What is it exactly that makes Wizards OP?

[Darcand]

It certainly seems that nearly everyone agrees that casters in general, and wizards specifically are over powered to the point of being broken. I would like to know what exactly the reasoning behind this is.

Is it the versatility? Potential damage output? Ability to effectively remove an opponent from combat, or escape via spell rather then running?

Okay, nevermind, after writing that I think I answered my own question, so then new question: What changes need be made to bring other classes up to par or drop the caster down to level?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Meaningful out of combat options.

Battlefield control.

[DragoonWraith]

The Sorc/Wiz spell list needs to be nerfed a lot. That's a ton of work, of course, since the list is thousands of spells long - part of the problem to begin with.

Save-or-Sucks are basically much too powerful. The problem is, if they can't shut enemies down, they're pretty much not worth using. Status effects in most games are useless. I'm not sure you can successfully nerf them without completely making them useless, which is no fun.

[Eldariel]

Fixing spells, mostly. Right now, spells exist to make you nigh' invulnerable, to disable masses of opponents with even 1 weak save in one hit, to summon Around Your CR-creatures, to turn you (and party members) into an Around Your CR-creature while still maintaining your own feats, items & casting, and make a lot of this stuff last a long time.

Much of what spells do is just way better than what any other class can do. Everyone can move, but the casters are the only ones who can move hundreds of miles or planes of existence in one standard action (Teleport/Plane Shift). Everyone can fly, but Wizards just do it with investment of one 3rd/5th level spell per day while others burn tens of thousands on items to replicate it for a few turns. Everyone has an AC, but Wizard also tends to have a 50% miss chance & few fake copies to make hitting him no matter the attack roll very unlikely.

And to rub it in, the best counter to spells are...spells! Dispel Magic? Spell. Anti-Magic Field? Spell. True Seeing? Spell. Disjunction? Spell. Basically, spells aren't only the strongest offense and defense in the game, but they're also the best counter to spells. In some cases (take Prismatic Sphere for example) you pretty much NEED high-level casting to be able to do anything about it.


Note that many people opt towards buffing the other classes rather than weakening casters, although the few most egregious offenders (Planar Binding, Polymorph, Time Stop) just need to go/change for the system to be fair.

Giving mundane tools to interact with magic would help a ****ton, btw. That's why I'm homebrewing stuff like "Control Thoughts"-skill and martial maneuvers to deflect and disrupt spellcasting/magic and martial class features to be able to make Str-checks to break Force-effects and so on. All that really helps.

[Yahzi]

What changes need be made to bring other classes up to par or drop the caster down to level?
Fighters should get 5% magic resistance per level.

Wizards and Clerics should get to memorize spells once a month * level of the spell, so 9th level spells can only be cast every 9 months. Or better - years.

This would make melee and magic classes equal. However, virtually no one wants to play in a low-magic world.

[Jalor]

I just posted more or less this same thing. The fact that they can literally do anything.

"...anything?"

"Anything."

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Wizards and Clerics should get to memorize spells once a month * level of the spell, so 9th level spells can only be cast every 9 months. Or better - years.

This would make melee and magic classes equal. However, virtually no one wants to play in a low-magic world.

But then prepared spell casters would be unplayable.

[Milskidasith]

Fighters should get 5% magic resistance per level.

Wizards and Clerics should get to memorize spells once a month * level of the spell, so 9th level spells can only be cast every 9 months. Or better - years.

This would make melee and magic classes equal. However, virtually no one wants to play in a low-magic world.

Both of those make prepared spellcasters completely unplayable. At low levels, when casters are already weak (by no means weaker than fighters, but at the point where both of them very valuable), they get a ton weaker; after one day, they've probably used all their useful spells for a month. And by the time you hit high levels, wizards, even if they have so many spells they'd never hit the month limit (which I doubt), they just wouldn't be able to hit anything because everybody would have absurd resistance and they'd fail more often than not.

[Berserk Monk]

They have single high level spells that wipe out over a dozen foes.

[Darcand]

Well then, how about something like making the full attack option a standard action rather then a full round? This would let physical classes move about and still maintain their combat effectiveness.

And the possibility of increasing the availablity of specialty attacks such as stuns, disarms, and the like, so that those same classes can draw upon some battlefield utility?

