How you can tell that this party is pro.

[Tre of the Wood]

The elvish party, that is. I was very impressed with them as soon as I saw them. FOr killing the goblins so easily? Nope. Because the Wizard did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is the sign of a logical party. Let the melee do everything until you are needed. Yay apathy!

[kpenguin]

Pbbt.

A pro party would have the wizard do everything. Why? Because the wizard would be the goddamn Batman.

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think there was really a point in the Wizard doing anything; the chances are that the Hobgoblins were only level 1 (or at least really low level), and the Cleric and Wizard appear to be at least level 9 judging by their uses of Teleport and Sending, so using a spell would have been a waste.

[Boaromir]

I don't think there was really a point in the Wizard doing anything;


I'm pretty sure that is the crux of the OP's point.

[Ancalagon]

The elvish party, that is. I was very impressed with them as soon as I saw them. FOr killing the goblins so easily? Nope. Because the Wizard did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is the sign of a logical party. Let the melee do everything until you are needed. Yay apathy!

Go for this thought: The elves need to infiltrate a hostile city - and there's no chance to send in reinforcements. The team will also be isolated once they are in. Will they send in "the rookies" or "the best of the best"?

[Armitage]

Pbbt.

A pro party would have the wizard do everything. Why? Because the wizard would be the goddamn Batman.
And waste valuable Spells?

They don't know when the will have the next chance to rest, so it is only logical to safe the spells for real threads and let the meelee fighters dispose of the minor enemies.

[Morquard]

Go for this thought: The elves need to infiltrate a hostile city - and there's no chance to send in reinforcements. The team will also be isolated once they are in. Will they send in "the rookies" or "the best of the best"?
Something in between to evaluate the situation. If "the best of the best" run into Xykon in the first 3 minutes, they're just "the best of the dead" then. :)

Someone else has said it: Cloister has a weakness, summon spells. They're going inside and then when in a safe place, start summoning the best of the best, and the second and third bests as well.

[Killer Angel]

You can tell that they're pro, 'cause the elf are "old allies that are slow to go to war".

And we all know that when this kind of people starts moving, they're always badasses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ent#The_Last_March_of_the_Ents).

[Snake-Aes]

The wizard not acting against those mooks is just logical, which proves they are competent, so far. Ideally I'll love to see the wizard paralyzing counterspelling casters away. If they had time to discuss, they know from Haley that the hob parties all have a spell pattern that alerts the whole city.

[Prowl]

Maybe the simplest explanation is that the wizard had already used his actions that round by casting teleport, and thus couldn't react before the round was up (and the goblins dead) even if he wanted to.

[Snake-Aes]

Maybe the simplest explanation is that the wizard had already used his actions that round by casting teleport, and thus couldn't react before the round was up (and the goblins dead) even if he wanted to.

Is that how you'd treat it? When we teleport, we generally don't bother counting rounds and actions until combat starts.
On that case, they had the surprise round, too.

[SoD]

And waste valuable Spells?

They don't know when the will have the next chance to rest, so it is only logical to safe the spells for real threads and let the meelee fighters dispose of the minor enemies.

Real threads, as opposed to the fake plastic ones you give to toddlers?

[The Rose Dragon]

Go for this thought: The elves need to infiltrate a hostile city - and there's no chance to send in reinforcements. The team will also be isolated once they are in. Will they send in "the rookies" or "the best of the best"?

Everything Hollywood ever taught me screams "Send in the rookies! Send in the rookies!".

[Undead Prince]

The elvish party, that is. I was very impressed with them as soon as I saw them. FOr killing the goblins so easily? Nope. Because the Wizard did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is the sign of a logical party. Let the melee do everything until you are needed. Yay apathy!

Oh, for the love of...

They were going for COVERT INSERTION.

They have at least a 9th level Wizard, and supposedly much larger resources at home base (e.g. Aarindarius?).

And here they are, teleporting into enemy territory and in fact INTO THE MIDDLE OF ENEMY TROOPS while NOT BEING INVISIBLE and SILENCED.

They begin by entering into a pointless battle with enemy mooks which could have easily been avoided through use of INVISIBILITY, SILENCE and FLYING.

Moreover, the fact that they've teleported straight into a patrol means they DID NOT BOTHER TO SCRY FIRST. Chances are, neither do they have any form of true seeing currently in effect.

Off the top of my head, here's what could have gone wrong with their "kick in the door" "infiltration":

1. Simplest case: the cleric might have managed to survive the surprise round (blind luck or an unforeseen factor such as an invisible bodyguard), and cast Dancing Lights, thereby alerting the headquarters, with Xykon, Redcloak & Tsukiko teleporting in the next round and annihilating this entire worthless bunch of "superagents";

2. The enemy patrol might have been accompanied by one invisible member, who quietly slunk off and alerted the headquarters;

3. One of the goblins (cleric? commanding officer?) might have been equipped with a CONTINGENCY SENDING or TELEPORT item (invaluable for any scout team), which would have been triggered by the "infiltrators" attack and hence immediately inform headquarters;

4. Xykon might have had one of his Scrying Eyes in the area (with his caster level, he can create tons), or might have been looking through his crystal ball (which we know he has), or been utilising any other scrying instrument to survey his borders - after all, he's an undead who doesn't need to sleep or eat, can only devote 8 hours per day to crafting, and is extremely bored most of the time; and Xykon would be on alert considering the recent events;

5. One of Xykon's minions might have been using a crystal ball to survey the pass (obviously one of the chokepoints of entry into the Cloistered realm);

6. The pass might have been under a Permanent Alarm;

7. Any number of other dangers easily averted by a simple combination of Invisibility, Silence, Fly and Scry.

Of course, that wouldn't give us the "dramatic" appearance of the party.

However, in my book, teleporting blindly into an enemy patrol and proceeding to openly slaughter a bunch of 1st level hobgoblins does nothing to prove the "Peregrines" capability as infiltrators. On the contrary, it proves their incompetence and lack of realistic foresight.

Not the first time it happens in the comic, though.

[Undead Prince]

And waste valuable Spells?

They don't know when the will have the next chance to rest, so it is only logical to safe the spells for real threads and let the meelee fighters dispose of the minor enemies.

I am sorry, but a 9th level Wizard would have hundreds of scrolls readily available to cast from. Not to mention wands & staffs. For a Wizard of that magnitude, especially considering the profit he makes from crafting & selling magic items, his number of innate spells per day is not really a factor anymore.

[TengYt]

Prove they didn't scry first. Maybe they wanted to eliminate the patrol to get rid of enemy resistance in the area. Besides, the comic would be kinda dull if we had five panels of the Wizard casting buffs. It makes more sense for the spellcasters to save their slots for actual threats anyway.

[Tempest Fennac]

Those are good points, Undead Prince. I assumed they deliberately teleported there to take out that patrol due to it seemingly being near to the secret tunnels, assuming those are the ones which Haley left from.

[Undead Prince]

Prove they didn't scry first. Maybe they wanted to eliminate the patrol to get rid of enemy resistance in the area.

You mean beyond all the dangers I've already enumerated about teleporting in fully visible and engaging into open combat with the enemy border guards?

OK, sure, another example:

Hobgoblin Sergeant to Hobgoblin Lieutenant: Patrol X not reported in, sir.
Hobgoblin Lieutenant: Alert the HQ, we might have infiltrators in the area.

And what would be the point of killing a few lowly hobos anyway? If the party stays invisible, silent and flying, no hobos would ever be able to notice or touch them anyway.


Besides, the comic would be kinda dull if we had five panels of the Wizard casting buffs.

We don't need to see the casting of buffs. The party could have been portrayed as arriving invisibly (the author used outlines to portray invisibility before, e.g. in the case with V in Xykon's stronghold), perhaps dodging the same goblin patrol as well as some of Xykon's magical sensors. That could be made plenty exciting, as well as portray both the party as good infiltrators, and Xykon as someone who doesn't neglect his borders and stays alert.



It makes more sense for the spellcasters to save their slots for actual threats anyway.

See my post above. By this level, the Wizard should have so many spells up his sleeve it wouldn't bother him to spend a few.


Those are good points, Undead Prince. I assumed they deliberately teleported there to take out that patrol due to it seemingly being near to the secret tunnels, assuming those are the ones which Haley left from.

Again, there would be no point to eliminate the patrol (and risk disclosure). Under Invisibility, Silence and Fly the goblins can't detect them and are not going to be a threat.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Eh. How about somewhere in the middle? Not totally awesome best of the best, but not as incompetent as all that either. It was a nice beginning and it will be interesting to see what happens next.

[Snake-Aes]

Oh, for the love of...

They were going for COVERT INSERTION.

They have at least a 9th level Wizard, and supposedly much larger resources at home base (e.g. Aarindarius?).

And here they are, teleporting into enemy territory and in fact INTO THE MIDDLE OF ENEMY TROOPS while NOT BEING INVISIBLE and SILENCED.

They begin by entering into a pointless battle with enemy mooks which could have easily been avoided through use of INVISIBILITY, SILENCE and FLYING.

Moreover, the fact that they've teleported straight into a patrol means they DID NOT BOTHER TO SCRY FIRST. Chances are, neither do they have any form of true seeing currently in effect.

Off the top of my head, here's what could have gone wrong with their "kick in the door" "infiltration":

1. Simplest case: the cleric might have managed to survive the surprise round (blind luck or an unforeseen factor such as an invisible bodyguard), and cast Dancing Lights, thereby alerting the headquarters, with Xykon, Redcloak & Tsukiko teleporting in the next round and annihilating this entire worthless bunch of "superagents";

2. The enemy patrol might have been accompanied by one invisible member, who quietly slunk off and alerted the headquarters;

3. One of the goblins (cleric? commanding officer?) might have been equipped with a CONTINGENCY SENDING or TELEPORT item (invaluable for any scout team), which would have been triggered by the "infiltrators" attack and hence immediately inform headquarters;

4. Xykon might have had one of his Scrying Eyes in the area (with his caster level, he can create tons), or might have been looking through his crystal ball (which we know he has), or been utilising any other scrying instrument to survey his borders - after all, he's an undead who doesn't need to sleep or eat, can only devote 8 hours per day to crafting, and is extremely bored most of the time; and Xykon would be on alert considering the recent events;

5. One of Xykon's minions might have been using a crystal ball to survey the pass (obviously one of the chokepoints of entry into the Cloistered realm);

6. The pass might have been under a Permanent Alarm;

7. Any number of other dangers easily averted by a simple combination of Invisibility, Silence, Fly and Scry.

Of course, that wouldn't give us the "dramatic" appearance of the party.

However, in my book, teleporting blindly into an enemy patrol and proceeding to openly slaughter a bunch of 1st level hobgoblins does nothing to prove the "Peregrines" capability as infiltrators. On the contrary, it proves their incompetence and lack of realistic foresight.

Not the first time it happens in the comic, though.

Actually, most of these precautions would be set by redcloak, not Xykon. He kind of doesn't give a damn as long as he can keep blurting magical items and beating O-Chul.

Are they really likely to have invisibility, though? We know these are mooks, so they don't get priority equipment, which removes any chance of them having any lasting resource of invisibility. Redcloak and Xykon just won't burn that many Invs(if redcloak even has it) spell slots/scrolls to make invisible mooks on every patrol. The same goes for Contingency.

Alarms on chokepoints are likely, as is the crystal ball.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I agree with Undead Prince. They're a bunch of clods. :smallamused:

[Killer Angel]

Of course, that wouldn't give us the "dramatic" appearance of the party.

However, in my book, teleporting blindly into an enemy patrol and proceeding to openly slaughter a bunch of 1st level hobgoblins does nothing to prove the "Peregrines" capability as infiltrators. On the contrary, it proves their incompetence and lack of realistic foresight.

Not the first time it happens in the comic, though.


After all, OotS is the work of an artist, so the "dramatic appearance" trumps our players tactical considerations.

A debatable point, is that the group could have made a cool appearance, without risk anything: they pop, and they are portrayed "invisible" (as Vaarsuvius Vs Xykon), as they speak with "italic" letters (simulating a "message"?). Then they report the beginning of the infiltration, while the mooks walk happy and with no knowledge of the incoming threat...

Maybe the thing is wanted: they feel strong and they enter showing muscles, to bring help with that sense of elven superiority showed by V.... which won't bring anything good to them.

[King of Nowhere]

Yes, probably it was better to skip those mooks, unless they wanted to clear the way for a greater army.
Yet it was cool.

[Snake-Aes]

Yes, probably it was better to skip those mooks, unless they wanted to clear the way for a greater army.
Yet it was cool.

Their approach can't be that one, since the elven nations all seem to be on the opposite continent. As you saw with the Peregrines, there will be lots of summoning.

[Dark Faun]

It's entirely possible the elves, being, well, elves, are too conceited to consider Xykon and/or the hobgoblins smart enough to use tricks to detect them.

Tempest Fennac brings up a good point. It was my first idea as well. Maybe the mooks were scouts ordered to check out whether this path led to the resistance and the Peregrine Team took them out to prevent that to happen and warn the resistance for the inevitable attack in response to the scouts disappearing.

[Snake-Aes]

It's entirely possible the elves, being, well, elves, are too conceited to consider Xykon and/or the hobgoblins smart enough to use tricks to detect them.

Tempest Fennac brings up a good point. It was my first idea as well. Maybe the mooks were scouts ordered to check out whether this path led to the resistance and the Peregrine Team took them out to prevent that to happen and warn the resistance for the inevitable attack in response to the scouts disappearing.
Would have been smarter to fool them instead.
Missing scouts = something happened
scouts reporting that they found nothing = oh well, okay then.

[Dark Faun]

Not if the scouts were bound to find the rebels for whatever reason (stumbling upon the huge "Redcloak sucks" flag for example).

Not that I'm calling Team Peregrin smart, mind you. :smallwink:

[Bibliomancer]

The standard buff spells only have a duration in minutes, and in the comic they are shown being a fair distance away from the city. Having used scrying, they find out that there is a time when they can take out one small hobgoblin group to get to their destination. Thus, they have to choose between burning 4 Invisibilities, 1 Mass Fly, and at least 1 Silence, which they might need later when they reach the actual city, OR wipe out the mooks and assume that it will be chalked up to rebel activity.

I don't believe that it is possible to summon someone from the Material Plane. However, I would love to find out that this (presumably) 9th level party consist of the newbies and the war heroes (Aarindarius, etc) are waiting for their own infiltration to occur after the base has been scouted.

[Snake-Aes]

Not if the scouts were bound to find the rebels for whatever reason (stumbling upon the huge "Redcloak sucks" flag for example).

Not that I'm calling Team Peregrin smart, mind you. :smallwink:

By fooling them I meant making them believe they found nothing. Nothing a couple illusory images can't do.

[derfenrirwolv]

Nah, real pros would have sent in bards polymorphed into hobgoblins to take the patrols place.

[Snake-Aes]

Nah, real pros would have sent in bards polymorphed into hobgoblins to take the patrols place.

That's much more expensive and riskier
1) A group of disguised people mean they have to watch closely a lot of patterns the hobs use. Which means disguise checks. Which means one is bound to fail.
2) For mooks, it's much easier to have magical awareness in a headquarter than in a scouting group. The bards' disguise would be at risk again
3) Dead Bards are not useful.
This means you have better chances fooling the scout, that will then proceed to report the wrong information, but at this point no one has a reason to even disbelieve it.

