How high Can you get AC?

[oxinabox]

So I've had this idea for pumping AC.
Lvl 8 builds EDIT: ECL 8
32 pt buy.
full Wealth by lvl
What's the Highest AC build youi can come up with.


mine is a VoP, Halfling Monk 2/Psycicwarrior (with monastic training so he still gets monk benefits fro his psychic warrior lvls)

So
Wis=18 +2 (lvl 4 and 8) +2 (VoP)= 22 (+6)
Dex= 14 +2 (halfling) = 16 (+3)
Rest of point buy spent on not taking too much a a str penality to attack.

Size bonus to AC: +1 (small sized) AC
VoP give at total of: +8 AC from various sources (all of which stack with monk IIRC)
Monk=: +1 AC (allows wis to be added)

So Total AC: 29
with Dodge feat giving +1 agaist one foe.
and the ability to cast psionic shinkie-doo... um compression (for 6 rounds)
with reduces size by one catagory (making me tiny!). giving an extra +2 AC (a further one from size and a increase of dex mod by 1)

there are other Psywarrior powers that increase AC, but i don't theink they stack with monk/VoP.
EDIT: ooh I think force sheild, givbing a sheild bonus might: +4

Total AC: 29
with abitlity to bring it up to 35
at Lvl 8.

What can you come up with?

[Eldariel]

Dragonborn Dwarf Barbarian 1/X 3/Fist of the Forests 2/Deepwarden 2: Con to AC twice. Base Con 22, Rage adds 4 more (and -2). Level-ups add 2 more and item adds 2 more. That makes for Con 30 for 30 AC, although -2 from Rage lowers it back to 28. After that you get Mage Armor from a friendly caster/Eternal Wand/whatever (or Bracers of Armor +4), making it 32 with the Armor active. Ring of Deflection +1, Amulet of Nat. Armor +1 & Dusty Rose Ioun Stone all add +1 for a total of 11000, which we can afford provided we don't go for Bracers of Armor +4 (we can afford +3). Ring of Shielding would arguably work too.

Either way, we get:
+8 Con from Deepwarden
+8 Con from Fist of the Forests
+3 Armor from Bracers of Armor
+1 Deflection from Ring of Deflection
+1 Natural Armor from Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Insight from Dusty Rose Ioun Stone

for 30 base AC when nothing is active.

Buffed, we get:
+4 Armor from Mage Armor
+4 to Con from Rage, -2 to AC with net total of +2 AC
+4 Shield (we can Eternal Wand it) or +2 Ring of Force Shield (which arguably is a Wall of Force, not a Shield, and thus can be wielded without losing Con to AC)

for 37. If we don't buy the damn Bracers of Armor, our buffed AC will increase vastly, as we can get +4 Con item for +2 more to AC. Vow of Poverty for the same character ends up at similar numbers, but in the end the customizability of the items wins out. We could also benefit of Magic Vestment from a friendly caster (+2 enchantment to armor) and have a +1 Defending weapon instead of our armor/+4 Con item with Greater Magic Weaopn cast on it for +2 AC (or dualwield those for +4 to AC).


EDIT: I just realized you could just use Polymorph/Alter Self/Wildshape to do silly things. Like get Natural Armor and insane Con. Be base Outsider and Alter Self into Dwarven Ancestor for like +12 from just Natural Armor. Bleh, not doing the math right now but shapechanging wins obviously.

[Deastorm]

Interesting game, let me think on it a bit... I want to do something with a bladesinger/monk with genius kung fu, but I don't think I could pull this off by level 8... I don't think I've ever pulled off bladesinger before 7.

Agh, bladesinger holding a longsword and monk's ac bonus wouldn't work together anyway. Hmmm, back to the drawing board...

[BenTheJester]

Why level 8?

If you're gonna do a thought exercise, do it full scale.

As for level 20, I can imagine a Nymph would be good.

On top of my head a Radiant(template) Nymph with 4 sorcerer levels would get something like +19 charisma (18+5 book+5 levels+6 item+6 radiant+8 nymph)

Nymph grants cha to AC, and Ascetic Mage grants cha to AC as well. That's +38 untyped bonus to AC right there.

[Jergmo]

Bah to your size modifiers.

5 Rogue/3 Swashbuckler Elf

Str 10, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10

Combat Expertise, Daring Outlaw, Dodge

+1 bonus from Swashbuckler due to Daring Outlaw causing rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for a few things, 5 ranks in tumble equals +3 dodge instead of +2 for fighting defensively, +5 from combat expertise, +7 from +3 mithral chain shirt, +3 from bracers of armor +3, +3 from +2 buckler, +1 from ring of protection +1, +1 from amulet of natural armor +1, +1 from Dodge, +6 from Dex, 41 AC. :smallcool:

[Jergmo]

Dragonborn Dwarf Barbarian 1/X 3/Fist of the Forests 2/Deepwarden 2: Con to AC twice. Base Con 22, Rage adds 4 more (and -2). Level-ups add 2 more and item adds 2 more. That makes for Con 30 for 30 AC, although -2 from Rage lowers it back to 28. After that you get Mage Armor from a friendly caster/Eternal Wand/whatever (or Bracers of Armor +4), making it 32 with the Armor active. Ring of Deflection +1, Amulet of Nat. Armor +1 & Dusty Rose Ioun Stone all add +1 for a total of 11000, which we can afford provided we don't go for Bracers of Armor +4 (we can afford +3). Ring of Shielding would arguably work too.

Either way, we get:
+8 Con from Deepwarden
+8 Con from Fist of the Forests
+3 Armor from Bracers of Armor
+1 Deflection from Ring of Deflection
+1 Natural Armor from Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Insight from Dusty Rose Ioun Stone

for 30 base AC when nothing is active.

Buffed, we get:
+4 Armor from Mage Armor
+4 to Con from Rage, -2 to AC with net total of +2 AC
+4 Shield (we can Eternal Wand it) or +2 Ring of Force Shield (which arguably is a Wall of Force, not a Shield, and thus can be wielded without losing Con to AC)

for 37. If we don't buy the damn Bracers of Armor, our buffed AC will increase vastly, as we can get +4 Con item for +2 more to AC. Vow of Poverty for the same character ends up at similar numbers, but in the end the customizability of the items wins out. We could also benefit of Magic Vestment from a friendly caster (+2 enchantment to armor) and have a +1 Defending weapon instead of our armor/+4 Con item with Greater Magic Weaopn cast on it for +2 AC (or dualwield those for +4 to AC).


EDIT: I just realized you could just use Polymorph/Alter Self/Wildshape to do silly things. Like get Natural Armor and insane Con. Be base Outsider and Alter Self into Dwarven Ancestor for like +12 from just Natural Armor. Bleh, not doing the math right now but shapechanging wins obviously.

Cheesetastic. :smalleek: Also, I'm pretty sure this is just supposed to be what the character has, not including spell buffs.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The world record on the WotC boards is 302 buffed, which I think lasted for 2 combats, and 280-something unbuffed. It got purged a while back, but I copied it down somewhere, so I'll see if I can find it.

[woodenbandman]

Feral Anthropomorphic Bat Swordsage2/Cleric7. Transformation domain +! Halfweight Mithril Mechanus Gear, +1 Animated Tower Shield, +1 Defending weapon. Have a friendly cleric (or be a friendly cleric). Using LA buyoff, you have +1small size, +13 total wisdom bonus (with no buffs), +11 Armor, +5 shield, + 1 defending (2 with GMW), +6 natural armor, +2 dex for 59 entirely unbuffed. You could, instead of taking feral, just alter self yourself into something with stupid natural armor (what monstrous humanoids are there like that?).

EDIT: Well, nevermind then.

[Deastorm]

Bah to your size modifiers.

5 Rogue/3 Swashbuckler Elf

Str 10, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10

Combat Expertise, Daring Outlaw, Dodge

+1 bonus from Swashbuckler due to Daring Outlaw causing rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for a few things, 5 ranks in tumble equals +3 dodge instead of +2 for fighting defensively, +5 from combat expertise, +7 from +3 mithral chain shirt, +3 from bracers of armor +3, +3 from +2 buckler, +1 from ring of protection +1, +1 from amulet of natural armor +1, +1 from Dodge, +6 from Dex, 41 AC. :smallcool:


Armor bonuses don't stack, but otherwise I like this one a lot. Am I mistaken?

[Jergmo]

Armor bonuses don't stack, but otherwise I like this one a lot. Am I mistaken?

I thought bracers of armor were an exception?

[ColdSepp]

I thought bracers of armor were an exception?

They are not. The are an armor bonus, and do not stack with other armor bonuses.

[Jergmo]

They are not. The are an armor bonus, and do not stack with other armor bonuses.

Aw, well, gimme a break! I barely went outside of core at all, and that only gave me +1 AC. :smallfrown: 38 isn't bad.

[oxinabox]

Why level 8?

If you're gonna do a thought exercise, do it full scale.


lvl 8, because almost nio one starts a game at lvl 20.
but people do start games at lvl 8.
So you could create one of these characters.
just to make the dm cus'.
(i suggest bringing along a sane char sheet as well)

Cos well
AC 30+, at lvl 8 mean that almost nothing of appropriate can hit you without rolling a great.
BaB at 8=+8, str mod +4= +12 to hit.
so hits a AC thirty only 1 in 10 attacks

[Jergmo]

lvl 8, because almost nio one starts a game at lvl 20.
but people do start games at lvl 8.
So you could create one of these characters.
just to make the dm cus'.
(i suggest bringing along a sane char sheet as well)

Cos well
AC 30+, at lvl 8 mean that almost nothing of appropriate can hit you without rolling a great.
BaB at 8=+8, str mod +4= +12 to hit.
so hits a AC thirty only 1 in 10 attacks

You probably ought to clarify, level 8, or ECL 8? I assumed ECL 8.

[Talic]

At level 14, I can get arbitrarily high, 24 hours a day.

[Milskidasith]

At level 14, I can get arbitrarily high, 24 hours a day.

Are you using Pun Pun?

[oxinabox]

At level 14, I can get arbitrarily high, 24 hours a day.
At lvl 6, PunPun can also have arbitairy high, so?
(or maybe truely infinite, i'll check latter)

[Eldariel]

At lvl 6, PunPun can also have arbitairy high, so?
(or maybe truely infinite, i'll check latter)

A few loops exist for infinite stats at level 1 (Pun-Pun loop can be done level 1). Bleh. I don't like.


Also, Jergmo, your attempt is quite decent but when we look at it, ~7-8 of it comes from defensive fighting, dodge and combat expertise, things that can really be added to any of these builds so accounting for them seems to be unwise given that it just pumps the overall number up. This would also apply to stuff like Law Devotion (or Devotions in general) and such. I guess you could make a build that gets a fckton of feats and then picks up all manners of feat-based AC bonuses though, in which case they'd be relevant as that particular build can get more out of them than the average build.


Woody: Isn't that the wrong level? Looks like a level 10 to me. Also, I don't remember any awesome Monstrous Humanoids; Humanoids have Trogdolyte and Outsiders have Dwarven Ancestors, but Monstrous Humanoids are tough due to highish HD on average.

[Jergmo]

Also, Jergmo, your attempt is quite decent but when we look at it, ~7-8 of it comes from defensive fighting, dodge and combat expertise, things that can really be added to any of these builds so accounting for them seems to be unwise given that it just pumps the overall number up.

Do I at least get points for staying 95% core? >_>

[Eldariel]

Do I at least get points for staying 95% core? >_>

In my eyes, the remaining 5% is something of a problem; I'm sure you'd get points for a Core-only build but bleh. You'd probably get more points for that though if the thread was about Core-only builds :smalltongue:

[Jergmo]

In my eyes, the remaining 5% is something of a problem; I'm sure you'd get points for a Core-only build but bleh. You'd probably get more points for that though if the thread was about Core-only builds :smalltongue:

Bah, the non-core stuff only adds +1 Dodge anyhow. :smalltongue:

[Yukitsu]

Are you using Pun Pun?

Probably con to AC using a shambling mound for supposedly infinite con, though I'd argue that stacking of stat buffs doesn't work that way.

