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View Full Version : What is a "Chaos Shuffle?"



Barbarian MD
2009-07-25, 08:31 PM
I heard the word randomly today on the boards, and I had no idea what it meant. A google and GiTP search make me think it's something incredibly cheesy and powerful. Can anyone explain?

Dhavaer
2009-07-25, 08:33 PM
Using the spells embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos to change one feat to another. It cheesy in that you can use it on feats like elven racial proficiencies.

Signmaker
2009-07-25, 08:33 PM
I do believe it's the usage of the Fiendish Codex's "Embrace the Dark Chaos" and "Shun the Dark Chaos".

Embrace lets you trade in any feat you own for a 'tainted' feat.
Shun lets you trade in any tainted feat you own for any feat in which you might qualify.

For an example on the kinds of shenanigans that might ensue from such an arrangement, consider a gestalt Fighter20/Wizard 20. Who Embrace/Shuns all fighter feats in to metamagic feats.

Talic
2009-07-25, 08:37 PM
I do believe it's the usage of the Fiendish Codex's "Embrace the Dark Chaos" and "Shun the Dark Chaos".

Embrace lets you trade in any feat you own for a 'tainted' feat.
Shun lets you trade in any tainted feat you own for any feat in which you might qualify.

For an example on the kinds of shenanigans that might ensue from such an arrangement, consider a gestalt Fighter20/Wizard 20. Who Embrace/Shuns all fighter feats in to metamagic feats.

No, the real shenanigans is when you have several racial feats, and you shuffle them, and find a way to restore them. Then it's infinite feats.

Martial Weapon Prof: Longbow > Embrace to Tainted.
Taint > Shun to anything.

jmbrown
2009-07-25, 08:40 PM
It's gross spells like this that make me miss the drawbacks from early edition spells like haste adding a year to your life.

Okay, maybe I don't miss them that much but still. I would expect something like embrace the dark chaos would have a material component of your eternal soul.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-25, 08:43 PM
Well, they're [Chaos] spells I believe. So willingly accepting them may have some lasting moral implications depending on DMs.

Doc Roc
2009-07-25, 09:03 PM
So yeah, experience costs can be trivialized, but with a gentle hand at the wheel, it shouldn't be. The shuffle is expensive, painful, and involves tainting your soul. Play with the taint mechanics from UA, and ban the classes that benefit from them.

Job Done.

Gorbash
2009-07-25, 09:12 PM
Or, you know, just don't allow it as a DM.

It bugs me when people cry wolf at certain cheesy builds and tricks when 99% wouldn't think twice about just flat out saying 'no' to them.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-25, 09:26 PM
No, the real shenanigans is when you have several racial feats, and you shuffle them, and find a way to restore them. Then it's infinite feats.

Martial Weapon Prof: Longbow > Embrace to Tainted.
Taint > Shun to anything.

Elder Evil devotion allows this. Theoretically, you can devote yourself, DCFS the feats, undevote yourself, redevote yourself, and repeat ad nausea. 5 feats every time for a 20th level character.

Maerok
2009-07-25, 09:31 PM
Or, you know, just don't allow it as a DM.

It bugs me when people cry wolf at certain cheesy builds and tricks when 99% wouldn't think twice about just flat out saying 'no' to them.

Then they just snap at you and go "You think this is broken? Well let me tell you..."