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PrGo
2009-07-26, 05:34 PM
The title says it. I'm making a guy that will have such massive strength that I'm not sure it's fun anymore :smalltongue:
Anyways, this is how:
Base strength 18
+6 Lolth-touched template
+14 Werewolf Lord template
+4 Warshaper
+4 Beserker Strength (rage variant from PHB 2) Replaced by normal rage which I won't count into this since it's only for a few rounds.
+6 Belt of Giant Strength.

I know this could be boosted even more, but I'd like to hear your opinions on having such a player from a party member/DM perspective.

Thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

Voldecanter
2009-07-26, 05:36 PM
Has your DM approved this ? Is this an Epic Level Game ?

Quietus
2009-07-26, 05:37 PM
It's worth noting that your HP will suffer, badly, as a result of templates. Also, animal HD.

SoD
2009-07-26, 05:37 PM
Well, you're pretty much railroading yourself into a specific character. Lolth-touched turns you CE, as does werewolf lord, not to mention the HD and LA. Beserker Strength doesn't kick in until you're below a certain amount of HP, so you'd be walking around wounded, and the belt of giant strength can't be afforded until later levels anyway. And why not go Ogre for another +10 strength? Give yourself 52 strength at level 1, yeah. That's cheesy.

kpenguin
2009-07-26, 05:38 PM
And cue "Generic Optimizing Wiz" with his "Stength over 9000" build.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-26, 05:38 PM
The title says it. I'm making a guy that will have such massive strength that I'm not sure it's fun anymore :smalltongue:
Anyways, this is how:
Base strength 18
+6 Lolth-touched template
+14 Werewolf Lord template
+4 Warshaper
+4 Beserker Strength (rage variant from PHB 2)
+6 Belt of Giant Strength.

I know this could be boosted even more, but I'd like to hear your opinions on having such a player from a party member/DM perspective.

Thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

Not really cheesy, per se, just using a bunch of sources for lots of strength.
Oh, and to increase it more, consider the strength version of the Shifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116875) for as many levels as possible.

golentan
2009-07-26, 05:40 PM
These characters can be fun, yeah. Depends on the game, but the increased strength to hit and damage can make you quite effective even occasionally compared to casters, and the awesomeness of picking up a ship and slinging it over your shoulder until you get to the next ocean cannot be overrated (I've done that occasionally, the dumbfounded looks of the other players are AWESOME). Bear in mind your version is almost all temporary boosts.

Mongoose87
2009-07-26, 05:45 PM
I hope you're taking Improved Toughness, and buying a CON booster.

jmbrown
2009-07-26, 05:45 PM
Cheesy? No. Your level adjustment is disgusting. You'll crush enemies in melee for one or two levels and then GAZE ATTACK SAVE-OR-DIE CHARM SLEEP FEAR DOMINATION PHANTASMAL KILLER etc. etc.

HolderofSecrets
2009-07-26, 05:45 PM
Your level adjustment is going to be horrid. You will be missing Hit points and saves from all those levels you gave up. You may get +21 to hit but for CRs of the level the character would be for will take this guy down in an instant. In D&D having high strength means little or nothing towards killing monsters when Feats and spells will render your character useless compared to a properly built character.

Some advice when you come here in the future wanting advice.

1. Bring your DMs build Rules.
2. Come here with more then just a stat of templates and class abilities. A full build by your DMs creation rules is preferred.

Spiryt
2009-07-26, 05:46 PM
What is the cost (levels or whatever) of this templates anyway?

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 05:51 PM
It can look cheesy if people aren't used to high-level magic. But alone the spell "Giant Size" gives +32 Str when used on high caster level, untyped to boot. Bite of the Werebear is also +12. But Lolth-Touched is a pretty strong template. Werewolf Lord...well, you'll be hurting with that.

But yah, it has impressive Str but with Werewolf Lord's LA, it's gonna be all necessary to make up for your lack of BAB.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-26, 05:51 PM
That's nothing. I managed 50 str, without any templates, a 0 LA race, and no magic items. It did require lv. 14... But your build is looking at more than that anyway, and MINE had class levels, and a load of other nifty abilities.

tyckspoon
2009-07-26, 05:52 PM
Les'see.. you have 6 animal HD, at least one level of Barbarian, and +3/+4 LA depending on whether you make it a Natural or Afflicted lycanthrope. ECL 10/11 before you put Warshaper levels in, at least ECL 11/12 with Warshaper (I'm not sure how many levels you need to get that particular Strength buff.) I'd say 52 Strength is a little cheesy for that level, but not too bad- any potent melee build will be matured by that point as well, and probably capable of putting out similar or superior levels of damage. It's not a character that really should be played, anyway; being a werewolf and deliberately using the hybrid/animal form to get the stat boosts forces you to be a murderous lunatic. It'd be like having a Frenzied Berserker around but without the easy control tools.

Deepblue706
2009-07-26, 05:58 PM
Wow. That LA would make the character hard to manage.