[Alleine]

Hmm...

Halfling Psion

VoP + Vow of Nonviolence(IIRC) Nets you an assorted +14 by 8th level.
Augment Force Screen for a +5 shield bonus, augmented thicken skin, and augmented compression(using expanded knowledge)

dex 18 + 2 racial + 2 level + 2 enhancement +4 compression = 28

10
+9 dex
+8 exalted Armor bonus(VoP+Peace)
+3 Natural(VoP+Peace)
+3 Deflection(VoP+Peace)
+5 shield(Force Screen)
+3 enhancement(Thicken Skin)
+3 size(Compression)

Base: 32
Buffed Total: 44

Unfortunately that isn't for very long, and it relies on buffs. Compression won't last, and force screen won't last longer than one battle, most likely. If you bring in Metamorphosis, then you can hit Fine size and rely on the dex of your new form. There are probably some feats out there that could boost AC a little, and you could use some other feats to increase augmentation. The vows are for ease of use, I didn't feel like looking into more than a few books.

[Eldariel]

Hm, Alter Self into Dwarf Ancestor nets +18 Natural Armor. Dragonborn Dwarf Battle Sorcerer 4/Barbarian 1/Fist of the Forests 1/Deepwarden 2 can get the previous ones and 18 on top of it, losing 1 point to the Amulet for 54. Of course, if we slipped Monk's Belt into his list and he happened to have 18 Wis, that might add some more (depending on how you rule the stacking of FoF's and Monk's AC bonuses). Polymorph would also get you the base 28 Con, which is nice. But meh, something like that. Spells rock.

Charisma stack should be doable too; Ascetic Mage for 1xCha, Arcane Duelist 2 for 2xCha and maybe Shapechange (scrolled) for 3xCha. Then just pump out the Cha and get some sick numbers.

[Jergmo]

Hm, Alter Self into Dwarf Ancestor nets +18 Natural Armor. Dragonborn Dwarf Battle Sorcerer 4/Barbarian 1/Fist of the Forests 1/Deepwarden 2 can get the previous ones and 18 on top of it, losing 1 point to the Amulet for 54. Of course, if we slipped Monk's Belt into his list and he happened to have 18 Wis, that might add some more (depending on how you rule the stacking of FoF's and Monk's AC bonuses). Polymorph would also get you the base 28 Con, which is nice. But meh, something like that. Spells rock.

Charisma stack should be doable too; Ascetic Mage for 1xCha, Arcane Duelist 2 for 2xCha and maybe Shapechange (scrolled) for 3xCha. Then just pump out the Cha and get some sick numbers.

Aren't you only able to Alter Self into a creature of the same type as you?

[Eldariel]

Aren't you only able to Alter Self into a creature of the same type as you?

Yeah, pick the Otherworldly-feat to be an Outsider.

[Jack Zander]

Without cheese, and as an actual character I have played before, allow me to introduce Perry Fenserson in his level 8 form:

Perry Fenserson
Human Rogue Level 8
28 point buy
Str 10
Dex 20 (+1 at levels 4 and 8 / Gloves of Dexterity +2)
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 14

HP: 38 (6 at first level + 3.5x7 levels +8 Constitution)

Fortitude +5 = 2 Base +1 Constitution +2 Resistance
Reflex +13 = 6 Base +5 Dexterity +2 Resistance
Will +3 = 2 Base -1 Wisdom +2 Resistance

Initiative +5 = +5 Dexterity

Skills:
Balance +18 = 11 Ranks +5 Dexterity +2 Synergy
Bluff +16 = 11 Ranks +2 Charisma +3 Skill Focus
Climb +11 = 11 Ranks +0 Strength
Diplomacy +17 = 11 Ranks +2 Charisma +4 Synergy
Escape Artist +16 = 11 Ranks +5 Dexterity
Jump +13 = 11 Ranks +0 Strength +2 Synergy
Search +13 = 11 Ranks +2 Intelligence
Sense Motive +10 = 11 Ranks -1 Wisdom
Swim +11 = 11 Ranks +0 Strength
Tumble +18 = 11 Ranks +5 Dexterity +2 Synergy
Use Magic Device +13 = 11 Ranks +2 Charisma

Feats:
Combat Expertise (Level 1)
Improved Feint (Human)
Weapon Finesse (Level 3)
Skill Focus: Bluff (Level 6)

Class Features:
Trapfinding
Sneak Attack +4d6
Evasion
Trapsense +2
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge

Equipment:
+1 Rapier (2,320 gp)
+2 Mithral Chain Shirt (5,100 gp)
+2 Buckler (4,165 gp)
Masterwork Hand Crossbow (400 gp)
10 Crossbow Bolts (1 gp)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000 gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2,000 gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000 gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 gp)
Misc. Expendable Magic Items (up to 3,014 gp)
Total = 27,000 gp

Single Attack +3 = +6 BAB +5 Dexterity +1 Magic -4 Fighting Defensively -5 Combat Expertise

AC 34 = 10 Base +5 Dexterity +6 Armor +3 Buckler +1 Natural +1 Deflection +3 Dodge (fighting defensively with 5 ranks in tumble) +5 Dodge (combat expertise)

Tactics:
Perry Fenserson is a fencer. As such he likes to fight opponents 1 on 1, but if he has an ally he will prefer to flank. Rather than taking a Full Attack that will never hit (due to his Super Ultra Defense Mode penalties to attack) he always feints as a move action, then attacks his flat-footed foe. Even then, most of his attacks are misses, but he is patient and confident that he will hit his enemy for 5d6+1 damage enough times before he is hit even once. Of course, he doesn't always defense boost for full when he doesn't need it, allowing him to hit a little more often that way.

I will be the first to admit, he is not optimized in any way, but he sure was a hella lot of fun to play (Mostly on the DM's turn as he rolled multiple misses at me each time and sighed. Then he discovered Will Saves and the rest of the party had to fight Perry, who almost took them out before the enchantment wore off).

And his background story:
Like all good stories, the tale of Perry Fenserson has a humble beginning. Perry was born into the Fenserson clan at age 0. His family hailed from a long line of carpenters. Not ordinary, peasant work, but masterwork carpentry. His father, Pyrite Fenserson knew that his family was destined for greatness, and brought up young Perry to believe so as well. At age 14, Pyrite showed his son a masterwork saber which he had been hiding under the floorboards until he suddenly remembered it one evening when Perry was not hungry and had begun to pretend sword fight his food with his knife. His mother, Nadia Fenserson, was disturbed by this and left the room crying. Pyrite told his son that this legendary rapier had been passed down in the Fenserson family for generations.

Ages ago their ancestors were feared and respected fencers, who guarded royalty and protected merchant ships from the Evil Dread Pirate Roberts. As time passed, only one known great fencer lived on, and bore himself a single child (don't ask how it's possible). This child was referred to as the fencer's son, or Fencerson. Fencerson did not like his father much, and abandoned all his sword fighting ways to become a much more humble carpenter. One day, a messenger came to Fencerson's house and informed him that his father was dead. The Evil Dread Pirate Roberts killed him in an epic battle at sea. Fortunately, his saber was saved and returned to a non-tearful Fencerson. Fencerson did not like the association his family had, and so changed the spelling of their name to Fenserson. Fencerson hid the saber under his floorboards, but told his father's tale to his offspring, who told the tale to their children and so on down the line. Eventually they mastered the art of hammering nails into wood somewhere in the family tree there.

Pyrite told young Perry that he wasn't supposed to give him that rapier until he was yet another year of age, but Pyrite could wait no longer. He felt it was his destiny to slay the Evil Dread Pirate Roberts and avenge the father of Fencerson Fenserson. Perry asked his father, "Shouldn't the Evil Dread Pirate Roberts be dead by now?" to which Pyrite explained, "The Evil Dread Pirate Roberts is immortal. He will not die until slain by a Fenserson!" Perry's eyes could only look in awe as his father left the house right then and there giving his last words of advice, "Remember son, the cake is a lie."

Nadia begged Perry not to follow his fool father, but Perry refused, and left his life of carpentry behind him for one of adventure and excitement. Thus ended the masterwork houses produced by the Fenserson family. Now human lands are tortured by rotted houses, weak against fire (150% damage). For 7 years Perry wandered the kingdom, helping where he could and often stealing from the rich and giving to the poor (and what do you know, Perry was quite poor). Recently, he heard rumors of his father being sighted near King's Reach. What a waste of a town, miles beyond civilization. How was he supposed to make money there? The baron couldn't be rich off of taxes in that crap heap village. In any case, he headed toward King's Reach in search of his father or adventure.

[SethFahad]

Dragonborn Dwarf Barbarian 1/X 3/Fist of the Forests 2/Deepwarden 2: Con to AC twice. Base Con 22, Rage adds 4 more (and -2). Level-ups add 2 more and item adds 2 more. That makes for Con 30 for 30 AC, although -2 from Rage lowers it back to 28. After that you get Mage Armor from a friendly caster/Eternal Wand/whatever (or Bracers of Armor +4), making it 32 with the Armor active. Ring of Deflection +1, Amulet of Nat. Armor +1 & Dusty Rose Ioun Stone all add +1 for a total of 11000, which we can afford provided we don't go for Bracers of Armor +4 (we can afford +3). Ring of Shielding would arguably work too.

Either way, we get:
+8 Con from Deepwarden
+8 Con from Fist of the Forests
+3 Armor from Bracers of Armor
+1 Deflection from Ring of Deflection
+1 Natural Armor from Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Insight from Dusty Rose Ioun Stone


You can't add the same ability bonus twice. You can add different ones, but not the same more than once.

[herrhauptmann]

Dragonborn Dwarf Barbarian 1/X 3/Fist of the Forests 2/Deepwarden 2: Con to AC twice. Base Con 22, Rage adds 4 more (and -2). Level-ups add 2 more and item adds 2 more. That makes for Con 30 for 30 AC, although -2 from Rage lowers it back to 28. After that you get Mage Armor from a friendly caster/Eternal Wand/whatever (or Bracers of Armor +4), making it 32 with the Armor active. Ring of Deflection +1, Amulet of Nat. Armor +1 & Dusty Rose Ioun Stone all add +1 for a total of 11000, which we can afford provided we don't go for Bracers of Armor +4 (we can afford +3). Ring of Shielding would arguably work too.

Either way, we get:
+8 Con from Deepwarden
+8 Con from Fist of the Forests
+3 Armor from Bracers of Armor
+1 Deflection from Ring of Deflection
+1 Natural Armor from Amulet of Natural Armor
+1 Insight from Dusty Rose Ioun Stone

for 30 base AC when nothing is active.

Buffed, we get:
+4 Armor from Mage Armor
+4 to Con from Rage, -2 to AC with net total of +2 AC
+4 Shield (we can Eternal Wand it) or +2 Ring of Force Shield (which arguably is a Wall of Force, not a Shield, and thus can be wielded without losing Con to AC)

for 37. If we don't buy the damn Bracers of Armor, our buffed AC will increase vastly, as we can get +4 Con item for +2 more to AC. Vow of Poverty for the same character ends up at similar numbers, but in the end the customizability of the items wins out. We could also benefit of Magic Vestment from a friendly caster (+2 enchantment to armor) and have a +1 Defending weapon instead of our armor/+4 Con item with Greater Magic Weaopn cast on it for +2 AC (or dualwield those for +4 to AC).


EDIT: I just realized you could just use Polymorph/Alter Self/Wildshape to do silly things. Like get Natural Armor and insane Con. Be base Outsider and Alter Self into Dwarven Ancestor for like +12 from just Natural Armor. Bleh, not doing the math right now but shapechanging wins obviously.

Dwarf paragon will give you another +2 con, for an extra +2 AC (since you get con to AC twice)

[sofawall]

You can't add the same ability bonus twice. You can add different ones, but not the same more than once.

Untyped bonuses from different sources. They stack, according to every relevant rule ever published. Unless you make up rules, con to ac twice is perfectly valid.

Seriously, this comes up on Gleemax every week. The con to ac twice thing, not the highest ac at ecl 8 thing.

