[3.5e] Prestige class that improves your stats?

[SinsI]

I'm trying to make a prestige class that solely concentrates on improving one's attributes.

Ideas so far:
"Advancer"


Prereqs: all base attributes must be less than 24, you cannot take more levels in this class if you have a stat of 24.

HD: 1d4
Skill points per level: 1 + Int modifier.

Each level up, you get +1 to all your base attributes, and an additional +1 to 3 different attributes of your choice. If this increases your number of skillpoints allowed from your previous classes - you retroactively gain them(normal attribute improvement every fourth level also counts).

Basic Attack Bonus: Take your minimum base ability modifier - that's your BAB bonus from this PrC (minimum 0, maximum your Advancer level). (i.e. if you have Str 14, Dex 12, Int 14, Con 18, Wis 13, Cha 15, and two levels of Advancer - your minimum ability modifier is from Dex, it is +1 - so you get a BAB 1)

Saves: You can use your Wisdom modifier as your Will save bonus, Constitution modifier as your Fortitude save bonus and Dexterity modifier as your Reflex save bonus (all up to your Advancer Level).


What do you think - is this balanced enough? Is there anything similar in the core/other homebrew classes? Would you be willing to play it?
What class skills do you recommend? Any bonus feats/additional class features?

[RoninFrosty]

I will preface this post with the statement that I'm terrible at determining whether or not something is balanced...but being able to just jack up your stats seems ridiculously overpower for someone like a martial type, especially if you let them keep their attack bonus.

I'm not sure how this would play out with say, a caster (i.e., are the stat boosts worth the loss of caster levels? Are they too powerful?) but I can see this breaking a game for a martial type.

[DracoDei]

Very interesting... How many levels would this have? As many as you can take without bumping into the cap of 24?

It beats Warhulk hands down I think (although that class may have class abilities I am unaware of)... doing retroactive skillpoints could be difficult from a book-keeping POV.

[AstralFire]

You can use your Dex or Str modifier as your BAB (up to your Advancer level).
Saves: You can use your Wisdom modifier as your Will save bonus, Constitution modifier as your Fortitude save bonus and Dexterity modifier as your Reflex save bonus (all up to your Advancer Level).

Egh.

The wording is unclear (do you mean my overall BAB, or my BAB granted from this class? Same for saves.) It's also an awkward mechanic. I would stick to BAB Med and let them pick two good saves. d8 HP.

Regarding balance, something like this will only end up broken. Not overpowered. Not underpowered. Just broken. It pushes stat advancement very high, very quickly, which pushes it towards flash in the pan, one trick pony builds that can only go "THOG HIT IT HARDER" or "I have ultimate arcane power! Let me use my epic stats to DISINTEGRATE YOU REALLY HARD", which is not the way towards orthodox balance in 3.x (giving a small variety of somewhat specialized abilities, making you at least partially effective in all situations, with some situations that you excel at.)

I would design this more like the Paragon racial classes, really.


Very interesting... How many levels would this have? As many as you can take without bumping into the cap of 24?

It beats Warhulk hands down I think (although that class may have class abilities I am unaware of)... doing retroactive skillpoints could be difficult from a book-keeping POV.

Skill points should be retroactive anyway. The book work for even a little bit of multiclassing with skill points is irritating to begin with; them not being retroactive makes rebuilding or building a character at higher level post-Int boost ridiculous. And Warhulk does have class features, though it gains no BAB. But it's intended for use in mass combat, not skirmishes.

[SinsI]

Very interesting... How many levels would this have? As many as you can take without bumping into the cap of 24?
Pretty much.


doing retroactive skillpoints could be difficult from a book-keeping POV.
Nah, it's very easy - every time you get another Int point modifier you add (character level + 3) to his skill points.


Egh.
The wording is unclear (do you mean my overall BAB, or my BAB granted from this class? Same for saves.)
As with any class - BAB and saves granted from this class.


Regarding balance, something like this will only end up broken. Not overpowered. Not underpowered. Just broken. It pushes stat advancement very high, very quickly, which pushes it towards flash in the pan, one trick pony builds that can only go "THOG HIT IT HARDER" or "I have ultimate arcane power! Let me use my epic stats to DISINTEGRATE YOU REALLY HARD", which is not the way towards orthodox balance in 3.x (giving a small variety of somewhat specialized abilities, making you at least partially effective in all situations, with some situations that you excel at.)

The idea is that you get the stats - but you don't get all the rest of class features you had from different classes. It should be either a good starting cushion for a caster (you are not going to be a fighter, you don't need all those battle abilities) or a good boost to a high level fighter.


A little change: you only count your Str/Dex modifier as your BAB bonus(limit of +1/level of advancer still applies).

[AstralFire]

I can't see myself making a build with this character with more than a 1 or 2 level dip, is the issue. And you are getting a lot for those two levels.

But if you go on any longer, the lack of class features begins significantly whittling down your options; that's contrary to general theories of good class design (ones I agree with) where the goal is to get people to stay with classes for at least a handful of levels. If you intend it only for a dip, I'd just go right ahead and limit it to two or three levels, instead of its odd "cannot have a stat over 24" restriction, which penalizes someone who rolled high on one stat but low elsewhere.

