Magic: The Gathering III - These Planes Are Made For Walkin'

[Johnny Blade]

Let's start this off with Uncle Festy's excellent work:


http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/Planeswalkers.pnghttp://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/Uncle_Festy/AkromaBanner.png


Yes, he takes requests. Sometimes.


Now that everyone is appropriately awe-struck, I announce the third Magic: The Gathering thread to be open.
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters, the absolute glory that is Elder Dragon Highlander, whatever you can think of.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We're pretty casual players around here anyway.



If you particularly like one of your decks, it can be immortalized as a part of the list in the upcoming spoiler. Just say so. Repeatedly if I forget to add it.
Our deck gallery so far:


Shas'aia Toriia's RDW Flamekin
Creatures
4x Nova Chaser (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140239)
4x Incandescent Soulstoke (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139730)
4x Smokebraider (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139465)
4x Flamekin Harbinger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139463)
4x Flamekin Bladewhirl (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140343)
4x Vengeful Firebrand (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153153)
2x Changeling Berserker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145804)
2x Brighthearth Banneret (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152651)
2x Sootstoke Kindler (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153989)
1x Stigma Lasher (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153049)

Other Spells
4x Lash Out (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=145987)
4x Flame Javelin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189220)
2x Soul's Fire (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)

Land
17x Mountain (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190585)
2x Ghitu Encampment (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106564)


That deck focuses on getting the kill as fast as possible, and is an extremely simple deck to play - I gave it to my mom, and she managed to beat me with it, twice out of three games. The other one was multiplayer, and did manage to take down somebody else before I did the same to her.
It has a very good record, wins most games it plays and consistenly trounces my Faerie deck.

Start the game off by playing Flamekin Harbinger to tutor up either Nova Chaser or the Soulstoke, depending on what you need more. Then play Smokebraider for some cheap mana. Play Incandescent Soulstoke turn three, and up to 3 Nova Chasers through the Soulstoke's ability turn 4 for the win. :smallbiggrin:
If they somehow survive this, just champion Flamekin Harbinger, fling your Nova Chasers and Changeling Berserkers at the opponent. When they do, search up a new one and do it again! Vengeful Firebrand is great end game. He'll likely have haste from one of the many warriors in the deck, and his firebreathing effect quickly escalates from Smokebraider's ability.


Conspiring Ultimatums
A truly magical, non-budget deck by tgva88892 Maelstrom Archangel (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185136)
3 Wort, the Raidmother (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147379)
4 Birds of Paradise (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129906)
4 Sprouting Thrinax (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)

1 Cruel Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175079)
1 Violent Ultimatum (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175135)
1 Conflux (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179437)
1 Spitting Image (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=154261)
1 Din of the Fireherd (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146733)
4 Naya Charm (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=137905)
4 Fertile Ground (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139502)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=140205)
2 Lavalanche (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180612)
4 Maelstrom Pulse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180613)
1 Cloven Casting (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189653)
2 Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301)

4 Vivid Crag (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141882)
4 Vivid Grove (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=141879)
4 Reflecting Pool (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152158)
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
5 Forest

Gameplay:
When playing this deck, it's important to survive the early game. Once you get into the late game, any deck without an abundance of counterspells will suddenly be faced with an onslaught of powerful spells. Between the 5 game-winners, one being a repeatable spell, the 4 Naya Charms, and the 3 Primal Commands and 4 Cone of Flames to control the game a bit, this deck should have no problem pushing through a late-game backbreaker. Maelstrom Archangel is there to help you push through some spells; after all, it's not very likely you'll be able to play two Ultimatums in one turn, is it?

In terms of your early game, the key to surviving is to play Sprouting Thrinax, Naya Charm, and Cone of Flame as much as possible to slow down your foe. In addition, don't be afraid to take a bit of damage; you can afford to go down to 10 or even 5 before you're really in dire straits. The Primal Commands can gain you some important life early on, and it's not uncommon to be casting Maelstrom Archangel on turn 5 if it's in your opener, so the Angel can act as a last-ditch blocker if need be. Garruk's Beast tokens are also extremely helpful in surviving to your big guns, and Garruk himself provides you some acceleration that can get you there faster.

Naya Charm is truly your ace in the hole. Acting as Regrowth, Lash Out, and a fourth of Cryptic Command is truly something amazing. However, don't be afraid to spend Naya Charm early on. If you get Wort up and running, you can recycle your Naya Charms with your other cards extremely easily.

Remember, the objective with this deck is to conspire ridiculous spells for ridiculous fun. If you're about to lose, don't be afraid to Conspire Conflux and show off your deck in a glorious fashion. It's all about making big explosions, after all!


Mirrinus' "Norg"Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cloud%20Sprite)
4 Spellstutter Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Spellstutter%20Sprite)
4 Pestermite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Pestermite)
3 Thieving Sprite (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Thieving%20Sprite)
3 Latchkey Faerie (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Latchkey%20Faerie)
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Ninja%20of%20the%20Deep%20Ho urs)

Instants:
4 Mana Leak (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak)
4 Agony Warp (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Agony%20Warp)
3 Rend Flesh (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Rend%20Flesh)
2 Condescend (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Condescend)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Terramorphic%20Expanse)
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mistblade%20Shinobi)
3 Echoing Truth (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Echoing%20Truth)
3 Negate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Negate)
3 Remove Soul (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Remove%20Soul)
4 Peppersmoke (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Peppersmoke)

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.


Mirrinus' Pauper MWCDeck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?id=159188)
3 Shade of Trokair (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=shade%20of%20trokair)
4 Noble Templar (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Noble%20Templar)

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Judge%20Unworthy)
3 Dawn Charm (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Dawn%20Charm)
3 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
4 Fire at Will (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Fire%20at%20Will)
4 Unmake (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Unmake)

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring)
2 Faith's Fetters (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Faith's%20Fetters)

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Secluded%20Steppe)

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Protection:%20 Red)
1 Circle of Protection: Black (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=circle%20of%20protection:%20 black)
4 Kami of Ancient Law (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Kami%20of%20Ancient%20Law)
1 Holy Light (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Holy%20Light)
1 Cenn's Enlistment (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cenn's%20Enlistment)
4 Relic of Progenitus (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Relic%20of%20Progenitus)

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.


Mirrinus' Mirror Sheen combo
Format: Extended, preferably for 2HG

Creatures
4 Drift of Phantasms (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Drift%20of%20Phantasms)
4 Plumeveil (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Plumeveil)

Enchantments
3 Mirror Sheen (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Mirror%20Sheen)

Instants
3 Swerve (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Swerve)
4 Hinder (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Hinder)
4 Electrolyze (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Electrolyze)
1 Oona's Grace (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=oona's%20grace)

Sorceries
4 Compulsive Research (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Compulsive%20Research)
3 Conflagrate (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Conflagrate)
2 Cone of Flame (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Cone%20of%20Flame)
1 Walk the Aeons (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Walk%20the%20Aeons)

Artifacts
4 Izzet Signet (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=izzet%20signet)

Lands
4 Vivid Creek (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Creek)
4 Vivid Crag (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Vivid%20Crag)
4 Izzet Boilerworks (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?name=Izzet%20Boilerworks)
1 Mountain
10 Islands

So, what does this deck do? At its core, this deck is made to abuse Mirror Sheen with various effects that can target me. Beneficial effects like Compulsive Research, Oona's Grace, and Walk the Aeons can be spread to both myself and my teammate, especially in MTGO 2HG, where turns are taken separately. Meanwhile, burn spells like Electrolyze, Cone of Flame, and Conflagrate can spread their damage to point just 1 damage at me, allowing me to copy them as well.

My plan is to lay down some beefy blockers and control the board with versatile burn while building up mana and drawing cards for both me and my partner. Lots of card drawing spells plus Drift of Phantasms allows me to quickly find Mirror Sheen, while Hinder (my counterspell of choice in extended) and Swerve protect me and my flagship enchantment. With Mirror Sheen on the board, most of my spells become super-charged. Eventually, I will seek to win the game with a huge, crazy turn. Most commonly, I'll flashback Conflagrate for just 2 mana, discarding my hand of 7-8 cards and targetting myself with just 1 point of its damage, then pump all of my mana into copying that huge Conflagrate. With 8 mana available and 7 cards in hand, that's 20 damage divided as I choose, perfect for eliminating all blockers for my partner's alpha strike, or just sending it all to the dome. Or I can copy Walk the Aeons (and buy it back) before this too. Either way, my other goal is to supercharge my partner's deck, which I hope will make the game very fun for both of us. Most players appreciate being given extra cards and turns, right?

I still have no idea what I would do for the sideboard, as that doesn't usually come up for 2HG, but it might matter if I take the deck out for a spin in 1-on-1 duels, where it'd play more like a combo deck with heavy control elements. I'm also not sure about a few individual choices. Should I run cheaper burn that can't synergize well with Mirror Sheen? Are more board sweepers necessary? Do I have enough defense to avoid being run over in the early game? Is my mana base stable enough to support UUU for Plumeveil and RR in Cone of Flame and Conflagrate, or should I cut the Cone of Flames? Is Cone of Flames even worth 5 mana? Is Swerve any good at all? (It can counter counterspells by changing their target!)



Mirrinus' Game of Life
Format: Extended, both duels and FFA

Creatures
4 Leonin Squire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=72722)
4 Trinket Mage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=50163)
1 Auriok Salvagers (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51166)
2 Magus of the Disk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=126298)
3 Mulldrifter (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189217)
3 Shriekmaw (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=146175)
3 Twilight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152060)

Artifacts
4 Chromatic Star (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=135279)
1 Voyager Staff (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88991)
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48214)
1 Æther Spellbomb (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48113)
1 Wayfarer's Bauble (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=51110)
1 Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895)
1 Dispeller's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174830)

Instants
4 Momentary Blink (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=109733)
3 Makeshift Mannequin (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=139670)

Lands
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
4 Flagstones of Trokair (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=116733)
1 Mistveil Plains (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142014)
1 Azorious Chancery
1 Orzhov Basilica
7 Plains
3 Island
2 Swamp

This deck is built around my personal favorite creature, Twilight Shepherd. It started out as a simple WUB blink deck, but then morphed into a toolbox-style deck revolving around 1-mana artifacts. Nearly every single card syngergizes with Twilight Shepherd. Any of the sacrificed artifacts can be returned to my hand with the angel's ability, evoke becomes absurd when the angel activates, CIP creatures play nicely with her, and wiping the board with Magus of the Disk tends to be rather one-sided when all my stuff comes back to me, including the Magus himself! But the star of the deck is Voyager Staff combined with Twilight Shepherd, which basically lets me pay 3 mana each turn to ensure that any permanent that goes to my graveyard that turn gets returned to my hand. That includes lands like Terramorphic Expanse and Flagstones of Trokair as well (hence the high number of basic lands to fetch). Mannequin and Momentary Blink both ensure that my angel is never rid of permanently, and Trinket Mage tutors for the Staff right when I need it, or for any other silver bullet artifact. The sideboard includes stuff like Relic of Progenitus, to hose even more strategies. Lack of artifact lands is due to anti-synergy with the Magus. It's a fun deck with an insane amount of resiliance, as that angel is almost impossible to ever get rid of permanently, thanks to the massive amount of blink and recursion in the deck.


Mirrinus' Countersliver
Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=97101)
4 Bant Sureblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188975)
4 Deft Duelist (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175121)
4 Ethercaste Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179542)
4 Esper Stormblade (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188968)

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=183005)

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106654)

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122324)
4 Mana Leak (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83160)
3 Remove Soul (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129699)
3 Hindering Light (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=177598)

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129881)
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=5134) as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158749). Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185141).


Graymayre's Ella Enchanted
Creatures:
Dowsing Shaman (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=88968) X2
Gatherer of Graces (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96877) X4
Gruul Guildmage (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=96837) X1
Flaring Flame-kin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111247) X4
Slith Firewalker (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189222) X1
Spikeshot Goblin (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46103) X1
Thran Golem (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83202) X1
Yavimaya Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=130515) X4
Verduran Enchantress (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83320) X1

Enchantments:
Ancestral Mask (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19634) X2
Beastmaster's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=107689) X4
Crown of Flames (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=23074) X1
Exoskeletal Armor (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X1
Fencer's Magemark (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=29885) X4
Fists of Ironwood (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83672) X1
Lightning Talons (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176446) X2
Treetop Bracers (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129777) X1
Uncontrollable Anger (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=134756) X1
Web (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83994) X1

Instants:
Grab the Reins (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=49435) X1
Naturalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174890) X2
Vitalize (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=14667) X1

Land:
Forest X10
Mountain X10
Skarrg, the Rage Pits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=6088350) X2


Oh Lawd, my now seasoned Magic: The Gathering (tm) mind cries when it sees all of these X1's! As some people can guess, this isn't the most... stable of decks.

But, boy howdy, is it fun to play! The creatures it can manufacturer are always loaded with power. This is mostly from all of the synergy. My enchanted creatures make other enchanted creatures more powerful (and in the case of magemarks, give them extra abilities!).

Plus, it's fairly fast. Personal clicks can attest to its ability of bringing out big baddies in a relatively short amount of time.

However, I could always do with making it faster. In fact, this deck is in dire need of optimization, so I will acquiesce to your greater abilities playground if you would deign to help me. :smalltongue:


SoD's Naya DeckLittle Creatures:
Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/50.html)x1
Druid of the Anima (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/128.html)x2
Naya Hushblade (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/141.html)x3
Stun Sniper (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/100.html)x4
Wild Nacatl (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/152.html)x4 (1 foil)
Big creatures;
Hamletback Goliath (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/173.html)x1
Mossbridge Troll (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/123.html)x1 (1 foil)
Mycoid Shepherd (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/73.html)x1
Mycoloth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/140.html)x3
Spearbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/150.html)x1
Spellbreaker Behemoth (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/60.html)x
Vigor (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/240.html)x2
Wooly Thoctar (http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Woolly%20Thoctar)x4
Artifacts:
Behemoth Sledge (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/65.html)x1
Mage Slayer (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/57.html)x2
Enchantements:
Happy Song (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/121.html)x1
Oblivion Ring (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/20.html)x1
Instants;
Path to Exile (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/15.html)x2
Volcanic Fallout (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/74.html)x1
Sorcer...Sorcery's? Sorceries? Sorceri? Sorceri, yeah. That sounds good. Sorceri:
None.
Planeswalkers:
Ajani Vengeant (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/154.html)x1
Lands:
Fire-Lit Thicket (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/271.html)x1
Forestx4
Jungle Shrine (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/226.html)x4
Mountainx4 (2 foil)
Naya Panorama (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/227.html)x1
Plainsx3
Wooded Bastion (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/281.html)x1
Vivid Crag (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/275.html)x2
Vivid Grove (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/277.html)x1

Fun Combinations; Double Vigor. Need I say more? Happy Song (Mayael's Aria) (at begining of upkeep, stuff, then win the game if you control creature with power 20 or greater) combined with Mossbridge Troll (tap a bunch of creatures, Mossbridge Troll gets +20/+20 til end of turn.
Mycoloth.
Another Mycoloth.
Spellbreaker Behemoth's to stop your big things from getting countered.
Spearbreaker Behemoth to stop them getting killed.
Vigor to make them tougher.
Hamletback Goliath+Mycoloth. I spawn more Saprolings. My Hamletback gets bigger.

I'm trying to work out what to remove for a Windbrisk Raptor (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/26.html) and a Rage Reflection (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/104.html). Any suggestions?
And secondly; Foily Noble Hierach.


Narkis' Dastardly Devour DeckCreatures

4 X Tukatongue Thallid (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=184995)
4 X Sprouting Thrinax (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174863)
2 X Hissing Iguanar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174873)
2 X Thorn-Thrash Viashino (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175064)
4 X Mycoloth (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174975)
2 X Predator Dragon (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174968)

Other Spells

4 X Bone Splinters (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174967)
4 X Fate Transfer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=147411)
4 X Dragon Fodder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174936)
2 X Soul's Fire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174951)
4 X Morbid Bloom (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179614)

Lands

4 X Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877)
2 X Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
2 X Firewild Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188974)
6 X Forest
6 X Mountain
4 X Swamp




Flame Master Axel's RWBLightning Reaver (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180617) x2
Demigod of Revenge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153972) x2
Hellspark Elemental (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174799) x3
Hell's Thunder (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176455) x2
Termiante (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=176449) x3
Blightning (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174917) x4
Tidehollow Sculler (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175054) x2
Wall of Reverence (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189874) x2
Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179235) x3
Ajani Vengeant (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174852)
Thought Hemorrhage (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180596) x2
Bitminous Blast (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=185057)
Cerodon Yearling (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180604) x2
Anathemancer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179538) x2
Mogg Fanatic (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=157925) x2
Sewn-Eye Drake (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179594)
Demonspine Whip (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180311)
Intimidation Bolt (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179568)
Slave of Bolas (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=188971)
Volcanic Fallout (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180274)
Pyroclasm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129801)
Guttural Respone (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158773)

Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640)
Savage Lands (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174877) x2
Jungle Shrine (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=175060) x2
Rupture Spire (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=142301) x2
Fetid Heath (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=153446)
Battlefield Forge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=129479)
Swamp x4
Mountain x4
Plains x3


Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control
Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/86.html)
4x Graveborn Muse (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/145.html)
2x Shimian Specter (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/76.html)
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/149.html)

Instants (4)
4x Mortify (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/28.html)

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html)

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/al/en/13.html)
4x Vindicate (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/126.html) (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/34.html)until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict (http://magiccards.info/fnmp/en/82.html)
2x Wrath of God (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/61.html)
2x Damnation (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/85.html)

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/157.html)
4x Fetid Heath (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/176.html)
4x Caves of Koilos (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/350.html)
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/283.html)
1x Eiganjo Castle (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/275.html)
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/162.html)
3x Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html)
2x Forbidding Watchtower (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/352.html)
2x Swamp (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/238.html)
1x Plains (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/283.html)

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is. :smallamused:



MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/53.html) x2
Mulldrifter (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/76.html) x3
Mournwhelk (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/127.html) x3
Shriekmaw (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/139.html) x3
Spitebellows (http://magiccards.info/mt/en/105.html) x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/41.html) x3
Stingscourger (http://magiccards.info/pc/en/107.html) x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/230.html) x3
Cauldron of Souls (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/248.html) x3
Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) x3
Armillary Sphere (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/134.html) x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/175.html) x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/61.html) x2
Turn to Mist (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/155.html) x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/142.html)
Coalition Relic (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/161.html)
Cruel Ultimatum (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/164.html) x3
River Kelpie (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/49.html) x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes (http://magiccards.info/on/en/218.html) x2
Dawn of the Dead (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/59.html)
Tar Fiend (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/89.html) x2
Footbottom Feast (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/115.html) x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them. :smallbiggrin:

As you can see, some info about how you play the deck is preferred.
Also, it should be noted that this list was maintained by Shas'aia Toriia so far, who did a great job.

[Johnny Blade]

Okay, so this is just in case...space reserved.

Yeah, I'm a pretty smart guy, huh? :smallcool:

So, past topics and links to MtG-related websites that used to be in the first post until the deck gallery got a new entry:


Past topics:
Magic: the Gathering (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84019)
Magic: the Gathering II - Planeswalkers in the Playground - (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111185)



List of MtG-related websites:
The official site. (http://www.wizards.com/magic/) From here you can reach:
The page for Magic Online (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnline.aspx), if you want to give it a try. Note that, while you have to pay/trade for cards, there are bots who give them away for free. I don't have any experience with this, but there are people posting in this thread that do.
The DCI (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/welcome), for organized play.
Gatherer (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx), WotC's card search.

magiccards.info (http://magiccards.info/), another place to waste lots of time browsing through cards. It doesn't have the user ratings and comments of Gatherer, but lists the prices of several online vendors and, surprisingly, has more card images. The interface is also better in my opinion.

MTGSalvation (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/). That place has a lot of stuff, including a wiki, a huge forum, and many articles of varying quality.

StarCityGames (http://www.starcitygames.com/) - they make you pay for much of their newer content, but what you can get for free is certainly good enough.

Elder Dragon Highlander (http://www.dragonhighlander.net/rules.php), the official page. Very...Spartan design, but that means functionality. Always up to date and it has a forum about this popular variant multiplayer format as well.

Le Bestiaire (http://draft.bestiaire.org/), an online draft simulator. It gives you some pretty odd ratings sometimes, but at least there is actual feedback.

Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com/), a program for...a lot of things, including collection management and online play. Supports more TCGs than just Magic. There's a freeware version available.

Deckcheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/), where you can see which decks have tournament success. The decks are essentially named by the people who play them, and if you're looking for, say, Legacy decks, you'll soon find out that not all tournaments are really at Pro Tour level, but this is still an invaluable site for anyone who wants to keep up with the tournament scene.