But, as far as 52 STR goes...maybe, maybe not. STR is useless unless you can apply it; so, unless you have a Mighty+21 Composite Longbow, or can always reach your foes in melee, it's really not that much to worry about. Sure, you can lift tractors. Sure, you probably have a fair chance of swimming up a waterfall. But, at the levels where strength like this can be managed, warrior classes can already deal more than enough damage, given the opportunity to make their attacks. The problem is getting into position, and resisting attacks that will incapacitate you. Foes designed to be hard to reach and capable of delivering their own mega-hits are still going to be hard to defeat, regardless.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-26, 06:04 PM
You can get equal strength with fewer templates.

Lolth-Touched Orc Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 3/Bear Warrior 2/Werebear 6 gives Frenzy and Bear Rage for +6/6 or a total of +12. Base 18+16 while shaped and a +6 item gives you 52. And my HP doesn't suck since I have 6d8+11d12+CON.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-26, 06:12 PM
Les'see.. you have 6 animal HD, at least one level of Barbarian, and +3/+4 LA depending on whether you make it a Natural or Afflicted lycanthrope. ECL 10/11 before you put Warshaper levels in, at least ECL 11/12 with Warshaper (I'm not sure how many levels you need to get that particular Strength buff.) I'd say 52 Strength is a little cheesy for that level, but not too bad- any potent melee build will be matured by that point as well, and probably capable of putting out similar or superior levels of damage. It's not a character that really should be played, anyway; being a werewolf and deliberately using the hybrid/animal form to get the stat boosts forces you to be a murderous lunatic. It'd be like having a Frenzied Berserker around but without the easy control tools.

Ah, ah, ah. 6 animal HD, +2/+3 LA depending on the lycanthrope nature. You need two levels to get the str boost from warshaper, and Lolth-touched is a +1 LA, then at least one more level for the rage, so, ECL 12-13. With only +6 BAB. Then there's the fact you have to be under half health all the time, have almost 0 class features, and had to buy yourself a +6 item. I wouldn't play that, honestly. The only thing it's got going for it is strength.

Alleine
2009-07-26, 06:14 PM
I'm going to join the chorus of "it will not be worth it".

At ECL 12, assuming an afflicted lycanthrope, you'll have 6 animal HD(which suck compared to class levels), one level of Barbarian, and two levels of Warshaper in order to grab the strength boost. You'll permanently be three levels behind everyone due to LA buyback rules not counting animal HD towards buyback purposes.

In addition to this, you won't be getting that measly +4 str bonus from your berserker strength variant since that requires you to have a maximum 5 x your barbarian level in health to activate. At ECL 12, this means you need to have 5 health. Good luck surviving. You will be a glass cannon. A glass cannon that can be taken down by a lucky peasant. Or a 10 ft drop.

Assuming you also manage to dodge the alignment restrictions of both Lloth-touched and Werewolf Lord by being in an evil party where the alignment "Murderous bastard" is ok or your DM handwaves it, you're still at a significant disadvantage. You will have strength, but that is all you will have. You'll have nice damage if you focus on two-hand power attacking, but I sincerely doubt you'll survive very long to see it get use.

If you REALLY want high str there are other, cheaper, ways to do it that don't involve forced alignment changes and crippling HD/LA.

To truly answer your question: No. All by itself, 52 str is not cheesy. You can singlehandedly carry all the party loot, force open lots of doors(that could be opened with low level spells), grapple pretty decently, and hit hard. If you couple high str with ubercharge builds, then yes it will be broken, but I don't really see that happening here. If you make a hulking hurler build, that will also be broken, but again I don't see that happening here and your DM will simply look at you and say 'no' anyways.

If you play it well, it can be tons of fun. Broken, it isn't.

RTGoodman
2009-07-26, 06:30 PM
Heck, if you just want Str, be a Lolth-Touched (LA +1) Half-Ogre (LA +2) Barbarian 4/Fighter 1/War Hulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) 10. That'll get you a Str of:

18 (Base)
+6 (racial)
+6 (Lolth-Touched)
+4 (when Raging)
+16 (War Hulk)
+6 (Belt)

For a grand total of Str 56 at ECL 18, going up by two for each of the last two levels of War Hulk. And you can partially buy off that +3 LA pre-epic, and not to mention you've got at least 14d12 + 1d10 + [Con mod x 13] HP.


EDIT @\/: Ah, yeah, I forgot about the LA +1 Half-Minotaur. That's definitely a better (albeit cheesier) way to go about it. It's Dragon material, though, right? Might not be allowed in a lot of games.

The Gilded Duke
2009-07-26, 06:40 PM
Half Minotaur Orc
+1 Level Adjustment +12 Strength, +6 Con, +4 Na, -2 Dex, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, Large Size 40 foot move Gore, Scent, some skill bonuses

Then go Lion Totem Barbarian /War Hulk/ Frenzied Berserker

Also, with any such build: Enjoy the Ego Whips.

Doc Roc
2009-07-26, 06:41 PM
It's not really all that cheesy, not the way you're getting it.
People just get alarmed when numbers cross the fingers-and-toes barrier.



Mmmmm Tasty-Tasty Ego Whips and Splitting+Wounding...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-26, 06:41 PM
And cue "Generic Optimizing Wiz" with his "Stength over 9000" build.

