Names, clues, conventions and flouting them

[veti]

So there's this long thread, approximately the 846th to discuss Vaarsuvius's gender, containing much heated and frankly unenlightening debate about whether V's name is a clue. I thought it might help if we considered the subject of names in the Stickverse as a whole.

Now: I'm not counting kobolds, because they self-evidently have their own very distinctive naming convention, or Azurites, because I don't know enough about definitely-not-Japan to say anything sensible about them. (Although am I the only one who thinks O-Chul is a dwarf? It helps explain both his ungodly CON and his un-Japanese name.) I'm also not counting anyone who's obviously intruding from another reality (that includes the lawyers, Larry Gardener, Gary Gygax, and Zz'dtri).

That leaves me with:

Most humans have regular English names: we've seen Roy, Haley, Crystal, Pete, Toby, George, Jenny, Eugene, Julia, Violet, Eric. (Haley spells her name differently from all the Hayleys I've known, but that's within normal variation.)

We've also seen a Julio, Pepe, Elan, Dorukan, Girard. These are all names or words in various European languages. Elan is French for "style, flair, panache". Girard and Pepe are French names, Julio is Spanish, Dorukan Turkish (though I've no idea what, if anything, it means). It seems likely that these characters' names come from other "nations" within the Stickverse - like the Azurites, but not quite so alien to "Common" Human.

Then there's Xykon. His name breaks all the rules so far. It's the kind of name you'd want to get on a triple word score. In other words, an improbable collection of letters, designed more for drama than for use. I call this school of naming "Generic Fantasy Naming Convention" (GFNC for short). It has its own rules, which I'll come back to shortly.

Dwarfs: Durkon, Hilgya, Kraagor. These are interesting because if the Giant wanted to follow the "cultural parallels" theme, there are lots of perfectly good Scots and/or Norse names out there: he could have called them Duncan, Fiona, Malcolm, or Ragnar, Brunhilde, Gunnar. But instead he went with GFNC.

Halflings: Belkar, Hank, Serini. That's one English name and two GFNC.

Barbarians (both human and orc): Gortok, Kuurk, Lokor, Hak-Tonog, Crong, Gok, Mungu, Grukgruk, Verkle. These names favour gutteral consonants, and short and/or deep vowels. Half-Orcs (Thog, Therkla, Bozzok) seem to follow the same pattern. It's a subset of the GFNC. However, even here we note the very deep-rooted convention that female names (Therkla, Mungu) end on an open vowel.

Outsiders: Qarr, Sabine, Celia, Lee, Nero, Cedrik. Interesting combination of regular names and GFNC.

Animals: Mr Scruffy, Rover, Argent, Windstriker, Blackwing, Kitty, Razor. (We could also include Banjo and Giggles here.) These are all basically "pet" names - assigned by people to say something about what they see as the animal's nature. Linguistically, nothing to see here.

And now I can no longer postpone: Elves. Vaarsuvius, Inkyrius, Aardinarius, Lirian, (Pompey).

Pompey is a bona-fide Roman name. Google tells me that Lirian is a real (if rare) name in (possibly) Spanish - and it is, you'll all be excited to hear, ambiguously gendered. The other three all share the "-ius" ending, which would imply they were male if Elvish is like Latin - but other internal clues within the names tell us that Elvish isn't like Latin.

The other way of looking at these names is as another variant of GFNC. In GFNC, a female's name may end with an open vowel (usually "-a", "-i", "-e" or "-y"), occasionally closed by an "-l" or "-n". So "Lirian" is still ambiguous ("Liria", of course, would be definitively female). But "-ius" is definitely male.

Which brings me to the final paradox. Since "-ius" should be a definitively masculine word ending, and the Giant has sworn never to reveal Vaarsuvius's true gender, that leads me inevitably to the conclusion that these endings don't actually tell us anything about the character's gender, even though they appear to. What they do tell is is why people who know Vaarsuvius's name often tend to assume she's male, whereas people who just see "some elf" may go either way.

Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Xykon made up his name. We don't know what name he had as a child.

[The Rose Dragon]

Dorukan Turkish (though I've no idea what, if anything, it means).

To be fair, Turkish is my native language and I don't know what that means. I wasn't even aware it was Turkish.

[Jaltum]

O-Chul is way, way too tall to be a dwarf. His name is pseudoKorean.

EDIT:



Outsiders: Qarr, Sabine, Celia, Lee, Nero, Cedrik. Interesting combination of regular names and GFNC.

Qarr is the only one of those that's a made-up word. (Cedrik is spelled funny, is all.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabine

[veti]

Xykon made up his name. We don't know what name he had as a child.