[mikeejimbo]

Right. Regarding False Dawn (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/10.html), from what the official text says now, looks like it doesn't synergize with Springjack Shepherd (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/15.html). Sad. :smallfrown:

[Duos]

My twisted mind recently spawned a blue/green Darksteel Reactor deck. It's pretty weak, but has some potential. If anyone wants the decklist, I could give post it.

[Johnny Blade]

Sudden thought: would giving a creature who has Persist another instance of Persist, cause both to trigger when it returns to play, thus giving it two -1/-1 counters instead of one?
They would both trigger, but the first one (resolving second) would do nothing.

Also, it would probably be best if you reposted your EDH decks here. In general, they lack recursion and reusable effects. Also, look for creatures to do what your instants/sorceries achieve. Shriekmaw over Terror and such.
The black one could use more fat creatures. Remember, everyone has 40 life and it's a multiplayer format. Small creatures don't cut it unless they're there for utility and the occasional attack.


Right. Regarding False Dawn (http://magiccards.info/ap/en/10.html), from what the official text says now, looks like it doesn't synergize with Springjack Shepherd (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/15.html). Sad. :smallfrown:
Yeah...it would have before the errata, but the way it's now, it doesn't anymore.
Weird errata.


My twisted mind recently spawned a blue/green Darksteel Reactor deck. It's pretty weak, but has some potential. If anyone wants the decklist, I could give post it.
Sure, why not?

[expirement10K14]

http://store.tcgplayer.com/item.asp?id=27266

How did one survive this long?

[Mystic Muse]

okay. I usually play in games of 5+ people. this one I think there were about ten. in a game with ten people is this card http://magiccards.info/ala/en/9.html a viable way to help me win the game?
G/W deck with a splash of red.

[expirement10K14]

okay. I usually play in games of 5+ people. this one I think there were about ten. in a game with ten people is this card http://magiccards.info/ala/en/9.html elspeth a viable way to help me win the game?
G/W deck with a splash of red.

If you get out a lot of creatures, very much so.

[Mystic Muse]

I generally do and I have a few cards to get saproling tokens out.

[expirement10K14]

I generally do and I have a few cards to get saproling tokens out.

Get out as many saprolings/creatures as possible and use it. Remember that damage still destroys them.

[Mystic Muse]

yeah but they still have to DEAL damage. my plan is get like five of them out and then play mycoloth.

I think it'd be fun to do that. wait ten turns and get another mycoloth out after sacrificing all one hundred. then wait another ten turns and get another one out then sacrifice all two thousand. then wait ANOTHER ten turns and get an 80,000/80,000 Mycoloth who brings 80,000 saprolings into play each turn. I'm laughing at the prospect right now.

[littlebottom]

my friend is making a blue/black deck at the moment based around 2 cards from the new M10 set.... which i cannot remember the names of :smalleek: but the effects are harsh

blue rare card: put top half of target players library into graveyard

black rare card: exile any number of cards from target players graveyard and and cards that share names with exiled cards (excluding lands)

basically "ill remove all your cards except land, those in your hand and those currently in play, from the game"

i think that it is the kind of deck which drains the fun out of a game, but oh well....

if i remember the names of these cards i will edit this post


P.S. the cards effects may not be word for word, just as memory serves...

[expirement10K14]

my friend is making a blue/black deck at the moment based around 2 cards from the new M10 set.... which i cannot remember the names of :smalleek: but the effects are harsh

blue rare card: put top half of target players library into graveyard

black rare card: exile any number of cards from target players graveyard and and cards that share names with exiled cards (excluding lands)

basically "ill remove all your cards except land, those in your hand and those currently in play, from the game"

i think that it is the kind of deck which drains the fun out of a game, but oh well....

if i remember the names of these cards i will edit this post


P.S. the cards effects may not be word for word, just as memory serves...
Traumatize/Haunting Echoes
Sounds great, but I tried it- Without a lot of counter/removal/Tutoring it can be difficult. Jace Beleran can be very useful though.

Edit: Proxy Squirrel Deck


Creatures
4x Deranged Hermit (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/101.html)
4x Nut collector (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6638108.html)
4x Squirrel Mob (http://magiccards.info/od/en/273.html)

Other Spells
4x Doubling Season (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/158.html)
4x Squirrel Nest (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6638108.html)
4x Chatter of the Squirrel (http://magiccards.info/od/en/233.html)
4x Acorn Harvest (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/118.html)
4x Squirrel Farm (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/82.html)
4x Coat of Arms (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/316.html)

Land
4x Swarmyard (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/278.html)
20x Forest

[Duos]

Decklist:

U/G Accelereactor

Creatures
1xTeardrop Kami
1xWirewood Symbiote
2xElvish Harbinger
2xWirewood Channeler
2xLlanowar Elves
3xGilder Bairn
1xCoiling Oracle
2xClone

Instants
2xClockspinning
3xCounterspell
1x Put Away
2xBanishing Knack
2xLong Term Plans

Sorceries
1xFabricate
2xCreeping Mold
1xHarmonize
1xSleep

Enchantments
2xDoubling Season
2xOcular Halo
2xReality Acid

Artifacts
3xDarksteel Reactor
2xEnergy Chamber

Lands
4xBreeding Pool
9xIsland
7xForest


The main win condition here is to use Ocular Halo or Banishing Knack on Gilder Bairn, who you then use to draw a bunch of cards or bounce a bunch of permanents while quickly mounding up the counters on the reactor. You use Fabricate or Long Term Plans to snag one if you didn't draw one and use the counters and the Reality Acid to stall while you set up the ouphe and the reactor. Clockspinning and Energy Chamber both help immensely, since the higher the number of counters on the Reactor when you use the ouphe, the less you have to use it. The high cost of constantly buybacking the Clockspinning or untapping the Bairn is paid for by elvish mana acceleration. If the Reactor somehow doesn't pan out, you can Clone your opponents biggest threat and Sleep his side of the board, swinging for the win.

[Johnny Blade]

http://store.tcgplayer.com/item.asp?id=27266

How did one survive this long?
Wow...that must have been collecting dust in some attic for well over 10 years. And now it's worth a car. :smallbiggrin:


Proxy Squirrel Deck


Creatures
4x Deranged Hermit (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/101.html)
4x Nut collector (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6638108.html)
4x Squirrel Mob (http://magiccards.info/od/en/273.html)

Other Spells
4x Doubling Season (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/158.html)
4x Squirrel Nest (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6638108.html)
4x Chatter of the Squirrel (http://magiccards.info/od/en/233.html)
4x Acorn Harvest (http://magiccards.info/tr/en/118.html)
4x Squirrel Farm (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/82.html)
4x Coat of Arms (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/316.html)

Land
4x Swarmyard (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/278.html)
20x Forest
Is that a multiplayer deck? I'm asking because it's pretty slow now and has no acceleration.
(I still hope that, some day, aggro squirrels will be possible.)

[expirement10K14]

Wow...that must have been collecting dust in some attic for well over 10 years. And now it's worth a car. :smallbiggrin:


Is that a multiplayer deck? I'm asking because it's pretty slow now and has no acceleration.
(I still hope that, some day, aggro squirrels will be possible.)

It is a for fun proxy deck I made. Not meant for actual competitive play, just for goofing off.

[arguskos]

Yeah, that box of Beta is practically invaluable. It's a miracle that it even still exists to this day and age. On this note, I did see a sealed box of Arabian Nights once. I would have bought it, but you know, MONEY.

[Johnny Blade]

Decklist:

U/G Accelereactor

Creatures
1xTeardrop Kami
1xWirewood Symbiote
2xElvish Harbinger
2xWirewood Channeler
2xLlanowar Elves
3xGilder Bairn
1xCoiling Oracle
2xClone

Instants
2xClockspinning
3xCounterspell
1x Put Away
2xBanishing Knack
2xLong Term Plans

Sorceries
1xFabricate
2xCreeping Mold
1xHarmonize
1xSleep

Enchantments
2xDoubling Season
2xOcular Halo
2xReality Acid

Artifacts
3xDarksteel Reactor
2xEnergy Chamber

Lands
4xBreeding Pool
9xIsland
7xForest


The main win condition here is to use Ocular Halo or Banishing Knack on Gilder Bairn, who you then use to draw a bunch of cards or bounce a bunch of permanents while quickly mounding up the counters on the reactor. You use Fabricate or Long Term Plans to snag one if you didn't draw one and use the counters and the Reality Acid to stall while you set up the ouphe and the reactor. Clockspinning and Energy Chamber both help immensely, since the higher the number of counters on the Reactor when you use the ouphe, the less you have to use it. The high cost of constantly buybacking the Clockspinning or untapping the Bairn is paid for by elvish mana acceleration. If the Reactor somehow doesn't pan out, you can Clone your opponents biggest threat and Sleep his side of the board, swinging for the win.
Well, don't get me wrong, it's a nice deck, but I don't see how you plan to actually survive until you've set your combo up.
I think adding White might be helpful, and a stronger counter suit.

I'd consider the Parallax enchantments (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6639475.html). They're pretty good with Doubling Season, and downright silly with Gilder Bairn.

[Mystic Muse]

okay. were I to get an 80,000/80,000 mycoloth out would adding coat of arms just be adding insult to injury?

[Johnny Blade]

okay. were I to get an 80,000/80,000 mycoloth out would adding coat of arms just be adding insult to injury?
No.
Injury was when you waited ten turns to play a second Mycoloth.
The third one was insult.
The fourth was indignity.
Coat of Arms would be...um...how about invidiousness? :smalltongue:

[mikeejimbo]

I know I'm kind of new to Magic, but isn't 30 turns a really long time? Aren't most games over by then?

[Duos]

Well, don't get me wrong, it's a nice deck, but I don't see how you plan to actually survive until you've set your combo up.
I think adding White might be helpful, and a stronger counter suit.

I'd consider the Parallax enchantments (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6639475.html). They're pretty good with Doubling Season, and downright silly with Gilder Bairn.

That's the problem I've been having. I end up chump blocking with my elves, usually.

The Parallax enchantments look pretty good. My problem lies in figuring out what I can safely remove to improve the deck without really endangering my ability to set up and execute the combo. With less available mana, I generally get the Bairn killed or the Reactor removed from the game before I can get twenty counters. With less tutoring, I have trouble getting the peices into play. With less of the combo pieces, the reactor is too slow. I'm really at a loss...

On a tangently related note, I propose we all work together to build a deck, then have one of us run it in the FNM tourny this weekend. It might improve our general pool of knowledge, and collaborative effort produces some fun and surprising stuff, in my past experience. It'll be fun!

[Bucky]

Coat of Arms would be...um...how about invidiousness? :smalltongue:

Why use Coat of Arms when you could use Door of Destinies? The Door is a lot less likely to end up killing you. (this goes for the Squirrel deck too)


Decklist:

U/G Accelereactor

Creatures
1xTeardrop Kami
1xWirewood Symbiote
2xElvish Harbinger
2xWirewood Channeler
2xLlanowar Elves
3xGilder Bairn
1xCoiling Oracle
2xClone

Instants
2xClockspinning
3xCounterspell
1x Put Away
2xBanishing Knack
2xLong Term Plans

Sorceries
1xFabricate
2xCreeping Mold
1xHarmonize
1xSleep

Enchantments
2xDoubling Season
2xOcular Halo
2xReality Acid

Artifacts
3xDarksteel Reactor
2xEnergy Chamber

Lands
4xBreeding Pool
9xIsland
7xForest


The main win condition here is to use Ocular Halo or Banishing Knack on Gilder Bairn, who you then use to draw a bunch of cards or bounce a bunch of permanents while quickly mounding up the counters on the reactor. You use Fabricate or Long Term Plans to snag one if you didn't draw one and use the counters and the Reality Acid to stall while you set up the ouphe and the reactor. Clockspinning and Energy Chamber both help immensely, since the higher the number of counters on the Reactor when you use the ouphe, the less you have to use it. The high cost of constantly buybacking the Clockspinning or untapping the Bairn is paid for by elvish mana acceleration. If the Reactor somehow doesn't pan out, you can Clone your opponents biggest threat and Sleep his side of the board, swinging for the win.

The best thing you can do for consistency is to bump up the Darksteel Reactor and Gilder Bairns to 4x each.

Also, you may want to consider some creature control artifacts like 1x Ensnaring Bridge, 1x Cumber Stone and maybe even 1x Ward of Bones as alternative Fabricate targets, along with a few more Fabricates.

[mikeejimbo]

I have some questions about EDH. Mostly, what about the mechanics of it make it better for "social" gaming than other playtypes?

Also, any good suggestions for a deck featuring Progenitus as the general? :smallbiggrin:

[Mystic Muse]

I have some questions about EDH. Mostly, what about the mechanics of it make it better for "social" gaming than other playtypes?

Also, any good suggestions for a deck featuring Progenitus as the general? :smallbiggrin:

get lands like mirrodin's core so you can produce any type of mana.

get joiner adept so all lands have tap add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

get fist of suns and you can play him for half

get him in your hand and wait until you're able to discard then cast a spell like beacon of unrest, breath of life ETC.

these work for you?

[Shas aia Toriia]

Ha! Yes! Someobody else has to handle formatting people's decks into the first post now! :smallbiggrin:

In all seriousness though, I think colour-coding decks in the first post was a huge mistake on my part. It looks pretty terrible. Anybody else agree and think it should be removed?

The reason EDH is popular (in my opinion) is because there aren't any playsets - this means less of a drain on your wallet. If a deck is cheap, it also means you're more likely to build wacky, fun decks. This leads to wacky fun scenarios with reasonably powerful decks.

Although to be fair, I've never seen anyone play EDH outside this thread.

[EndlessWrath]

I've heard there is a change in rules and i come to confirm it. I was sketchy with the rule in the first place...so just tell me if its currently allowed to be done.

1st Question: If an opponent attacks with an X/2 (X doesn't matter), and you block with a 1/1 creature, then tap to do an effect, say deal 1 damage to target creature Can you block than tap for a screw you I'm gonna play this one more time before this guy dies?

2nd Question: same situation.. but the requirement is you sacrifice the creature to deal the point of damage. Since its last in first out, you cannot block and take the opponents damage, then deal yours, then sac...it just doesn't work. so what happens to the opponents damage? blocking then sacrificing, the opponents damage goes straight to you right?

[Mystic Muse]

unless a creature has "target creature blocking X" due to new rules no an effect such as "sacrifice do 1 damage to target creature." would not work. if you play old rules I'm not sure.

Edit.: I don't know if even the first effect works due to new rules since you can't tap after you block I don't think and tapping a creature prevents it from being able to block.

[arguskos]

1. Yes, that still works, as far as I can understand the question.

2. You can't block, stack damage, then sacrifice for an effect anymore. Notably, if you sacrifice a blocker, you still don't take the damage, since it DID block.

[Johnny Blade]

My problem lies in figuring out what I can safely remove to improve the deck without really endangering my ability to set up and execute the combo. With less available mana, I generally get the Bairn killed or the Reactor removed from the game before I can get twenty counters. With less tutoring, I have trouble getting the peices into play. With less of the combo pieces, the reactor is too slow. I'm really at a loss...
Well, I'd remove all creatures but the Gilder Bairns. This is a slow combo, so I'd rate board sweepers higher than fast mana creatures. And Signets are good enough.
Then I'd also cut Clockspinning and Put Away for being too weak, Sleep for not really being a card for dedicated control, and Reality Acid because, well, sorry to say, but I have no idea why you put that into the deck.
Then I'd add some more lands and artifact mana and try to strengthen the control aspects.

Also, more 4-ofs would be good if possible, as Bucky said.


On a tangently related note, I propose we all work together to build a deck, then have one of us run it in the FNM tourny this weekend. It might improve our general pool of knowledge, and collaborative effort produces some fun and surprising stuff, in my past experience. It'll be fun!
I suppose you mean a Standard deck?



Why use Coat of Arms when you could use Door of Destinies? The Door is a lot less likely to end up killing you. (this goes for the Squirrel deck too)
Door of Destinies doesn't work well with token decks, though.



I have some questions about EDH. Mostly, what about the mechanics of it make it better for "social" gaming than other playtypes?
Deckbuilding is more fun due to the limitations and while it favors having a large collection, you can get away with a pretty cheap pile of cards if you accept that you won't have the versatility of 3-color decks.
Also, due to the deckbuilding restrictions and the whole 40 life multiplayer thing, you're all but forced to build a deck that has a certain theme built to be supplemented by your general, get to sling around all those crazy spells you never have the chance to in regular play (although EDH shares that with many multiplayer formats), and need to find effective card interactions. So, you pretty much get awarded for style here.
Sure, you can also spend a lot of time building a deck, but it's worth it.


Also, any good suggestions for a deck featuring Progenitus as the general? :smallbiggrin:
Uh...are you sure about that? I mean, that's going to be an expensive mana base if you don't have the cards needed and want it to be good, and Progenitus can still get killed by a sweeper, which are quite common in EDH.
Anyway, usually, it's best to go for card synergies, although you can start making decks that just play random good stuff if you play 5 colors, or the right 3 colors - WRG is still better off going for synergies, but UBG can go for whatever and still be very strong.

Anyway, if you're new to EDH, I recommend looking through the legends you have (or all that exist :smallbiggrin:) and picking one that:
1. you like.
2. has some ability that can lead to a reasonable deck theme.
3. is either two-colored or, if it has to be mono-colored, black, white or blue. Red and Green have some difficulties - Red has no recursion, tutors, enchantment removal and such, and Green can't deal with creatures and tends to have trouble recovering from sweepers as well.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, I'd remove all creatures but the Gilder Bairns. This is a slow combo, so I'd rate board sweepers higher than fast mana creatures. And Signets are good enough.
Then I'd also cut Clockspinning and Put Away for being too weak, Sleep for not really being a card for dedicated control, and Reality Acid because, well, sorry to say, but I have no idea why you put that into the deck.
Then I'd add some more lands and artifact mana and try to strengthen the control aspects.

Also, more 4-ofs would be good if possible, as Bucky said.


I suppose you mean a Standard deck?



Door of Destinies doesn't work well with token decks, though.



Deckbuilding is more fun due to the limitations and while it favors having a large collection, you can get away with a pretty cheap pile of cards if you accept that you won't have the versatility of 3-color decks.
Also, due to the deckbuilding restrictions and the whole 40 life multiplayer thing, you're all but forced to build a deck that has a certain theme built to be supplemented by your general, get to sling around all those crazy spells you never have the chance to in regular play (although EDH shares that with many multiplayer formats), and need to find effective card interactions. So, you pretty much get awarded for style here.
Sure, you can also spend a lot of time building a deck, but it's worth it.


Uh...are you sure about that? I mean, that's going to be an expensive mana base if you don't have the cards needed and want it to be good, and Progenitus can still get killed by a sweeper, which are quite common in EDH.
Anyway, usually, it's best to go for card synergies, although you can start making decks that just play random good stuff if you play 5 colors, or the right 3 colors - WRG is still better off going for synergies, but UBG can go for whatever and still be very strong.

Anyway, if you're new to EDH, I recommend looking through the legends you have (or all that exist :smallbiggrin:) and picking one that:
1. you like.
2. has some ability that can lead to a reasonable deck theme.
3. is either two-colored or, if it has to be mono-colored, black, white or blue. Red and Green have some difficulties - Red has no recursion, tutors, enchantment removal and such, and Green can't deal with creatures and tends to have trouble recovering from sweepers as well.

to be fair silvos rogue elemental is pretty good. and as long as the sweeper doesn't have "cannot be regenerated*" then you're fine as long as you leave a forest open.

*yes I'm aware most sweepers have cannot be regenerated.

[Johnny Blade]

to be fair silvos rogue elemental is pretty good. and as long as the sweeper doesn't have "cannot be regenerated*" then you're fine as long as you leave a forest open.

*yes I'm aware most sweepers have cannot be regenerated.
Well, that's true, if you run a green deck, finding good creatures is not a problem. Sure, you have almost no good flyers, but all the ways to deal with them instead.

You'll still get upstaged by, say black-green decks, though, and they can actually kill enemy creatures and have reusable recursion and some other stuff you just have no access to.

[Mystic Muse]

Well, that's true, if you run a green deck, finding good creatures is not a problem. Sure, you have almost no good flyers, but all the ways to deal with them instead.

You'll still get upstaged by, say black-green decks, though, and they can actually kill enemy creatures and have reusable recursion and some other stuff you just have no access to.

yeah. I know. I'm just saying that it has good legends. of course I don't really know what EDH is so my advice could be completely irrelevant for all I know.

I LOOOOOOOOOOVE black's ability to destroy pretty much everything. and in a G/B deck you can get putrefy.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Or better yet, Maelstrom Pulse.

