be shown as an actual spellcasting mechanic in OOTSverse:


How many Spellcraft Ranks does Haley have? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html)
Enough to identify non-core vs core book spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)
Wait, what? Even Chimeras can identify special-crafted spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html)

I'm sure I could come up with more examples, but I think the point is easily enough made..... the shoutout of the spellname is readily identifiable by anyone.

Wow, good catch.

[David Argall]

I can see being annoyed by the the O-chul = Chuck Norris threads, but I dont think you can realy blame those on Rich or the O-chul character. I dont think i've seen O-chul do anything super-powerful, he's just a paladin with a good wisdom score and a realy high con score. Thats it.
See o-Chul and the shark. See O-Chul beat up Redcloak. See O-Chul steal the phylactery from Xykon and rescue V.... See O-Chul... His fans around her may have overdone things, but he has been way more than a paladin with good wisdom and very high con. He's been borderline Mary Sue and has been getting worse.

From story and plot views, he has been close to completely worthless. He adds little or nothing to the story and can be dropped without loss.

[factotum]

I disagree there, David. If O-Chul really HAD been a Mary Sue he would have destroyed the phylactery no problem, and he wouldn't have needed rescuing by V either. Fact is, O-Chul has failed to do several things he set out to do (going right back to destroying Soon's Gate before Xykon could get hold of it) and is therefore not a Mary Sue by any means.

[kpenguin]

I think all of this is building up to a Worf Effect type event where the badassery of another character is proven by taking down O-Chul.

[Zeful]

Sanguine, ah thank you. Spellcraft it is.

Tharivol123, what scholar?

The one O-chul requests here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html), the eight panel. He specifically asked for the "Most learned one", who would naturally have high ranks in knowledge skills and very likely spellcraft, coupled with Haley and Celia's addition, would be enough to get a large majority of that information.

[Oberon]

Basically, I enjoyed O'chul while he lasted, but he's served his purpose plot-wise and now its time for him to take his leave. Which it appears he is doing. So I think it's coming together really well.

I'm really excited now that the Order is back together. It seems the story's back on track! (Although I hope the "in story" year lasts us a while... I'ma miss Belkar a whole lot. :smallfrown:)

[BlueWizard]

Just putting more positive vibes out there for one of the few surviving blue guard. Go O-Chul! Survive!!! :smallcool:

[Iranon]

I've been a little amused with the O-Chul fanclubbery for a while.

He's a very admirable peson; a paladin with the gravity and dignity expected but without a stick up his nether regions.

At the same time, he is not a very interesting character to follow. He seems to have no personal issues he struggles to overcome. There seems to be nothing in the way of unfulfilled ambition.
He's simply too mature (not age-wise, but as opposed to 'still having some way to go as a well-rounded person') to make a good protagonist.

[BlueWizard]

Not in the fanclub, just sticking up for a decent guy. :smallbiggrin:

[Querzis]

I've been a little amused with the O-Chul fanclubbery for a while.

He's a very admirable peson; a paladin with the gravity and dignity expected but without a stick up his nether regions.

At the same time, he is not a very interesting character to follow. He seems to have no personal issues he struggles to overcome. There seems to be nothing in the way of unfulfilled ambition.
He's simply too mature (not age-wise, but as opposed to 'still having some way to go as a well-rounded person') to make a good protagonist.

Oh yeah I totally agree, people who are too wise dont make good protagonist because they got nothing to learn. But nobody is asking for a good protagonist. Just for an awesome paladin and a great badass and he most definitly is both.

[BlueWizard]

Oh yeah I totally agree, people who are too wise dont make good protagonist because they got nothing to learn. But nobody is asking for a good protagonist. Just for an awesome paladin and a great badass and he most definitly is both.

This is true, mostly because all stories/characters/plot need conflict, and a protagonist that does everything perfect isn't as interesting to follow. I do like O-chul as a support NPC. :smallcool:

[sam79]

I've been a little amused with the O-Chul fanclubbery for a while.

He's a very admirable peson; a paladin with the gravity and dignity expected but without a stick up his nether regions.