And I would really just go ahead and give it a higher hit dice, skill points, and BAB as well. The BAB and save formula is just... I don't see the point of it, honestly?

[SinsI]

I will preface this post with the statement that I'm terrible at determining whether or not something is balanced...but being able to just jack up your stats seems ridiculously overpower for someone like a martial type, especially if you let them keep their attack bonus.

I'm not sure how this would play out with say, a caster (i.e., are the stat boosts worth the loss of caster levels? Are they too powerful?) but I can see this breaking a game for a martial type.
Well, at level 15 it is going to give you ~ 18.5 HP, +1 to Damage and +1 AC, plus some improvements to mental attributes - nothing fancy, and fighters are underpowered at those levels anyway.

[SinsI]

I can't see myself making a build with this character with more than a 1 or 2 level dip, is the issue. And you are getting a lot for those two levels.

But if you go on any longer, the lack of class features begins significantly whittling down your options; that's contrary to general theories of good class design (ones I agree with) where the goal is to get people to stay with classes for at least a handful of levels. If you intend it only for a dip, I'd just go right ahead and limit it to two or three levels, instead of its odd "cannot have a stat over 24" restriction, which penalizes someone who rolled high on one stat but low elsewhere.

And I would really just go ahead and give it a higher hit dice, skill points, and BAB as well. The BAB and save formula is just... I don't see the point of it, honestly?
Better attributes are going to give you enough of those HP and skill points.

Just look at this as an improved racial level adjustment that you can take later on in the game.

[AstralFire]

Better attributes are going to give you enough of those HP and skill points.

Just look at this as an improved racial level adjustment that you can take later on in the game.

Then run it like a bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm). This weird BAB/Save mechanic with abysmally low hit points and skill points is just strange - it doesn't make much sense as a PrC as it doesn't keep pace very well at higher levels for long, and at lower levels it is overpowered compared to level adjustment.

[SinsI]

Then run it like a bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm). This weird BAB/Save mechanic with abysmally low hit points and skill points is just strange - it doesn't make much sense as a PrC as it doesn't keep pace very well at higher levels for long, and at lower levels it is overpowered compared to level adjustment.
First you say that it has abysmally low hit/skill points and then you say it is overpowered at lower levels.:confused:
And bloodlines are even more wierd than this "wierd BAB/Save mechaninc".

This might be a little bit more powerful than ordinary race level adjustment - you get an actual hit dice, BAB and 1 or 2 more ability points than usual - but you have to actually earn the XP to get that level.
At higher levels, this becomes a very viable fighter PrC - you don't get the bonus feats, but you get more damage and HP + AC, and a lot of skill points.

[AstralFire]

First you say that it has abysmally low hit/skill points and then you say it is overpowered at lower levels.:confused:
And bloodlines are even more wierd than this "wierd BAB/Save mechaninc".

Well... yes. When put in place at higher levels against class features, the entire package doesn't work past about two levels.

When taken at lower levels, it is much better than most level adjustments, especially since you're not getting hamstrung on anything HD based.

Bloodlines are flatout level adjustment, with the 'adjustment' increasing every so often, and benefits spread out over the 20 level course. They're the most balanced implementation of level adjustment/racial hit dice.

[SinsI]

Well... yes. When put in place at higher levels against class features, the entire package doesn't work past about two levels.

And how much do you think you can get? If you start with a score of 18 and improve it fully - you will only get three levels of Advancer.
With standard (start 8, redistribute 26 Pts) system you only have 64 points untill you hit the 24 wall - it is impossible to get more than 8 levels of Advancer.


When taken at lower levels, it is much better than most level adjustments, especially since you're not getting hamstrung on anything HD based.
You get racial features instantly, for free, without paying anything up front - you only suffer later on due to LA. If you're going to have a lvl1 session, a character from a powerful race is going to have a serious advantage.
This class? You're paying for each of it's features just like the rest of your party.

[AstralFire]

Right. Then, as I said, why not just go ahead and put a hard cap on this class's levels? This strange cap that is based on your pre-existing stats means irregular results for how much someone can fit this build in, including when you decide to take the class in the course of your advancement. The fact that you cannot predictably control the maximum number of levels someone can take makes this class harder to balance against oddball builds that are one-trick, high stat builds.

And not having HD or saves means LA comes up short against this class at low levels.
Half-Giant (SRD, player intended race) gets: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, Powerful Build as far as abilities that actually matter.
One level of this class plus human gets: +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +1 Int, +1 Wis, +1 Cha, an extra hit die of protection (the faster your hit die go up, the quicker sleep is not a threat), an extra feat, +1 BAB, some degree of saves, possibly, depending on what your starting mental stats were.

As I said originally, the current structure of this class makes for a class with extremely wide variance of results, broken - not overpowered, not underpowered, just broken. Inconsistent performance when used in expected ways. Following a structure closer to a traditional class or a bloodline will limit this.

[SinsI]

The main abuse of such a class (as I see it) is from those that want to get very high stats - I don't want them to be able to get more than a couple levels in this PrC. OTOH, if someone relies on many attributes and has a balanced set of them(paladin, ranger), he should be able to get several levels in Advancer.

Advancer might be a little bit stronger overall, but strongest abuse of Half-Giant gives you +2 damage on a hit(1 from Str, 1 from Powerful Build) - and only +1 damage for Advancer.
And Half-Giant is not a very good comparison due to its psionic nature - it's hard to judge psionics.