[Grynning]

You can't add the same ability bonus twice. You can add different ones, but not the same more than once.

The classes do not add the actual ability bonus. They each add an untyped bonus EQUAL to the Con bonus. Therefore they do in fact stack by RAW.

Note that other class features specify when they do not stack (such as the Crusader's Cha to saves explicitly stating it doesn't stack with Paladin Divine Grace). FotF and Deepwarden have no such caveat.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[SethFahad]

Wha... you mean a Monk/Ninja/Duelist x/Invisible blade x /fist of the forest/deepwarden will take twice his Wis bonus, twice his Con bonus, and twice his Int bonus to AC???? :smalleek:

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Yeah, pick the Otherworldly-feat to be an Outsider.

But wouldn't that require elf?

[Grynning]

Wha... you mean a Monk/Ninja/Duelist x/Invisible blade x /fist of the forest/deepwarden will take twice his Wis bonus, twice his Con bonus, and twice his Int bonus to AC???? :smalleek:

No. The monk and ninja bonuses explicitly do not stack (they are effectively the same class feature) and it says so in the ninja's description. Likewise, the Duelist and Invisible Blade features are adding the Ability bonus (making it typed) and thus they would not stack.

Those two classes probably shouldn't stack by RAI, but discussions on boards are by RAW. So the FotF/Deepwarden combo works. Other similar things do not because of the way they are written.

Remember, 3.5 is not balanced, or consistent. Ever.

Edit: Correction to previous statement: Deepwarden does in fact add the typed Ability bonus to AC (instead of Dex mod). Fist of the Forest is the only one that is untyped.

[SethFahad]

ok-ok, english is not my native language, plus I'm a self learner...so maybe I'm misinterpreting things.
I'm getting a little off topic here but I want to understand this...
Rules Governing Bonuses by RAW

The basic rule to remember when combining two or more bonuses is this: two or more bonuses of different type stack, and two or more bonuses of the same type overlap. In general, a bonus's name indicates its type. A bonus with no name has no type and it stacks with any other bonus, but not with itself.

FotF

AC Bonus (Ex): While unarmored, you gain a bonus to your Armor Class equal to your Constitution bonus (if any). See the monk class feature (PH 40).

DeepW

Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a deepwarden know how to use his strenghts to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the characters Constitution bonus is higher.

Can you please clarify to me what exactly do the RAW mean when it says "Unnamed Bonus"?

Sorry for asking this, but a need to make it clear to myself. :smallfrown:

[Grynning]

FotF
AC Bonus (Ex): While unarmored, you gain a bonus to your Armor Class equal to your Constitution bonus (if any). See the monk class feature (PH 40).

The FotF bonus is not typed. It is just "a bonus." The numerical value is equal to your Con bonus, but it is not the same bonus.

Deepwarden
Stone Warden (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a deepwarden know how to use his strenghts to compensate for his weaknesses. He adds his Constitution bonus to AC instead of his Dexterity, if the characters Constitution bonus is higher.

The Deepwarden bonus is typed, it is "his Constitution bonus." If the FotF also said "adds their Constitution bonus" it would not stack. But it adds an untyped bonus as pointed out above, so they do.

[Talic]

Are you using Pun Pun?

No.

Dwarf
Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 7 / Deepwarden 2.

Con to AC instead of Dex. Shift to Shambling strider. Pick up dagger with least augment crystal of energy assault. Proceed to full attack yourself on touch attacks for 1 electricity damage. That gets prevented, and instead the Strider gains +1d4 Con, which increases HP, skills, fort saves, and AC (including Touch AC). Get Steadfast Determination, it also boosts will.

At level 8, you could be a WS Ranger 5/MoMF 3, which, when wearing Extreme Plate with the Wilding enchant, will give you a +10 or so armor. Add in decent dex, natural armor, and the like, and you can be sitting in the 30+ range without difficulty.

[Zemro]

While not as cheese-tastic as some of the present builds here, nor up the the same limits, I find I've done very well with the character I'm currently playing in an Internet game. I stopped advancing his AC after level seven, it's actually really boring not being hit, but I'm presenting his current (and level 8) stats here because they're my only, and appropriate, reference.

While he's a little above point-buy (we rolled) he could easily take hits to his mental stats to make up for it without sacrificing mechanical effectiveness. Alternatively, his Con, he really doesn't need that many hit points I suppose...

Edar Taaloc - Dragon Shaman (Copper) 8

Str: 16
Dex: 16 (14 Base)
Con: 21 (18 Base +2 Lvl, +1 Enhancement)
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

HP: 106
AC: 30 (+3 Dex, +10 Armour, +5 Shield, +1 Natural, +1 Deflection)
Touch: 19
Flat-footed: 27

Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Leap of the Heavens (Edar likes jumping)
Shield Specialization (Heavy)
Shield Ward
Skill Focus (Bluff) (Dragon Shaman Bonus)
Skill Focus (Jump) (Dragon Shaman Bonus)

Relevant Items:
+2 Mithral Fullplate (+10 Armour)
+2 Gloves of Dexterity
+2 Heavy Darkwood Shield (+5 Shield)
Clothes enchanted with Alter Self
+1 Ring of Protection

So yeah, while not quite to the OP's specifications, I thought it'd be nice to share as it's an actual character instead of a theoretical one.

[Thespianus]

AC: 30 (+3 Dex, +10 Armour, +5 Shield, +1 Natural, +1 Deflection)
Touch: 19
Flat-footed: 27


Maybe I'm not thinking straight, but how do you get his Touch AC to be 19? It seems to me it should be 15 (10+Dex+Natural+Deflection), right?

[ericgrau]

The general method is armor enhancement bonus, shield enhancement bonus, dusty rose prism ioun stone, amulet of natural armor and ring of protection. By this method 25 AC at level 8 is pretty easy with just some cheap +1's and +2's.

Monks tend to have less AC when using a balanced build, but for peak AC in a level 20 theoretical build an unarmored character with a monk's belt is the best way to go. First we start with a race with a lot of wis, dex and natural armor, then pile on items from there:
10 Base
27 Astra Deva Angel, +15 natural armor, +6 dex, +6 wisdom (elite array, high stats in wis & dex)
1 monk's belt
8 bracers of armor
3 periapt of wisdom
3 gloves of dexterity
5 ring of protection
5 amulet of natural armor
1 dusty rose prism ioun stone
1 dodge feat
1 two weapon defense feat
5 combat expertise
5 defending weapon (if you allow the cheese then get 10 with 2 weapons)
3 fighting defensively with tumble
= 75 AC (ECL 20)

You can add another 7 with improved combat expertise since an astral deva angel has +12 BAB. Now I know I'm missing something, since last I remember around 90 was do-able including the double defending weapon cheese, so that'd be 85 without.

As for ECL 8 (27,000 gp by wbl), the method is similar:
Half-dragon Lizardfolk (ECL 3) fighter 2
10 base
9 natural armor
12 full plate +3, including dex bonus (10650gp)
6 tower shield +2 (~4500gp)
1 ring of protection (2000gp)
1 amulet of natural armor (2000gp)
1 dusty rose prism ioun stone (5000gp)
1 dodge feat
3 combat expertise (only +3 BAB)
2 improved natural armor x 2
2 fighting defensively
= 48 AC (ECL 8)

I don't remember a good ECL 8 race for natural armor, so lizardfolk had to do. I think this could be improved. EDIT: Oh and this is 100% core, so there Jergmo :-P. And I'm not saying someone shouldn't inject some non-core stuff to get this even higher.

[MichielHagen]

Bah to your size modifiers.

5 Rogue/3 Swashbuckler Elf

Str 10, Dex 22, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10

Combat Expertise, Daring Outlaw, Dodge

+1 bonus from Swashbuckler due to Daring Outlaw causing rogue and swashbuckler levels to stack for a few things, 5 ranks in tumble equals +3 dodge instead of +2 for fighting defensively, +5 from combat expertise, +7 from +3 mithral chain shirt, +3 from bracers of armor +3, +3 from +2 buckler, +1 from ring of protection +1, +1 from amulet of natural armor +1, +1 from Dodge, +6 from Dex, 41 AC. :smallcool:

Wouldn't a halfling get another +1 (and no XP-penalty)? or am i missing something why you need to be an elf?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll assume LA Buyoff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) is permitted and you're working with 28K XP. This build is mostly for tankyness, versatility, and usefulness:

Race: Feral Whisper Gnome Mineral Warrior (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e): +0 LA at -9,000 XP
Feral is inherited, so he's at +1 LA until his third class level, at which he spends 3,000 XP to buy it off. He then gains Mineral Warrior, an acquired template, and at his sixth class level he spends 6,000 XP to buy it off. He begins play with 19,000 XP at ECL 6 with a +0 LA.

Str +4, Dex +0, Con +8, Int -6, Wis +0, Cha -4, small size, +9 natural armor, 40 ft. land speed, 20 ft. burrow speed, DR 8/Adamantine, Fast Healing 3 (varies), 2 claws (1d6), Improved Grab, Pounce, and all the standard Whisper Gnome goodies.

Classes: Dragonfire Adept 6: +2 natural armor, Dragontouched feat at 1st
Flaws: Shaky and Noncombatant
Feats: Dragon Wings, Reinforced Wings, Heavyweight Wings, Entangling Exhalation, Improved Dragon Wings
Gear: +2 Mithral Full Plate, +2 Tower Shield, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, a little over 4,000 GP remaining for other gear
AC:
+1 size (small)
+3 dex
+10 armor (+2 Mithral Full Plate)
+6 shield (+2 Tower Shield)
+12 natural (+9 race, +2 class, +1 Enhancement)
+1 deflection (Ring of Protection)
= 43 AC, Touch 15, Flat-Footed 40

Edit: Switch the race to Kobold, Mineral Warrior first, then White Dragonspawn: ECL is the same, Str -2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2, +11 natural armor, DR 8/Adamantine, 30 ft. land speed, 15 ft. burrow speed, 60 ft. fly speed (average), 1st level Sorcerer spellcasting, Kobold traits, Dragonspawn traits

Still Dragonfire Adept 6: +2 natural armor
Flaws: Shaky and Noncombatant
Feats: Entangling Exhalation, Improved Natural Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalArmor) x2, Draconic Reservoir (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), Reinforced Wings
Gear: +2 Mithral Full Plate, +2 Tower Shield, Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, a little over 4,000 GP remaining for other gear
Special: Draconic Rite of Passage, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage
AC:
+1 size (small)
+3 dex
+10 armor (+2 Mithral Full Plate)
+6 shield (+2 Tower Shield)
+16 natural (+11 race, +2 class, +1 Enhancement, +2 feat)
+1 deflection (Ring of Protection)
= 47 AC, Touch 15, Flat-Footed 44

[Eldariel]

You can't add the same ability bonus twice. You can add different ones, but not the same more than once.

In this specific case, the two work out. Fist of the Forests adds Con to AC while Deepwarden replaces your Dex to AC with Con to AC.

[WhiteHarness]

Knight 8 (PHBII)

10-Base 10
10-Masterwork Reinforced Mithril Full plate+1 (Dragon Magazine #358)
3-Dexterity Bonus permissible with Mithril full plate
3-Large shield+1
2-Amulet of Natural Armour+1
2-Ring of Protection+1
1-Heavy Armour Optimization Feat (Races of Stone)
1-Greater Heavy Armour Optimization Feat (RoS)
1-Shield Specialization Feat (PHBII)
1-Dodge Feat
1-Knight's Shield Block Class Ability (PHBII)
Total: AC 35

I'm sure that this could be improved with certain racial templates and multiclass features...

[theMycon]

Just in case anyone doubts the utility of this-
I have a moderately high AC'd monk. I could pretty easily get it about ten points higher, but that'd be expensive & ridiculous. He also has blink on more or less constantly (with two feats so he can get through this), and SR 25.

Blink has, in the past 10 sessions, mattered precisely once, in halving the damage of an area spell I botched the reflex on- the DM has never failed a percentile roll. SR has never mattered- there was one mass-cure-moderate I didn't get, but I was only down by some single-digit amount of HP anyway.

