Is Nale Lawful?

[Haarkla]

I would say Nale is Neutral Evil based on his behaviour.

He lies repeatedly, breaks the law, breaks his word, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0046.html) betrays the Order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) and his own succubus girlfriend considers him a treacherous weasel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html).

He does not appear to follow any code, but does whatever is most convenient for him at the time.

Which sounds more like Nale?

A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
The only lawful things about him are his liking for needlessly complicated plans, and his insistence on an evil opposites theme for his band, but I dont think this in nearly enough to make him lawfully aligned.

He says he is Lawful Evil, but phrapse he doesn't know his own alignment and merely thinks he is. Or phrapse he is lying.

[Issabella]

Gut feeling, and some of the things the Giant has written in the books, particularly wars and exp, I say Nale in Neutral Evil. He hates, he destroys. He might come up with a plan (overly complicated), but I think that is more of an honor to Wile E Coyotee (super genius!). Of the three main villains I think the Giant wanted to give us a spread of the alignments. So you have Redcloak as LE, Bone Dady as CE, and Nale as NE.

[Snowyowl]

:smallannoyed:
I personally vote for Lawful because he, like Elan, knows the dramatic requirements of his role (i.e. the recurring villain) and sticks to them.
But anyway, without some NEW evidence to back you up, you're just indulging in some idle speculation. And Nale hasn't been in this comic for a while, so I don't see any reason to awaken this debate.

Anyway, as you said,
he says he is Lawful Evil. So, you're trying to contradict something that is EXPLICITLY WRITTEN IN THE COMIC :smallconfused: I don't get the point of that.

Finally, remember the long trial about "weakening the fabric of reality"? Ceila's main point was that you don't have to act following your alignment all the time, but strive towards it. Heck, Nale's only human. As are all the others actually; no-one follows their alignment perfectly (there are a few dosen other threads on this subject).

[Turkish Delight]

Anyway, as you said, So, you're trying to contradict something that is EXPLICITLY WRITTEN IN THE COMIC :smallconfused: I don't get the point of that.

Even if written explicitly in the comic, it doesn't mean it makes sense. If the comic officially declared Belkar Lawful Good and he still went around stabbing people at random, all that would mean is that the comic is contradictory. To a less drastic degree, the same applies here; if Nale's behavior is consistently Neutral Evil, then no matter what he says in the comic people have a right to call him on it.

In this case, I tend to agree with the above two posters that Nale acts much more Neutral Evil than Lawful Evil. He hasn't really shown any sign that he cares at all about 'the rules' or adhering to a code.

[Snake-Aes]

Lawful != follows the law.

[Milskidasith]

However, it does say lawful evil characters are loathe to break promises, and practically all of Nale's plans involve him backstabbing the Order and betraying people. That is very drastically un-lawful.

[Ancalagon]

I think Nale is too complicated to really be lawful. Kubota was a lawful evil villian, Nale is follows more himself than any sort of "order".

[Snake-Aes]

However, it does say lawful evil characters are loathe to break promises, and practically all of Nale's plans involve him backstabbing the Order and betraying people. That is very drastically un-lawful.

Uhh, no. lawful characters are methodical, a LE character has no reason to keep his word if it doesn't benefit him.

[Ancalagon]

Uhh, no. lawful characters are methodical, a LE character has no reason to keep his word if it doesn't benefit him.

Yes, he'll keep his word if he has to. If he does not have to and thinks he can get away with it, a LE evil character will also break it and backstab you.

[Turkish Delight]

Uhh, no. lawful characters are methodical, a LE character has no reason to keep his word if it doesn't benefit him.

Ahh, the joys of the alignment system. At the very least the bit above contradicts this.


A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.

Basically, what code of conduct is Nale following that he is loathe to break? What tradition and loyalty does he care about? He doesn't seem to really give a fig about methodical behavior; he's just evil, without being either capricious in the fashion of a Chaotic character or bound by codes of behavior like a Lawful character. If he weren't the evil twin of a Chaotic Good character, and if he hadn't declared himself to be Lawful Evil earlier, I would call him as Neutral Evil in a heartbeat.