People take stronger races because they allow them to survive early game better - but do you really think that 1st level Advancer(d4 HD, no special abilities) has a better chance of survival than a 1st level Human Barbarian?

P.S. As for HD and sleep - you can always play an elf...

[AstralFire]

1) Psionic races are not very different at all from non-psionic races. Kalashtar is the most different, and it's LA +0.
2) Powerful Build translates to more damage than that.
3) So does +1 BAB. In fact, at their simplest, least abusive two-handed forms, they're right on par with one another in terms of damage increase. (+1 BAB is +3 damage with a two-hander and you get a spare feat; even burning it on the terrible Weapon Specialization brings you up to +5 (I know you can't get that at level 1; it is a good baseline for the absolute minimum effectiveness a feat can have and ever find its way into a combat build, however. If you want, pretend it's weapon focus, which means that at level 2, you can power attack for 2 and have a better chance of hitting, still, than the half-giant), Powerful Build Greatsword gets an extra 4.5 damage. Both can result in much, much higher damage increases when optimized.) But the human's better on all other fronts, including being one step ahead on his feat chains.
4) Sleep is hardly the only spell with an HD target.
5) The widely varying saves are still an issue.

You don't seem to have much interest in taking input on this, so I'm going to stop trying.

[SinsI]

1) You scrapped all the psionic abilities - and those can be worth a lot to a psionic character.
2) Maybe - and that would only make Half-Giant stronger in this comparison
3) Advancer doesn't get an additional +1 BAB. He counts the one he gets from that +2 Str for that purpose - Half-Giant has exactly the same chance to hit.
4) Depends. I'd just convert those spells to use the character level instead.


As I said originally, the current structure of this class makes for a class with extremely wide variance of results, broken - not overpowered, not underpowered, just broken. Inconsistent performance when used in expected ways. Following a structure closer to a traditional class or a bloodline will limit this.
This class tries to provide a drastically different advancement scheme - of course it might be broken.


You don't seem to have much interest in taking input on this, so I'm going to stop trying.
I just don't see how you can make it closer to a "traditional class" - the whole concept is alien to those. Take saves, for example - the idea is to double the bonuses you recieve from attributes(up to your class level in Advancer); since you do want BAB over basic "to hit" bonus from Str, some of that is converted to a BAB for this class. It has HD at all just to recieve bonuses from constitution, same with those minimalistic skill points.

[AstralFire]

1) You scrapped all the psionic abilities - and those can be worth a lot to a psionic character.

2 PP is worthless. Stomp is situationally useful at best - not a match up.


Advancer doesn't get an additional +1 BAB. He counts the one he gets from that +2 Str for that purpose - Half-Giant has exactly the same chance to hit.

...What? Let me get this straight, you're counting your strength modifier bonus as part of your BAB, but it doesn't actually add to your BAB? This just gets more and more convoluted - you need to reword things for clarity, and I really don't even see the point of this now. It's a very unintuitive ruling for what ends up a minor benefit at best to the average character as they'll only be taking a few levels of this.

On their character sheet, they will have to subtract their class level from their Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom modifiers, then add these values to their BAB, Fort, Reflex, and Will.


4) Depends. I'd just convert those spells to use the character level instead.

That disrupts its usage on monsters who don't have an ECL due to simply being too off the wall to be a character, but that works. if you're using that as a house rule, you need to make that clear.



I just don't see how you can make it closer to a "traditional class" - the whole concept is alien to those. Take saves, for example - the idea is to double the bonuses you recieve from attributes(up to your class level in Advancer); since you do want BAB over basic "to hit" bonus from Str, some of that is converted to a BAB for this class.

You can use a bloodline, which is why I pointed them out. Lets you litter bonuses over levels rather than punching them through all at once.

[SinsI]

Level Adjustment gives you advantages first("for free") and you pay for them afterwards, till the end of your character's life.
A level in PrC gives you advantages in exchange for the immediate payment.
Bloodline gives you some advantages first("for free"), some after the payment and you might have to pay several times - it has all the disadvantages of Level Adjustment and you don't even get the full thing you paid for until later on.


...What? Let me get this straight, you're counting your strength modifier bonus as part of your BAB, but it doesn't actually add to your BAB? This just gets more and more convoluted - you need to reword things for clarity, and I really don't even see the point of this now. It's a very unintuitive ruling for what ends up a minor benefit at best to the average character as they'll only be taking a few levels of this.
I haven't completely thought it through yet, but rough draft is like this:
Each +2 Str normally improves your melee chances to hit by +1 (and you also get other benefits like +1 damage). If you have a level in Advancer, you don't get that +1 to hit(but still have the rest of the benefits), but you get +1 BAB. Your total attack roll stays the same.
I'm not really sure how to handle ranged attacks or attacks made with Finesse. You really shouldn't get the same bonus from the same stat twice - but wouldn't that make your BAB different for melee/ranged?

[AstralFire]

Level Adjustment gives you advantages first("for free") and you pay for them afterwards, till the end of your character's life.
A level in PrC gives you advantages in exchange for the immediate payment.
Bloodline gives you some advantages first("for free"), some after the payment and you might have to pay several times - it has all the disadvantages of Level Adjustment and you don't even get the full thing you paid for until later on.

