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Overlord Nicy
2009-07-26, 08:32 PM
So, last session our Dwarf Monk died. So now he had to make a new character. After going with human sorcerer, he rolled stats. Yes, we roll stats. We enjoy variety, we care nothing for balance. But anyway, after rolling two 17s and an 18, luck have it that he gets a 4. Which he dumps to wisdom. So, any advice I should give him about it, aside from the obvious things? (Or obvious things that are so obvious he'll never see it coming.)

AstralFire
2009-07-26, 08:35 PM
I'm seeing low attention span and a complete lack of curiosity about anything that isn't extremely shiny. Also will fall to very simple traps or any situation that requires quick, reactive thinking.

Mongoose87
2009-07-26, 08:37 PM
He gets the big picture, but he gets bogged down in the details.

The Neoclassic
2009-07-26, 08:38 PM
He may also have a very poor memory. However, he's probably good at memorizing material or remembering purely factual things (if he has a good Int score), and his social graces and charm (high Cha) may win over friends who aren't too observent themselves. He's likely a bad decision maker and completely unable to tell who his real friends are.

Of course, it all depends on how he wants to play the character. Should turn out interestingly though....

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-26, 08:59 PM
Shoulda put it in Str.


Hit him with a Will save effect. That'll teach him.

The Neoclassic
2009-07-26, 09:02 PM
Shoulda put it in Str.


Hit him with a Will save effect. That'll teach him.

Not all DMs believe in punishing players for making non-optimal character choices. :smallyuk: It already sounds like this DM wants to help (or at least neutrally guide) this player rather than school them for daring to pick the wrong place to put an ability roll.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-26, 09:06 PM
Not all DMs believe in punishing players for making non-optimal character choices. :smallyuk: It already sounds like this DM wants to help (or at least neutrally guide) this player rather than school them for daring to pick the wrong place to put an ability roll.

In that case, give him a Talisman of the Disc (MIC) and tell him to dump Str instead.

BenTheJester
2009-07-26, 09:10 PM
4 wisdom to me equals completely nuts.

Think mad scientist, imaginary friend, etc.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-26, 09:10 PM
Make sure he has a good familiar to make the spot and listen checks for him (assuming he keeps the familiar rather than something else).

Glyde
2009-07-26, 09:11 PM
The way I play my low wis character (7, so take these a bit... more extreme I guess) is like this. He's very quick to anger and brash, acting before thinking (Though he's brilliant.)

He doesn't think far in advance, though he might have a generic plan for the future. He's addled in the sense that things can go on around him and he'll either be too focused or too distracted (hah.) to notice.

He'd drift in and out of conversations, maybe thinking the planning process is a waste of time. He might end up being rude at times unintentionally, but that could be more of a charisma thing.


Its not much, but I hope it helps

Overlord Nicy
2009-07-26, 09:13 PM
Maybe I should have said this. I'm not actually the DM here. Our party is only me(a drunken barbarian), my friend who plays a mute cleric, and this sorcerer.


I'm seeing low attention span and a complete lack of curiosity about anything that isn't extremely shiny. Also will fall to very simple traps or any situation that requires quick, reactive thinking.

Then I should probably convince him to change, as we're going to be fighting two more levels worth of kobolds?

And yeah, thanks for the advice guys.

deuxhero
2009-07-26, 09:44 PM
Isn't "absent minded professor" the standard explanation/example of a low wisdom high int character?

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-26, 09:56 PM
What are his Intelligence and Charisma scores? That could help with defining what he'd probably be like.

Anyway... a 4 wisdom is just barely higher than the minimum. He probably has poor impulse control, a short attention span, and is easily tricked, persuaded, or talked into things that he knows are bad ideas... and he might realize they're bad ideas if he'd just take the time to stop and think for a second, but his low Wisdom would make that a rare occurance.

If he has a high Intelligence, he'd probably get absorbed into reading a book or thinking about a problem and might have to be physically struck on occasion just to get his attention. If he has an average Intellience, he might just get distracted thinking about bunnies (or gold or women or whatever it is he likes).

Low Wisdom, high Charisma, and average-ish Intelligence could be represented as a pathological party animal; he loves being around lots of people and telling jokes and being the center of attention, probably, regardless of whether other people are laughing with him or at him (and he might not appreciate or even care about the difference). He might be loud and an attention whore regardless of whether it's appropriate at the time or not.

During a conversation, he'd probably be wandering from one subject to the next with every other sentance unless the other person(s) deliberately try to keep him on one subject.

A low Wisdom is sort of like ADD (NOT ADHD, there IS a difference). He'd probably focus on things that interest him and pretty much ignore everything else unless it's an emergency or something.

imp_fireball
2009-07-26, 09:57 PM
He gets the big picture, but he gets bogged down in the details.

He'd also have the imagination of a doorknob unable to see beyond what his magic can do for him. You could make him a bit of a pompous fool depending on his alignment, but not enough that it breaks up the party.

Comparitively, 4 INT would be close to mild retardation.