At the same time, he is not a very interesting character to follow. He seems to have no personal issues he struggles to overcome. There seems to be nothing in the way of unfulfilled ambition.
He's simply too mature (not age-wise, but as opposed to 'still having some way to go as a well-rounded person') to make a good protagonist.

This. He's done some awesome things and had some great lines, but probably his moment in the spotlight is over. I'm not bored of him, but now he is not being tortured daily, there isn't much reason to keep him in the strip as a major character. His lines to Roy in the second frame of the second strip at 670 look like he is bowing out to me. And boy, has he earned a bit of R+R.

[hamishspence]

yes- and while he had a little time "in the limelight" that may be party, to help further the plot- to be the guy that made it possible for V to be rescued (by winning over the Monster partly) and to provide the info the party need to effectively counter Xykon.

[OITS]

Hardly boring. If anything - to go meta for a second - assuming Ochul is a PC, the player playing Ochul seems to be the best player in the whole game.

I'd say, O-Chul is a statement made by the DM. First of all he wants to show his players who hate Paladins for being like Miko, that there are others, who are played well and therefore more efficiently.
Secondly, he wants to give them an example what a character could do if he just concentrates on what is important (and if he sticks to his role). Of course, they all do good RP, but they all fail (Roy dies, V doesn't kill Xykon and becomes more evil).

[sam79]

To answer OP's question; the vibrancy of the O-Chul Facts thread suggests that a significant number of forum users just can't get enough of our battle-scarred bald-headed blue-bearded paladin.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The reaction of the forum is beginning to bore me. Not O-Chul himself, but the I LURVE OCHUL threads - and also the "I'm tired of O-Chul" threads. It's just a comic, and a relatively slow one at that. Get your mind onto other things so you don't wear your enthusiasm down fretting over what forumites think and the next plot twist.

[tomandtish]

^ It is spellcraft to identify spells.

Many spells are presumably identifiable once cast: flight, invisibility (if you see them vanish), fireball, etc. In addition, spellcraft actually can allow you to identify WHILE they are being cast. "Hmmm, I recognize that. He's casting lightning bolt. Get ready to duck".

It is certainly reasonable that O'chul is able to identify spells from their effect on him, and not beyond the realm of possibility that he has ranks in spellcraft (it may be cross class, but it's damn useful).

As for the other issues:

I see O'chul as a twist on the mentor figure. He's the wise old expert who for most of the movie is better than the heroes at everything (Obi Wan, Dumbledore, etc.). Given that, he's toast before the end.

[AstralFire]

The reaction of the forum is beginning to bore me. Not O-Chul himself, but the I LURVE OCHUL threads - and also the "I'm tired of O-Chul" threads. It's just a comic, and a relatively slow one at that. Get your mind onto other things so you don't wear your enthusiasm down fretting over what forumites think and the next plot twist.

^ This.

I like O-Chul, the fans I could do without.

[NerfTW]

Of course not. That's sort of the problem...I just think he's too powerful.

Xykon was regularly hurting him down to the negative hitpoints. There's no reason to think he wasn't blasting Ochul prior to V's arrival so odds are he was at lower than usual hitpoints. And then Redcloak his him with a Disintegrate.


We don't have any reason to think Xykon was blasting him prior to his escape. If anything, he was in the cage and therefore had been healed up by Red Cloak. (Which we saw him do already) And we've seen several characters, such as Hinjo, survive disintegrate spells before.

I don't see how having one obscenely high stat at the expense of all others makes him a cliche, and not Varsuvius, who has an int in the mid 20's.

We haven't actually seen O'chul fight anyone. He got one hit on Red Cloak and that's it. For all we know, his strength is in the low teens, along with a 10 dexterity. From what we've seen, O'chul's only "ability" is the ability to soak up lots of damage. We haven't seen him actually be effective at dealing damage in any capacity beyond stabbing a cleric in the eye.

[Zanaril]

Many spells are presumably identifiable once cast: flight, invisibility (if you see them vanish), fireball, etc. In addition, spellcraft actually can allow you to identify WHILE they are being cast. "Hmmm, I recognize that. He's casting lightning bolt. Get ready to duck".