[David Argall]

As said, the entry of the elves was drawn to be dramatic, not realistic.

[Optimystik]

Sneaking in under cover of illusion would be quite boring, and indicate to the readers that Peregrine is extremely weak. Perhaps they advertised their presence a touch more than a real-life team would have, but it was necessary for the narrative that we know the Elves aren't sending their green recruits.

Besides, every goblin they kill is one less for the resistance to fight later.

[Snake-Aes]

Sneaking in under cover of illusion would be quite boring, and indicate to the readers that Peregrine is extremely weak. Perhaps they advertised their presence a touch more than a real-life team would have, but it was necessary for the narrative that we know the Elves aren't sending their green recruits.

Besides, every goblin they kill is one less for the resistance to fight later.

Not weak, no. The risks of being detected do not encompass them alone, but the whole resistance. If they get caught? What if through them, the resistance hideout is discovered? What if they die before fulfilling their task of bringing in reinforcements?

When the risk of being detected is alerting a whole army, you either are a decoy/bait or you don't want to do it. Extra for the high level enemies.

[Optimystik]

When the risk of being detected is alerting a whole army, you either are a decoy/bait or you don't want to do it. Extra for the high level enemies.

When they begin their insurgency they're going to alert the whole army anyway. It's not like they're going in to steal something. Why not kill some mooks where they can?

[Ancalagon]

Besides, every goblin they kill is one less for the resistance to fight later.

Dude, don't forget the Kobold Menace!

[derfenrirwolv]

That's much more expensive and riskier

[QUOTE]1) A group of disguised people mean they have to watch closely a lot of patterns the hobs use. Which means disguise checks. Which means one is bound to fail.

Thats why you use bards. Its not like low level patroll people come in direct contact with their superiors all that often.



2) For mooks, it's much easier to have magical awareness in a headquarter than in a scouting group. The bards' disguise would be at risk again

ring of non detection.



3) Dead Bards are not useful.

But they're no longer bards, its a win win!



This means you have better chances fooling the scout, that will then proceed to report the wrong information, but at this point no one has a reason to even disbelieve it.

But as it is, the chances of somoene not noticing that something happened to a patrol, right near the cave entrance, is zero. Those guards WILL be wanted back at some point.

Hmmmm... mayby they could have ported in a guardian monster and framed it for the squads death...

[Malek2991]

The lost Patrols would not cause them to be detected... The Hobgoblins do not know Haley left and are most likely to blame any dead Hobgoblins on her and the Resistance.

Plus if they used Invisibility to fool a bunch of low level Hobgoblins, then they might not have those resouces available later when they would be more useful, unless they can rest and prepare spells. (Invisibility, Polymorph, and Invisibility Sphere last 1 min/level, while Alter self/Disguise Self 10 mins/level, but only affect the caster) It would also require 1 casting per char of Invis/Polymorph per person(1 Invisbility sphere would affect them all).

Furthermore that assumes they can even cast Invisibility, If the Wizard is a specialist and prohibited Illusion and Transmutation for example.

[Snake-Aes]

The lost Patrols would not cause them to be detected... The Hobgoblins do not know Haley left and are most likely to blame any dead Hobgoblins on her and the Resistance.

That'd be a traditional villainous mistake. If your patrol does not return, do you just ignore it and send a replacement? No. You investigate.


Plus if they used Invisibility to fool a bunch of low level Hobgoblins, then they might not have those resouces available later when they would be more useful, unless they can rest and prepare spells. (Invisibility, Polymorph, and Invisibility Sphere last 1 min/level, while Alter self/Disguise Self 10 mins/level, but only affect the caster) It would also require 1 casting per char of Invis/Polymorph per person(1 Invisbility sphere would affect them all).

Furthermore that assumes they can even cast Invisibility, If the Wizard is a specialist and prohibited Illusion and Transmutation for example.
A level 9 wizard could make that party invisible and still have most of it's spells for that day and level. Alternatively it could be cast by another person on the elven side, or even a scroll. 4 or 5 flying invisible peregrines could easily be done.

[Thalnawr]

The standard buff spells only have a duration in minutes, and in the comic they are shown being a fair distance away from the city. Having used scrying, they find out that there is a time when they can take out one small hobgoblin group to get to their destination. Thus, they have to choose between burning 4 Invisibilities, 1 Mass Fly, and at least 1 Silence, which they might need later when they reach the actual city, OR wipe out the mooks and assume that it will be chalked up to rebel activity.

I don't believe that it is possible to summon someone from the Material Plane. However, I would love to find out that this (presumably) 9th level party consist of the newbies and the war heroes (Aarindarius, etc) are waiting for their own infiltration to occur after the base has been scouted.

There is actually one way to summon someone from the Material plane, a spell called Refuge. Also, we know of another spell Dorukan used to summon Lirian, using some kind of summoning circle. Whatever this spell is, it's not unreasonable to assume the elves would have equipped their intrusion team with scrolls or a magic item that allows them to use that spell.

They did however mention in the Sending that they were to rendevous with Thanh and coordinate further insertions. Given the Cloister effects, there aren't many ways they could get messages from Elven high command to receive their orders. Some kind of Epic communication spell (which high command may have), Instant Summons (to summon a logbook detailing orders), or the summoning circle spell to summon in new troops who would each present updates to the orders. I'm just going to assume they used Greater Teleport to get there, since it has no range limit or error probability, especially since I have no idea how far away the Elven nation is in the Stickworld, and regular Teleport only has a 100 mile per level range. That assumption puts Instant Summons in range of their wizard.

[Undead Prince]

The lost Patrols would not cause them to be detected... The Hobgoblins do not know Haley left and are most likely to blame any dead Hobgoblins on her and the Resistance.

This means Tsukiko and her Black Squadron. And they will certainly be able to report back that this is much more than just another Resistance strike.

Moreover, don't forget that Xykon is on Red Alert now. He knows the elves, or some other power, are on to him.


Plus if they used Invisibility to fool a bunch of low level Hobgoblins, then they might not have those resouces available later when they would be more useful, unless they can rest and prepare spells.

AGAIN, a 9th level Wizard has PLENTY of spells through scrolls, wands, staffs etc. And by plenty I mean plenty. Thirty 6-spell scrolls take only 1 month of work by one wizard to scribe, and that's 180 spells of any level available to him right there. Did I say "work"? I meant "no work at all", since with the Quill of Scribing the scrolls write themselves while the wizard rests. Selling these scrolls with Master Artisan brings a hefty profit, which can be used to make, well, more scrolls. Become rich and more powerful at the same time. By level 9, the Wizard has far more power at his fingertips than the meager "spells per day" would indicate.


(Invisibility, Polymorph, and Invisibility Sphere last 1 min/level, while Alter self/Disguise Self 10 mins/level, but only affect the caster)

A high-level caster should have cast these spells on them before they teleported in. That way, the party wizard would still have all his spells per day, whatever they're worth.

An alternative measure is simply to get ONE Ring of Invisibility for the entire party. Endless supply of Invisibility spells, each lasting 5 minutes, just use the ring by each member in a row.


Furthermore that assumes they can even cast Invisibility, If the Wizard is a specialist and prohibited Illusion and Transmutation for example.

Then he's a moron? And the Elven Command are double morons for sending a wizard with banned Illusion and Transmutation as an infiltration team's only arcane caster.

Still, both of my examples stand: prior buffing by another spellcaster, or a use-activated magic item.

Also, don't forget the cleric. Since she's supposedly an infiltration specialist, she could have the Trickery domain (base domain from PHB), which would give her Invisibility, Disguise Self, Nondetection, Confusion and False Vision - all great spells for sneaking and misleading.


When they begin their insurgency they're going to alert the whole army anyway. It's not like they're going in to steal something. Why not kill some mooks where they can?

Because they're risking Xykon frying their pathetic butts? Or, better, controlling and making them spill all the elven plans?

Also, why bother with the "infiltration" at all then? Why not a full-scale assault under the element of surprise?

Oh yeah, the enemy has an epic sorcerer lich, a bunch of other high-level casters, and an undead/hobgoblin army in a huge fortress. Not a particularly easy target, if you ask me.


Sneaking in under cover of illusion would be quite boring, and indicate to the readers that Peregrine is extremely weak.

You mean jeopardizing the supposed "secrecy" of your mission right from the get-go is not weak and stupid? Or maybe you think killing a few 1st level hobos is an indication of strength? Belkar single-handedly killed a mountainful of them back during the siege, and didn't even get any XP for that.

As to excitement, I fail to see any in squashing a few bugs. It would be far more exciting to see the infiltrating party successfully (i.e. stealthily) overcome a somewhat more level-appropriate challenge (e.g. Xykon/Redcloak's traps & scrying sensors).

Remember Tom Cruise's famous infiltration scene in Mission Impossible? It wouldn't have been as exciting if all he had to do was knock out a single old bald security guard, now would it? The excitement came precisely from the need of the hero to stay stealthy while overcoming numerous dangerous obstacles.


Are they really likely to have invisibility, though? We know these are mooks, so they don't get priority equipment, which removes any chance of them having any lasting resource of invisibility. Redcloak and Xykon just won't burn that many Invs(if redcloak even has it) spell slots/scrolls to make invisible mooks on every patrol. The same goes for Contingency.

Regardless of the hobos' equipment, Xykon and Redcloak are likely to have some sort of effective border control. Whether it is supplying every patrol with a relevant magic item or an inherently invisible creature (a Commanded Shadow would do the trick, especially if it keeps moving underground), or special powerful units patrolling independently of the hobos (Vampires?), or 24/7 scrying (crystal balls with sleepless undead watchers etc.), or permanent alarms on chokepoints, or all of the above and more - it's unreasonable to proceed from the assumption that an epic-level caster and his own personal army would be sloppy with defenses. V found that out the hard way.


As said, the entry of the elves was drawn to be dramatic, not realistic.

Drama is inherently grounded in reality (or whatever passes for reality in a D&D online comic). If the reader does not believe in the danger and the challenge, there is no effect when the hero triumphs.


I don't believe that it is possible to summon someone from the Material Plane.

Assuming by "summon" you mean "call" (which is what Dorukan was probably doing with Lirian):

Step 1: The target creatures Plane Shift to another plane.

Step 2: The caller casts Gate and names the target creatures.

Not as complex as it may look, since a Gate scroll can be bought and successfully cast from by a caster of much lesser level than 17.

[Skorj]

4. Xykon might have had one of his Scrying Eyes in the area (with his caster level, he can create tons), or might have been looking through his crystal ball (which we know he has), or been utilising any other scrying instrument to survey his borders - after all, he's an undead who doesn't need to sleep or eat, can only devote 8 hours per day to crafting, and is extremely bored most of the time; and Xykon would be on alert considering the recent events;


Your other points were convincing, but I can'y see Xykon scrying the borders looking for trouble ever. His boredom threshhold is a matter of seconds. Now, if the Tivo could filter all the Scrying Eyes for him, that might be a threat.


I am sorry, but a 9th level Wizard would have hundreds of scrolls readily available to cast from. Not to mention wands & staffs. For a Wizard of that magnitude, especially considering the profit he makes from crafting & selling magic items, his number of innate spells per day is not really a factor anymore.

How much does a scroll weigh in 3.5? I wouldn't think a typical "STR is my dump stat" wizard could carry hundreds. Though a couple dozen 6-spell scrolls still makes your point, I'm curious about the rule. Plus aren't there a bunch of low-level spells that when used by a high-level wizard against low-level mooks are "no save, just suck"?

[AstralFire]

I'm glad the comic no longer is based strictly on 3.5 D&D. With luck, perhaps - perhaps - over time, the number of analyses we get about how unoptimal a character action was given the strict structures and oversights made in D&D will drop dramatically.

Maybe.

[Thalnawr]

Your other points were convincing, but I can'y see Xykon scrying the borders looking for trouble ever. His boredom threshhold is a matter of seconds. Now, if the Tivo could filter all the Scrying Eyes for him, that might be a threat.



How much does a scroll weigh in 3.5? I wouldn't think a typical "STR is my dump stat" wizard could carry hundreds. Though a couple dozen 6-spell scrolls still makes your point, I'm curious about the rule. Plus aren't there a bunch of low-level spells that when used by a high-level wizard against low-level mooks are "no save, just suck"?

Xykon also possibly still thinks that V's attack was an arcane George Mallory attempt, and may not be concerned about a "lame mid-level" wizard getting away enough to bother scrying for attacks. Especially since he knows that V bumbled the attempt so horribly, and lost the power that allowed it in the first place.

3 words for the carrying-capacity question, since item creation is being brought into this. Heward's Handy Haversack.

[Undead Prince]

I'm glad the comic no longer is based strictly on 3.5 D&D.

The 4th edition (much as I despise it) still offers a lot more in terms of infiltration than "kick in the door".

And if you mean D&D as a whole, last time I checked FAQ #1 still stands.


With luck, perhaps - perhaps - over time, the number of analyses we get about how unoptimal a character action was given the strict structures and oversights made in D&D will drop dramatically.

Maybe.

And I desperately hope that one day, maybe, people will stop claiming how cool, smart and pro an obviously ineffectual and self-defeating course of action is.

It's not even merely a question of ignorance with regard to the rules by which the OoTS world supposedly operates. It's the lack of basic common sense which sometimes annoys me.

And don't think I'm standing in any major disagreement with the author of the comic here. You do remember the heated discussions caused by V's ineffectual behaviour during the soul-splice? Well, what do you know, the author has given us express acknowledgement, through V himself, that V's strategy was indeed lacking and below-par.

Bottom line is: I abhor it when people demand that others stoop to their own low standards. If you can't think of a smart strategy, don't go dissing those who can.

[Shatteredtower]

That'd be a traditional villainous mistake. If your patrol does not return, do you just ignore it and send a replacement? No. You investigate.

Eventually. Even in standard circumstances for the occupying army, it may be a few hours before the patrol was expected to report in. Even twenty minutes will be more than enough time, especially if you've disabled the group most likely to discover you en route to your destination.

With most of the hobgoblin forces currently preoccupied with the search for an enraged lich's phylactery, a missing patrol is likely to go unnoticed until the more immediate problem has been resolved.


A level 9 wizard could make that party invisible and still have most of it's spells for that day and level. Alternatively it could be cast by another person on the elven side, or even a scroll. 4 or 5 flying invisible peregrines could easily be done.

Sure, but is it a good idea?

The problem with using invisibility and flight to invade a city under the thrall of two powerful spellcasters is how much more exposed that combination leaves you against a monitoring system that makes effective use of divination magic. See invisibility and true seeing are the bane of invisible flyers, but neither spell is any good against an elven strike team with a certain culture's set of cloaks and boots, especially if they're using the rules for teamwork benefits.

Magical "alarm systems" can also be set to a wider range of detection when they're focused on airborne intrusion. Sure, you can bypass such things with an extra level of magical preparation, but invisibly breaking into a city while disguised as crows also involves risks.

Still, better than trying to combine silence with invisibility and flight. Four intruders that need to stay very close to each other in order to stay hidden, yet who can neither see nor hear one another to communicate, are not operating as efficiently as they could be, even if you throw a telepathic bond into the mix with everything else.