Prehaps a buffing of the skill system too? To provide for some greater out of combat use. Maybe free skill points or a skill tree, akin to the ranger's combat style, but with a bonus skill set?

The only significant nerf I would like to see wizards take is a limiting to their spellbook, since the essentially limitless number of spells known is their real strength.

[jmbrown]

I'm going to experiment with increasing random encounters on a spell-by-spell basis. Something like +2% per spell level on the random encounter chart. Spells should attract monsters.

In order to prepare spells you have to rest 8 hours but spells cast in the last 8 hours are counted towards your limit per day. Every interruption tacks on an additional hour. Party's may find themselves resting 16+ hours because the casters are flinging magic back and forth which attracts the ire of other enemies.

Perhaps if combat is more plentiful then spell casting will be more frugal.

[Yukitsu]

Depends. At early levels, I make judicious use of a crossbow, sunrods, smoke sticks, acid and alchemists fire. Even tangle foot bags if I'm feeling punchy. You'd be amazed at how many fights end with a pointy stick at the thing glued to the ground that's on fire. The few spells are for special encounters only, ideally, unless the DM gives too much time to rest. At later levels, one spell to end them all and in the darkness bind them as it were. You won't be seeing as much of a percent increase on the field, but you will be seeing more monster attacks on towns, which is where the wizard casts his 9 buffs in a row. (Say goodbye to waterdeep)

[jmbrown]

Depends. At early levels, I make judicious use of a crossbow, sunrods, smoke sticks, acid and alchemists fire. Even tangle foot bags if I'm feeling punchy. You'd be amazed at how many fights end with a pointy stick at the thing glued to the ground that's on fire. The few spells are for special encounters only, ideally, unless the DM gives too much time to rest. At later levels, one spell to end them all and in the darkness bind them as it were. You won't be seeing as much of a percent increase on the field, but you will be seeing more monster attacks on towns, which is where the wizard casts his 9 buffs in a row. (Say goodbye to waterdeep)

This reminds me... is there any source where alchemy doesn't suck passed 3rd level? I'd love to see a system of scaling power in alchemy and rule it so that alchemy no longer requires you to be a caster. A level 10 fighter with craft (alchemy) that pops out his level's equivalent of grenades of slow and glitterdust bombs would certainly bring them up a notch.

[holywhippet]

From what I've heard, third edition was "balanced" based on the theory that fighters would be on the front line hitting enemies, rogues would be hiding in the shadows and making backstabs, clerics would be buffing/healing from the second rank and wizards would be casting offensive spells from the rear.

Unfortunately they left plenty of opportunities for the spellcasters to be far more creative with their offense. Clerics can become literal gods of war using the right combination of buffing spells. Wizards can pull off some combos that annihilate all in their path.

One of the core problems, aside from not enforcing class roles, is that all classes have the same "cost". When you get enough XP to gain a level you pick a class to level up as. Logical would dictate that all classes be equally valuable since the "cost" is the same. That simply isn't true. Early on wizards have strong limitations and a fighter is technically better but enough wizard levels ensures that battlefield dominance. In 2nd edition they fixed this by requiring different amounts of XP depending on your class. But 3rd edition went for a "unified" model for gaining levels. Changing back could help fix the problem a bit.

There are other things you do - make all persistent spells require concentration. So if the wizard gets hit they might lose their concentration on their mage armour spell for example. Some spells might require more than one round to cast.

4th edition has kind of fixed things, but that is by completely rewriting the system so that the differences between classes are mostly fluff. Everyone just has their own different batman style utility belt.

[Mastikator]

Fighters should get 5% magic resistance per level.

Wizards and Clerics should get to memorize spells once a month * level of the spell, so 9th level spells can only be cast every 9 months. Or better - years.

This would make melee and magic classes equal. However, virtually no one wants to play in a low-magic world.

Though it nerfs them to hell it's an interesting idea.

How about this:
It takes spell level * spell level to "recharge" used spell slots. So that first level spells are always 1/day, but then second level spells are 1/4days, ect all up to 9th level spells being 1/81days.
Extremely overpowered high level spells are scares as hell, like they kinda should be, but low levels are not as affected.
Spell slot to be recharged will be counted individually, if you cast 1 level 5 spell then it takes 25 days to regain that spell slot, if you cast another withing 12 days then the first is down to 13 and the second starts counting at 25.
It might be a lot of bookkeeping, but it's balanced IMO.