Cancer Mage.

Berserk Monk
2009-07-26, 06:42 PM
The title says it. I'm making a guy that will have such massive strength that I'm not sure it's fun anymore :smalltongue:
Anyways, this is how:
Base strength 18
+6 Lolth-touched template
+14 Werewolf Lord template
+4 Warshaper
+4 Beserker Strength (rage variant from PHB 2)
+6 Belt of Giant Strength.

I know this could be boosted even more, but I'd like to hear your opinions on having such a player from a party member/DM perspective.

Thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

Could you tell me what book lolth template is in? Also, being a munchkin is never cheesy.

Doc Roc
2009-07-26, 06:42 PM
Worth noting:
Cancer Mage?
Yeah, not actually a mage at all.

Mando Knight
2009-07-26, 06:44 PM
Half Minotaur Orc
+1 Level Adjustment +12 Strength, +6 Con, +4 Na, -2 Dex, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, Large Size 40 foot move Gore, Scent, some skill bonuses

Then go Lion Totem Barbarian /War Hulk/ Frenzied Berserker

Also, with any such build: Enjoy the Ego Whips.

You sure this is a +1 LA combination? Or does it get Racial HD to compensate? :smallconfused: (I do not have whatever book Half-Minotaur is in, though...)

Gaiyamato
2009-07-26, 06:44 PM
You can get equal strength with fewer templates.

Lolth-Touched Orc Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 3/Bear Warrior 2/Werebear 6 gives Whirling Frenzy, Frenzy and Bear Rage for +4/6/6 or a total of +16. Base 18+16 while shaped and a +6 item gives you 56. And my HP doesn't suck since I have 6d8+11d12+CON.

All of those Rage/Frenzies don't stack with each other. Says so under Whirling Frenzy and Frenzied Berseker.
I'm more interested on how to get this sort of CON without any magic items and not too much LA. Or INT..

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-26, 06:47 PM
All of those Rage/Frenzies don't stack with each other. Says so under Whirling Frenzy and Frenzied Berseker.

Frenzy explicitly stacks with other rages. The only two that are incompatible are Bear Rage and Whirling Frenzy, which was my bad.

tyckspoon
2009-07-26, 06:50 PM
You sure this is a +1 LA combination? Or does it get Racial HD to compensate? :smallconfused: (I do not have whatever book Half-Minotaur is in, though...)

It's one of the things that gave Dragon Magazine its less-than-good reputation for balance. No, it doesn't have racial HD; it has a fairly reasonable set of base stat mods (4 Str 2 Con 2 Natural Armor, mental penalties) And then it makes you Large if you happen to be Medium. If it were more carefully edited, it would probably just say you get reach and bigger damage dice, as if you had been hit with an Enlarge Person, but what the text actually says includes the Size Increase modifiers that are normally used for monsters that are increased in size with extra HD. That's +8 Str, +4 Con, +2 Natural Armor, -2 Dex, and a -1 size penalty to attacks and AC.

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-26, 06:53 PM
I am currently playing in a game where the Fighter had a Strength of:
18 Base + 3 book + 2 item + 2 levels + 10 Ogre + 8 Half Dragon = 43. At level 12, she had 3 class levels. We got the book from the Tomb of Horrors when we managed to punk the Banshee.

Maximizing Strength is not that cheesy. Anyone who says that slaughtering Class levels, saves, and hit points for a Strength of 52 is cheesy probably should not look at Polymorph. At level 12, the Wizard Polymorphs into a War Troll and has a Strength of 31 with Dazing Blow. Bite of the Weretiger gives him a +12 Strength. That nets him a Strength of 43 or +16, which is far less than your +21. However, he is still a Wizard and can cast Flight, Haste, Displacement, Glitterdust, etc.
What would be your saves, hit points, and BAB with that build?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Signmaker
2009-07-26, 06:54 PM
Sir, you're going to be a paperweight.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-26, 07:03 PM
Could you tell me what book lolth template is in? The Lolth-Touched template is in Monster Manual IV on page 92.

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 07:03 PM
For the interested (it's only tangentially related, really), I went through some effort to maximize Strength without looping anything here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6346605&postcount=13

PrGo
2009-07-26, 07:04 PM
Ok, first of all, thanks for so many responses :smalltongue:

Now. +3 LA (afflicted) isn't bugging me very much, despite the drawback. I'm kinda used to having high LA.

Alignment isn't a problem either.

Ok, I didn't know about the Beserker strength that I have to have 5 hp for it to work, so i'm scratching that.

I don't think health is going to be the problem either, since I have 22 con in human form, 32 in animal/hybrid, but I might take Improved Toughness and Amulet of Health. I'll just ask the party artificer to make it along with the belt. Also 5/silver DR helps just a tiny bit :smallbiggrin:


Any advice to boost my AC besides a Morphing armor?

Jalor
2009-07-26, 07:15 PM
Oh, I love the Strength-monster builds.