Also, it really depends on how big the picture is. His low attention span will cause him to forget details, not due to a poor memory (memory isn't a stat that has mechanical affects in D&D unless you're thinking of something like a photographic memory, maybe).

A good way to start with creating a character like this to go with the assumption that he has no grasp of even the fundamentals of something like philosophy or the ability to ask 'good questions'.

The Neoclassic
2009-07-26, 10:08 PM
Comparitively, 4 INT would be close to mild retardation.

Close to? No, it would be severe mental handicap; remember that cats have an Int of 2 and "average"/regular/default-NPC humans have an Intelligence of 10-11. So, Wisdom along the same lines... Would be pretty horrific, the more than I think about it. :smalleek:

AstralFire
2009-07-26, 10:09 PM
Close to? No, it would be severe mental handicap; remember that cats have an Int of 2 and "average"/regular/default-NPC humans have an Intelligence of 10-11. So, Wisdom along the same lines... Would be pretty horrific, the more than I think about it. :smalleek:

What does this button do? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g50SXtsLDhw)

ericgrau
2009-07-26, 10:10 PM
So, last session our Dwarf Monk died. So now he had to make a new character. After going with human sorcerer, he rolled stats. Yes, we roll stats. We enjoy variety, we care nothing for balance. But anyway, after rolling two 17s and an 18, luck have it that he gets a 4. Which he dumps to wisdom. So, any advice I should give him about it, aside from the obvious things? (Or obvious things that are so obvious he'll never see it coming.)

Huh? What? I kinda trailed off and forgot what you were talking about. Say that again?

In the most general sense, per the game rules, wisdom is awareness of other things around you. So you could see a tree, analyze it's bark for tanin content, and count its rings, etc. This is int. But then you take 5 steps immediately afterwards and bump into another tree because you weren't paying attention (that's a DC 0 spot check btw, or DC 5 if distracted). The PHB also describes a low wis as being absent minded. Don't go overboard and make it into a stereotype, but you get the idea.

Kallisti
2009-07-26, 10:19 PM
With that low a Wisdom score, he has no sense at all. Take all of his character flaws and multiply them by like 10.

He's totally clueless. Even with a high int, he won't be able to tell the difference between a good plan and an awful one.

I really, really, really doubt 4 wis is a good idea. If he's a sorceror, it should be in Str.

Because anyone who cares enough to roleplay his mental stats will get you all killed at 4 wis.

Bear in mind, 4 wis is not somewhat impulsive like 7 wis, it's severely, severely mentally handicapped and foolish or maybe utterly, incurably insane.

SinsI
2009-07-26, 10:25 PM
He'd need to have another player constantly watch over him in order not to do something stupid - i.e. become fascinated with a peculiar bug while an enemy is charging him.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-26, 10:28 PM
"Remind me again what happens if I decide to press this button?"

"We die."

"Oh... Okay..."

few minutes later.

"Which button wasn't I supposed to touch? They all look the same."

"The Red one."

"Which Red one? The Dark red, the cherry red, the light red, the maroon, the orange red, the red orange?"

^maybe like that, but worse.

Roc Ness
2009-07-26, 10:30 PM
Make him take notes on Elan :smalltongue:

quick_comment
2009-07-26, 10:41 PM
Someone with 4 wis basically has severe schizophrenia.

Strange affect, delusions, poor perception of reality etc.

Jergmo
2009-07-26, 10:44 PM
With that low a Wisdom score, he has no sense at all. Take all of his character flaws and multiply them by like 10.

He's totally clueless. Even with a high int, he won't be able to tell the difference between a good plan and an awful one.

I really, really, really doubt 4 wis is a good idea. If he's a sorceror, it should be in Str.

Because anyone who cares enough to roleplay his mental stats will get you all killed at 4 wis.

Bear in mind, 4 wis is not somewhat impulsive like 7 wis, it's severely, severely mentally handicapped and foolish or maybe utterly, incurably insane.

There is always some madness in reason, and always some reason in madness. Folks who lose SAN don't lose wisdom. Also, if it were to be allowed by point by, one of those 18's could be reduced to 17 and it'd allow him to pump Wis up to 11. Or the 17 to a 16. *Shrug*

imp_fireball
2009-07-26, 11:44 PM
Close to? No, it would be severe mental handicap; remember that cats have an Int of 2 and "average"/regular/default-NPC humans have an Intelligence of 10-11. So, Wisdom along the same lines... Would be pretty horrific, the more than I think about it.

Oh, not this again. The gap between 2 and 3 INT is massive. If 3 INT means they're walking brain dead automotons incapable of any form of logic, then how can such adventurers survive at all when not in the presence of a party? How would they grasp the ability to take up a life of adventure without intense supervision (something unavailable in the middle ages)? How would they even have any skill points at all?

3 INT is mild retardation in my book. Actual retardation is a major flaw or trait. :smallwink:

Douglas
2009-07-26, 11:52 PM
Matching the average and standard deviation of intelligence and IQ (not that IQ is perfect, but I'm not aware of anything better that can be condensed to a single number), 3 int is equivalent to 65 IQ. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_retardation), that is in the "Mild mental retardation" range.