[The Mentalist]

Familiars. They are the most broken thing in the game.

[PId6]

Familiars. They are the most broken thing in the game.
If by broken you mean like the truenamer, then yes, yes they are.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Familiars. They are the most broken thing in the game.

I'm sure you'll be happy to know that the Lightening Warrior has no familiar.

[The Mentalist]

I'm sure you'll be happy to know that the Lightening Warrior has no familiar.

They don't stand a chance.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If by broken you mean like the truenamer, then yes, yes they are.There are some interesting things you can do with a Familiar. Stack enough of them, and it will be more effective in combat than you are. Now whether that's because Fluffy is awesome or because you suck is another matter. :smalltongue:

[sofawall]

I'm always so happy when I actually get those old-timey Gleemax and GitP references.

Milk for the Cat God!

[Olo Demonsbane]

Yarn for the Yarn Throne!

[Kroy]

Lightning warrior, can't believe that guy was serious...

[Xenogears]

Lightning warrior, can't believe that guy was serious...

I still say there is no way any human being (or even a cat or dog or something) could present the lighting warrior and be serious...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The best way to bring other characters up to par with spellcasters would be to either use ToB, or encourage them to multiclass into spellcasting or play a spellcaster from the start. Another option would be to use the tier system's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) partial gestalt:

Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.
With that I'd include Magewright with the NPC classes if you have ECS.

[Frosty]

Eh...adepts are already decently powerful. Do you really want to give Beguilers the ability to prepare Heal, Polymorph, Baleful Polymorph, etc?

The adept spell list is fairly kickass, even if they get it late. And hey, if nothing else, 2 levels of it gets the Beguiler a free familiar, and the ability to use a lot more wands without UMD now.

[Yahzi]

But then prepared spell casters would be unplayable.
They wouildn't be unplayable. They just wouldn't be playable in module mode. You know, where the party has the planned 4 encounters each day, regardless of what they did or didn't do the day before. Of course, in module mode, wizards aren't particularly broken. Just have half the monsters save from the spell effect by DM Fiat, and everybody's happy.

But in role-playing mode, or sandbox mode, where the characters have lives and spend money on food and have NPC friends and allies and live in an actual society, then wizards who can cast once a year are still uber. The rarer magic is, the more powerful it becomes.

True, they won't be memorizing fireball much. Instead they'll memorize the one or two spells necessary to defeat the BBEG. Then the fighters and rogues will have to escort the wizard into the lair/dungeon, protecting him while he does cantrips and shoots a crossbow, until they come to the BBEG. Then the wiz novas, destroys the unkillable monster in a few rounds, and everybody splits up the treasure.

It's not a game where everybody gets to do an equal amount of combat every encounter, or even every session. But it's still a very playable game. It requires a special kind of player for the wizard - one who can enjoy issuing lines like "I've just told our foes exactly where we are" every time you ask them to cast even a cantrip. They have to plan ahead, settle for not being in the spotlight most of the time, be cryptic and clever, and view other people as necessary tools to be manipulated to victory rather than useless layabouts or an underappreciative audience. It's a tough act. But I've played that character, and it was a blast. :smallbiggrin:

[Frosty]

They wouildn't be unplayable. They just wouldn't be playable in module mode. You know, where the party has the planned 4 encounters each day, regardless of what they did or didn't do the day before. Of course, in module mode, wizards aren't particularly broken. Just have half the monsters save from the spell effect by DM Fiat, and everybody's happy.

But in role-playing mode, or sandbox mode, where the characters have lives and spend money on food and have NPC friends and allies and live in an actual society, then wizards who can cast once a year are still uber. The rarer magic is, the more powerful it becomes.

True, they won't be memorizing fireball much. Instead they'll memorize the one or two spells necessary to defeat the BBEG. Then the fighters and rogues will have to escort the wizard into the lair/dungeon, protecting him while he does cantrips and shoots a crossbow, until they come to the BBEG. Then the wiz novas, destroys the unkillable monster in a few rounds, and everybody splits up the treasure.

It's not a game where everybody gets to do an equal amount of combat every encounter, or even every session. But it's still a very playable game. It requires a special kind of player for the wizard - one who can enjoy issuing lines like "I've just told our foes exactly where we are" every time you ask them to cast even a cantrip. They have to plan ahead, settle for not being in the spotlight most of the time, be cryptic and clever, and view other people as necessary tools to be manipulated to victory rather than useless layabouts or an underappreciative audience. It's a tough act. But I've played that character, and it was a blast. :smallbiggrin:

True. but not every wizard ought to be like that, nor will eveyr person enjoy playing that archetype.