[Susano-wo]

The only thing that doesn't sound right about the OP's points is scrying. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but wouldn't Cloister prevent that?

And yeah, patrols are moving, living alarms. That's the whole point, so if htey do not return, the whole place will be on alert. (and not just a Metal Gear Solid 2 minute alert, either :P)
Infiltration is much tougher than a lot of people realize--mostly because writers of popular fiction rarely care enough to thing through what would realistically happen. And of course, sometimes, its more fun to let the impossible thing succeed, as long as some facsimile or appropriate measures and countermeasures have been undertaken.

[Snake-Aes]

Eventually. Even in standard circumstances for the occupying army, it may be a few hours before the patrol was expected to report in. Even twenty minutes will be more than enough time, especially if you've disabled the group most likely to discover you en route to your destination.

With most of the hobgoblin forces currently preoccupied with the search for an enraged lich's phylactery, a missing patrol is likely to go unnoticed until the more immediate problem has been resolved.



Sure, but is it a good idea?

The problem with using invisibility and flight to invade a city under the thrall of two powerful spellcasters is how much more exposed that combination leaves you against a monitoring system that makes effective use of divination magic. See invisibility and true seeing are the bane of invisible flyers, but neither spell is any good against an elven strike team with a certain culture's set of cloaks and boots, especially if they're using the rules for teamwork benefits.

Magical "alarm systems" can also be set to a wider range of detection when they're focused on airborne intrusion. Sure, you can bypass such things with an extra level of magical preparation, but invisibly breaking into a city while disguised as crows also involves risks.

Still, better than trying to combine silence with invisibility and flight. Four intruders that need to stay very close to each other in order to stay hidden, yet who can neither see nor hear one another to communicate, are not operating as efficiently as they could be, even if you throw a telepathic bond into the mix with everything else.

Definitely, a decent group of sneakers would be more effective on that matter, but that is still thrown off by the fact they popped in the middle of a patrol and killed it anyway. For that alternative to work, they could simply scry a little and pick a good moment, or even port a few hundred meters out of sight.

[Undead Prince]

Xykon also possibly still thinks that V's attack was an arcane George Mallory attempt, and may not be concerned about a "lame mid-level" wizard getting away enough to bother scrying for attacks. Especially since he knows that V bumbled the attempt so horribly, and lost the power that allowed it in the first place.

Xykon was aware of possible threats, and "the elves" were #1 on his threat list (obviously, since V was an elf, but still). Redcloak did manage to convince him to install the very expensive traps in the throne room; with Red's pedantic thinking and six months of preparation, why would the borders be neglected?


Your other points were convincing, but I can'y see Xykon scrying the borders looking for trouble ever. His boredom threshhold is a matter of seconds.

Well, he could be "surfing the channels", checking out what's happening in different parts of his realm. He is severely bored, after all.


Now, if the Tivo could filter all the Scrying Eyes for him, that might be a threat.

That, or just put an undead minion to monitor the borders 24/7.


How much does a scroll weigh in 3.5?

Weightless. Goes as "paper" or "parchment" in the PHB gear list.


I wouldn't think a typical "STR is my dump stat" wizard could carry hundreds.

He could carry an infinite amount. And with nice items like Infinite Scroll Case they're retrieved as part of a Move action.

The Infinite Scroll Case weights 3 lbs and holds 50 scrolls. It's very cheap (only 1,400 gp to make even without various discounts, caster level 9th). For comparison, a naked Old Human Wizard who never put any points in STR can carry up to 50 lbs of stuff.

However, do you seriously think a 9th level Wizard has any problems with Strength? Magic Jar is a 5th level spell, just take over the body of one of your Fire Giant Skeletons and you have a base Strength of 31 (35 with Corpsecrafter) - more than a Fighter of your level could ever dream of getting. That would give you a carrying capacity of, ahem, 1600 lbs.


Plus aren't there a bunch of low-level spells that when used by a high-level wizard against low-level mooks are "no save, just suck"?

The best spells against low-level fodder are the trusty two-handers of your undead giant minions. Of which you have many by level 9.

Spell-wise, though, most low-level mass-effect spells have some sort of saving throw/escape possibility. The best of them are good because they affect a large area, somehow slow the enemy even on a successful saving throw, and offer immobilisation on a failed save.

[AstralFire]

Bottom line is: I abhor it when people demand that others stoop to their own low standards. If you can't think of a smart strategy, don't go dissing those who can.

Yes, V's actions were unoptimal - and I agree with that. Not to derail the thread by starting that over again.

I really do not think that every minor NPC makes it their first priority to craft every day, however - even the bright ones - and it feels like too much of a direct rules focus rather than looking at the comic as a story to expect that all of them do. They may or may not. Xykon certainly spends every day crafting magic items (I believe, or maybe I read that as a theory here), but I don't think we ever see Vaarsuvius craft a single one. And while Vaarsuvius is not exactly optimal Wizard Supreme, I don't believe we're supposed to view him as borderline incompetent either.

The Giant clearly knows his mechanics well enough, but the main point of OotS is to be a comic which can be broadly followed by fans of the genre. It's like how Belkar stabs people and they die in one hit even though it's been proven that it's not mechanically possible for this to work with standard 3E monster rules and have them be a challenge for the rest of the party.

[Optimystik]

Because they're risking Xykon frying their pathetic butts? Or, better, controlling and making them spill all the elven plans?

Also, why bother with the "infiltration" at all then? Why not a full-scale assault under the element of surprise?

Because they're out to install themselves as a guerilla element, not start another war. I'm not saying full stealth would have been better or worse than what they did, merely that it really doesn't matter. By the time central command or whoever notices that the patrol is missing, the hit-and-run tactics inside the walls will have commenced.


Oh yeah, the enemy has an epic sorcerer lich, a bunch of other high-level casters, and an undead/hobgoblin army in a huge fortress. Not a particularly easy target, if you ask me.

Don't you think the current resistance is aware of that? Yet they are fighting anyway.


You mean jeopardizing the supposed "secrecy" of your mission right from the get-go is not weak and stupid? Or maybe you think killing a few 1st level hobos is an indication of strength? Belkar single-handedly killed a mountainful of them back during the siege, and didn't even get any XP for that.

The object of the "pop-and-kill" approach Peregrine used was to show that they are seasoned fighters who aren't afraid of goblins. Sneaking past them wouldn't have illustrated that point as effectively.


As to excitement, I fail to see any in squashing a few bugs. It would be far more exciting to see the infiltrating party successfully (i.e. stealthily) overcome a somewhat more level-appropriate challenge (e.g. Xykon/Redcloak's traps & scrying sensors).

Then feel free to draw up your own comic where this happens. Clearly the Giant disagrees with you.

(A stealth segment could even still happen; they aren't inside the walls yet. Calm down.)


Remember Tom Cruise's famous infiltration scene in Mission Impossible? It wouldn't have been as exciting if all he had to do was knock out a single old bald security guard, now would it? The excitement came precisely from the need of the hero to stay stealthy while overcoming numerous dangerous obstacles.

When you've gotten to the point where you're telling other people what they should consider exciting, further argument is meaningless.

[Arkenputtyknife]

The only thing that doesn't sound right about the OP's points is scrying. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but wouldn't Cloister prevent that?
You're forgetting that they teleported in, which means they had to arrive outside the Cloister's area of effect.

[Armitage]

Bottom line is: I abhor it when people demand that others stoop to their own low standards. If you can't think of a smart strategy, don't go dissing those who can.
Well, you're obviously one of those playes that know every rule by heart and read up about every item ever mentioned in official sources.

I got to admit: I can not discuss with you on that level.
I don't know that much about the rules, and what I know is mostly 2nd edition.


But where PCs and NPCs to you seem to be breed and purpose-made for one task and don't waste any skillpoints, I'm used to play characters that have not only a story, but also a life. That have imperfect stats, make wrong decisions, miss some of the gold and magic items that the GM put out there for them and generally care more about enjoying the ride rather than being perfect weapon for their player.


If you have fun spending hours consulting the rule books and pondering the best way to plan a mission, so be it.
I still prefer playing it by heart, even if my ideas are imperfect or even bad.

[Snake-Aes]

Because they're out to install themselves as a guerilla element, not start another war. I'm not saying full stealth would have been better or worse than what they did, merely that it really doesn't matter. By the time central command or whoever notices that the patrol is missing, the hit-and-run tactics inside the walls will have commenced.

They already expressed their initial goal is to infiltrate, contact the resistance and bring support. Stealthier IS better in this case, because any time they go without an alert is more time to prepare.


Don't you think the current resistance is aware of that? Yet they are fighting anyway.

Yeah but news of a new group - specially one capable of showing up suddenly and brutally - would be much more alarming.


The object of the "pop-and-kill" approach Peregrine used was to show that they are seasoned fighters who aren't afraid of goblins. Sneaking past them wouldn't have illustrated that point as effectively.

That is up to the artist's willingness to expend time and creativity. If eating potato chips have already been made an epic scene, this one sure can to.


(A stealth segment could even still happen; they aren't inside the walls yet. Calm down.)

Yeah, it definitely can, but from a tactical point of view, they wasted a perfectly good chance of not arising unnecessary suspicion.

[Snake-Aes]

Well, you're obviously one of those playes that know every rule by heart and read up about every item ever mentioned in official sources.

I got to admit: I can not discuss with you on that level.
I don't know that much about the rules, and what I know is mostly 2nd edition.


But where PCs and NPCs to you seem to be breed and purpose-made for one task and don't waste any skillpoints, I'm used to play characters that have not only a story, but also a life. That have imperfect stats, make wrong decisions, miss some of the gold and magic items that the GM put out there for them and generally care more about enjoying the ride rather than being perfect weapon for their player.


If you have fun spending hours consulting the rule books and pondering the best way to plan a mission, so be it.
I still prefer playing it by heart, even if my ideas are imperfect or even bad.

I'm afraid that does not apply to the scene being questioned here right now. You are talking about a team specifically sent to infiltrate. It is only logical that the institution that sent them(whoever the military are in their elven nation) would definitely want to accomplish that goal in the best manner possible, which includes FULL stealth. Killing mook patrols is not full stealth, it arises suspicions.

[Undead Prince]

Yes, V's actions were unoptimal - and I agree with that.

Good, so you agree the characters can behave ineffectually/outside common sense/stupidly. What's wrong with criticising them in this case? But, I'm not even criticising the characters here. I'm standing up against the sweeping idea that the "infiltration party"'s actions were efficient and marked them as "pros".


I really do not think that every minor NPC makes it their first priority to craft every day, however - even the bright ones... Xykon certainly spends every day crafting magic items (I believe, or maybe I read that as a theory here)

Xykon himself mentioned he's spending 8 hours every day crafting items (and that he has to somehow enternain himself during the other 16). He's smart enough to do that, and he's a sorcerer - i.e. by character class favors Charisma over Intelligence and does not have the many bonus item-creation feats that the Wizard gets. Isn't it reasonable to suppose that a Wizard worth his socks would indeed invest into creating magic items, as this is the single most direct and efficient way for a Wizard to gain wealth, power, you name it?

In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, for instance, what is Faerun's main Wizard-run nation engaged in? Crafting and exporting magic items on a global scale. That's Thay I'm talking about, by the way.


but I don't think we ever see Vaarsuvius craft a single one. And while Vaarsuvius is not exactly optimal Wizard Supreme, I don't believe we're supposed to view him as borderline incompetent either.

When it comes to being a Wizard, Vaarsuvius suffers from what a polite doctor would term clinical mental deficiency. He basically admits this himself in his latest epiphany. I would never seriously consider V as an example of proper Wizarding.


The Giant clearly knows his mechanics well enough, but the main point of OotS is to be a comic which can be broadly followed by fans of the genre.

No one's disputing that, and I'm not nitpicking. The points I make mostly refer to simple common sense and the most basic rules of D&D (i.e. Core).


It's like how Belkar stabs people and they die in one hit even though it's been proven that it's not mechanically possible for this to work with standard 3E monster rules and have them be a challenge for the rest of the party.

The creatures Belkar kills in one hit never were a challenge to the party, or even Belkar solo for that matter. It has been specifically highlighted in the comic by stating Belkar doesn't even get XP for his one-shot kills, meaning they are far below his level in terms of challenge rating. Get your facts straight 8=)

[Armitage]

When it comes to being a Wizard, Vaarsuvius suffers from what a polite doctor would term clinical mental deficiency. He basically admits this himself in his latest epiphany. I would never seriously consider V as an example of proper Wizarding.
You just made my day.

[veti]

That'd be a traditional villainous mistake. If your patrol does not return, do you just ignore it and send a replacement? No. You investigate.

Not in Team Evil's present position, you don't. You chalk it up to the resistance (which you already know about), and get on with searching for the phylactery.


You mean jeopardizing the supposed "secrecy" of your mission right from the get-go is not weak and stupid? Or maybe you think killing a few 1st level hobos is an indication of strength?

I'm thinking of it as a workout. Something to boost the guys' morale. If they've been pretty much at peace for the last 50 years or so, it'll take a few minutes at least for them to re-accustom themselves to the smell of blood and the sounds of splortch and schlrkt. Best to warm up with something easy.

There's also the morale effect on the enemy. If patrols go out and just don't come back, despite all the fancy-schmancy alarm schemes and precautions, then pretty soon even well-disciplined troops will get nervous, spend more time being jumpy and mistrustful, and losing faith in their commanders' ability to keep them safe. That sort of thing takes its toll even in the short run. If the resistance can keep it up for more than a couple of months, it'll destroy their morale.


Regardless of the hobos' equipment, Xykon and Redcloak are likely to have some sort of effective border control.

You're forgetting the whole setup dialogue with O-Chul. One thing the Azurites and their allies do know is Xykon's current status: Highly Distracted.

We don't even know if the hobbos in the strip are a "patrol", or just a random squad moving from one place to another, for reasons that would be too boring to think about even if we could know them. Maybe they're on their way out of the city to garrison one of the guard towers. Maybe they're making their way around to some nearby beach, on the offchance that the phylactery washed up there. Seriously, we don't know.


Drama is inherently grounded in reality (or whatever passes for reality in a D&D online comic). If the reader does not believe in the danger and the challenge, there is no effect when the hero triumphs.

It seems to me that your idea of "reality" is a world in which ordinary people have their tactics honed by having played different characters in different campaigns, and talked to dozens of others who've done the same.

My idea of "reality" is that most people only get one life; they have a limited circle of friends and resources; they have real lives to get on with, and only limited time to think about hypothetical military scenarios. Hence, a lot of the time, they will follow very sub-optimal strategies, because they don't have anything like as much knowledge or time as any of us. In real wars, lots of people die for exactly those sorts of reasons. The survivors learn better, but not until after they've survived.

In short: I think they're mid-level, brave, and doing pretty well for the moment. I hope they make it.


Bottom line is: I abhor it when people demand that others stoop to their own low standards. If you can't think of a smart strategy, don't go dissing those who can.

And I abhor it when people assume that anyone who doesn't see strategy the same way they do is just dumb. Maybe your plans could be better. But Team Peregrine undoubtedly have constraints and pressures that we're not aware of. We don't know what factors go into their decision-making. So cut them some slack - it's their lives they're risking, they're not only better placed but also better motivated than we are to come up with strategies that offer the best combination of survival and success chances, given their goals, their resources and their subjective decision-making process.

