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View Full Version : Attacking Will Saves w/o Magic [3.5]



blackseven
2009-07-27, 05:12 PM
I'm not sure if this goes better under homebrew, but I was hoping to get some ideas on creating ways to attack Will Saves without using magic, hopefully in item form. I'm looking for something that can be used in combat to penalize or disable a target for just a couple rounds (1d4 like), nothing too fancy.

I know there are a limited amount of class abilities and use of Intimidate checks, but other than those, I'm not coming up with too many more mundane options. If there's anything printed that I could use as a precedent, I'd love to be pointed to it.

My main idea was to use Alchemical products and homebrew something with my GM, but I was worried about tieing mind-affecting chemicals to Will Saves. Would people on the boards in general accept the idea that maybe some chemicals are less about being resisted physically and more about simply gritting through the disabling effects by Will power? Or should all chemical effects be resisted by Fort?

Signmaker
2009-07-27, 05:14 PM
With sufficient wind speed, drawing a Pandemonic Silver weapon induces a Will save on any person within 30 feet vs cowering? Complete Adventurer, and be warned that this does include potential party members.

arkol
2009-07-27, 05:17 PM
There's ways to cause fear or fear-like effects without spells...

Sucrose
2009-07-27, 05:19 PM
I'm not sure if this goes better under homebrew, but I was hoping to get some ideas on creating ways to attack Will Saves without using magic, hopefully in item form. I'm looking for something that can be used in combat to penalize or disable a target for just a couple rounds (1d4 like), nothing too fancy.

I know there are a limited amount of class abilities and use of Intimidate checks, but other than those, I'm not coming up with too many more mundane options. If there's anything printed that I could use as a precedent, I'd love to be pointed to it.

My main idea was to use Alchemical products and homebrew something with my GM, but I was worried about tieing mind-affecting chemicals to Will Saves. Would people on the boards in general accept the idea that maybe some chemicals are less about being resisted physically and more about simply gritting through the disabling effects by Will power? Or should all chemical effects be resisted by Fort?
There's precedent for a physical attack to require a Will save to recover from, in the Tome of Battle. Diamond Mind maneuvers like Mind Strike and Disrupting Blow recover a Will save to resist the secondary effect.

As for items, I agree that some drugs would require a Will save; I'd recommend hallucinogens.

Animefunkmaster
2009-07-27, 05:29 PM
One of the more cost effective weapon enhancements, stunning from dmg2, is just dandy and requires a target to make a will save. Granted any physical attack is still an attack roll going against some kind of AC.

Zeful
2009-07-27, 05:31 PM
The Dislocater and Greater Dislocator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#dislocator) force will saves against teleportation/planar travel.

blackseven
2009-07-27, 05:47 PM
There's precedent for a physical attack to require a Will save to recover from, in the Tome of Battle. Diamond Mind maneuvers like Mind Strike and Disrupting Blow recover a Will save to resist the secondary effect.

As for items, I agree that some drugs would require a Will save; I'd recommend hallucinogens.

Thank you for the ToB reference, I checked out the maneuvers and those seem like a good place to start on items that might duplicate their effects.

I just looked over the Poison rules and the SRD poisons specify Fort saves only, including for things like Insanity Mist... so that is one strike against me.

I appreciate the other responses about weapon enchants, but the problem is that this is an extremely low magic campaign. To make up for the lack of magic, the DM allows more "extraordinary" items, including really expanded Alchemy. My major concern was getting other people's feelings on the "realism" (verisimilitude) of a chemical forcing a Will save as opposed to a Fort save.

Talic
2009-07-27, 06:26 PM
I can see it.

Terror Dust

Poison, Inhaled, DC 22

The save against Terror Dust is Initial Will, secondary Fort.
Initial damage: Panicked 1 minute
Secondary damage: 1d4 Wisdom damage

Eldariel
2009-07-27, 06:31 PM
Poisons should work. Making ones that require mental fortitude shouldn't be hard and indeed, rewriting the ones that directly impact the mind as Will-saves should be pretty much natural (sure, it's a poison but since it affects your brains and sensory abilities and such rather than your body, making it a Will-save sorta makes sense). There are a few in Drow of the Underdark and Complete Scoundrel although they are Fort as written, that make perfect sense as Will-saves.

Other than that, yeah, fear/morale-type things and epic Bluff-checks (it mimics Suggestion). Some Bardic Music-effects aren't implausible either (when a mob is forming and you're in it, not getting caught in the whole outburst of emotion requires conscious effort, after all) and many creatures naturally have such abilities (Nymphs, Succubi, Gibbering Mouther, overall a ton of Fey, Aberrations and Outsiders).