Base 18 STR
Orc: +4 STR, +0 LA
Feral: +4 STR, +1 LA
Half-Minotaur: +12 STR, +1 LA

Barbarian 5/War Hulk 10/Frenzied Berserker 8, put all 4 ability adjustments into STR. War Hulk gives 20 more STR, for 62 base STR, 72 when raging.

Edit: Holy hell, does Lolth-Touched actually reduce your LA? That's 68 base STR, 78 when raging. With an LA that can be easily bought off. With the ability bonus at lv20, plus a +5 tome and +6 item, and you have 80 base and 90 raging.

Edit II: Feral also gives +6 Natural Armor. If you can afford more LA, Mineral Warrior is another +2 to STR, +4 to CON, and +3 NA. At this point though, you have an INT and CHA of 3 and are a Chaotic Evil Frenzied Berserker.

dspeyer
2009-07-26, 07:38 PM
If we're talking about ECL 18, these numbers aren't looking that amazing. A straight level 18 druid could wildshape into an elephant or triceratops for 30 str, then apply animal growth to 38 and bull's strength to 42. You can get to 44 with wolverine's rage, and you should be able to get at least +6 from clasped equipment or vow of poverty.

All this, and you can still cast 9th level spells.

If you don't mind a little cheese, you can dip contemplative, take the war domain and cast divine power instead of bull's strength. That's +6 instead of +4 and sets your BAB equal to your level.

If you're willing to lose 9th level spells (or make it a level 19 build) you can take two levels in warshaper for another +4.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-26, 07:52 PM
Oh, I love the Strength-monster builds.

Base 18 STR
Orc: +4 STR, +0 LA
Feral: +4 STR, +1 LA
Half-Minotaur: +12 STR, +1 LA

Barbarian 5/War Hulk 10/Frenzied Berserker 8, put all 4 ability adjustments into STR. War Hulk gives 20 more STR, for 62 base STR, 72 when raging.

Edit: Holy hell, does Lolth-Touched actually reduce your LA? That's 68 base STR, 78 when raging. With an LA that can be easily bought off. With the ability bonus at lv20, plus a +5 tome and +6 item, and you have 80 base and 90 raging.

Edit II: Feral also gives +6 Natural Armor. If you can afford more LA, Mineral Warrior is another +2 to STR, +4 to CON, and +3 NA. At this point though, you have an INT and CHA of 3 and are a Chaotic Evil Frenzied Berserker.

Start off as an orc.

WAAAGH!!!

SinsI
2009-07-26, 07:52 PM
No way is such a Half-Minotaur only +1 LA. And those stats are too high,
Minotaur only has Str 19, Orc has Str 17 - there's no way you can get that much of a strength bonus out of it. Even a half-hill Giant(Hill Giant has Str 25) is only +10 Str and has +5 LA.

Maybe you're confusing it with Half-Titan that has your desired +14 Str - but +8 LA?

Harperfan7
2009-07-26, 08:01 PM
It's not cheesy at high levels, super high strength is almost necessary for warrior builds at high levels. But at lower levels, that kind of strength is pretty damn cheesy, especially if aquired through templates and prestige classes.

Strictly core build: Half Orc Barbarian 20

Base - 15
half orc - 17
20th level - 21
manual of Str - 26
belt +6 - 32
mighty rage - 40
righteous might item - 48

Jalor
2009-07-26, 08:21 PM
No way is such a Half-Minotaur only +1 LA. And those stats are too high,
Minotaur only has Str 19, Orc has Str 17 - there's no way you can get that much of a strength bonus out of it. Even a half-hill Giant(Hill Giant has Str 25) is only +10 Str and has +5 LA.

Maybe you're confusing it with Half-Titan that has your desired +14 Str - but +8 LA?

Half-Minotaur normally has +4 STR, but it also increases size. The way it's worded, you get the ability adjustments like a monster advanced in size. Because 3.5 is broken in half.

SinsI
2009-07-26, 08:23 PM
That bonus already includes adjustments from becoming Large.

Alleine
2009-07-26, 08:28 PM
No way is such a Half-Minotaur only +1 LA. And those stats are too high

It is, as stated before, from Dragon Magazine. Notorious for lack of balance and poor wording. It shouldn't be +1 LA, but it is.


@PrGo: If you want some better AC just go with the standard Amulet of Nat armor, Ring of Protection, etc. If you're curious, you might also want to take a look at grafts. Their dubious wording sounds like it can allow for some nice +'s to natural armor. Alternatively, if you want to save money on the Ring of protection, buy a suit of Riverine(Stormwrack) Mechanus Gear(Planar handbook) for a handy +10 AC, half of which also applies to touch. Depending on your primary method of attack, shields are a cheap way to get a small bonus.

Jalor
2009-07-26, 08:28 PM
Which? The +4 from the template? RAW, it gives another +8.

tyckspoon
2009-07-26, 08:32 PM
That bonus already includes adjustments from becoming Large.

No, it doesn't. Half-Minotaur is written this way:
You get +4 Strength, +2 Con, and some assorted other stuff.

Then: If you are smaller than Large, you gain these additional benefits: Grow one size category with all associated stat changes. Which means +8 additional Strength, extra Con, natural armor.