Also, he's been talking to a scribe for the past few hours. Even if he didn't know what the spells he saw cast were (Although when someone yells out "Fireball" etc, you'd think it would be obvious) he can just describe them and someone else will know. I doubt he knew what level they all were.

[Jackson]

There are a very good reasons to believe Xykon wasn't blasting him prior to V's arrival: he was in his cage, Xykon, Redcloak, and Jirix were all engaged in something else on the other side of the room, there was no visible damage on him, he was playing Go with the MiTD, etc. The only reason to believe that Xykon was blasting him is to back up your theory that his ability to take damage is literally impossible, rather than massively unlikely. But then you have to ignore all of the evidence to the contrary, and while that seems to be the hallmark of a pet theory, it makes said pet theory very difficult to communicate, for obvious reasons.

I'm not really tired of O'Chul, but I don't see him having much further purpose in the comic. I'm honestly still floored that he didn't get killed; I was certain he was going to the first time MiTD yelled 'O'Chul' rather than 'Mr. Stiffly.' I can see why he would seem boring, since he's preternaturally competent for this comic, but this has also been one of the few times we've seen anybody work single-mindedly and efficiently towards a particular goal. Usually, on the rare occasions this does happen, the results are about the same: a near-victory. Everyone seems to forget that, were it not for the MiTD, O'Chul would be all sorts of dead right now.

[Bibliomancer]

I'm not really tired of O'Chul, but I don't see him having much further purpose in the comic. I'm honestly still floored that he didn't get killed; I was certain he was going to the first time MiTD yelled 'O'Chul' rather than 'Mr. Stiffly.' I can see why he would seem boring, since he's preternaturally competent for this comic, but this has also been one of the few times we've seen anybody work single-mindedly and efficiently towards a particular goal. Usually, on the rare occasions this does happen, the results are about the same: a near-victory. Everyone seems to forget that, were it not for the MiTD, O'Chul would be all sorts of dead right now.

Exactly. I enjoyed watching O'chul, and he was needed as a mentor character, especially for the MitD (if it is as powerful as has been implied, it could be crucial to saving the world later). At this point, he should start working on liberating Azure City while the Order tries to head off Xykon at the next gate, although he might not be needed there either, now that the elves have arrived. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

On a side note, do you think the Order will be able to borrow a few scrolls of teleport from the elven war council?

[TerrickTerran]

I am definitely bored with the character and even more so with the "worship" of him on the boards. I still hope the Giant offs him at some point.

[Mr. Pin]

Scaly: you are. ignore the people saying you aren't; they're just reflections of your own fractured ego.

O-chul is awesome, and no matter how many people say it, it is still true. the affirmation of a character's awesomeness does not delete it. just because you're annoyed at the people who worship him, doesn't mean he's any less awesome.

[Ridureyu]

Yeah, he's probably bowing out now. What amazes me are all the people saying, "I HATE O-Chul! I wish he would die! Why can't something kill him painfully? He deserves it!"

I mean... why? Did a bearded man run over your dog?

[Deliverance]

Like I say in my sig, O-chul is THE paladin. Hes not how anyone ever played a paladin. Hes not how I ever saw paladin being portrayed. Hes what paladins should be. Totally selfless. Incredibly respectfull. Very wise without being necessarily intelligent. Ready to put his life on the line for stangers. Full of mercy and forgiveness. All that while still being very strong.

Within the limitations of the comic format, he is definitely one of the better paladin characters I have seen portrayed, but he just cannot match up to a character with more characterization like Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion from the series "The Deed of Paksenarrion".

[Mr. Scaly]

We don't have any reason to think Xykon was blasting him prior to his escape. If anything, he was in the cage and therefore had been healed up by Red Cloak. (Which we saw him do already) And we've seen several characters, such as Hinjo, survive disintegrate spells before.

I don't see how having one obscenely high stat at the expense of all others makes him a cliche, and not Varsuvius, who has an int in the mid 20's.


I'm pretty I never called him a cliche, but there's no reason to think that he wasn't being tortured earlier that day either, or any reason to think Redcloak would have healed him to full hitpoints either instead of to the point of being able to function. Redcloak had it down to a schedule after all and since that day started out normal for them Ochul would have gone through his morning torturing just as always.