[Haven]

Lightning warrior, can't believe that guy was serious...

Same here.

Except with the literal use of "can't believe", where I actually don't believe it.

But back to the figurative use, I can't believe people think that guy was serious.

[Khanderas]

20 Fighters vs 20 other Fighters are about equal.

20 Fighters vs 1 other Fighter means certain doom to the outnumbered one.

20 Fighters vs 1 full caster prepared spells doom for the 20 Fighters.
(This is at higher levels obviously, where everyone mentioned has about the same level)

(Celerity-timestop, port out of melee range if he was, else, fly, cloudkill, invisible walls (cut off / box in say 5 of them to kill first), greater invisibility, summon spells to distract and finish with a handful of save or lose spells. If any alive, summon a few more monsters and start evocating. If still alive and almost out of spells, teleport home, have a nice dinner, sleep, refresh all spells and scry out the survivors).

And therewego. Why a caster wins even on empty-field-of-battle that is argurable the Fighters home turf. If we go into political pressure (having him arrested / executed for fake charges), Assassination 1 on 1 (Scry, teleport, ???, win) or nonlethal dickery (ooh the options), the Fighter is at a disadvantage from the start.

[peacenlove]

Back to the OP.
The changes that need to be made in my opinion are:
Move non combat / utility spells to all classes (maybe make a skill system THAT IS BETTER THAN TRUENAMER)
Fix / Ban broken combat spells (to those spells that inflict a status effect that seriously cripples the affected creature such as stun, daze etc, make the creature save each turn to shrug off effect.
Devise defensive feats / class abilities that give a fair chance to block said delibitating spells (blanket immunity is bad but giving a saving throw or the use of spell resistance to spells that normally didn't have them is good).
Get rid of blanket immunities. Replace them with bonuses to saves. This helps casters at first but helps you redesign their role since there isnt anymore the I-WTFPWN-the-living-totally-suck-vs-UNDEAD enchanter

[Doc Roc]

Would you like a cogent example?

[AslanCross]

Well then, how about something like making the full attack option a standard action rather then a full round? This would let physical classes move about and still maintain their combat effectiveness.

And the possibility of increasing the availablity of specialty attacks such as stuns, disarms, and the like, so that those same classes can draw upon some battlefield utility?

Prehaps a buffing of the skill system too? To provide for some greater out of combat use. Maybe free skill points or a skill tree, akin to the ranger's combat style, but with a bonus skill set?


(Might have been ninja'd already.)

Many of these are addressed by Tome of Battle.

-Martial maneuvers are the equivalent of melee "spells." Many are standard actions and deal far more damage than standard attacks or even full attacks. Those that are full-round actions either augment the full attack (Time Stands Still gives a DOUBLE full attack) or the charge action (Charging Minotaur is a charging bull rush + damage).

-Some of ToB's maneuvers have special effects. More mundane ones like the Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers can stun, ignore damage reduction or disarm, while more magical ones like the Shadow Hand maneuvers can inflict horrible ability damage.

-Martial Adept classes get a lot of good mileage for their skills---especially the Diamond Mind discipline, which allows even first-level melee characters to have a potentially very high Will Save.

[Darcand]

(Might have been ninja'd already.)

Many of these are addressed by Tome of Battle.

-Martial maneuvers are the equivalent of melee "spells." Many are standard actions and deal far more damage than standard attacks or even full attacks. Those that are full-round actions either augment the full attack (Time Stands Still gives a DOUBLE full attack) or the charge action (Charging Minotaur is a charging bull rush + damage).

-Some of ToB's maneuvers have special effects. More mundane ones like the Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers can stun, ignore damage reduction or disarm, while more magical ones like the Shadow Hand maneuvers can inflict horrible ability damage.

-Martial Adept classes get a lot of good mileage for their skills---especially the Diamond Mind discipline, which allows even first-level melee characters to have a potentially very high Will Save.

I like it.

So then ToB is probably in, or at the very least from now onI am going to house rule in that full attack is a standard action.

Other new house rules this thread has inspired are removing the caster requirement to alchemy. Possibly to the item creation feats too, to allow non casters a less expensive way to get ahold of magical effects.