Really? I wasn't aware of that. Is there a definitive source for it? (I do have SoD, but it's currently packed away somewhere.)

[The Rose Dragon]

Really? I wasn't aware of that. Is there a definitive source for it? (I do have SoD, but it's currently packed away somewhere.)

SoD. He makes it up because it sounds cool.

[Larkspur]

Most of the Azurites have GFNC names too: Lien, Daigo and Kazumi are real names, but O-Chul, Shojo, Hinjo, and Miko aren't; they're either random words or just nonsense.

[Cizak]

Really? I wasn't aware of that. Is there a definitive source for it? (I do have SoD, but it's currently packed away somewhere.)

So you haven't read it yet? You should do that, it's a very good book :smallsmile::smalltongue:

[Jaltum]

Yeah, but they're deliberately Japanese-sounding gibberish/random Japanese words. They sound "Asian," where Dorukon or Xykon just sounds like "Fantasy."

[Skorj]

Which brings me to the final paradox. Since "-ius" should be a definitively masculine word ending, and the Giant has sworn never to reveal Vaarsuvius's true gender, that leads me inevitably to the conclusion that these endings don't actually tell us anything about the character's gender, even though they appear to. What they do tell is is why people who know Vaarsuvius's name often tend to assume she's male, whereas people who just see "some elf" may go either way.

Hope that helps. :smallbiggrin:

I just assumed that the -ius was because Rich pictured V as male before the ambiguous gender gag began (which is officially not a clue as to Vs real gender, sorry).


Xykon made up his name. We don't know what name he had as a child.

I always took that as a reference to Zyxlon B, and I still mess up and type Xyklon half the time. He would think that was cool, after all.

[Arkenputtyknife]

(Although am I the only one who thinks O-Chul is a dwarf? It helps explain both his ungodly CON and his un-Japanese name.)
O-Chul is not an un-Japanese name. It can be rendered in Hiragana thus: おちゅる. (The trailing ‘u’ vowel is traditionally reduced to virtual nonexistence when spoken.) It follows certain medieval naming practices, in which the O- prefix is an honorific (meaning ‘great’ or ‘magnificent’ or whatever). The rest of the name may be an abbreviation for a longer given name.

There's a recent example of this in the anime Magical Project S. The makers wanted to include Ryoko, who in related series was a troublemaker and a bad girl, but for that series they wanted her to be a traditional, honorable warrior—so they converted her name to the traditional, honorable form, O-Ryo. You can find more examples by reading old Japanese literature.

[veti]

So in short... it seems that yes, I am the only one who thinks O-Chul is a dwarf.

But I still think so. :smalltongue: A tall dwarf, true. Possibly a half-dwarf. But still with the CON bonus. And, of course, the beard.

[Arkenputtyknife]

But I still think so. :smalltongue: A tall dwarf, true. Possibly a half-dwarf. But still with the CON bonus. And, of course, the beard.
He's been doing the height exercises. (And a virtual cookie and a tip of the hat to anyone who can correctly identify where that came from.)

[Acero]

We've also seen a Julio, Pepe, Elan, Dorukan, Girard. These are all names or words in various European languages. Elan is French for "style, flair, panache". Girard and Pepe are French names, Julio is Spanish, Dorukan Turkish (though I've no idea what, if anything, it means). It seems likely that these characters' names come from other "nations" within the Stickverse - like the Azurites, but not quite so alien to "Common" Human.


you forgot enrique

[veti]

you forgot enrique

You're quite right. But he fits handily into the "other European language" category, without needing to rework anything.

I listed all the names I could think of or find in a quick sweep, but there's any number I may have left out. Please feel free to add them, particularly if they don't fit any of the conventions I've already covered.

Edit: I also forgot Nale, but he's outside the normal rules because his whole reason for living is to be the anti-Elan.

[Llama231]

He's been doing the height exercises. (And a virtual cookie and a tip of the hat to anyone who can correctly identify where that came from.)

Chuck Norris or This (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/429765)?

Or just that dwarves have beards?

[Puns de León]

Outsiders: Qarr, Sabine, Celia, Lee, Nero, Cedrik. Interesting combination of regular names and GFNC.


Don't forget historical. Nero was an infamous Roman emperor who supposedly set Rome on fire because it struck his fancy and was, in general, one of the (many) bad emperors. The women of the Sabine tribe are also related to Ancient Roman history, as I see Jaltum actually already pointed out: the early Romans kidnapped them in order to populate their budding city, which later led to wars between the two camps. Don't know if there's anything more to Sabine's name choice other than that there's a history of violence behind it.