On a side note, you said you read War and XPs, right? Did it say anything else about his character sheet? I'm curious.

Mr. Pin, I have no idea whether you're being serious, but I don't hate Ochul and I don't hate his fanbase. He annoys me and I think he should have passed out of the comic by now since his role is done. With any luck he'll do just that.

[David Argall]

I disagree there, David. If O-Chul really HAD been a Mary Sue he would have...
Which is why I said "borderline".


Fact is, O-Chul has failed to do several things he set out to do and is therefore not a Mary Sue by any means.
May Sues come in many different grades, and while eternal automatic success is a sign of the worst ones, lack of that does not clear the suspect.

Here, we have statements like "assuming Ochul is a PC, the player playing Ochul seems to be the best player in the whole game.", which is simply a recognition that O-Chul is overdoing it.



I don't see how having one obscenely high stat at the expense of all others makes him a cliche,
Because it doesn't seem to be at the expense of the others for starters.

We haven't actually seen O'chul fight anyone. He got one hit on Red Cloak and that's it.[/QUOTE]
Which is the only hit we have seen do permanent damage to a surviving character, and which is done with an improvised weapon, and knocks Redcloak down. He also follows it up with an amazingly successful sunder of the holy symbol.
And of course, we are told that he has survived dozens of fights while under Xykon's "care".
For someone who was no better than the third best paladin, he has done fantastic.

[FlawedParadigm]

For someone who was no better than the third best paladin, he has done fantastic.

Being fair, #1 and #2 survived their own fair shares of concerted efforts to kill them as well. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they're the longest-surviving named NPCs outside of Team Evil, the lawyers, and (some) of the Linear Guild. I'm almost certain I'm overlooking someone here, but either way, they'd still be pretty high on the list for survival rate thus far.

[derfenrirwolv]

too find it a bit dubious that a paladin would have ranks in spellcraft and could identify spells. (ops, did people forget that you can't just look at a spell and know what it is?)

This is probably why o chul got hinjos most learned scribe. O chul was describing the effects, and the scribe was figuring out the spell's name , level, and how many there should be from the descriptions

" Ok, so when you were hanging over the pit with the rabid dire badgers, what spell did he use to cut the rope?"

"Well, he said "Fireball" and then a great ball of fire appeared over the rope..."

"That would be fireball sir."

"... you went to grad school for this?"

[EyethatBinds]

It might just be another symptom of Rich's writing taking a dive. Ever since the end of the battle for Azure city, we've seen the quality and clarity of his writing drop in favor of a more epic story, which basically amounts to wall of text wordiness with little purpose.

Did anyone catch the joke in the last comic? I think it was the initiative gag, which was already done [and better] in #16 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html). Now we get the fun of watching NPCs that clearly need a two to three comic description of what they are doing, how they got there, and what their motivations are. Then we might be able to go back to the story, which may have forgotten that it was supposed to be funny.

I know that most are going to tell me that I shouldn't read if I'm not a fan, shouldn't complain about a free comic, or that I'm completely wrong in my opinion. But I think if Rich really needs to devote so much time into making the book for publishing he should do that. I'd rather have a break than poor writing.

[Llama231]

This is probably why o chul got hinjos most learned scribe. O chul was describing the effects, and the scribe was figuring out the spell's name , level, and how many there should be from the descriptions

" Ok, so when you were hanging over the pit with the rabid dire badgers, what spell did he use to cut the rope?"

"Well, he said "Fireball" and then a great ball of fire appeared over the rope..."

"That would be fireball sir."

"... you went to grad school for this?"

Along with this, wouldn't simply saying the name of the spell while casting it be enough for someone to identify it?

[Kish]

I know that most are going to tell me that I shouldn't read if I'm not a fan,

That would seem logical. I mean, if you haven't been enjoying it since the end of the battle for Azure City, and have no reason to believe the changes that make you no longer like it will revert, every second you spend reading it or posting about it is wasted time, no?