[Mystic Muse]

anybody else think this card should say petrified instead of the double entendre it currently has?:smallbiggrin:http://magiccards.info/uh/en/112.html

[tgva8889]

Just got back from US Nationals, it was awesome. Played in a money draft and won a foil Baneslayer Angel. Which was awesome. I do not, however, still have it, as we traded it for two normal Baneslayer Angels to the person from whom we borrowed the packs. It seemed fair.

Beyond that, I discovered that M10 Draft is an absolutely degenerate format, if not quite fun. I think you almost always draft either Green or White, but almost never both together. You really need one or the other to have enough efficient creatures. The other colors really falter in terms of creature quality. Plus, all the best bombs are Green or White. Though if people at your draft are underestimating Blue, take it all and have a mono-Blue monstrosity.

[GAThraawn]

I've heard there is a change in rules and i come to confirm it. I was sketchy with the rule in the first place...so just tell me if its currently allowed to be done.

1st Question: If an opponent attacks with an X/2 (X doesn't matter), and you block with a 1/1 creature, then tap to do an effect, say deal 1 damage to target creature Can you block than tap for a screw you I'm gonna play this one more time before this guy dies?

2nd Question: same situation.. but the requirement is you sacrifice the creature to deal the point of damage. Since its last in first out, you cannot block and take the opponents damage, then deal yours, then sac...it just doesn't work. so what happens to the opponents damage? blocking then sacrificing, the opponents damage goes straight to you right?

1) After blockers are declared, each player gets a chance to play spells and abilities before you move to damage. Tapping or untapping a creature neither removes it from combat nor prevents it from dealing damage, so this works fine.

2) Declaring attackers and blockers doesn't use the stack, so "last in first out" has no meaning here. Again, both players can use abilities after blockers have been declared, before damage. Since a creature that has been blocked remains blocked even if the creature blocking it goes away, you can block and then sacrifice your creature for its effect. Unless the creature you blocked had trample, you won't be taking any damage. (Of course, the creature you sacrificed doesn't do any combat damage either, but you can't have everything.)

[Shas aia Toriia]

anybody else think this card should say petrified instead of the double entendre it currently has?:smallbiggrin:http://magiccards.info/uh/en/112.html

I think its meant to be that way. It is, after all, an Un- set.

[Winterwind]

I think its meant to be that way. It is, after all, an Un- set.The question being, how many players have tried to slip some joint to their friends or attempted even more nefarious tricks in order to get them stoned so they could take advantage of that rule? :smalltongue:

[Mystic Muse]

The question being, how many players have tried to slip some joint to their friends or attempted even more nefarious tricks in order to get them stoned so they could take advantage of that rule? :smalltongue:

I doubt we'll ever know. my guess is a lot.

[Optimystik]

Or better yet, Maelstrom Pulse.

Or Deed...


anybody else think this card should say petrified instead of the double entendre it currently has?:smallbiggrin:http://magiccards.info/uh/en/112.html

Rule #1 for Un- sets: if it's childish, it's probably intentional. :smalltongue:

[Shas aia Toriia]

Or Deed...

Ah yes, who could forget good ol' Pernicious Deed. . . :smallcool:

[Johnny Blade]

...followed by Lord of Extinction.

[tgva8889]

Ah yes, who could forget good ol' Pernicious Deed. . . :smallcool:

You know, I had a very chilling dream in which someone used Pernicious Deed and destroyed all my lands. Not a pleasant thought.

[arguskos]

And we can't forget to add Spiritmonger to this list of B/G being badass. :smallcool:

You know, I might need to make another Savra EDH deck. I actually disassembled Baru, Intet, and Ulasht, since they've been really underwhelming recently. That gives me four sets of sleeves to play with. I'm think Thraxi, Savra, Teysa (or Ghost Council, either/or), and something else. Not sure what or who though. Suggestions?

[Johnny Blade]

Well, they're all strong and fairly similar in theme.
I like Savra a lot for being a good control creature, but Thraximundar is in a superior color combination.
He's also pretty flexible. You can clear the board and go for general damage or use some token/recursion shenanigans, whereas Savra and Teysa rely on the latter.


Anyway, if you go with Thraximundar, one card to consider would be Brine Shaman (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/3.html). I don't think there's another card that can just sacrifice any token for a counter.
Closest thing would probably be Voidmage Prodigy, and that requires Lich Lord of Unx to work repeatedly without wasting recursion.

[arguskos]

You misunderstand, I'm running ALL of them as Generals, since I disassembled my Intet, Baru, and Ulasht decks.

I'm also looking for a fourth suggestion for a new general. I currently have:
-Teferi
-8.5tails
-Dralnu
-Tolsimir (actually G/W lifegain, but there's no good general for it, so I went with him)
-Endrek Sahr

Soon I'll add:
-Thraxi (sacrifice based)
-Teysa (tokens)
-Savra (likely tokens and Rock-like good stuff)

I'm kinda looking for a good red general. I can make most everything, so just toss some suggestions out there.

[Johnny Blade]

I thought you wanted suggestions about which one to make first.

Anyway, mono-red?

[arguskos]

What General, then? As for what I'm making first, I'm making the prior three all at once. :smallcool: I'll post em up when I get the chance (and when they're done).

Mono-Red's best general is Kiki-Jiki, but Mono-Red has some severe issues, as we've explored recently.

[Johnny Blade]

Kumano (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/176.html) is pretty nice as well. Reusable RFG and all that.

Also, Jaya (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/166.html) wants to have a deck built around her. Too bad Red just doesn't have the tutors needed for that.

I think you could build a mainly red deck around Kaervek (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/242.html). Add stuff like Pain Magnification (http://magiccards.info/di/en/121.html), Wound Reflection (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/81.html), Gratuitous Violence (http://magiccards.info/on/en/212.html) and the like and they're on a serious clock.
Of course, there's the problem with enchantment removal, but at least there's something (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/131.html) now.

Building a Jhoira or Niv-Mizzet deck that people won't lynch you for would be a nice challenge as well. Especially with Jhoira. :smallamused:

[arguskos]

Heh, Jhoira would be a fun general. Might go with that one, simply for the challenge.

Niv is great fun, but it's hard to make a Niv-Mizzet deck that won't get you killed (Ophidian Eye and all), real life and/or in game. Like the Jhoira thought though, thanks for the reminder.

[Winterwind]

Question that's come up during my last game.
Let's say my opponent plays some card I don't want him to play, and so I counter it with some counterspell (in our game the counterspell was Offering to Asha (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/9.html)).
Then, the opponent plays Swerve (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/200.html). Of course, there aren't many targets around that he can redirect the counterspell towards.
We've already determined that it's not possible to direct it at itself, as the rules say a spell on the stack can never target itself.
Now my question... can Swerve be used to redirect the counterspell against Swerve itself? We believe it can, but wanted to make sure.

[tgva8889]

Question that's come up during my last game.
Let's say my opponent plays some card I don't want him to play, and so I counter it with some counterspell (in our game the counterspell was Offering to Asha (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/9.html)).
Then, the opponent plays Swerve (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/200.html). Of course, there aren't many targets around that he can redirect the counterspell towards.
We've already determined that it's not possible to direct it at itself, as the rules say a spell on the stack can never target itself.
Now my question... can Swerve be used to redirect the counterspell against Swerve itself? We believe it can, but wanted to make sure.

Yes, you can have Swerve direct the counterspell to Swerve itself, which would cause the counter to have no effect. I believe that is how those effects work.

[Johnny Blade]

Niv is great fun, but it's hard to make a Niv-Mizzet deck that won't get you killed (Ophidian Eye and all), real life and/or in game.
Yeah. I actually thought about doing it, simply going for a card draw and wizard theme, using Niv as nothing but removal (and another card per turn). But nothing short of letting people look through your deck before playing could ever convince everyone that you're not going to kill everyone by comboing out.

Same with Jhoira. People will just decide you're going for Obliterate/Jokulhaups/whatever and shoot her down. And then you.
Of course, it's hard to make good use of her otherwise, so good luck if you try it. :smallwink:

[Winterwind]

Yes, you can have Swerve direct the counterspell to Swerve itself, which would cause the counter to have no effect. I believe that is how those effects work.Alright, thanks! :smallsmile:

[arguskos]

So, just finished up Thraxi. The deck is fun, though not amazing. Should be a damn BLAST to play in EDH though. Also, I've got to say that Defiler of Souls is hilarious with Thraximundar in play.

The other fun interaction I've discovered is the following: any CIP-effect creature (such as Siege-Gang Commander)+Dawn of the Dead+Liege/Lord of the Pit. That's a fun upkeep! :smallamused:

[tgva8889]

Once I refind the deck list for my Darien deck (computer crash means I lost it, so I'll have to basically remake it) and then actually build it (in real life, I'm almost certain after finding a Land Tax that I have everything I need for it), I definitely want to get into an EDH game.

[arguskos]

Damn I need some Land Taxes. :smallannoyed: Love that card, don't own any though. I did pick up some Sword of Fire and Ice; and Light and Shadow, along with some Darksteel Colossi. Fun times. :smallamused:

In any case, off to build Savra!

[tgva8889]

Damn I need some Land Taxes. :smallannoyed: Love that card, don't own any though.

I was lucky, found one at Nationals for $4. Pretty cheap, if you ask me.

[arguskos]

I was lucky, found one at Nationals for $4. Pretty cheap, if you ask me.
Damn! Lucky you indeed! Land Tax for $4 is a great deal indeed!

I think I found a great deal on From the Vault: Exiled too (possibly for $27). I'll be buying one, my GF will too, and likely several of my friends.

[The Extinguisher]

So, I have discovered the joy that is mono-blue.

So, I've decided to make a mono-blue EDH deck. Not sure what general though.

[Mirrinus]

So, I have discovered the joy that is mono-blue.

So, I've decided to make a mono-blue EDH deck. Not sure what general though.

Teferi is the obvious one, I see him around a lot in EDH.

Venser's not bad for an immediate effect, and you won't care too much if someone kills him.

Empress Galina is a very, very evil general to use, and will make people hate your guts. But you know it's tempting...

Sakashima the Imposter might be a less evil version of Galina.

Does Johnny, Combo Player count?

[arguskos]

We discussed this a while back. The consensus was that Meloku, the Clouded Mirror and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir are the best generals, hands down.

However, should you wish to make a deck with a general less likely to get you hit with a book, try Venser, Shaper Savant or Kami of the Crescent Moon.

[tgva8889]

I'm currently gunning for Kami of the Crescent Moon myself.

Sakashima is really good. I've played against that deck, and he's definitely a powerful General.

[The Extinguisher]

I'd use Sakashima, but my friend has a mirror deck and I'd hate to be that guy.

I want to use Erayno, but that might be jerkish. I'll probably go with Teferi.

[arguskos]

WARNING: Teferi will get people gunning for you. It's one of those "OHSHI- KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!" generals. To be fair, you can end games by playing him at a clever time, so use caution.

I actually LOOOVE Sakashima, and endorse him as a general.

[Mystic Muse]

okay. I want to make an all colors deck just for fun but am trying to make it actually decent. so what I need is a lot of cards that can put any type of mana into play. not like mirrodin's core though. it's ability has to be "tap put any color of mana into your mana pool." and it has to be a land. several different ones if possible.

[tgva8889]

okay. I want to make an all colors deck just for fun but am trying to make it actually decent. so what I need is a lot of cards that can put any type of mana into play. not like mirrodin's core though. it's ability has to be "tap put any color of mana into your mana pool." and it has to be a land. several different ones if possible.

Open The Gatherer, and do an advanced search for Land with Add any color to your mana pool. Should find you every single one that can.

[Bucky]

okay. I want to make an all colors deck just for fun but am trying to make it actually decent. so what I need is a lot of cards that can put any type of mana into play. not like mirrodin's core though. it's ability has to be "tap put any color of mana into your mana pool." and it has to be a land. several different ones if possible.

I'm not sure exactly what you want, but here goes.

Lands:
Ancient Ziggurat
City of Ass
City of Brass
Forbidden Orchard
Glimmervoid
Grand Coliseum
Pillar of the Paruns
Reflecting Pool
Rupture Spire
Thran Quarry
Vivid Meadow/Grove/Creek/Marsh/Crag


And also some artifacts:
Coalition Relic
Darksteel Ingot
Paradise Mantle
Prismatic Lens

A bunch of current competitive decks use Vivid Lands+Reflecting Pool.

[EndlessWrath]

Edit.: I don't know if even the first effect works due to new rules since you can't tap after you block I don't think and tapping a creature prevents it from being able to block.

Older rules allowed you to block then tap, so you could block then ping for 1, both creatures would die... I hope they're not going to change it. If they do i'm about to quit here and now :smalleek:

jk.. but seriously...twould be bad

Edit: :smalleek: really late response..

[The Extinguisher]

No no no no no no.

The new rules prevent you from putting combat damage on the stack and using an effect.

You can still block, and use an effect, the creature will still be blocked. The last time you can play spells is after blockers have been assigned.

[arguskos]

No no no no no no.

The new rules prevent you from putting combat damage on the stack and using an effect.

You can still block, and use an effect, the creature will still be blocked. The last time you can play spells is after blockers have been assigned.
To clarify this, the reason is because damage no longer uses the stack, so instead of "damage on the stack, I'll sacrifice my Mogg Fanatic to shoot you for one, and his 1 power will still hit the guy he blocked" it's "I'll block with my Fanatic, then sacrifice him to hit you for one and I don't take any damage".

[Johnny Blade]

So, just finished up Thraxi. The deck is fun, though not amazing. Should be a damn BLAST to play in EDH though. Also, I've got to say that Defiler of Souls is hilarious with Thraximundar in play.
Not to forget Prince of Thralls.



Once I refind the deck list for my Darien deck (computer crash means I lost it, so I'll have to basically remake it) and then actually build it (in real life, I'm almost certain after finding a Land Tax that I have everything I need for it), I definitely want to get into an EDH game.
Computer crash, huh? I feel your pain.
At least the deck got a few new good cards with M10.



I think I found a great deal on From the Vault: Exiled too (possibly for $27). I'll be buying one, my GF will too, and likely several of my friends.
Wait...they didn't tell what cards would be in there, did they?



WARNING: Teferi will get people gunning for you. It's one of those "OHSHI- KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!" generals. To be fair, you can end games by playing him at a clever time, so use caution.
Yeah, and he's not the only blue general like that. Arcum Dagsson (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/27.html) and Erayo are just the same, for example.
Galina as well, usually, but we've ruled that generals are always controlled by their owners no matter what.
Anyway, as soon as people see Teferi in the RFG zone, you're a target.

Decent mono-blue generals that haven't been mentioned yet would be Arcanis (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/66.html), Azami (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/52.html), and Oona (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/172.html) if you have the right opponents.
There's also Kaho (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/41.html) - she will draw fire, but if you can protect her, she's good. And even if you can't guarantee her survival for more than one turn, you don't have to fetch 3 cards with her. Sadly, she can't dig up sorceries.

[tgva8889]

Computer crash, huh? I feel your pain.
At least the deck got a few new good cards with M10.

If by "a few good cards" you mean "Captain of the Watch" then yes. Beyond the Captain, I don't think any of the new cards can really fit into the Darien deck. Maybe Safe Passage. Definitely not Planar Cleansing (Akroma's Vengeance didn't make it, why would I want to destroy more types of permanents at the cost of Cycling?)

[Johnny Blade]

I was thinking about Rhox Pikemaster (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/26.html) as well. If nothing else, he'll give you an edge over other token decks.

[Winterwind]

I was thinking about Rhox Pikemaster (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/26.html) as well. If nothing else, he'll give you an edge over other token decks.:smalleek:
That thing is awesome! Want! :smallbiggrin:

[Johnny Blade]

Well, it should be noted that he's somewhat (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/15.html) redundant (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/12.html).

But that's not exactly a bad thing in EDH.

[tgva8889]

I suppose. But if I wanted to have an edge over other token decks, I'd just blow them all up while making more tokens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=178560).

The Rhox really does just seem like he's asking to get blown up. And I feel like First Striking a bunch of random 1/1s won't help me win very many fights anyways. At least Field Marshal gives them all +1/+1.

[Johnny Blade]

I suppose. But if I wanted to have an edge over other token decks, I'd just blow them all up while making more tokens (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=178560).

The Rhox really does just seem like he's asking to get blown up. And I feel like First Striking a bunch of random 1/1s won't help me win very many fights anyways. At least Field Marshal gives them all +1/+1.
You're playing White. You really don't have much to make sure you get the cards you really need at the right time. :smalltongue:
Of course, that doesn't make the Pikemaster an auto-include, but I'd consider him, depending on what decks you go up against.


Also, about blue generals again, I just remembered that Sygg (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/176.html) only needs hybrid mana, meaning you can run him while getting access to niceties like Memory Plunder (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/169.html).
That places him fairly high on my list of blue generals.

[mikeejimbo]

I have an "entirely" "academic" question. Let's assume I want to make an arbitrary number of artifact tokens per turn. Let's pick...I dunno, five. Any combos that would let me do that for an arbitrarily large number of turns? For bonus credit, do it with only blue, black and colorless. And remember, artifact tokens. I don't care if they're even creatures, as long as they're artifacts.

[Johnny Blade]

There are many...

Fecundity + Ashnod's Altar + Words of Wilding
Good ol' Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest

And so on.


No ideas/memories concerning your color restrictions at the moment, though.


Wait, artifacts?

[mikeejimbo]

Wait, artifacts?

Indeed, I apologize profusely for neglecting to mention the single most important part. :smallredface:

I should note that I would also be fine with getting five artifacts out of my graveyard and into play per turn.

EDIT: There are a couple of things that tap and produce one, most also cost mana. If I had a way to produce an arbitrarily large amount of mana AND untap an arbitrarily large number of times, that might do it. However, so far I really like the Sharding Sphinx (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174881). Sure it's not actually an arbitrarily large number, but if I can get it to at least five, I'm golden. Now, is there any way to give artifacts Fear?

[Johnny Blade]

Well, unlimited artifact tokens are easy:

Spawning Pit + Doubling Season + Ashnod's Altar

You even get unlimited colorless mana.



To stay in your colors, though, you'd probably need 4 cards.

Myr Matrix + Power Artifact + another Power Artifact or Copy Enchantment + Ashnod's Altar

Best I could come up with. Yeah, it's pretty weak.

[mikeejimbo]

Actually, here's what I'm going to do.

Sharding Sphinx + four artifacts of any kind + Thopter Foundry. When opponent has no flying creatures, sacrifice the four artifacts for Thopter tokens. Attack with the four Thopter tokens and the Sharding Sphinx. Put five more Thopter tokens into play.

That way, I get five per turn, which is all I need for Time Sieve (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/31.html)

Yeah, the real goal is nigh-infinite turns. Of course, if I can deal damage with the Sphinx AND four tokens, it would only take three turns to kill someone.

[Optimystik]

Kaho (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/41.html) is a nice idea for an MU general. Great fun in a toolbox deck, and throw in a Cognivore or something.

I think Soramaro (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/58.html) would be a really nice blue general too, complete with spellbook effects or handsize increasers.

I wish Memnarch could be a general - he'd easily trump the others. At least you can play him in Commander (MTGO EDH) but still not as a general. :smallfrown:.


I have an "entirely" "academic" question. Let's assume I want to make an arbitrary number of artifact tokens per turn. Let's pick...I dunno, five. Any combos that would let me do that for an arbitrarily large number of turns? For bonus credit, do it with only blue, black and colorless. And remember, artifact tokens. I don't care if they're even creatures, as long as they're artifacts.

Well, Genesis Chamber and/or Nuisance Engine can help. Puppet Conjurer + Conspiracy?

[mikeejimbo]

Well, Genesis Chamber and/or Nuisance Engine can help. Puppet Conjurer + Conspiracy?

Maybe. I'm fairly happy with the rather simple answer of "Sharding Sphinx" though. Happy enough that I bought some off the 'nets.

[The Extinguisher]

I have an "entirely" "academic" question. Let's assume I want to make an arbitrary number of artifact tokens per turn. Let's pick...I dunno, five. Any combos that would let me do that for an arbitrarily large number of turns? For bonus credit, do it with only blue, black and colorless. And remember, artifact tokens. I don't care if they're even creatures, as long as they're artifacts.

There's an infinite combo with Pentavus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46703).
Otherworldy Journey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197017) on a stick (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46741), gets you 5 tokens a turn.


Also: I've got that elfball decklist.


Lanowar Elves x4
Birchlore Rangers x4
Elvish Visionary x4
Devoted Druid x4
Boreal Druid x4
Heritage Druid x4
Nettle Sentinel x4
Elves of Deep Shadow x4
Gilt-Leaf Archdruid x4
Regal Force x1

Glimpse of Nature x4
Grapeshot x1
Manamorphose x2
Abundence x1


All be taking out some of the mana elves (like Boreal Druid) for cards better suited to the metagame, and I'll add some Summoner's Pacts as well. But any other suggestions?

