lvl 1 fighter
2009-07-26, 12:46 AM
I'm working on putting together a new campaign to be played here on the boards and I wanted to run some of the changes to the system by the experts here at homebrew.
It's 3.5 dnd in a no magic campaign world. The tone of world is very much like Iron Heroes in that it's grim and gritty. Imagine worlds like Conan, Thieves World, and The Black Company without magic. That sorta deal. The campaign will primarily be city intrigue and fast & hard combat. I tend to run human-centric games, so I envision Human as being the only race.
I'm also really captivated by the Generic Classes. I like the GURPS-like aspect of character creation using them. For the campaign I'm considering only allowed two character classes; the two being the Expert and the Warrior. By expanding the list of class features as feats players will be able to further customize their character. This also solves the problem of balancing the non-spellcasting classes (Fighter vs TOB, vs Scout, vs Knight, etc) against each other, albeit in a severe manner.
I plan on using the Class Defense Bonus from UA as well.
Making changes like this to the system raises a lot of questions.
1 - How do they get healed?
2 - What do they spend their money on?
3 - How do you fight creatures with with unique resistances and powerful supernatural or spell-like abilities?
4 - How will Reflex and Will saves remain relevant?
5 - Changes to Expert / Warrior
6 - Class Features as Feats
I think I've got some answer to a couple of those questions.
1. Healing
I'm going to use the Reserve Point system from Unearthed Arcana in addition to a new use for the Heal skill. In Star Wars SAGA there's an application of the Heal skill called Treat Wounds, IIRC. I've adapted this for the Reserve Points system. I'm using both these options now in my current PbP game.
Treat Wounds
Heal may be used to Treat Wounds. A DC 15 check allows the character to restore a number of Reserve Points equal to their check result. A character can regain Reserve Points through Treat Wounds only once per day. A character may Treat Wounds on themselves. A character may not take 10 or take 20 when using Heal to Treat Wounds. There is no penalty or adverse effects for failing a Treat Wounds check. Treating Wounds takes a full round action.
I also have an item applicable to this system, though I haven't introduced it into my current campaign yet.
Healing Herbs
This twist of dried herbs may be used to rejuvenate a character. Soaking them in water and drinking the mixture will heal 1d8+5 Reserve Points. One dose a day is harmless. However taking more than that will cause the Herbs to build up and act as a toxin in the characters system, clouding their mind and judgement. (Int and Wis penalties.)
2. Equipment/Wealth
With no expensive magical items to loot off dead enemies I don't foresee the characters becoming fabulously rich like most dnd characters do. However they will acquire wealth, either through rewards or theft. I see the world as one where you don't need fancy armor and weapons to get by. I've tinkered with some sample characters and have made combat effective characters with nothing more than two swords, or a single dagger.
The class defense bonus lends itself well to this type of game as character don't need to be constantly upgrading their armor with the most expensive magical enhancements they can afford. There is a benefit to wearing armor however. In the description of the CDB, it is not stated whether the defense bonus applies against flat-footed attacks. I am considering ruling that it does not. There's fluff reasons for it; it's part of your training as a warrior, if you're not aware of an attack then you can't defend against it, etc. But primarily it serves as the distinction between wearing armor or not.
A character without armor will have an AC of 10 when flat-footed. No dex, no armor, no bonuses from magic items, whereas an armor-wearing character would still get their armor bonus.
I like this. To me it illustrates the grimness of the world, when some gutter punk thief can sneak up on an experienced warrior and stab him in the heart. It feels a little more realistic. I'm not going for full realism in this at all, but it feels more like how things happen in those fantasy stories (Thieves World, etc).
3. Special Creatures
This campaign will be human-centric, as I said above. I think that fantasy creatures will be handled like they are in most Conan stories, i.e. they are strange, dangerous, and unique. So instead of pulling from the Monster Manual for every fight, the few times the characters go up against a Monstrous Humanoid or Outsider it'll be a plot development in itself.
4. Reflex/Will Saves
With no Fireballs or Charm Person spells the relevancy of these saves goes down. Fortitude is still important as poison will be a common element in the campaign. So how to implement these other saves?
Reflex is easier as there are other uses. Mechanical traps will be the primary use of this save, but it will also be used in avoiding damage from splash weapons such as greek fire.
Will is a little trickier. I can't think of a lot of uses for Will saves beyond resisting spells. So to keep it incorporated in the game for what it represents (someone with a tough or resilient mind and spirit), I'm considering allowing it to modify certain skills in a minor way. This is one area in particular I'd like your feedback on.