"The writing is bad" is effectively a content-free objection. "The jokes aren't center stage enough" is an objection which people have been (fruitlessly) making ever since we left the Dungeon of Dorukan. "Wall of text wordiness with little purpose" might, with widely agreed upon concepts of "purpose" and word counts, be a specific criticism, but as neither of those is extant, it's nearly as content-free as "the writing is bad."

[Arklite]

Within the limitations of the comic format, he is definitely one of the better paladin characters I have seen portrayed, but he just cannot match up to a character with more characterization like Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion from the series "The Deed of Paksenarrion".

I'm as big a fan of paladins as they come, and Paks doesn't hold a candle to O-Chul. Of course I thought the whole Paks series was disappointing in general- Elizabeth Moon did not impress me with her story telling. Paks felt exceptionally flat to me.

[pjackson]

We haven't actually seen O'chul fight anyone. He got one hit on Red Cloak and that's it. For all we know, his strength is in the low teens, along with a 10 dexterity. From what we've seen, O'chul's only "ability" is the ability to soak up lots of damage. We haven't seen him actually be effective at dealing damage in any capacity beyond stabbing a cleric in the eye.

We saw O-Chul smite Xykon when he invaded the throne room, and then get paralysed.
We saw him fight the hobgoblins and acid-breathing shark, and then get taken down by Xykon.
He got one hit on Redcloak then with a second attack took the phylactory from him.
Then he killed Jirix (with one hit - probably power attack with 2 handed weapon giving most of the damage - implying Str 13+), before Xykon took him down.
He grabbed the phylactory from Xykon, then was held.
When Xykon came back and attacked O-Chul went down straight away.

[Thanatosia]

Being fair, #1 and #2 survived their own fair shares of concerted efforts to kill them as well. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, they're the longest-surviving named NPCs outside of Team Evil, the lawyers, and (some) of the Linear Guild. I'm almost certain I'm overlooking someone here, but either way, they'd still be pretty high on the list for survival rate thus far.

Celia is probably the oldest surviving named NPC outside of Team Evil and Linear Guild, as she dates back to the Dungeon of Durokan.

[pjackson]

Like I say in my sig, O-chul is THE paladin.

THE paladin is Holger Carlsen of Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson
The original paladin class was created so that people could play characters like him (just as the ranger class was created so people could play characters like Aragorn).

O-Chul is a worthy successor.

[EyethatBinds]

"The writing is bad" isn't descriptive enough. You are correct.

The writing is meandering and seems to lack purpose: The last comic with the IFCC was two pages of wasted effort. We already knew that Sabine was subservient to them and this could've been done much less hamfistedly in a later comic, rather than devoting a whole comic to it.

The humor is backseat: Most comics now go with only a token joke given and are often poorly executed. The most recent example would be 669 which just keeps telling the same joke until someone laughs. Eventually the strip peters out.

The secondary [or even tertiary] characters take up far too much time: Which could be construed as the same as meandering writing, but has an important difference; it goes no where. Of course, Eugene burning a piece of paper that has a heavenly notice of evil within his party accomplishes nothing, save to showcase how selfish Roy's dead father is, but does that matter? Haven't we already seen examples of that in other comics?

I could go on, but you're probably right. If I'm not a fan I should just stop reading. So that's it.

[Jackson]

First, a nitpick: the last comic wit the IFCC was, at most, one page of wasted effort.

That said, your parse is actually inaccurate: the primary bit of information garnered through that comic wasn't that Sabine works for the IFCC, but rather that the IFCC's plan involved getting Xykon to leave Azure City and a greater degree of conflict surrounding the gates. Since most of the board seemed to assume that all of this was collateral damage to their true plan, the fact that it was part of their plan is both a new bit of story information and characterization for the recently-introduced-but-no-doubt-major group of adversaries.

This could have been introduced at another point, but probably no less ham-fistedly (I'm assuming you're claiming it's ham-fisted because it violates the principle of 'show, don't tell' here, since it wasn't introduced apropos of nothing, which would be my usual understanding of 'ham-fisted' in this context). In any case, nowhere near as simply as re-establishing that Sabine works for them at some indeterminate point in the future.