[Johnny Blade]

For Time Sieve, you can also put one of those cards here (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6682682.html) on a Panoptic Mirror (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/136.html) and just sacrifice whatever - artifact lands or Ornithopters.


EDIT:

I think Soramaro (http://magiccards.info/sok/en/58.html) would be a really nice blue general too, complete with spellbook effects or handsize increasers.
There aren't too many of those, though. Reliquary Tower (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/143.html) helps, as do all the artifact tutors Blue has, but there still are rather few.


I wish Memnarch could be a general - he'd easily trump the others. At least you can play him in Commander (MTGO EDH) but still not as a general. :smallfrown:.
Memnarch would be another "Hey, look! I'm a target!" general. I think Blue has enough of those. :smallwink:

[mikeejimbo]

There's an infinite combo with Pentavus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46703).
Otherworldy Journey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197017) on a stick (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46741), gets you 5 tokens a turn.


For Time Sieve, you can also put one of those cards here (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6682682.html) on a Panoptic Mirror (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/136.html) and just sacrifice whatever - artifact lands or Ornithopters.

True and true, though not in my color. Although, I do have another white/blue artifact deck on which I'm working.

On an entirely different note, I'm also working on a set with the Magic Set Editor just for fun (and laughs). The idea is to create a somewhat balanced new way to win, centered around a couple of cards. So although they're just for fun, you could actually play with them. I'll tell you more about it when I have more work on it.

[Johnny Blade]

True and true, though not in my color.
Actually, both suggestions are possible to use in your UB deck - you don't want to actually play one of the white cards, just imprint them.

[Optimystik]

There's an infinite combo with Pentavus (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46703).
Otherworldy Journey (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197017) on a stick (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46741), gets you 5 tokens a turn.

For 7 mana and 3 cards per shot :smalltongue: You're probably better off just sticking Time Warp on Panoptic Mirror at that point, but at least you have the secondary wincon of a Pentavite swarm.


There aren't too many of those, though. Reliquary Tower (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/143.html) helps, as do all the artifact tutors Blue has, but there still are rather few.

There's also Trusted Advisor and Minamo Scrollkeeper, but you're right. Still, he's hits the board as a 7/7 flier for 6 with "4: +2/+2 until eot," so that's got to count for something.

A green version with Masumaro might be nice as well, but there's even less ways to increase your hand size going that route.


Memnarch would be another "Hey, look! I'm a target!" general. I think Blue has enough of those. :smallwink:

Just playing islands makes you a target, you might as well have an annoying general too :smallwink:

[The Extinguisher]

For 7 mana and 3 cards per shot :smalltongue: You're probably better off just sticking Time Warp on Panoptic Mirror at that point, but at least you have the secondary wincon of a Pentavite swarm.

Bah. I prefer my combo's to be drawn out and complicated, thank you very much. :smallamused:


Just playing islands makes you a target, you might as well have an annoying general too :smallwink:

Islands make you a target in any game. They're almost as bad as slivers. Speaking of slivers, my friend had a deck that ran a single sliver (it was a mechanic based deck) and as soon as he played it, halfway through the game, everyone playing ganged up on the "sliver deck".

[mikeejimbo]

Actually, both suggestions are possible to use in your UB deck - you don't want to actually play one of the white cards, just imprint them.

Oh, dang! You're right! For some reason I thought you had to pay the mana cost at least once.

Well, I'll consider it later. For now I don't feel like trying to fit too many more things into my deck.

[MountainKing]

Has anyone ever considered using a combination of Altar Golem and Elemental Mastery? As long as you can get the golem to power 5, you win the game. Sort of. Barring silly things like removal and disenchants.

Combined with Mana Echoes and a Fireball, it's even more hilarious. :smallamused:

Also, QUICK. Are there any creatures that have triggered abilities that go off whenever an enchantment comes into play? Not when an enchantment is played! It must be comes into play... because you could make an unlimited combo with three Oblivion Rings and whatever those cards are. If it's feasible, does anyone have the creative/delightfully warped genius necessary to make it a deck and post it?

[tgva8889]

Has anyone ever considered using a combination of Altar Golem and Elemental Mastery? As long as you can get the golem to power 5, you win the game. Sort of. Barring silly things like removal and disenchants.

Yes, I have considered it. Never got it to work, though.

If I was going to go that route, I'd probably just kill them with hasty elementals and an Infinity/Infinity Altar Golem.

[arguskos]

Well, Elemental Mastery+Intruder Alarm+Any creature=infinite elementals, if that would help any.

I actually run a Rakka Mar Intruder Alarm deck that kills with lots of tokens and some pingers that I tap between each activation of Rakka Mar.

[Johnny Blade]

Yes, I have considered it. Never got it to work, though.
I guess the most promising way would be to get them both (and an Anger (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/77.html), while we're at it) into the graveyard somehow, and then Open the Vaults (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/21.html).
The first part is where I'm having trouble coming up with a good way to do it.

[tgva8889]

I guess the most promising way would be to get them both (and an Anger (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/77.html), while we're at it) into the graveyard somehow, and then Open the Vaults (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/21.html).
The first part is where I'm having trouble coming up with a good way to do it.

I don't think that works. I think Auras brought back with Open the Vaults and similar cards have to enchant things that are already in play when you play the spell. So you can't bring back Elemental Master and Altar Golem and have the combo work. I might be wrong on that, though.

[Ghal Marak]

Hey, what are some good sacrifice outlets? I've got a playset of Rotlung Reanimators (http://magiccards.info/on/en/164.html) and some Conspiracies (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/127.html) that are begging to be used.

I know the three altars are good choices, but they are kinda hard for me to find. Other than Thermopod (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/100.html), thats about all I can think of.

[Johnny Blade]

I don't think that works. I think Auras brought back with Open the Vaults and similar cards have to enchant things that are already in play when you play the spell. So you can't bring back Elemental Master and Altar Golem and have the combo work. I might be wrong on that, though.
Well, Auras are usually targeted, but:

212.4j If an Aura is coming into play by any means other than by being played and the effect putting it into play doesn’t specify the object or player the Aura will enchant, the player putting it into play chooses what it will enchant as the Aura comes into play. The player must choose a legal object or player according to the Aura’s enchant ability and any other applicable effects. If the player can’t make a legal choice, the Aura remains in its current zone, unless that zone is the stack. In that case, the Aura is put into its owner’s graveyard instead of coming into play.

So it should work.



Hey, what are some good sacrifice outlets? I've got a playset of Rotlung Reanimators (http://magiccards.info/on/en/164.html) and some Conspiracies (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/127.html) that are begging to be used.

I know the three altars are good choices, but they are kinda hard for me to find. Other than Thermopod (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/100.html), thats about all I can think of.
Uh...any specific format? Maximum card price? Other preferred colors? 1-on-1 or multiplayer?
I mean, there are quite a lot of outlets. :smallwink:

[Bucky]

Hey, what are some good sacrifice outlets? I've got a playset of Rotlung Reanimators (http://magiccards.info/on/en/164.html) and some Conspiracies (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/127.html) that are begging to be used.

I know the three altars are good choices, but they are kinda hard for me to find. Other than Thermopod (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/100.html), thats about all I can think of.


What colors? Black alone has Carrion Feeder and Vampire Aristocrat/Nantuko Husk, red has Scorched Rusalka and Greater Gargadon, and there's a good artifact finisher in Blasting Station.

[MountainKing]

Archdemon of Unx with Ooze Garden is a cute sac outlet/token generator combo. Sac a non-Zombie to the demon, sac the zombie token to Ooze Garden, sac the Ooze token to the demon, etc.

EDIT: Oh, since you're already in black with Clerics, Deathmark Prelate is a nifty sac engine for your zombie tokens. Also worth consideration is Gutless Ghoul.

[Thelas]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card?
2) Favorite Un-legend?
3) Favorite land (not Un-)?
4) Favorite two-colour pair?
5) The colour you hate to play against the most?
6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.]
7) Favorite spell with Suspend.
8) Favorite Mega Man game?
9) Favorite keyword ability?
10) Least favorite Un-card?
11) Least favorite card (in general)?

Feel free to skip #8.

[tgva8889]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card? Yet Another AEther Vortex.
2) Favorite Un-legend? Does Zzzyxas count?
3) Favorite land (not Un-)? Gaea's Cradle. Due to the abuse it causes.
4) Favorite two-colour pair? Probably GR.
5) The colour you hate to play against the most? Blue.
6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.] Ancestral Recall...?
7) Favorite spell with Suspend. Wheel of Fate
8) Favorite Mega Man game? That one I've played before.
9) Favorite keyword ability? Morph.
10) Least favorite Un-card? All the "Gotcha" cards, for being in general useless for everything.
11) Least favorite card (in general)? Cryptic Command.

There's some answers in there, I'm sure.

[Winterwind]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card?Probably Elvish Impersonators (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/27.html). Because that pun is the ultimate weapon. :smallcool:


2) Favorite Un-legend?Hmm... can't really think of one.


3) Favorite land (not Un-)?I think I'll be boring and go with a simple Seaside Citadel.


4) Favorite two-colour pair?White/Blue.


5) The colour you hate to play against the most?Used to be Black, is quickly becoming Blue (why oh why did I have to give those Swerves to the guy I usually play with? >_<)


6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.]Noble Hierarch. For being tremendously useful for me, the first rare I pulled from my first booster, and the most valuable card in my possession. :smallbiggrin:


7) Favorite spell with Suspend.None, haven't had any experience with Suspend-cards.


8) Favorite Mega Man game?2.


9) Favorite keyword ability?That's easy. Exalted. :smallcool:


10) Least favorite Un-card?None.


11) Least favorite card (in general)?Platinum Angel. Not that I can't deal with it, but it's so incredibly annoying... and only to allow people to say "Nyah, it was just a draw, even though you had me down to several dozen negative life points first!" :smallannoyed:

[tgva8889]

I just noticed, anyone see the Premium Decks: Slivers thing? I really don't want everyone to be playing Slivers. I really, really do not want it.

I will, however, buy the Premium Deck, because I know it will be awesome.

[arguskos]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card?
2) Favorite Un-legend?
3) Favorite land (not Un-)?
4) Favorite two-colour pair?
5) The colour you hate to play against the most?
6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.]
7) Favorite spell with Suspend.
8) Favorite Mega Man game?
9) Favorite keyword ability?
10) Least favorite Un-card?
11) Least favorite card (in general)?

Feel free to skip #8.
1. Yet Another AEther Vortex. So many fun decks! :smallbiggrin:
2. Johnny, Combo Player or Richard Garfield, Ph.D.
3. Either Glacial Chasm or Volcanic Island. The former for being awesome, the latter for being the best UR land printed.
4. Blue/Red.
5. Green/White/Black Recursion. **** YOU GENESIS!! :smallfurious:
6. Lightning Bolt or Brainstorm.
7. Ancestral Vision.
8. Pass.
9. Ooo, so many good choices. Right now, I'll have to say Devour, for being useful in many situations.
10. Look At Me, I'm the DCI, just because MaRo made it, and I don't like him.
11. Arcbound Ravager, for ruining my favorite standard format ever.

[DragonBaneDM]

Salutations! I come to you from the d20 thread to partake of your wisdom! Hahaha, I understand this is the general Magic question thread.

I recently got back into Magic, and I still have a Mirrodin deck from awhile back. I tried it against my friends last night/this morning/tonight, in about a 12 hour tournament. It was fantastic and I dunno how I'm still functioning...

It went pretty well, and I actually found myself keeping up okay. But I didn't win a single game 1 on 1. I wanna know what kind of cards from the later blocks would compliment the main strategems of my red and black artifact destruction deck.

My deck mainly revolves around sacking my own artifacts for some sort of ability. Usually this is damage, and the main staple of my deck is Disciple of the Vault, who does 1 damage to my opponent whenever an artifact goes to the graveyard. I also like artifacts like Pyrite Spellbomb, which go boom to kick my opponent in the teeth.

Also, Atog and Megatog ohm nom nom on my artifacts to get more attack and damage, Megatong gains trample, or in the case of a goblin I have, attack and first strike. Which is fun against death touch creatures.

I have a lot of recylcling cards, like Myr Retreiver and Skeleton Shard, which let me get my sacked artifacts back to blow them up or to satisfy my 'Tog's munchies a bit more.

What do you think I should be on the look for?

[arguskos]

Salutations! I come to you from the d20 thread to partake of your wisdom! Hahaha, I understand this is the general Magic question thread.

I recently got back into Magic, and I still have a Mirrodin deck from awhile back. I tried it against my friends last night/this morning/tonight, in about a 12 hour tournament. It was fantastic and I dunno how I'm still functioning...

It went pretty well, and I actually found myself keeping up okay. But I didn't win a single game 1 on 1. I wanna know what kind of cards from the later blocks would compliment the main strategems of my red and black artifact destruction deck.

My deck mainly revolves around sacking my own artifacts for some sort of ability. Usually this is damage, and the main staple of my deck is Disciple of the Vault, who does 1 damage to my opponent whenever an artifact goes to the graveyard. I also like artifacts like Pyrite Spellbomb, which go boom to kick my opponent in the teeth.

Also, Atog and Megatog ohm nom nom on my artifacts to get more attack and damage, Megatong gains trample, or in the case of a goblin I have, attack and first strike. Which is fun against death touch creatures.

I have a lot of recylcling cards, like Myr Retreiver and Skeleton Shard, which let me get my sacked artifacts back to blow them up or to satisfy my 'Tog's munchies a bit more.

What do you think I should be on the look for?
Well, I have some thoughts, but you might be best off giving us a decklist, so we don't suggest stuff you already have. :smallsmile:

Also, LOVE Mirrodin. Good times there.

[Johnny Blade]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card? Knight of the Hokey Pokey (http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Knight%20of%20the%20Hokey%20Pokey). Fond memories of two crates of beer and one booster box resulting in a hilarious draft come to mind. (EDIT: We picked this box up years after Unglued was released. I hadn't quite reached legal drinking age in 1998.)
2) Favorite Un-legend? Jalum Grifter (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/51.html).
3) Favorite land (not Un-)? Thawing Glaciers (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/189.html). EDH players know why. :smallbiggrin:
4) Favorite two-colour pair? Blue/Red.
5) The colour you hate to play against the most? White. Can be pretty boring.
6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.] Spell Snare. (http://magiccards.info/di/en/33.html)
7) Favorite spell with Suspend. Rift Bolt (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/176.html).
8) Favorite Mega Man game? Uh...pass.
9) Favorite keyword ability? Haste.
10) Least favorite Un-card? Ashnod's Coupon (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/1.html). The errata ruined it.
11) Least favorite card (in general)? Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html). Degenerate piece of **** that needs to be banned. Mindslaver (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/206.html) in multiplayer formats.

Feel free to skip #8.



Well, I have some thoughts, but you might be best off giving us a decklist, so we don't suggest stuff you already have. :smallsmile:
As well as some general information about favorite colors, play style, budget, available editions and such.


Also, LOVE Mirrodin. Good times there.
Oh (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/100.html) yeah, (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/172.html) that (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/146.html) was (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/62.html) such (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/176.html) a (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/206.html) wonderful (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/228.html) block. (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/140.html) <3 (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/91.html)

:smalltongue:

[Mirrinus]

1) Favorite Un-card?

Ambiguity (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74317)

2) Favorite Un-legend?

Frankie Peanuts (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=73950)

3) Favorite land (not Un-)?

Minamo, School at Water's Edge (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=79179)

4) Favorite two-colour pair?

Either Azorius or Izzet, I'm torn between the two.

5) The colour you hate to play against the most?

Black

6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.]

Path to Exile (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179235)

7) Favorite spell with Suspend.

Riftwing Cloudskate (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189249)

8) Favorite Mega Man game?

MegaMari (what? I think it totally counts!)

9) Favorite keyword ability?

Persist

10) Least favorite Un-card?

Ladies' Knight (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74260), for the artwork. The guy's touching Phage the Untouchable (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=106427)!

11) Least favorite card (in general)?

Battle of Wits (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=83133)

[MountainKing]

I'll second Johnny's sentiment; I loathed Mirrodin block. Conversely, everyone I know hated Kamigawa block, but I absolutely loved it.

[Shas aia Toriia]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card? http://magiccards.info/rep/en/2.html
2) Favorite Un-legend? Frankie Peanuts (http://magiccards.info/uh/en/13.html)
3) Favorite land (not Un-)? Island (http://magiccards.info/arena/en/80.html) the best land in the game - the perfect 1 drop.
4) Favorite two-colour pair? Black and White
5) The colour you hate to play against the most? Blue
6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.] Goblin Welder (http://magiccards.info/ul/en/80.html)
7) Favorite spell with Suspend. Ancestral Visions (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/21.html)
9) Favorite keyword ability? The Urza one that untaps your land.
10) Least favorite Un-card? Does 'all' count?
11) Least favorite card (in general)? Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/jvc/en/24.html)


And that's about it.

[Optimystik]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card? Cheatyface
2) Favorite Un-legend? R&D'S Secret Lair.
3) Favorite land (not Un-)? Tie between Terramorphic Expanse and Reliquary Tower. They should have been printed AGES ago.
4) Favorite two-colour pair? U/W - hope you like long games.
5) The colour you hate to play against the most? Black, it does everything that annoys me (discard, LD, and extraction.)
6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.] Sensei's Divining Top.
7) Favorite spell with Suspend. Ancestral Vision.
8) Favorite Mega Man game? X
9) Favorite keyword ability? Split-Second.
10) Least favorite Un-card? Form of the Squirrel.
11) Least favorite card (in general)? Creeping Mold.

Feel free to skip #8.

Now why would I skip 8? :smallsmile:

[DragonBaneDM]

Well, I have some thoughts, but you might be best off giving us a decklist, so we don't suggest stuff you already have. :smallsmile:

Also, LOVE Mirrodin. Good times there.

Right then... Forgive whatever forehead slapping moments of trying to understand my stupidity this my bring. Keep in mind I threw this thing together sorta half-hazardly, and I'm still pretty new at this.

Land
8 Mountain
7 Swamp
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
Creatures
4 Nim Replica
2 Iron Myr
3 Goblin Replica
3 Leaden Myr
2 Myr Retriever
1 Dross Scorpion
2 Cathodion
1 Needlebug
1 Pentavus
2 Rust Elemental
1 Nim Devourer
4 Atog
4 Megatog
3 Disciple of the Vault
2 Krark-Clan Grunt
Artifacts
1 Skeleton Shard
1 Welding Jar
1 Nuisance Engine
2 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Tower of Fortunes
2 Necrogen Spellbomb
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
Instants
1 Yamabushi's Flame
2 Irradiate
1 Shrapnel Blast
1 Distress
1 Shatter

I know some of the Instants don't really "belong", and I should figure out replacements for those. Also, I've got more Myrs and Skeleton Shards on the way. Dunno how much, though.

Now would be a REALLY good time for me to figure out how to use the spoilers...

YES!!!

[Elvaris]

Few questions for people.
1) Favorite Un-card?

Much as I appreciate Phil's... er... Claymore's art on Elvish Impersonators (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9669) (and... you know... the pun...), I'm going to have to go with The Cheese Stands Alone (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9773).

2) Favorite Un-legend?

Eh...

3) Favorite land (not Un-)?

Island of Wak-Wak (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159763). Strictly for the name, and because I miss giving Illusionary Presence (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2512) "Island of Wak-Wak (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159763) Walk" (You can't any more... Damn errata...)

4) Favorite two-colour pair?

Red/White, though I'm building more Black/White at the moment.

5) The colour you hate to play against the most?

I'm not a fan of most resource denial regardless of color... Heavy discard (Black), Counters (Blue), LD (Red), Sweepers (White)

6) Favorite spell that costs (1). [Can be coloured.]

Ashnod's Transmogrant (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=159110)

7) Favorite spell with Suspend.

Hypergenesis (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=113533).

8) Favorite Mega Man game?

Skipped.

9) Favorite keyword ability?

Tempting to say banding just for the reminder text, but I'd be lying (see #11). Probably Haste.

10) Least favorite Un-card?

Not a fan of most of Unhinged (I'm "old", sue me.) But Cheatyface (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=74306) really irks me.

11) Least favorite card (in general)?

Helm of Chatzuk (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3788). It takes a horrible rare to make Chaoslace (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1282) look good at the back of a revised pack. (But I'm not bitter... still... fifteen years later...)

Though when Jester's Cap (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=2410) came out, it was close to being my "I quit the game over that card" card.

Feel free to skip #8.

Skipped.

[Bucky]

Right then... Forgive whatever forehead slapping moments of trying to understand my stupidity this my bring. Keep in mind I threw this thing together sorta half-hazardly, and I'm still pretty new at this.