A character who selects Will as their favored save may add 1/2 their Base Will Save as a bonus to Two of the following skills. Once chosen the skills may not be changed.
- Bluff
- Diplomacy
- Disguise
- Gather Information
- Intimidate
- Sense Motive
The game will start at 9th level so a single class character could have a Base Will save of +6. This is effectively a scaling Skill Focus to two skills. I like the idea as it represents to me how a character can use their strength of will in different social situations, but I'm not totally comfortable with the current implementation. It feels too strong. As there is no other magic to further modify these abilities though, it may end up balancing out. I'm not convinced yet.
So if you can think of a way to incorporate a characters Will save into the game, or how to modify my idea, please let me know.
5. Changes to Expert / Warrior
The only change I'm considering to the two classes is to increase the skill points. Expert would get 8, Warriors 4. I'm considering this because as these are the only two PC classes, characters would be expected to know more and be able to be skilled in different areas. Personally, I've always thought warriors should have more skill points if only so they could actually be proficient in skills related to combat (Listen, Tumble, Jump, etc.)
6. Class Features as Feats
This is probably the biggest area of the game that is being customized. I've gone through the PHB, PHB II, and the 1-20 classes in Complete Warrior and Adventurer and pulled non-supernatural or spell-like class features that I think are appropriate. I took one or two from the PrC's in the DMG. In some cases they are Alternate Class Features from PHB II. I plan on going through the other lists of ACF in the other rulebooks as well. This is what I've got so far.
They are organized by source so I know where to look for each description of the class feature. Below each are the prerequisites needed to take that as a feat. Some have notes in parenthesis denoting changes from the original source.
Players Handbook
Evasion
Reflex +3
Improved Evasion
Evasion, Reflex +7
Sneak Attack +2d6
Hide 4, Move Silently 4
Advanced Sneak Attack +5d6 (total, not cumulative)
Hide 12, Move Silently 12
Trap Sense (trapfinding/trap sense)
Search 4
Uncanny Dodge
Tumble 7
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Uncanny Dodge, Tumble 11
Wild Empathy
Handle Animal 4
Players Handbook
Fast Movement +10
Balance 4
Damage Reduction 1/--
Fort +5
Improved Damage Reduction 3/--
Damge Reduction, Fort +7
Bardic Knowledge
Any Two Knowledges 4
Woodland Stride
Knowledge Nature 4
Weapon Focus
Base Attack Bonus +1
Weapon Specialization
Base Attack Bonus +4
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Focus, Base Attack Bonus +8
Greater Weapon Specialization
WF, WS, GWF, Base Attack Bonus +12
Skill Mastery
13 ranks in each skill to be selected
Opportunist
Combat Reflexes, Base Attack Bonus +7
Players Handbook II
Shield Block
Base Attack Bonus +2, Shield Proficiency
Shield Ally
Shield Block, Base Attack Bonus +6
Berserker Strength (not certain about this feature or the requirements)
Base Attack Bonus +1, Fort +2
Shield of Blades (stacks with Two Weapon Defense)
Base Attack Bonus +5, Two Weapon Fighting, Tumble 8
Complete Warrior
Staredown
Intimidate 9
Mass Staredown
Staredown, Intimidate 13
Improved Staredown
Staredown, Mass Staredown, Intimidate 17
Insightful Strike
Base Attack Bonus +3, Weapon Finesse, Balance 6, Tumble 6
Acrobatic Charge
Balance 10, Tumble 10
Complete Adventurer
Poison Use
Craft(Poison) 6, Sleight of Hand 6
Improved Poison Use
Poison Use, Craft(Poison) 12, Sleight of Hand 12
Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC
Balance 6, Tumble 6
Advanced Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC
Skirmish, Balance 10, Tumble 10
Camouflage
Uncanny Dodge, Hide 11, Move Silently 11
Hide In Plain Sight
Dodge, Mobility, Camouflage, Hide 17, Move Silenty 17
From the DMG
Death Attack (DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + Int mod)
Sneak Attack, Poison Use, Hide 12, Move Silenty 12
Canny Defense
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Balance 9, Tumble 9
Dungeonscape
Trapkiller
Base Attack Bonus +2, Survival 4
Dungeon Crasher
Improved Bull Rush, Balance 4
Advanced Dungeon Crasher
Improved Bull Rush, Base Attack Bonus +6, Balance 9
Quick Fingers
Trapfinding, Disable Device 6
Any and all feedback is welcome. If you want to test the system by building a character, the campaign will start at 9th level, 32pt buy. Show me how you would break it. :smallsmile:
It's 3.5 dnd in a no magic campaign world. The tone of world is very much like Iron Heroes in that it's grim and gritty. Imagine worlds like Conan, Thieves World, and The Black Company without magic. That sorta deal. The campaign will primarily be city intrigue and fast & hard combat. I tend to run human-centric games, so I envision Human as being the only race.