[Undead Prince]

Even in standard circumstances for the occupying army, it may be a few hours before the patrol was expected to report in. With most of the hobgoblin forces currently preoccupied with the search for an enraged lich's phylactery, a missing patrol is likely to go unnoticed until the more immediate problem has been resolved.

Perhaps. But: was the stupid skirmish still worth the risk?


Even twenty minutes will be more than enough time, especially if you've disabled the group most likely to discover you en route to your destination.

Seeing how they're going on foot to a city which is way at the horizon and over the mountain range, I'd speculate it's going to take them a bit longer than 20 minutes.


The problem with using invisibility and flight to invade a city under the thrall of two powerful spellcasters is how much more exposed that combination leaves you against a monitoring system that makes effective use of divination magic. See invisibility and true seeing are the bane of invisible flyers, but neither spell is any good against an elven strike team with a certain culture's set of cloaks and boots, especially if they're using the rules for teamwork benefits.

First of all, that's exactly what I'm talking about - the danger is not in a bunch of 1st level hobgoblins, it's in the extensive anti-infiltration measures taken by the enemy high-level casters.

Second, low to medium level remote scrying sensors (such as Clairvoyance and regular Prying Eyes) don't actually allow the use of magically enhanced senses. Scrying does, but it's a spell aimed at a specific creature, with a long casting time and short duration, therefore not useful for monitoring borders.

See Invisibility can work through a crystal ball, but is fooled by regular hiding (at which the infiltrators should be adept). True Seeing spots hiding creatures, but does not work through crystal balls or scrying spells.

So defense against infiltration should indeed be many-layered. And stealthily overcoming these layers of defense is what would have marked an infiltration team as "pro". Not barging in blindly and killing the border guards.


Magical "alarm systems" can also be set to a wider range of detection when they're focused on airborne intrusion. Sure, you can bypass such things with an extra level of magical preparation, but invisibly breaking into a city while disguised as crows also involves risks.

Now that would have been exciting to watch, now would it?


Still, better than trying to combine silence with invisibility and flight. Four intruders that need to stay very close to each other in order to stay hidden, yet who can neither see nor hear one another to communicate, are not operating as efficiently as they could be, even if you throw a telepathic bond into the mix with everything else.

You're thinking in the right terms 8=) But the difficulty you describe is easily overcome by one of several methods:

1. Simply hold hands and you won't lose the others or fall out of the invisibility circle;

2. Don't use Mass Invisibility; use the regular version, it lasts much longer and gives each party member a personal invisibility effect, so no need to remain within 10 ft of each other. With a single Ring of Invisibility, or a Wand of Invisibility, the issue is solved perfectly;

3. Telepathic Bonds, or better yet a singe Helm of Telepathy on the team commander actually offer excellent communication.

4. With Flying, the main source of decamouflaging sound - body movement - is nullified, and the need for Silence is drastically reduced. It's still better with Silence when sneaking through tight spaces with many guards, though.

[Lappy9000]

The elvish party, that is. I was very impressed with them as soon as I saw them. FOr killing the goblins so easily? Nope. Because the Wizard did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is the sign of a logical party. Let the melee do everything until you are needed. Yay apathy!The elf is clearly a sorcerer.

[King of Nowhere]

I always wondered how the resistance could stay hide for so long without mid level magical support. Tsukiko can teleport and know Haley personally, so she should have used scry and die, bringing Redcloak and Xykon with her. The resistance raided the city for months, yet their headquarters (THREE resistance groups) were never discovered. It just taks one scrying.
Reveal location is an 8th level clerical spell, Redcloak could use it to find the place. Remember, divination is allowed from inside the cloister.
It seems to me there's a strong lack of efficiency in the city's defence. Maybe Xykon don't care about it, but Redcloak surely do, yet the resistance still moves without many troubles.

I agree that killing the patrol was not th ebest way to infiltrate. We can think several reason to make it a suboptimal choice rather than an awful one. But I don't think team peregrine will have trouble for this...

[Undead Prince]

Not in Team Evil's present position, you don't. You chalk it up to the resistance (which you already know about), and get on with searching for the phylactery.

There's still Tsukiko and her wights, on call against the resistance. And while Xykon & Redcloak are indeed busy searching for the phylactery, they're also badly pissed and in high alert status. Chances are, upon hearing of border disturbance, they'd prefer to devote a minute to dealing with the potential threat, and continue searching for the phylactery afterwards.



I'm thinking of it as a workout. Something to boost the guys' morale... There's also the morale effect on the enemy.

This is all nice, but aren't you forgetting that the prime quality of infiltration is, well, stealth? Killing mooks for workout and morale effect is certainly not the way to proceed with a supposedly covert operation, right?


If patrols go out and just don't come back, despite all the fancy-schmancy alarm schemes and precautions

My point was precisely that we haven't seen any alarm schemes and precautions yet, and "team Peregrin"'s tactics don't seem to take into account such schemes/precautions.


You're forgetting the whole setup dialogue with O-Chul. One thing the Azurites and their allies do know is Xykon's current status: Highly Distracted.

Distracted, but also alerted, pissed, and out for blood. Xykon could eagerly jump at the chance to vent his frustration on a bunch of elven invaders.


We don't even know if the hobbos in the strip are a "patrol"

Whatever they are, they'll probably be missed. Knowing how pedantic and disciplined hobgoblins are, all units are probably required to constantly report in, and are under close supervision by superior officers. And whatever the sitch with the hobos, "Peregrins" still revealed themselves pretty spectacularly to any scryers etc. in the area.


It seems to me that your idea of "reality" is a world in which ordinary people have their tactics honed by having played different characters in different campaigns, and talked to dozens of others who've done the same.

Isn't that what the "Elven Command" is supposed to be? A bunch of people (well, humanoids) representing different classes and with extensive first-hand experience in many campaigns? Taking into account elven lifespan, they would be far more experienced than our real-life generals. I'm not even talking about the supposedly genius-level intelligence, guru-level wisdom and fuhrer-level charisma that D&D characters' ability scores ought to represent.

In short, D&D characters ought to be far more adept at doing their job than the best D&D player on Earth.


My idea of "reality" is that most people only get one life

Not true in D&D on many levels. First, there's Raise Dead, Resurrection, Reincarnation and True Resurrection (available for reasonable prices at the many clerical outlets). Second, there are the extensive lifespans of some races (notably elves). Third, there's immortality offered by undeath and other methods such as possessing bodies with Magic Jar. Fourth, Epic mages can simply prolong their natural lifespan indefinitely via epic spells (although by that point I don't see why they'd need to, as more effective forms of immortality are available earlier).


they have a limited circle of friends and resources

A D&D wizard would not only be a member of a Mages' Guild, but also a collegiate at some of the various knowledge-gathering bodies such as the Paragnostic Assembly, Spire College of Thaun, Cult of the Dragon, or the many regional establishments (Red Wizard Schools of Magic deserve a particular notion). He would have a Mentor early in his career, and later on have a cohort and many followers. He would have hirelings, contacts and acquaintances. Imagine a well-established real world professor (you know, universities, chair meetings, international conferences, seminars, academies etc), who's at the same time a capitalist (owner and operator of a profitable business), and a diplomat (self-evident), and an intelligence operative (constantly scanning for threats and fishing for information), and a military commander (with a compact but powerful army), and a tyrant (benevolent or malevolent, your choice, but a personal domain is basically a subfeature of the Wizard class).

In short, he is not alone, and has a lot of resources.


they have real lives to get on with

With the main goal being achieving the most personal power using the most expeditious means possible. What, you mean you're not Neutral Evil? 8=)


and only limited time to think about hypothetical military scenarios

Again, in our case we supposedly have an entire Command of high-level centuries-old elven warmakers, a "crack team" of operatives, and six months (or was it nine months?) to think about hypothetical military scenarios against Xykon's stronghold.


Hence, a lot of the time, they will follow very sub-optimal strategies, because they don't have anything like as much knowledge or time as any of us.

Yeah, like those 20+ Intelligence and Wisdom scores don't mean squat, and neither do huge ranks in Knowledge (warmaking).


In short: I think they're mid-level, brave, and doing pretty well for the moment. I hope they make it.

If you're talking about the Peregrine squad, I believe they're mid-level, brave, stupid, and hopefully will die a slow agonizing death real soon 8=) After all, Xykon needs a little pick-me-up after all the recent disappointments 8=)))


And I abhor it when people assume that anyone who doesn't see strategy the same way they do is just dumb.

Don't you be putting words in my mouth 8=) I never called anyone dumb here, nor do I consider anyone here dumb. I was just disagreeing with 1) the belief that the "Peregrines" are "pros", and 2) the belief that strategy, common sense and D&D rules are not important in the comic and should not be discussed on the forum.

If you're talking specifically about the characters, then I don't really see a strategy at all - at least not in the "covert infiltration" department.


Team Peregrine undoubtedly have constraints and pressures that we're not aware of. We don't know what factors go into their decision-making. So cut them some slack - it's their lives they're risking, they're not only better placed but also better motivated than we are to come up with strategies that offer the best combination of survival and success chances, given their goals, their resources and their subjective decision-making process.

That was a wonderful speech, and I applaud you for it, but may I also remind you that the Darwin prize (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_prize) is constantly claiming new winners 8=)) and the Peregrines sure seem fine candidates.

[Undead Prince]

I agree that killing the patrol was not th ebest way to infiltrate. We can think several reason to make it a suboptimal choice rather than an awful one. But I don't think team peregrine will have trouble for this...

To be fair, I'm not entirely sure of there being no trouble. We all know the author favours uncanny twists in his story. Could be that the Peregrines are walking into a very nasty trap with a very pissed Xykon or Redcloak at the end.

[EleventhHour]

To be fair, I'm not entirely sure of there being no trouble. We all know the author favours uncanny twists in his story. Could be that the Peregrines are walking into a very nasty trap with a very pissed Xykon or Redcloak at the end.



Or maybe the Wizard/Sorcerer has Illusion specialized and thier going to pretend to be hobgoblins? :smalltongue:


/silly speculation

(Spoilered just in case!)

[Bibliomancer]

Undead Prince, is the main reason that you consider the Peregrine team stupid that they killed some hobgoblins, thus notifying Xykon of their presence? I don't think that they did, unless the Resistance has killed 0 hobgoblins in the past 6-9 months. Since they have killed hobgoblins (which we see Haley doing), we can assume that Xykon doesn't care, given that neither he nor Redcloak found any one of the 3 bases operating in their territory during that time. Thus, this method saved valuable scrolls and/or spell slots, while also reducing the numbers of the enemy available to fight later.

Also, it is very hard to optimize without seeing the rules in question, and even if the characters can (PCs demonstrate this to a limited extent), not everyone can control the circumstances of their birth. Thus, the truly optimized assault party hasn't been born yet. Also, since the Elven High Command is so uncannily good at their job, their goal might be to re-take the city in 100 years, with the best course of action involving making the rulers complacent with a few failed assaults in the intervening decades. Keep in mind, elves have a much longer attention span and time frame than humans.

[Undead Prince]

But where PCs and NPCs to you seem to be breed and purpose-made for one task and don't waste any skillpoints, I'm used to play characters that have not only a story, but also a life. That have imperfect stats, make wrong decisions, miss some of the gold and magic items that the GM put out there for them and generally care more about enjoying the ride rather than being perfect weapon for their player.

So you think only unoptimized characters can be considered to "have a life"?

I beg to differ. My latest character, for instance, had a very fulfilling "life", so to speak. A life of pursuit for knowledge, power, and vengeance; a life fully dedicated to the service of his cruel dark goddess; a life of enjoying the many pleasures his wealth and power offered him (and also gleaning pleasure from the small things). He set his sights high, and shot far; risked much for the grand prize. He was always on the brink, the fringe, pushing forward, never complacent. In this quest, he was guided by the beacons of intelligence, wisdom and a vast array of knowledge; good charisma and a way with people aided in establishing him in business and society, offered the foundation upon which his true aspirations would emerge. As soon as he had the necessary resources, he turned to undeath - so as to dispense with the failings of his weak body, and to obtain the eternal clarity of mind offered by this blessed state. His ultimate goal is obscured in the darkness of his ambition and the whispers of his secretive deity - but it transcends the Planes themselves.

Imperfect stats? My Wizard started out as an Old Human. He had a boost to mental stats, but a much more significant penalty to physicals. In addition, I never put any points into his STR and CON. As a result, in the beginning he was fragile like glass and weak like a kitten (well, not actually like a kitten, but pretty weak 8=)) Many players would have termed these stats imperfect, and downright hazardous. Yet, it was the kind of uncompromising character I wanted to play - one who would rather outwit danger and pay for experience in others' blood rather than his own.

And no matter how crazy-prepared you may be, you'll always make wrong decisions at some point or other. It's unavoidable. You, the player, are by default much dumber and more fallible than the genius, knowledge-filled character you're playing; so you make mistakes more often than he actually would.


If you have fun spending hours consulting the rule books and pondering the best way to plan a mission, so be it.
I still prefer playing it by heart, even if my ideas are imperfect or even bad.

Well, thumbs up and all the best to you, then 8=) players like yourself certainly make tabletop roleplay a richer and more fun experience. But it does not mean that others, the ones who pore over rulebooks, are not playing by heart.

[Snake-Aes]

Or maybe the Wizard/Sorcerer has Illusion specialized and thier going to pretend to be hobgoblins? :smalltongue:


/silly speculation

(Spoilered just in case!)
On such cases, it's much easier to fool the hobos, making then finish their route without seeing anything that they'd otherwise find, and they'd happily go back to their squad report that nothing is there. It'd be an EXTRA defense because it'd take longer to check that place again.
And if they really had to hear what those soldiers have, scrying is your friend.



The peregrines' action so far is equivalent to mooning your enemy mid-battle. They are likely to lose a round doing trying to understand "what the hell was that?", but the next round you'll only have an angry enemy and your soft, unprotected butt.

[Undead Prince]

Because they're out to install themselves as a guerilla element, not start another war. I'm not saying full stealth would have been better or worse than what they did, merely that it really doesn't matter. By the time central command or whoever notices that the patrol is missing, the hit-and-run tactics inside the walls will have commenced.

It does matter because they're going against a powerful enemy who could incinerate all of them in a matter of seconds. An enemy with extensive access to scrying techniques, an enemy whose underlings run a very tight ship organization- and security-wise. An enemy who's been fighting a resistance movement for several months already, and who's been recently slapped into frantic action thanks to - wait for it - a sudden intrusion by a certain elf. An enemy who, in his present state, would like little more than to torture and kill a few elf invaders.

In these conditions, stealth is Peregrines' only chance of survival. And they seem intent on blowing it right from the start. Real professionals, they.



The object of the "pop-and-kill" approach Peregrine used was to show that they are seasoned fighters who aren't afraid of goblins. Sneaking past them wouldn't have illustrated that point as effectively.

I think I've already pointed this out several times, but oh well. Killing the hobos means NOTHING in terms of them being seasoned fighters. The hobos are gnats, really. A 1st level fighter could kill a hobgoblin in 1 hit. They've got 6 hp, yep, that's right. And a Challenge Rating of 1/2.