Land
8 Mountain
7 Swamp
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
Creatures
4 Nim Replica
2 Iron Myr
3 Goblin Replica
3 Leaden Myr
2 Myr Retriever
1 Dross Scorpion
2 Cathodion
1 Needlebug
1 Pentavus
2 Rust Elemental
1 Nim Devourer
4 Atog
4 Megatog
3 Disciple of the Vault
2 Krark-Clan Grunt
Artifacts
1 Skeleton Shard
1 Welding Jar
1 Nuisance Engine
2 Talisman of Indulgence
1 Tower of Fortunes
2 Necrogen Spellbomb
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
Instants
1 Yamabushi's Flame
2 Irradiate
1 Shrapnel Blast
1 Distress
1 Shatter

I know some of the Instants don't really "belong", and I should figure out replacements for those. Also, I've got more Myrs and Skeleton Shards on the way. Dunno how much, though.

Now would be a REALLY good time for me to figure out how to use the spoilers...

YES!!!

Yeah, more Skeleton Shards would be a good idea. There are also some nice colored artifacts from Alara block you might want want to use. Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895), Salvage Titan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174900), Scepter of Fugue (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189084) and Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640) seem to be the best ones in your colors. (blue and white have most of the nice colored artifact creatures). Architects of Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179597), while uncastable in your deck, cycles for B and thus combos with your Shards.

First, though, how's the deck supposed to win? And how did you usually end up losing?

[DragonBaneDM]

Yeah, more Skeleton Shards would be a good idea. There are also some nice colored artifacts from Alara block you might want want to use. Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895), Salvage Titan (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174900), Scepter of Fugue (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189084) and Veinfire Borderpost (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=189640) seem to be the best ones in your colors. (blue and white have most of the nice colored artifact creatures). Architects of Will (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=179597), while uncastable in your deck, cycles for B and thus combos with your Shards.

First, though, how's the deck supposed to win? And how did you usually end up losing?

Executioner's Capsule and Salvage Titan look great. I'm not sure exactly what makes the Borderposts good, but my friend has them in his deck.

The basic strategy of my deck is to sacrifice my own artifacts to gain an effect or two. A really good card for me is Disciple of the Vault, which deals 1 damage. Which essentially equals one damage a turn. Also, I can just sac a bunch of artifacts to a Tog to have a very powerful attacker or blocker at any time. I need one of those to win, essentially.

The Togs are my best monsters, and I can attack with my little 1/1 Myrs early on, killing their 1/1s, and still deal damage with Disciple.

My friends all have rather large manacosts, so I'll get them down to 4 life, and then they'll kill me in one or two turns with really big monsters that even Megatog can't kill.

[Optimystik]

Much as I appreciate Phil's... er... Claymore's art on Elvish Impersonators (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9669) (and... you know... the pun...), I'm going to have to go with The Cheese Stands Alone (http://beta.gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=9773).

You'll be pleased to know (or not) that that one isn't an Un-card anymore. (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/3.html) :smalltongue:


The basic strategy of my deck is to sacrifice my own artifacts to gain an effect or two. A really good card for me is Disciple of the Vault, which deals 1 damage. Which essentially equals one damage a turn. Also, I can just sac a bunch of artifacts to a Tog to have a very powerful attacker or blocker at any time. I need one of those to win, essentially.

Your playgroup lets you use DotV? He's hopelessly broken. (Still banned in Extended, IIRC.)

[Bucky]

Executioner's Capsule and Salvage Titan look great. I'm not sure exactly what makes the Borderposts good, but my friend has them in his deck.
Borderposts' first ability makes them effectively artifact dual lands. Being able to cast them straight is a bonus.



My friends all have rather large manacosts, so I'll get them down to 4 life, and then they'll kill me in one or two turns with really big monsters that even Megatog can't kill.

A few possibilities here:
1)You were making small play mistakes that cost you a few points of damage early on (and by extension the game)
2)Your deck really needs Black-based creature kill (or Terminate)
3)Your deck isn't as good as theirs, or a bad matchup
4)You had a run of bad luck

[Optimystik]

Borderposts' first ability makes them effectively artifact dual lands. Being able to cast them straight is a bonus.

They're not exactly phenomenal at that though. Early game they're worse than the regular taplands like Seaside Citadel or even Coastal Tower, and mid- to late-game there are better options for the same cost like Darksteel Ingot. The whole CiPT thing really ruins them for me. They also are anti-synergistic with nonbasics, which you're probably going to have a few of if you're even playing multicolor to begin with. On the whole, the Ravnica Signets seem to trump them for me.

I do love their art though - they're literally "on the border" between each of the shards. (Mistvein is between Esper and Grixis, Firewild is between Naya and Jund, etc.)

[mikeejimbo]

I actually like the borderposts, although it helps for me that they're artifacts. Doesn't Seaside Citadel come into play tapped too, anyway?

[Optimystik]

I actually like the borderposts, although it helps for me that they're artifacts. Doesn't Seaside Citadel come into play tapped too, anyway?

Yes it does, but you don't have to pay 1 or bounce a basic to play it. They should at least come into play untapped if you have to hardcast them, I think that's reasonable for a 3-mana (colored, no less) investment.

[mikeejimbo]

Yes it does, but you don't have to pay 1 or bounce a basic to play it. They should at least come into play untapped if you have to hardcast them, I think that's reasonable for a 3-mana (colored, no less) investment.

True, but if you have no other lands in your hand, I don't see the problem with returning a land to your hand for just one turn.

I mean, assuming, of course, there's nothing that costs all your mana you want to play. I guess this is a bit of a stretch, since you usually do want to keep mana out.

[Johnny Blade]

True, but if you have no other lands in your hand, I don't see the problem with returning a land to your hand for just one turn.
If you have no other mana in your hand at that time, you're probably not playing a deck that needs a Borderpost, or wants to waste one mana on it.
And a control deck would want actual acceleration.

Also, hardcasting a Borderpost is pretty much an option you're never going to make use of. If they'd cost hybrid mana, maybe, but this way? When would you ever need it?


So, to me, they always seemed pretty much completely useless - they slow you down early on, and are just worse than almost every other artifact mana later.




My friends all have rather large manacosts, so I'll get them down to 4 life, and then they'll kill me in one or two turns with really big monsters that even Megatog can't kill.
Add burn?
Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/146.html), more Shrapnel Blasts and Flame Javelin (http://magiccards.info/shm/en/92.html) should all be easy enough to come by and solve your removal problems as well. (Although Shrapnel Blast is horrible removal now, since you trade 2 cards for 1. Still a good finisher, though.)


Also, cut your deck down to 60 cards. But stay at 23 lands, or maybe even add one. Try to keep something like a mana curve (http://www.essentialmagic.com/Miscellaneous/ManaCurve.asp) in mind - you said you're usually the aggressive deck against slow, more controlling opponents. So you'd probably need a curve that's low enough to play something every turn while still having the potential to play something relevant later on.
You'd probably want about 6-8 creatures for 1 mana, 8 for 2, 6-8 again for 3, then a few for 4 and some more (Megatog and such) for games that really drag on.

[Optimystik]

True, but if you have no other lands in your hand, I don't see the problem with returning a land to your hand for just one turn.

The problem is tempo. Lands that cost you a land drop need to give you something in return (typically more mana than usual), and merely being a dual doesn't cut it. Compare these to the bouncelands in Ravnica (Or the earlier Visions lands, like Karoo.) Those bounce your land, but make up for it by giving you twice as much mana, so tempo-wise you have the same amount of mana you would have if you had just played a regular land.

In fact, The Ravlands are just plain better. They aren't artifacts, so they're harder to remove; you can return a tapped land, meaning you can cast a different spell and then bounce; and they produce both colors at once per tap, rather than only one, making them engines. A G/W deck with Selesnya Sanctuaries can benefit greatly from a Ley Druid or Magus of the Candelabra, just like a blue deck with Chanceries or Boilerworks enjoys playing with Psychic Puppetry and Rewind; none of those tricks works with a borderpost.

Even Rupture Spire is better, providing a greater benefit at a lesser cost (all colors available, no bounce needed) at the same rarity.

[MountainKing]

What are everyone's thoughts on the cycle lands like Barren Moor? Empty draw, just plain bad? I know I personally like them in mono-color decks, especially black decks; I have trouble with card draw in black, with my only real solutions being Skulltap, Promise of Power, and Phyrexian Etchings (the latter of which I only have one each). Etchings I feel is good for black, fitting in perfectly with the theme of "power now, price later", while Promise I feel is a solid hand filler mid-to-late game.

Also, I don't know that my group will be playing anymore EDH, especially since one of our players dropped out. It went approximately how we expected it to go, but the fact that it was EDH made it a little more stressful than normal free-for-alls.

Of the generals, we had Ben-Ben, Balthor (mine), Horde of Notions, Jhoira, Grand Arbiter Agustin IV, and Tsabo Tavoc. The latter two decks were wrecking balls; they swept all the games except one.

Neither of my decks performed well, the black deck getting badly screwed on mana one game (I think I over-shuffled; about 95% of my land was at the bottom), and another it just got screwed in general (I'd hauled out twelve land, a couple artifacts, was playing everything I drew, doing awesomely...), until the Jhoira deck suspended a pile of creatures and then fired off a Warp World. I went from twelve mana on board with a land and a Dark Ritual in hand, to having three land. Sure, I also had a Lord of the Pit with a Breeding Pit, and a Dragon Shadow on the Lord... you'd think having an 8/7 flying, trample, fear would be effective, but... not so much... I got screwed badly on the Warp World, and drew into two more high casting cost cards, neither of which I could play... and then the Arbiter deck dropped Kenderekt Leviathan... I was left with four land, and a handful of six and seven casting cost cards. I scooped after that.

My red deck did what it could, but failed to draw into whatever the particular solution I needed happened to be (at one point, I was so desperate, I blew a Demonfire and a Blockbuster killing off a Shivan Dragon, because that player also had Braid of Fire out (which, with these new rules, is an absolutely RIDICULOUS card).

A word to people looking to make a Jhoira deck. Yes, she's a ridiculously powerful general. No, you don't want to use her in multiplayer EDH. You'll suspend a pile of creatures for cheap, and then everyone on board will go "OMGWTFBBQ". It's a bad scene. One vs. one, go for it. Otherwise... be prepared for sudden surges of united efforts against you. I saw it happen (heck, I participated!), and there's quite a bit, even early on, that can happen to you before that fourth time counter comes off.

[IthilanorStPete]

Borderposts are pretty good if you pair them with Knight of the White Orchid, or if you're using artifacts for Esper-themed stuff like Tezzeret, Master of Etherium, or Time Sieve combo.

MountainKing: The cycle lands are very good, although you'll probably need to bump up your land count a bit. Also, there's some good card draw in black - Night's Whisper, it's new take-off Sign in Blood, Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Arena.

[arguskos]

Black draw is pretty awesome. I like Phyrexian Arena and Promise of Power myself (the former for being awesome, the latter for being a great late-game spell). If you want to be tricky, play Seizan, Perverter of Truth (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/143.html). He's hilariously awesome! :smallbiggrin:

[MountainKing]

Ewww, Confidant? Really? I like to play with some heavy spells, Confidant is just asking for trouble. The other ones are good, though.

[Optimystik]

What are everyone's thoughts on the cycle lands like Barren Moor? Empty draw, just plain bad?

They are quite good; early-game and late-game. They're helpful for players that aren't sure on their decks' optimal amount of land, because they can mitigate both turn 1 screw and late game floods.

Terramorphic Expanse works much the same way, except that it "cycles" for free... so expect to see them a lot less.


I have trouble with card draw in black, with my only real solutions being Skulltap, Promise of Power, and Phyrexian Etchings (the latter of which I only have one each).

Black has always been the second-best card draw color (First, if you allow degenerate cards like Necropotence or Yawgmoth's... anything.) It has lost its edge slightly thanks to green, starting with Harmonize in Planar Chaos and other delightful spells like Soul's Majesty.

However, black still has very powerful card draw spells, like Night's Whisper, Scarscale Ritual, Ambition's Cost, Moonlight Bargain and Infernal Contract, among others.


A word to people looking to make a Jhoira deck. Yes, she's a ridiculously powerful general. No, you don't want to use her in multiplayer EDH. You'll suspend a pile of creatures for cheap, and then everyone on board will go "OMGWTFBBQ". It's a bad scene. One vs. one, go for it. Otherwise... be prepared for sudden surges of united efforts against you. I saw it happen (heck, I participated!), and there's quite a bit, even early on, that can happen to you before that fourth time counter comes off.

Suspend is notoriously weak in multiplayer. You never realize how slow it really is in 1v1. It's still one of my favorite keywords, though.

[arguskos]

Two notes Opti. First, in multiplayer, Necropotence is not really degenerate. Try it, you'll be surprised. Powerful, sure. Degenerate (along the lines of Will and Bargain), no.

Second, gods, Suspend is awesome! Love that ability. I've been wondering about a Jhoira deck that used lots of big sweepers and stuff. Figured it could be some great fun. Might need to build it now.

Also, concerning standard, is there ANYTHING RG aggro can do against 5CC, or am I just screwed?

[MountainKing]

They could Impromptu Raid into a Darksteel Colossus. :smallamused:

[Optimystik]

Two notes Opti. First, in multiplayer, Necropotence is not really degenerate. Try it, you'll be surprised. Powerful, sure. Degenerate (along the lines of Will and Bargain), no.

I was just referring to black draw in general, not multiplayer in particular. You're right of course, anything with a time lag is painful in multiplayer. For multiplayer card draw in black, it doesn't get much better than Syphon Mind (http://magiccards.info/on/en/175.html).

Speaking of time lags...


Second, gods, Suspend is awesome! Love that ability. I've been wondering about a Jhoira deck that used lots of big sweepers and stuff. Figured it could be some great fun. Might need to build it now.

One of the nice things about suspending creatures is that it gives them free haste. If you can find a way to suspend and drain the time counters in the same turn
(multiple time bugs, timecrafting/clockspinning/dust of moments etc.), you can play a wonky Fires (http://magiccards.info/in/en/246.html) kind of deck.


Also, concerning standard, is there ANYTHING RG aggro can do against 5CC, or am I just screwed?

Win quickly :smalltongue:

[arguskos]

...what... I don't even... ugh. /facepalm

I should have seen that one coming honestly. :smallwink:

Really though, I'm running RGb Aggro (budget, since I can't afford T2 duals) and am having issues with 5CC and RGBx Bloodbraid. I can actually handle Elves and other aggro (yay Fallout+Magma Spray), but the control decks are reaming me. I might be forced to rely on Banefire, but I'm looking for any other solution out there.

EDIT: "Win Quickly :smalltongue:" Thanks Opti, always the quality content we've come to love and admire from you. :smalltongue:

As for Suspend, yeah, Hasty Fat Men is pretty fun. I personally like tossing a Bogardan Hellkite up there the turn after I suspend a Decree of Annihilation, and having at it. :smallbiggrin:

[tgva8889]

Borderposts are pretty good if you pair them with Knight of the White Orchid, or if you're using artifacts for Esper-themed stuff like Tezzeret, Master of Etherium, or Time Sieve combo.

They're even better if you also control an Etherium Sculptor.

[mikeejimbo]

In fact, The Ravlands are just plain better. They aren't artifacts, so they're harder to remove; you can return a tapped land, meaning you can cast a different spell and then bounce;

I don't see what prevents you from returning a tapped land with the borderposts, though. I thought returning something you controlled didn't care if it was tapped or not.

[Johnny Blade]

I don't see what prevents you from returning a tapped land with the borderposts, though. I thought returning something you controlled didn't care if it was tapped or not.
He probably meant the alternative cost, which has to be paid with something after all.


Also, I never liked cycling lands. Sure, there are some decks that would gladly cycle later land draws, but those decks are also devastated by having to actually put a land into play tapped.

[mikeejimbo]

He probably meant the alternative cost, which has to be paid with something after all.


Also, I never liked cycling lands. Sure, there are some decks that would gladly cycle later land draws, but those decks are also devastated by having to actually put a land into play tapped.

For my deck though, I think I could take or leave my borderposts. I usually tend to have both enough mana and enough artifacts.

[Johnny Blade]

What deck was that, again?

(Generally, Signets are about twice as good as Borderpost, and Darksteel Ingots are pretty good as well, but that won't help you if you play Standard.)

[mikeejimbo]

The one Mirrinus helped me with. I don't think I posted its current incarnation. Though, you're right, the signets do look nice. Still, I think I might remove the borderposts entirely and put in some more land anyway.

[MountainKing]

I got two Twincasts, a Jace, a Djinn of Wishes, and a Time Warp in a fat pack today. I think someone out there is trying to tell me something. :smallamused:

[tgva8889]

I got two Twincasts, a Jace, a Djinn of Wishes, and a Time Warp in a fat pack today. I think someone out there is trying to tell me something. :smallamused:

What is it? "Trade away these blue rares for other cards"? :smallbiggrin:

I enjoy doing stuff like that in Limited events.

[Mirrinus]

I'm actually a big fan of the Borderposts. Well, the non-green ones, at any rate. Yes, they're worse than taplands on turn 1, and they're worse than other forms of artifact mana on turn 3, but they're the only cards that can do both. This is especially important for colors that traditionally don't have access to mana acceleration (coughUWcough).

Taplands and Ravnica bouncelands can't accelerate you. Signets can't fix your mana on turn 1-2. While Borderposts aren't the best for either situation, they are capable of playing both roles. I've added 4x borderposts to most of my UW decks now (Isperia toolbox, Twilight Shepherd blink, and my Standard UW control), and I've been very pleased with them thus far. The color fixing for turn 2 is great, letting me cast Knight of the White Orchid or Deft Duelist with ease on turn 2 (and yes, the synergy with the Knight has been pointed out, and it's awesome). I have also played borderposts on turn 3 several times before, accelerating me to a turn 4 Isperia or Mulldrifter, or even Twilight Shepherd (with help from a Knight), or just casting a 3-drop like Mangara of Corondor with mana up to protect him. Yes, Azorius Chancery can synergize with the Knight, and Arcane Sanctum can fix mana for turn 2, and Azorius Signet can accelerate me, but only the Borderposts can fill in all of these roles.

Actually, the other reason why I like Borderposts over signets is that Borderposts can effectively take up a land slot instead of a spell slot. When running signets, I still have to make sure I play at least 23 lands, because it sucks to have a land and a signet or two in your starting hand. But with Borderposts, such a hand is keepable (especially if you're also packing the Knight), so I can swap Borderposts 1-for-1 with lands so long as I'm running enough basics. And since I have so many turn 2 plays anyway in most of my decks (including just dropping a bounceland), I figured that signets would be less than ideal. Of course, I still run signets for enemy color decks...

Borderposts aren't for every deck. I would only really recommend them for 2-color decks with color-intensive turn 2 plays, that also have some sweet bigger spells worth accelerating into. Or if you somehow seek to abuse what are essentially artifact dual lands. Their artifact nature isn't a total weakness all the time, either. After all, I'd much rather have a Borderpost than a bounceland if my opponent is packing land destruction or Boomerang, and they're still superior to Signets after some random Armageddon-type effect (lousy Realm Razers...).

[MountainKing]

What is it? "Trade away these blue rares for other cards"? :smallbiggrin:

I enjoy doing stuff like that in Limited events.

Sorry, that's not it! The answer is more along the lines of "Make a new mono-blue deck!" :smallamused:

EDIT: Argus, is this a Standard legal deck, or Extended? I ask... because I care.

[Mystic Muse]

okay. everybody ignore tournament legality because this is just me playing with my friends. I got a few new cards recently and was thinking of putting them in my deck. here's the strategy.

get out darksteel forge (all artifacts I control are indestructible)

play platinum angel (as long as he's in play I can't lose the game and my opponents can't win the game.)

out whispersilk cloack on platinum angel. (make him so he can't be the target of spells or abilities.)
I plan on having several whispersilk cloaks because some of my cousins have destroy and remove effects.

with this there's only one remove effect left and that's furnace dragon. he's the only one who can effect my guy at that point and I have a partially blue deck so I can just counterspell and the only person with furnace dragon has no return to your hand abilities.

[arguskos]

MountainKing, thanks for noticing. It's Standard legal. I actually sorta need some aid soon, because FNM is tomorrow, and I haven't gone in months. I keep up on the format, but haven't actually played in awhile.

EDIT: Decklist time!
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Flame Javelin
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Tattermunge Maniac
4 Jund Hackblade
4 Blightning
4 Boggart Ram-Gang
4 Colossal Might
3 Manamorphose

4 Savage Land
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Vivid Crag
1 Vivid Marsh
14 basics, mostly mountains

Note that I lack any other duals, and no way to get them. I've played Ball Lightnings here, and they aren't good enough to run main (trust extensive testing on this one). My sideboard is 2 Volcanic Fallout, 2 Guttural Response, 4 Banefire, 4 Magma Spray, 3 undecided. I can't seem to acquire the other Gutturals or Volcanics for the life of me. :smallannoyed:

[Mirrinus]

okay. everybody ignore tournament legality because this is just me playing with my friends. I got a few new cards recently and was thinking of putting them in my deck. here's the strategy.

get out darksteel forge (all artifacts I control are indestructible)

play platinum angel (as long as he's in play I can't lose the game and my opponents can't win the game.)

out whispersilk cloack on platinum angel. (make him so he can't be the target of spells or abilities.)
I plan on having several whispersilk cloaks because some of my cousins have destroy and remove effects.

with this there's only one remove effect left and that's furnace dragon. he's the only one who can effect my guy at that point and I have a partially blue deck so I can just counterspell and the only person with furnace dragon has no return to your hand abilities.