I'm also really captivated by the Generic Classes. I like the GURPS-like aspect of character creation using them. For the campaign I'm considering only allowed two character classes; the two being the Expert and the Warrior. By expanding the list of class features as feats players will be able to further customize their character. This also solves the problem of balancing the non-spellcasting classes (Fighter vs TOB, vs Scout, vs Knight, etc) against each other, albeit in a severe manner.
I plan on using the Class Defense Bonus from UA as well.
Making changes like this to the system raises a lot of questions.
1 - How do they get healed?
2 - What do they spend their money on?
3 - How do you fight creatures with with unique resistances and powerful supernatural or spell-like abilities?
4 - How will Reflex and Will saves remain relevant?
5 - Changes to Expert / Warrior
6 - Class Features as Feats
I think I've got some answer to a couple of those questions.
1. Healing
I'm going to use the Reserve Point system from Unearthed Arcana in addition to a new use for the Heal skill. In Star Wars SAGA there's an application of the Heal skill called Treat Wounds, IIRC. I've adapted this for the Reserve Points system. I'm using both these options now in my current PbP game.
Treat Wounds
Heal may be used to Treat Wounds. A DC 15 check allows the character to restore a number of Reserve Points equal to their check result. A character can regain Reserve Points through Treat Wounds only once per day. A character may Treat Wounds on themselves. A character may not take 10 or take 20 when using Heal to Treat Wounds. There is no penalty or adverse effects for failing a Treat Wounds check. Treating Wounds takes a full round action.
I also have an item applicable to this system, though I haven't introduced it into my current campaign yet.
Healing Herbs
This twist of dried herbs may be used to rejuvenate a character. Soaking them in water and drinking the mixture will heal 1d8+5 Reserve Points. One dose a day is harmless. However taking more than that will cause the Herbs to build up and act as a toxin in the characters system, clouding their mind and judgement. (Int and Wis penalties.)
2. Equipment/Wealth
With no expensive magical items to loot off dead enemies I don't foresee the characters becoming fabulously rich like most dnd characters do. However they will acquire wealth, either through rewards or theft. I see the world as one where you don't need fancy armor and weapons to get by. I've tinkered with some sample characters and have made combat effective characters with nothing more than two swords, or a single dagger.
The class defense bonus lends itself well to this type of game as character don't need to be constantly upgrading their armor with the most expensive magical enhancements they can afford. There is a benefit to wearing armor however. In the description of the CDB, it is not stated whether the defense bonus applies against flat-footed attacks. I am considering ruling that it does not. There's fluff reasons for it; it's part of your training as a warrior, if you're not aware of an attack then you can't defend against it, etc. But primarily it serves as the distinction between wearing armor or not.
A character without armor will have an AC of 10 when flat-footed. No dex, no armor, no bonuses from magic items, whereas an armor-wearing character would still get their armor bonus.
I like this. To me it illustrates the grimness of the world, when some gutter punk thief can sneak up on an experienced warrior and stab him in the heart. It feels a little more realistic. I'm not going for full realism in this at all, but it feels more like how things happen in those fantasy stories (Thieves World, etc).
3. Special Creatures
This campaign will be human-centric, as I said above. I think that fantasy creatures will be handled like they are in most Conan stories, i.e. they are strange, dangerous, and unique. So instead of pulling from the Monster Manual for every fight, the few times the characters go up against a Monstrous Humanoid or Outsider it'll be a plot development in itself.
4. Reflex/Will Saves
With no Fireballs or Charm Person spells the relevancy of these saves goes down. Fortitude is still important as poison will be a common element in the campaign. So how to implement these other saves?
Reflex is easier as there are other uses. Mechanical traps will be the primary use of this save, but it will also be used in avoiding damage from splash weapons such as greek fire.
Will is a little trickier. I can't think of a lot of uses for Will saves beyond resisting spells. So to keep it incorporated in the game for what it represents (someone with a tough or resilient mind and spirit), I'm considering allowing it to modify certain skills in a minor way. This is one area in particular I'd like your feedback on.
A character who selects Will as their favored save may add 1/2 their Base Will Save as a bonus to Two of the following skills. Once chosen the skills may not be changed.