I wouldn't take the 'initiative' joke and the 'TURN UNDEAD' series of jokes as being identical, or the latter as being superior to the former. To me, they're just semi-humorous puns, with the former having the added benefit of not taking up the entire strip. If anything, strip #16 strikes me as being most aptly described as one that 'just keeps telling the same joke until someone laughs.'

Eugene burning that particular paper doesn't just show us how selfish Eugene is; it also serves to withhold that information from Roy until such point as he finds out on his own. That's the narrative point of that particular action. Not to repeat 'Hey, Eugene's a jerk. Isn't that something?'

I'm not going to argue whether or not the writing is good; I honestly don't think I have the perspective on the writing right now to be able to tell. It's a problem with getting a long-term arc one page at a time. But your examples of what is bad about the writing are inconsistent and deliberately misconstrue the 'point' of each episode in question. That doesn't mean the writing of the comic isn't bad, since the truth of a position isn't determined by the skill of the person arguing for it; what it means is that the writing of the post criticizing the writing of the comic is bad.

[Thrax]

I'm not getting bored with O-Chul, though I'm not a big fan of his either.

Now, if someone already derailed the thread to talk about how bad the comic is becoming, just let me explain.
I think I understand what the people like the EyethatBinds are trying to say. They liked "Dungeon Crawlin' Fools" because it was a simple comic that was just funny and was about adventuring. I would lie if I said that it wasn't what pulled me in too, although the comic have changed since. Now it is about an epic story that only happens to exist in world based on DnD. Some people may dislike the direction the story gone, but I love it - now we have an actual story, not just dungeon crawling fools. If you want just a batch of DnD jokes and nothing more, go read Darths and Droids or similar comics.

[derfenrirwolv]

Along with this, wouldn't simply saying the name of the spell while casting it be enough for someone to identify it?

Thats part of the joke

[noncaloric]

O-Chul is very good at one thing: enduring, so for being Xykon's POW, he was the man of the hour. His Crowning Moments of Awesome involve just hanging in there, not racking up the body count. He is understandable in terms of a lot of HP, good but not great saving throws, and average damage-dealing capacity.

Explaining him doesn't require something like Belkar's Preferred Enemy: Things Taller than Me.

[Dark Faun]

Thing is, well-played paladins are boring since they're supposed to be the closest thing there is to physical and moral perfection. They laugh at the concept of flaw.

[FlawedParadigm]

Thing is, well-played paladins are boring since they're supposed to be the closest thing there is to physical and moral perfection. They laugh at the concept of flaw.

Not so. Not only is that holding Paladins to ridiculous ideals, it's then turning around and lambasting them should they succeed. But even if they achieved such overblown ideals, they could still have plenty of flaws.

Forgetful, blind, maimed, deaf, dumb (as in silent), dumb (as in stupid), lack of confidence, pessimistic, single-minded, illiterate, clumsy, absent-minded, a tendency to misplace things, neglectful of own belongings, short attention span, limping, stuttering, lisping, nosy, irritating voice, pomposity, scorn, condescending, vanity, laziness, unable to plan ahead, poor sense of direction, phobias.

That's without even getting into flaws that might actually risk going against the Code, like misandry/misogyny/misanthropy, greed, short-tempered, prideful, lusty, narcissism, overzealous (albeit cliched), putting own honour above lives of others, appetite for titles/power, xenophobia, bigotry.

It's possible for a well-played Paladin to have any of these qualities, or others, and still remain well-played. Depending on how far the flaws go and how strictly the Code is interpreted in the game in question, they may even still be Paladins even with flaws from the second list.

Now granted, several of those flaws would make adventuring more difficult in varying degrees, but hey...they're flaws.

[73 Bits of Lint]

...Ok the OP was already pretty weird but at least I understood what he meant. But you? I honestly dont see anything about O-chul that can even remotely be considered cliche.

Like I say in my sig, O-chul is THE paladin. Hes not how anyone ever played a paladin. Hes not how I ever saw paladin being portrayed. Hes what paladins should be. Totally selfless. Incredibly respectfull. Very wise without being necessarily intelligent. Ready to put his life on the line for stangers. Full of mercy and forgiveness. All that while still being very strong.
Yeah, exactly. There's nothing to him, he's just a paladin. An archetype without any extra characterization or development. Back when he was just a second stringer for whoever happened to be in charge of Azure city, that was enough and he was quite amusing, but he doesn't have anything that merits all the spotlight-time he's gotten.

