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View Full Version : Just what are kobolds anyway?



Coidzor
2009-07-25, 09:49 PM
Are they supposed to be the descendants of cursed dragons?

Some kind of biological construct slave made back in days of yore?

What happens when mommy dragons don't have daddy dragons (or daddy humans...or elves...or... well... anything with a Y chromosome) and just lay the eggs unfertilized?

FoE
2009-07-25, 09:50 PM
Small reptilian humanoids. That's it.

Assassin89
2009-07-25, 09:52 PM
There are two types of kolbolds: The hairy ones and the scaly ones.

For all I know, the scaly ones could just be egotistical creatures that claim descent from dragons to boost their egos.

chiasaur11
2009-07-25, 10:03 PM
Your future overlords.

Sorry. Just the way it goes.

Civil War Man
2009-07-25, 10:05 PM
For all I know, the scaly ones could just be egotistical creatures that claim descent from dragons to boost their egos.

They did a pretty damned good job of it, then. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953690000) :smallbiggrin:

Haven
2009-07-25, 10:06 PM
These (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2388/moongiftbn1.gif) guys (http://4chan.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3038348/images/1227335089780.png).

The latter I made my one-shot Kobold Avenger's official backstory. After that happened, he dedicated himself to Avandra, because it was such a stroke of luck.

jmbrown
2009-07-25, 10:32 PM
Kobolds are diminutive bipedal canines that live in fear of an ever hungry warlord and religiously serve a cruel demon master. Their insatiable appetite and rapid breeding force them to raid human villages but their curiosity and general bad luck usually results in their hilarious deaths.

afroakuma
2009-07-25, 10:34 PM
What are kobolds?

Delicious in satay. :belkar: They make good nacho dip, too...

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-25, 10:48 PM
These (http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2388/moongiftbn1.gif) guys (http://4chan.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/3038348/images/1227335089780.png).

The latter I made my one-shot Kobold Avenger's official backstory. After that happened, he dedicated himself to Avandra, because it was such a stroke of luck.

Aww...Kobolds DO have their sensitive side after all. :smallsmile:

jmbrown
2009-07-25, 10:52 PM
Aww...Kobolds DO have their sensitive side after all. :smallsmile:

Yes. Yes, they do. (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/a/ac/Deekin_portrait.jpg/200px-Deekin_portrait.jpg)

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-25, 10:55 PM
Technically, in 3.5 cannon, Kobolds are descendants of the first Green Dragon to lose true immortality. Or at least that's what Races of the Dragon says.

Berserk Monk
2009-07-25, 11:00 PM
Kobold=xp fodder. This is basic gaming knowledge.

Recaiden
2009-07-25, 11:09 PM
Technically, in 3.5 cannon, Kobolds are descendants of the first Green Dragon to lose true immortality. Or at least that's what Races of the Dragon says.

This, although I think it is that some were created from each of the original dragons when they became mortal.

Earlier, they were more doglike, and basically jsur another race of humanoids.

@Berserk Monk: Or your worst nightmare.

Wind d8/d12
2009-07-25, 11:10 PM
Kobolds are a central european demon that it is believed came about when I child was sacrificed to the gods to protect and prosper a village. They were chosen at birth and kept alive but completely isolated until there 7, at which time they were brought before the village, bound, and killed through bloodletting.

The children sacrificed in this was were denied contact with anybody other than the mother or a wetnurse, who was forbidden from speaking to them. If they had to be moved they would be drugged and blind folded. Never allowing the child to see or hear a human was the charge of special blood-bound guards (possibly Eunuchs) on pain of death.

Also they are almost as popular as Gnomes as a PC now.

Pun-Pun is their God, as well as his own, as well as his pet.

golentan
2009-07-25, 11:11 PM
Yes. Yes, they do. (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/a/ac/Deekin_portrait.jpg/200px-Deekin_portrait.jpg)

"I once traveled with a kobold bard. He rhymed Sadder with Bladder and sang fondly about his navel."

Kobolds are distantly descended from dragons, and have an awesome cooperative society. They are ingenious, inventive, motivated, and more. I love kobolds.

Trodon
2009-07-25, 11:13 PM
What are kobolds?

Delicious in satay. :belkar: They make good nacho dip, too...

That is what I was going to say. :smallfrown:

Set
2009-07-25, 11:32 PM
What happens when mommy dragons don't have daddy dragons (or daddy humans...or elves...or... well... anything with a Y chromosome) and just lay the eggs unfertilized?

An appropriate number of Kobolds come out of the egg, with scales tinted the same color as their 'mother' and being fanatically loyal to their mother.