The intent probably was that you don't get anything beyond the normal reach+larger weapons benefits of increasing size by means such as Enlarge Person, and the template's base ability modifiers would cover your extra strength and toughness. What was actually written does turn out to be +12 Strength total.

Lewin Eagle
2009-07-26, 08:33 PM
That bonus already includes adjustments from becoming Large.
If this is the correct text (http://www.roleplaymarket.com/ooctopic.aspx?topicID=7876). Then it isn't: " If the base creature is of small or medium size, it gains one size category, becomes medium or large respectively. See Table 4-2: Changes to Statistics by size in the Monster Manual for changes to the base creature when it gains a size category. The changes in this template are in addition to the changes outlined there."
Though 12 str sounds a bit much for la+1 *shrugs*

Shraik
2009-07-26, 08:35 PM
Hell take levels in primeval, lets you turn into a farkin' dinosaur. Adds to str, con, and all that jazz. It's quite fun.

Gorbash
2009-07-26, 08:42 PM
then apply animal growth to 38 and bull's strength to 42.

Animal Growth doesn't work on Druids since Wild Shape doesn't change their subtype to animal.

But spells like Bite of the X work just fine.

To the OP:

The most important question - how high will your Will save be?

Eldariel
2009-07-26, 08:58 PM
It's not cheesy at high levels, super high strength is almost necessary for warrior builds at high levels. But at lower levels, that kind of strength is pretty damn cheesy, especially if aquired through templates and prestige classes.

Strictly core build: Half Orc Barbarian 20

Base - 15
half orc - 17
20th level - 21
manual of Str - 26
belt +6 - 32
mighty rage - 40
righteous might item - 48

Righteous Might has errata making it +4.

Anyways, being full Orc would add 2 more. Base 18 obviously 3 more and level-ups 1 more for 50. Would be possible to do better though: Polymorph Any Object (permanent) into Fire Giant for 31 base, then get +10 from levels and book, +6 item, +8 rage and +4 righteous might for 59. Base Horned Devil would make for 63, but is not an option for PAO and thus misses out on the level-ups.

PrGo
2009-07-26, 09:05 PM
The most important question - how high will your Will save be?

Currently, at ECL 6 its +7 :smalltongue:

SinsI
2009-07-26, 09:09 PM
No, it doesn't. Half-Minotaur is written this way:
You get +4 Strength, +2 Con, and some assorted other stuff.

Then: If you are smaller than Large, you gain these additional benefits: Grow one size category with all associated stat changes. Which means +8 additional Strength, extra Con, natural armor.

The intent probably was that you don't get anything beyond the normal reach+larger weapons benefits of increasing size by means such as Enlarge Person, and the template's base ability modifiers would cover your extra strength and toughness. What was actually written does turn out to be +12 Strength total.
Half-Breed template from Bastards and Bloodlines gives:
Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -1.
and the only thing you get from changing size category is improved reach.

tyckspoon
2009-07-26, 09:18 PM
Half-Breed template from Bastards and Bloodlines gives:
Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -1.


Ok? That doesn't change what the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon Magazine does, and what it does is give you some stat increases and then add on the benefits of Increasing Size as per the table in Improving Monsters. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) Which includes a load of extra Strength and Con and some Natural Armor. It's a really poor editing job and cheesy as hell, but it's clearly what the template does.

SinsI
2009-07-26, 09:32 PM
Let's just say that I consider an official core book dedicated to half-breeds a more reliable source of information on them than some obscure magazine.

tyckspoon
2009-07-26, 09:38 PM
:smallconfused:

Bastards and Bloodlines is a 3rd-party book published by Green Ronin. Dragon is/was the official magazine of Dungeons and Dragons. Green Ronin mostly does better work than Dragon did, but you've got your 'officialness' levels backwards.

Jalor
2009-07-26, 09:52 PM
Ironically, most 3rd party books are better quality than WotC splatbooks, let alone Dragon magazine.

ericgrau
2009-07-26, 09:53 PM
^ I see WotC splatbooks talked about favorably more than others. Not that I like them.

Your attack bonus from 48 strength is +19, and your damage bonus is either 19 or 27. So that's roughly equivalent to a +19 weapon.

Typically, with a base of 18 (only b/c the first post used a base of 18) strength you can get 18 + 6 (item) + 5 (levels) + 5 (tomes) = 34 strength. That's worth about the same as a +12 weapon.

So you're a +7 equivalent ahead of the norm. Up to +12 ahead if you didn't count the 10 strength from levels & tomes. And less than that if your other stats don't bump your HP & saves enough to make up for the LA. A level of a good BAB class plus its class abilities might roughly make up for a +1 equivalent. Maybe more. So that leaves me with only 1 question: What's the LA on all those templates and is it near 7? If they add up to LA 5-6ish (again, assuming +7 equivalent), then I'd say no, that's not cheesy. If it's more like 2-3ish, then ya that's really cheesy. Nothing near pun pun to be sure, perhaps even within the bounds of char op or some powergaming groups, but still quite cheesy in most games.

quick_comment
2009-07-26, 10:39 PM
Dont forget persisted giantsize, for another +30 or so.