You'll note that it generally ends up stronger than a strict level adjustment over time, because it can give these abilities gradually. Level adjustments have the problem that they're too frail at low levels and just don't keep up at high levels. Delaying the rate of both level loss and power gain does wonders.


I haven't completely thought it through yet, but rough draft is like this:
Each +2 Str normally improves your melee chances to hit by +1 (and you also get other benefits like +1 damage). If you have a level in Advancer, you don't get that +1 to hit(but still have the rest of the benefits), but you get +1 BAB. Your total attack roll stays the same.
I'm not really sure how to handle ranged attacks or attacks made with Finesse. You really shouldn't get the same bonus from the same stat twice - but wouldn't that make your BAB different for melee/ranged?

These are more reasons just to scrap this mechanic. A melee character can stomach losing up to 4 BAB without having to dramatically change their damage somehow, anyway.

[Person_Man]

Well, if you're interested in boosting your physical stats, then using Wildshape or Polymorph or Alter Self is far more efficient. If you're interested in boosting your mental stats, any class that doesn't progress spellcasting would be useless to casters, and anything that doesn't provide full BAB would be useless to melee builds. So I'm not sure where the place of this build would be.

It would also help to have a fluffy backstory. Why is there a class that allows you to improve any attribute? How do they do it? Etc. People are a lot more likely to support an idea that they can picture in their head then a collection of statistics.

Anywho, it's a solid idea. It just needs to be fleshed out.

[Golden-Esque]

I'm trying to make a prestige class that solely concentrates on improving one's attributes.

Ideas so far:
"Advancer"


Prereqs: all base attributes must be less than 24, you cannot take more levels in this class if you have a stat of 24.

HD: 1d4
Skill points per level: 1 + Int modifier.

Each level up, you get +1 to all your base attributes, and an additional +1 to 3 different attributes of your choice. If this increases your number of skillpoints allowed from your previous classes - you retroactively gain them(normal attribute improvement every fourth level also counts).

Basic Attack Bonus: You can count your Dex or Str modifier as your BAB (up to your Advancer level). (this means that if you have gotten +2 to Str from this class, you only get +1 to your attack)
Saves: You can use your Wisdom modifier as your Will save bonus, Constitution modifier as your Fortitude save bonus and Dexterity modifier as your Reflex save bonus (all up to your Advancer Level).


What do you think - is this balanced enough? Is there anything similar in the core/other homebrew classes? Would you be willing to play it?
What class skills do you recommend? Any bonus feats/additional class features?

At a Glance:
#1 - Retroactive Skill Points is a bad idea. Essentially this class is going back in time to improve things the character already knows. Intelligence boosts do not usually result in Retroactive Skill Points as far as I'm aware.

#2 - I'm feeling more of an Intense Trainer for this Prestige Class. Drop the +1 to all and make it a +X to one.

#3 - You run the risk of making this Prestige Class a One-Pick Pony, as I call it. That is, take 1st Level and leave. A Prestige Class should always be able to be attractive enough to make it to the last level.

#3b - On that note, your best bet is probably to not give any Ability Points at 1st Level. However, there's still a lot of fun stuff you can do with this class. Perhaps every few levels the Character can select one of the six Attributes to always be able to take 10 on those kinds of checks (Charisma checks for Charisma, Wisdom checks for Wisdom, etc). Balance it out, make the class as much about skills as it is about Abilities, since the two are so heavily linked.

[SinsI]

Well, if you're interested in boosting your physical stats, then using Wildshape or Polymorph or Alter Self is far more efficient. If you're interested in boosting your mental stats, any class that doesn't progress spellcasting would be useless to casters, and anything that doesn't provide full BAB would be useless to melee builds. So I'm not sure where the place of this build would be.

It would also help to have a fluffy backstory. Why is there a class that allows you to improve any attribute? How do they do it? Etc. People are a lot more likely to support an idea that they can picture in their head then a collection of statistics.

Anywho, it's a solid idea. It just needs to be fleshed out.
This is more or less a civilian class - that's why it only has such a small HD, and no special class features. You join a society that wants to find best ways to improve oneself - through special training, various chemical and magical drugs, etc.(they are the ones that make those precious Manuals of Excercise...).
In it you study new ways of solving problems, memorizing things, influencing other people...

As an optional way to balance this class - this PrC is not free, each level is going to cost the character quite a bit.


At a Glance:
#1 - Retroactive Skill Points is a bad idea. Essentially this class is going back in time to improve things the character already knows. Intelligence boosts do not usually result in Retroactive Skill Points as far as I'm aware.

#2 - I'm feeling more of an Intense Trainer for this Prestige Class. Drop the +1 to all and make it a +X to one.

#3 - You run the risk of making this Prestige Class a One-Pick Pony, as I call it. That is, take 1st Level and leave. A Prestige Class should always be able to be attractive enough to make it to the last level.