So yes, a character with 3 int is only mildly retarded.

Mongoose87
2009-07-26, 11:53 PM
Oh, not this again. The gap between 2 and 3 INT is massive. If 3 INT means they're walking brain dead automotons incapable of any form of logic, then how can such adventurers survive at all when not in the presence of a party? How would they grasp the ability to take up a life of adventure without intense supervision (something unavailable in the middle ages)? How would they even have any skill points at all?

3 INT is mild retardation in my book. Actual retardation is a major flaw or trait. :smallwink:

I thought you couldn't speak properly with less than 8?

imp_fireball
2009-07-26, 11:54 PM
Anyone more retarded would likely die right out of the womb in the middle ages, so it's perfectly logical. :smalleek:


I thought you couldn't speak properly with less than 8?

Remember that education isn't very rife in the middle ages. People with average or higher are assumed to 'pick up' things, likely from the nobles, perhaps to seem more dignified themselves. It's not that people stupider lack the capacity, it's just they are of a different cultural barrier.

A lot of peasants in middle ages england spoke in uvular Rs for example until that one German king came along. 'Speaking properly' is noble perception. In the world today, there's no way to 'speak properly' except through what literary authoritarians tell you. Everyone has accents, slang, etc. And it is true that those of lower capacity tend to speak more simply and straight forward - that's probably what the books meant.


Someone with 4 wis basically has severe schizophrenia.

Either that, or they're the most ignorant buffoon you'll come across in a bar. People who could never tell a joke or recognize what actually is funny. Again, I'd argue that schizophrenia is a trait or flaw; usually reducing WIS rather than requiring rock bottom WIS as a prerequisite.

ericgrau
2009-07-27, 12:03 AM
I see a lot of people expressing exactly the stereotypes I suggested avoiding. A 4 wis could be mad, but it doesn't have to be. Nor is he unable to act. Derro (which really are mad) live healthy murderous lives. And in the case of the Derro the madness causes low wis not vis versa (see: madness removal method).

Chaelos
2009-07-27, 12:06 AM
Per the SRD, a 2 WIS would be roughly the equivalent of a moving fungus. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shrieker) 4 WIS, in my book, would be somewhere between a sack of flour and a three year old human child, for purposes of determining willpower, common sense, perception and intuition.

imp_fireball
2009-07-27, 12:06 AM
Unless of course he's cool with being a lunatic. :P

"Whee!"
"Oh here we go again."
"This reminds me of merry-go-rounds!"
"What is he saying? Never mind, I won't get involved in this... you can have the loot."
"Loot a toot! Loot a toot!"

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-27, 12:18 AM
People who could never tell a joke or recognize what actually is funny.

I think that might be more indicative of a low Charisma.

Hat-Trick
2009-07-27, 01:30 AM
No, Charisma is more along the lines of TELLING a good joke. INT is more for processing and understanding, wisdom would be more like they didn't hear it in the first place and ask for it to be repeated, and with this low of a WIS, probably not hear it yet again.

mint
2009-07-27, 04:24 AM
Depending on the other mental stats, wis 4 could probably be heavily autistic.
In some ways that might be interesting in the right gaming group with some planning.

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-27, 04:56 AM
Lots of ways to play low-wis imo >.>

Personal favorite:

Don't think things through. Ever. Be impulsive, rash, daring... without any of the foresight that might accompany another hero doing the same.

DO: Attempt to tackle the minotaur.

DON'T: Think through the consequences of doing so as a sorcerer.

DO: Punch the half-orc in the face because he angered you.

DON'T: Remember that he's the mayor.

DO: Taunt the god-killing abomination.

DON'T: Stick around very long. (You're crazy, not stupid!)

(Really, this isn't so much playing "crazy" as just someone who continuously fails to look before they leap. This can be very exciting, as it can dump you into circumstances that are unpredictable and interesting... but it can also lead to a very short character life (and possibly PO your party members, so you've got to tone it down from time to time.)

---

Completely nuts. It's not that you're reckless - it's just that you have a truly warped sense of perspective on life. Maybe you'd spit in a Balor's eye, but are *TERRIFIED of spiders. (Normal every day spiders, not monstrous ones). Or perhaps your backpack talks to you. In Sylvan. Backwards. On tuesdays. And the words come out blue.

Could be that you're haunted by the ghosts of termites.

---

You aren't insane, nor particularly willing to take risks, but you have absolutely no attention span whatsoever. You're plenty bright, but you can't answer simple questions because they just aren't interesting enough and after all, butterflies are awfully pretty; and you really enjoy talking about them. Also dogs are nice; but cats have the tendency to spray, and that smells ferociously bad. Don't even get me started on pet birds...

---

You're absolutely brilliant; but unfortunately, you're pretty much incapable of taking care of yourself. You can comprehend the great puzzles of the arcane with astounding ease... but something practical like cooking or even keeping yourself presentable is pretty much entirely beyond you.