So the "Peregrines" gained nothing from killing the hobos, except the enormous risk of disclosure and failing the entire operation.

In terms of introducing them as characters, the Wizard's Teleport was a far more impressive feat of power than the slaughtering of the hobos. So, all the slaughter did was introduce the team as particularly ineffective infiltrators. And that's how I see them now (not a big fan of the "Elven Command" as well).


Then feel free to draw up your own comic where this happens. Clearly the Giant disagrees with you.

Wow, a really mature argument there 8=) You're certain the Giant agrees with you on all these points, right?


(A stealth segment could even still happen; they aren't inside the walls yet. Calm down.)

First off, I'm not anxious and not in need of calming down.

Second, you've missed my entire point. I don't care what happens later. I only objected against the claim that strip #670 portrayed the "Peregrines" as efficient and professional infiltrators.



When you've gotten to the point where you're telling other people what they should consider exciting, further argument is meaningless.

Wait, weren't you the one who complained that without the bloodshed it would have been boring? Yep, it was you, and right in your previous post no less:


Sneaking in under cover of illusion would be quite boring

to which, surprise, I replied with the "excitement" argument. So, you're the one who started projecting personal entertainment values here. Get off the high horse, you're wanted on the ground.

[JonestheSpy]

It seems to me the Undead Prince and the others that agree with him argue from the point of view that everyone has access to every spell and any magic item in the book, pretty much any time they want it (at least if they've got the money, as one would assume the elven government would).

Myself, I just loathe that kind of campaign, and the attitudes of entitlement it generates. And while the OotSworld is definitely a magic-rich place, it doesn't seem quite as ubiquitous as UP & Co's scenarios would dictate. High level folks are likely to have a few potions and scrolls around, but not that many, and other magic is relatively uncommon too, usually one or two items per PC it seems - and those are the folks who go adventuring looking for the stuff. Haley's got a bow, her bags of holding and now a dagger, Roy has his Starmetal sword (which was a whole sidequest in the getting) and his Bag o' Tricks, Elan's got his rapier and elven boots, and we're pretty sure Belkar's daggers are magic [edit: And he's got his ring of jumping]. Durkon has his Amulet of Natural Armor, V has a Ring of Wizardry, and neither have anything else except a small number of scrolls and potions - not a wand or staff to be seen.

That being said, I don't think it all unlikely that the elves teleported in without knowing what would await them, and their almost instantaneous wiping out of the hobgoblin patrol (without using any spells) certainly signifies competence in my book.

Other edit: We can safely assume the elves AREN'T scrying, or the elven cleric wouldn't have had to Message back that they'd succeeded.

[Undead Prince]

Undead Prince, is the main reason that you consider the Peregrine team stupid that they killed some hobgoblins, thus notifying Xykon of their presence?

The killing itself is really just a secondary factor. The primary factor being that the infiltration team opened itself to the possibility of being spotted by the many magical and mundane means at the enemy's disposal. Anything from a scrying sensor to a zombie harpy high in the sky could have noticed the team's completely overt actions. They've turned infiltration into open assault for no good reason, and that's that.


I don't think that they did, unless the Resistance has killed 0 hobgoblins in the past 6-9 months. Since they have killed hobgoblins (which we see Haley doing), we can assume that Xykon doesn't care, given that neither he nor Redcloak found any one of the 3 bases operating in their territory during that time.

At the same time, Xykon's forces developed a fairly effective mechanism of pinpointing and containing/eliminating active resistance groups on the ground. Even if the attack is attributed to Resistance, the Peregrines still risk a scry-and-die assault by Tsukiko's Black Squadron.


Thus, this method saved valuable scrolls and/or spell slots

For the umpteenth time, a couple of 2nd/3rd level spells in whatever form are of no noticeable value to a 9th level wizard.


while also reducing the numbers of the enemy available to fight later

Have you ever played chess? Would you take an enemy pawn now, if it means you'll lose the entire game one move later?


Also, it is very hard to optimize without seeing the rules in question

D&D characters are aware of the laws of their world; characters with high Intelligence, Wisdom, and Knowledge more so than others.


and even if the characters can (PCs demonstrate this to a limited extent), not everyone can control the circumstances of their birth. Thus, the truly optimized assault party hasn't been born yet.

Have I ever commented on the Peregrine party's builds? No - because builds are irrelevant. They are of a certain level (at least a 9th level Wizard in the party); they have access to certain resources (same Wizard, plus Elven Command) - thus, they should be able to produce some things regardless of their particular character builds.

Of course, if you tell me the Wizard has banned Illusion and Transmutation, and the Elven Command has no access to low-to-mid level magic items, then yes, the situation would be different. In that case I would wonder why bother with infiltration at all, seeing how the elven nation is so obviously not equipped to conduct such operations.


Also, since the Elven High Command is so uncannily good at their job, their goal might be to re-take the city in 100 years, with the best course of action involving making the rulers complacent with a few failed assaults in the intervening decades.

Good call 8=) Team Peregrine, codename "Failed Assault #1". I like it 8=)

[Undead Prince]

It seems to me the Undead Prince and the others that agree with him argue from the point of view that everyone has access to every spell

Huh? Regarding the Peregrines, I only mentioned Invisibility, Fly and Scrying - spells that are a staple to any Wizard and are in fact part of the wizard archetype, - and Silence, a very well-known and useful infiltration/anti-caster spell. They're all from the PHB, they're all known in OoTS - in fact, even the fail-mage Vaarsuvius knows Invisibility, Fly and Scrying (an enhanced version of the latter), and uses them extensively. Why would a mage who supposedly specialises in infiltration, and/or his elven superiors, not have access to these spells?


and any magic item in the book, pretty much any time they want it (at least if they've got the money, as one would assume the elven government would)... we're pretty sure Belkar's daggers are magic. I don't think Durkon or Varsuvius have anything except a small number of scrolls and potions.

Haley is very rich, but she prefers to pool her money for the bailout instead of investing in magic items. Belkar has his Ring of Jumping +20; Durkon's got a Medallion of Natural Armor and a heirloom warhammer (probably enchanted); V has a Headband of Intellect +4 and a (formerly Xykon's) Ring of Wizardry; the entire party probably has enchanted their weapons and armor at some pitstop town or other.

Xykon has a plethora of magic items, including a scrying cube, and is constantly churning out more (while Tsukiko's making new undead and Redcloak presumably fortifies the city and environs). Just because we don't see V crafting doesn't mean every other caster out there sits on his hands.


Myself, I just loathe that kind of campaign, and the attitudes of entitlement it generates.

Huh, really? So, you would forbid the wizard to scribe scrolls? Oh wait, that's a basic feature of the class! How about forbidding the cleric to turn undead, or the rogue to pick locks? After all, even the fighter's swinging sword generates an "attitude of entitlement" - to the monsters' loot!


That being said, I don't think it all unlikely that the elves teleported in without knowing what would await them, and their almost instantaneous wiping out of the hobgoblin patrol (without using any spells) certainly signifies in my book.

If they knew they were teleporting straight into an enemy patrol, and did it anyway - well, that makes it all the sadder in my eyes.

[JonestheSpy]

Note, while Undead Prince was writing, I realized I forgot about Itempalooza and went back and edited the extra stuff in. Still doesn't amount to a whole lot compared to the whole wealth-by-level suggested standard.

So, I done got ninja'd there.

[Snake-Aes]

The thing about resources is quite simple: The spells required to scry an area they could teleport in are available to any wizard over level 7, which is actually lower than what our displayed peregrine wizard has currently.
They have an "elven command". Like I said before, it' only natural for such an organization to optmize their chances of success.
Now think about what happened there with the mooks thing

1) they were no threat, and a wizard with enough power to pop in like that can easily(and a dozen scrolls IS cheap for a wizard of that level, or at least a group of that level) mask them. Plus as infiltrators, they are expected to at least be subtle enough to sneak on their own.
2) They know, from O-Chul's report (Durkon just sent a message for Hinjo to them, and probably others with any useful info), that Xykon is zomgupsetandbusy, so it is a good time to go unnoticed.

When you know you face an army of mooks and a squad of people who can fulminate you in 1 round, you know your best chance is to go unnoticed through the mooks. This is accomplished with stealth.

Sure, they could easily beat the next few blocks of mooks.
Sure, they have a fair chance of being ignored for as many time as they need, since they're busy with the philactery.
The true question is not whether or not they can pull it off. The question is:
Is risking an early spotlight "worth it"? Can their goal(In this case, reaching the resistance) be better completed if you run those risks?

To those that thing such kind of reasoning is not fun on an adventure: this is not an adventure. What we have with the peregrines is a military squad with an assigned task. People on that field must work towards the fastest, cleanest possible way of completing their tasks, it's what they are expected to do.


If anyone can explain me what those risks they just took reward towards their stated goal: Infiltrate and Aid the Resistance.

[veti]

When you know you face an army of mooks and a squad of people who can fulminate you in 1 round, you know your best chance is to go unnoticed through the mooks. This is accomplished with stealth.

Unless you count the genre rules, which say it's not a real infiltration if you don't have to stealthily mug at least a couple of sentries. In that case, beating up a few mooks absolutely is their job. It's what mooks are for (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mooks).

Edit: Xykon himself demonstrates, at the beginning of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, that he personally believes in this ethos. When he tells Redcloak how to deploy the monsters: "Lowest level minions nearest the entrance, in small groups." Redcloak suggests it'd make more sense to put his strongest creatures near the entrance, then intruders would never even get to the low-level ones, but Xykon explicitly overrules him.


If anyone can explain me what those risks they just took reward towards their stated goal: Infiltrate and Aid the Resistance.

Morale. Theirs, the resistance's, and the enemy's. As I've said before in this thread, if these elves haven't seen combat in a few (human) lifetimes, they'll need to reaccustom themselves to it - what better way than with a zero-risk encounter? In the process, they demonstrate to the resistance that they're not just plebs, but at least mid-level. (The resistance don't have to personally witness the fight - it'll be enough for the elves to tell them about it.) And they ensure that at least one enemy patrol dies without trace. That's bad for the hobgoblins' morale, particularly for faith in their leaders.

I'm not saying it's a great strategy, but it's not completely pointless.

Finally: aren't elves "Usually Chaotic Good"? Chaotics are, by definition, less likely to be systematic and optimal about whatever they do. That may mean they're not as effective as they could be, but the upside is, they're unpredictable and difficult to counter.

I think these guys are doing a fine job. Let 'em get on with it.

[Dancing_Fox]

One point that I don't feel fits the "covert scenario" was Team Peregrine "calling in" all of the information.

I don't know if it is possible to "intercept" a "Send" message.

However, it seems to be that a lot of important information is given away that could be observed and reported on.


After all, the Elven Command who sent them knows who they are, where they were being teleported to, what their goals were. This is not the type of information to be giving out to anyone who may be eavesdropping, just as a standard practice.

As others have pointed out, at the least there could have been unseen spies watching or listening.

In the movie The Dambusters, when they radioed in their report they didn't give a full description of blowing up the dam, their location, their numbers and so forth. A simple codeword "It's Digger!"

If the aim was exposition, it would have been better to have another panel showing Elven Command doing the wrap up. "Team Peregrine has been inserted and is proceding to redezvous with designee 'Thanh.'"

Depending on how much of the message was "Sent", then Team Peregrine have potentially told spies:

Team Peregrine >> Their codename that identifies them to Elven Command
to Elven Command >> Who sent them
Covert >> The style of mission that they were on
insertion >> What they were doing
succesful >> How they judged their first action (Plus "mispelled" it.)
Will penetrate >> What they are doing next
Cloistered territory >> Where
on foot >> Travel method
and rendezvous >> next action
with designee "Thanh" >> with which secret identity
to coordinate further insertions. >> and why.
Liberation >> Next main goal
commencing >> When it is starting.

All in all, they could have telephoned (ravened?) in their intentions, if by chance they were observed during this sending.

If a Send was necessary then better to have "Team Peregrine is tasting marmalade." or some other agreed on code.

Unless they WANTED to possibly be observed, as a decoy.

In short - my objection in this post is to the radio send. I think it would have been wiser to communicate differently with Elven Command, and that we could have got the plot exposition from someone safely away from Team Peregrine.

[Snake-Aes]

Morale. Theirs, the resistance's, and the enemy's. As I've said before in this thread, if these elves haven't seen combat in a few (human) lifetimes, they'll need to reaccustom themselves to it - what better way than with a zero-risk encounter? In the process, they demonstrate to the resistance that they're not just plebs, but at least mid-level. (The resistance don't have to personally witness the fight - it'll be enough for the elves to tell them about it.) And they ensure that at least one enemy patrol dies without trace. That's bad for the hobgoblins' morale, particularly for faith in their leaders.

I'm not saying it's a great strategy, but it's not completely pointless.

Finally: aren't elves "Usually Chaotic Good"? Chaotics are, by definition, less likely to be systematic and optimal about whatever they do. That may mean they're not as effective as they could be, but the upside is, they're unpredictable and difficult to counter.

I think these guys are doing a fine job. Let 'em get on with it.
I don't believe "Morale boost" here is appliable at all, and even if it is, it's not worth the risk of rising suspicion before the time. First because, well, these are mooks. They killed them all in the surprise round alone. That's more of a morning push-up than a refreshing battle.
And the resistance... the mere presence of these elves there will be enough of a raise, don't you think so? Were you in the resistance for half a year now, and hear "ooo now we got some elite elves to help us!", will it really make a big difference you appended "that happened to kill a half dozen of the 20 thousand goblins" to it? I wouldn't be particularly thrilled at that extra.

<hob soldier> Supreme Leader, we have report of two missing patrol groups from routes 13 and 45.
<RC> Okay. <checks the appropriate channels on Teevo> ...
<RC> Lord Xykon, there is a group of elves infiltrating the city right now.
<Xykon> THEN KILL THEM ALL!

Things can easily go downhill from there.

[Ozymandias9]

The elves know that Xykon is predisposed looking for his shiny soul bauble. Moreover, they know that most level and disposition of the standard patrols from Haley's information. IF they are prepared to prevent dancing lights casts, they have little reason to avoid the standard patrol. And since they have a balanced party, they have better options for retreating if a signal does get off. And if no signal goes off, Team Evil has no indication that this represents something other than the standard operations of the resistance.

If they expect to have any difficulty reaching the resistance, they are probably saving their resources in case they come across a threat that they cannot effectively deal with without the use of limited resources. If they expect that they can sufficiently neutralize the threat of the patrols without use of spell slots, they should.


AGAIN, a 9th level Wizard has PLENTY of spells through scrolls, wands, staffs etc. And by plenty I mean plenty. Thirty 6-spell scrolls take only 1 month of work by one wizard to scribe, and that's 180 spells of any level available to him right there. Did I say "work"? I meant "no work at all", since with the Quill of Scribing the scrolls write themselves while the wizard rests. Selling these scrolls with Master Artisan brings a hefty profit, which can be used to make, well, more scrolls. Become rich and more powerful at the same time. By level 9, the Wizard has far more power at his fingertips than the meager "spells per day" would indicate.

