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herrhauptmann
2009-07-26, 08:48 PM
Hey, I'm currently having an issue properly challenging my party.
They consist of human monk1/sorc2 with Vow of Poverty
human Druid 3 with Vow of Poverty
Aasimar favored soul 2 (ecl 3)
Gnome beguiler 2.


Now the issue, is that it's very difficult to properly challenge these guys. The druid is probably the most balanced of the party, and maybe the beguiler.
The favored soul has a tendency to get oneshotted, so he spends much of his time unconscious.
The monk uses a few buff spells to get her AC up to 22. So I can't hit her unless I throw a monster with a higher attack bonus at her. But a monster with the higher attack bonus will probably one shot her if he hits due to higher strength mod, and definitely will do so to the beguiler or favored soul.
I'm leery of making more custom monsters and bosses, because I tend to make them too tough. Last fight was a dozen goblins, 5 hobgoblins, a orc bbn2, and orc ftr 1 (archer).
The expression on most of their faces was "You're going to kill us, this is too tough!" When in the end, only the favored soul was in danger of dieing. The druid was pretty well hurt by the archer, and so was his wolf by the hobgoblins. But the fight actually went fairly quickly.

What can I do for these guys, to give them properly challenging fights?
The beguiler was a replacement for a character who died in the previous adventure, and the player still has most of his gold in a chest, rather than spending it on scrolls, potions, or any of a dozen other things he could use.

RandomNPC
2009-07-26, 10:08 PM
you said fights specificly, try giving them a few puzzles and social challenges to give them a level or two, ya know, xp for overcoming the challenge and all that. then toss some monsters at them.

or give them a DMPC meatshield, with an AC over attack bonus build.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-26, 10:14 PM
Up the CRs a bit. Instead of using a bunch of 1's and 2's, send 3 6's at them. Or Swarms/Mobs. I find Swarms to be very dangerous to low-level groups if the players get hit with a surprise round.

Using Trips/Grapples/Bull Rushes also works. Oh, and modifying monsters using the Book of 9 Swords or Magic of Incarnum also makes things a bit harder for them. In short, don't use unmodified encounters. Work out some stats for LA=0 enemies that have class levels too, then just mix and match every few encounters. It takes a lot of paperwork, but that's what CO is for. Ask CO for an optimized build progression, then stat it out yourself.




And never use the unmodified Elite Array if you roll stats or use more than 25 PB.



Edit: Oh wait. You meant weakening the encounters. My bad. A good way to start is to loosen the restrictions/improve the benefits of VoP, or give bonuses to players that don't have it. Magic items go a long way. This thread has a list of very solid items to help certain parties (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3744.0)(not all will be useful due to builds, but most of the wands should come in handy).

This is another good thread for items. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0)

Finally, use the Partial Gestalt (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) (2nd post) rules for some of them, or force Gestalt Incarnum classes for a few of the weaker players. It will reduce their item-dependency, and improve their effectiveness (same idea as Partial Gestalt, except everyone's other class has to be Incarnate or Totemist. Soulborn does not exist).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-26, 10:33 PM
Entangle them, send in swarms.

jmbrown
2009-07-26, 10:55 PM
Based on their classes, they likely require maneuverability to function properly. Terrain is always a DM's best friend and often times getting to the monsters is tougher than actually facing them. Have monsters use cover and difficult terrain to their advantage. Toss in some spell casters to charm/enchant/control the battlefield. Use more archers to soften them up for hiding skirmishers that strike when they get too close.

ZeroNumerous
2009-07-26, 10:58 PM
Entangle them, send in swarms.


Terrain is always a DM's best friend and often times getting to the monsters is tougher than actually facing them.

Congrats, you both failed reading comprehension.

My suggestion is to ask them to change Vow of Poverty. Give them free bonus feats that aren't Vow of Poverty. Or just give them better wealth they should have. Either way, nix Vow of Poverty.

