Class based systems

[Starsinger]

Are there any good class based systems out there besides D&D? My group and I are looking for something to try, and one of the players can't stand classless systems. Preferably something without too much rules kludge (I consider 3.5 to be the line, anything more is too kludgey).

Thanks in advance

[Morty]

Both editions of Warhammer Fantasy RPG can be considered class based - except there's a lot of classes and you switch them often - and they're rather rules-light and easy to learn. Whether or not they're good is up to the players.

[jmbrown]

Since you're already familiar with DnD then you can easily make the transition to any D20 game. Pathfinder is coming out soon which is said to fix the problems with 3.5. You have DnD 4E which is different enough to feel new but still familiar enough that you aren't spending entire sessions flipping through the book. Star Wars Saga Edition is relatively new and quite popular.

I honestly can't think of many class based systems outside of D20. Warhammer uses a career system which is more open ended than straight up classes and every other RPG I have use point buy systems but include generic "templates" (or classes) that you can modify if you don't like building a character from the ground up.

[ZeroNumerous]

BESM d20? It's a mix of class-based and classless. Not as good as BESM Tri-Stat but still less rule intensive than D&D.

[Raltar]

Star Wars Saga Edition.

[Starsinger]

I was sort of hoping to break away from d20

[Lert, A.]

Rifts! :smalltongue:

[valadil]

GURPs is classless by default, but the Dungeon Adventure module does a good job of adding in both races and classes. Basically each class is a set of skills and abilities that costs a predetermined amount of points.

[Oslecamo]

I was sort of hoping to break away from d20

Good luck with that then. As far as I know nond20 RPGs all intended to get away from D&D basics and thus they're all classless.

Many of them however offer class templates, aka-pre built characters where all the point-buy decisions are already made for you, and tagged with a name. Don't know if that's enough for your friend who likes classes.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You may wish to consider White Wolf's NWoD. While they call them archetypes rather than Classes, it amounts to about the same thing...

[AstralFire]

While NWoD is fairly low on rules, I really cannot in good faith recommend it on any mechanical basis whatsoever. I did some study of it and I just found the system's rules awkward and unintuitive while also being oversimplified when it comes to the strength of your results and character customization - sort of the worst of both worlds. To be fair, I did not actually play the game, except running some self scenarios.

[HamHam]

Decipher's Lord of the Rings is pretty interesting. Has classes. Is not d20.

[erikun]

I think that if you're limited to a strict "class" system, you're going to be quite limited in your RPG system choices. Most class-and-level-up systems are based on D&D, after all. The reason that almost all video game RPGs have the same system is because early RPGs were based on D&D, too. :smalltongue:

Shadowrun 3rd edition had a psudo-class system, from what I recall. You picked your race, class, wealth, etc. from a priority ranking, and your starting skills were based on your class. There wasn't a level-up system from there, though, and you were free to expand however you wanted to after character creation. Shadowrun 4th edition scrapped this, as your "class" is based on whatever abilities you pickup at creation, so to speak.

Old World of Darkness (Vampire: the Masquerade) had various clans, with each having a specific weakness and skills they were good at - mechanically, this made them cheaper to pick up. There was nothing stopping them from picking up other skills, but the cost more to do so. New World of Darkness (Vampire: the Requiem) has both clans and orders, with which skills you are good at depending on both... sort of.

Burning Wheel has a Lifepath character creation, where the options you choose at character creation (where you were born, what you did, where you went) determine both mandatory starting skills, and which optional skills you can pick up.

That's about all I can think of that could be considered "class based" systems.

[Cainen]

Shadowrun 3rd edition had a psudo-class system, from what I recall.

Not in the least. Cyberpunk 2020 did.

[Grynning]

Rifts! :smalltongue:

Rifts is actually not as bad of a game as a lot of people say it is, though I will admit that the rules system has been in need of an overhaul for a while, and it requires a careful and strict GM to stay balanced at all. Rifts (and Palladium fantasy) are very heavily class based, and there are no real rules for multiclassing; your class is pretty much your entire mechanical character, but there are tons and tons of classes (every book has about a dozen). There's a lot of overlap in roles of course, but each class represents something very specific rather than a general archetype; a Ley Line Walker (generalist wizard) is a lot different in flavor than a Shifter (summoner/dimensional type wizard) or a Mystic (psychic/spellcaster combo) or whatever.

I actually do recommend Palladium's fantasy game; it's much better balanced than Rifts for the most part and has a pretty darn cool setting and story.

Heroes Unlimited is Palladium's other big one, it doesn't really use classes but rather a building block style of background skills, power source and power choice, but it's definitely no new school point buy system. It has a lot of the same balance problems as Rifts though; you really have to set a lot of house rules for campaigns so that you don't end up with a world smashing powerhouse and a completely human and fragile film noir detective in the same group.

[bosssmiley]

Rifts! :smalltongue:

MOAR LASERS!!! (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2009/01/transcript-from-rpg-world-congress.html) :smallbiggrin:

Palladium Fantasy is supposed to be quite good for a class-based system. Although IIRC it has no Spot/Listen mechanics at all.

Rolemaster and its neckbearded, Sindarin-babbling offspring MERP are also class-based.

@vv & vvvv: Echo ... echo ... echo ...

[mistformsquirrl]

Not in the least. Cyberpunk 2020 did.

I think what they mean is that it's very rare to encounter someone who is more than one archetype.