---

I'm sure there's even more ideas out there >.>

SinsI
2009-07-27, 05:04 AM
Matching the average and standard deviation of intelligence and IQ (not that IQ is perfect, but I'm not aware of anything better that can be condensed to a single number), 3 int is equivalent to 65 IQ. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_retardation), that is in the "Mild mental retardation" range.

So yes, a character with 3 int is only mildly retarded.

3 Int is 30 IQ, it's Severe mental retardation. Each ten points of IQ converts to 1 point of INT - that's how you get an average Int 10 (IQ 100 is set to be the average one) and a maximum human Int 18.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-27, 05:12 AM
3 Int is 30 IQ, it's Severe mental retardation. Each ten points of IQ converts to 1 point of INT - that's how you get an average Int 10 (IQ 100 is set to be the average one) and a maximum human Int 18.

Wisdom != Intelligence

Spiryt
2009-07-27, 05:15 AM
3 Int is 30 IQ, it's Severe mental retardation. Each ten points of IQ converts to 1 point of INT - that's how you get an average Int 10 (IQ 100 is set to be the average one) and a maximum human Int 18.

Nope. People have actually found better ways to translate Int to IQ, 1 point = 10 is not very good.

And 100 Iq would actually be 10.5 - stat that doesn't exist, but 11 is more average stat in my opinion.

SinsI
2009-07-27, 05:42 AM
Nope. People have actually found better ways to translate Int to IQ, 1 point = 10 is not very good.
It doesn't matter what those people invented, 1 Int = 10 IQ was the official definition even back in the days of D&D 2.0.


And 100 Iq would actually be 10.5 - stat that doesn't exist, but 11 is more average stat in my opinion.
10 and 11 are completely equal, they have exactly the same frequency of appearance and your chances to score higher than 10 or lower than 11 are the same - niether is "more average".


As for the character with Wisdom 4 - it becomes really negative only if that player wants to roleplay that wisdom(and get bonus roleplay XP). Otherwise, it is just a nuisance due to lower will save. It's like when you play a character with a very high Int - the character itself is always as smart as his player is, you only get the advantages from pure game mechanics. I see no reason why the reverse shouldn't be true.

The Neoclassic
2009-07-27, 05:55 AM
Since no one can agree on the Int/retardation matter, let's say it's up to each DM (since, honestly, it would be in all practicality) and go back to the matter of Wisdom. :smalltongue:

Someone suggested making the character autistic, but I think that'd be a combination of low Wis and equally low Cha, which won't be the case for a sorcerer.

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 09:03 AM
Yeah, autism would almost certainly be low cha, not low wis.

Low wis is problems with percieving reality, which is disorders like schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder and the like.

woodenbandman
2009-07-27, 09:06 AM
Just in case he hasn't, I'd advise him to take the feat "Force of Personality." it's absolutely necessary.

EDIT: 1 int = 10 IQ was back in the days when there was only 25 int, ever. It doesn't translate so well when you have creatures that the average of the race has a 35. A wizard can probably get 50 Int if he tries hard enough (albeit for a short while). That kind of intelligence would literally shatter the whole world.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-27, 09:08 AM
Read 8-Bit Theater. Take notes on Red Mage.


a complete lack of curiosity about anything that isn't extremely shiny.

He'd also have the imagination of a doorknob unable to see beyond what his magic can do for him.

I fail to see how curiosity or imagination have anything to do with wisdom. Especially since high wisdom, low intelligence, low charisma almost always represents the dependable but boring character.

SinsI
2009-07-27, 09:16 AM
Just in case he hasn't, I'd advise him to take the feat "Force of Personality." it's absolutely necessary.

EDIT: 1 int = 10 IQ was back in the days when there was only 25 int, ever. It doesn't translate so well when you have creatures that the average of the race has a 35. A wizard can probably get 50 Int if he tries hard enough (albeit for a short while). That kind of intelligence would literally shatter the whole world.

IQ exists only for normal humans. Normal, non-adventuring humans roll 3d6 for stats, exactly like they did in D&D 2.0 - there's no reason to change it.
Yeah, a wizard can have 50 Int if he uses lots of magic items and spells - but if you use a computer you'd get a higher IQ too.

And did you mean "Iron Will"?

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-27, 09:18 AM
Force of Personality (If I remember correctly) lets you use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves

Overlord Nicy
2009-07-27, 09:30 AM
If anyone still wants to know, his Int is 17 and Cha 18. He actually decided to put his other 17 into....Con.

SinsI
2009-07-27, 09:45 AM
Force of Personality (If I remember correctly) lets you use Cha instead of Wis for Will saves
So the only bad thing he faces is a bad Listen/Sense Motive/Spot check?

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-27, 09:48 AM
Well and the fact that you had to use a feat to do it, and it's not like sorcerers are made of feats... but yeah pretty much.

Douglas
2009-07-27, 09:52 AM
It doesn't matter what those people invented, 1 Int = 10 IQ was the official definition even back in the days of D&D 2.0.
Ok, so some people who didn't bother to do any serious thinking and math on the subject wrote something in an old edition of the game that gives a distribution vastly different from the one it's supposed to match. Pardon me if I completely ignore such a declaration, especially as it was not included in any 3e, 3.5, or 4e rulebook and the character being discussed in this thread is for a 3.5 game.