Lee and Cedrik would therefore presumably be named after a past villain of some sort, though Cedric(k) apparently means 'kindly and loved' and Lee means 'meadow'. The best I can think of as namesakes are Lee Harvey Oswald and Cedric the Entertainer.

Celia is thought to be derived from the Latin for sky or heaven, caelum.

I have nothing on Qarr. Seems a GFNC if I've ever seen one.

Incidentally, I think it's quite clear that Lirian, the character, is a female, but the name could be a 'Sam'.



Edit: I also forgot Nale, but he's outside the normal rules because his whole reason for living is to be the anti-Elan.

While you're on about that, you forgot about Yikyik too. One can only guess at how many hidden truths lie wrapped within a name such as that, especially when we acknowledge the existence of offspring carrying the name of Yokyok! Veritable treasure troves of linguistic significance!

[Blackjackg]

So in short... it seems that yes, I am the only one who thinks O-Chul is a dwarf.

But I still think so. :smalltongue: A tall dwarf, true. Possibly a half-dwarf. But still with the CON bonus. And, of course, the beard.

I've been working on the (crackpot) theory that will Xykon use the power of the Snarl to conquer the world, and from this bleak, post-apocalyptic setting, Durkon and Lien will send their only son back in time to join the Sapphire Guard and prevent this tragedy from happening.

[Herald Alberich]

While you're on about that, you forgot about Yikyik too. One can only guess at how many hidden truths lie wrapped within a name such as that, especially when we acknowledge the existence of offspring carrying the name of Yokyok! Veritable treasure troves of linguistic significance!

Nah, I recognize that you're joking, but the OP specifically excluded the kobolds for, basically, being weird.

[Bibliomancer]

I've been working on the (crackpot) theory that will Xykon use the power of the Snarl to conquer the world, and from this bleak, post-apocalyptic setting, Durkon and Lien will send their only son back in time to join the Sapphire Guard and prevent this tragedy from happening.

Why Lien? Why not Hilga, or for that matter, anyone else?

Apart from that, I see no problem with this plan, provided that there are also floor length leather trenchcoats. They will be quite useful in helping people dodge bullets spells, given that they apparently grant a +1000 bonus on reflex saves.

[Jalor]

O-Chul is actually Japanese. So is Shojo. I'm not sure about Hinjo or Miko.

Also, Lirian has boobs. I'm reasonably sure she's a she.

[Bibliomancer]

O-Chul is actually Japanese. So is Shojo. I'm not sure about Hinjo or Miko.

Also, Lirian has boobs. I'm reasonably sure she's a she.

True, but I've heard other people say that it is stated in SoD that is rather unusual for an elf so that doesn't help us with the others.

[Nimrod's Son]

I listed all the names I could think of or find in a quick sweep, but there's any number I may have left out. Please feel free to add them, particularly if they don't fit any of the conventions I've already covered.

In Start of Darkness there's a halfling called "Tiny" Jim. SoD also shows a few Goblin names: Ridiziak and Eriaxnikol (male), Aliyara and Kayannara (female), possibly others.

Oh, and a Lizardman called "Ekdysdioksosiirwo", for what it's worth.
Xykon kills him for having a name that's too long to remember, causing an as-yet-unnamed goblin to identify himself as "Redcloak". :smallamused:

In the online strip, we've also seen hobgoblins called Jirix, Kodrog, and, er... Jim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html). And there's another in No Cure for the Paladin Blues called Shelby.

But ultimately all this is irrelevant, because there is no such thing as a "clue" to V's gender. It's pretty obvious that Rich intended V to be male originally, but since he decided V's gender was ambiguous (And that is what he decided; he hasn't secretly picked one or the other and started dropping cryptic hints, as some would have you believe), then any naming convention he may or may not have used originally has to be immediately overruled. The introduction of Inkyrius was clearly designed to muddle things even further.

Sorry to disappoint anyone, but this is one question you ain't gonna get an answer to.

[Blackjackg]

Why Lien? Why not Hilga, or for that matter, anyone else?


First, because the offspring of Durkon and Hilgya would be a full-blooded dwarf, which as noted above, O-Chul is pretty visibly not. Second, because Lien is the last female member of the Sapphire Guard, which makes her more likely to send her child to join an order of paladins who history recalls were wiped out (because, of course, in this alternate future, O-Chul wasn't there to survive the blast, so all the paladins but except Miko and Hinjo were killed). Third, because she totally has a crush on him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html) already.

EDIT: Oh, and as someone pointed out when I came up with this theory, it makes sense that O-Chul started his career as a fighter, since Xykon would probably have destroyed the concept of paladinhood (what with the whole 'power of the snarl' thing) in the alternate future.