Just hope your friends don't decide to start packing Final Judgment, Hallowed Burial, Mutilate, Bane of the Living, Living Death/Living End, Death Cloud, Decree of Annihilation, False Prophet, etc. Sadly, even a strategy involving an indestructible and untargetable creature still can have many answers.

[Mystic Muse]

that's true. however that's also the reason blue has "counter" abilities.:smallwink:

oh and only one of my friends has a deck like that. the main thing I'm afraid of is all of them will know what I have and decide to kill me.:smallannoyed::smallmad::smallfurious:

[The Extinguisher]

So I built the Teferi EDH deck, and I rocked my friends Momir Vig deck which has been the top of the pile.

I won with Eternal Dominion (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=87593)! That never happens.

[arguskos]

Did you Twincast it, FMA? Because that'd be awesome. :smallcool:

[The Extinguisher]

No. But I almost ended up Quickening it. I had both in my hand for the longest time.

[arguskos]

Heh, good times.

On that note, how's Quicken working out for you? I run Vedalken Orrery, and LOOOVE it. Great damn card. Is Quicken worth running as well?

[The Extinguisher]

The Orrey's nice, but I like quicken for three reasons. It's cheap, it cantrips and isn't as easily gotten rid of.

[Optimystik]

EDIT: "Win Quickly :smalltongue:" Thanks Opti, always the quality content we've come to love and admire from you. :smalltongue:

I may end up with an ego sig yet...


He probably meant the alternative cost, which has to be paid with something after all.

Correct. Because you have to pay 1 AND bounce a land, the typical move will be to bounce the land you just used to pay 1 with.

@ Mirrinus: I see your point; they have as many drawbacks as they do because they have the advantage of versatility. I don't quite give them the "must-have" status in an Azorius deck that you do, however. U/W is quite good at both card draw and library manipulation, and you're likely to have cheap spells that do that anyway (like Ponder, Telling Time, Wayfarer etc.) so the mana fixing advantage can be duplicated at little cost to your deck. Because the versatility can be circumvented, the accel argument is right out; there are so many better options to hardcast (even the horrendous Seashell Cameo (http://magiccards.info/in/en/311.html) accelerates better.)

In fact, if I want an allied land that both accelerates and fixes, I'd still skip the borderposts in favor of storage lands like Calciform Pools. (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/270.html) They can give me colorless the turn they come into play, or I can treat them exactly like a borderpost by spending 1 and getting colored mana next turn.

Finally, an argument like "borderposts dodge LD" isn't very strong either. Artifact hate is much more prevalent than land hate in any given game, but especially casual. And a borderpost is just as vulnerable to a turn 2 boomerang as a ravland is. But I do agree with your 1-for-1 land substitution statement.

[arguskos]

The Orrey's nice, but I like quicken for three reasons. It's cheap, it cantrips and isn't as easily gotten rid of.
That's a good point. Orrery works on everything though. It's a tough decision. I might try out Quicken though, see how it works.

Quickening an Eternal Dominion is pretty hilarious though.
You: EOT, Eternal Dominion.
Everyone else: ....wot? o.O

[The Extinguisher]

Run both. Quicken for early game. I love Quickening a Ponder.


But yeah, I only ever got one use out of the epic. The first creature was for the heavy flier to stop what was killing me, and the second was for Cytoplast Manipulator, which gave me complete control over his deck. He folded there.

[arguskos]

He didn't have a response to Manipulator? In a Momir deck? Even with HEAAAVY graft-focus, I can't imagine that he didn't have a way to bounce/kill Manipulator. Still, a win's a win! Sounds fun, in any case.

[The Extinguisher]

I had enough answers on the board already. Teferi, plus Vesuvan Shapeshifter. I also think he forget that Epic means I couldn't counter anything anymore. Eh, live and learn.

On the plus side, I got myself a Scepter, a Panoptic Mirror, and one more thing for the deck. Can't remember what, but it was a killer.

[Mirrinus]

And a borderpost is just as vulnerable to a turn 2 boomerang as a ravland is.

No, bouncing a borderpost on turn 2 is no different from bouncing a normal tapland. Bouncing a Ravnica karoo land is a much worse tempo loss, equivalent to bouncing two lands at once, because Karoos count for 2 land drops.

I don't like storage lands for fixing because you need to first spend 2 mana to charge them (counting the land itself tapping) before you even get to use the fixing. They also don't accelerate well at all, because you must spend several turns (at least 2) charging them before they can start paying any dividends towards acceleration. They're good for draw-go style decks that need to build up a lot of mana, but not for what I'm trying to build. In my decks with heavier colored mana requirements, especially on turn 2, storage lands are not an option at all.

Since many of my UW decks are more heavily white, I cannot rely on first-turn Ponder to smooth my land. Might as well let the manabase fix itself, although there's really no problem with running both, as the Borderposts take up a land slot anyway. Also, it's a bad idea to rely on card drawing spells like Ponder and Telling Time to get you out of mana screw or color screw, because cantrips in your opening hand (even selective ones) make it more difficult to properly assess whether you should mulligan or not. That's why cards like Street Wraith and Manamorphose have lost a lot of popularity despite their initial status as "free deck thinning".

[arguskos]

I had enough answers on the board already. Teferi, plus Vesuvan Shapeshifter. I also think he forget that Epic means I couldn't counter anything anymore. Eh, live and learn.

On the plus side, I got myself a Scepter, a Panoptic Mirror, and one more thing for the deck. Can't remember what, but it was a killer.
Remember, Panoptic Mirror is banned in EDH. Yeah, those are only recommendations technically, but I support that one, since Mirror is dangerously broken in the format.

[MountainKing]

Argus, have you tried out Thunderblust or Hell's Thunder? The latter is relatively cheap (at least online), at a little less than $2.50 each (which, is not bad, IMO), and I can vouch for its effectiveness... even without owning any Bloodbraid Elves (which can Cascade you into Hell's Thunder. So tasty).

[Optimystik]

No, bouncing a borderpost on turn 2 is no different from bouncing a normal tapland. Bouncing a Ravnica karoo land is a much worse tempo loss, equivalent to bouncing two lands at once, because Karoos count for 2 land drops.

Ah right, you can replay the same plains after you drop a borderpost. I'd forgotten that. They're not quite as bad as I originally thought then.


I don't like storage lands for fixing because you need to first spend 2 mana to charge them (counting the land itself tapping) before you even get to use the fixing. They also don't accelerate well at all, because you must spend several turns (at least 2) charging them before they can start paying any dividends towards acceleration. They're good for draw-go style decks that need to build up a lot of mana, but not for what I'm trying to build. In my decks with heavier colored mana requirements, especially on turn 2, storage lands are not an option at all.

Therein lies the difference between us, because I love draw-go. :smallamused: I can see your point though.


Remember, Panoptic Mirror is banned in EDH. Yeah, those are only recommendations technically, but I support that one, since Mirror is dangerously broken in the format.

It's banned in Commander (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/15a) too, which is the officially sanctioned form of EDH. So yeah.

[MountainKing]

The flavor quote on Carnival of Souls just made me laugh and feel sad at the same time. Does that make me less human? :smallconfused:

[Johnny Blade]

The flavor quote on Carnival of Souls just made me laugh and feel sad at the same time. Does that make me less human? :smallconfused:
Well, I don't know who exactly Davvol was, but pitying Phyrexians is really nothing to be proud of. :smallwink:

[MountainKing]

Davvol was the evincar of Rath before Crovax (aka Ascendant Evincar). :smallbiggrin: He was also an abominable human being, featuring on such things as Soul Feast.

[Optimystik]

Well, I don't know who exactly Davvol was, but pitying Phyrexians is really nothing to be proud of. :smallwink:

Davvol was the first Evincar of Rath, Yawgmoth's flowstone staging ground for his invasion of Dominaria. Needless to say, he wasn't very well suited for the job.

Not that Yawgmoth ended up pleased with ANY of his evincars, given their abject failure at the whole subjugate-the-multiverse thing.

EDIT:


Davvol was the evincar of Rath before Crovax (aka Ascendant Evincar). :smallbiggrin: He was also an abominable human being, featuring on such things as Soul Feast.

He was before Volrath, actually. Volrath was before Crovax. I think there was one between Davvol and Volrath too.

He was also on Encroach (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/59.html)

[MountainKing]

Can you really blame the evincars, though? I mean, really? Who knew Urza was going to take a flying boat, a golem, and a human, yell "AUTOBOTS ROLL OUT" to make the Legacy Weapon? This coming AFTER the same guy turned planeswalkers into giant mechasuit quantum bombs to nuke Phyrexia itself!

Really, not their fault Urza was a BAMF.

EDIT: All I said was he was before Crovax; I couldn't remember if Volrath actually took a turn as evincar or if he just helped put Crovax into power. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT 2: There was a female Phyrexian agent who was supposed to be evincar material, but she didn't want the position... I think she put Volrath in her place? Or something?

[Optimystik]

Can you really blame the evincars, though? I mean, really? Who knew Urza was going to take a flying boat, a golem, and a human, yell "AUTOBOTS ROLL OUT" to make the Legacy Weapon? This coming AFTER the same guy turned planeswalkers into giant mechasuit quantum bombs to nuke Phyrexia itself!

Really, not their fault Urza was a BAMF.

I always hated Urza. All that power just went to his head, and he ended up being a patsy to Yawgmoth (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/57.html) like everyone else. At least he got what he deserved. (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/330.html)

Sure, he fought Yawgmoth, but Freyalise, Barrin and Daria were right to hate his guts; and Teferi and Jhoira ended up having to clean up his mess.


EDIT: All I said was he was before Crovax; I couldn't remember if Volrath actually took a turn as evincar or if he just helped put Crovax into power. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, Volrath was Evincar. Here he is on his throne (http://magiccards.info/sh/en/104.html), and here Crovax supplants him. (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/55.html) (In fact, Crovax's rise to power was the story behind the entire Nemesis set.)


EDIT 2: There was a female Phyrexian agent who was supposed to be evincar material, but she didn't want the position... I think she put Volrath in her place? Or something?

You're thinking of Xantcha, and she was a sleeper agent, not a potential evincar :smallsmile: In fact, she's the girl depicted on Sleeper Agent (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/178.html) (also Ill-Gotten Gains (http://magiccards.info/us/en/138.html) and some other cards.)

[Ferreon]

how do epic spells work with maelstrom nexus? or do they not?

[MountainKing]

Noooo, I don't think that's what I'm thinking of... I could've sworn there were four people up for evincar: Davvol, Crovax, Volrath, and someone I can't remember, and am about to dive into the Magic wiki for.

[Johnny Blade]

You're thinking of Xantcha, and she was a sleeper agent, not a potential evincar :smallsmile: In fact, she's the girl depicted on Sleeper Agent (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/178.html) (also Ill-Gotten Gains (http://magiccards.info/us/en/138.html) and some other cards.)
Or Belbe (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/126.html), who also appeared in Nemesis (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6731331.html).


Also, I went looking for Davvol and, apparently, I really should've known who he was, given that he appears on one particular card (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/52.html) that I play in my most used EDH deck (Sek'Kuar).
You can blame my complete disregard for every storyline that featured the "You believe me a god among mortals? Really? Well, tell me, can a mere god do THAT?" planeswalkers of times past and hopefully soon forgotten. :smallwink:

[MountainKing]

Yeah, I'm thinking of Belbe, who wasn't an evincar at all, just in charge of choosing the evincars. Crovax overpowered Volrath with the help of Ertai (which was cheating, but this. Is. PHYREXIAAAAAA), which forced Belbe to name Crovax the new evincar.

...now I feel kind of stupid, for thinking Belbe was an evincar candidate.

[Johnny Blade]

how do epic spells work with maelstrom nexus? or do they not?
Cascade mentions playing the spell, so you can look for one, but the active Epic ability will prevent you from doing anything else.

[Optimystik]

Or Belbe (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/126.html), who also appeared in Nemesis (http://magiccards.info/query/cards/6731331.html).

Eh? Belbe wasn't a sleeper agent. She was created from the corpse of Eladamri's daughter Avila (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/129.html) solely to pick the next Evincar of Rath. She never set foot on Dominaria as far as I know - Eladamri euthanized her after she helped him and Takara escape (http://magiccards.info/ne/en/127.html) to keep her from falling further under Yawgmoth's control.

EDIT: Scratch all that, I just realized you were putting Belbe forth as an alternative, not a sleeper agent. :smallredface: I'll leave it up for lore's sake though...


You can blame my complete disregard for every storyline that featured the "You believe me a god among mortals? Really? Well, tell me, can a mere god do THAT?" planeswalkers of times past and hopefully soon forgotten. :smallwink:

Oh I agree completely - the new planeswalkers are SO much better than the old. Really, it was ridiculous how unbalanced the Urza's generation was. Now it even makes sense for a regular mage to be able to beat one and seize their spark, which adds greatly to the "hunted" feel that most of them have.

Their designs are also badass. I LOVE Garruk's look, and considering I can't stand green, that's really something.


Cascade mentions playing the spell, so you can look for one, but the active Epic ability will prevent you from doing anything else.

It won't even get that far, because Epic puts its copy directly on the stack a la Mirari - you never actually play it, so Cascade won't even trigger.

[The Extinguisher]

Remember, Panoptic Mirror is banned in EDH. Yeah, those are only recommendations technically, but I support that one, since Mirror is dangerously broken in the format.

Haha. Well, that's good. Turns out I didn't get the mirror anyway. I got Mindslaver instead.

[Mystic Muse]

I need some help real quick.

there's this card I'm looking for. I can't seem to find it on the gatherer. it's effect is "if you control a creature with power ten or more you gain ten life and if you control a creature with power twenty or more you win the game." It's called something like "amayel's blessing" I think.

anybody know what card I'm talking about.:smallconfused:

[arguskos]

Mayael's Aria (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/121.html)

Ta-da!

[Mystic Muse]

thank you arguskos. you saved me the trouble of looking through about twenty binders at my local gaming store.:smallbiggrin:

[MountainKing]

AH HA! I was right! There *was* another evincar candidate, during Volrath's absence and return: Greven!

...now I feel even worse for forgetting him.

[Optimystik]

That question got me thinking: What's the flavor behind "win the game" cards? I can easily understand why a card like Door to Nothingness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/115.html) can end the game instantly (you suck the opposing planeswalker into a null reality, erasing them from existence) , but how would a card like Darksteel Reactor (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/114.html) or Helix Pinnacle (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/68.html) work in flavor terms? Is the reactor the power source for some massive, unseen extraplanar bomb or cannon? Does Battle of Wits (http://magiccards.info/9e/en/65.html) give you perfect precognition, preventing your opponent from doing anything? How do they make you, a planeswalker, defeat an opponent?

[MountainKing]

As far as Reactor and Helix go, I look at them as being kind of like the peaceful win condition in the Civilization games. You've become the pinnacle of advancement, unapproachable yet benevolent.

Battle of Wits, I think comes down to how you just put it. "The wizard who reads a thousand books is wise. "The wizard who memorizes a thousand books is insane." There have been tons of examples of madness equating to power in the game; perhaps Battle of Wits is the exemplary balance between madness and sanity? Or perhaps the clarity of true madness enables you to wield power or knowledge that other planeswalkers simply cannot.

[arguskos]

Two things.

First, I liked the old planeswalkers, mostly for being LARGE HAMS! :smallbiggrin: Karn was cool, Teferi was... special, Urza was actually an interesting character, showing just what happens when you dive that deep into madness, and I liked that. Besides, Tevesh Szat and Leshrac were awesome.

Second, about the flavor of "you win the game" cards, eh? I always figured most were "fulfill this requirement, and the state of being you reach allows you to transcend silly little duals like this one." It makes sense to me.

[Winterwind]

While we're talking about fluff, are there any stories/novels/whatever that focus on the Alara-block?

And if so, are they worth it or are they as trashy as novel series based on popular games typically tend to be?

[MountainKing]

...I dunno if your statement is meant to be inclusive or anything, but the novels I've read relating to the storyline of Magic have been anything BUT trashy... I was especially fond of the Eventide book; I even got weepy and cried near the end.

[Optimystik]

Second, about the flavor of "you win the game" cards, eh? I always figured most were "fulfill this requirement, and the state of being you reach allows you to transcend silly little duals like this one." It makes sense to me.

That would make sense, except that you can duel just about anything in Magic, even a god. Invasion could be summed up as a giant team duel between Yawgmoth, Urza and Gaea. Presumably there is no level of power beyond the reach of a planeswalker to contest (or was, which is another one of the reasons I prefer the neo-planeswalkers so much to the old.)


While we're talking about fluff, are there any stories/novels/whatever that focus on the Alara-block?

And if so, are they worth it or are they as trashy as novel series based on popular games typically tend to be?

There are (http://wizards.com/Magic/Novels/Product.aspx?x=mtg/novels/product/alaraunbroken), but I tend to avoid the novels myself. All the pertinent info usually ends up online, and everything else is even more flufftastic than the game's actual fluff. (For example, why do I care that Agrus Kos is a hard-boiled detective?)


...I dunno if your statement is meant to be inclusive or anything, but the novels I've read relating to the storyline of Magic have been anything BUT trashy... I was especially fond of the Eventide book; I even got weepy and cried near the end.

I'd love to give that setting a try; sadly, the Invasion and Mirrodin books soured me on Magic fiction. Like the Warcraft books, they seem written more to appeal to lovers of spectacle ("Boom! Whoosh!") than to tell a credible yarn.

Now if they started some M:TG GRAPHIC novels, I'd be extremely interested.

[Winterwind]

...I dunno if your statement is meant to be inclusive or anything, but the novels I've read relating to the storyline of Magic have been anything BUT trashy... I was especially fond of the Eventide book; I even got weepy and cried near the end.I haven't ever read any kind of Magic novel, that's why I was asking. Usually, novel series based on popular games or other fictional universes (BattleTech, ShadowRun, Star Wars, etc.) tend to be really, really, really, really, really low-brow and low-quality, consisting of nothing but Mary Sue characters showing off their perfection in some flashy spectacle with little narrative substance. :smallwink:
All the better to hear the ones for Magic are better. :smallsmile:


There are (http://wizards.com/Magic/Novels/Product.aspx?x=mtg/novels/product/alaraunbroken), but I tend to avoid the novels myself. All the pertinent info usually ends up online, and everything else is even more flufftastic than the game's actual fluff. (For example, why do I care that Agrus Kos is a hard-boiled detective?)Hmmm, alright, thank you. :smallsmile:
Though I cannot say this excerpt chapter bodes too well for its quality... :/

[Optimystik]

Here's another problem with the Magic books: in Guildpact, the Nephilim are portrayed as cosmic, world-ending horrors; in the game... yeah.

Glissa fights Memnarch at the end of 5th dawn, and wins by pushing him off a cliff. I guess having an arachnoid body doesn't grant much stability.

And Hanna's death in Invasion (and Agnate's, and Tsabo's) was Narm (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Narm)-tastic.


Hmmm, alright, thank you. :smallsmile:
Though I cannot say this excerpt chapter bodes too well for its quality... :/

Don't say I didn't warn you :smallsigh:

[The Extinguisher]

Honestly, Agents of Artifice was entertaining and a good read. Apparently, so is Purifying Fire.

[Johnny Blade]

It won't even get that far, because Epic puts its copy directly on the stack a la Mirari - you never actually play it, so Cascade won't even trigger.
Uh...oh. I maybe should have checked how Epic works... :smallredface:



That question got me thinking: What's the flavor behind "win the game" cards? I can easily understand why a card like Door to Nothingness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/115.html) can end the game instantly (you suck the opposing planeswalker into a null reality, erasing them from existence) , but how would a card like Darksteel Reactor (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/114.html) or Helix Pinnacle (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/68.html) work in flavor terms? Is the reactor the power source for some massive, unseen extraplanar bomb or cannon? Does Battle of Wits (http://magiccards.info/9e/en/65.html) give you perfect precognition, preventing your opponent from doing anything? How do they make you, a planeswalker, defeat an opponent?
I always thought they were stupid, really. I mean, Barren Glory (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/3.html)? "Fear my complete defenselessness!"
Coalition Victory (http://magiccards.info/in/en/241.html)? That one's more of a joke, really. "So a goblin, an elf, a soldier, a faerie and a rat walk into a battle. They win." (The punchline is a little weak.)