Male dragons can mate with anything and make 1/2 Dragon flunkies. Female dragons don't play that game (mate with a lion to make a dragonne? No thank you. Dragonesses don't bottom for food.), and instead produce litters of fanatical little dragon-dudes.

tiercel
2009-07-26, 05:19 AM
What kobolds are, is an excuse for the DM to break out the ruleset on traps. Lots of traps. Bending and twisting and breaking the ruleset on traps. And pulling out d20 supplements on traps. Grimtooth's, anyone?

Actual kobolds are there to snicker at the PCs as they fall prey to the traps. Particularly vindictive kobolds may hold up big scorecard placards or offer color commentary.

... okay, seriously, in and of themselves kobolds are incredibly weak challenges for low-level PCs in a direct combat confrontation, but a fiendishly nasty challenge when utilized by a particularly evil-minded DM who likes to use numbers and ambush tactics in combination with spellcasting, alchemy, and yes traps. (Because what causes chagrin in PCs like getting pwned by kobolds? Tucker, anyone?)

Triaxx
2009-07-26, 05:35 AM
Kobolds are cutprice dragons. They are to dragons as rats are to bears. Annoying and similar, but not nearly as powerful.

Unlike Dragons however, they always have the advantage of numbers or should, and thus are usually tactically superior.

Tetsubo 57
2009-07-26, 05:37 AM
An appropriate number of Kobolds come out of the egg, with scales tinted the same color as their 'mother' and being fanatically loyal to their mother.

Male dragons can mate with anything and make 1/2 Dragon flunkies. Female dragons don't play that game (mate with a lion to make a dragonne? No thank you. Dragonesses don't bottom for food.), and instead produce litters of fanatical little dragon-dudes.

I've done something similar. Unfertilized eggs hatch out kobolds that are fanatically loyal to the dragon that laid the egg. Of course my dragons are hermaphrodites that can all lay unfertilized eggs. They can only lay fertilized eggs after mating with another dragon.

MickJay
2009-07-26, 05:41 AM
One version I know was that Kobolds were originally associated with mines and with "switching" valuable metal ores with cobalt (hence the name) ore. So basically, they started as mischevious underground critters that pestered human miners.

In D&D, real cobolds were canine and had fur, don't let anyone tell you otherwise :smalltongue: Those scaly critters that got popular in recent years are just impostors.

only1doug
2009-07-26, 08:40 AM
One version I know was that Kobolds were originally associated with mines and with "switching" valuable metal ores with cobalt (hence the name) ore. So basically, they started as mischevious underground critters that pestered human miners.

In D&D, real cobolds were canine and had fur, don't let anyone tell you otherwise :smalltongue: Those scaly critters that got popular in recent years are just impostors.

Yes, Cobolds are canine, Kobolds are dragonspawned... there ya go, problem solved.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-26, 08:46 AM
I really liked those cartoons, Haven. :smallsmile: Was the 2nd one a Dwarf Fortress reference? Weren't Kobolds dog-like in earlier Editions before becoming reptillian?

Riffington
2009-07-26, 08:47 AM
"I once traveled with a kobold bard. He rhymed Sadder with Bladder and sang fondly about his navel."

Kobolds are distantly descended from dragons, and have an awesome cooperative society. They are ingenious, inventive, motivated, and more. I love kobolds.

Nothing descended from a Dragon has a navel. I hope this does not ruin your love.

jmbrown
2009-07-26, 09:57 AM
I really liked those cartoons, Haven. :smallsmile: Was the 2nd one a Dwarf Fortress reference? Weren't Kobolds dog-like in earlier Editions before becoming reptillian?

Kobolds have always been described as being scaly humanoids. The confusion came from 2E where the monster manual described their appearance as being canine like and their language sounding like yelps and barks.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-26, 10:02 AM
Thanks for clarifying, JM. Regarding what Kobolds are, I tend to view them as basically being miners which are more likely to be Sorcerers while having a well ordered society (I disagree with having "usually/always alignment x" races, and I hate the idea of using specific races as cannon-fodder, so I make Kobolds stronger in games which I'm DMing).

jmbrown
2009-07-26, 10:22 AM
Thanks for clarifying, JM. Regarding what Kobolds are, I tend to view them as basically being miners which are more likely to be Sorcerers while having a well ordered society (I disagree with having "usually/always alignment x" races, and I hate the idea of using specific races as cannon-fodder, so I make Kobolds stronger in games which I'm DMing).