AC has, however, avoided a couple dozen attacks, convinced monsters to attack someone else at least a hundred times, and has (in two or three cases) resulted in an enemy simply deciding to walk away as I ignored him and flurried something bigger. One of these walk aways also resulted in my one successful stunning fist of the session, from a "just for show" AoO.

[Curmudgeon]

The FotF bonus is not typed. It is just "a bonus." The numerical value is equal to your Con bonus, but it is not the same bonus. It's not just untyped; it's also a named source, in this case Stone Warden.

The Deepwarden bonus is typed, it is "his Constitution bonus." Incorrect. That's not one of the listed bonus types. It's untyped, and also named: AC Bonus. This will stack with the FotF bonus because it's untyped and from a different source. It will not stack with the Swordsage's AC Bonus; despite having different properties (WIS instead of CON to AC), the source is the same because it has the same name.
Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk, swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). The modifiers in this case are to the basic combat check of attack vs. AC (on the AC side, naturally). But they are not on the list of typed modifiers:
Ability Modifier
Alchemical Bonus
Armor Bonus
Competence Modifier
Deflection Bonus
Dodge Bonus
Enhancement Bonus
Insight Bonus
Luck Modifier
Morale Modifier
Natural Armor Bonus
Profane Modifier
Racial bonus
Resistance Bonus
Sacred Modifier
Shield Bonus
Size Modifier If it's not one of these, it's untyped.

[Milskidasith]

Y'know, couldn't a few of these builds get higher bonuses by adding in some +1 defending armor spikes/shield spikes/actual weapons enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon? I mean, that's a pretty decent bonus.

[Zemro]

Maybe I'm not thinking straight, but how do you get his Touch AC to be 19? It seems to me it should be 15 (10+Dex+Natural+Deflection), right?

The Shield Ward feat adds your Shield Bonus to your touch AC, along with a few other things, and natural armour doesn't count, so it breaks down to (10 +3 Dex +5 Shield +1 Deflection) for a total of 19.

[sofawall]

Y'know, couldn't a few of these builds get higher bonuses by adding in some +1 defending armor spikes/shield spikes/actual weapons enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon? I mean, that's a pretty decent bonus.

People tend not to use things that can easily be added to any build. Sure, you can get it higher, maybe 20 higher, but so can that other build over there, so you aren't really ahead anything.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Y'know, couldn't a few of these builds get higher bonuses by adding in some +1 defending armor spikes/shield spikes/actual weapons enchanted with Greater Magic Weapon? I mean, that's a pretty decent bonus.You know, I was hoping to get through one AC thread without this coming up. DEFENDING DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

If you run by RAI, multiple Defending weapons should not stack. Making them do so is just stupid and leads to people grabbing 14 different weapons, all defending, getting Chained GMW, and running with an AC in the mid obscene while Shock Trooper charging. You get one Defending weapon.

However, the RAW is the law in these discussions, and I prefer that anyways. By RAW, Defending only works on a sword. It transfers the sword's enhancement bonus. Armor Spikes and Spiked Shields are not swords. You get 2 Defending swords if you TWF, nothing else.

[Milskidasith]

If you go by RAW that strictly, most classes are locked into being either one gender or both at the same time because of how it refers to them as a he or a she. Defending starts off by saying "a weapon", so I don't see why you would consider it a sword only enchantment.

As for RAI.... I dunno, it specifically says it stacks with all other bonuses, and other defending bonuses seem like they would apply.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If you go by RAW that strictly, most classes are locked into being either one gender or both at the same time because of how it refers to them as a he or a she. Defending starts off by saying "a weapon", so I don't see why you would consider it a sword only enchantment.All other enhancements say 'weapon' specifically. Defending is the only one that says sword. All I'm saying is it takes a strict reading of RAW to go from 'stacks with all others' to 'stacks with itself', and if you do that, I'll use the same level of RAW on you.

Bonuses from the same source do not stack. You can't get much more of the same source than the same magic effect.

[Yukitsu]

Dwarf
Wildshape Ranger 5 / MoMF 7 / Deepwarden 2.

Con to AC instead of Dex. Shift to Shambling strider. Pick up dagger with least augment crystal of energy assault. Proceed to full attack yourself on touch attacks for 1 electricity damage. That gets prevented, and instead the Strider gains +1d4 Con, which increases HP, skills, fort saves, and AC (including Touch AC). Get Steadfast Determination, it also boosts will.


Knew it. Still have no idea why people think you can stack the d4 con bonus as opposed to overlapping it, as it's the same type bonus from the same source.

[JerryMcJerrison]

Why's it so cold in here?

*messes with thermostat*

DAG BURN KIDS are always messin' with the air conditioner! I'd give 'em a wallop with me cane, I would, but I c'never seem to hit 'em...

[SoD]

How high can you get your AC?

I think...26 at level one. Without magic items.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I think...26 at level one. Without magic items.Kobold with a tower shield and the best armor he can buy with his starting wealth?

[Eldariel]

I think...26 at level one. Without magic items.

How do you get past 25? Best I can think of is Adamantine Body Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Warforged with Tower Shield and using the Frenzy for 25 (fighting with the natural Slam-attack for 1d4+9 damage). I guess you can fight defensively for +2 but that doesn't really count.

Kobold Monk with VoP and two 18s only gets 25 as well. Just can't see a way to get higher without using flaws (ok, Kobold VoP Monk already uses a Flaw just to get VoP...) or some higher level spell effects/spells they can't cast themselves (VoP is unnecessary with Mage Armor for example and Reduce Person would add 2 to the AC).


EDIT: ...wait, the heck, VoP isn't Armor-bonus, but some random Exalted-****? Wow. Well, in that case, level 1 Human Wizard with 18 Dex (Spell Component Pouch is ok by VoP) with at least 12 Int and specialization can go Mage Armor > Shield > Reduce Person for 28 for a duration. Precocious Apprentice: Alter Self could also do a number thanks to Natural Armor...though 1 HD forms don't seem to go over 4 NA (Bladeling).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

How do you get past 25? Best I can think of is Adamantine Body Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Warforged with Tower Shield and using the Frenzy for 25 (fighting with the natural Slam-attack for 1d4+9 damage). I guess you can fight defensively for +2 but that doesn't really count.

Kobold Monk with VoP and two 18s only gets 25 as well. Just can't see a way to get higher without using flaws (ok, Kobold VoP Monk already uses a Flaw just to get VoP...) or some higher level spell effects/spells they can't cast themselves (VoP is unnecessary with Mage Armor for example and Reduce Person would add 2 to the AC).Kobolds can spend 100 GP/1 HP for a 1st level spell as a once/day SLA.

Alternatively, Kobold Aristocrat with a Tower Shield, Chainmail Armor, and Imp Nat Armorx3(flaws). Or the afore-mentioned Draconic Rite.

[Darrin]

I think...26 at level one. Without magic items.

Hengeyokai/Sparrow (Oriental Adventures), Carmendine Monk Level 1, Int 18. AC = 10 + 6 Dex + 8 Size + 4 Int = 28.

VoP would take that up to... 32?

[Alleine]

EDIT: ...wait, the heck, VoP isn't Armor-bonus, but some random Exalted-****?

Yeah, but it explicitly states it doesn't stack with an armor bonus. Last sentence of the AC Bonus ability. If you can snag Vow of Peace though, the bonuses from it do stack with VoP.

[Thespianus]

The Shield Ward feat adds your Shield Bonus to your touch AC, along with a few other things, and natural armour doesn't count, so it breaks down to (10 +3 Dex +5 Shield +1 Deflection) for a total of 19.
Ok, thanks. :)

[Talic]

Knew it. Still have no idea why people think you can stack the d4 con bonus as opposed to overlapping it, as it's the same type bonus from the same source.


Immunity to Electricity (Ex)

Shamblers take no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a shambler temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution. The shambler loses these points at the rate of 1 per hour.

Because it's not a bonus, just as nightsticks granting Extra Turning aren't a bonus. Bonus is a reserved word. Things are bonuses if, and only if, they state that they are.

It doesn't even use buff notation (+X to whatever), instead opting with a style more similar to Nightstick (grants X).

[Captain Alien]

I got a 41. 36 (touch), and 28 (flatfooted).

A pixie Psi-Warrior 3/Monk 1 can have these:

Dex 26 (18 plus racial bonuses)
Sab 24 (18, plus racial bonus, plus two points at levels 4 and 8)
More than 8 power points.
A cat's grace potion
A owl's wisdom potion
The compression power
Force screen power
A +1 natural armor

The pixie compresses herself. She drinks both potions. She turns into a diminutive creature with a +4 to Dex, using 8 power points and Compression. Her total: Dex 34, Wis 26

AC= 10 + 12 (Dex) + 9 (Wis) + 4 (Diminutive) + 1 (N. Armor) + 4 (Force screen shield) + 1 (Pixie's bonus feat Dodge)= 41

Useless in combat, weird build, but unbeatable.

EDIT:Shield Ward feat can improve touch AC, but it is unneccesary.

[elonin]

I've had a Githzari scout who had a high ac in the mid levels (15 or so) but much of this is doable at level 8.

this char had stats that focused on dex and wis with a decent stat in con (the rest were dump stats)

4 for inertial armor, + 4 or more from each dex and wis modifiers (githzari have a +6 dex mod and +2 wisdom mod) using a monk's belt, ring of protection of +?

At 15th level using this model I acheived an ac in the low 40's.

[Zergrusheddie]

My Beguiler has the highest chance not to be hit in the party, though it is not AC. We were attacked by a Golem thing that had a +45 to hit, but only hit one time (weird module thingie). I ended up tanking him because he was 'programmed' to attack whatever entered the room first until it was dead. Being the Beguiler, I was at the front of the line looking for traps.

Greater Mirror image gives 8 Images and Displacement gives 50% miss chance. This meant that he only had a 5.5% chance to hit me no matter what he rolled. Considering his +45 to hit, I was effectively running at an AC of ~65. Oddly, he was alive for 5 rounds and hit me twice. :smallannoyed:

The Radiant Nymph Monk16/Sorcerer4 can have a pretty good AC:
Dex: 18 Base + 6 Item + 4 Book + 4 Template = 32
Cha: 18 Base + 6 Item + 5 Book + 6 Template + 5 levels = 40

Being a Nymph, that is +15 Deflection. Having the Ascetic Monk feat means another +15 untyped. Dex grants +11.

Sorcerer and Monk Level Stack for giving AC, so that +4. Alter Self into a Crucian (MiniHB) gives +8 Natural Armor. Bracers of Armor gives +8. Amulet of Natural Armor gives +5. Boots of Haste give a +1 Dodge bonus. Defending Weapon gives another +4

So, 15 + 15 + 11 + 4 + 8 + 8 +5 + 1 + 10 + 4 = 81.

AC of 81 and has a Touch of 68 if you rule that Bracers of Armor also stop Touch Attacks because it uses Mage Armor; 81/60 otherwise.

Total cost is 495,500 gold.

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

[Talic]

Ghost/Evolved Undead can do well in Gestalt.

Paladin 5 / Monk 2/ Sorceror 1 (Ascetic Monk) / Pious Templar 10 / XXX 2
Human Ghost 8 / Evolved Undead 12

18 Base Cha
+5 Levels
+5 Inherent (Tome of Leadership and Influence)
+4 Racial (Ghost)
+24 Racial (Evolved Undead)
+6 Enhancement (Cloak of Charisma)
=62 Cha, or a +26 Modifier.

Ascetic Monk gives +26 untyped bonus to AC
Ghost gives a +26 deflection bonus to AC
Shield +5 with Shield Ward feat gives +8 AC (+1 for qualifying feat for Shield Ward)
Divine Shield can, in a pinch, add another +26.
Say a +5 Dex modifier (20 Dex)

Now: 10 + 5 (Dex) + 8 (Shield) + 26 (Deflection) + 26 (Untyped) = 75 AC Base.

With Divine Shield? 101 AC. This means it can Shock Trooper its AC for 20, and STILL only be hit by anything in the Monster Manual on a nat 20.

Not to mention Fast healing, that Cha bonus to Saves (with Evasion AND Mettle), and many SLA's.