Limiting spells allowed at my table to core only (we typically only play with core rules anyway) to better control the power curve.

And I am kicking around a system for limiting spell ranges, so that in the example above said teleporter would die a pin cusion.

[FMArthur]

Limiting spells allowed at my table to core only (we typically only play with core rules anyway) to better control the power curve.

The only spell I've seen outside of core that approaches the brokenness found within the PHB spells is Celerity. Other than that, nearly every single problem-spell is from the PHB. It would actually be far more balanced to forbid the core spells and use the Spell Compendium.

[AstralFire]

The only spell I've seen outside of core that approaches the brokenness found within the PHB spells is Celerity. Other than that, nearly every single problem-spell is from the PHB. It would actually be far more balanced to forbid the core spells and use the Spell Compendium.

No single spell in splat is really up there with Core, but the amount of variety they offer and synergies can be very hard for a DM to counter given a crafty enough player. My general policy is to autoaccept pure damage spells from splat, and evaluate anything else closely.

[tyckspoon]

The only spell I've seen outside of core that approaches the brokenness found within the PHB spells is Celerity. Other than that, nearly every single problem-spell is from the PHB. It would actually be far more balanced to forbid the core spells and use the Spell Compendium.

Although you then get to experience fun things like Avasculate and Maw of Chaos. The Heart of (Element), Bite of the WereX, and.. what was it, (Greater) Visage of the Deity? spells also stand out as buffs that are more useful than most of Core. I think that's probably a fair trade for removing things like Time Stop, unfettered teleportation, cheap negative levels, and open-ended shapechanging, tho.

[woodenbandman]

Everything. Literally every action that a wizard takes is more powerful than any action that any other class takes, if the wizard is smart.

Fighter's standard action? attack.
Wizard's Standard action? ANY of THOUSANDS of spells, EACH more POWERFUL than the LAST.
Wizard's 2nd standard action? Whatever.

[Milskidasith]

Not all classes; clerics and druids have some pretty absurd (though not Wizard level broken) stuff they can do. If a cleric can survive one round against a wizard, he can easily destroy him with a Holy Word (or whatever). But the wizard is definitely stronger than those classes, it's just not as clear cut.

And yeah, Clerics get most of their brokeness out of core (as far as I can tell) while wizards get their brokeness in core.

[Frosty]

Although you then get to experience fun things like Avasculate and Maw of Chaos. The Heart of (Element), Bite of the WereX, and.. what was it, (Greater) Visage of the Deity? spells also stand out as buffs that are more useful than most of Core. I think that's probably a fair trade for removing things like Time Stop, unfettered teleportation, cheap negative levels, and open-ended shapechanging, tho.

Don't forget Shivering Touch.

[Steward]

I guess it's because it's easier for the game developers to think up newer and more powerful spells than to think of new ways for a guy with a sword to hit people with that sword. I mean, right now I could homebrew 10 spells with names like "Aura Convulsion, Lesser" and "Flame Nova", but it would take me at least a week to think of something nonmagical that Fighters could get.

[Frosty]

I guess it's because it's easier for the game developers to think up newer and more powerful spells than to think of new ways for a guy with a sword to hit people with that sword. I mean, right now I could homebrew 10 spells with names like "Aura Convulsion, Lesser" and "Flame Nova", but it would take me at least a week to think of something nonmagical that Fighters could get.

You mean things like Charging Minotaur?

[Steward]

I have no idea, but I bet you're right.

[Sinfire Titan]

4th edition has kind of fixed things, but that is by completely rewriting the system so that the differences between classes are mostly fluff. Everyone just has their own different batman style utility belt.

Even in 4E, Wizards are still a problem. They are writing the books, after all.


Note: Yes, Wizards in 4E are unbalanced again. Adventurer's Vault just makes it more obvious.

[Hida Reju]

What is it exactly that makes Wizards OP?

....about 10-15 spells in the core books and a library of extra options that no one else can touch. Also zero reasons not to Prc out as soon as possible.

Also it has been mentioned that the only effective counter to magic is more magic.

If you want wizards to be more on par with other classes then remove it all together and replace them with

Warmage CAr
Dread Necromancer HoH
Beguiler PHB2

This gives you a spell list choice that is fixed while still being powerful it is restricted enough to keep things within reason.