[3.5] Can you counter-"spell" psionic powers?

[ghost_warlock]

I'm at work and away from my books, and I can't find anything about it in the SRD. Can psionic characters counterpsi(?) each others' powers?

The question came up during a discussion on skills and what they're used for. It seems to us that knowledge (psionics) and psicraft are sort of splitting hairs over where one applies an the othere doesn't; wondering why these are really seperate skills other than giving psionic characters something else to blow skill points on. (We wonder the same thing about knowledge-arcana/spellcraft and knowledge-nature/survival but those are seperate issues.)

After all, why does the knowledge skill apply to everything psionics-related except the identification of currently active powers?

For that matter, when you make a knowledge check to identify a psionic creature, and it has psi-like abilities, how do you handle that? The check should tell you about it's capabilities, which I'd think would generally mean it's psi-like abilities in addition to other stuff. So, then, you'd know that it can use, say, energy ray but you'd then have to make a psicraft check to identify that ability when it's actually used, or would your (previous) knowledge check have already conveyed enough information for you to figure that out without an additional check?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Under Magic-Psionics transpariency:

Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, there is no such thing as counterspelling in psionics. Note that dispelling =/= counterspelling, thus Dispel Psionics has no counterspell mode, and Dispel Magic can be used to dispel psionic powers, but not to counterspell them.

[Devils_Advocate]

There's a huge difference between knowing what a program does and being able to understand its source code. Spellcraft and Psicraft represent working with magic and psionics at a code level.

The weird thing is that arcane and divine magic use the same coding skill and the same schools, but psionics has a separate skill and a different list of disciplines of its own. You could easily combine Psicraft with Spellcraft, and UPD with UMD, and many of the psionic and magic item creation feats.

[Talic]

Psi/Magic transparency would indicate that you could use Dispel Magic and its ilk to counter a Psionic power.

However, in order to counter one spell with another, it needs to be the exact same spell. Not just "functionally equivalent".

So you couldn't use "True Seeing" to counter "True Seeing, Psionic".

[quick_comment]

It would be neat if psions could counterpower each other.

I think a point for point reduction in augmentation would be reasonable. Scaling augmentations only.

So if I augment an energy stun power by 4 points, you could unaugment it by 4 points.

[Doc Roc]

Quick, that's a cool mechanic. Flesh it out more and I'll steal it! :)

Some encouragement, right?

[AstralFire]

I would let counterspelling sorcerers with that feat that lets you use any spell to counterspell get away with it, though.

Also, that source code analogy is incredibly geeky but a good way to look at transparency. Wish I'd thought of it. And yes, with transparency, I don't understand a need for separate UMD/UPD and Psi/Spellcraft. I wish psionics had been built in earlier, though - part of 3e's strengths/weaknesses is diversity of mechanic, and I would have liked to see non-transparency.

[quick_comment]

Ok, how about this:

As an immediate action, a character with power points can attempt to counterpower a psionic power. First, he must identify the power with a psicraft check.

He can spend a number of power points up to his manifester level. For every two points he spends, subtract one power point from the augmentation of the targeted power. You cannot remove casting time augmentations in this manner.


And some additional feats for good measure:


Powerful Manifester
Requirements: Manifester Level 9th, Overchannel
Benefits: After someone counterpowers your power, you may spend more power points on the power to reaugment it. As usual, you cannot spend more pp than your ML on a power. Example: A 14th level manifester uses a power and spends a total of 10 pp on it. He is counter powered for 6 pp. He could then spend another 4 pp to augment the power further.
Normal: After being counterpowered you have no opportunity to reaugment the power.

Unstoppable Manifestation[Epic]
Requirements: Improved Manifester, Powerful Manifester
Benefits: When you reaugment a power with powerful manifester, you can augment it up to your ML cap, regardless of how many pp were counter powered. Example: A 23rd level manifester uses a power for 20 pp. He is counterpowered for 10 pp. He may then spend up to 13 pp to augment the power up to its full strength.
Normal: With powerful manifester, you can only spend up to your ML on a power. (In the above example, the manifester would only be able to spend 3 more pp on a power)

Advanced Counterpsi
Requirements: Manifester level 11th
Benefits: When you counterpsi a power, you may spend up to your manifester level +2.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times.