And colossal size.

AstralFire
2009-07-26, 10:45 PM
Ironically, most 3rd party books are better quality than WotC splatbooks, let alone Dragon magazine.

Most 3rd party books are pretty terrible. There are a handful from third parties that are good/on par. This is also true for WotC's more obscure splatbooks, but in my opinion the Races, Complete, Tome and Compendium splats were fairly good quality on the whole.

Dragon Magazine is pretty much a complete grab bag. Some great ideas, rarely anything interesting mechanically, and a whole bunch of mechanical stuff that ranges from "who the hell would use that" to "who the hell would ALLOW that?"

The most commonly used things from Dragon Magazine that I see tend to be stuff that anyone could come up with, like stat substitution feats.

Mastikator
2009-07-26, 10:54 PM
The title says it. I'm making a guy that will have such massive strength that I'm not sure it's fun anymore :smalltongue:
Anyways, this is how:
Base strength 18
+6 Lolth-touched template
+14 Werewolf Lord template
+4 Warshaper
+4 Beserker Strength (rage variant from PHB 2) Replaced by normal rage which I won't count into this since it's only for a few rounds.
+6 Belt of Giant Strength.

I know this could be boosted even more, but I'd like to hear your opinions on having such a player from a party member/DM perspective.

Thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

How do you get away with those templates fluffwise?

quick_comment
2009-07-26, 11:00 PM
You can justify anything with fluff.

For a lloth-touched werewolf lord, its easy. You are a werewolf devoted to lloth. She noticed your devotion and rewarded you with her template.

Gralamin
2009-07-26, 11:04 PM
You can justify anything with fluff.

For a lloth-touched werewolf lord, its easy. You are a werewolf devoted to lloth. She noticed your devotion and rewarded you with her template.

Or, you could even reflavor things. No reason that the mechanically lloth-touched thing actually has to have that flavor.

ericgrau
2009-07-27, 12:31 AM
Yeah but a lot of times explaining the templates gets a bit convoluted. Though there are probably worse examples than this one. Players often don't pay much attention to their templates anyway, so it works out I guess.

PrGo
2009-07-27, 04:18 AM
You can justify anything with fluff.

For a lloth-touched werewolf lord, its easy. You are a werewolf devoted to lloth. She noticed your devotion and rewarded you with her template.

Pretty similar. We refluffed lolth-touched to be malar-touched (the CE god of hunt and evil lycantrophes). So one of Malar's mightiest lycantrophes goes around the world inflicting the lycantrophy upon a select few people that Malar has chosen to be his champions on the Prime Material :smallbiggrin:

Mastikator
2009-07-27, 04:53 AM
You can justify anything with fluff.

For a lloth-touched werewolf lord, its easy. You are a werewolf devoted to lloth. She noticed your devotion and rewarded you with her template.

Yeah but... aren't Drow (and by extension Llolth) ultra racist against "half-breeds", which they might view werewolves as? I mean, doesn't a huge pile of prerequisits come with certain templates, certain prerequisits that conflict with other prerequisits.

Maybe I got this whole Llolth thing wrong but I'm pretty sure she'd rather smite a werewolf lord than bless him with a template :/

Unless your DM allows you to just refluff everything. Which is cool, I guess.
I wouldn't personally permiss it anyway if I were a DM. At least not unless I hear a REALLY good backstory to justify those templates :\

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-27, 06:08 AM
A variant half-fiend (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a) based on a Goristro (FC1) would get Str +8, Con +8, natural armor +5, and a size increase (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases), along with the other half-fiend goodies, though for a +4 LA. The size increase can go from large to huge, so if you use Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) as the base race with Half-Minotaur you would have a +5 LA with the following ability modifiers:
Str +32, Dex -4, Con +20, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -2, natural armor +12, huge size

If your starting Strength is 18 then you've got 50 right there, add on Lolth-Touched for 56 at a +6 LA, get a +6 Enhancement bonus and you've got Str 62. That's +26 to hit, +39 two-handed damage, +13 secondary attack (gore) damage. A +6 LA is a bit hard to swallow, but it gets you some unmatched physical stats.

EleventhHour
2009-07-27, 06:46 AM
The only thing this massive amount of strength is going to be good for is if your trying to hit Break DCs on castle walls. :smallbiggrin:

(And even then, your probably going to need some more.)

woodenbandman
2009-07-27, 09:17 AM
You have one attack.

War Hulk does it better anyway. Half Ogre Hulking Hurler/Dungeoncrasher bull rushes you into a wall 700 times. Take a trillion damage.

Indon
2009-07-27, 09:25 AM
The only thing this massive amount of strength is going to be good for is if your trying to hit Break DCs on castle walls. :smallbiggrin:

(And even then, your probably going to need some more.)

Why would you want to break the castle? Just push/drag it to wherever you want it to be.

A character with 40 strength could push/drag 32,000 pounds.

50 strength, 128,000 pounds.
60 strength, 512,000 pounds.
70 strength, 2,048,000 pounds.
Every 10 strength, keep multiplying by 4.