You can blame their bad rep on The Keep on the Borderlands. It was pretty much DnD for Dummies and included a bunch of stuff that wasn't in the 1E Basic set so it basically held the DM by the hand. You come across a keep in the wilderness contested between warring tribes of goblinoids, orcs, and kobolds. The kobolds are the first monster tribe you encounter and subsequently the easiest to defeat.

Then 2nd edition came out and their description basically turned them into a joke.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-26, 12:33 PM
What was the 2nd Edition description? That module sounded a lot like Sunless Citadel by the sounds of it.

Haven
2009-07-26, 12:59 PM
I really liked those cartoons, Haven. :smallsmile: Was the 2nd one a Dwarf Fortress reference? Weren't Kobolds dog-like in earlier Editions before becoming reptillian?

They actually both were; the first one is based on a Dwarf Fortress spin-off called Kobold Camp, where the kobolds look like this (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/File:Koboldtileset.png).

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-26, 01:10 PM
Thanks for explaining. :smallsmile: I'm looking up information on Kobold Camp now (I consider Kobolds to be cute so I'd probably like it).

golentan
2009-07-26, 02:12 PM
Nothing descended from a Dragon has a navel. I hope this does not ruin your love.

Not at all. If anything, it merely highlights the ingenuity of kobolds in all things.

It's a quote from Neverwinter, where the portrait was from.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-07-26, 02:23 PM
Yes. Yes, they do. (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/thumb/a/ac/Deekin_portrait.jpg/200px-Deekin_portrait.jpg)

Yay Deekin! He was always my favorite character in that game.

John Campbell
2009-07-26, 04:10 PM
These small, evil dog-like men usually live underground. They have scaly rust-brown skin and no hair. They have well developed infravision (heat-sensing sight) to a 90' range. They prefer to attack by ambush.

There's an accompanying picture, which I might scan if I get unlazy enough. Suffice it to say that they're definitely mammals, despite the scaly skin, and any allegations that they're related to dragons in any way whatsoever are merely delusions of grandeur.

Morty
2009-07-26, 04:12 PM
The kobolds' association with dragons is simply an effect of WoTC's philosophy that the best way to make something better is to add more dragons.

FoE
2009-07-26, 05:02 PM
the best way to make something better is to add more dragons.

To be fair, they're not the only ones who do this, and dragons are pretty damn awesome. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantAwesomeJustAddDragons)

Morty
2009-07-26, 05:04 PM
To be fair, they're not the only ones who do this, and dragons are pretty damn awesome. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InstantAwesomeJustAddDragons)

Although the entire gaming world seems to have this strange obsession with overgrown, flying lizards, WoTC takes it to the extreme, I'd say. Need to make kobolds less lame? Dragons. Need to make sorcerers unique? Dragons. Need to release a new supplement? Write some that are related to dragons. Need an interesting element of a new setting? Dragons. Need to make a new race for the new edition of their game? Dragons.

Jergmo
2009-07-26, 05:08 PM
Although the entire gaming world seems to have this strange obsession with overgrown, flying lizards, WoTC takes it to the extreme, I'd say. Need to make kobolds less lame? Dragons. Need to make sorcerers unique? Dragons. Need to release a new supplement? Write some that are related to dragons. Need an interesting element of a new setting? Dragons. Need to make a new race for the new edition of their game? Dragons.

Look, dragons live for thousands of years, typically they're given the ability to polymorph, and just hanging out in their lair would get boring. You'd experiment, too! :smalltongue:

FoE
2009-07-26, 05:13 PM
We're of differing minds on the subject, Mort. In the write-up on dragonborn in the 4E Player's Handbook, it suggests playing a dragonborn character if you like being a dragonlike character. To me that reads:

PHB: Do you like being a character that's TOTALLY F***ING AWESOME?
ME: Yes, I do enjoy being awesome.
PHB: Then play this TOTALLY F***ING AWESOME new character race.
ME: F*** YES.

That said, dragonborn are third on the list of TOTALLY F***ING AWESOME character races, after tieflings and warforged.

The only thing that would possibly be greater in my mind is some guitar-playing ninja that exploded zombie heads with the power of rock.

Kris Strife
2009-07-26, 05:31 PM
Nothing descended from a Dragon has a navel. I hope this does not ruin your love.

Why not? Snakes technically have navels. Navels are where the umbilical cord (or what ever the cord that connects an embryo to the yolk sac of the egg is called) was attached.