3d6 has an average of 10.5 and a standard deviation very close to 3. IQ in the real world has an average of 100 and a standard deviation of about 15. Thus, 10.5 int = 100 IQ, and each 1 point difference in intelligence corresponds to a 5 point difference in IQ. 3 intelligence therefore matches up with 62.5 IQ.

Talya
2009-07-27, 09:54 AM
There's a feat somewhere that swaps your will save to Charisma...it's in a fairly common book, too, if I remember. Can't remember it now and I'm at work. Since he's a sorcerer, this would be a great feat for him. He's still going to have a hard time with spot/listen checks, but he should do alright.


Edit: Ninja'd? :)

AstralFire
2009-07-27, 10:00 AM
Read 8-Bit Theater. Take notes on Red Mage.




I fail to see how curiosity or imagination have anything to do with wisdom. Especially since high wisdom, low intelligence, low charisma almost always represents the dependable but boring character.

I don't mean curiosity as in an appetite for learning. I mean curiosity as in the natural curiosity that comes as part of survival instincts. If this person had something slithering in their bed but all of a sudden the lights came on before they'd puzzled out what it meant, they would pay more attention to the lights since it's more attention-grabbing at a directly sensory level.

SinsI
2009-07-27, 10:10 AM
Ok, so some people who didn't bother to do any serious thinking and math on the subject wrote something in an old edition of the game that gives a distribution vastly different from the one it's supposed to match. Pardon me if I completely ignore such a declaration, especially as it was not included in any 3e, 3.5, or 4e rulebook and the character being discussed in this thread is for a 3.5 game.

3d6 has an average of 10.5 and a standard deviation very close to 3. IQ in the real world has an average of 100 and a standard deviation of about 15. Thus, 10.5 int = 100 IQ, and each 1 point difference in intelligence corresponds to a 5 point difference in IQ. 3 intelligence therefore matches up with 62.5 IQ.
Here's an interesting read on this topic:
http://www.superdan.net/dndmisc/int_iq.html

AstralFire
2009-07-27, 10:11 AM
The easiest damn thing with IQ is to not even try to sync it up to Int and just use eyeballs against monsters.

endoperez
2009-07-27, 10:19 AM
Low-int character is stupid.

Low-cha character is boring.

Now, this sorcerer... he's definitely not boring, and he's not stupid either. As far as stereotypes go, he could be a really esoteric artistic type, perhaps with drinking problem, and strange illogical habits, horrible temper etc. For intra-party reasons he probably shouldn't be too egoistical and take too much "screen" time, but it could be really fun.

The mad scientist archetype would also be a good fit.

Delaney Gale
2009-07-27, 10:31 AM
A low Wisdom is sort of like ADD (NOT ADHD, there IS a difference). He'd probably focus on things that interest him and pretty much ignore everything else unless it's an emergency or something.

I'll agree with you on how low Wisdom leads to ADD symptoms, but feel the impulsive need to correct you about ADD/ADHD. As of 1994, ADHD is the term used in the DSM-IV to cover both, ADD is the colloquial term for the inattentive variant. They're different parts of the same spectrum, so someone who's ADHD predominately inattentive *waves hi* can still demonstrate hyperactivity-type symptoms on occasion.

If anyone knows World of Darkness/Vampire: the Requiem, I could see this being played something like the Toreador bloodline disadvantage (fixation on a certain type of artistic medium: unable to do anything but comment on it for the rest of the scene if it shows up). Get fixated on things, even if you logically know it doesn't make sense- it's a fairly common ADHD symptom. I've gotten fixated on the texture of my knit gloves while driving before, which was LOGICALLY not the right thing to be focusing on, and I knew it, but my mind kept going back to it until I took them off and sat on them.

Riffington
2009-07-27, 10:32 AM
EDIT: 1 int = 10 IQ was back in the days when there was only 25 int, ever. It doesn't translate so well when you have creatures that the average of the race has a 35. A wizard can probably get 50 Int if he tries hard enough (albeit for a short while). That kind of intelligence would literally shatter the whole world.

Right, so I'd claim it still translates pretty well (though it's a bit more curved than a strict 10:1, it's a decent analogy). An 18 strength is Mike Tyson; while it's certainly possible for a character to exceed 18, that doesn't mean Tyson gets a 24. It just means that you are playing a character who is as strong as a gorilla. Or, at high levels, a locomotive. Similarly, a 24 Int may be possible for your character, it's just that he beats Kasparov at chess the third time he plays the game. (And, unfortunately, is impossible for you to roleplay correctly)

A 35=350 IQ might be a correct analogy - it's just that the IQ tests on Earth aren't capable of measuring that high, and that you as a player aren't capable of imagining such a character's thought processes. It is much easier to imagine a superhuman physical attribute than a superhuman mental attribute, after all.