Add in perform (Dance), and slippers of battledancing (DMG 2), along with Divine Might, and you can be hitting for good damage too.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll raise you a non-gestalt Gloura (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e), Fighter 2/ Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 3, with Ascetic Mage, without LA buyoff:
Cha 18 base, +6 race, +4 levels, +1 age, +5 Tome, +6 Enhancement = 40 (+15)
Dex 18 base, +10 race, -1 age, +5 Tome, +6 Enhancement = 38 (+14)
+15 Armor: Bracers of Armor +10 (nonepic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm)), with Magic Vestment +5 (via staff + UMD)
+15 Deflection: race
+14 Dex
+15 Monk
+5 Natural: Amulet +5
+15 Profane: Mystic Wanderer
+15 Dodge: Arcane Duelist
+9 Shield: Staff + UMD for Persistent Shield, with Magic Vestment +5 (via staff + UMD)
Total AC: 113, Touch 84, flat-footed 83
For offense, you have either Shock Trooper flying with a diving attack for x2 damage, or full attack two-handed with Power Attack plus Dexterous Attack. Plus you get Divine Might for Cha to damage, and your +5 weapon counts as a +6 weapon pre-epic.

Edit: It also gets Cha to saves twice.

[oxinabox]

Since when was this thread for lvl 20?
ECL 8, no LA buy off. were the rules i stated...

@Captain Alien: ooh i forgot that while focre screan a shield bonus it wasn't a shield for purpoises of a monks AC bonus, added to mine: :D

[Talic]

Ghost/Evolved Undead can do well in Gestalt.

Paladin 5 / Monk 2/ Sorceror 1 (Ascetic Monk) / Pious Templar 10 / XXX 2
Human Ghost 8 / Evolved Undead 12

18 Base Cha
+5 Levels
+5 Inherent (Tome of Leadership and Influence)
+4 Racial (Ghost)
+24 Racial (Evolved Undead)
+6 Enhancement (Cloak of Charisma)
=62 Cha, or a +26 Modifier.

Ascetic Monk gives +26 untyped bonus to AC
Ghost gives a +26 deflection bonus to AC
Shield +5 with Shield Ward feat gives +8 AC (+1 for qualifying feat for Shield Ward)
Divine Shield can, in a pinch, add another +26.
Say a +5 Dex modifier (20 Dex)

Now: 10 + 5 (Dex) + 8 (Shield) + 26 (Deflection) + 26 (Untyped) = 75 AC Base.

With Divine Shield? 101 AC. This means it can Shock Trooper its AC for 20, and STILL only be hit by anything in the Monster Manual on a nat 20.

Not to mention Fast healing, that Cha bonus to Saves (with Evasion AND Mettle), and many SLA's.

Add in perform (Dance), and slippers of battledancing (DMG 2), along with Divine Might, and you can be hitting for good damage too.

For Level 8:

Human
Paladin 5/Sor 1/Monk2
Ghost 8

18 Cha base + 4 Racial + 2 level + 4 (Item) = 28 Cha
16 Dex base

+9 AC (Deflect), + 9 AC (Monk), +3 Dex = 31 AC /Touch AC
Every level will result in at least +2 AC, and, when Shield ward/divine shield is picked up, you'll eke out a bit more, in clutch situations. (+12 base, add 1 for every ECL above 8).

The build I showed listed progression to level 20.
It's first viable at level 8.

[Captain Alien]

Oh, I forgot to boost Natural Armor and Armor Bonus, by using amulets and bracers, in that pixie build. I am not going to calculate how many bonuses I can afford, so it stays like that.

Also, that force barrier ring (Is it called like this? I am not sure.) gives +3 to shield AC, with no penalizers, but Force Screen is better. Well, and Shield spell, but it works exactly the same, except for those Magic Missile defenses.

[woodenbandman]

Has anyone beaten my 59 at level 8?

Feral Anthropomorphic Bat Swordsage2 with the WBL of an 8th level character can get 59. Halfweight Mithril Mechanus Gear, +1 Animated Tower Shield, +1 Defending weapon. Have a friendly cleric (or be a friendly cleric). Using LA buyoff, you have +1small size, +13 total wisdom bonus (with no buffs), +11 Armor, +5 shield, + 1 defending +6 natural armor, +2 dex for 59 entirely unbuffed.

Add in 5 levels of Druid, and you can cast all kinds of tasty buffs, like Barkskin, Bite of the Wererat, and crap like that to get natural armor enhancements and stuff like that for another +8 or so, as well as owl's wisdom. I have probably run out of wealth at this point. I may have accidentally calculated wealth assuming that I have a friendly artificer, since this is a holdover from a really crazy game. If that's the case, then all that needs to happen is that you are a Swordsage2/Artificer5. And that's probably the best thing anyway, because infusions are boss.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Has anyone beaten my 59 at level 8?

Feral Anthropomorphic Bat Swordsage2 with the WBL of an 8th level character can get 59. Halfweight Mithril Mechanus Gear, +1 Animated Tower Shield, +1 Defending weapon. Have a friendly cleric (or be a friendly cleric). Using LA buyoff, you have +1small size, +13 total wisdom bonus (with no buffs), +11 Armor, +5 shield, + 1 defending +6 natural armor, +2 dex for 59 entirely unbuffed.
Swordsage AC bonus doesn't work when you're using a shield, including an animated shield.

Edit: A suit of +1 Halfweight Mithral Mechanus Gear would cost 26,750 gp by my calculations, how would you even come close to affording everything else with that?

[Yukitsu]

Because it's not a bonus, just as nightsticks granting Extra Turning aren't a bonus. Bonus is a reserved word. Things are bonuses if, and only if, they state that they are.

It doesn't even use buff notation (+X to whatever), instead opting with a style more similar to Nightstick (grants X).

Nightsticks grant something that can stack or overlap for anyone cares, because in any given time, there is no difference between having over 9000 turn attempts, as opposed to 4 extra turn attempts every round of the day. The extra turn attempts may stack, they may overlap, though it should be noted that "overlap" is a closer to correct answer as you can only use one rod at a time. Two if you don't need to move, already have them in your hands, or whatever.

As well, "In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified." is the rules in specific for the game. If you read the seperate categories for these, "untyped" bonuses do not exist in explicit, and in any case in which the game refers to an untyped bonus, one should reasonably refer to "(or no type at all.)" in the above rule. Note that to stack, merely being of "no type at all category" is not sufficient to stack with itself. It must also be from a different source.

It has been known that WotC does not allow bonuses which have no type at all to stack assuming it's from the same source. If this were not the case, orange ioun stones would stack, as the orange ioun stone similarly is not tagged "Bonus" or such. However, they do not due to the clause "same source" in the rules on stacking.

A less contentious example is multiple instances of divine grace not stacking.

Second of all, it doesn't need to be labelled "modifier" (Or any synonym in specific) in explicit. "Modifiers:
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty." is the rule explicitly defining the rules for modifiers. For reference as to why we know the rules include bonuses to stats which influence your dice rolls, see "enhancement" which implies that bonuses to stats which increase dice modifiers are in fact bonuses.

Note that modifier is not defined as "The following" or "Anything labelled with..." It merely defines any bonus as a bonus, noted as such or otherwise. As such, an undefined increase in constitution is reasonably a bonus, as it follows the sufficient criteria in being a "modifier" as defined above.

Lastly, it's likely clear that any attempt at arbitrarily high stats is in strict violation of intent of the rules.

[Talic]

Second of all, it doesn't need to be labelled "modifier" (Or any synonym in specific) in explicit. "Modifiers:
A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty." is the rule explicitly defining the rules for modifiers. For reference as to why we know the rules include bonuses to stats which influence your dice rolls, see "enhancement" which implies that bonuses to stats which increase dice modifiers are in fact bonuses.Indirect. Bonuses to a stat which alters a modifier which provides an increased chance of success at a die roll is not a "bonus or penalty applying to a die roll". Increased constitution does not, in and of itself, apply directly to a roll. "+1 to attack and damage" references rolls. This could then, by the rules, be considered a bonus.

By your logic, characters aging is a bonus. Why? Because age corresponds to a table which lists increases to mental stats. Those mental stats, in turn, affect a variety of rolls, whether they be skill rolls, saving throws, or what have you.

So now, birthdays are bonuses. And penalties, oddly, as they also can reduce strength.

Gaining age is not a bonus or a penalty, even if it can modify stats that will alter a modifier that alters a roll.

Nor is modifying a Stat directly. The stat doesn't modify the roll. The modifier for the stat does.


Note that modifier is not defined as "The following" or "Anything labelled with..." It merely defines any bonus as a bonus, noted as such or otherwise. As such, an undefined increase in constitution is reasonably a bonus, as it follows the sufficient criteria in being a "modifier" as defined above.
No, it does not. Constitution is not explicitly referenced in any die roll. Constitution Modifiers may apply to Fort saves, but increasing Constitution is indirectly modifying the roll, in that the modifier changes with it. It does not directly modify that roll however. You must check a table to get the corresponding modifier.

Just like age. So increasing stats through the Shambling Mound trick is no more a bonus than a birthday.


Lastly, it's likely clear that any attempt at arbitrarily high stats is in strict violation of intent of the rules.
Actually, RAI is not clear. Unless the designers explicitly say, "uh, we didn't mean for it to do that", then arguing intent is like trying to argue that Speed Limits weren't intended to apply to people with important meetings.

Maybe true, maybe not. Outside our scope of discussion, and 100% irrelevant to anything worth discussing here.

After all, it could be argued that god-kobolds named pun-pun are against RAI. It could be argued that 13th level Shadowcraft Mages spamming Miracles for free isn't RAI.

But it's legal. And this isn't the "are these methods in the spirit of the game" thread.

This is a thread about legally obtaining a stupid high AC. Your comments about RAI are, therefore, off topic.

For another example:Say I provide my kid a hearty breakfast every morning before school. That extra energy helps him focus, and he performs better.

Your arguement would be like failing my kid's test because I'm helping him on it, by feeding him in the morning. After all, my actions indirectly contribute to his success. So, I'm providing him with a bonus on his testing ability.

But it's not cheating. It's just freakin' breakfast.

In other words: Increasing Constitution isn't a bonus, though that increased constitution will provide a bonus, indirectly.

In a similar reasoning, Fatigue isn't a penalty. Fatigue is a status condition, and it provides penalties, but it is not a penalty.

[Captain Alien]

Has anyone beaten my 59 at level 8?


Well, I do not know that Swordsage class because I do not own the Nine Swords book, but they say that you cannot afford the armor, and the shield cannot stack with that weird Swordsage feature.

Can you rewrite the build? I think you beat me anyway, but I want to see it.

Well, that 113 was insane, but I want to give it a try.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, I do not know that Swordsage class because I do not own the Nine Swords book, but they say that you cannot afford the armor, and the shield cannot stack with that weird Swordsage feature.

Can you rewrite the build? I think you beat me anyway, but I want to see it.

Well, that 113 was insane, but I want to give it a try.

The 59 is bogus, he's way, way over standard wealth by level on his gear, plus he has an animated shield which cancels out his Swordsage AC bonus.

You could go Feral, Nonpsionic Thri-Kreen, White Dragonspawn, LA +3/ Monstrous Humanoid 2/ Swordsage 3
Spells: Dragonspawn cast spells as a 1st level Sorcerer, spells known would include Shield.
2 flaws, doesn't really matter what as long as it's not Vulnerable.
Feats: Improved Natural Armor x4
Abilities: Wis 18 (16 base, +2 race), Dex 20 (16 base, +4 race)
Equipment (27K worth): Ring of Protection +1, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, +2 Mithral Breastplate, +1 Parrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#parrying) Broadblade Shortsword (CV, errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20060531a)), Masterwork Broadblade Shortsword x3, over 4k gp remaining
AC:
+18 Natural (+6 feral, +7 dragonspawn, +4 feats, +1 enhancement)
+7 armor
+5 Dex
+4 Wis (Swordsage)
+1 Deflection (Ring)
+1 Insight (Parrying)
+3 fighting defensively (+2 base, +1 Tumble 5+ ranks)
+4 Dodge (Broadblade Shortsword x4, errated)
+4 Shield (Shield spell)
= AC 57 with your own buffs.