Hmmm, alright, thank you. :smallsmile:
Though I cannot say this excerpt chapter bodes too well for its quality... :/
Well, honestly now, what would you expect from a book about NICOL BOLAS? :smallamused:

[Kyouhen]

So, I've been out of the MTG loop for a while and am starting to get back in. I notice Relentless Rats got reprinted. Here's what I want to do but am unsure how to do it. I want to make a T2 deck based on Relentless Rats that has a way to basically say 'I win' should anyone hit me with something like Haunting Echoes or Thought Hemorrhage. Something that would make it very easy to win when there's next to nothing left in my deck. Anyone have any ideas?

[Winterwind]

Well, honestly now, what would you expect from a book about NICOL BOLAS? :smallamused:Actually, I found the fluff (and usually, art) on the cards where he features quite stirring, usually.
This excerpt, not so much.

[Optimystik]

I always thought they were stupid, really. I mean, Barren Glory (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/3.html)? "Fear my complete defenselessness!"
Coalition Victory (http://magiccards.info/in/en/241.html)? That one's more of a joke, really. "So a goblin, an elf, a soldier, a faerie and a rat walk into a battle. They win." (The punchline is a little weak.)

But funny nonetheless :smallbiggrin:

Barren Glory is odd. I can understand the whole "I abandon all my other spells and trappings, and thus achieve perfection" motif from the flavor text, but how does that translate into you winning? If anything it should cause a draw, a la Divine Intervention (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/177.html). The flavor is even the same - look at the art for Barren Glory closely and you'll see a giant hand of white mana (http://shadow.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/arcana/1320&print=true&print=true) is protecting the last outpost in the entire world. It's literal divine intervention. If you can't touch me, then neither of us have won, in my opinion.

CV is just plain cheese, I've never liked it. Vanguard "fixed" it by simply giving you a platinum angel effect if you assembled all the pieces rather than winning outright.

[Kyouhen]

With Barren Glory what if it's a case of "Well you have nothing left worth conquering/fighting, so I'm just going to leave now"?

[Optimystik]

Actually, I found the fluff (and usually, art) on the cards where he features quite stirring, usually.
This excerpt, not so much.

Agreed. Having him as Xanatos for M:TG was a pretty cool development to me.

The scheming baddies sure like their (http://magiccards.info/cfx/en/102.html) rainbows (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/123.html) though.

[MountainKing]

Sudden thought: has anyone considered running Shrewd Hatchling with Horobi, Death's Wail? I know Horobi is a wicked scary double edged sword, but the combo could work well...

[Johnny Blade]

About Nicol Bolas: You may or may not like characters like that - I think someone at WotC has a serious crush on him, and the result is a lot of potential wasted through sheer pompousness - but can you think of him as the focus of an actual novel?
I can, and it's nothing I'd pay for. :smallwink:



Sudden thought: has anyone considered running Shrewd Hatchling with Horobi, Death's Wail? I know Horobi is a wicked scary double edged sword, but the combo could work well...
Goblin Sharpshooter (http://magiccards.info/on/en/207.html)?

[keeperoflore]

I've been wanting to get into Magic for a good bit of time now, but i dont really have the option to play with people i know(small town, no one plays) so im looking into Magic Online, i looked at the first post and it said something about bots that give free cards, what is this about?

thanks for any help i get.

[MountainKing]

...KHAAAAAAAAAAAN! :smallfurious: *shakes fist at Johnny*

Fine, so your combo is way better. Phooey I say! At least Hatchling is a better beatstick.

[tgva8889]

That question got me thinking: What's the flavor behind "win the game" cards? I can easily understand why a card like Door to Nothingness (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/115.html) can end the game instantly (you suck the opposing planeswalker into a null reality, erasing them from existence) , but how would a card like Darksteel Reactor (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/114.html) or Helix Pinnacle (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/68.html) work in flavor terms? Is the reactor the power source for some massive, unseen extraplanar bomb or cannon? Does Battle of Wits (http://magiccards.info/9e/en/65.html) give you perfect precognition, preventing your opponent from doing anything? How do they make you, a planeswalker, defeat an opponent?

Well, since Planeswalkers used to be indestructible beings (at least when most of those cards were created. The only one for which that is not true is Helix Pinnacle), I believe that early on, games of Magic were merely contests of skill between Planeswalkers When you played these cards, you changed your goal in the contest. When you transform the contest into a Battle of Wits, your goal becomes to prove that you are, in fact, the mage of greater wits while your opponent tries to stop you.

That's my two cents.

[mikeejimbo]

Reminds me of the set I'm working on in Magic Set Editor: Mageball. When you play the card Mageball Season, the goal for all players becomes scoring 10 touchdowns.

[Johnny Blade]

Well, since Planeswalkers used to be indestructible beings (at least when most of those cards were created. The only one for which that is not true is Helix Pinnacle), I believe that early on, games of Magic were merely contests of skill between Planeswalkers
Helix what? Wait, let me look...huh.

"Ha! While you have summoned armies of followers, I have built a really high pillar out of pure mana! Look at the colors! And it glows in the dark! Don't you feel stupid now, trying to win a duel with violence?"



(The only instant win card I could ever make sense of is Chance Encounter, by the way - I always assumed that you were so lucky that your next spell or that of your opponent would randomly result in an elephant falling from the sky and landing on your adversary.

Of course, it could also be interpreted as something like:
"Hold! ... I win."
"What!? Why? I have three dragons under my command. All you've got is some goblin (http://magiccards.info/ug/en/37.html) that you summoned from a casino!"
"Yeah, but I found a nickel on the street this morning. Sucker.")

[Mirrinus]

I've been wanting to get into Magic for a good bit of time now, but i dont really have the option to play with people i know(small town, no one plays) so im looking into Magic Online, i looked at the first post and it said something about bots that give free cards, what is this about?

thanks for any help i get.

I too don't know many people who play, so I play primarily on MTGO as well. As for the free card bots, there are a few (the most notable one is MTGOTradersFreeBot, I think) who let you take a certain number of common cards for free each month.

I can help you get started on MTGO if you'd like. My username is Parallaxal.

If you haven't signed up yet, I'd like to point out what's going on after August 5th. According to the new player account changes (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1224880) that was just announced, if you sign up after August 5th you'll get 150 free basic lands and 150 free M2010 common and uncommon cards, arranged into 5 pre-built decks, plus one free M2010 booster pack and 2 free event tickets, all for the same price a regular account costs. You will not, however, get the $9.99 store credit that you would have gotten if you signed up before August 5th. I'm not sure which you'd rather prefer; the M2010 cards are probably worth a fair bit if you get them early, since even commons like Lightning Bolt will be pricy due to lower supply in MTGO right now. Just something to consider.


Sudden thought: has anyone considered running Shrewd Hatchling with Horobi, Death's Wail? I know Horobi is a wicked scary double edged sword, but the combo could work well...

How about Cauldron Haze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151060) as a 2-mana, instant speed, one-sided Wrath of God that will still be in Extended post-rotation and can be played in a mono-black deck with Horobi? Sure is less awkward than Shrewd Hatchling.

Deathbringer Thoctar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180622) is another good, if more mana-intensive, choice.

On another note, my official personal nickname for my favorite card, Twilight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197034), is now Frederica Bernkastel. Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.

[Mirrinus]

My brother recently bought around a thousand cards for about one-hundred dollars. He bought; a fat pack of core ten, a box of Alra Reborn(grrr) two structure decks, and some packs. Now I got a bunch of multi color cards even though I wanted single cards. Signs point to Blue/White and Green/Red. So when I get around to it, I’ll try to build a better deck then what I’ve mustered up to this point(mostly pathetic-ness). So any advice to starting a deck? Something better than “Have a theme!” or “Just put cards that look good together in”?

Basic deckbuilding advice:

1. Stick to just 60 cards maindeck. Until you truly know when this rule should be broken, don't bother trying to break this rule. This gives you the best chances of seeing your best cards each game.

2. Play around 24 lands on average. Although the correct amount of lands you should play varies depending on your mana curve and color requirements, 24 is pretty standard. If you're building a control deck, you should consider playing more mana sources. You can consider removing 1 land for every cheap non-land mana source or accelerator, like Birds of Paradise, but you generally don't want these to cost more than 2 or 3 mana, nor should you drop below 22 lands unless your deck's mana curve is really, really low. If your deck plays at least 12+ basic lands, you can swap in Borderposts as a 1-for-1 trade with land (I know you must have opened some from Alara Reborn).

3. Have a proper mana curve. You want something to do each in the early game. Lands that enter the battlefield tapped (like the tri-lands in Alara block) count as a turn-1 play. Ideally, you'd have several cards that can be played on turn 2, and several more on turn 3. Your deck should contain fewer 4+ mana cards, but keep an eye out for cards that have alternate costs or other uses. Unless you're playing heavy control or mana-ramp, your deck should contain much more 1-3 mana spells than 4+ mana spells.

4. Get your colors correct. Count up the number of colored mana symbols on the top right-hand corner of all your cards and in activated abilities, then form a rough ratio of what colors your lands should be able to produce.

5. Have some sort of game plan. This doesn't always mean playing with a theme like Esper Artifacts or Jund Devour. It means having a plan for how you want to win (beatdown, control, combo, etc.), then making sure that each card you're playing works towards that strategy. It's been said that there are really only 9 major archetypes of Magic deck design, and figuring out which you are or which parts of the metagame clock you're playing would help immensely in deck construction. You can take ideas from previous successful decks and adapt them to your cardpool. I recommend reading this article (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/370207).

6. Enchant Creature auras are not your friends, unless it's named Rancor or you're playing Tallowisp. Joking aside, Enchant Creature aura spells are considered the worst card type in the game, and should be avoided under most circumstances. This is because they carry inherent card disadvantage; if the creature you're enchanting dies, you lost both a creature and an aura, thus losing 2 cards to your opponent's 1 kill spell. Card advantage is a huge part of the game, and the basis of control decks; whoever has card advantage is more likely to win in the long run. This rule does not apply to Enchant Creature auras that are played on your opponent's creatures, though, like Pacifism. There are also some auras that negate their inherent card disadvantage by either protecting the creature, drawing you extra cards, or some other benefit; these would more reasonably see play. Auras aren't necessarily unplayable per se; you just need to have a good idea of their major flaws, and workable ways around them.

[MountainKing]

I too don't know many people who play, so I play primarily on MTGO as well. As for the free card bots, there are a few (the most notable one is MTGOTradersFreeBot, I think) who let you take a certain number of common cards for free each month.

I can help you get started on MTGO if you'd like. My username is Parallaxal.

If you haven't signed up yet, I'd like to point out what's going on after August 5th. According to the new player account changes (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1224880) that was just announced, if you sign up after August 5th you'll get 150 free basic lands and 150 free M2010 common and uncommon cards, arranged into 5 pre-built decks, plus one free M2010 booster pack and 2 free event tickets, all for the same price a regular account costs. You will not, however, get the $9.99 store credit that you would have gotten if you signed up before August 5th. I'm not sure which you'd rather prefer; the M2010 cards are probably worth a fair bit if you get them early, since even commons like Lightning Bolt will be pricy due to lower supply in MTGO right now. Just something to consider.



How about Cauldron Haze (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=151060) as a 2-mana, instant speed, one-sided Wrath of God that will still be in Extended post-rotation and can be played in a mono-black deck with Horobi? Sure is less awkward than Shrewd Hatchling.

Deathbringer Thoctar (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=180622) is another good, if more mana-intensive, choice.

On another note, my official personal nickname for my favorite card, Twilight Shepherd (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=197034), is now Frederica Bernkastel. Kudos to anyone who gets the reference.

...You know, not only have you likely just now gotten me interested in MTGO, but you've also once again impressed me with just how *evil* you can be. I approve. :smallbiggrin:

[Bucky]

With regards to victory condition cards, I like them a lot from a purely mechanical perspective. And the recent examples all have decent flavor, if you interpret 'win the game' as 'attain ultimate power and laugh at your puny opponents'.

For Mayael's Aria, "Win the game" is the logical next step from "have a giant beast in play while you're gaining 10 life per turn". For Helix Pinnacle, you have a giant structure that stores mind-boggling quantities of mana; when it finally releases it all in one burst, what do you think should happen? Same with Darksteel Reactor, only with a different form of energy.


With regards to deckbuilding advice, I will emphasize Mirrinus' point 5. Figure out a strategy for your deck, then build around that strategy.

[Optimystik]

Well, since Planeswalkers used to be indestructible beings (at least when most of those cards were created. The only one for which that is not true is Helix Pinnacle), I believe that early on, games of Magic were merely contests of skill between Planeswalkers When you played these cards, you changed your goal in the contest. When you transform the contest into a Battle of Wits, your goal becomes to prove that you are, in fact, the mage of greater wits while your opponent tries to stop you.

That's my two cents.

Well, Barren Glory and Mayael's Aria also postdate the planeswalker change.

And the problem with your theory is that old planeswalkers were not indestructible; they were a deal more durable than modern ones, but could be killed. (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/40.html) Even non-planeswalkers could do it (the most famous example being Yawgmoth himself.) The duels of old were just as earnest as the duels of today; moreso, because the loser wasn't just banished or humiliated. Jace and Chandra can duel all day long in today's continuity and leave to pick it up again tomorrow; just try that with Tevash Szat or Leshrac.


Helix what? Wait, let me look...huh.

"Ha! While you have summoned armies of followers, I have built a really high pillar out of pure mana! Look at the colors! And it glows in the dark! Don't you feel stupid now, trying to win a duel with violence?"

Helix Pinnacle also does make a kind of sense. Looking around the pillar, it's apparently being cultivated by elves; I see the magic they are working on as being strong enough to reverse the Aurora and undo Shadowmoor's transformation. They don't even have to know specifically what happened (since only a handful of beings retained their memories), just that building the pillar of mana to a certain height will make the world beautiful. Thus, they win by utterly changing the battlefield. It doesn't make quite as much sense outside of Shadowmoor... but then, neither does the Aria.

[arguskos]

Well, Barren Glory and Mayael's Aria also postdate the planeswalker change.

And the problem with your theory is that old planeswalkers were not indestructible; they were a deal more durable than modern ones, but could be killed. (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/40.html) Even non-planeswalkers could do it (the most famous example being Yawgmoth himself.) The duels of old were just as earnest as the duels of today; moreso, because the loser wasn't just banished or humiliated. Jace and Chandra can duel all day long in today's continuity and leave to pick it up again tomorrow; just try that with Tevash Szat or Leshrac.
Glory is basically at the same time as the walker shift, by all technicality. Notably, there is precedent for a walker sacrificing himself to forever protect one location. It was either Bo Levar or Commodore Guff who did it, sometime during the end of the Phyrexian War.

Also, Yawgmoth's power exceeded even the old, god-like, planeswalkers. Yes, he wasn't a walker himself, but he was on the same power scale. Hardly a fair comparison. :smalltongue:

As another note, name one planeswalker Yawgmoth has been confirmed to have personally defeated (not doubting he could, just that we have confirmation of the action). Urza doesn't count, because the perfect warrior, Gerrard, was the one to actually kill him and that was partially by Urza's own design (since Urza is very much a Xanatos-figure, who killed Yawgy in his own death).

[tgva8889]

Well, Barren Glory and Mayael's Aria also postdate the planeswalker change.

And the problem with your theory is that old planeswalkers were not indestructible; they were a deal more durable than modern ones, but could be killed. (http://magiccards.info/ps/en/40.html) Even non-planeswalkers could do it (the most famous example being Yawgmoth himself.) The duels of old were just as earnest as the duels of today; moreso, because the loser wasn't just banished or humiliated. Jace and Chandra can duel all day long in today's continuity and leave to pick it up again tomorrow; just try that with Tevash Szat or Leshrac.

Just the Aria, actually. Technically, it was not until the end of Future Sight that Planeswalkers ceased to be all-powerful. I'll be honest, I did forget about the Aria.

Yawgmoth's a God, he's allowed to kill Planeswalkers. Planewalkers are not gods. Gods > Planeswalkers, because Planeswalkers originated from mortal beings, while Gods did not.

But fine, Planeswalkers in old continuity were near indestructible. They could not be killed by creatures, which is what happens in games of Magic and therefore, most Planeswalkers probably do not "die" in a game of Magic. I still would say that most of the effects, in terms of flavor, were merely different ways a Planeswalker might perceive himself as a "winner" of some sort of magical contest. If he had collected, say, two hundred or more spells in his memory, by flaunting it he could simply "win" in his own mind, therefore winning the contest. If he had caused the deaths of 20 creatures, he could declare himself a victor and move on with his life, whether his opponent believed so or otherwise.

Of course, believing Wizards cared for a moment about flavor when designing most of the "alternate win conditions" is pretty worthless anyways. Only two of the true alternate wins really have any flavor thought in them, and they're really "alternate loses". The others lack real game flavor and are more just interesting.

[Mystic Muse]

okay I have a question. I use a few cards that could be considered cheap in my deck. for example.
platinum angel
wrath of god
Akroma angel of Wrath (or death as I call her)
Chandra Nalaar
and darksteel forge.
sleep

my brother keeps complaining that "you only win because of akroma!" however I don't think my deck could do anything against his deck without her. here's what he has.
cards that get +1/+1 every time a creature goes to the grave.
cards that have "tap deal one damage to target creature or player" and he has about four of them so all but my strongest creatures die.
amayel's aria
3 pthisis's
several cards that destroy non-black non-artifact creatures (of which I have almost none of. no black creatures at all. just a few artifacts)
and several big guys I can't destroy because most of mine are already dead.

am I in the wrong here?

[Johnny Blade]

Well, Platinum Angel is cheap. Not all that powerful, but still cheap.

Apart from that, your brother should deal with it and learn how to counter the cards you listed.
He plays at least 4 colors anyway, so that should be easy enough.



Thus, they win by utterly changing the battlefield. It doesn't make quite as much sense outside of Shadowmoor... but then, neither does the Aria.
It also doesn't make much sense in a planeswalker duel. Unless we assume that it takes place in Shadowmoor and the Elves hunt down your opponent out of gratitude.



Yawgmoth's a God, he's allowed to kill Planeswalkers. Planewalkers are not gods. Gods > Planeswalkers, because Planeswalkers originated from mortal beings, while Gods did not.
Yawgmoth was a human once. Or something like that, I don't know exactly how "human" the Thran were.

[tgva8889]

Yawgmoth was a human once. Or something like that, I don't know exactly how "human" the Thran were.

God is still greater than Planeswalker. There's a reason it took a Legacy to "destroy" Yawgmoth.

[Johnny Blade]

I was just saying that he was mortal at some point. Everything else is way beyond my knowledge.

[expirement10K14]

New Deck Attempt. Cards with * next to them are placeholders for when I get more cards I need more of, a ~ means I want more of that card. Deck is T2 made for FNM, where the metagame is very, very messed up. Decks range from a giant deck that doesn't get out a giant 50% of the time to decks that usually win in turn 4-5.


Land
6 x Mountain
6 x Swamp
7 x Forest
2 x Terramorphic Expanse (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/229.html)
1 x Dragonskull Summit (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/223.html)
1 x Savage Lands (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/228.html) ~

Mana Acceleration
2 x Rampant Growth (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/201.html)

Token/Creature Generation
1 x Jund Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/106.html)
1 x Dragon Broodmother (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/53.html) ~
2 x Sprouting Thrinax (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/197.html)
1 x Ant Queen (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/166.html)
1 x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html) ~

Devour Creatures
1 x Predator Dragon (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/109.html) ~
Dragon Tokens

Removal
2 x Royal Assassin (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/174.html)
1 x Doom blade (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/93.html) ~
1 x Chandra Nalaar (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/132.html)


Pingers (To use w/ Gorgon Flail)
2 x Prodigal Pyromancer (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/151.html)*
1 x Blood Cultist (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/157.html)*

Other Creatures
3 x Raging Goblin (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/224.html)*
2 x Drudge Skeletons (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/139.html)
3 x Dread Warlock (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/94.html)*
1 x Great Sable Stag (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/186.html) ~
2 x Deadly Recluse (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/175.html)
2 x Giant Spider (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/185.html)
2 x Centaur Courser (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/172.html)
1 x Vigor (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/240.html) ~

Other Spells
1 x Diabolic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/91.html) ~
1 x Giant Growth (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/184.html)*
1 x Overrun (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/198.html) ~
2 x Fireball (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/136.html)
1 x Gorgon Flail (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/211.html)*
1 x Whispersilk Cloak (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/221.html)~


Anyone have comments or suggestions?
One thing I was thinking about is replacing basic land with jund panorama's, but then I will have VERY little basic land. Any more savage/dual lands I get will replace basics.

Edit: Took out 2 Forest, a Swamp and a Mountain for 4 jund panoramas.