CthulhuM
2009-07-26, 11:04 PM
I think you're overestimating the damage output of tougher monsters. There are plenty out there with decent attack bonuses but not a ton of damage. They shouldn't be one-shotting anyone unless the characters dumped con (and if they did that... well, then it's their own damn fault if they get one-shotted).

Try sending a small dragon against them, for instance - plenty of hit points, a threatening-but-not-lethal breath weapon, and attacks that have a decent chance of hitting even the monk, but don't do a ton of damage. A very young blue, for example, does 1d6+1 with a bite and 1d4 with 2 claws.

Alternatively, build your own NPCs, but make them a bit more defensively focused. That'll slow the battle down and make it a bit more about tactics and attrition than a gib-fest.

sofawall
2009-07-26, 11:15 PM
So it seems the problem is you want to challenge them, but not kill them, and you seem to not be able to do that. The monk, if he gets hit, tends to die, and so does the favoured soul. Hmm.

Well, for hitting the AC without resorting to something with a huge attack bonus, trip/grapple are touch, so mage armour/shield won't apply.

jmbrown
2009-07-26, 11:18 PM
Congrats, you both failed reading comprehension.

My suggestion is to ask them to change Vow of Poverty. Give them free bonus feats that aren't Vow of Poverty. Or just give them better wealth they should have. Either way, nix Vow of Poverty.

How? He's asking for ways to challenge the party and I provided just that.

Don't remove vow of poverty if the players are adhering to the strict tenants of being good characters. That just pisses off the players. Besides, vow of poverty peters off at higher levels when magic becomes more common.

As far as the favored soul getting one-shotted, it sounds like he's rushing off into combat or at least not focusing on defending himself so that the higher AC players (monk and druid) draw attacks away.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-26, 11:21 PM
How? He's asking for ways to challenge the party and I provided just that.

Don't remove vow of poverty if the players are adhering to the strict tenants of being good characters. That just pisses off the players. Besides, vow of poverty peters off at higher levels when magic becomes more common.

As far as the favored soul getting one-shotted, it sounds like he's rushing off into combat or at least not focusing on defending himself so that the higher AC players (monk and druid) draw attacks away.

No, he's asking how to challenge them without each fight feeling like a fight for their lives. Read the OP closely.

jmbrown
2009-07-26, 11:26 PM
No, he's asking how to challenge them without each fight feeling like a fight for their lives. Read the OP closely.

And I said "cater to their weaknesses, don't throw tons of monsters at them."

How is that "failing reading comprehension?" 20 monsters will make any 4 man team squeamish but 6 equal monsters + harsh terrain isn't?

And it's not like the combat is costing them much in the way of resources. One man fell and another was seriously injured. The party has two healers meaning they can feasibly get back up for another encounter or run away safely to rest up. If somebody had died then maybe the encounter was a bit too difficult but the party performed well enough to survive with at least half their resources used up. How's that not challenging?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-07-27, 01:07 AM
Note that Mage Armor does not stack with the VoP AC bonus, so if he's using that to buff his AC then you need to enforce the stacking rules.

I would throw some Dragonfire Adepts with Entangling Exhalation into the encounters. Say they use Endure Exposure on their allies every day so they can spam the entangles without having to worry about friendly fire. They don't need to make attack rolls or use invocations in combat, so give them decent armor with tower shields since nonproficiency won't matter.

Something as simple as a Kobold Dragonfire Adept 1 with an Ogre would make a decent challenge. The Kobold can have breastplate with a tower shield, and some sort of melee weapon just so he can make AoOs. He can do nothing but spam his breath weapon with Entangling Exhalation to keep them debuffed. The Ogre should have Iron Will and probably either Weapon Focus: Longsword or Cumbrous Will, and spend some of the Kobold's 1st level NPC wealth to give him a masterwork weapon with Breastplate and a heavy shield. If monsters can't hit the PCs, then make it just as hard for the PCs to hit the monsters, and you don't really want a lucky Color Spray to abruptly end the encounter.

You could seriously abuse the PCs' exalted status, such as making opponents surrender rather than fighting to the death. An exalted character would have to arrest them and take them back to stand trial for any crimes, and the prisoners would try to hinder their progress any way they could. They can try to escape when the PCs are distracted/fighting, lead them into traps, and even attack/grapple them during the next encounter.
"The orcs surrender." (they're honestly surrendering, they don't want to die)
"I roll Sense Motive!"
"You believe they're genuine about wanting to surrender rather than dying."
If the exalted characters execute them or allow them to be killed, they lose their exalted status. Orcs are fickle and chaotic-aligned, so they'll likely change their mind about surrendering if they see an opportunity to escape or to fight back and win.

Draz74
2009-07-27, 01:17 AM
Easy solutions to a couple of specific problems?

Drop the Favored Soul's Level Adjustment. Aasimar are weak at low levels, because their abilities really aren't worthy of being a level behind the party. And it sounds like he's not a particularly strong build anyway, so having a strong race (which Aasimar is, without LA) won't break anything. If you need to, give him some other minor penalty, like 1 less magic item than the rest of the party or losing his racial energy resistances for a little while. (You could consider doing all of this through the LA Buyoff Rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).)

Meanwhile, just ignore the hard-to-hit Monk. Eventually his party will get tired of him just doing insignificant damage while he dances around. If that's not enough, use attacks against him that will actually work, like no-save-just-suck battlefield control spells (the Dragonfire Adept mentioned by someone else is a good idea, but watch out for Evasion). Or just put some kind of time pressure on the party's combat encounters, maybe?

Forbiddenwar
2009-07-27, 01:37 AM
judging by the party: Traps. Lots of them. in combat! You can just download Tomb of Horrors for 3.5 for free at the WotC website now
(for ideas) :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, as others have stated don't just throw monsters at a party, you can craft other kinds of encounters, roleplaying, traps, skill obstacle courses, puzzles, riddles, diplomacy, mix them up so the party encounters combinations (fight and trap, skill obstacle course and fight, puzzle and trap(limiting amount of time to solve)).

For the monk issue, as Biffo said, enforce the rules of the game the ac bonus from VOP does NOT stack with the monk's AC bonus nor mage armor. You can also use monsters with weapon finesse, High Attack bonus and low damage. you can make one easily by just subtracting the str mod from the creatures attack and add the dex mod and you have a custom creature.

One idea (long term) you might take is see if you can get one to break their vows accidentally or on purpose. Failing that you can force them to break their VOPs with a Lodestone(DMG) (cursed magic item you can't get rid of!) or by a bonded intellegent item.

jmbrown
2009-07-27, 01:43 AM
One idea (long term) you might take is see if you can get one to break their vows accidentally or on purpose. Failing that you can force them to break their VOPs with a Lodestone(DMG) (cursed magic item you can't get rid of!) or by a bonded intellegent item.

It's going to be rather difficult. If these guys are playing by-the-book then they won't accept anything that isn't begged and even then it has to conform to the carrying limitations of the feat. If they want to donate their gold they have to do it on the behalf of other people. They can't physically touch the gold they're donating.

Furthermore they can't loophole this by having one character haul possessions on their behalf. Everything a VoP character "owns" or is entitled to must be donated at their earliest opportunity.

PId6
2009-07-27, 02:03 AM
For the monk issue, as Biffo said, enforce the rules of the game the ac bonus from VOP does NOT stack with the monk's AC bonus nor mage armor.
Actually, the monk's AC bonus is untyped so stacks with everything.

ericgrau
2009-07-27, 09:40 AM
Set up the campaign to include goals that need accomplishing rather than just fights that need winning. Maybe they need to get to some place and/or maybe they need to avoid fights to do so (but don't make the fights so overwhelming that you'll TPK if they accidentally do fight). Or set up arrow slits or some defense that puts a defensive party at a stand-still until they overcome it. i.e., force them onto the offense somehow.

Instead of trying to focus attack on the monk or "beat" the party's abilities, don't give the monsters special knowledge. First how would they get it and second you're just trying to pick on the PCs, and eventually they'll know it. Attack everyone equally and those with more defense will have to find ways to protect others or take down the baddies. From there just up the CR and let the party figure out the survival details - i.e., protecting those who die easily since they're the ones who can kill the harder enemies. But don't make every fight so dangerous. Vary it a bit. The average fight should consume 1/4 of the party's resources with little risk of death. But fights some are trivial, some are very hard, and some rare ones are overwhelming (make sure the PCs know somehow) so that PCs will want to run away.

IMO don't allow vow of poverty except for role-play purposes and even then watch the character carefully to make sure his stats aren't abused. If you think the monk is bad now, just you wait. And that'll also be true for the druid soon. The fact that both classes with low gear dependency are taking it should be a big red flag.

PId6
2009-07-27, 09:46 AM
IMO don't allow vow of poverty except for role-play purposes and even then watch the character carefully to make sure his stats aren't abused. If you think the monk is bad now, just you wait. And that'll also be true for the druid soon. The fact that both classes with low gear dependency are taking it should be a big red flag.
Actually, the monk is one of the most gear-dependent classes of all. He really needs a lot of things to be effective, such as flight, ways to overcome DR, etc, and even then the monk would be underwhelming. Since VoP provides much less than standard WBL overall, it'll just hurt him in the long run from an optimization standpoint.

Druid however, is a whole 'nother story.

ericgrau
2009-07-27, 09:53 AM
Perhaps the monk can gain a great deal from gear (though it tends to not be necessary in a well balanced party), but playing a monk with VoP is a well known cheesy trick that people do based on the assumption of lack of gear dependency. Especially outside of these boards where monks are not seen as the lamest of lame. In particular, it's an easy way to get a ridiculous AC as he seems to be attempting. And then the DM gets frustrated at sending things at him that can't touch him without being able to easily wipe out the other party members. Nevermind that the monk isn't doing much offensively. That's why I suggested that the DM not try to focus on killing the monk. Not just b/c that's unrealistic and will make the player think he's picking on him, but b/c it'll force the monk to branch out rather than stepping up his defenses even more to meet the challenge.

But basically applying VoP to both the monk and druid to avoid gear dependency are well known cheesy tricks leading to the exact problems that the DM is having and he should be aware. It's already happening with the monk and it will happen with the druid as soon as he gets wildshape. Dunno whether or not it's essential to address the problem, since the group seems to like beng powergamey. But the DM should at least know so he can tackle it other ways (by not giving in to the temptation to focus attacks on the monk, for example). Soon the wildshaped druid will have an unusually high AC to go with his already decent offense, so the DM should be prepared to bypass it with spells, force him into a grapple or other circumstances when AC don't matter, etc. It may not screw him but it would bring him back to par.

SinsI
2009-07-27, 10:01 AM
How about some encounters with non-lethal damage?
Protect someone from a bar brawl, join a fighting competition,
participate in a verbal duel...

PId6
2009-07-27, 10:24 AM
Perhaps the monk can gain a great deal from gear (though it tends to not be necessary in a well balanced party), but playing a monk with VoP is a well known cheesy trick that people do based on the assumption of lack of gear dependency. Especially outside of these boards where monks are not seen as the lamest of lame.
A point. It may be bad for them but they still think it's good. If the DM thinks they're only taking VoP for the benefits, I'd suggest showering the party with rewards to teach them a lesson. It doesn't even have to be wealth or mechanically powerful items; any of the cool magic items from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119169) would be fine. It'd have the added benefit of helping them roleplay their feat a little better, since they'd actually feel what their character is suffering in not keeping wealth. :smallamused:

On a side note, giving items away is usually a good way to balance the party. If the favored soul dies too easily, drop an item that grants divine casters +4 to Con or something. Consequentially, it's one of the main complaints against VoP, that VoP takes away the DM's power to shore up the party's weaknesses. If a VoP monk is the party's weak link, there's nothing the DM can do to to repair the problem, short of heavy fiat, since he can't give items to balance out the problem.

Darcand
2009-07-27, 01:08 PM
Do nothing at all! Seriously, change nothing. Let's break it down.
Your Favored Soul keeps using up hitpoints, your Monk keeps using up spells, someone has to be healing said dying Soul which means your Druid is using up spells too. Your Beguiler is a loot horder and by not spending that money on new resources he is not adding his full potential to the party.

Your goal as a DM when building encounters should not be to threaten your party with death every minute of every day, instead each fight should slowly wear them down, using up twenty to twenty five percent of their available resources.

Toliudar
2009-07-27, 01:22 PM
To amplify some of the points above: not every monster is interested in killing the PC's. Trickster fey, social encounters that the beguiler can diplomance his way through. Animals that the druid can try to befriend instead of stab. Wilderness adventures that involve survival challenges.

I'd also point out that, with a build like Monk1/Sorc2, it's entirely likely that someone was just using the monk to make their sorcerer less squishy, and that in higher levels they'll rely more on their spells.

Good luck!

Umael
2009-07-27, 02:54 PM
Might I suggest something a little more complicated than a simple "fight-the-monster" scenario?

For example, have a merchant (or someone similar) hire the PCs to guard a caravan. Tell them that the route is dangerous and that the merchant wants to beef up this caravan. On the way, the PCs find all kinds of problems.

If they are going through a desert, hit them with a sandstorm. If you don't have the book for the rules, wing it. After they weather the storm, make sure you describe how there is sand in their clothing, sand in their tents, sand in food, etc. - make them sick of the sand.

If they are going through the mountains, have it be a blizzard. Instead of sand getting everywhere, it's snow - less toxic but no less dangerous and annoying.

Have the other merchant guards invite them for a friendly game of cards. Since you have two PCs with VoP, have them play for "favors". If someone loses, they have to do something silly or humiliating (stand on your head, yodelling, or maybe kiss one of the horses) - use your judgement, of course. Don't forget that at least one of the guards should be cheating.

Let one of the PCs find a stowaway. Have the stowaway beg and beg for the PC not to turn her in. As DM, point out how far away from anything remotely civilized they are, and how dangerous the area is. Have the stowaway become smitten with the PC for being her hero (again, use your judgement). Then, at the worst moment, have one of the other guards find the stowaway - with the PC - and the guard recognizes the stowaway as the merchant's daughter!

Throughout all of this, the caravan keeps getting attacked. Make it hungry wolves or jackals or some natural animal that can take advantage of the terrain. Sure, the PCs can defend THEMSELVES, but can they defend the other caravan guards, or worst, one of the horses? Fake them out. What happens when they hear wolves (or jackals) the next night, or maybe one of the guards just keeps insisting that he saw a wolf. Suddenly, one of the horses gets spooked, breaks free, and runs off into the night. What do the PCs do? Chase it down? Let it go? Send the best rider after it? Tell the caravan master they will guard the caravan?

Keep coming up with attacks, becoming more and more "intelligent". Bandits who harass them with a shower of arrows and then fade into the night. Shallow pits that are dug in front of the caravan, causing the horses to fall in. Maybe the ambushers will attack.

Then one of the caravan wagons breaks. Investigation reveals that it was sabotaged. It had to be one of the guards, but who? And why?


WARNING!!! This next part involves you knowing that your players won't get upset by this.

Finally, just hours away from their destination, they are attacked by a much larger and more powerful force. They ride over the dunes or through the trees, casting sleep and web spells, brandishing their swords and screaming:

"Die, evil-doers!"

???

Evil-doers? Wait, what?? They mean us?!!??

As the enraged 6th-level barbarian charges them, the equally powerful paladin is right behind him, screaming at the half-orc that they don't want fatalities, they want prisoners, live prisoners! The 6th-level monk lets loose with a Stunning Blow, then from the back, the invisible rogue Sneak Attacks with a sap.

When the barbarian takes down one of the PCs and stands over the fallen body (hopefully, one that is not killed), the paladin interfers with the coup de grace and forces the barbarian to back down (and will heal the fallen PC, if needed).

By now, the leader of the NPC adventurers shows up, a cleric of Pelor, and demands their surrender, promising they will be treated fairly. Backed by a wizard, it seems clear that the party is outnumbered and outpowered. Hopefully, they will surrender.

Whereupon, the cleric will demand to know what they are doing transporting... what? Stolen goods? Drugs? Magic jars full of the souls of children? Secret plans for the rebel Death St... er... battle plans against a tyrant?

It becomes clear now. The PCs have been sent to guard valuable illegal, immoral, and evil goods, sent by the quite evil merchant. Worse, when the caravans are searched, they find the most important caravan... empty. Did someone take the goods already? Who was it and where did they go? Or was it even there in the first place - that the caravan was nothing more than a ruse, a decoy?

The next step would be for the NPC adventurers to talk to the PCs, properly apologize ("Sorry, we thought you were willingly working with the forces of evil at first..."), maybe heal them back up to full, even give them the money and the directions to the nearest temple for a ressurrection ("Yeah, that's coming out of the half-orc's salary"), and possibly enlist them in a quest to vanquish evil.

Hopefully by then, they will have leveled once or twice and aren't nearly so easy to break.

13_CBS
2009-07-27, 03:12 PM
*Adventures made of win*

...you wouldn't be willing to host a Pbp game here, would you? :smallbiggrin:

Epinephrine
2009-07-27, 03:28 PM
Weapon Finesse opponents can have high bonuses to hit, yet deal little damage (oops, mentioned already, but it bears repeating).

Foes like Kenku that use their superior flanking (+4 when flanking) to gain an impressive advantage unless the PCs control the combat. Feel free to make up feats, or to take feats that are a little odd - there are a couple of pack-fighting feats that can be great when applied to a pack of wolves or a horde of little goblin-types.

Put a buffing foe who isn't great at damage in charge of a host of others - the kobold singing in the bushes is giving all his little buddies (who have weapon finesse) bonuses to hit and damage.

The advantages of catching foes flat-footed, of flanking them, and of hitting them while they are prone can't be over-emphasised. One of the worst situations our party of about that level got into was facing wolves that aided each other, flanked, and used their attacks (which tripped). Waste the PCs AoOs and then do a take-down; prone, flanked monks are easier to hit.

And all the other stuff mentioned above...

only1doug
2009-07-27, 03:32 PM
Add a dragon shaman to some of your fights (re-occuring villain perhaps?) one of the dragon shaman aura's causes enemies to take damage whenever they hit an ally (within 30')... so the monk can flurry of blows to beat himself to death.

Have the dragon shaman flee when his minions get depleted.

Umael
2009-07-27, 03:56 PM
...you wouldn't be willing to host a Pbp game here, would you? :smallbiggrin:

Sadly, no. I'm sorry. It's mostly a time thing, that and I would rather play in one first to get the hang of how it is different from pen 'n paper (and how a PbP game would work in the Playground - particularly the die-rolling).

(For the record, I am quite flattered by the request out-of-the-blue.)

Another_Poet
2009-07-27, 04:17 PM
Don't forget touch/ranged touch attacks, area effects, poison gases, contact poisons, and all other manner of special attacks versus the high-AC monk.

The favoured soul has kind of dug his own grave by playing a favoured soul, but one thing he has going for him is buff spells. He really shouldn't be getting knocked out all the time, so encourage him to use tactics and make sure that the PCs sometimes know they're getting into a fight ahead of time, so they can buff.

Large groups of weak enemies can Aid Another on attack roll to score a hit on the monk, too.