[SinsI]

Can you really mix templates like that? I highly doubt those bonuses to natural armor from Feral and White Dragonspawn should stack - only the best one applies.
And wasn't Feral a 3rd edition template?

[Alleine]

Mixing templates is pretty easy. All you have to do is make sure that you're the right creature type from past templates so that future templates are still possible. I don't pretend to know how applying bonuses would work though. What I want to know is where the white dragonspawn came from. MM4 has white dragonspawns, but those are creatures, not templates.

Feral is indeed 3.0, but I think the rule is that as long as it hasn't been updated its up for grabs for any 3.5 game.

[ColdSepp]

Mixing templates is pretty easy. All you have to do is make sure that you're the right creature type from past templates so that future templates are still possible. I don't pretend to know how applying bonuses would work though. What I want to know is where the white dragonspawn came from. MM4 has white dragonspawns, but those are creatures, not templates.

Feral is indeed 3.0, but I think the rule is that as long as it hasn't been updated its up for grabs for any 3.5 game.

White Dragonspawn is in a Dragonlance sourcebook, though which one escapes me.

[Yukitsu]

Indirect. Bonuses to a stat which alters a modifier which provides an increased chance of success at a die roll is not a "bonus or penalty applying to a die roll". Increased constitution does not, in and of itself, apply directly to a roll. "+1 to attack and damage" references rolls. This could then, by the rules, be considered a bonus.

Explicitly countered by the notion that an "enhancement bonus" to constitution cannot stack, because it follows the rules of modifiers. You can claim this is a special exception, but if that is the case, then multiple castings of "inner beauty" stack with itself, because it's a sacred bonus to a stat, which is by your definition is not a modifier. Ergo, one could gain a similar AC at a lower level by using divine shield and an arbitrarily high charisma.


By your logic, characters aging is a bonus. Why? Because age corresponds to a table which lists increases to mental stats. Those mental stats, in turn, affect a variety of rolls, whether they be skill rolls, saving throws, or what have you.

Age at arbitrarily assigned points carry both bonuses and penalties. I fail to see why it's unintuitive to assign the age related stat increases as bonuses or penalties.


So now, birthdays are bonuses. And penalties, oddly, as they also can reduce strength.

Age carries bonuses. A cloak of charisma carries bonuses. Neither age nor cloaks of charisma are bonuses in and of themselves. Same with penalties.


Gaining age is not a bonus or a penalty, even if it can modify stats that will alter a modifier that alters a roll.

Gaining a cloak of charisma is not a bonus. It has a bonus attached to it. As well, why do you believe that age related stat increases are not bonuses?


Nor is modifying a Stat directly. The stat doesn't modify the roll. The modifier for the stat does.

Adressed above.


No, it does not. Constitution is not explicitly referenced in any die roll. Constitution Modifiers may apply to Fort saves, but increasing Constitution is indirectly modifying the roll, in that the modifier changes with it. It does not directly modify that roll however. You must check a table to get the corresponding modifier.

Adressed above.


Just like age. So increasing stats through the Shambling Mound trick is no more a bonus than a birthday.

I don't see any logical reason to assume that age related increases are not modifiers.


Actually, RAI is not clear. Unless the designers explicitly say, "uh, we didn't mean for it to do that", then arguing intent is like trying to argue that Speed Limits weren't intended to apply to people with important meetings.

Possible, however, they seem to be fairly adament that no bonuses save dodge and circumstance are allowed to stack. As well, you're saying they intentionally added infinite loops?


Maybe true, maybe not. Outside our scope of discussion, and 100% irrelevant to anything worth discussing here.

Not entirely. A skeptical outlook on what is allowed generally is the correct assumption.


After all, it could be argued that god-kobolds named pun-pun are against RAI. It could be argued that 13th level Shadowcraft Mages spamming Miracles for free isn't RAI.

Pun-pun probably. I don't see spamming miracles as the same in scope as infinite anything.


But it's legal. And this isn't the "are these methods in the spirit of the game" thread.

Most of your arguments against my position do not have any evidence.


This is a thread about legally obtaining a stupid high AC. Your comments about RAI are, therefore, off topic.

One comment is. The others are discussions of RAW.


For another example:Say I provide my kid a hearty breakfast every morning before school. That extra energy helps him focus, and he performs better.

Refered to as a circumstance bonus.


Your arguement would be like failing my kid's test because I'm helping him on it, by feeding him in the morning. After all, my actions indirectly contribute to his success. So, I'm providing him with a bonus on his testing ability.

But it's not cheating. It's just freakin' breakfast.

A bonus is distinct from cheating, unless you can indicate that all modifiers are cheating based off of the assumption that they are modifiers. As it stands, your assesment makes studying cheating, being intelligent cheating, and having attended class cheating.


In other words: Increasing Constitution isn't a bonus, though that increased constitution will provide a bonus, indirectly.

In a similar reasoning, Fatigue isn't a penalty. Fatigue is a status condition, and it provides penalties, but it is not a penalty.

Adressed above. Nothing in your post indicates that a shambling mounds increase to constitution is not a bonus as comparable to an enhancement bonus to a stat.

[SinsI]

Mixing templates is pretty easy. All you have to do is make sure that you're the right creature type from past templates so that future templates are still possible. I don't pretend to know how applying bonuses would work though. What I want to know is where the white dragonspawn came from. MM4 has white dragonspawns, but those are creatures, not templates.

Feral is indeed 3.0, but I think the rule is that as long as it hasn't been updated its up for grabs for any 3.5 game.
If it is this one (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/11052.aspx), it is fan-made.
Most of them say that "your skin is covered in thick scales" as justification for NA bonus. You can only have a certain amount of scales on your body, adding any more templates shouldn't work. After all, what's stopping you from stacking four variations of the same template and profitting from it 4x times?

Thri-kreen back in the AD&D days couldn't use armor, that was the justification for their natural armor bonus. Don't know about 3.5 version, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If it is this one (http://www.dlnexus.com/fan/rules/11052.aspx), it is fan-made.
Most of them say that "your skin is covered in thick scales" as justification for NA bonus. You can only have a certain amount of scales on your body, adding any more templates shouldn't work. After all, what's stopping you from stacking four variations of the same template and profitting from it 4x times?

Thri-kreen back in the AD&D days couldn't use armor, that was the justification for their natural armor bonus. Don't know about 3.5 version, though.

White Dragonspawn is in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000), page 222-223. The other four colors have higher level adjustments, plus I don't think you can have more than one on the same creature for RP reasons though there is no rule prohibiting it.

Feral replaces the base creature's natural armor bonus with +6, White Dragonspawn could be gained any time after and increases the current bonus by +7. Stacking the two is perfectly legitimate, and stacking multiple sources of natural armor works because the scales can still get thicker/stronger.

Thri-Kreen have no such limitation in 3.5, plus they only get a +3 natural armor bonus which is replaced by Feral's +6. I was mostly using it for ability adjustments and to wield four Broadblade Shortswords.

[VirOath]

Nightsticks grant something that can stack or overlap for anyone cares, because in any given time, there is no difference between having over 9000 turn attempts, as opposed to 4 extra turn attempts every round of the day. The extra turn attempts may stack, they may overlap, though it should be noted that "overlap" is a closer to correct answer as you can only use one rod at a time. Two if you don't need to move, already have them in your hands, or whatever.



Nightsticks are unique. The wording on them is that having it on your person gives it to you. Not held, not when used, when carried on your person. So you gain the benefit of all nightsticks on you that aren't in an extra-dimensional space.

On the terms of AC, something like a Factotum/Monk-Or-Swordsage/Iaijatsu Master with Kung-Fu Genius (Swordsage is better if you get get the DM to agree, or allow the feat to be taken and apply with Belt of the Monk. But not both, as the belt doesn't give you an AC bonus when armored.). Int to AC 3 times, plus Dex, with Defending Armor spikes (If you can get it with Swordsage).

If you can grab a certain stance out of ToB, then you get a dodge bonus that stacks with itself when a mob misses an attack. That should get you a high starting AC that can be near-infinite during the course of a fight.

I'll work on that later, unless someone else wants to stat it out.

[SinsI]

White Dragonspawn is in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dlacc/869900000), page 222-223. The other four colors have higher level adjustments, plus I don't think you can have more than one on the same creature for RP reasons though there is no rule prohibiting it.

Feral replaces the base creature's natural armor bonus with +6, White Dragonspawn could be gained any time after and increases the current bonus by +7. Stacking the two is perfectly legitimate, and stacking multiple sources of natural armor works because the scales can still get thicker/stronger.

Thri-Kreen have no such limitation in 3.5, plus they only get a +3 natural armor bonus which is replaced by Feral's +6. I was mostly using it for ability adjustments and to wield four Broadblade Shortswords.

"The dragonspawn has a +7 natural armor, or the base creature's natural armor, whichever is better" - as you can see, it also replaces base creature's NA.

Feral is +1LA, Thri-Kreen is +2LA, White Dragonspawn should be at least +3LA (come on, he is already 1st level in Sorcerer and has a ton of great abilities, +1LA is not right at all), so you can only get 2 levels of Swordsage.

And I really, really wonder how a Feral Dragonspawn 4-armed insectoid with scaly skin managed to get his hands on a mithral breastplate +2 that fits him.

[tyckspoon]

If you can grab a certain stance out of ToB, then you get a dodge bonus that stacks with itself when a mob misses an attack. That should get you a high starting AC that can be near-infinite during the course of a fight.


It also resets every round, which makes it less than ideal. You'd have to find a way to get a small army of creatures following you around, constantly attacking you and missing you to make it a reliable source of high AC.

[Talic]

Explicitly countered by the notion that an "enhancement bonus" to constitution cannot stack, because it follows the rules of modifiers. You can claim this is a special exception, but if that is the case, then multiple castings of "inner beauty" stack with itself, because it's a sacred bonus to a stat, which is by your definition is not a modifier. Ergo, one could gain a similar AC at a lower level by using divine shield and an arbitrarily high charisma.Addressed by a different section. These are typed. Typed bonuses never stack. Untyped alterations that are not bonuses do.

Your argument:
Premise 1: It doesn't stack because it's a bonus from the same sort.
Premise 2: Bonuses are modifiers to die rolls.

Counter Premise 1: Constitution increases are not modifiers to die rolls. Therefore, unless it explicitly announces itself as a bonus, it is not. It fails the book-defined litmus test defining a bonus. This invalidates premise 1. If it's not a bonus, the entire house of cards crumbles.


Age at arbitrarily assigned points carry both bonuses and penalties. I fail to see why it's unintuitive to assign the age related stat increases as bonuses or penalties.That's the exact point I tried to make. That doesn't make "Age 10 years" a bonus or penalty. It may put you in a category on a table that alters stats, but the aging isn't.

"Gain 2 Constitution" does not alter anything other than the amount of time you can hold your breath, in and of itself. It may put your Constitution in a range that has an altered modifier on a table, and it could be argued that the modifier is a bonus... But not the Constitution increase. It affects no rolls.


Age carries bonuses. A cloak of charisma carries bonuses. Neither age nor cloaks of charisma are bonuses in and of themselves. Same with penalties.Age carries a bonus? Then what's the Age modifier for a character that's 57? How about one that's 133?

Age does not carry a bonus. Age categories do. And gaining constitution is no different than aging 2 years. It provides no direct alteration to rolls. It may provide a modifier, but that modifier is not the same as the constitution.


Gaining a cloak of charisma is not a bonus. It has a bonus attached to it. As well, why do you believe that age related stat increases are not bonuses?
I never said that. I said that gaining age isn't a bonus. Becoming 10 years older is not a bonus, just because it may provide one indirectly. Gaining Constitution is not necessarily a bonus, just because it may provide one directly.


I don't see any logical reason to assume that age related increases are not modifiers.But I see every reason that increasing age is not a modifier.