Delaney Gale
2009-07-27, 10:36 AM
Ok, so some people who didn't bother to do any serious thinking and math on the subject wrote something in an old edition of the game that gives a distribution vastly different from the one it's supposed to match. Pardon me if I completely ignore such a declaration, especially as it was not included in any 3e, 3.5, or 4e rulebook and the character being discussed in this thread is for a 3.5 game.

3d6 has an average of 10.5 and a standard deviation very close to 3. IQ in the real world has an average of 100 and a standard deviation of about 15. Thus, 10.5 int = 100 IQ, and each 1 point difference in intelligence corresponds to a 5 point difference in IQ. 3 intelligence therefore matches up with 62.5 IQ.

*cheers for* YES. I calculated this out while bored in a lecture, and it makes sooooo much more sense than a linear relationship, because multi-die probability isn't linear! I've taken too many probability and statistical mechanics classes for anything but fitting to a Gaussian to make sense.

Also, it's much, MUCH less probable to have a 180 IQ than it is to roll three sixes. Bell-curve probability leads to one in a million having an IQ of 180. Any particular roll combination on 3d6 is one out of 216. It is five thousand times less likely to pick the one person with an IQ of 180 out of a hypothetical sample of a representative million than it is to roll 3d6.

Riffington
2009-07-27, 10:46 AM
Bell-curve probability leads to one in a million having an IQ of 180. Any particular roll combination on 3d6 is one out of 216. It is five thousand times less likely to pick the one person with an IQ of 180 out of a hypothetical sample of a representative million than it is to roll 3d6.

To be fair:
The notion that common humans get 3d6 is unrealistic; there should be no implication that an 18 in any score should really be found in 1:216 humans.
Also, IQ is not a real bell curve. Furthermore, we can't really measure IQ above 145. We may be able to imagine the 180 IQ person being much smarter than 150, but that's just a thought exercise. The guy with 150 could be smarter than the 180 - the test is not reliable at that point.

Delaney Gale
2009-07-27, 11:03 AM
To be fair:
The notion that common humans get 3d6 is unrealistic; there should be no implication that an 18 in any score should really be found in 1:216 humans.

Yet, this is the assumption for rolling a "common" human character.

I'm not bothered by it, really- if you picked 216 people out of the square mile I'm currently living in (admittedly a biased sample, and hence not exactly representative of the world population, but since it's a Midwestern suburb it's probably average enough for the US), you might just find people who have scores of 18. I know of a bodybuilder (high STR), a competitive gymnast (high DEX), a marathoner (high CON), an astrophysicist (high INT), a long-time priest (high WIS), and a radio personality (high CHA). If I took my sample out of the university I work at, there would DEFINITELY be people with 18s- no hubris intended, I work for a Big Ten school with an extremely famous Olympian alumnus.

The 4d6, drop one method favored by every group I've been in is supposed to create an above-average human character.


Also, IQ is not a real bell curve.

If we're working with a flawed system, we should use the flawed system's assumptions. IQ is theoretically self-scaling so that it is a Gaussian, with equal amounts of results with IQ > 160 and IQ < 40. If we're not going to admit that, we should at least admit that it is by no means linear!

Zuki
2009-07-27, 11:11 AM
Especially since high wisdom, low intelligence, low charisma almost always represents the dependable but boring character.

Kyrt, the shifter monk that was the heart and soul of the last 3.5 Eberron campaign I played in, would beg to differ. He was anything but boring. His low charisma was mostly manifested in ways of speaking and approaches to social situations that were off-kilter, uncouth, and not-very-effective against people that weren't party members. The party, on the other hand? We loved the guy.

(I want to elaborate on this, but I've got to get to class. Perhaps I'll join the debate later on this evening.)

Lapak
2009-07-27, 11:28 AM
I'm playing a 15-Int, 5-Wis character right now in a campaign. I've been playing him as a creature of impulse - he follows my first reaction to any situation rather than my first gut feeling about the situation or my first train of thought. If the DM says 'there's a chest' and your first impulse is to wonder what's in it, open the chest without considering the matter further. If your genuine first reaction is that it is trapped - maybe you just got burned by another chest five minutes ago - deal with that with the most immediate method. If there's an axe in your hand, chuck it at the chest to set off the trap. If you're a spellcaster with a Knock or Mage Hand spell, great; if you're a spellcaster with only fire spells, well, also great.

EDIT: Both 4 and 5 WIS are plenty to avoid obviously lethal situations, though, so don't feel compelled to go swimming in the pretty lava just to stay in character.

In my case, my character is also the only character in the group with arcane spells AND the only character with rogue skills. The party is mildly terrified whenever they have to send me out scouting.

Person_Man
2009-07-27, 11:53 AM
I think a low Wis high Cha character should be played as a psychopath. Many cult and political leaders are completely divorced from reality. And oddly, if you can coherently communicate your message without taking on the standard symptoms of what people think of as crazy/unacceptable (delusions, depression, poverty) having a completely different (potentially better, potentially apocalyptic) view of the world will often attract other people to you, presumably because they're unhappy with the way the world currently is.

Saph
2009-07-27, 11:58 AM
I'm playing a 15-Int, 5-Wis character right now in a campaign. I've been playing him as a creature of impulse - he follows my first reaction to any situation.