Guhh. Meta-gaming. Do you really believe that the average wizard, a member of a generally academic profession, would be willing to expend resources in such a manner rather than magical study and research? Some wizards, yes. Most wizards, no.
Moreover, scrolls take XP: scribing them in bulk is always a questionably believable endeavor.

It is reasonable, however, to assume that Elven Command might have a stockpile.


Then he's a moron? And the Elven Command are double morons for sending a wizard with banned Illusion and Transmutation as an infiltration team's only arcane caster.

He may have taken them for personal (read: flavor) reasons. And if he's otherwise skilled (high move silently, initiative, hide, etc.), why not send him?


Also, don't forget the cleric. Since she's supposedly an infiltration specialist, she could have the Trickery domain (base domain from PHB), which would give her Invisibility, Disguise Self, Nondetection, Confusion and False Vision - all great spells for sneaking and misleading.

Or she could worship the standard elven gods from the culture she was raised in.


Also, why bother with the "infiltration" at all then? Why not a full-scale assault under the element of surprise?

Depends on available troop numbers. If they are unwilling or unable to commit sufficient troops, then utilizing the summoning loophole will allow them higher success rates in further infiltration.


You mean jeopardizing the supposed "secrecy" of your mission right from the get-go is not weak and stupid? Or maybe you think killing a few 1st level hobos is an indication of strength? Belkar single-handedly killed a mountainful of them back during the siege, and didn't even get any XP for that.

Again, so long as they have a method to deal with signaling, there is no reason to expect the entry to jeopardize the assault as long as they are speedy.


As to excitement, I fail to see any in squashing a few bugs. It would be far more exciting to see the infiltrating party successfully (i.e. stealthily) overcome a somewhat more level-appropriate challenge (e.g. Xykon/Redcloak's traps & scrying sensors).

It's a closing scene: it's primary purpose is to set the tone for the liberation, and only secondarily make us impressed of the actual participants.


Regardless of the hobos' equipment, Xykon and Redcloak are likely to have some sort of effective border control. Whether it is supplying every patrol with a relevant magic item or an inherently invisible creature (a Commanded Shadow would do the trick, especially if it keeps moving underground), or special powerful units patrolling independently of the hobos (Vampires?), or 24/7 scrying (crystal balls with sleepless undead watchers etc.), or permanent alarms on chokepoints, or all of the above and more - it's unreasonable to proceed from the assumption that an epic-level caster and his own personal army would be sloppy with defenses. V found that out the hard way.

They protected the throne room, where Xykon personally resided. The elves know he has no vested interest in the city as a whole. They're hopping across an ocean soon: no reason to burn resources more than necessary on somewhere that doesn't matter. And while Xykon does have an army, it is an army with relatively limited resources: the hobos is unlikely to be able to be able to mount such defenses in significant quantity and Xykon is unlikely to be inclined to do so.


Drama is inherently grounded in reality (or whatever passes for reality in a D&D online comic). If the reader does not believe in the danger and the challenge, there is no effect when the hero triumphs.

Drama, and fiction in general, depend on balancing the limits of suspension of disbelief and excitement stemming conflict of the plot. This clearly was intended to support the later. While it broke the balance for you, it clearly worked for others.

[Skorj]

Many people seem to be overlooking in this discussion that Team P isn't a "normal" party of adventurers, but a military strike team. They aren't limited to Wealth By Level, but the wealth of the Elven Nation (or the portion appropriate for the importance of this mission). V's tax dollars at work.

Similarly, the amount of planning and study that players like UP like to do might not be your cup of tea, but it's exactly the right way to role play a special forces commando. Even if the members of Team P weren't smart enough to figure out the perfect insertion plan, the Elven Military presumably has guys with desk jobs and 30 INTs to do that for them.

While we can't read the rulebook for real life, we can (and do) learn a lot about optimizing a warfighter by simple observation and experimentation. The Roman Empire had a serious military R&D budget that led to inventions like the repeating ballista, and armor very well optimised to the ideal tradeoff between marching and fighting.

All of that being true, UP might nevertheless be wrong about Team P: he's assuming they didn't want to be detected. Sometimes you get to be the distraction. :smallbiggrin: I'll reserve my condemnation of Team P's tactics until we see their objectives.

[King of Nowhere]

I just realized that cloiseter targets every living creature inside its area, so that explains why the resistance never got scried upon. Still unlikely that non one got captured and dominated into telling everything.

Anyway, back on topic, maybe they WANT to draw attention in a controoled way?
Maybe they killed the patrol of one path and are sneaking through some other path while everyone look for them in the wrong place?
Maybe they studied the patrols, know that the patrol they killed will be expected to report in, say, 3 hours 47 minutes, and wants team evil to get the alarm after such time, so they got all the time to infiltrate and can do something else while everyone goes outside the city to look for them.
Maybe they have some other plan of any kind that requires to kill that patrol.
It's better to wait a few strips before concluding they're total morons

[TheGrimace]

I'm going to take this one in a slightly different direction.

Kill Hobgoblins = Superiors know that something is wrong

Figuring out what is wrong = Not searching for phylactery

[Killer Angel]

So you think only unoptimized characters can be considered to "have a life"?

I beg to differ. My latest character, for instance, had a very fulfilling "life", so to speak. A life of pursuit for knowledge, power, and vengeance; a life fully dedicated to the service of his cruel dark goddess; a life of enjoying the many pleasures his wealth and power offered him (and also gleaning pleasure from the small things). He set his sights high, and shot far; risked much for the grand prize. He was always on the brink, the fringe, pushing forward, never complacent. In this quest, he was guided by the beacons of intelligence, wisdom and a vast array of knowledge; good charisma and a way with people aided in establishing him in business and society, offered the foundation upon which his true aspirations would emerge. As soon as he had the necessary resources, he turned to undeath - so as to dispense with the failings of his weak body, and to obtain the eternal clarity of mind offered by this blessed state. His ultimate goal is obscured in the darkness of his ambition and the whispers of his secretive deity - but it transcends the Planes themselves.

Sniff... i would like a player like you!

Anyway, back on topic.
I would not consider a "given fact" that the elven generals (or their high command) cannot commit silly mistakes such programming "secret" infiltration with killing mooks.
Maybe they feel strong and they enter showing muscles, to bring help with that sense of elven superiority showed by V.... which won't bring anything good to them.
IN real history, we've plenty of examples of seasoned and experienced generals committing terrible mistakes because they were too much self-confident. this is true also for nations: overconfidence can extends his influence to an entire military empire (example (http://www.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/isandlwana.htm)).

So, the elven team can be professional and, at the same time, act stupidly.

[Hurkyl]

Huh, really? So, you would forbid the wizard to scribe scrolls?
One of the main jobs of the Dungeon Master is to manage the game mechanics so that they don't degenerate.



So you think only unoptimized characters can be considered to "have a life"?
The wizard you described in your first posts in this thread most certainly doesn't have a life, common sense either. You want him wasting hours of his life and hundreds of gold pieces for what? To save the party's ranger from having to attack two targets in that round instead of just one?

[Kalbron]

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way.

Yes, the team are elven pros. The best at what they do.

Keep in mind however that this is a military machine that has spent 6+ months not even sending in scouts/spies to determine what the heck was going on even though their scrying was failing. And this is a city formerly belonging to a traditional ally. They had to wait until pure chance delivered them information into their laps before they would act.

Compared with that, having a team inflitrate a city by leaving a trail of blood and corpses seems positively intelligent.

[Undead Prince]

The elves know that Xykon is predisposed looking for his shiny soul bauble.

First, they do not. They really don't. V and Durkon were already gone when Xykon issued his orders re: phylactery, and the city is Cloistered from scrying.

Second, as I've already emphasised on more than one occasion, just because Xykon's looking for the phylactery doesn't mean he won't jump at the chance to inflict bloody carnage upon elven infiltrators. After all, it was an elven infiltrator that caused him all the grief in the first place.



Moreover, they know that most level and disposition of the standard patrols from Haley's information. IF they are prepared to prevent dancing lights casts, they have little reason to avoid the standard patrol.

They have HUGE reasons to AVOID the patrols while being on a COVERT mission in the territory of an OVERWHELMING enemy who is in possession of EXTENSIVE monitoring capabilities AND is pissed to the extreme by a recent invasion.

What reason do they have to actually hit the lowly patrols when they could have JUST AS EASILY AVOIDED them and KEPT THE OPERATION COVERT? None at all.

Furthermore. I seriously doubt they are indeed prepared to prevent Dancing Lights. A single hidden sentry along the way (which they are currently making ON FOOT and FULLY VISIBLE) would be enough.



And since they have a balanced party, they have better options for retreating if a signal does get off.

IF they notice the alert signal (which may be something a lot less conspicious than Dancing Lights).


And if no signal goes off, Team Evil has no indication that this represents something other than the standard operations of the resistance.

Dancing Lights from a hobo is like the LEAST danger they're exposing themselves to. Aerial recon (zombie harpies & devas of which Xykon has plenty), mobile scrying sensors (Prying Eyes etc.), Xykon's Teevo and any other crystal balls he might have crafted and assigned minions to, Alarm traps etc. etc. are all more dangerous and more likely to alert the enemy forces, which would come down on the Peregrines like a ton of bricks and annihilate them in the space of one round.


If they expect to have any difficulty reaching the resistance, they are probably saving their resources in case they come across a threat that they cannot effectively deal with without the use of limited resources.

You're not bothering to read the other posts at all, right? Here, bolded for your convenience:

1. A few second-third level spells ARE NOTHING TO A 9TH LEVEL WIZARD. NOTHING. Like 2 cents in a wallet with a wad of hundred-dollar bills. Do you see the proportion here?

2. The cost of magic items that would provide the team with continuous application of the needed spells is quite low, both to buy and to craft. The "Elven Command", having supposedly the resources of an entire nation, ought to have been able to provide its infiltration team with such items.


If they expect that they can sufficiently neutralize the threat of the patrols without use of spell slots, they should.

THERE WAS NO THREAT FROM THE PATROL. None at all. It could have been avoided by Invisibility, by sneaking, or simply by NOT TELEPORTING INTO THEIR VERY MIDST.


Guhh. Meta-gaming. Do you really believe that the average wizard, a member of a generally academic profession, would be willing to expend resources in such a manner rather than magical study and research? Some wizards, yes. Most wizards, no. Moreover, scrolls take XP: scribing them in bulk is always a questionably believable endeavor.

You have no idea what you're talking about, right?


"Questionably believable endeavour" - that's just laughable, it really is. ALL CRAFTING COSTS XP. ALL WIZARDS CRAFT, because it's SO TOTALLY WORTH IT. Wizards get BONUS CRAFTING FEATS as a CLASS FEATURE for this precise reason. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the economies of entire nations are built around crafting magic items (Thay), and the world is largely affected by such crafting (the Mythallars and the Fall of Netheril). In the Eberron Campaign Setting, basically EVERYTHING is built around crafting magic items.

About XP. Scribing a scroll with one 1st level spell costs ONE XP. A 1st level wizard can get 75 XP from killing a single cat (as in, regular cat; buy one for a copper and gut it personally, or have your hireling do it).

And about Wizards being "academics". They certainly are - if by "academic" you mean Oppenheimer, "Little Boy" and Enola Gay all rolled into a single creature, ready to go Hiroshima on your butt at a moment's notice.

Whatever goal a Wizard character would pursue in a D&D world, it would probably involve power as either the means or the ends (and that's true in most D&D novels I've read, by the way). For a Wizard, a great road to power and wealth would be crafting magic items. So whaddaya know? most Wizards do! Proved by Science.

That does not mean Wizards don't engage in scientific research - they certainly do. But, just like real-life scientists, their research tends to produce tangible valuable results - such as new powerful spells and new powerful magic items. You don't believe academics are all about pointless babble and abstract philosophy, do you?



Then he's a moron? And the Elven Command are double morons for sending a wizard with banned Illusion and Transmutation as an infiltration team's only arcane caster.

He may have taken them for personal (read: flavor) reasons. And if he's otherwise skilled (high move silently, initiative, hide, etc.), why not send him?

A Wizard can't have high Hide and Move Silently because they're not on his class skill list. He won't normally have a high Initiative because he has better things to do with his stat points than pump Dexterity, and better things to do with his feats than take Improved Initiative.

The key contributions a Wizard could make to an infiltration mission would involve spells from the Illusion and Transmutation schools. There is no point in sending a Wizard who banned these schools on an infiltration mission, just like there's no point in tasking with trapfinding a Rogue who never put any ranks into Search and Disarm Traps. Elven Command would supposedly have more qualified candidates at their disposal, seeing how they ostensibly possess the resources of the magically-inclined elven nation.


Or she could worship the standard elven gods from the culture she was raised in.

I don't know about the OoTS pantheon, but in D&D the Elven Gods that have Trickery in their domain portfolios include: Sehanine Moonbow (Faiths & Pantheons, Races of the Wild); Alobar Lorfilil (Races of the Wild); and Erevan Ilesere (Faiths & Pantheons).


It's a closing scene: it's primary purpose is to set the tone for the liberation, and only secondarily make us impressed of the actual participants.

Well, if they're gonna be as covert as that, I suppose the tone of liberation would involve splattering their insides all over the place when Xykon or one of his minions gets them.



They protected the throne room, where Xykon personally resided. The elves know he has no vested interest in the city as a whole.

Wrong on many levels.

First, we don't know how extensive Redcloak's defenses really are.

Second, the elves don't know that Xykon has no interest in the city.

Third, Redcloak has a manifest interest in the city, notably in making it as impregnable as possible as the stronghold of the Goblin Nation, and has spent the last several months doing exactly that.


They're hopping across an ocean soon: no reason to burn resources more than necessary on somewhere that doesn't matter.

More elven intruders while the phylactery's still not found? How does that not matter to Xykon? After the last elven intruder almost destroyed him and his phylactery?


And while Xykon does have an army, it is an army with relatively limited resources: the hobos is unlikely to be able to be able to mount such defenses in significant quantity and Xykon is unlikely to be inclined to do so.

Redcloak, the Hobos' Supreme Leader, would do all he can to defend the stronghold which he sees as a seed for a goblin nation. Xykon may just as likely be inclined to get some bloody vengeance on the elves. And after all, squashing the Peregrines would require only a few seconds.


Drama, and fiction in general, depend on balancing the limits of suspension of disbelief and excitement stemming conflict of the plot. This clearly was intended to support the later. While it broke the balance for you, it clearly worked for others.

I won't claim that I know what the author intended to demonstrate with this strip. It may very well be that the Peregrines' cockiness and lack of foresight would eventually lead to their defeat (that was the case with V, after all). But as you can see from this thread, I am not alone in judging the Peregrines' actions (and the Elven Command's strategy) as not up to the professional standards they could have exhibited.

[Snake-Aes]

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way.

Yes, the team are elven pros. The best at what they do.

Keep in mind however that this is a military machine that has spent 6+ months not even sending in scouts/spies to determine what the heck was going on even though their scrying was failing. And this is a city formerly belonging to a traditional ally. They had to wait until pure chance delivered them information into their laps before they would act.

Compared with that, having a team inflitrate a city by leaving a trail of blood and corpses seems positively intelligent.

I don't see being not-very-blinded by rage as "positively intelligent". Remember that you are talking about an organization here.