Possible, however, they seem to be fairly adament that no bonuses save dodge and circumstance are allowed to stack. As well, you're saying they intentionally added infinite loops?And untyped. And I would not surmise the intent of designers. It's beyond my area of expertise. As it is beyond yours.


Not entirely. A skeptical outlook on what is allowed generally is the correct assumption.In your opinion. "Correct" can be assigned to verifiable, provable information. Opinions are neither correct nor incorrect.

"I like pie"
If you assume that pie is better? That's not correct.
If you assume I like pie? That is.
All that is demonstrated correct is that you believe that the designers wanted players to be skeptical and restrictive, rather than open to imagination and creativity.


Pun-pun probably. I don't see spamming miracles as the same in scope as infinite anything.Again, realm of conjecture and opinion, and entirely outside the scope of the discussion.


Most of your arguments against my position do not have any evidence.
Other than my facts versus your opinions, gut instincts, and contradictory text?


One comment is. The others are discussions of RAW.Inaccurate ones, but yes.


Refered to as a circumstance bonus.

A bonus is distinct from cheating, unless you can indicate that all modifiers are cheating based off of the assumption that they are modifiers. As it stands, your assesment makes studying cheating, being intelligent cheating, and having attended class cheating.Incorrect. Those are things that the test taker does for himself. If he receives a bonus from an outside source? Oh my. Breakfast is cheating now.


Adressed above. Nothing in your post indicates that a shambling mounds increase to constitution is not a bonus as comparable to an enhancement bonus to a stat.
Except that an enhancement bonus is identified as such, and this one is not?

Nor does it modify die rolls?
Nor does it increase any roll whatsoever.

In fact, do me a favor. Find a single die roll that a character's Constitution directly applies to. Not the Constitution Modifier, mind you. That's explicitly stated to be a modifier, and does increase several rolls, including Concentration, and Fortitude saves. The Shambling Mound's ability does not increase the modifier. It increases the Constitution score directly.

Much like gaining 10 years doesn't provide a bonus. The "middle age" category? Perhaps. But Aging 10 years is not a bonus, even if it puts someone middle age.

Aging 10 years? Is just aging 10 years.
Gaining Con? Just increases the con score. If it happens to put you in a different category? Then bully for it. Reference the table to get it.

It's called a derived statistic. Altering a base that you then derive a different number from does not make the base the same as the derived number.

[sofawall]

And I really, really wonder how a Feral Dragonspawn 4-armed insectoid with scaly skin managed to get his hands on a mithral breastplate +2 that fits him.

Did you really just ****ing ask that?

Are you bringing in DM fiat? Are you bringing in homebrew? House rules? Things that aren't even hinted at in the rules?

Well, you know what he did? He got some mithral from the dwarves, went home to have another of his race make it to his specifications, then any old wizard could enchant it. That's how, foolish son of a Took!

Also, you are right about the Nat AC. Just thought I'd throw myself behind that, too.

[Yukitsu]

Addressed by a different section. These are typed. Typed bonuses never stack. Untyped alterations that are not bonuses do.

Citation, please. A change in statistics which result in altered modifiers (For example, enhancement bonuses to stats, which result in a change in resultant rolls) are defined as modifiers. I see no reason to believe the untyped variation should stack when untyped modifiers are expressly non-stacking when from the same source.


Your argument:
Premise 1: It doesn't stack because it's a bonus from the same sort.
Premise 2: Bonuses are modifiers to die rolls.

Premise 2 addendum: When an increase in statistics is involved, it is considered a modifier, following the same rules, and applying to the same category (see enhancement modifiers)
Conclusion following from premises and addendum: The constitution increase from shambling mounds does constitute a modifier, unless you can prove that A: all modifiers must be direct, and B: that enhancement bonuses are an acception, not the rule.


Counter Premise 1: Constitution increases are not modifiers to die rolls. Therefore, unless it explicitly announces itself as a bonus, it is not. It fails the book-defined litmus test defining a bonus. This invalidates premise 1. If it's not a bonus, the entire house of cards crumbles.

See that bonuses otherwise do in fact relate to this increase, as per the rules for enhancement bonuses. As well, it is not denied that it must be direct increases to bonuses, as opposed to tangential ones.


That's the exact point I tried to make. That doesn't make "Age 10 years" a bonus or penalty. It may put you in a category on a table that alters stats, but the aging isn't.


"Gain 2 Constitution" does not alter anything other than the amount of time you can hold your breath, in and of itself. It may put your Constitution in a range that has an altered modifier on a table, and it could be argued that the modifier is a bonus... But not the Constitution increase. It affects no rolls.

Constitution grants a bonus to endurance, fortitude, and concentration. As well, as can be seen by enhancement bonuses to constitution, these do not stack, even when indirect.


Age carries a bonus? Then what's the Age modifier for a character that's 57? How about one that's 133?

Whatever the chart tells you. Age grants an untyped bonus to stats.


Age does not carry a bonus. Age categories do. And gaining constitution is no different than aging 2 years. It provides no direct alteration to rolls. It may provide a modifier, but that modifier is not the same as the constitution.

Age and age categories, in terms of game mechanics are not dissimilar, and pointing out that I used "Age" when we are speaking in terms of "Age categories" is overly pedantic. Second of all, if one says that they are within a certain range of ages, they fall within a category, so age does indeed carry mechanical differences, though they only influence the character at discrete intervals.


I never said that. I said that gaining age isn't a bonus. Becoming 10 years older is not a bonus, just because it may provide one indirectly. Gaining Constitution is not necessarily a bonus, just because it may provide one directly.

It is however, the source of a bonus. Increases to statistics are included in bonuses as per enhancement, unless you want to believe that multiple sacred bonuses to statistics stack because enhancement is a special case.


But I see every reason that increasing age is not a modifier.

There are additional degrees of seperation from the stat to the modifier, compared to age, age category, stat, stat modifier. Not that this is particularly pertinant, as bonuses granted by age categories explicitly stack, as opposed to being unclear.


And untyped. And I would not surmise the intent of designers. It's beyond my area of expertise. As it is beyond yours.

I'm certain that it is a reasonable assertion that it is not there intent to cause infinite loops. However, since they are still around, I'll make sure to stamp off an e-mail to the experts at wizards.


In your opinion. "Correct" can be assigned to verifiable, provable information. Opinions are neither correct nor incorrect.

I believe in this instance, the subjectivity of intent is questionable, because the designers of the original intent can be asked, as opposed to mere speculation on the part of individuals who were not initially privy to said intent.


Incorrect. Those are things that the test taker does for himself. If he receives a bonus from an outside source? Oh my. Breakfast is cheating now.

Is it the case that help from outside sources is considered cheating where you live? Because were I do, it is not.


Except that an enhancement bonus is identified as such, and this one is not?

So you would agree then that any bonus that isn't a direct bonus to a roll in isolation is not a modifier? Unless you indicate that enhancement is somehow unique in this manner, there is no reason to assume it is. And again, they do not indicate that only direct modifiers to rolls apply.


Nor does it modify die rolls?
Nor does it increase any roll whatsoever.

Increases in constitution increase fortitude, concentration, constitution and possibly some other checks.


In fact, do me a favor. Find a single die roll that a character's Constitution directly applies to. Not the Constitution Modifier, mind you. That's explicitly stated to be a modifier, and does increase several rolls, including Concentration, and Fortitude saves. The Shambling Mound's ability does not increase the modifier. It increases the Constitution score directly.

Actually, it says neither "score" nor "modifier" explicitly, as they are generally considered synonymous in that any increase to one is a direct increase in the other.


Much like gaining 10 years doesn't provide a bonus. The "middle age" category? Perhaps. But Aging 10 years is not a bonus, even if it puts someone middle age.

Character A is 25 years old. He states, "Aging 10 years will give me a bonus to intelligence" would this be a false statement? No, its not. Aging 10 years does grant a bonus, though it has to be in specific amounts.


Aging 10 years? Is just aging 10 years.

Unless it's not. Fallacy of composition isn't really anything I care to debate.


Gaining Con? Just increases the con score. If it happens to put you in a different category? Then bully for it. Reference the table to get it.

It's called a derived statistic. Altering a base that you then derive a different number from does not make the base the same as the derived number.

However, the rules in this instance imply that the base set do follow the same rules as modifiers.

As well, I found a tangential answer in the FAQ, under night sticks. They expressly do not stack, because untyped bonuses to the number of something which is not a modifier as defined above cannot gain multiple benefits from the same item. (FAQ, page 61) This indicates that as expected, whether or not it is in fact a modifier, strict or otherwise (as the number of turn attempts does not affect any rolls, even tangentially) that untyped bonuses to anything cannot stack if they are from the same source.

[SinsI]

Did you really just ****ing ask that?

Are you bringing in DM fiat? Are you bringing in homebrew? House rules? Things that aren't even hinted at in the rules?

Well, you know what he did? He got some mithral from the dwarves, went home to have another of his race make it to his specifications, then any old wizard could enchant it. That's how, foolish son of a Took!
Well, with Thri-Kreen being nomads and all, I highly doubt they have many great metalworking smiths - forges aren't very portable.
And Feral humanoids have lost all connections to civilization - their access to old wizards is extremely limited.

These are all limitations that apply just as strongly as those "natural armor don't stack with other natural armor sources" rules do.

Also, "The typical thri-kreen wears no clothing or armor" (MMII), so their skills in creating armor "to his specifications" are nonexistent(and no, you cannot adapt that Breastplate design - it only has two openings for arms!). Your party will have to invent that Thri-Kreen armor from scratch - and as such, it automatically falls into homebrew content and is inapplicable in this thread.

Conclusion: instead of AC 57, you only get AC 44 - while fighting defensively, and AC 37 - while fighting normally. You've sacrificed all your feats for NA, you get horrible penalties to your attack rolls, and you only have ~25 HP at level 8.

[Talic]

Citation, please. A change in statistics which result in altered modifiers (For example, enhancement bonuses to stats, which result in a change in resultant rolls) are defined as modifiers. I see no reason to believe the untyped variation should stack when untyped modifiers are expressly non-stacking when from the same source.Wait for it...


Premise 2 addendum: When an increase in statistics is involved, it is considered a modifier, following the same rules, and applying to the same category (see enhancement modifiers)Cite source for the precise definition of modifiers. I've found only the following:Modifiers

A modifier is any bonus or penalty applying to a die roll. A positive modifier is a bonus, and a negative modifier is a penalty.
This does not provide for increases in statistics. By the currently accepted SRD definition of modifiers, an increase in Statistics is not a modifier unless it is explicitly stated as such.

In other words? Cite source for Addendum. Make it RAW, please, as I have precisely zero interest in opinions or conjecture. Only facts.


Conclusion following from premises and addendum: The constitution increase from shambling mounds does constitute a modifier, unless you can prove that A: all modifiers must be direct, and B: that enhancement bonuses are an acception, not the rule.Conclusion unsupported by premises that are supported by cited rules.

Resolve this, if you would.

In fact:

Ability Modifier

The bonus or penalty associated with a particular ability score. Ability modifiers apply to die rolls for character actions involving the corresponding abilities.
Note: Ability modifiers are modifiers. Ability Scores are scores. They are not interchangeable. While increasing one may alter a modifier, much as increasing age may alter the bonus, doing so does not, in and of itself, constitute a modifier.

The ability that is in contention increases a score. It does not increase a modifier. That's a rule effect of increased Con. Increased con isn't a "multiple bonus" issue. It's merely a modifier that is referenced when needed. Just like age categories.

This increase does not qualify as "altering a roll", so does not meet the base definition of a modifier.

This increase is not listed as a bonus, penalty, or modifier, so does not suffer from "specific trumps general".

[tyckspoon]

Well, with Thri-Kreen being nomads and all, I highly doubt they have many great metalworking smiths - forges aren't very portable.
And Feral humanoids have lost all connections with civilization - their access to old wizards is extremely limited.

These are all limitations that apply just as strongly as those "natural armor don't stack with other natural armor sources" rules do.

Also, "The typical thri-kreen wears no clothing or armor" (MMII), so their skills in creating armor "to his specifications" are nonexistent. Your party will have to invent that Thri-Kreen armor from scratch - and as such, it automatically falls into homebrew content and is inapplicable in this thread.