[Nimrod's Son]

If OotS ever uses a time-travel storyline I think that may be the most disappointed I have ever been.

[Puns de León]

O-Chul is actually Japanese. So is Shojo. I'm not sure about Hinjo or Miko.


Miko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko) definitely has Japanese roots, whether as a proper or commn noun.

Hinjo's name is a direct reference to his direct relationship with Shojo, much like Yokyok's with Yikyik (yeah, I missed that part at the top about the Kobolds, damn).

Also, one part Durkon and one part Lien would logically amount for an O-Chul because the last would inherit the mantle of paladinhood from Lien, and the gratuitous facial hair from Durkon.

Edit: Okay, Ninja'd a good 11 minutes prior.

[Kish]

I always took that as a reference to Zyxlon B, and I still mess up and type Xyklon half the time. He would think that was cool, after all.
I'm inclined to think it's more that his name is Sam or Fred or Tim, or otherwise something very...non-lich-y.

[Blackjackg]

I'm inclined to think it's more that his name is Sam or Fred or Tim, or otherwise something very...non-lich-y.

Richard (http://www.lfgcomic.com/page/3)?

Not enough characters. Here is a haiku about Xykon's name (SoD spoilers):A sad human child
animates his dead pet dog.
He becomes Xykon.

[Puns de León]

It might be a reference by Rich to Zyklon B, but I doubt Xykon himself knew anything about it - knowledge that is exclusive to the real world isn't supposed to cross over into the OOTS world and be known to characters in the OOTS world, unless it forms the basis of a joke.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Chuck Norris or This (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/429765)?

Or just that dwarves have beards?
None of the above.

Your first clue: obscure BBC radio series.


O-Chul is actually Japanese. So is Shojo. I'm not sure about Hinjo or Miko.
Miko is an actual Japanese name. My dictionary of names lists the following possibilities:
見子 child of hope or chance
皇子 child of the emperor
実子 one's own child
美子 beautiful child
弥子 increasing child
御子 child of the emperor (this is also a name for God's son, believe it or not)
神子 shrine maiden (the one everyone thinks of when they hear ‘miko’)

Hinjo isn't listed in any of my dictionaries, but it's certainly Japanese in form.

[Puns de León]

None of the above.

Your first clue: obscure BBC radio series.


I was thinking it might be from The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but nah...
If it is, I'm sad to say I don't recall the context.

[Kish]

Richard?
Only if his parents called him Rick.

[Arkenputtyknife]

I was thinking it might be from The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but nah...
If it is, I'm sad to say I don't recall the context.
Very close. It's a little more recent than the first H2G2 radio broadcasts, though from the same era.

Next clue: Marshall and Lloyd.

[Larkspur]

I stand corrected on Miko, then, but it seems to be more common as a noun than a name. Shojo is also a noun, and it would be a pretty odd name for a boy!

The 'O' in 'O-chul' is valid pseudo Japanese, but what about the 'Chul'? That looks really wrong to me as a name ending.

[Puns de León]

Very close. It's a little more recent than the first H2G2 radio broadcasts, though from the same era.

Next clue: Marshall and Lloyd.


Well, that was a challenge, but there's nothing that can hide from 4 keywords input into Google ("BBC height exercises" alone didn't yield anything too promising, unfortunately). Very nice, I didn't expect a Lord of the Rings parody, though it's completely in line with what this forum is actually supposed to be about.
Do you know of any transcripts available anywhere?

If you're interested in that kind of thing, I'd recommend reading Bored of the Rings, if you haven't already.

[Arkenputtyknife]

I stand corrected on Miko, then, but it seems to be more common as a noun than a name.
Probably true. I have a vague recollection of characters called Miko in a few anime somewhere, but I wouldn't be able to name them. Also, there's the simple matter of confusion. Japanese doesn't use articles like 'a' and 'the', so it's not clear whether the responder is saying “I'm Miko” or “I'm a miko”:

“Who are you?”
“I'm Miko.”
“Yes, I can tell by your outfit, but what's your name?”

There was a joke similar to this in the second episode of the Tenchi Muyo OVA series, but unfortunately the translators completely messed it up, so in the English version it just seems like Tenchi's an idiot, instead of it coming over as a play on words as it originally was intended. What's sad is that unlike most linguistic jokes, it would have worked just fine in English if the translators had been on the ball.


Shojo is also a noun, and it would be a pretty odd name for a boy!
Oh, yes. You can imagine what the playground bullies would make of it.

Oddly enough, with an extended first O (Shōjo) it's listed in my dictionary as a generic name. That seems strange, as generic names (in my admittedly limited experience) are more common for boys than for girls.