[tgva8889]

I was just saying that he was mortal at some point. Everything else is way beyond my knowledge.

Eh, sorry if I sounded a bit annoyed or something there. I do that a lot...

Though I find it amusing how little "logic" plays in Magic. For example, all the cards that make up the Legacy are different cards that don't work together. They're also one card called Legacy Weapon. Imagine that.

[MountainKing]

This deck is all over the place; what exactly is your win condition supposed to be?

[Bucky]

okay I have a question. I use a few cards that could be considered cheap in my deck. for example.
platinum angel
wrath of god
Akroma angel of Wrath (or death as I call her)
Chandra Nalaar
and darksteel forge.
sleep

my brother keeps complaining that "you only win because of akroma!" however I don't think my deck could do anything against his deck without her. here's what he has.
cards that get +1/+1 every time a creature goes to the grave.
cards that have "tap deal one damage to target creature or player" and he has about four of them so all but my strongest creatures die.
amayel's aria
3 pthisis's
several cards that destroy non-black non-artifact creatures (of which I have almost none of. no black creatures at all. just a few artifacts)
and several big guys I can't destroy because most of mine are already dead.

am I in the wrong here?

If a deck can't beat Platinum Angel, it's not a very good deck. If he fears Akroma because it has protection from his Black kill spells, and he's playing four color, you should remind him that white has creature kill too. (Oblivion Ring/Condemn/Path to Exile)

And if he thinks Akroma is bad, try to find some Calciderm (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122360)s


Deck is T2 made for FNM, where the metagame is very, very messed up. Decks range from a giant deck that doesn't get out a giant 50% of the time to decks that usually win in turn 4-5.


Land
6 x Mountain
6 x Swamp
7 x Forest
2 x Terramorphic Expanse (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/229.html)
1 x Dragonskull Summit (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/223.html)
1 x Savage Lands (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/228.html) ~

Mana Acceleration
2 x Rampant Growth (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/201.html)

Token/Creature Generation
1 x Jund Battlemage (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/106.html)
1 x Dragon Broodmother (http://magiccards.info/arb/en/53.html) ~
2 x Sprouting Thrinax (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/197.html)
1 x Ant Queen (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/166.html)
1 x Liliana Vess (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/121.html) ~

Devour Creatures
1 x Predator Dragon (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/109.html) ~
Dragon Tokens

Removal
2 x Royal Assassin (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/174.html)
1 x Doom blade (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/93.html) ~
1 x Chandra Nalaar (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/132.html)


Pingers (To use w/ Gorgon Flail)
2 x Prodigal Pyromancer (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/151.html)*
1 x Blood Cultist (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/157.html)*

Other Creatures
3 x Raging Goblin (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/224.html)*
2 x Drudge Skeletons (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/139.html)
3 x Dread Warlock (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/94.html)*
1 x Great Sable Stag (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/186.html) ~
2 x Deadly Recluse (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/175.html)
2 x Giant Spider (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/185.html)
2 x Centaur Courser (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/172.html)
1 x Vigor (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/240.html) ~

Other Spells
1 x Diabolic Tutor (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/91.html) ~
1 x Giant Growth (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/184.html)*
1 x Overrun (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/198.html) ~
2 x Fireball (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/136.html)
1 x Gorgon Flail (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/211.html)*
1 x Whispersilk Cloak (http://magiccards.info/m10/en/221.html)~


Anyone have comments or suggestions?

What are the decks that win on turn 4-5, and what is your plan for dealing with them?

[expirement10K14]

This deck is all over the place; what exactly is your win condition supposed to be?

Get out creatures/tokens to block until I get out a devour creature and swing.
Vigor and Overrun are alt-wins, as vigor makes my creatures immune to damage and overrun, well it's overrun. It did better than you might think at my last FNM (3-3, and that was an older, much worse version than the one I posted.

Edit: I am intrigued by the synergy with
Barren Glory (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/3.html), Kaervek's Spite (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/13.html) and Academy Rector. (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/1.html)

[Johnny Blade]

Well, first off, you shouldn't play those pingers. You only have 1 Gorgon Flail, and even with flail and pinger out, you're just asking for removal.



Then, your deck, especially your creature base, is a little conflicted, as MountainKing already said. You have aggressive beaters like Raging Goblin and Dread Warlock, and then you also play Drudge Skeletons and Deadly Recluses. Those pull your deck into different directions and should be one of the first things to change.
Personally, I think you'd be best off going for either a straight beatdown route, or for accelerating into some huge (devouring) creature asap.
For both strategies, however, I recommend taking a look at Kitchen Finks. If you can get them for an acceptable price, that is.
Holding out with your blockers is usually a strategy that decks such as yours can't afford - it works when you're the deck with better control options and huge expensive creatures to play later, but it usually backfires when you're not. And you often won't be.



Eh, sorry if I sounded a bit annoyed or something there. I do that a lot...
Nah, no offense taken.


Though I find it amusing how little "logic" plays in Magic. For example, all the cards that make up the Legacy are different cards that don't work together. They're also one card called Legacy Weapon. Imagine that.
Well, I always assumed they had just merged somehow. Of course, it's still weird to have it as a single card anyway.

[expirement10K14]

Well, first off, you shouldn't play those pingers. You only have 1 Gorgon Flail, and even with flail and pinger out, you're just asking for removal.

Then, your deck, especially your creature base, is a little conflicted, as MountainKing already said. You have aggressive beaters like Raging Goblin and Dread Warlock, and then you also play Drudge Skeletons and Deadly Recluses. Those pull your deck into different directions and should be one of the first things to change.
Personally, I think you'd be best off going for either a straight beatdown route, or for accelerating into some huge (devouring) creature asap.
For both strategies, however, I recommend taking a look at Kitchen Finks. If you can get them for an acceptable price, that is.
Holding out with your blockers is usually a strategy that decks such as yours can't afford - it works when you're the deck with better control options and huge expensive creatures to play later, but it usually backfires when you're not. And you often won't be.

I rebuilt into R/G, but the advice still holds. The spiders were there because of a lack of ability to block fliers, but now the dragons fix that. Kitchen Finks also would work great. Thanks :smallsmile:

Anyway... Now I am building a proxy deck around Barren glory, but I have very specific restrictions laid out on what we are allowed to proxy. I expect playing these decks will be fun, as long as no one uses protean hulk...

[The Extinguisher]

Anyway... Now I am building a proxy deck around Barren glory, but I have very specific restrictions laid out on what we are allowed to proxy. I expect playing these decks will be fun, as long as no one uses protean hulk...

Dimensional Breech. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43573)

Just a warning, people hate alt wins. Especially if you play big multiplayer games. Something about the game not narrowing down as time goes on. Which is why their okay with mill and door to nothingness.

But if you wipe out everyone in one move, people hate it.

[expirement10K14]

Dimensional Breech. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43573)

Just a warning, people hate alt wins. Especially if you play big multiplayer games. Something about the game not narrowing down as time goes on. Which is why their okay with mill and door to nothingness.

But if you wipe out everyone in one move, people hate it.

Barren Glory (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/3.html), Kaervek's Spite (http://magiccards.info/vi/en/13.html) and Academy Rector. (http://magiccards.info/ud/en/1.html)

I just need to get them all out.

We are going to be playing swiss with, I believe, 8 people then an 8 person multiplayer. Black lotus and dark ritual are not allowed, so I can't go off turn 1.

[mikeejimbo]

OK, I'd like to share one of my decks as it is now. I don't have a cute name for it, sorry.


Lands
11 Island
9 Swamp
3 Rupture Spire

Creatures
4 Parasitic Strix
3 Tidehollow Strix
2 Glaze Fiend
2 Sharding Sphinx
2 Faerie Mechanist
2 Salvage Slasher
2 Esperzoa

Non-creature Artifacts
4 Courier's Capsule
3 Executioner's Capsule
2 Armillary Sphere
2 Kraken's Eye
2 Mask of Riddles
2 Thopter Foundry

Other spells
4 Countersquall
4 Soul Manipulation
3 Agony Warp

[The Extinguisher]

I'm stuck in a deck building rut.

I can't seem to come up with a good deck idea, and when I do, I can never seem to build it.

What do you guys do to get out of this?

[Bucky]

I'm stuck in a deck building rut.

I can't seem to come up with a good deck idea, and when I do, I can never seem to build it.

What do you guys do to get out of this?

Play a round or two of Limited

[tgva8889]

Dimensional Breech. (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=43573)

Just a warning, people hate alt wins. Especially if you play big multiplayer games. Something about the game not narrowing down as time goes on. Which is why their okay with mill and door to nothingness.

But if you wipe out everyone in one move, people hate it.

I'm perfectly fine losing in one grand stroke, just as long as that grand stroke is creative or hilarious or something. You've never truly lost until you've been hit with Fireblast after your opponent played Hostility. Tom LaPille did that to me. It hurt a lot.

Of course, if you're going to make me lose over the course of one turn by doing the same thing over and over and drawing your deck in one card increments or something equally silly, then I hate you.

(Which reminds me, I really want to make my mono-blue EDH deck so that it can perfectly stop any combo players from doing what they want, but otherwise it doesn't really do a whole lot.)

[arguskos]

Of course, if you're going to make me lose over the course of one turn by doing the same thing over and over and drawing your deck in one card increments or something equally silly, then I hate you.
Oh, so like how I lost today to Cloudstone Curio+Cloud of Faeries? Or to a Death Cloud+someone else hitting me with a Jitte+Chameleon Colossus when I had no cards in hand and nothing on the board?

Both were great and amusing losses, no doubt about it. /sarcasm

At least my Thraximundar deck was good fun. Still died, but I did horrible things with it... until someone Brion Stoutarm'ed a Serra Avatar into my face. Yay, stupid kill is stupid. :smallannoyed:

[tgva8889]

Oh, so like how I lost today to Cloudstone Curio+Cloud of Faeries? Or to a Death Cloud+someone else hitting me with a Jitte+Chameleon Colossus when I had no cards in hand and nothing on the board?

Both were great and amusing losses, no doubt about it. /sarcasm

At least my Thraximundar deck was good fun. Still died, but I did horrible things with it... until someone Brion Stoutarm'ed a Serra Avatar into my face. Yay, stupid kill is stupid. :smallannoyed:

And this is why we play instant-speed removal in EDH...

But seriously, I can enjoy a game of Magic in which I don't win, just so long as I do something. For example, I totally did not win the game in which I played Molten Disaster for 19 with Kicker. Was it awesome? Heck yes.

But yeah, tough break there. Though you are playing BUR, so maybe you need some more instant-speed removal options? Or at least some counters?

[Johnny Blade]

I'm stuck in a deck building rut.

I can't seem to come up with a good deck idea, and when I do, I can never seem to build it.

What do you guys do to get out of this?
Netdeck. :smallcool:
(Actually, I usually have the opposite problem. 10 decklists flying around and money for 10 cards.)


Oh, so like how I lost today to Cloudstone Curio+Cloud of Faeries?
I don't get it. Or rather, that needs 2 other cards unless I'm really missing a lot here.

Also, it's weird to read about a Serra Avatar actually hitting the table.


And this is why we play instant-speed removal in EDH...
And Denying Wind (http://magiccards.info/pr/en/32.html).
Funny story: I once used that one on Teysa's Painter's Servant, only to skim right past Darkest Hour (http://magiccards.info/7e/en/128.html). On which I later had to waste a Spelljack (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/51.html). Yeah, that felt great. But still, no more silly combo.

[tgva8889]

And Denying Wind (http://magiccards.info/pr/en/32.html).
Funny story: I once used that one on Teysa's Painter's Servant, only to skim right past Darkest Hour (http://magiccards.info/7e/en/128.html). On which I later had to waste a Spelljack (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/51.html). Yeah, that felt great. But still, no more silly combo.

Must find copy for mono-blue deck.

[arguskos]

I don't get it. Or rather, that needs 2 other cards unless I'm really missing a lot here.

Also, it's weird to read about a Serra Avatar actually hitting the table.
Brain Freeze. You just bounce the Faeries with itself over and over, then Brain Freeze for the kill. >_<

Serra Avatar is a beast. That thing kills everytime it hits the table.

[Johnny Blade]

You might want to have a word with whoever played that deck, because that's not how Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) works - it bounces another permanent. :smallwink:

So it works well enough with another creatures of the cycle, but, well, that's a 4 card combo.

[tgva8889]

It's not that weird to see Serra Avatar hit the table in an EDH games. Most EDH decks aren't designed to always kill everyone at the table by turn 7.

Edit: Damn it, need to learn how to sound less condescending...

[arguskos]

You might want to have a word with whoever played that deck, because that's not how Cloudstone Curio (http://magiccards.info/rav/en/257.html) works - it bounces another permanent. :smallwink:

So it works well enough with another creatures of the cycle, but, well, that's a 4 card combo.
DAMMIT ALL!!!!! I've lost to that like 4 times now! ARGH DAMMIT!! :furious::furious::furious:

That is SOOO damned annoying, since I hate that frikkin' deck so damn much. *sigh*

[mikeejimbo]

GODDAMMIT ALL!!!!! I've lost to that like 4 times now! ARGH GOD DAMMIT!! :furious::furious::furious:

That is SOOO damned annoying, since I hate that frikkin' deck so damn much. *sigh*

Wouldn't it still work if you had two copies of the Cloud of Faeries?

You play one Cloud of Faeries, then you play the other and return the first, untapping two lands, thus letting you play the other, returning the other one, etc...

Unless by "another" they mean "a permanent with a different name", but I don't think that's the case.

[arguskos]

Wouldn't it still work if you had two copies of the Cloud of Faeries?

You play one Cloud of Faeries, then you play the other and return the first, untapping two lands, thus letting you play the other, returning the other one, etc...

Unless by "another" they mean "a permanent with a different name", but I don't think that's the case.
Of course, but not in EDH, where you can only have one copy of any card.

[Johnny Blade]

Well, at least it probably won't happen again...:smallwink:


It's not that weird to see Serra Avatar hit the table in an EDH games. Most EDH decks aren't designed to always kill everyone at the table by turn 7.
Well, it's still a high priority target. Especially when there's Brion Stoutarm around.
But even so, it usually gets countered in my group. People just can't let it come out, it's too dangerous. Even if it's "only" insanely huge.
And even if it resolves, I'd rather waste a sweeper than let that thing stay alive.

[arguskos]

Well, at least it probably won't happen again...:smallwink:


Well, it's still a high priority target. Especially when there's Brion Stoutarm around.
But even so, it usually gets countered in my group. People just can't let it come out, it's too dangerous. Even if it's "only" insanely huge.
And even if it resolves, I'd rather waste a sweeper than let that thing stay alive.
It happened the turn he played it. :smallsigh:

[Johnny Blade]

Yeah, but I really wonder how. Of course, in my group, we have at least 2 blue decks per game, and they both also have at least White for some removal.
(One is Sharuum, the other is Arcades Sabboth.)
So stuff like that usually gets countered. Or killed. And then removed from the game.

[tgva8889]

Yeah, it does sort of depend on the group you play with.

I really need to find a place where there is a regular EDH group, because I want to play it more regularly. I like the format a lot, I just never get to use the decks I have.

[arguskos]

Our group is much more heavily green and black focused. We don't have much red or much instant-speed removal, really. Countermagic is also nearly non-existent, thanks to a dearth of blue.

[mikeejimbo]

Of course, but not in EDH, where you can only have one copy of any card.

Ah right, I missed that this was EDH.

[Johnny Blade]

Countermagic is also nearly non-existent, thanks to a dearth of blue.
Yeah, I almost thought so considering your earlier comments.
Well, at least that means you are in a good position to control how the game goes, playing UBR.

[arguskos]

Yeah, I almost thought so considering your earlier comments.
Well, at least that means you are in a good position to control how the game goes, playing UBR.
Oh, I did, but mostly through board control. I run TONS of sacrifice effects to abuse with Thraxi, and that really did bad things with that deck. :smallbiggrin:

I do run between 5-8 counters in my mono-blue deck, along with some recursive ones and some bounce, which is great stuff for control.

[mikeejimbo]

Update on my deck:


Lands
12 Island
12 Swamp

Creatures
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Ornithopter
4 Parasitic Strix
3 Tidehollow Strix
2 Glaze Fiend
2 Sharding Sphinx
2 Faerie Mechanist
2 Salvage Slasher
2 Esperzoa
1 Master Transmuter

Non-creature Artifacts
3 Executioner's Capsule
2 Armillary Sphere
2 Courier's Capsule
2 Time Sieve
2 Mask of Riddles
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Kraken's Eye

Other spells
4 Countersquall
4 Soul Manipulation
3 Agony Warp

[Mirrinus]

Update on my deck:


Lands
12 Island
12 Swamp

Creatures
4 Etherium Sculptor
4 Ornithopter
4 Parasitic Strix
3 Tidehollow Strix
2 Glaze Fiend
2 Sharding Sphinx
2 Faerie Mechanist
2 Salvage Slasher
2 Esperzoa
1 Master Transmuter

Non-creature Artifacts
3 Executioner's Capsule
2 Armillary Sphere
2 Courier's Capsule
2 Time Sieve
2 Mask of Riddles
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Kraken's Eye

Other spells
4 Countersquall
4 Soul Manipulation
3 Agony Warp


I count 76 or so cards, with just 24 lands. That's a pretty bad ratio, especially since 24 lands is average for a 60 card deck. Let's drop a few spells, shall we?

First off, I'd drop Kraken's Eye. It's just a bad card; pure lifegain is usually not worth a card, unless you're playing against red burn decks (but you'd probably rather run Dragon's Claw in those matchups).

I'd also drop Armillary Sphere, since your land distribution is reasonably decent already, and you'd rather spend turns 2 and 3 playing creature threats. Instead, I'd run 4x Mistvein Borderpost instead of 4 lands, because you don't have a turn 1 play anyway, so a comes-into-play tapped land that gives you both your colors and counts as an artifact would be perfect for you.

Your deck is not built to abuse Time Sieve, so I'd considering removing it. If you're dead-set on running it, there'se no reason why you aren't playing the Borderpost to up your land count. But in all honesty, I don't think your deck has enough artifacts or recursion to run it well.

Ornithopter does nothing for your deck. You're not playing affinity, you don't have good ways of pumping its power, and a 0/2 wall that sometimes boosts Glaze Fiend is not worth the cost of a card. Drop it.

Salvage Slasher can have high power, but lacks evasion and is really fragile. You don't have many ways of giving him evasion. Drop him.

That's 11 cards so far...I haven't decided what else to drop, but I'll be back when I have more time. Till then, what are the cards that just aren't performing as well as you'd like?

[Johnny Blade]

I'd definitely drop Esperzoa. Even in a deck with lots of CIP abilities, it's just too risky.



Oh, I did, but mostly through board control. I run TONS of sacrifice effects to abuse with Thraxi, and that really did bad things with that deck. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, that's why Sek'kuar is still my favorite deck. :smallamused:
That makes me wonder, though, how do you get your tokens?


I do run between 5-8 counters in my mono-blue deck, along with some recursive ones and some bounce, which is great stuff for control.
Hm, I usually run at least 6 in every deck that can. Usually more, but that depends on who is actually coming to play.


Also, I actually managed to win two EDH games in a row today, once with Intet, once with Treva. I'm sure that I'll get butchered the next time we play, but it was worth it. :smallbiggrin:
Pretty funny to have your Eye of the Storm removed from the game the turn you play it only to go off with Azusa (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/201.html), Crucible (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/319.html) and Walk the Aeons (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/93.html).
That was against Teysa, Sharuum and Stonebrow, by the way.
The second game, against Nath, Jenara and Stonebrow (again), was pretty much decided in my favor when Nath created the generous amount of 60 tokens, all of which ended up as 3/3, Stonebrow played Inferno (http://magiccards.info/4e/en/223.html) in his turn, and I responded by Hallowing (http://magiccards.info/ds/en/4.html) it (before playing Akroma's Vengeance in my turn). I later won when nobody could stop my 11/11 Draining Whelk (equipped with Sword of Light and Shadow). I had a lot of luck in that game, though. Right now, Treva is missing a way to actually win besides playing a huge creature and hoping it gets through.

[MountainKing]

...shwah? You're in color for lots of powerful attack options, including Garruk/Overrun, with Treva... Are you too focused on the control/lifegain aspect?

[Johnny Blade]

Well, I will cut some of the lifegain cards, but what the deck mainly lacks are good combos that have an immediate effect. I do have a few good creatures that can definitely decide the game, but so does everyone else. (Of course, not everyone has White's great recursion.)
I should probably look for more first strike and especially unblockable creatures.

Or more token producers. Martial Coup and especially Storm Herd are great, but I can't guarantee that I can actually play them each game, especially since I usually need my tutors for other things.

[MountainKing]

Please say you're running Cradle of Vitality in a deck with Treva as the general... because that would be awesome.