[TerrickTerran]

Times like t his I prefer Arcana Evolved's nonalignment system. Then we don't have such arguments.

[AstralFire]

As evidenced by Roy's judging, alignment in OotS is partially your actions/personality and partially how you view yourself, much as most DMs allow their players some leeway in their alignments so long as they're not becoming their alignment's sheer antithesis. Nale is clearly some kind of evil by his actions, and he declares himself lawful and probably views himself as lawful by some twisted bent purely to hype up the evil opposites factor. Chaos/Law is also by far the more befuddled spectrum; so, good enough for me.

[Turkish Delight]

Times like t his I prefer Arcana Evolved's nonalignment system. Then we don't have such arguments.

Yep. The alignment system is entertaining to bicker about, just for the sake of bickering, but at bottom I find it's pretty useless. This applies to the Good-Evil axis just as much as the Lawful-Chaotic axis. It's just a lazy way of giving a crude, but concise, description of behavior to something without actually having to think of silly little things like a distinctive individual personality.

[AstralFire]

You just described its best use - concise character shorthand. As long as you think of it as a vague guideline or shorthand, it's no more restrictive than announcing your class as part of a response when asked about your character concept.

[derfenrirwolv]

I would say yes, but mostly for metagame reasons.

Elan is chaotic good (any doubters there belong in the Belkar is lawful good camp)

Nale, as his opposite, would be lawful evil

Elan was raised by a chaotic good barmaid, and has her alignment

Nale was raised by a LE lord of Tyrania

[petersohn]

Elan is chaotic good (any doubters there belong in the Belkar is lawful good camp)

What if I say that Elan is, despite what "is said", Neutral Good. Haley is undoubtedly more chaotic than he is.

[Kish]

What if I say that Elan is, despite what "is said", Neutral Good.

Then you belong in the "Belkar is Neutral Evil" camp.

Haley is undoubtedly more chaotic than he is.
Oh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html), really (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html)?

Haley's a different kind of chaotic than he is. As far as level of chaoticness, though, I'd say only Xykon is in Elan's league. If you have an argument for Haley being more chaotic than Elan that isn't actually about Haley being less good than Elan, I'll be surprised.

[derfenrirwolv]

As far as level of chaoticness, though, I'd say only Xykon is in Elan's league

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html


last panel

vs

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html

:)


Hmmm... they must be related. Mayby elan is thor's great great grandson?

[Morty]

Nale tends to make overly complicated plans before doing anything. That's a very Lawful trait. And although he broke his promise to the Order, he tried to fulfill his contract with Xykon.

[Turkish Delight]

You just described its best use - concise character shorthand. As long as you think of it as a vague guideline or shorthand, it's no more restrictive than announcing your class as part of a response when asked about your character concept.

Just so long as it's very vague. And can't be detected by cheap spells. Then, I can see a use in the alignment system; a sort of very, very crude framework on which you can build an interesting character.

But otherwise, for anything beyond a simple dungeon crawl, it's way too simplistic, confusing and contradictory. Well-developed characters usually won't fit into neat little alignment boxes, and if whatever box you've dropped them into becomes at all confining, why not just chuck it out entirely?

To stay on subject, Nale seems to work well with his team. That makes him kind of lawful. He also betrays people all over the place. That makes him kind of chaotic. He holds to his deal with Xykon. That makes him kind of lawful. He often seems to like to kill people just for the sake of the killing and doesn't really have much of a code of conduct we can see. That makes him kind of chaotic.

If the comic weren't a send-up of AD&D and Rich were playing things straight, why not just ditch the whole waste of time and say Nale is Nale?

Meh.