#3b - On that note, your best bet is probably to not give any Ability Points at 1st Level. However, there's still a lot of fun stuff you can do with this class. Perhaps every few levels the Character can select one of the six Attributes to always be able to take 10 on those kinds of checks (Charisma checks for Charisma, Wisdom checks for Wisdom, etc). Balance it out, make the class as much about skills as it is about Abilities, since the two are so heavily linked.
1. It is not really Retroactive Skill Points - instead of studiying completely new things you take a closer look at all the things you've learned before and get new benefits from your past experience.
2. Intence Trainer might be an interesting option, but it is too munchkin for my taste - very easy to abuse. Prereqs are in place exactly for stopping such use.
3. This PrC is meant to be useful for those that need many abilities - bards, paladins, rangers - or those casters that can't get access to their new spells due to ability requirements.
3b. Maybe some meta-training abilities? If you know how to push yourself past your limits - you can also help others... Something like temporary ability boost transfer...

One more change: BAB is granted because of your all-round training, your hightened Intellect and Wisdom take part in it just as well as your improved Strength and Dexterity. Take your minimum base ability modifier - that's your BAB bonus from this PrC (minimum 0, maximum your Advancer level).

[Golden-Esque]

You join a society that wants to find best ways to improve oneself - through special training, various chemical and magical drugs, etc.

Magical Drugs boosting someone? Now THAT sounds cool.


As an optional way to balance this class - this PrC is not free, each level is going to cost the character quite a bit.

Do tell. What kind of prices did you have in mind, for the price is already kinda steep. Spellcasters essentially loose a level of casting and melee loose some of their special features. That's a pretty big cost in on itself.


1. It is not really Retroactive Skill Points - instead of studiying completely new things you take a closer look at all the things you've learned before and get new benefits from your past experience.


2. Intense Trainer might be an interesting option, but it is too munchkin for my taste - very easy to abuse. Prereqs are in place exactly for stopping such use.

I stole the name from a Fallout 3 Perk. In Fallout 3, the Intense Training Perk was a special "feat" that let you increase one of your S.P.E.C.I.A.L. scores (Ability Scores) by one. If there's another class / etc with the name, sorry. That's not exactly what I was referring to. Call it a bad joke.


3. This PrC is meant to be useful for those that need many abilities - bards, paladins, rangers - or those casters that can't get access to their new spells due to ability requirements.

The problem with a class like this is, however, that the classes who benefit from it also suffer by loosing class levels to a class that does little more then pump up their abilities.


3b. Maybe some meta-training abilities? If you know how to push yourself past your limits - you can also help others... Something like temporary ability boost transfer... That sounds fun too. Something along the lines of Inspire Competence, mabye?


One more change: BAB is granted because of your all-round training, your hightened Intellect and Wisdom take part in it just as well as your improved Strength and Dexterity. Take your minimum base ability modifier - that's your BAB bonus from this PrC (minimum 0, maximum your Advancer level).

It might just be easier to give them the "average" BAB. A class like this isn't so focused on melee that it studies battle as hard as, say, a Fighter, but it does try to stay well-rounded enough that the Advancer would be more melee-competent then, say, a Wizard.

[SinsI]

Magical Drugs boosting someone? Now THAT sounds cool.
The problem with a class like this is, however, that the classes who benefit from it also suffer by loosing class levels to a class that does little more than pump up their abilities.

This kinda reminds me of Fallout...
Class skill - alchemy&herbalism; The more levels of Advancer you have, the more potent drugs to provide a temporary doping you can make. Their usage requires advanced knowledge and some body enchancements that only Advancer has, so only characters with levels in Advancer can use them. If you want to use a higher level drug(one made by someone with more levels in Advancer), you need to do a (knowledge(alchemy)?) check or it is wasted.
Some of those drugs help spellcasting, so even at high levels it is a useful alternative for casters.

The cost of this prestige class is not a one-time - you must constantly pay for the drug ingredients to keep yourself hightened(~1gp/day for each level of Advancer). Each day you don't, you're affected with a temporary withdrawal syndrome: you get a temporary -1 penalty to all your attributes for each level of Advancer you have.

[imp_fireball]

Let's see...

A water orc Barbarian 1/Advancer 19 (no feats included)

First level stats (32 point buy) = 22 STR, 8 DEX, 20 CON, 6 WIS, 6 CHA, 6 INT

HP (average) = 11 hp
Attack = +7
Total AC = 9
Init = -1
Saves = +7 FORT, -1 REF, -1 WILL
Skill Points = 4 sp

And now upon reaching 20th level

Stats (increasing the obvious CON and STR along with DEX) = 60 STR, 46 DEX, 56 CON, 25 WIS, 25 CHA, 25 INT

HP (average) = 494 hp
Attack = +33/+28 (assuming +8 BAB gives two attacks as normal)
Total AC = 28
Init = +18
Saves = +25 FORT, +18 REF, +7 WILL
Skill Points = 180 sp

All in all, it seems pretty balanced, but again, the martial side of things can be pretty lethal. Then again 54 INT for a human at 20th definitely surpasses anything any other class or deity could achieve, but then again that's the purpose of this class.

It also seems to already have more variety than a barbarian. It's got lots of initiative and skills for less attacks.

So, review?

[Drothmal]

Let's see...