Now going by the RotD origion, the first set of kobolds (including Kurtlmak, who was created by a green dragon) wouldn't have navels as they were created as full grown adults.

only1doug
2009-07-26, 05:31 PM
Although the entire gaming world seems to have this strange obsession with overgrown, flying lizards, WoTC takes it to the extreme, I'd say. Need to make kobolds less lame? Dragons. Need to make sorcerers unique? Dragons. Need to release a new supplement? Write some that are related to dragons. Need an interesting element of a new setting? Dragons. Need to make a new race for the new edition of their game? Dragons.

yeah, bleeping Wizards of the coast, I hear that their latest plan is to build a time machine just so they can go back and change the name of the game to include dragons in it. How dare they get dragons and dungeons in my game of Squires and Squirrels.

Set
2009-07-26, 06:54 PM
One version I know was that Kobolds were originally associated with mines and with "switching" valuable metal ores with cobalt (hence the name) ore. So basically, they started as mischevious underground critters that pestered human miners.

In D&D, real cobolds were canine and had fur, don't let anyone tell you otherwise :smalltongue: Those scaly critters that got popular in recent years are just impostors.

I like the notion of having the more hirsute and long-armed (and ever so slightly ape or dog like) Kobolds be the miners and craftsmen nearly on par with the dwarves (and totally replacing the Duergar), and quite likely the best source of weapons for races that don't do much metalsmithing of their own (gnolls, orcs, etc.), while the little dragon-dudes are called Wyrmkin.

The Kobolds remain 100% Kobold, with no dragon connection at all, while the 3.0 dragon-worshipping reptilians who have more recently taken the name Kobold become the Wyrmkin.

Love the 'cobalt' connection, 'though. That's neat, and Kobold weapons and armor might be distinctive for their dark blue-ish tint, due to the cobalt ore used in their forges!

MickJay
2009-07-26, 08:14 PM
They didn't really use cobalt, as far as I know, they just left that crap so that humans would have to deal with worthless (and often accompanied by toxic substances) metal, while they grabbed nickel and other valuable stuff beforehand. :smallbiggrin: Of course, the legends were made long before any useful (beside colouring) properties of cobalt were discovered.

SirKazum
2009-07-26, 08:58 PM
Kobolds are like the Tarrasque (didn't expect to see this phrase anytime soon, did you?) and other critters, such as the Catoblepas, in that people often do not realize that they were mythological creatures long before D&D or even fantasy literature existed. As others said above, the name "Kobold" is ethymologically related to "cobalt" (not sure which one begat the other, though), and the "original", mythological kobolds were mischievous miners who replaced other, more useful minerals with cobalt. Well, that's where the idea of kobolds first came from. If that's not what you're asking, I don't think anyone can answer you question better than a Monster Manual of your choosing, or Races of the Dragon :smalltongue:

Riffington
2009-07-26, 10:05 PM
Why not? Snakes technically have navels. Navels are where the umbilical cord (or what ever the cord that connects an embryo to the yolk sac of the egg is called) was attached.


Not quite. An embryo that develops in an egg has no attached placenta, and thus no navel. Most snakes are oviparous, and therefore have no navels. However, there exist a few snakes that are truly vivaparous: they have placentas, umbilical cords, and navels.

Dragons hatch out of eggs, as do dragon-descended kobolds. They have no navels.

ondonaflash
2009-07-26, 11:26 PM
Scroll down this page to see my thesis on Kobolds (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=57249&page=2)

The whole deal is basically "Smarter than they act". They were a specially bred groundforce for the Dragons during an ancient, ancient war.

Khatoblepas
2009-07-27, 12:18 AM
Scroll down this page to see my thesis on Kobolds (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=57249&page=2)

The whole deal is basically "Smarter than they act". They were a specially bred groundforce for the Dragons during an ancient, ancient war.

I really do like that idea for kobolds, feigning being stupid rats in order to take people by surprise in an ambush. Though, I think that acting stupid ALL the time would make the race into a race of hats, though. Surely there are some renegades that try to be intelligent once in a while? Holding back for that long would be pretty hard.

Also, saying that gnolls act like dogs kind of irked me since they're hyenamen and not dogmen. Hyenas are led by the alpha female, the females being bigger than the males, and there's a complex social structure there that's totally unique to hyenidae. Because hyenas aren't canines.
--

Personally, whenever I roleplay kobolds, I always emphasise teamwork over everything else. They're a race that really embraces the communist manifesto, and this should pervade into a lot of things. They're not greedy or backstabbing once you have them on your side... so long as you pull your weight. Of course, there are exceptions, kobolds with overt draconic traits will be more lofty and arrogant than the other members of their race - at least until they discover there are much bigger fish than them...