- Bluff
- Diplomacy
- Disguise
- Gather Information
- Intimidate
- Sense Motive
The game will start at 9th level so a single class character could have a Base Will save of +6. This is effectively a scaling Skill Focus to two skills. I like the idea as it represents to me how a character can use their strength of will in different social situations, but I'm not totally comfortable with the current implementation. It feels too strong. As there is no other magic to further modify these abilities though, it may end up balancing out. I'm not convinced yet.
So if you can think of a way to incorporate a characters Will save into the game, or how to modify my idea, please let me know.
5. Changes to Expert / Warrior
The only change I'm considering to the two classes is to increase the skill points. Expert would get 8, Warriors 4. I'm considering this because as these are the only two PC classes, characters would be expected to know more and be able to be skilled in different areas. Personally, I've always thought warriors should have more skill points if only so they could actually be proficient in skills related to combat (Listen, Tumble, Jump, etc.)
6. Class Features as Feats
This is probably the biggest area of the game that is being customized. I've gone through the PHB, PHB II, and the 1-20 classes in Complete Warrior and Adventurer and pulled non-supernatural or spell-like class features that I think are appropriate. I took one or two from the PrC's in the DMG. In some cases they are Alternate Class Features from PHB II. I plan on going through the other lists of ACF in the other rulebooks as well. This is what I've got so far.
They are organized by source so I know where to look for each description of the class feature. Below each are the prerequisites needed to take that as a feat. Some have notes in parenthesis denoting changes from the original source.
Players Handbook
Evasion
Reflex +3
Improved Evasion
Evasion, Reflex +7
Sneak Attack +2d6
Hide 4, Move Silently 4
Advanced Sneak Attack +5d6 (total, not cumulative)
Hide 12, Move Silently 12
Trap Sense (trapfinding/trap sense)
Search 4
Uncanny Dodge
Tumble 7
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Uncanny Dodge, Tumble 11
Wild Empathy
Handle Animal 4
Players Handbook
Fast Movement +10
Balance 4
Damage Reduction 1/--
Fort +5
Improved Damage Reduction 3/--
Damge Reduction, Fort +7
Bardic Knowledge
Any Two Knowledges 4
Woodland Stride
Knowledge Nature 4
Weapon Focus
Base Attack Bonus +1
Weapon Specialization
Base Attack Bonus +4
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Focus, Base Attack Bonus +8
Greater Weapon Specialization
WF, WS, GWF, Base Attack Bonus +12
Skill Mastery
13 ranks in each skill to be selected
Opportunist
Combat Reflexes, Base Attack Bonus +7
Players Handbook II
Shield Block
Base Attack Bonus +2, Shield Proficiency
Shield Ally
Shield Block, Base Attack Bonus +6
Berserker Strength (not certain about this feature or the requirements)
Base Attack Bonus +1, Fort +2
Shield of Blades (stacks with Two Weapon Defense)
Base Attack Bonus +5, Two Weapon Fighting, Tumble 8
Complete Warrior
Staredown
Intimidate 9
Mass Staredown
Staredown, Intimidate 13
Improved Staredown
Staredown, Mass Staredown, Intimidate 17
Insightful Strike
Base Attack Bonus +3, Weapon Finesse, Balance 6, Tumble 6
Acrobatic Charge
Balance 10, Tumble 10
Complete Adventurer
Poison Use
Craft(Poison) 6, Sleight of Hand 6
Improved Poison Use
Poison Use, Craft(Poison) 12, Sleight of Hand 12
Skirmish +1d6/+1 AC
Balance 6, Tumble 6
Advanced Skirmish +3d6/+2 AC
Skirmish, Balance 10, Tumble 10
Camouflage
Uncanny Dodge, Hide 11, Move Silently 11
Hide In Plain Sight
Dodge, Mobility, Camouflage, Hide 17, Move Silenty 17
From the DMG
Death Attack (DC 10 + 1/2 lvl + Int mod)
Sneak Attack, Poison Use, Hide 12, Move Silenty 12
Canny Defense
Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Balance 9, Tumble 9
Dungeonscape
Trapkiller
Base Attack Bonus +2, Survival 4
Dungeon Crasher
Improved Bull Rush, Balance 4
Advanced Dungeon Crasher
Improved Bull Rush, Base Attack Bonus +6, Balance 9
Quick Fingers
Trapfinding, Disable Device 6
Any and all feedback is welcome. If you want to test the system by building a character, the campaign will start at 9th level, 32pt buy. Show me how you would break it. :smallsmile: