Bard Question [3.5]

[olelia]

Okay...mostly need critiquing/opinions on my bard build. The design is so he can help just about anywhere. Starting level 11. Basically every book is allowed as long as we don't go pun pun.

32 point buy

Str: 10
Dex: 10
Con: 12
Int: 15
Wis: 8
Cha: 18

Name:Jack
Race: Silverbrow Human
Variants:Healing Hymn, Bardic Knack
Level 1: Bard (Feats: Dragon Fire Inspiration, Lingering song)
Level 2: Bard
Level 3: Bard (Feat: SnowFlake WarDance
Level 4: Bard +1 Cha
Level 5: Bard
Level 6: Bard (Feat:Words of Creation)
Level 7: Bard
Level 8: Bard +1 Cha
Level 9: Bard (Feat: Song of the Heart)
Level 10: Bard
Level 11: Factotum

Okay...so that's the basics. My main question is with the vest of legends is there much point going past bard 9? I know raising my bard level will help certain things like with Crystal Echoblade and Bardic knack, or should I consider another dip in another class?

[PId6]

If you want to be as effective as possible, have you thought about sublime chord (Complete Arcane)? If you stay in bard, you start qualifying at level 11, and you'll end up with much better spellcasting than a plain bard, eventually reaching 9th level spells.

Also, Jack?

[olelia]

The name is in spite of the feat Jack of All trades. Since I'm taking factotum I currently would have 5 ranks in any skill in existence.

[Melamoto]

As PID6 said, Sublime Chord is a good choice as it makes you into a true caster. You could also go for the Seeker of the Song as it would grant healing and the power to stop casters dead in their tracks, although it requires a number of levels to be effective and it's offensive abilities do not scale (So don't pick it if you'll be going up to very high levels).
There are support classes, like the War Chanter for buffing melee types, or the Virtuoso for charming. Or, if you want to not bother with music, you could always take a look at the Mindbender.

[ericgrau]

Am I missing some charisma dependent ability that's making you pump cha so high? You are not a primary spellcaster, so being a mental giant while having the physical stats of a commoner seems like a bad idea. And your spell save DCs aren't going to be very high anyway, nor are the spells using them all that strong to be using within combat. But if you do become a better caster, as suggested, then you'll find more use for pumping charisma. I'd at least pump con and dex for defense even if you only plan on buffing & rolling knowledge checks without fighting at all. The minimum cha you need to cast spells is 10 + spell level, and some of that can come from items. I'd consider cha for spells and int for skills to be nice extras that you just get enough of after you focus on other things. For spells pick ones that are good regardless of level and that either don't have a save (including those that target allies), trigger multiple saves or still do something useful even if the baddy makes their save. Again, all this changes if you grab some abilities that are more heavily dependent on charisma or if you become a full caster. You seem like a buffing focus so I'd see what your buffing abilities require then besides that get defense. If you still have combat rounds leftover then figure out what else you'd be doing. If it's attacking, you may want a decent str or dex so you can hit something. Though with a mid BAB you may want to try other things.

Other secondary roles you might want to branch out to as a bard are:
whip tripper: Requires strength. You'll have the same trip check as any fighter tripper.
morning stat buffer: For example heroism. Useful even at high levels.
combat non-stat buffer: For example haste. Useful even at high levels.
magic item crafter: Arms & armor works well since there's less pre-reqs. Skill boosting armor & rings are also a good bard option. You get the same crafting caster level as a full caster.
skillmonkey/scout/etc.: Just be prepared to rely on your party when you do find danger. You do have the same max ranks as a rogue, a good class skill list and plenty of skill points.

[Douglas]

Make sure you pick up a Badge of Valor (MIC, it's part of one of the sets) and Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium). Also get a masterwork instrument of some sort from Complete Adventurer. That should get your Inspire Courage up to +9, plus an instrument.

[PId6]

Am I missing some charisma dependent ability that's making you pump cha so high? You are not a primary spellcaster, so being a mental giant while having the physical stats of a commoner seems like a bad idea. And your spell save DCs aren't going to be very high anyway, nor are the spells using them all that strong to be using within combat.
Why? Glitterdust, illusions, Slow, bard has plenty of nice debuffs that can use a well-pumped save DC. Either way, he should stay out of melee anyway, and a bard's generally most effective in singing and casting support.

Let's say with a base 20 Cha, +4 from item, and the Slow spell, that's a save DC of 20, which is nothing to scoff at especially against melee-based creatures with low will saves, and he can hit several at once. A little extra AC or hp is nice, but if he has the points for it, the extra DC can end up more helpful for the party as a whole. However, I'd take away the last point in Int in exchange for +2 to Con. Extra Int from levels is really not worth it when skill point gains aren't retroactive.

[tiercel]

Well.... Snowflake Wardance only works in melee. While it seems an attractive way to replace Str/Dex with Cha for combat, do you really want to take a Dex 10 Con 12 bard into melee? If you're going to crank your Cha that hard I'm a bit tempted to say, well heck, just load up on some pearls of power and concentrate on music and spellcasting, and forget about wardancing. (Would give you another feat to play with, plus free up the Perform(dance) ranks, unless your DM is going to houserule in dancing to activate bardic music.)

Heck, if you *are* going to crank spellcasting, as nice as a Factotum dip for Cunning Insight can be it's just slowing your already-slow casting progression.

Personally, I tend to invest a little bit in physical abilities, if nothing else just to play backup archer. For the cost of dropping initial Cha from 18 to 16 (hardly gimping your Cha), you could have a 14 Dex and Con instead.

Also, I tend to like Bardic Knowledge, just because not only does it kind of already work as Bardic Knack for many Knowledge checks (though with a higher roll), but it also works as Knowledge (random). (Plus I find that being able to make only low DC checks with random skills not that useful in most games I've played in. YMMV.)

While Words of Creation is an obvious bardic music buffer, you better make sure you really know your DM -- WoC is an Exalted feat, which means you are supposed to have a Code of Conduct that makes a paladin's look like a list of playground rules for kindergarteners. If your DM is going to actually enforce this, make sure you are comfortable with playing this Good of a character and watch out for moral dilemmas.

[ericgrau]

Why? Glitterdust, illusions, Slow, bard has plenty of nice debuffs that can use a well-pumped save DC. Either way, he should stay out of melee anyway, and a bard's generally most effective in singing and casting support.

Let's say with a base 20 Cha, +4 from item, and the Slow spell, that's a save DC of 20, which is nothing to scoff at especially against melee-based creatures with low will saves, and he can hit several at once. A little extra AC or hp is nice, but if he has the points for it, the extra DC can end up more helpful for the party as a whole. However, I'd take away the last point in Int in exchange for +2 to Con. Extra Int from levels is really not worth it when skill point gains aren't retroactive.

And a lower spell level which lowers the save DC compared to other characters. Glitterdust or slow which affects multiple targets are nice, as are illusions which you only get a save on if you interact with them. But those are good precisely because a slightly lower save DC doesn't matter as much. But if other save-dependant spells are your focus then you really gotta ask yourself, "Why didn't I play a sorcerer?" And if you're playing a bunch of songs or using no-save buffs spells or w/e and only have a little time for save spells, then why so much cha? Cha is nice for a bard, but not his focus. If it's not a secondary stat then I'd make it one among multiple main stats. Practically dumping everything else except int like the OP did is suicide.

[Mongoose87]

Am I missing some charisma dependent ability that's making you pump cha so high?

Every bonus spell is another Alter Fortune you can cast.

[ericgrau]

Just 1 per modifier. Do you really need 1 or 2 more? Vs., say, having a ton more HP & AC so you live long enough to use your abilities. Or having another option like tripping? Or skillmonkey options (which he already has). Or etc. At the very least there shouldn't be such an extreme disparity in his stats. He could give up 2 points of cha for a large boost in another 1-2 abilities.

[Frosty]

Eh. If you want more fighting abilities, why not take Song of the White Raven and start taking Warblade levels? Some maneuvers can work with ranged weapons. If you take up archery, and get Rapid Shot and whatnot, remember that *each arrow* you fire will be affected by Dragonfire Inspiration.