I love kobolds, they're so adorable and they're the underdogs of the underdogs, and they get just about the right amount of neat stuff to make me want to play one. If only every race had neat stuff like kobolds.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-27, 12:24 AM
I think I've used exactly 1 dragon (excluding an anthro-dragon race a player wanted to try out) since I started DMing (it was a young White Dragon and the fight I planned to have didn't happen thnks to the player using a Diplomacy check). Are Dragonborn really that good? I thought they looked weak unless it's a dragon-heavy game due to most of their racial features being concerned with dragons. (I can never think of anything productive to really do with them.)

I class Lupins, Phanatons and Rakastas as the 3 best races due to finding them cute (or Vulpines, Fenneckin and LA 0 Gnolls if homebrew races can be included:smalltongue:). Squires and Squirrels sounded like it would have been fun.

I agree with Khat about Gnolls as well in regards to that fluff.

Random832
2009-07-27, 07:12 AM
Not quite. An embryo that develops in an egg has no attached placenta, and thus no navel.

His point, which you missed, was that it's attached to something, even though that something is not a placenta

Deme
2009-07-27, 09:09 AM
I congradulate this thread: it has made me want to play a Kobold.

Riffington
2009-07-27, 10:03 AM
His point, which you missed, was that it's attached to something, even though that something is not a placenta

I skipped it more than missed it. A navel is not the "former site of attachment to something", or I'd have four navels in my mouth where my wisdom teeth used to be. A navel is the former site of attachment of an umbilical cord. A vivaparous snake has a navel. An oviparous snake may be attached to yolk, teeth, rattles... but not to a placenta. If you want to call some scars on its body navels by loose analogy to mammalian navels you may feel free... but they are not true navels.

John Campbell
2009-07-27, 10:32 AM
Although the entire gaming world seems to have this strange obsession with overgrown, flying lizards, WoTC takes it to the extreme, I'd say. Need to make kobolds less lame? Dragons. Need to make sorcerers unique? Dragons. Need to release a new supplement? Write some that are related to dragons. Need an interesting element of a new setting? Dragons. Need to make a new race for the new edition of their game? Dragons.

And every time they do this, they dilute the awesome a little. Before long, everyone and everything will be a dragon, and dragons won't be anything special anymore.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-27, 11:04 AM
Why not? Snakes technically have navels. Navels are where the umbilical cord (or what ever the cord that connects an embryo to the yolk sac of the egg is called) was attached.
I was all set to say you're wrong (animals in eggs do not use any such cord and therefore would have no navel), but as it turns out, live birth reptiles are not only ovoviviparous (eggs hatch within the mother, creating a live birth but not having a placenta), which is what I had thought, but there are actually some viviparous reptiles - that do have a placenta.

Whether or not Kobolds would be these, I do not know.

Yora
2009-07-27, 11:38 AM
Reptiles: Their reproduction messes with everything you know about mamals and birds. :smallamused:

DragoonWraith
2009-07-27, 01:15 PM
Reptiles in general are really bizarre, in terms of classification. They basically come down to "a vertebrate that's not a fish, amphibian, bird, or mammal," and they really don't have any distinguishing characteristics that are universally shared by reptiles and not found in other animals - most have scales (but not all do and most fish do too), most lay eggs (but not all do, and birds and fish do as well), most are cold-blooded (but there are some with basic temperature controls, plus fish are also cold-blooded), etc etc.

It largely comes from the fact that they aren't properly an entire "branch" of the tree of life. Both birds and mammals are descendants of reptiles (birds much more closely), but are not considered reptiles any longer. But birds and mammals are not descended from each other in any way; they are separate branches.

RandomNPC
2009-07-27, 06:14 PM
to whoever mentioned tuckers kobolds: if thats the link i read earlier tucker cheated.

basically what tuckers kobolds are, from my reading on the wizards boards, are: as you walk along the corridor a hatch opens in the ceiling, a flask of acid flys at you, and the hatch slams shut, take 1d4 acid damage. no you can't attack the thing that threw acid, the hatch closed already.

how would you feel about monsters that just by being in the area make you take acid damage whenever the DM feels like it.

on the other hand, look up the 2E modual Dragon mountain. It takes a dwarven stronghold complete with defences and fills it with kobolds who slaughtered the dwarves. also in the main treasury is a large angry red dragon that set up a papermache white dragon head with a cone of cold trap to make everyone think it was a white dragon. (after a dozen kobold clans with different trap styles and ambush manuvers, including rust monster riding kobolds, kobolds who net you and leap off bridges while holding the net, and kobolds with scorpions tied to sticks.)

overall i think Dragon Mountain was worth it. just look out for pit traps...