Why go inside the dungeon for loot when you can drag the entire dungeon back with you?

Edit: Alternately: Heavy load for a Str 60 character is 102,400 lbs. You could carry the party headquarters around wherever you like.

Eldariel
2009-07-27, 09:55 AM
Why would you want to break the castle? Just push/drag it to wherever you want it to be.

A character with 40 strength could push/drag 32,000 pounds.

50 strength, 128,000 pounds.
60 strength, 512,000 pounds.
70 strength, 2,048,000 pounds.
Every 10 strength, keep multiplying by 4.

Why go inside the dungeon for loot when you can drag the entire dungeon back with you?

Edit: Alternately: Heavy load for a Str 60 character is 102,400 lbs. You could carry the party headquarters around wherever you like.

Become a Colossal Quadroped and you can pretend to be Atlas. Carry the planet.

Indon
2009-07-27, 10:39 AM
It occurs to me that Jump is Str-based.

Could you load up to your max load, jump 10 feet and drop onto something, dealing 1d6 damage per 200 pounds of junk you're carrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)?

'Cause you could be looking at 32d6 damage at 40 strength alone, merely increasing from there.

...I want to make a Mario build for D&D now...

Edit: He'd be a dwarf, and Enlarge Person would multiply his weight by 8! He would truly be... Super.

Roderick_BR
2009-07-27, 10:47 AM
(...) But alone the spell "Giant Size" gives +32 Str when used on high caster level, untyped to boot. (...)
Shouldn't it be a size bonus, like the ones from Enlarge Person and Righteous Might? Lol to writers that can't do their research.

Myself, I enjoy my goliath with his rage variant. Only +1 ecl (and -2 Dex) for some cool stuff. Also DR variant if there's not many people in the world with adamantive weapons.

Eldariel
2009-07-27, 11:06 AM
Shouldn't it be a size bonus, like the ones from Enlarge Person and Righteous Might? Lol to writers that can't do their research.

It's size, I just typed "untyped" 'cause I'm careless and to basically spell out that it's not enhancement. But yeah, given that all other size increases overlap anyways, it's not like you'd be able to benefit of other similar effects simultaneously.

Person_Man
2009-07-27, 11:43 AM
As others have pointed out, the proposed build is actually quite weak, due to LA and animal HD. If you want ridiculous Str, I suggest Wildshape, Warhulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a), and Rage abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36238).

Thespianus
2009-07-27, 02:09 PM
And you can hope that the DM doesn't stick you in a "Who dunnit?"-scenario. ;)

Zincorium
2009-07-27, 02:34 PM
And you can hope that the DM doesn't stick you in a "Who dunnit?"-scenario. ;)

If you're chaotic evil, who actually dunnit is mostly irrelevant. Unless it was you.

And it probably was, you bastard.

Thespianus
2009-07-27, 05:31 PM
If you're chaotic evil, who actually dunnit is mostly irrelevant. Unless it was you.

And it probably was, you bastard.

While you can't prove a thing, as I have paid off all the witnesses, I guess what bothers me about all these template-crazy builds are..well.. how do people actually react in your gaming world, when half-fiend, half-lolth, half-yourmom creatures show up at the gates of the city?

How can you play a Permanency-enlarged half-dragon kobold and expect any kind of welcome in a major city apart from "Intruders! Kill them?!" and, well, ofcourse.. Pitchforks (http://tkcollier.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/mob_pitchforks_small.jpg). (there has to be pitchforks)

I don't get it. Who actually plays these kind of abominations? I guess I suck. I just can't wrap my head around the whole template-craziness. In my view of the DnD fantasy setting(s), even an half-orc is an oddity that most towns and hamlets would react poorly to.

Maybe I'm a racist..lol.

PrGo
2009-07-28, 04:48 AM
Well, turns out most of the people here were right.

The Lolth-Touched Werewolf Lord died spectacularly at ECL 7 by being eaten by a Tyrannosaurus :smallbiggrin:

At least i got to finally play my Valkyrie :smalltongue:

Killer Angel
2009-07-28, 04:56 AM
Well, turns out most of the people here were right.

The Lolth-Touched Werewolf Lord died spectacularly at ECL 7 by being eaten by a Tyrannosaurus :smallbiggrin:


...and so the poor abomination ended his painfully life. May he rest in peace, and no one shall dare to resurrect him! :smallbiggrin:

PrGo
2009-07-29, 02:38 AM
...and so the poor abomination...

You call that an abomination? The character I played before him was a Lolth-Touched (yeah, I love the template) Black Dragonspawn Changeling with a major Silver Dragon bloodline. And he was a pirate.
:smallbiggrin:

Fluffles
2009-07-30, 08:34 PM
You could throw in another +8 if you add in the Half-Dragon template.

Not only that, but it would also help with your HP. Seeing as it raises all reacial hit die by one size.

Fluffles
2009-07-31, 05:46 PM
Apologies for the double post, but I have to say this.

I'm currently taking this idea one stem farther, I'm doing a 9th level gestault arena, and I'm using one side of for all of the LA stuff. The other side is 7 levels of Barbarian, and 2 levels of war shaper. Current Strength is 54 w/o Items. and have 4 more levels to go with the Werewolf Lord class.