A water orc Barbarian 1/Advancer 19 (no feats included)

First level stats (32 point buy) = 22 STR, 8 DEX, 20 CON, 6 WIS, 6 CHA, 6 INT

HP (average) = 11 hp
Attack = +7
Total AC = 9
Init = -1
Saves = +7 FORT, -1 REF, -1 WILL
Skill Points = 4 sp

And now upon reaching 20th level

Stats (increasing the obvious CON and STR along with DEX) = 60 STR, 46 DEX, 56 CON, 25 WIS, 25 CHA, 25 INT

HP (average) = 494 hp
Attack = +33/+28 (assuming +8 BAB gives two attacks as normal)
Total AC = 28
Init = +18
Saves = +25 FORT, +18 REF, +7 WILL
Skill Points = 180 sp

All in all, it seems pretty balanced, but again, the martial side of things can be pretty lethal. Then again 54 INT for a human at 20th definitely surpasses anything any other class or deity could achieve, but then again that's the purpose of this class.

It also seems to already have more variety than a barbarian. It's got lots of initiative and skills for less attacks.

So, review?

I thought you could only take levels in this class if none of your scores is above 24

"you cannot take more levels in this class if you have a stat of 24"

Thus it would be impossible to take 19 levels in this... I haven't done the math, but it's unlikely that you could take more than 10 levels (if you start with all 10s and distribute the bonuses as much as possible, you could end up with all 25s in 10 levels). So you would avoid having above-god stats...

I like the idea of the PRC a lot. I do think that it is very easy to abuse, but it might fit well in more role-oriented campaigns where you need to improve a stat due to some development in the character

[Demons_eye]

I think its a cool idea but what about Gestalt? I mean If this was allowed by my DM (and we always play Gestalt) I would pick this every time. EVERY TIME. Hell you could make True namer work with this as the other side.

[Eloel]

This thing is overpowered... At 4 levels, you can possibly get +6 to every stat, with +4 to saves, +4 BAB.

A rogue;
+4 Str -> +2 Damage, ++Carrying Capacity
+8 Dex -> +4 to-hit, +4 AC, +4 initiative, +4 reflex, +4 to most skills that matter
+8 Con -> +80HP (over 20 levels), +4 Fort
+8 Int -> +80SP (over 20 levels), +4 to almost any other skill that matters
+4 Wis -> +2 to few skills, +2 Will
+4 Cha -> +2 to social skills, +2 UMD

You're getting;
+1 BAB
+3 Base Fort
+2 Base Reflex
+3 Base Will
Over a straight Rogue.

You're losing 2d6 SA dice, 1 Trap Sense, and a Special Ability.

Also, it's paradoxial. When you get 24 in a stat, you lose the prerequisites for the PrC, thus losing your stat bonuses. When you lose the stats, you have re-gained the prerequisites, and thus gain your stats back. Which are above 24 again...

If nothing else, this class gives you 9 Epic Feats (Great X) per level. Along with better-than-good saves, and full BAB.

[SinsI]

I think its a cool idea but what about Gestalt? I mean If this was allowed by my DM (and we always play Gestalt) I would pick this every time. EVERY TIME. Hell you could make True namer work with this as the other side.
The idea of this class is to trade class abilities for character abilities. If you were to add another additional class to it, you'd have somebody with no such weakness. In gestalt settings I'd improve ability gain and set this class as a "double slot" prestige class.

Due to the very nature of Advancer training, they are very good at restoring lost attributes. One of the drugs Advancer can make cures ability damage.

[Eloel]

This class sacrifices power for flavor, aye?

[SinsI]

This thing is overpowered... At 4 levels, you can possibly get +6 to every stat, with +4 to saves, +4 BAB.

A rogue;
+4 Str -> +2 Damage, ++Carrying Capacity
+8 Dex -> +4 to-hit, +4 AC, +4 initiative, +4 reflex, +4 to most skills that matter
+8 Con -> +80HP (over 20 levels), +4 Fort
+8 Int -> +80SP (over 20 levels), +4 to almost any other skill that matters
+4 Wis -> +2 to few skills, +2 Will
+4 Cha -> +2 to social skills, +2 UMD

You're getting;
1)+1 BAB
+3 Base Fort
+2 Base Reflex
+3 Base Will
Over a straight Rogue.

2)You're losing 2d6 SA dice, 1 Trap Sense, and a Special Ability.

3)Also, it's paradoxial. When you get 24 in a stat, you lose the prerequisites for the PrC, thus losing your stat bonuses. When you lose the stats, you have re-gained the prerequisites, and thus gain your stats back. Which are above 24 again...
1) You only get full BAB if you had possible ability modifiers for all of your stats. Otherwise, you only get 3/4 BAB per level or even as low as 1/2 BAB per level (if you distribute your ability gains like you did)
2) You're also also losing those levels in Rogue that determine your ability to be flanked, you'd get access to things like Improved Evasion much later;

3) You don't really lose the prerequisites. It's just that they haven't found reliable ways of improving your stats past that (18 +5 Wishes) limit. Sometimes it works (that's why you can take full +2 to a stat if you have a 23, and add +1 from your every 4th level), but it's not reliable, that's why they don't train characters that are too good.

[Eloel]

Have you checked Lightning Warrior (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-868384.html)?
It seems to be THE base class that would enter this PrC

[SinsI]

Have you checked Lightning Warrior (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-868384.html)?
It seems to be THE base class that would enter this PrC
That was a nice laugh.

If you seriously think Advancer is as overpowered as LW, I'm open to suggestions - how would you design such a class?