So go find an armorsmith who is interested in doing a really fascinating piece of work. And then take it to the same wizard who is doing all of your party's to-order enchanting (may in fact be your party's Wizard and/or Artificer.) The character who can afford to have a +2 Mithral armor is no longer a barbaric bug fresh out of the wastelands- he's an established adventurer. Adventurers make contacts with the kinds of people who can provide those services almost as an unavoidable side effect of the kinds of work the adventurers do. The Feral Thri-Kreen will simply be more interested in readily-negotiable treasures than he will old suits of armor; the game allows for him to spend it on what he wants just the same as his more normally-shaped compatriots.

[SinsI]

So go find an armorsmith who is interested in doing a really fascinating piece of work. And then take it to the same wizard who is doing all of your party's to-order enchanting (may in fact be your party's Wizard and/or Artificer.) The character who can afford to have a +2 Mithral armor is no longer a barbaric bug fresh out of the wastelands- he's an established adventurer. Adventurers make contacts with the kinds of people who can provide those services almost as an unavoidable side effect of the kinds of work the adventurers do. The Feral Thri-Kreen will simply be more interested in readily-negotiable treasures than he will old suits of armor; the game allows for him to spend it on what he wants just the same as his more normally-shaped compatriots.
That doesn't change the fact that such an armor is not going to be a "breastplate"; it is going to be a completely new invention of your DM, 100% homebrew, not published in any official or 3rd party rulebook - and so you cannot use it in this thread.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

That doesn't change the fact that such an armor is not going to be a "breastplate"; it is going to be a completely new invention of your DM, 100% homebrew, not published in any official or 3rd party rulebook - and so you cannot use it in this thread.The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#armorForUnusualCreatures). Not really 3rd party.

[sofawall]

If you don't accept the SRD, it's in the PHB, too.

:P

[SinsI]

Breastplate only has two holes for arms, and is designed to let only those two arms move. Yes, you can make breastplate for a non-humanoid monster like troll, but it'll still only have two holes for arms. Anything you make for a thri-kreen is going to be not a breastplate.

[sofawall]

So, what you're saying is anything that doesn't have 2 arms and 2 legs (armour) or no arms and 4 legs (barding) is never allowed to ever wear any type of armour, according to the PHB?

Citation. I'd like page or link. If you're going to be an ass about this, so will I. Where does it say in the PHB or SRD that Breastplates have 2 holes for arms?

If you can't give a citation, I believe you lose, sir.

[oxinabox]

Breastplate only has two holes for arms, and is designed to let only those two arms move. Yes, you can make breastplate for a non-humanoid monster like troll, but it'll still only have two holes for arms. Anything you make for a thri-kreen is going to be not a breastplate.

For purposes of armour, a monsterous humains is a humanoid, i believe.
as a troll would be a lard humanoid for armour. (therew are no large (nonmosterous) humaiod IIRCs)

afor nonhumaids armour exists, ther SRD:

Size Humanoid Nonhumanoid
Cost Weight Cost Weight

Tiny * ×½ ×1/10 ×1 ×1/10
Small ×1 ×½ ×2 ×½
Medium ×1 ×1 ×2 ×1
Large ×2 ×2 ×4 ×2
Huge ×4 ×5 ×8 ×5
Gargantuan ×8 ×8 ×16 ×8
Colossal ×16 ×12 ×32 ×12

*if tiny or smaller divide AC by 2

anythning that is not humaoid can still ghet armour and it;'s thge same amour as indicated by the fact that tiny creayure only getr half the expected AC

[Talic]

For purposes of armour, a monsterous humains is a humanoid, i believe.
as a troll would be a lard humanoid for armour. (therew are no large (nonmosterous) humaiod IIRCs)

afor nonhumaids armour exists, ther SRD:

anythning that is not humaoid can still ghet armour and it;'s thge same amour as indicated by the fact that tiny creayure only getr half the expected AC

Incorrect.

Monstrous Humanoids are not humanoids.
Trolls are Giants, not humanoids.
The list shows that tiny creatures get their armor at half weight, not have AC bonus.

[SoD]

How do you get past 25? Best I can think of is Adamantine Body Whirling Frenzy Barbarian Warforged with Tower Shield and using the Frenzy for 25 (fighting with the natural Slam-attack for 1d4+9 damage). I guess you can fight defensively for +2 but that doesn't really count.

Dragonwrought Old Kobold monk with 20 dex, 20 wis, and Vow of Poverty. So far we're looking at 10 +1 nat. +1 size, +5 dex, +5 wis, +4 misc. 26 AC.

[Eldariel]

Dragonwrought Old Kobold monk with 20 dex, 20 wis, and Vow of Poverty. So far we're looking at 10 +1 nat. +1 size, +5 dex, +5 wis, +4 misc. 26 AC.

Ah, flaws, yeah. I suppose you could toss two Generic +1 AC-feats for the Barbarian with Flaws. Monk has one for the same purpose so they'd both end up at 27 that way.

[EleventhHour]

Incorrect.

Monstrous Humanoids are not humanoids.
Trolls are Giants, not humanoids.
The list shows that tiny creatures get their armor at half weight, not have AC bonus.

So... something that's Fine and wearing Full-Plate... :smalleek:

[SinsI]

anything that is not humanoid can still get armor and it's the same armour as indicated by the fact that tiny creature only get half the expected AC
The creature should be able to wear that particular design of armor. If it has additional appendages, or no appendages at all - you still cannot use that armor; just try to imagine a Beholder in Full Plate or a Centaur in boots of speed.

[woodenbandman]

Swordsage AC bonus doesn't work when you're using a shield, including an animated shield.

Edit: A suit of +1 Halfweight Mithral Mechanus Gear would cost 26,750 gp by my calculations, how would you even come close to affording everything else with that?

Read the post. I stated that I had probably calculated with the expectation that there was an artificer in the party. It was a holdover from a game with an artificer in it.

So forget the armor and the shield then. That knocks it down to about 49. More if you invest in Dexterity.

+1small size, +13 total wisdom bonus (with no buffs), +6 Armor, + 1 defending +7 natural armor, +4 dex +1 deflection for 42. Buff up if you want. Owls Wisdom, Bite of the Wererat could add another 5 or so.

What's weird is that nobody even pointed out that I had added wrong in the first place. my AC only ever added up to 49. Durp.

[woodenbandman]

Here's another try.

Venerable Anthropomorphic Bat Druid 8.

Bite of the Wereboar + 8(I believe, may be mistaken)
Monk's Belt 13k+ Wildling Clasp 3k
Enhance Wild Shape (4th level spell, obtain plant form early).
Owl's Wisdom
+1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate: 19k. With ranks in craft enough to make the base armor, reduced to 17.5k. If you were level 9 you could craft the whole thing yourself and save half off.

Okay, a little bit over on this one. Drop the armor in this case. At level 9, you can add this in to net yourself a nifty +10 to your AC. good for you!

Shambling Mound form: + 16 Wis, + 19 Natural, -2 size and dex, total of 43 One level higher and you get 53. If you can somehow get items cheaper (Mercantile background?), then woohoo for you.

[Alleine]

The creature should be able to wear that particular design of armor. If it has additional appendages, or no appendages at all - you still cannot use that armor; just try to imagine a Beholder in Full Plate or a Centaur in boots of speed.

Beholders actually CAN'T wear armor. Says so in Lords of Madness. Thri-kreen have no such provision and as such can wear armor.

You saying a thri-kreen can't wear armor is not RAW. The link to the SRD states in no uncertain terms than non-humanoids can wear armor. If the thri-kreen entry had a specific rule in 3.5 saying that it couldn't wear armor then you would be right, but there is no rule that says that.

I would be far more interested in his stacking of Natural Armor. My copy of Dragonlance says that dragonspawn replaces your natural armor or you keep your base natural armor, whichever is better. Same as what Feral says, meaning it would replace feral.

[Alejandro]

My own character has swashbuckler and now duelist levels, and will eventually be able to generate a pretty good AC, without wearing any physical armor at all. Once I get elaborate parry, and assuming my magic items do not get upgraded, if I am fighting a single foe:

Base 10
+1 ac, bracers
+1 ac, amulet of natural armor
+1 AC, ring of protection
+5 AC, DEX
+2 AC, dodge (swashbuckler, and Dodge feat)
+4 AC, INT (canny defense)
+12 AC, fighting defensively (2 base, 2 from Einhander, 1 from 5 ranks in Tumble, at least 7 from elaborate parry)

= 36 AC, again against a single foe.

However, if I improve my bracers, amulet, and ring, I could get it past 40, and if I get an INT buff item, I could get it to 42 or 43, depending on funds.

[sofawall]

The creature should be able to wear that particular design of armor. If it has additional appendages, or no appendages at all - you still cannot use that armor; just try to imagine a Beholder in Full Plate or a Centaur in boots of speed.

Centaurs can use boots of speed, they're just a different shape.

Horses can use full-plate, why can't other non-humanoids?

I suspect you're just being an ass for the hell of it. I mean, there's no way anyone could be so stupid, hard-headed, asinine, illogical, stubborn, bullheaded, pertinacious, pigheaded, inane, absurd and downright idiotic without doing it on purpose. If so, please, stop. The thread is derailed enough anyway.

[Talic]

Armor is listed for dragons in several books. Wings are an extra extension, similar to arms.

[Krazddndfreek]

dandwiki.com (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/DnD_Optimized_Character_Builds);

For all your min/maxing needs:smallbiggrin:

[sofawall]

I prefer d20srd.org, but why did you post that?

[Talic]

Both sites have their uses. dandwiki has better sorting methods for creatures.

[Enguhl]

I made this character last night for a campaign I'm joining, level 10 but it should come close enough to counting :smalltongue:

Dwarven Fighter 7/ Deepwarden 2/ Dwarven Defender 1
Con is 20 (16+2 racial +2 from HD)
Relevant gear:
+2 Interlocking Plate
+2 Steel Tower Shield
Ring of Protection +2
Amulet of Natural Armor +2

Relevant Feats/Abilities:
Defensive Stance
AC Bonus (DwDf)
Dodge
Heavy (and greater) Armor Optimization
Shield Specialization
Combat Experties
Defensive Stance

So:
10 Default
14 Armor (8 Interlocking, 2 enhancement, 2 holding still, 2 optimization)
7 Shield (4, +2 enhancement, +1 specialization)
7 Con (5 Normal, +2 from defensive stance)
2 Natural
2 Deflection
2 Dodge
5 Combat Expertise
4 Fighting Defensively
4 Defensive Stance
57 Total

[Flickerdart]

I prefer d20srd.org, but why did you post that?
Wiki has creatures by CR, SRD doesn't.

[SinsI]

So:
10 Default
14 Armor (8 Interlocking, 2 enhancement, 2 holding still, 2 optimization)
7 Shield (4, +2 enhancement, +1 specialization)
7 Con (5 Normal, +2 from defensive stance)
2 Natural
2 Deflection
2 Dodge
5 Combat Expertise(dodge)
4 Fighting Defensively(dodge)
4 Defensive Stance(dodge)
57 Total
55. Enhancement bonuses don't stack.

[Enguhl]

55. Enhancement bonuses don't stack.

I'm pretty sure they do since one is enhancement to armor and one is enhancement to shields.

[SinsI]

I'm pretty sure they do since one is enhancement to armor and one is enhancement to shields.
hmm... It seems you're right.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#enhancementBonus
Shield's +2 is an enchancement bonus to the shield bonus.
Armor's enchancement is an enchancement to the Armor Bonus.

[sofawall]

Wiki has creatures by CR, SRD doesn't.

But why is it relevant to discussion of AC?

Also, I just pull out my monster manual for that, pdf-style. Nice to know it's on the internet, though.

[Talic]

But why is it relevant to discussion of AC?

Also, I just pull out my monster manual for that, pdf-style. Nice to know it's on the internet, though.

Internet sorting is a bit more organized than the PDF MM. And it's relevant to Druids when going for high AC.

[sofawall]

It sorts by AC? Useful.