That is:

Rigger, Decker, Mage, Street Samurai, Physical Adept

It's not that theoretically you can't overlap them or create a character who doesn't fit a neat definiton; but quite often you do. Even when going for a more hybridized character (like a rigger or decker with some combat cyberware) - you usually get referred to as a "Combat Rigger" or "Combat Decker" (ie: you still are a rigger or decker, you just happen to be able to fight better than average, at the cost of some other ability. Kinda like multiclassing I guess)

So... SR3 is definitely a classless system yes - but it's fairly easy to percieve as a class-based system just the same since it's pretty easy to define characters by role. More so than other classless systems.

(err, that's a long way of me saying "I see where he's coming from even if it's not technically correct")

[Halaster]

Easy answer: Rolemaster. Very much class based, but allowing more leeway than d20, by offering relatively few class-exclusive abilities, working instead with weighted skill costs (e. g. warriors get weapon skills cheap, stealth not so cheap, spell skills very expensive) Not exactly rules-light, but once you get the basic system, all rules branch off from that and are easy to learn.
Possible downsides:
- Way more deadly than d20
- many tables
- could be hard to come by (at least the pinnacle of the game, the Standard System)
- quite a few books to buy (Standard Rules, Arms Law, Spell Law, Creatures & Monsters, Treasure Companion would be recommendation)

Possible upsides:
- Way more deadly than d20
- lots of options to customize characters (many races and classes, skill points really matter, talents and flaws)
- extensive magic system, including magical item creation, spell research etc.

[Divinech]

I know of The Dark Eye.
Very popular in Germany. Never played it myself but there recently came out a PC game ("Drakensang") which is based on the RPG. It's very different to D&D and seems nice.

[valadil]

Easy answer: Rolemaster.

Or for Rolemaster lite, try Middle Earth Role Playing - aka MERP.

[LibraryOgre]

MOAR LASERS!!! (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2009/01/transcript-from-rpg-world-congress.html) :smallbiggrin:

Palladium Fantasy is supposed to be quite good for a class-based system. Although IIRC it has no Spot/Listen mechanics at all.


The "Perception" mechanic was developed for Nightbane, which came out a little bit after PFRPG2nd edition, but works just fine... it's essentially d20 v. target number.

I have some alternate perception mechanics on the Cranky Gamer, under the title "Pimp my Skill Monkey." Those mechanics work better with the skill rules.

However, I would also suggest Palladium. While there's a lot of extra stuff associated with it, it's a very simple system at heart (opposed d20+bonuses in combat, roll-under d% for skills), which does the class-and-level thing pretty solidly.

Oh, and they have a new book on magic (http://www.palladiumbooks.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1001&Product_Code=472) coming out. I understand that it is made of pure win, and that the author is both awesome and sexy. :smallbiggrin:

[Halaster]

I know of The Dark Eye.
Very popular in Germany. Never played it myself but there recently came out a PC game ("Drakensang") which is based on the RPG. It's very different to D&D and seems nice.

Used to be great. Played it for years. It had a very different feel from D&D, more low-key. Still heroic, but with less powerful characters and over-the-top challenges.

Well, they changed it, and now it sucks. It is no longer really class-based, rather you buy your character with points, including points for a career package, that is not comparable with a class. Feels like GURPS. The old, easy and fast combat system has been replaced with a mass of unwieldy rules that feel like D&D 3.0, only without any streamlining. The list goes on and on, it looks the designers read a number of games and said: "Hey, we like that mechaniss, let's make a totally clunky and useless version of it for our new game."

But I don't now if the 4th Edition was ever translated to English. I know they tried it with the second edition (there is a reeeaaally old computer game of that, a classic), and probably the third. That one's the best, with a few flaws, but many more merits.

[JMobius]

You may wish to consider White Wolf's NWoD. While they call them archetypes rather than Classes, it amounts to about the same thing...

nWoD is almost as far from having classes as you can get. Almost.

If I might ask the OP, what exactly is the one player's complaint about classless systems?

[Tengu_temp]

How about Earthdawn? An awesome heroic fantasy game set in an exotic, mythical and mysterious setting, with pretty high magic level (most adventurers are Adepts, who use magical Talents to improve their abilities, minor magic items are common even in small villages). It's so class- and level-based that they even exist in the setting, not just in the rules! But don't worry, they're well-established and sensible, instead of being fourth wall-breaking and jarring.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Easy answer: Rolemaster. Very much class based, but allowing more leeway than d20, by offering relatively few class-exclusive abilities, working instead with weighted skill costs (e. g. warriors get weapon skills cheap, stealth not so cheap, spell skills very expensive) Not exactly rules-light, but once you get the basic system, all rules branch off from that and are easy to learn.
Possible downsides:
- Way more deadly than d20
- many tables
- could be hard to come by (at least the pinnacle of the game, the Standard System)
- quite a few books to buy (Standard Rules, Arms Law, Spell Law, Creatures & Monsters, Treasure Companion would be recommendation)

Possible upsides:
- Way more deadly than d20
- lots of options to customize characters (many races and classes, skill points really matter, talents and flaws)
- extensive magic system, including magical item creation, spell research etc.

I second this endorsement of Rolemaster, but if you're going for it, I'd advise "Rolemaster 2" (recently re-released as "Rolemaster Classic") over RMSS or RMFRP. To my mind that's the best version, especially since you say you don't want too much "rules kludge".

[Halaster]

Definitely anything but RMFRP, but why Classic? I never got to play it, but if I remember right it had umpteen sourcebooks, each bringing new classes and rules, making the whole thing a real mess. Or am I confused and that is Rolemaster 1st Edition?