[GSFB]

To me the guy belongs in another comic with the likes of Solid Snake, James Bond, and other super tough heroes who always win even when they lose.

Do you know the only reason why you wrote this?

BECAUSE O'CHUL LET YOU LIVE!

[Faramir]

We saw O-Chul smite Xykon when he invaded the throne room, and then get paralysed.
We saw him fight the hobgoblins and acid-breathing shark, and then get taken down by Xykon.
He got one hit on Redcloak then with a second attack took the phylactory from him.
Then he killed Jirix (with one hit - probably power attack with 2 handed weapon giving most of the damage - implying Str 13+), before Xykon took him down.
He grabbed the phylactory from Xykon, then was held.
When Xykon came back and attacked O-Chul went down straight away.


Thanks for saving me the effort. I don't understand how anyone can claim that O-Chul was overpowered anywhere other than as portrayed in the Chuck Norris threads. He is an effective mid-level character, an honorable man and along with Hinjo another example of a "good" way to play a paladin.

[Taliesan]

He also follows it up with an amazingly successful sunder of the holy symbol.

Actually, he sundered the chain the symbol was on - which may not have required that much strength, we haven't seen evidence that the chain was masterwork, and it is difficult to tell how thick it is given that this is a stick figure comic.

He failed to sunder the symbol itself - in fact the symbol was so far from sundered that it survived the fall from the tower, into the sewers.

It is a subtle but important distinction.

[Taliesan]

As to Ochul - actually he isn't dull, a Mary Sue or otherwise a bad character. He is a bit of a breath of fresh air - a hero with every excuse to wangst who doesn't. If you read through the whole thing, you will find he sort of rocks - but this is about the right time for the Saphire Guard arc to end.

Which is to say he has served his purpose, as has most of the rest of the fleet, and it is time for a new arc that moves the party towards some of those other tantalising bits of the Stickverse. The SG can retake their city while the order moves on to the next gate.

[Mr. Scaly]

Do you know the only reason why you wrote this?

BECAUSE O'CHUL LET YOU LIVE!

Well THAT'S reassuring. :smallwink:

[Snake-Aes]

Why would O-Chul need Spellcraft ranks to identify the spells? Apparently in the OotSverse, the verbal components are the spells' names. Therefore, O-Chul would at least know the the name of any non-silent spell Xykon used.

Read the Origin of the PCs, the part where Roy and Haley meet.
It makes perfect sense that even though the guy said the spell's name, the characters won't recognize it without a spellcraft check.
O-Chul did specify he wanted their best scholar, odds are that's why he needed one: to idenfity anything he saw about Xykon.

[Estelindis]

I am not bored with O-Chul at all. He's a great NPC and Rich knows how to use him to his best effect in the story. :smallsmile:

As for the complaint that O-Chul's overpowered because he did some permanent damage to Redcloak...
1) Redcloak was already quite heavily wounded.
2) Miko was able to take down Redcloak from full hitpoints; he's obviously not ideally suited to fighting experienced paladins.
3) It's only permanent because Xykon decided to make a point.

[ericgrau]

O-Chul is a great well-rounded PC IMO. If anything I'd gripe that the 3 major paladins are too similar to eachother, especially now that Miko is gone. O-Chul has enough unique about him that it works out ok, but poor Lien hasn't gotten much development to differentiate herself from the others. And the way O-Chul's been reporting to Hinjo reminds me of the same vanilla paladin stuff we saw before O-Chul got captured. I didn't even notice him much before then; he was just another random NPC. I just hope little snippets like "one saving throw at a time" will continue to pop up so we can see the same awesome O-Chul.

[Dark Faun]

Not so. Not only is that holding Paladins to ridiculous ideals, it's then turning around and lambasting them should they succeed. But even if they achieved such overblown ideals, they could still have plenty of flaws.