This was how I used to play my old 15 Int 5 Wis Beguiler.

DM: "There's a door to the left-"
Me: "Ooh! I search it for traps."
DM: "Nothing."
Me: "Cool! I open the door and look."
Other PC: "Wait, we should check the rest of the area first and-"
Me: "Blah blah I'm a boring elf blah. Not listening." (To the DM) "Door's open, what's inside?"

The funny thing was that short-circuiting the party discussion actually made us more effective rather than less.

- Saph

Riffington
2009-07-27, 12:21 PM
you might just find people who have scores of 18. I know of a bodybuilder (high STR), a competitive gymnast (high DEX), a marathoner (high CON), an astrophysicist (high INT), a long-time priest (high WIS), and a radio personality (high CHA). If I took my sample out of the university I work at, there would DEFINITELY be people with 18s- no hubris intended, I work for a Big Ten school with an extremely famous Olympian alumnus.

I guess I see those numbers differently. I see your marathoner and say "yes, high Con. The absolute minimum with rigorous training to complete a marathon is 12, and lots of those guys have 14s. The winners may be better still" A US Olympian in certain sports would certainly have an 18 - but I don't think there are 1.5 million people running around the US with an 18 Con. If there were, the NYC marathon wouldn't allow out-of-State participants.

P.S. you are certainly permitted to brag about your school's sports achievements without any concerns regarding hubris.

BillyJimBoBob
2009-07-27, 12:33 PM
I guess I see those numbers differently. I see your marathoner and say "yes, high Con. The absolute minimum with rigorous training to complete a marathon is 12, and lots of those guys have 14s. The winners may be better still" A US Olympian in certain sports would certainly have an 18 - but I don't think there are 1.5 million people running around the US with an 18 Con. If there were, the NYC marathon wouldn't allow out-of-State participants.I always tended to see the upper heights of stats as being broadly applicable. So your marathon runners might have a 14 CON, but the marathon runner who also never catches a winter flu is the one with the 18 CON.

Of course Lance Armstrong both supports and contradicts this line of thought: If he had such a high CON, he wouldn't have gotten cancer. But due to his high CON he not only beat cancer but went on to win the TdF a few times while suffering from a physical handicap due to the cancer.

Just another reason why games can only hope to roughly model reality.

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 12:36 PM
A marathon is 26 miles.

An strong runner can do a marathon in 3 hours (world records are just over 2 hours).

Thats 8.66 miles per hour. According to the SRD, an hour of hustling with a movement speed of 30ft (I assme all the runners are human), only gets you 6 miles.

If we assume they have the dash feat (increases speed by 5 ft), the speed goes up to 7mph.

So elite runners need a homebrew feat that increases their speed by 15 ft. (45 ft movement gives 9 mph).

A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. After that hour, you take X nonlethal damage per hour, where X=twice the damage in the previous hour or 1.

So someone who runs a marathon in 3 hours takes 3 points of nonlethal damage. To stop from passing out, they need to either have max HP on their d4 commoner hit dice, or a positive con mod.


So you dont even need 12 con to complete a marathon in good time. You do need a special feat to increase your speed though.

Random832
2009-07-27, 12:45 PM
Or you could homebrew a rule to allow unencumbered characters to go x3 (running would be x4) for periods of time longer than running is allowed.

Also, the "mile" used to calculate the tables is 6000 ft, so a marathon should be considered 23 miles, not 26.2

Tengu_temp
2009-07-27, 12:48 PM
So someone who runs a marathon in 3 hours takes 3 points of nonlethal damage. To stop from passing out, they need to either have max HP on their d4 commoner hit dice, or a positive con mod.


Commoner is a class for starving peasants, old people, kids, beggars and complete inepts. People with education, good food and health care are at least experts by DND standards.

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 01:00 PM
Commoner is a class for starving peasants, old people, kids, beggars and complete inepts. People with education, good food and health care are at least experts by DND standards.

In that case, you only need average hp and 10 con.

Douglas
2009-07-27, 01:01 PM
but I don't think there are 1.5 million people running around the US with an 18 Con. If there were, the NYC marathon wouldn't allow out-of-State participants.
No, there are not 1.5 million people in the US with 18 con who want to run the NYC marathon. There are, however, probably over a million people in the US with 18 con who don't care about the NYC marathon. These people are tough, healthy, and almost never get sick, but may just have no interest in long distance running competitions.

An Olympic athlete likely has an ability score higher than 18. In some cases, it might be possible to represent this with several character levels and the levelup increases. In most cases, though, it's just a consequence of the limits of using a mere three dice to approximate a bell curve - the true bell curve would, given a large enough population, produce a few people much farther from normal than either extreme end of the possible dice results. Making truly accurate D&D stats for such extraordinary individuals requires ignoring the normal stat generation method and its limits.

Try doing this for stat generation: roll 12d6, subtract 21, and divide by 2. Round randomly. This will give very close to the same distribution of scores in the 3-18 range as 3d6, but it's theoretically possible to go as far as -5 or 26 - though these extremes will only show up in about 1 time in 5 billion. If you are only concerned about typical people, 3d6 is considerably easier and simpler. If you want to accurately represent the possible extremes as well, this 12d6 method does a much better job.