[AstralFire]

I agree that the objective alignment system just doesn't work very well as a mechanism. The problem is mostly that 'good' 'evil' 'law' and 'chaos' are too poorly and inconsistently defined since D&D wants to simultaneously be a generic fantasy system and one rooted in a setting.

EDIT: Nale is clearly an acronym for NATURALLY ALL LAWFUL EVIL.

[factotum]

I think Nale *does* show signs of following a code. For instance, he kept the "evil opposites" idea going long after it ceased being relevant--he acknowledged himself what a mistake that was as they flew away from Azure City. He is exceptionally selfish, admittedly, which is why he tends to do things to benefit himself regardless of what the current plan is...

[Faceist]

I think a strong case can be made for both options. Nale clearly views himself as Lawful Evil (he states as much) and it makes sense for his self-imposed theme of evil opposites, with the Chaotic Good Elan opposing the Lawful Evil Nale. However while he does possess some lawful traits (upholding his contract with Xykon; carrying on his theme of evil opposites; his penchant for extremely convoluted plans) they can all be excused by neutral or outright chaotic reasons (he was going to kill Elan anyway, for "betraying" him by choosing to remain with the Order; the theme of evil opposites has actually been detrimental in the case of Pompey; some of his plans, such as the one involving rocket skates, verged on insanity, and one involved the pointless killing of hundreds of people) which leads into some ambiguity.

Personally I'd say he's neutral evil because his egotism and selfishness override his 'code', such as it is.

[Cizak]

"Of course, I'm Lawful Evil..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html)

[AstralFire]

Er, the OP already knows about that, chief.

The entire point of an alignment thread is to argue against commonly available evidence. :smalltongue:

[Turkish Delight]

"Of course, I'm Lawful Evil..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html)

Oy. Make sure and read the entire first post before you rush to post a link.

[waterpenguin43]

But Nale had planned in the first place to betray the order, as part of his contract to Xykon. Nale makes overly long plans, he cares about Sabine and Thog and he is dedicated to killing the order and finding the gates. He feels lawful evil with neutral evil traits to me (Elan is Chaotic Good with Neutral Good traits).

[Janmorel]

Nale is lawful in the old school, "Villain's Handbook" sense of the word. He is methodical, ruthless, and traditional almost to "Before I kill you, Mr. Bond" levels. His less lawful "backstabbing" moments have all had to do with Elan, and, given their relationship, this is a weakness on his part that contrasts with his usual "villain bent on world conquest" MO. Lawful alignment does not mean that every action performed must be Lawful, after all.

And to put a more OotS-like spin on things, both brothers seem to have a stronger-than-average awareness of Story Convention. For Nale, it is the code that he follows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html), whereas for Elan it's a way to work the system (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html). Law vs. Chaos.

[Yellow]

I have a question please

Why does it matter

[Blue Ghost]

Hey, who said it mattered? :smallwink: It's just something we argue about for the heck of it.

[Duaneyo1]

I'll vote for lawful evil. Although, he does have a mix of both lawful and chaotic traits. Actually most of main characters in the comic ( except for the paladins) don't have cookie cutter alignments. Though, Xykon and Elan are text book CG and CE.

[Jaltum]

Quick note--the rocket skates were in the plan because Thog demanded them. He makes Nale carry them over to the new plan. Appeasing Thog seems to be becoming an increasingly important part of Nale's plans.

[David Argall]

I have a question please

Why does it matter

Such a question is deemed subversive around these parts.

[pjackson]

Just so long as it's very vague. And can't be detected by cheap spells. Then, I can see a use in the alignment system; a sort of very, very crude framework on which you can build an interesting character.

It is not a good system for building a character, but is a good system for describing characters that allows for magic to work differently for characters who behave differently, which is a common idea in fantasy.


But otherwise, for anything beyond a simple dungeon crawl, it's way too simplistic, confusing and contradictory. Well-developed characters usually won't fit into neat little alignment boxes, and if whatever box you've dropped them into becomes at all confining, why not just chuck it out entirely?