If nothing else, this class gives you 9 Epic Feats (Great X) per level. Along with better-than-good saves, and full BAB.
All this class gives you is 9 Wish spells - and you can't even spend them all on one stat - plus a couple feats that improve your saves(and I wouldn't call 0.5-1 to each save per level "better than good") and a crappy HD - for the full price of a level.

Yes, at high levels it's more powerful than a basic fighter - and those are too weak. Would you really trade your 17th level in Wizard for a level in Advancer?

[Eloel]

Give +2 to one stat, and +1 to another. And give the HD-abilities based on what you choose.


Stat - 0 - +1 - +2

Strength - Bad BAB - Med BAB - Good BAB
Dexterity - Low Reflex - High Reflex - BAB Increase (bad-med-good)
Constitution - d6 HD - d8 HD - d12 HD
Inteligence - 2+Int SP - 4+Int SP - 8+Int SP
Wisdom - Low Wisdom - High Wisdom - BAB Increase
Charisma - Treat as any stat you wish.

Or something of this kind would be more balanced...

[SinsI]

Give +2 to one stat, and +1 to another. And give the HD-abilities based on what you choose.


Stat - 0 - +1 - +2

Strength - Bad BAB - Med BAB - Good BAB
Dexterity - Low Reflex - High Reflex - BAB Increase (bad-med-good)
Constitution - d6 HD - d8 HD - d12 HD
Inteligence - 2+Int SP - 4+Int SP - 8+Int SP
Wisdom - Low Wisdom - High Wisdom - BAB Increase
Charisma - Treat as any stat you wish.

Or something of this kind would be more balanced...
That sounds extremely weak to me. A level is a very big price - and what you're offering is essentially 2 Manuals of Excercise (one +1, one +2) with poor saves/HD/BAB and no class abilities...
There's just no way anyone would pick a (+2 Str, +1 Con) over pure barbarian, and it's certainly not an option for anyone with access to magic that can boost abilities.

[Eloel]

Let us get straight on this. I thought these were unnamed bonuses. Manuals are strictly limited to +5, thus these stack with them.

[Eloel]

War Hulk, a PrC generally referred to as 'OMG', gets NO BAB, and +2 Str every level.

A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills
So, you even get a penalty at level1, for the +2 STR. There ARE abilities that might be useful throughout the PrC, but so is +1 to a stat you choose is useful, and arguably even more so than War Hulk abilities.

[SinsI]

Let us get straight on this. I thought these were unnamed bonuses. Manuals are strictly limited to +5, thus these stack with them.
Yes, they are - and they are also strictly limited to a maximum of 25, so this class + 5 wishes can give you a maximum stat of 30.

[Eloel]

Yes, they are - and they are also strictly limited to a maximum of 25, so this class + 5 wishes can give you a maximum stat of 30.

35, with the level bonuses. Add +6 to that from an item, and you're looking at a +15 modifier.

A character without access to this PrC gets 18+5+5+6 = +12 modifier, significantly lower. No non-caster class' 4 levels is worth more than +8 to one stat and +4 to another. NONE. Including ToB.

[SinsI]

35, with the level bonuses. Add +6 to that from an item, and you're looking at a +15 modifier.
34, and you have to live through at least first 4 levels without any class abilities and 1d4 HD. Otherwise it's 33 or even less.


A character without access to this PrC gets 18+5+5+6 = +12 modifier, significantly lower. No non-caster class' 4 levels is worth more than +8 to one stat and +4 to another. NONE. Including ToB.
Here you are: +8 to one stat, +6 to two other stats.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sprites—Pixies_(Race)


War Hulk, a PrC generally referred to as 'OMG', gets NO BAB, and +2 Str every level.
Quote:A character with levels in the war hulk prestige class is considered to have 0 ranks in all Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based skills

So, you even get a penalty at level1, for the +2 STR. There ARE abilities that might be useful throughout the PrC, but so is +1 to a stat you choose is useful, and arguably even more so than War Hulk abilities.
War Hulk gets an Area melee attack with cleave; the disadvantage at 1st level is not going to matter to those that select it, and War Hulk continues to increase your abilities after they've already surpassed all sane limits.

Advancer gets none of those special abilities; at low levels the lack of class abilities more than outweights overall ability boost; at high levels it gets stronger but characters of those levels have access to various magic items that provide even stronger[+ability] benefits without the cost of a level - yes, you can stack them with Advancer, but that inability to get more levels in it after having a stat of 24 is a severe limitation in power.
+2 to several abilities is not much stronger than a War Hulk bonus if only one of those is critical for your character.

[Eloel]

Here you are: +8 to one stat, +6 to two other stats.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Sprites—Pixies_(Race)



No HD, No skill points, No saves, No BAB. Pure LA. 4 Levels of this class will net alot more than the pixie. Let alone that, 2 levels of the class, as you've written it, rivals the 4 LA. That, should not happen.
Also, 9 abilities is 9 castings of Wish, true. That is 45k XP, for a single level. 45k XP gets you to level 46 from level 45, so you're not even breaking even till those levels in XP. (And there's no limit like -upto +5-, you get it up to 25 if you so desire. Assuming you were 18 at start, that is +7. If you were 16 or something, that is +9)


+2 to several abilities is not much stronger than a War Hulk bonus if only one of those is critical for your character.
+1 BAB, +1 AC, +1 init, +1 reflex, +1 fort, +1 HP/level (+1 Int, Wis, Cha) vs War Hulk abilities. Advancer smacks War Hulk and spits on his face.