[Undead Prince]

Many people seem to be overlooking in this discussion that Team P isn't a "normal" party of adventurers, but a military strike team. They aren't limited to Wealth By Level, but the wealth of the Elven Nation (or the portion appropriate for the importance of this mission). V's tax dollars at work.

Similarly, the amount of planning and study that players like UP like to do might not be your cup of tea, but it's exactly the right way to role play a special forces commando. Even if the members of Team P weren't smart enough to figure out the perfect insertion plan, the Elven Military presumably has guys with desk jobs and 30 INTs to do that for them.

While we can't read the rulebook for real life, we can (and do) learn a lot about optimizing a warfighter by simple observation and experimentation. The Roman Empire had a serious military R&D budget that led to inventions like the repeating ballista, and armor very well optimised to the ideal tradeoff between marching and fighting.

QFT


All of that being true, UP might nevertheless be wrong about Team P: he's assuming they didn't want to be detected. Sometimes you get to be the distraction. :smallbiggrin: I'll reserve my condemnation of Team P's tactics until we see their objectives.

Fair enough, and I myself await somewhat eagerly the next disclosure of their endeauvours (if only in the hopes that they will be incinerated). And, again, knowing the author's penchant for plot twists, things may not at all be what they seem at a glance.

However, if Team P is indeed trying to draw the enemy's attention, you have to weigh the possible ramifications of creating such a diversion.

Once Xykon is alerted to their presence, he can scry them out (after all, Epic magic is not blocked by Cloister) and then Dominate them to learn everything about the Elven plans. Not a really good start for a major military operation. Pissed as he is, Xykon may even decide to decapitate the elven leadership before moving on to the next Gate, if only to vent his frustrated bloodlust.

I'd say that at this point, any benefit potentially gained from a diversion is far outweighed by the danger of alerting Xykon.

[Undead Prince]

One of the main jobs of the Dungeon Master is to manage the game mechanics so that they don't degenerate.

Degenerate how and into what? Have you actually read the Dungeon Master's Guide?



The wizard you described in your first posts in this thread most certainly doesn't have a life, common sense either. You want him wasting hours of his life and hundreds of gold pieces for what? To save the party's ranger from having to attack two targets in that round instead of just one?


Missing the point and not paying attention to the posts, you are.

Wasting hours of his life? Quill of Scribing, hello? Scrolls scribe themselves while wizard rests? Plus, it's not as if he has anything better to do with these 8 hours. After all, he's got 16 hours left to do whatever he needs doing (12 if he still needs trancing).

Hundreds of gold pieces? The gold you invest in crafting comes back tenfold in profits from selling crafted items and from loot gained thanks to crafted items assisting in combat. All it takes is a tiny bit of common sense and the ability to do basic math, which that 20+ Intelligence should offer. Besides, as Skorj pointed out, this is not an adventuring party - this is a military team, with the elven nation's military budget behind them.

Finally, the effect. We're not talking about saving the ranger a couple of arrows. You have obviously completely ignored the entire discussion. The issue at stake is the COVERT NATURE OF THE OPERATION. I won't waste my time reiterating stuff for you; just go read the previous posts.

[Kalbron]

An organisation which has sat on its hands for 6+ months and done nothing except lob the occasional Scrying spell at the Cloister. If they had been doing anything, Haley's information wouldn't really be needed at all.

I'd call that pretty stupid and inept to be honest. Especially for a war machine that can call on magic to remotely insert high level sneaky operatives into the region to conduct recon. It shouldn't be too hard after all to attempt to scry on the city, then progressively test if you can Scry anything 1km, 2km, 3km, etc, away from it. When you can actually see something, drop/teleport in a spy type person and have them snoop around. Spend a month experimenting with communication and the effects of the region you cannot scry if you're that nervous. There's still 5+ more for you to actively scout the city.

In 6+ months they could have easily achieved this level of recon and more. They needed months old information from Haley.

The insertion team IS the best of the best of the elves, because the elven best in OOTS isn't exactly awe inspiring. Mid level forces? Sure. INT and WIS stats above 5? Not on your life. V really is neatly representative of his race.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Well, I basically have to say that this was a Hollywood covert operations insertion, not a professional one. It's in the same category as showing special forces guys applying camo paint to their faces like some kind of ritual cosmetics rather than just smearing it on in a practical manner, or knights who fall off their horses and then can't stand up, or guns that never seem to run out of ammunition, or whatever.

In a grade B action movie, a covert infiltration team would definitely appear in their opening scene slaughtering an enemy patrol. That's exactly what's happening here.

It's purely dramatic, with no rhyme, reason, or sense to it. It's basically a trope, even if there isn't a specific trope to describe it on tvtropes (and there may be, just that I don't enjoy that site particularly, so I wouldn't know). :smallwink:

Yes, in practical terms, the Peregrine Team has an abysmal plan and/or is a bunch of militarily ignorant bunglers. That's because they're the victim of tropes, IMO, though -- the idea that every 'insertion' has to be a dramatic action scene with a pile of rapidly-slaughtered bodies of enemy mooks, wiped out to reveal the bad-a**ery of the troops involved.

So it's hard to say whether we should be calling them stupid, or the movie trope it's based on stupid. :smallbiggrin: In fact, it might be hilarious if one of them commented, in a strip or two, "this insertion would have gone a lot better if we hadn't been forced to kill those mooks first off, because of dramatic expectations ...."

[derfenrirwolv]

I always wondered how the resistance could stay hide for so long without mid level magical support. Tsukiko can teleport and know Haley personally, so she should have used scry and die, bringing Redcloak and Xykon with her

I think the caves are inside the cloister, so she can't scry there, and neither can the tivo.

[Optimystik]

It does matter because they're going against a powerful enemy who could incinerate all of them in a matter of seconds. An enemy with extensive access to scrying techniques, an enemy whose underlings run a very tight ship organization- and security-wise. An enemy who's been fighting a resistance movement for several months already, and who's been recently slapped into frantic action thanks to - wait for it - a sudden intrusion by a certain elf. An enemy who, in his present state, would like little more than to torture and kill a few elf invaders.

You're making unfounded assumptions here. For Xykon, priority 1 is finding his pricey bauble. I didn't hear him say anything about wanting to torture elf invaders, did you?


In these conditions, stealth is Peregrines' only chance of survival. And they seem intent on blowing it right from the start. Real professionals, they.

So they're going to charge down the streets howling battle cries? :smallconfused: What'll the lottery numbers be tomorrow?


I think I've already pointed this out several times, but oh well. Killing the hobos means NOTHING in terms of them being seasoned fighters. The hobos are gnats, really. A 1st level fighter could kill a hobgoblin in 1 hit. They've got 6 hp, yep, that's right. And a Challenge Rating of 1/2.

The patrols we've seen so far have had goblins with class levels, so you don't know that.


So the "Peregrines" gained nothing from killing the hobos, except the enormous risk of disclosure and failing the entire operation.

Somehow, I doubt that will be the outcome. Don't you?


In terms of introducing them as characters, the Wizard's Teleport was a far more impressive feat of power than the slaughtering of the hobos. So, all the slaughter did was introduce the team as particularly ineffective infiltrators. And that's how I see them now (not a big fan of the "Elven Command" as well).

And I don't, so I guess we're at an impasse.


Wow, a really mature argument there 8=) You're certain the Giant agrees with you on all these points, right?

He wouldn't have drawn them teleporting in guns blazing unless he wanted to, now would he?


First off, I'm not anxious and not in need of calming down.

Uh-huh.


Second, you've missed my entire point. I don't care what happens later. I only objected against the claim that strip #670 portrayed the "Peregrines" as efficient and professional infiltrators.

And I'm objecting against the claim that having them all waltz in invisible without a hitch would have been any better. They would have been even more x-factors than they are now.


Wait, weren't you the one who complained that without the bloodshed it would have been boring? Yep, it was you, and right in your previous post no less:

to which, surprise, I replied with the "excitement" argument. So, you're the one who started projecting personal entertainment values here. Get off the high horse, you're wanted on the ground.

Such bile over a comic! My goodness.

My claim was objective. Having them walk in without confrontation wouldn't have given us any idea of their strength. You're right that the teleport would have, but only for the wizard. Pop-and-kill shows that they are ruthless, surgical and efficient in just three panels.

"But hobgoblins are cannon fodder! Look how many Belkar and the ALF killed!" Yet that was to show how strong they were as well. The device remains effective here.

[Snake-Aes]

You're making unfounded assumptions here. For Xykon, priority 1 is finding his pricey bauble. I didn't hear him say anything about wanting to torture elf invaders, did you?

He didn't, but he doesn't know there are more elven invaders right now, does he? Xykon strikes me as a quite bitter person when it comes to being tricked.


So they're going to charge down the streets howling battle cries? :smallconfused: What'll the lottery numbers be tomorrow?

Now that's an exaggeration, isn't it? The thing is, killing a patrol that could otherwise report "nothing wrong there", when the alternative is incredibly easy, is an unnecessary risk. Suppose the patrol hobos are still doing their usual job, and don't receive a report. They'll send for recon, and that's always an unnecessary risk.


The patrols we've seen so far have had goblins with class levels, so you don't know that.

They all died in the surprise round. If your party is outnumbered and wins in one round, that wasn't a challenge at all.


My claim was objective. Having them walk in without confrontation wouldn't have given us any idea of their strength. You're right that the teleport would have, but only for the wizard. Pop-and-kill shows that they are ruthless, surgical and efficient in just three panels.

My take on it is that if Rich was willing to expend the time necessary to make a Mission Impossible stealth entrance(which I suppose would take a while), he could.

From a practical point of view, if their goal is solely to find the resistance and offer them help, killing those hobgoblins instead of letting they return with nothing suspicious was nothing other than an unnecessary risk.

[Thalnawr]

As far as Scrying the location they're going to land goes, the Wizard isn't going to see that patrol. The Cloister effect specifically hides all people inside it at the time of casting, and Scrying requires a known creature as a target. You can't just scry empty terrain. Of course this doesn't excuse a lack of stealth intrusion, but it does explain why they wouldn't know that anyone was at their landing point.

[Optimystik]

He didn't, but he doesn't know there are more elven invaders right now, does he? Xykon strikes me as a quite bitter person when it comes to being tricked.

I agree he's bitter, but also very preoccupied now. If he DOES decide to take a hand in weeding out the Resistance as a result of V and O-Chul's escape, he would do so whether Peregrine was present or not, and their presence really won't do much to change the outcome in that case.

More likely is that he won't lift a finger to help the goblins (he did so before - SoD) unless they challenge him directly or interfere with his search. After all, it would punish Redcloak even more, and he is the true object of Xykon's ire at the moment.


Now that's an exaggeration, isn't it? The thing is, killing a patrol that could otherwise report "nothing wrong there", when the alternative is incredibly easy, is an unnecessary risk. Suppose the patrol hobos are still doing their usual job, and don't receive a report. They'll send for recon, and that's always an unnecessary risk.

...And they find corpses, and no trace of any elves. They know there are intruders in the city, and nothing else - but they would have known that anyway once the guerrilla attacks started. We don't even know if this bumps up the timetable (for all we know, the attacks could have been slated to begin before that patrol would have reported back anyway), much less if it will attract unwanted attention. Until we know more, we can't say for sure if Peregrine's flashy entrance has changed anything at all.


They all died in the surprise round. If your party is outnumbered and wins in one round, that wasn't a challenge at all.

My take on it is that if Rich was willing to expend the time necessary to make a Mission Impossible stealth entrance(which I suppose would take a while), he could.

The entire encounter's purpose was to show us how "badass" Peregrine is. Sneaking by would not have accomplished that objective.


From a practical point of view, if their goal is solely to find the resistance and offer them help, killing those hobgoblins instead of letting they return with nothing suspicious was nothing other than an unnecessary risk.

From an equally practical point of view, every hobgoblin they kill on their way in is one less they have to kill once inside.

[Snake-Aes]

...And they find corpses, and no trace of any elves. They know there are intruders in the city, and nothing else - but they would have known that anyway once the guerrilla attacks started. We don't even know if this bumps up the timetable (for all we know, the attacks could have been slated to begin before that patrol would have reported back anyway), much less if it will attract unwanted attention. Until we know more, we can't say for sure if Peregrine's flashy entrance has changed anything at all.

Regardless of how it is attributed, a fortress' units will be alerted and investigate. One just doesn't let unpredictable deaths to go unnoticed in these places.


The entire encounter's purpose was to show us how "badass" Peregrine is. Sneaking by would not have accomplished that objective.

I specifically referred to a Mission Impossible style of infiltration, complete with sneaking past magical detectors, or fooling them.


From an equally practical point of view, every hobgoblin they kill on their way in is one less they have to kill once inside.
This is why I said it's a measured risk. Is having six less mooks of a grand total of 20 thousand worth risking an early uncover?

[Armitage]

Regardless of how it is attributed, a fortress' units will be alerted and investigate. One just doesn't let unpredictable deaths to go unnoticed in these places.
Yes, Redcloak will certainly send somebody to investigate.
And they will file the death of those goblins under "killed by the Resistance", unless they find any prove that contradicts this interpretation.

[Undead Prince]

You're making unfounded assumptions here. For Xykon, priority 1 is finding his pricey bauble. I didn't hear him say anything about wanting to torture elf invaders, did you?

You didn't? Well then, let me repeat it for you. Ahem.




WHO JUST STOLE MY KILLS?!?!?




Ring a bell?

Suffering as he is from an acute case of interrupted murder, Xykon seems pretty liable to give in to his bloodlust if adequate targets appear on his radar. And once again, disposing of the Peregrines would not take any time at all.


So they're going to charge down the streets howling battle cries? :smallconfused: What'll the lottery numbers be tomorrow?

So far that's precisely what they're doing. Appearing in the middle of enemy forces, engaging them in close combat, and proceeding to walk on foot and fully visible along a narrow mountain pass (likely one of the few entrances to the cloistered realm) straight towards the enemy stronghold.

Nothing covert in that operation, if you ask me.


The patrols we've seen so far have had goblins with class levels, so you don't know that.

We do know that a single mid-level suboptimally built halfling ranger-barbarian can slaughter hundreds of these mooks, and not even receive any XP for it.


He wouldn't have drawn them teleporting in guns blazing unless he wanted to, now would he?

You can't claim to know the author's true intent. You can only guess, along with the rest of us. Could be the Peregrines will fail. Or maybe they won't. That is not the point. The point is that so far they're behaving unprofessionally and not utilizing the very obvious methods and tactics of infiltration available to them, in favour of a risky pointless bloodshed which endangers not only their own lives, but the success of the entire operation and, more profoundly, the safety of the elven kingdom (bait Xykon one time too many, and he might decide to go exterminator on the elves).


And I'm objecting against the claim that having them all waltz in invisible without a hitch would have been any better. They would have been even more x-factors than they are now.

Who said anything about "waltzing without a hitch"? No one, correct. Moreover, other posters and myself have specifically described the more level-appropriate and engaging dangers that could have actually challenged this infiltration party and gave the Peregrines a chance to establish themselves as indeed first-class infiltrators. So far they look like a bunch of amateurs playing Rambo.


Such bile over a comic! My goodness.

Once again, you're the one who started with the bile. Stop the escalating insults.