It is easy to assign an alignment to any character, and only confining if misused.



To stay on subject, Nale seems to work well with his team. That makes him kind of lawful. He also betrays people all over the place. That makes him kind of chaotic. He holds to his deal with Xykon. That makes him kind of lawful. He often seems to like to kill people just for the sake of the killing and doesn't really have much of a code of conduct we can see. That makes him kind of chaotic.


Nale (and thus presumably Nale's hypothetical player) says he is Lawful Evil. Unless there is strong evidence to the contrary that should be taken as correct. Nale's betrayals seem more in the line of abandoning subordinates which is an evil trait rather than a chaotic one. Nor does he kill just for the sake of killing, he tends to have a reason. He has a code of taking excessive revenge for all denials.

[ericgrau]

+1 vote for lawful evil since he says it himself, generally exhibits it and we have no great reason to believe otherwise.

He breaks his word to his enemies, betrays his enemies, and Nale has no idea his treachery was considered trachery as evidenced by the 5th panel. Isn't it much more likely that members of an alignment don't need to fit an overly-restrictive stereotype that forces them to perform exactly one action in every situation? Would you prefer "Hello Roy, since I'm lawful I should tell you I'm actually here to kill you instead of lying even though you guys might beat us in a straight fight. Okay let's fight now. Durr." Yeah, that's what we call lawful stupid when people play d&d like that. Where are the strips showing that Nale is MORE neutral than lawful... rather than some nitpicky exceptions to lawfulness? Heck, by the given method of nitpicky-ness you could prove that every single character in the strip is neither lawful, neutral, chaotic, good, neutral, nor evil.

[FrankNorman]

I've been questioning Nale's claims to Lawfulness for a long while. I'm glad to see a few others have noticed that he doesn't "walk his talk" there.

Isn't it really a continuum though, rather than 9 distinct pigeonholes? Nale is perhaps borderline Lawful/Neutral Evil.

[Snake-Aes]

Requoting the text reference about lawful evil...The first people who quoted this mentioned "loath to break promises". Okay. Now read the bolded parts.


A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises. This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society.

These characters believe in using society and its laws to benefit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master(s) and servant(s). To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benefits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment.

Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains. Others may commit themselves to evil with a zeal like that of a crusader committed to good. Beyond being willing to hurt others for their own ends, they take pleasure in spreading evil as an end unto itself. They may also see doing evil as part of a duty to an evil deity or master.

Lawful evil is the alignment which represents methodical, intentional, and frequently successfully evil (in stark contrast to the unstable and self-destructive chaotic evil alignment). It is sometimes called "diabolical," because devils are the epitome of lawful evil. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.
Lawful Evil doesn't mean you always stick to your own word. A better way to say it is that you stick to your word for as long as it's CONVENIENT to do so. It tends to be a much more free way to interpret alignments as tendencies, as general patterns instead of hardcoded instructions. A Chaotic Evil character will say "I don't like you <stab>", a Neutral Evil character will think "I don't like you" and tell the other guy"he told me he did your mother", a Lawful Evil character will think "I don't like you" and use you as an escapegoat.

[Acero]

he has stated b4 he is LAWFUL evil

[FrankNorman]

he has stated b4 he is LAWFUL evil

And Nale wouldn't lie to you about that, would he?

[Acero]

And Nale wouldn't lie to you about that, would he?

no. 'cause hes lawful

[Kish]

Recursion!

[Hurkyl]

Your powers of deception and trickery are bewildering. (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=211)

[Ancalagon]

he has stated b4 he is LAWFUL evil

Yeah, he can think to be lawful evil all day long if he wants to... it does not make it happen if he was not.

We know people in oots are generally aware of alignments, but we are not sure if they are THAT aware that they can see and know them. I believe that Nale surely believes himself to be lawful evil, but that does not mean he actually is that.

[pflare]

Yes he is lawful evil just like his father.