HolderofSecrets
2009-07-31, 07:24 PM
Well, turns out most of the people here were right.

The Lolth-Touched Werewolf Lord died spectacularly at ECL 7 by being eaten by a Tyrannosaurus :smallbiggrin:

At least i got to finally play my Valkyrie :smalltongue:

Ouch. I know the feeling as I lost my Half-Janni Catfolk to one. Of course I had to be eaten 2 times that battle to kill me, as the first T rex learned why you never swallow anything with Sneak Attack or Sudden strike. What I learned from that ordeal was never melee with a T rex.

The Random NPC
2009-08-09, 05:27 AM
I've played with a high str character once. It wasn't very fun, but that was probably the DM, the player, and group dynamics in general. He played a low int high str half-ogre, that was very loyal to a chaotic stupid character. So out of combat was a chore as we had to put up with random zaniness, and combat boiled down to: Ogre charges first monster, it dies. Ogre charges second monster it dies. etc. What it boils down to is 1: how good will it be in combat. 2: how good will it be out of combat. 3: how you and your group will react to one and two. If you routinely end combats in a round, your group may get bored with never getting to fight, or they may hail you as a hero. If you can't do anything out of combat your group may feel you aren't pulling your weight, or you may get bored just saying, "I go along with everyone else." All in all, your mileage will vary.

Talic
2009-08-09, 06:14 AM
The title says it. I'm making a guy that will have such massive strength that I'm not sure it's fun anymore :smalltongue:
Anyways, this is how:
Base strength 18
+6 Lolth-touched template
+14 Werewolf Lord template
+4 Warshaper
+4 Beserker Strength (rage variant from PHB 2) Replaced by normal rage which I won't count into this since it's only for a few rounds.
+6 Belt of Giant Strength.

I know this could be boosted even more, but I'd like to hear your opinions on having such a player from a party member/DM perspective.

Thanks in advance :smallbiggrin:

1) You're going about this all wrong. Highest strength (and Con levels) are obtained through the Tauric Template (MM2, Updated for 3.5). Slap a dozen templates on the Unicorn you use for the quadruped, use a human for the biped side, and enjoy all the non-mental benefits of those templates with none of the cost. I've gotten up to around 90 strength and 80 con with this method, and a +35 Con modifier will more than make up for the +3 LA... Heck, the 4 racial HD alone give you 160 HP total.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-08-09, 06:56 AM
If you're going for the Tauric cheese, use a Lammasu for the quadruped. Those 7 HD grant 7th level Cleric spellcasting, plus you get a natural fly speed and a racial Pounce ability. Stacking templates on it just to ignore their LA is a bit over the top, but that can grab a level of Cleric to get Turning for DMM: Persist and use Divine Power + Righteous Might. It may not get an obscene Str score without the template stacking, but it's definitely a more useful character in the long run.

Talic
2009-08-09, 08:01 AM
Divine Power + Righteous Might < +40 bonus to hit from Str and +35 Con modifier.

The statmonster also picks up Steadfast Determination, enough SLA's to choke a donkey, enough SU's to Choke a donkey, a half dozen different AC and attack bonuses, including a permanent True Strike effect...

At that point, the extra +3 levels for Cleric casting? Seems a bit over the top. It's the basis for a really pretty hulking hurler.

zarakstan
2009-08-09, 08:56 AM
You're character wouldn't be particularly good . . . but it would be kinda of funny I think I got Str 64 by 20th level once, don't quite remember how now . . .

Paul H
2009-08-10, 06:20 PM
Hi

Actually - you don't need templates for high strength.

Human Druid 11/Master Many Forms 2/Cleric 1 can do this easily.
(Cleric there for DMM Persist spell, on Bite of Weretiger)

OK - you lose you iterrative attacks, but Firbolg Form:
Str 52 Dex 15 Con 31
Nat Armour +19

Cheers
Paul H

sofawall
2009-08-10, 06:34 PM
Half-Breed template from Bastards and Bloodlines gives:
Str +4, Con +2, Int -2, Cha -1.
and the only thing you get from changing size category is improved reach.

Sir, do you actually play 3.5 D&D? Or do you just ignore the printed rules, use third party books and make up your own rules?

Paul H
2009-08-10, 06:52 PM
Hi

Back on (non-flame) topic......

Forgot to list rest of MMF Firbolg profile above..........
(Includes Gtr Magic Fang)

BAB +8/Grapple +33
Attacks:
Claw (x 2) + 29. Dam 2D6+22 (Magical).
Bite +27. Dam 3D8 +11 (Magical)

You also gain Blind Fight & Pwr Attack as bonus feats with Bite Weretiger (SpC).

You can also cast Enhanced Wildshape (SpC) for the Extraordinary Abilities (Fast Heal 3, Trample, Rock Catching). Cast second time for +2 Str, or +2 Con, etc.

There are obviously other spells plus items from MIC that can enhance this.

No need to search for multilple templates. Nature is often best at its simplest.

Cheers
Paul H