Forgetful, blind, maimed, deaf, dumb (as in silent), dumb (as in stupid), lack of confidence, pessimistic, single-minded, illiterate, clumsy, absent-minded, a tendency to misplace things, neglectful of own belongings, short attention span, limping, stuttering, lisping, nosy, irritating voice, pomposity, scorn, condescending, vanity, laziness, unable to plan ahead, poor sense of direction, phobias.

That's without even getting into flaws that might actually risk going against the Code, like misandry/misogyny/misanthropy, greed, short-tempered, prideful, lusty, narcissism, overzealous (albeit cliched), putting own honour above lives of others, appetite for titles/power, xenophobia, bigotry.

It's possible for a well-played Paladin to have any of these qualities, or others, and still remain well-played. Depending on how far the flaws go and how strictly the Code is interpreted in the game in question, they may even still be Paladins even with flaws from the second list.

Now granted, several of those flaws would make adventuring more difficult in varying degrees, but hey...they're flaws.
My post was tongue in cheek and I agree. But other than having low Charisma, O-Chul has no flaw, so I understand why people may find him boring.

[factotum]

My post was tongue in cheek and I agree. But other than having low Charisma, O-Chul has no flaw, so I understand why people may find him boring.

No flaw? You mean other than being pretty much incapable of dealing any damage? O-Chul has a massive Con score and lots of hit points, which allows him to survive--that's about all he can do, though; look at how singularly ineffective he was in destroying Xykon's phylactery.

[Dark Faun]

Oh, you mean the phylactery Xykon filled with so many abjuration spells to protect it he forgot what half of them do? The same phylactery which survived a huge fall into the sewers, unscathed? Truly, O-Chul is a weakling for being unable to damage it.

Incapable of dealing any damage? Tell that to Redcloak and Jirix.

[Callista]

He's not a PC, but he's still a pretty cool character. I'd put him on the same rank, storywise, as characters like Hinjo, Nale, Tsukiko, or Eugene Greenhilt--major supporting character. I like having him around, but he's too mature to be a PC--not "mature" as in age, but "mature" as in "my character development happened before this story started and will remain static"--a good sign that he is a secondary character and will remain thus. Which is as it should be--the story should be focused on Roy and his group versus Xykon, with subplots along the way. Try to add O-Chul to the mix, and you're looking at an awkward reshuffling of the group dynamics that serves no real purpose.

[Spiky]

I don't know, I started off liking him well enough...I was impressed with his stoic attitude and his ability to out wrestle sharks swimming in acid. But by now he feels like he's lived longer than he should have. Plus he seems too invincible. He can get blasted by spells all day long, convince villains of the virtues of being yourself, wrestle with liches and high leveled clerics and still has the intelligence to deduce all kinds of information about the enemy even through the pain? That stretches my disbelief way past the breaking point. To me the guy belongs in another comic with the likes of Solid Snake, James Bond, and other super tough heroes who always win even when they lose.

Someone tell me I'm not alone! :smallsmile:
O-Chul (and his author) is not responsible for your boredom, you are. So it is difficult to see what you want.

A couple posters have hinted at this, but the one point that really doesn't work is the "blasted by spells" issue. Xykon and Redcloak very carefully damaged him just enough to not kill him. Repeatedly. That is on them, torturing him. Whether OC has 5 or 500 hp, they would have done the same thing. His large hp total just made it take longer every day. This is not an OC issue you have, it is a Xykon/RC issue.

I guess you don't like torture. That's probably good. I'd say there is a little too much love for the violence on these boards.

[Taliesan]

Discord

Oh, you mean the phylactery Xykon filled with so many abjuration spells to protect it he forgot what half of them do? The same phylactery which survived a huge fall into the sewers, unscathed? Truly, O-Chul is a weakling for being unable to damage it.

Incapable of dealing any damage? Tell that to Redcloak and Jirix

Oookay. How about this, he deals about the damage expected of a fighter/paladin of at least level 12, who focusses on meat-shield style melee?

(Reason for him having to be at least level 12: Human Con scores max out at 18, every four levels you gain one point to your stats, so he would have to have leveled up at least 12 times to get a score over 20)