Those who don't understand what we're talking about might care to recall or look up an old song called A boy named Sue.


The 'O' in 'O-chul' is valid pseudo Japanese, but what about the 'Chul'? That looks really wrong to me as a name ending.
You have to remember that in Japanese, l = r and that certain trailing vowels can under some circumstances be reduced to oblivion. So O-chul could be derived from O-churu or O-churo. Also, extended vowels often lazily mutate into simple vowels when a name is Westernized (compare Tokyo with its more formally correct form, Tōkyō).

There is in fact a word chūro (note the extended u), so while I can't find any exact hits for O-chul, it's not at all implausible in principle.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Well, that was a challenge, but there's nothing that can hide from 4 keywords input into Google ("BBC height exercises" alone didn't yield anything too promising, unfortunately). Very nice, I didn't expect a Lord of the Rings parody, though it's completely in line with what this forum is actually supposed to be about.
Do you know of any transcripts available anywhere?
Unfortunately, no. I used to have a recording of it, but how many compact cassettes do you know that survived 30 years?

It's very funny, especially if you're British enough to get all the jokes, though in my opinion it's more of a parody of Western mythology generally than of LotR, to which it only bears the very faintest resemblance. It doesn't follow the LotR story at all.

For anyone interested: Hordes of the Things (http://www.nigel-baker.co.uk/hott/). Not to be confused with the unrelated wargames rules or anything else of the same name. The site includes a synopsis but not a transcript.

Puns de León wins one virtual cookie and a tip of the hat. Would you prefer the black hat or the white hat?


If you're interested in that kind of thing, I'd recommend reading Bored of the Rings, if you haven't already.
I read it many years ago. It's more of a direct parody of LotR than HotT is.

[Nimrod's Son]

Those who don't understand what we're talking about might care to recall or look up an old song called A boy named Sue.
Here's the definitive version: Johnny Cash live at San Quentin prison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M89c3hWx3RQ).

[FlawedParadigm]

Based on this thread, and though I will probably never type it out again for length reasons, I've begun to think of Xykon as "Triple-Word Score."

That will be all, thank you.

[Jaltum]

O-Chul is a legitimate Korean name as is, I believe. Korean names are usually two characters together joined by a dash (when transliterated), and O and Chul are both legitimate characters for names in Korean, although I can't find any references to an O-Chul other than the Paladin.

EDIT: O means 5 or fifth in Korean, making it a common start to a name, but only in a large family. And Chul means iron, which is very appropriate. In combination it makes me think of golf, though.

[OITS]

Please learn latin before you throw it around. There is no ending "-ius" for nouns. Of course, it could be, that the word stem ends with an "i" so it would be a masculine ending, BUT:
"-ius" is the ending of a comparative if it is neutral.

[rxmd]

"-ius" is the ending of a comparative if it is neutral.
Which would seem to agree nicely both with their ambiguous gender and the fact that some of them are more full of themselves than others.

[NerfTW]

There's a recent example of this in the anime Magical Project S. The makers wanted to include Ryoko, who in related series was a troublemaker and a bad girl, but for that series they wanted her to be a traditional, honorable warrior—so they converted her name to the traditional, honorable form, O-Ryo. You can find more examples by reading old Japanese literature.

RECENT?

That came out in 1996. (1999 in America)

[Blackjackg]

Please learn latin before you throw it around.

Boy, is that ever a pipe dream. The number of people in this world who actually know Latin is miniscule (that's what makes it a dead language) and the number of people who attempt to use it is immense. Frankly, I think even the attempt to learn some of its basic rules is laudable. After all, some of us didn't major in Classics in college. You know, those of us with jobs. Sorry, cheap shot, I know.

[Arkenputtyknife]

RECENT?

That came out in 1996. (1999 in America)
At my age, anything later than 1980 is 'recent'.

[Puns de León]

Puns de León wins one virtual cookie and a tip of the hat. Would you prefer the black hat or the white hat?


Thank you very much. I'll take the black hat, seeing as we're on to Johnny Cash.



I read it many years ago. It's more of a direct parody of LotR than HotT is.

Oh yes, it makes it quite clear what it's after. Even the prologue and introductory poem pretty much mirrors the original's.



Boy, is that ever a pipe dream. The number of people in this world who actually know Latin is miniscule (that's what makes it a dead language) and the number of people who attempt to use it is immense. Frankly, I think even the attempt to learn some of its basic rules is laudable. After all, some of us didn't major in Classics in college. You know, those of us with jobs. Sorry, cheap shot, I know.


There is even, in fact, an in-comic joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0635.html) on the subject.