Swok
2009-07-27, 01:03 PM
Of course Lance Armstrong both supports and contradicts this line of thought: If he had such a high CON, he wouldn't have gotten cancer. But due to his high CON he not only beat cancer but went on to win the TdF a few times while suffering from a physical handicap due to the cancer.

Just another reason why games can only hope to roughly model reality.

It's more that D&D is not meant to model cancer. At all. It also isn't that amazing at modeling Diseases.

Mongoose87
2009-07-27, 01:07 PM
A marathon is 26 miles.

An strong runner can do a marathon in 3 hours (world records are just over 2 hours).

Thats 8.66 miles per hour. According to the SRD, an hour of hustling with a movement speed of 30ft (I assme all the runners are human), only gets you 6 miles.

If we assume they have the dash feat (increases speed by 5 ft), the speed goes up to 7mph.

So elite runners need a homebrew feat that increases their speed by 15 ft. (45 ft movement gives 9 mph).

A character can hustle for 1 hour without a problem. After that hour, you take X nonlethal damage per hour, where X=twice the damage in the previous hour or 1.

So someone who runs a marathon in 3 hours takes 3 points of nonlethal damage. To stop from passing out, they need to either have max HP on their d4 commoner hit dice, or a positive con mod.


So you dont even need 12 con to complete a marathon in good time. You do need a special feat to increase your speed though.

Maybe they've got homebrew classes that provide fast movement?

Riffington
2009-07-27, 01:11 PM
Maybe they've got homebrew classes that provide fast movement?

Really I've assumed that running, weightlifting, football throwing, etc are skills that the average D&D character wouldn't take, but that are much more common in the modern setting. Ranks in weightlifting will greatly improve your curls and squats, for example, but wouldn't give you much more usable hitting strength - that's why Tyson is astoundingly strong, even though he benched less than many bodybuilders.

Tengu_temp
2009-07-27, 01:13 PM
I'd also like to point out that if you really have to portray the modern world in a D20 setting, it's better to use D20 Modern rather than DND. Or, even better, Mutants and Masterminds, because that game kicks ass.

Spiryt
2009-07-27, 01:14 PM
There are, however, probably over a million people in the US with 18 con who don't care about the NYC marathon. These people are tough, healthy, and almost never get sick, but may just have no interest in long distance running competitions.


And even if they get interest, they wouldn't be able to achieve good results.

Some of them probably could achieve them trough long training, some of them would never achieve any good results.

Somebody can be very healthy and resistant but not able to run long distances/run with changing tempo or whatever at all. Or be able to resist a lot of pain.

Six D&D abilities are too simple, collusive, sometimes outright self-contradictory to model real human beings very well.

And thus :


An Olympic athlete likely has an ability score higher than 18

If anything, he has some feats/skills that allow him to do things that other humans cannot.

SinsI
2009-07-27, 02:58 PM
If anything, he has some feats/skills that allow him to do things that other humans cannot.
Olympic athlets just have some good buffs via a potion or a shot.

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-27, 07:50 PM
It has been said "Intelligence is knowing what to do; Wisdom is doing it. (http://www.angryflower.com/lordot.gif)" Also, "Intelligence is how smart you are; Wisdom is how dumb you aren't."

But if you ask me, one of the best guidelines to keep in mind is that animals tend to have Wisdom over 10, but significantly lower Intelligence. So, if an animal can preform a mental task about as well as or better than an average human, it's not Int-based. If humans can perform a mental task better than any animal, it's probably Int-based.
Someone with horrible Wisdom is probably kinda nuts, and likely fails to grasp basic principles that the average dog has down pat, like "Fire bad!"


The notion that common humans get 3d6 is unrealistic
How so? Do most of the attributes associated with ability scores not follow bell curve distributions in real life? Do the abilities of real people match up poorly with what ability scores allow for?

quick_comment
2009-07-27, 08:13 PM
Do the abilities of real people match up poorly with what ability scores allow for?

They do. As I showed above, the average human can run a marathon in much better time than the average human can. And high level athletes are impossible without made up feats.

Yukitsu
2009-07-27, 08:43 PM
You know, I can't help but assume that with increased health care, better nutrition, mandatory education, post enligtenment thinking and increases in the standards of personal hydgiene that we have higher stats than a 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 pleb in D&D. Maybe some serf back in feudal Europe had those stats, but to be honest, I doubt that holds for this day and age. I'd go as far as saying that our stats in comparison are on average 1-2 higher at least a few of those stats.

AstralFire
2009-07-27, 09:09 PM
Remember intelligence isn't knowledge, though I wouldn't be surprised if the emphasis on learning still has improved average intelligence.

Yukitsu
2009-07-27, 09:50 PM
That's actually diet and the fact that we learn critical thinking nowadays, which is "learning to learn" as it were, though I question how much some people actually get out of that. Learning things can actually make people smarter, so long as we learn how to think along the way.