Expert Nullifier
Requirements: Advanced Counterpsi
Benefits: When you counterpsi a power, you regain half the pp spent on negating it (rounded down).

Effortless Manifesting [Epic]
Requirements: Improved Manifester
Benefits: When someone attempts to counterpsi your powers, they must spend an additional 8pp to even attempt it. This counts towards their expenditure cap.

[Moriato]

The problem with counterspelling psionics is how do you know when to do it? Powers have no verbal, or somatic components, each one of them is the equivalent of a still,silent spell. They do have a "display" but everything I've seen indicates that the display happens when the power goes off, and by then it's too late to counterspell. You can also dispense with the display completely with a dc 15+power level concentration check anyway.

Can you still counterspell if you can't see the spell being cast?

[PId6]

Can you still counterspell if you can't see the spell being cast?
IIRC you have to identify the spell with a Spellcraft check. Normally you have to see the somatic or hear the verbal components to do that, but you automatically get a Spellcraft check against all spells cast around you if you have a Ring of Spell Battle. With that, you should be able to counterspell a Stilled Silent spell.

[Person_Man]

For what it's worth, when I homebrewed a psionic Jedi class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92407), I included the ability to counter or reduce a power if you knew it. I also have no mechanical distinction in my games between magic and psioncs (or incarnum or binding or truespeech), and allow players to counter one with the other.

[Devils_Advocate]

However, in order to counter one spell with another, it needs to be the exact same spell. Not just "functionally equivalent".

So you couldn't use "True Seeing" to counter "True Seeing, Psionic".
Well... in that case, one is personal-range and the other is touch-range. But psionic grease and grease, for example, are exactly the same. Saying that they aren't because they have different names is silly. And saying that they're different because one has a display and the other has components is like saying that a wizard's and a cleric's darkness aren't the same because one uses a material component and the other uses a divine focus.


that source code analogy is incredibly geeky
Thank you. :smalltongue: Though, really, is it possible to analyze D&D's rules in a non-geeky fashion? That would be like swimming without getting wet.


The problem with counterspelling psionics is how do you know when to do it? Powers have no verbal, or somatic components, each one of them is the equivalent of a still,silent spell. They do have a "display" but everything I've seen indicates that the display happens when the power goes off, and by then it's too late to counterspell.You can also dispense with the display completely with a dc 15+power level concentration check anyway.
So, if you want to make it possible to counterspell psionics, just house-rule that the display happens immediately before the manifestation instead. :smallsmile: And if you want to make it easier to counterspell or just detect manifestations, make hiding displays harder.

[Lord Vukodlak]

No, you can't, magic-psionics transparency has numerous effects, counterspelling isn't one of them.
First off a spell can usually only be countered by its self.
Fireball vs fireball, finger of death vs finger of death.
Explain to me how you counter, energyball or psionic dominate?(which has vastly different effects then dominate person or monster).
The two systems don't share enough powers/spells effects for countering to work.
With improved counterspelling you have the problem that there are eight schools of magic plus universal and only six psionic Disciplines one of which has no magic equivalent


A psionic power cannot be used as a counterspell, nor is it subject to counterspells.

A counterspell involves recognizing a spell as it is being cast, then quickly altering that same spell so as to create an opposite effect that cancels out the original spell. A psionic power taps the manifester's mental energy in a process unlike any spell. (Many powers have results similar to certain spells, but they achieve those results through different means.)

As noted earlier, most psionic powers are subject to dispelling (unless their descriptions say they are not). When a psionic power can be dispelled (as most of them are), one can effectively counter them with a dispel magic spell (or the dispel psionics power). While psionic powers are not normally subject to counterspells, dispel magic is not really a counterspell. When you use dispel magic as a counterspell, what you're really doing is quickly casting a targeted dispel effect at the correct moment to negate the enemy spell and not creating an opposite magical effect that cancels your enemy's spell.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060613a

For me here is how you really counterspell,
don't ready an action to hit the spell, ready an action to hit the caster.
Like say with disintegrate.