[SinsI]

No HD, No skill points, No saves, No BAB. Pure LA. 4 Levels of this class will net alot more than the pixie. Let alone that, 2 levels of the class, as you've written it, rivals the 4 LA. That, should not happen.
Also, 9 abilities is 9 castings of Wish, true. That is 45k XP, for a single level. 45k XP gets you to level 46 from level 45, so you're not even breaking even till those levels in XP. (And there's no limit like -upto +5-, you get it up to 25 if you so desire. Assuming you were 18 at start, that is +7. If you were 16 or something, that is +9)

DR 10/Cold Iron, Greater Invisibility at will, Spell Resistance and lots of spell-like abilities, plus you get all that for free at the beginning, without endangering yourself via adventuring.

45k XP is 10th to 11th level.
And there's a lot of magic items that stack (because they are from different books).



+1 BAB, +1 AC, +1 init, +1 reflex, +1 fort, +1 HP/level (+1 Int, Wis, Cha) vs War Hulk abilities. Advancer smacks War Hulk and spits on his face.
War Hulk's most important ability is his area attack, two levels in it allows you to lay waste to dozens of enemies.

Advancer is just a good supplement to your main class, but it's not a automatic win.

[Eloel]

DR 10/Cold Iron, Greater Invisibility at will, Spell Resistance and lots of spell-like abilities, plus you get all that for free at the beginning, without endangering yourself via adventuring.

And as they begin adventuring they start with something like 5 HP. Anyone else has around 25 by then. Feel the difference?


45k XP is 10th to 11th level.
45k XP is 1st to 10th level. 10th to 11th is 10k XP.


And there's a lot of magic items that stack (because they are from different books).

Magic items only stack if they give different bonuses. A dozen items from a dozen sources don't stack if they all give Enhancement bonuses.


War Hulk's most important ability is his area attack, two levels in it allows you to lay waste to dozens of enemies.
Which you could just use Great Cleave on. If they're dieing with a single rock-sling, you could just use Great Cleave and kill them all either way. If they're strong enough, you're better off killing 1 or 2, instead of mildly damaging them all.


Advancer is just a good supplement to your main cluss, but it's not a automatic win.

Noone said it's an auto-win. It's just as powerful as Planar Shepherd or similar.

[SinsI]

And as they begin adventuring they start with something like 5 HP. Anyone else has around 25 by then. Feel the difference?

You know, Greater Invisibility, Fly 60ft, huge AC bonus from Dex +natural armor +dodge feat, DR/10 and SR 15+Class levels seems to me a little bit better protection than extra 20 HP.


45k XP is 1st to 10th level. 10th to 11th is 10k XP
Ah, yeah, my mistake. I somehow thought you start each new level with 0 XP...

[Eloel]

You know, Greater Invisibility, Fly 60ft, huge AC bonus from Dex +natural armor +dodge feat, DR/10 and SR 15+Class levels seems to me a little bit better protection than extra 20 HP.

It's too bad spells don't care about AC or DR then... At 5th level (your 1st class level), Acid Arrow (touch-spell without SR) kills you at round 1 on average.

Magic Missile, which hits no matter what (except SR, which is 50% chance to bypass with same level), kills you on hit. Ouch.
Anything HD-based, like Sleep, effects you way longer too...

[SinsI]

It's too bad spells don't care about AC or DR then... At 5th level (your 1st class level), Acid Arrow (touch-spell without SR) kills you at round 1 on average.

Magic Missile, which hits no matter what (except SR, which is 50% chance to bypass with same level), kills you on hit. Ouch.
Anything HD-based, like Sleep, effects you way longer too...
It's kinda hard to do a ranged touch attack on a creature with total concealment. Same with Magic Missile, if you interpret the
"or has less than total cover or total concealment" as "has less than total cover or has less than total concealment". Greater Invisibility provides you with total concealment. So you first have to Spot Check, next you have a 50% chance of total miss, and then you have to overcome SR or do a touch attack against a small(+1), very agile (+4 basic, can be more) creature that Dodges(+1) you - and you have to be sure it is not a Permanent Image.

[Eloel]

It's kinda hard to do a ranged touch attack on a creature with total concealment. Same with Magic Missile, if you interpret the
"or has less than total cover or total concealment" as "has less than total cover or has less than total concealment". Greater Invisibility provides you with total concealment. So you first have to Spot Check, next you have a 50% chance of total miss, and then you have to overcome SR or do a touch attack against a small(+1), very agile (+4 basic, can be more) creature that Dodges(+1) you - and you have to be sure it is not a Permanent Image.

A Strongheart Halfling that has taken Combat Expertise with bonus feat (the one Sprite doesn't have) is small(+1), agile(+1), defending(4 BAB to AC) and has taken 4 levels of Advancer (+8 Dex, for +4 AC), has +10 AC over what a L1 human has. You have +6. Boo. He also has like 5x your HP, +17 stats over what you have. Monk's Belt adds +4 AC from Wisdom, over your +2. You won't be hitting anything anytime soon