My claim was objective. Having them walk in without confrontation wouldn't have given us any idea of their strength.

Again, you're proceeding from the false assumption that someone here claimed they should not have been given an entry confrontation. Stop fighting those windmills.


You're right that the teleport would have, but only for the wizard. Pop-and-kill shows that they are ruthless, surgical and efficient in just three panels.

Nnnno, it shows they have no recon, poor planning, no concept of covert operations, and no clue of how to use the available resources.

It's like a real-world commando team "infiltrating an enemy base" without the camouflage, in broad daylight, wearing bright orange vests, and shooting unsilenced guns left and right at passing enemy patrols.


"But hobgoblins are cannon fodder! Look how many Belkar and the ALF killed!" Yet that was to show how strong they were as well. The device remains effective here.

You just don't listen, do you? The Wizard teleporting, all of the team members being invisible, and successfully sneaking past the goblin patrol - would have given a much greater projection of power than killing these same mooks. Moreover, it would have given a projection of intelligence, competence and the stealthy nature of their mission, as well as showing some respect for the enemy.

And this is all without even the possible showing of other challenges the team might have overcome - such as successfully deceiving a scrying sensor or an alarm trap.

So far, what we can glean from these guys and their "Elven Command" is that they don't know the enemy (the magical & mundane recon capacity of Xykon's forces) and don't know themselves (have no clue of how to utilise the most basic features of their spellcasters' power). According to Sun Tzu, this would lead to disaster on the battlefield. Regardless of the outcome, it's just unprofessional, and that's that.

[Undead Prince]

As far as Scrying the location they're going to land goes, the Wizard isn't going to see that patrol. The Cloister effect specifically hides all people inside it at the time of casting, and Scrying requires a known creature as a target. You can't just scry empty terrain. Of course this doesn't excuse a lack of stealth intrusion, but it does explain why they wouldn't know that anyone was at their landing point.

When talking about scrying, I usually refer to the plethora of Divination [scrying] spells, as well as relevant magic items, not just the Scry spell per se.

You might be right about Cloister having effect on the patrol even outside its geographical area (that's what happened to Haley). And you know the fun part? This would mean that the Peregrines got incredibly lucky by landing in the middle of the patrol and not, say, a 100 ft away. Because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to eliminate the goblins in the surprise round, the goblin cleric would have cast Dancing Lights, and the operation would have been over before it began.

This just goes to show what an incredible risk the Peregrines were taking by arriving fully visible and not cloaked by the various nondetection spells they ought to have had access to on account of the 9th level Wizard and the "Elven Command".

[Optimystik]

You didn't? Well then, let me repeat it for you. Ahem.

WHO JUST STOLE MY KILLS?!?!?

Ring a bell?

"I want you all to be ready to teleport out of here two rounds after we find my phylactery, whether that takes days or months. Vacation time is over kids. Time to go back to work."

As I said, his priority now is finding his bauble, not killing insurgents.


Suffering as he is from an acute case of interrupted murder, Xykon seems pretty liable to give in to his bloodlust if adequate targets appear on his radar. And once again, disposing of the Peregrines would not take any time at all.

...If they appear on his radar. You think that killing one patrol can cause that; I don't.


So far that's precisely what they're doing. Appearing in the middle of enemy forces, engaging them in close combat, and proceeding to walk on foot and fully visible along a narrow mountain pass (likely one of the few entrances to the cloistered realm) straight towards the enemy stronghold.

Nothing covert in that operation, if you ask me.

Are you willing to wager that Team Evil won't discover them before they reach the Resistance?


We do know that a single mid-level suboptimally built halfling ranger-barbarian can slaughter hundreds of these mooks, and not even receive any XP for it.

The Order was 12-14 at that point in the story. Peregrine is unlikely to be more than 9-11.


You can't claim to know the author's true intent. You can only guess, along with the rest of us. Could be the Peregrines will fail. Or maybe they won't. That is not the point. The point is that so far they're behaving unprofessionally and not utilizing the very obvious methods and tactics of infiltration available to them, in favour of a risky pointless bloodshed which endangers not only their own lives, but the success of the entire operation and, more profoundly, the safety of the elven kingdom (bait Xykon one time too many, and he might decide to go exterminator on the elves).

It's true, I can't read Rich's mind. But why show Peregrine's flashy entrance if the only object is to have them set upon by an army and say "wow, they really should have snuck in"? It makes no sense.


Who said anything about "waltzing without a hitch"? No one, correct. Moreover, other posters and myself have specifically described the more level-appropriate and engaging dangers that could have actually challenged this infiltration party and gave the Peregrines a chance to establish themselves as indeed first-class infiltrators. So far they look like a bunch of amateurs playing Rambo.

Scrying sensors, traps and glyphs in the middle of a mountain pass that far from the city? Traders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) do still have to reach the city you know. The patrols are also the only obstacle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) that we have seen mentioned to reach the city.


Once again, you're the one who started with the bile. Stop the escalating insults.

What insult?


Again, you're proceeding from the false assumption that someone here claimed they should not have been given an entry confrontation. Stop fighting those windmills.

You yourself repeatedly have said they should avoid the patrols while invisible. In what way is that a confrontation?


Nnnno, it shows they have no recon, poor planning, no concept of covert operations, and no clue of how to use the available resources.

It's like a real-world commando team "infiltrating an enemy base" without the camouflage, in broad daylight, wearing bright orange vests, and shooting unsilenced guns left and right at passing enemy patrols.

Other than the teleport, no spells were cast, so I'd say their assault was pretty quiet. Unless "schlrkt!" and "thunk!" can carry all the way to the walls, anyway.


You just don't listen, do you? The Wizard teleporting, all of the team members being invisible, and successfully sneaking past the goblin patrol - would have given a much greater projection of power than killing these same mooks. Moreover, it would have given a projection of intelligence, competence and the stealthy nature of their mission, as well as showing some respect for the enemy.

I am listening, and I disagree. I also said we're at an impasse, but you seem to think bludgeoning me with your perspective will change my mind.


And this is all without even the possible showing of other challenges the team might have overcome - such as successfully deceiving a scrying sensor or an alarm trap.

Why would there be a random scrying sensor or alarm trap so far from the city? This isn't Mordor.


So far, what we can glean from these guys and their "Elven Command" is that they don't know the enemy (the magical & mundane recon capacity of Xykon's forces) and don't know themselves (have no clue of how to utilise the most basic features of their spellcasters' power). According to Sun Tzu, this would lead to disaster on the battlefield. Regardless of the outcome, it's just unprofessional, and that's that.

That's your opinion, and that's that. I think we're done.

[Undead Prince]

I agree he's bitter, but also very preoccupied now. If he DOES decide to take a hand in weeding out the Resistance as a result of V and O-Chul's escape, he would do so whether Peregrine was present or not, and their presence really won't do much to change the outcome in that case.

More likely is that he won't lift a finger to help the goblins (he did so before - SoD) unless they challenge him directly or interfere with his search. After all, it would punish Redcloak even more, and he is the true object of Xykon's ire at the moment.

A team of magic-users infiltrating his domain while he's in a vulnerable state (phylactery lost)? And elves again? That would hit Xykon on so many levels he'd be quite likely to devote 18 seconds of his time to smite the bastards.



...And they find corpses, and no trace of any elves.

Speak with Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakwithdead.htm) is a third level Cleric spell, and the classic D&D murder mystery solver.

Hobgoblin Cleric: Soldier, describe the circumstances of your death.
Hobgoblin Soldier corpse: A group of elves appeared from nowhere and killed us all in a blink of an eye.
Hobgoblin Cleric: Alert the HQ, we have infiltration with high possibility of PCs.

I'm not even mentioning the various divinations that allow learning of past and present events by direct communication with one's deity.


The entire encounter's purpose was to show us how "badass" Peregrine is. Sneaking by would not have accomplished that objective.

Again, their behaviour did not show they were badass, only incompetent on many levels. And sneaking done right has huge badass potential, not to mention being the competent and intelligent thing to do when in these circumstances.


From an equally practical point of view, every hobgoblin they kill on their way in is one less they have to kill once inside.

Try playing chess by attempting to take all of the enemy's pawns one at a time. See where this tactic gets you.

[Snake-Aes]

Yes, Redcloak will certainly send somebody to investigate.
And they will file the death of those goblins under "killed by the Resistance", unless they find any prove that contradicts this interpretation.

Elven arrows. The craft of the arrows used against those gobs is not the same of that of the resistance members.

[Jackson]

The one thing that keeps sticking out to me here is the assumption that Xykon would give a crap about Azure City. He has, time and again, both shown by his actions and stated explicitly that he does not. It's unlikely that he did anything to magically protect any part of Azure City outside of his own throne room, since that's about as far as his concern extends.

Given his power level, if he really wanted to destroy it, it's very unlikely the Resistance would still be around. But while he's in charge of the forces that occupy and run the city, he's almost not a part of them - or rather, he's literally not a part of them in this particular aspect. He doesn't want it and doesn't care if anybody takes it from him. So it's unlikely he'd expend any resources in defending it or protecting its borders in the ways described in this thread. His plans don't tie him to any particular location, and he can cast Cloister anywhere. More importantly, he doesn't actually want to rule a conquered city.

Now, that does still leave Redcloak and the Hobgoblin Nation caring about Azure City's security, but Team Peregrine's actions make a lot more sense if you don't take into account possible retribution from Xykon. Which appears to be what they're doing. Because their intel from O'Chul should suggest that he doesn't care enough to do anything. Which is precisely what 'knowing your enemy' means. It doesn't mean that their tactics are up to what you'd devise for a similar situation, but it might mean that in this case they're taking a calculated risk dependent on a particular set of circumstances.

[Snake-Aes]

The one thing that keeps sticking out to me here is the assumption that Xykon would give a crap about Azure City. He has, time and again, both shown by his actions and stated explicitly that he does not. It's unlikely that he did anything to magically protect any part of Azure City outside of his own throne room, since that's about as far as his concern extends.

Given his power level, if he really wanted to destroy it, it's very unlikely the Resistance would still be around. But while he's in charge of the forces that occupy and run the city, he's almost not a part of them - or rather, he's literally not a part of them in this particular aspect. He doesn't want it and doesn't care if anybody takes it from him. So it's unlikely he'd expend any resources in defending it or protecting its borders in the ways described in this thread. His plans don't tie him to any particular location, and he can cast Cloister anywhere. More importantly, he doesn't actually want to rule a conquered city.

Now, that does still leave Redcloak and the Hobgoblin Nation caring about Azure City's security, but Team Peregrine's actions make a lot more sense if you don't take into account possible retribution from Xykon. Which appears to be what they're doing. Because their intel from O'Chul should suggest that he doesn't care enough to do anything. Which is precisely what 'knowing your enemy' means. It doesn't mean that their tactics are up to what you'd devise for a similar situation, but it might mean that in this case they're taking a calculated risk dependent on a particular set of circumstances.Redcloak is resourceful enough by himself to use most of the protective measures we mentioned.

[Jackson]

Except for the rampaging Xykon one.

[Undead Prince]

"I want you all to be ready to teleport out of here two rounds after we find my phylactery, whether that takes days or months. Vacation time is over kids. Time to go back to work."

As I said, his priority now is finding his bauble, not killing insurgents.

The order you quoted does not take into account the possibility of someone like V coming back to try and kick Xykon and his forces. I'm certain there's at least a fair chance of Xykon devoting a few seconds of his time to...

You know, I'm getting tired of repeating the same arguments over and over. Bottom line is, Peregrines ran a HUGE and UNNECESSARY RISK. That is unprofessional, period.


...If they appear on his radar. You think that killing one patrol can cause that; I don't.

Not just killing a patrol. OPENLY killing a patrol. OPENLY walking towards the stronghold, right along the only visible pass through the mountain range. If that doesn't scream "sitting duck" and "total lack of stealth", I don't know what does.


Are you willing to wager that Team Evil won't discover them before they reach the Resistance?

I don't really care which way the comic goes. Peregrines are incompetent, that's the point I'm making. We've had plenty of occasions where incompetence triumphs, and others where it fails miserably. The end result is irrelevant here.


It's true, I can't read Rich's mind. But why show Peregrine's flashy entrance if the only object is to have them set upon by an army and say "wow, they really should have snuck in"? It makes no sense.

V had a flashy entrance into Xykon's throne room. With a bang, so to say. And it ended in a fiasco (at least in terms of his initial intentions). Again, the further fate of the Peregrines is of little relevance. They've demonstrated their lack of planning in #670, that's it.


The Order was 12-14 at that point in the story. Peregrine is unlikely to be more than 9-11.

1. As if that matters,

2. Based on their inefficiency, they may be level 17 for all I care. They still wouldn't be able to find their butts with both hands (i.e. adequately use their own class abilities).


Scrying sensors, traps and glyphs in the middle of a mountain pass that far from the city? Traders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) do still have to reach the city you know.

The monitoring mechanisms need not be immediately hazardous to the passersby. All that's needed is alert the authorities that someone is penetrating the border. Many ways to do that.


The patrols are also the only obstacle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) that we have seen mentioned to reach the city.

We haven't heard anything about the glyphs in the throne room until the very moment of their activation. And we do know Red spent the last six months or more fortifying the city and its environs. So it's not unreasonable to suppose that the obvious entry routes into the realm, such as the road through the mountain pass, would be under supervision. Therefore, any covert infiltration should take into account this possibility, and take the necessary precautions. Peregrines didn't. Incompetent.


What insult?

The "bile", and the passive-aggressive stuff like telling me to "calm down" when there was no reason for it.


You yourself repeatedly have said they should avoid the patrols while invisible. In what way is that a confrontation?

Because, and it's a pity I have to repeat it so many times, a bunch of insignificant mooks is not the only possible challenge to an infiltration team. Read the previous posts for the details.


Other than the teleport, no spells were cast, so I'd say their assault was pretty quiet. Unless "schlrkt!" and "thunk!" can carry all the way to the walls, anyway.

So the fact that they've teleported in, slaughtered the patrol, and proceeded through the mountain pass FULLY VISIBLE, in BROAD DAYLIGHT and not even attempting to HIDE does not strike you as risky? As I've mentioned before, if there was even a single sentry nearby whom they didn't notice or couldn't take down in the surprise round, Xykon's HQ would have been alerted and the entire operation would have failed right there. A totally unnecessary, enormous risk. Diagnosis: incompetence.


Why would there be a random scrying sensor or alarm trap so far from the city? This isn't Mordor.

This is not some random location; it's a road through a mountain pass, the only way to enter the cloistered realm on the ground in the entire area. It's a strategic chokepoint. It would have made all kinds of sense for Xykon's forces to monitor this particular area. And it would have made sense for the infiltration team to traverse it stealthily. Which they didn't, thereby announcing their presence to any unknown sentries that might happen nearby. The patrol itself, had it been out of the team's immediate reach, would have probably had a reasonable chance of shooting off a Dancing Light or otherwise alerting Azure City.


I am listening, and I disagree. I also said we're at an impasse, but you seem to think bludgeoning me with your perspective will change my mind.

I believe I'm bludgeoning you not with a mere perspective but with positive and, seemingly, objective arguments. If you don't have anything constructive to offer in terms of an argumentative discussion, and if you're going to stick to your opinion no matter what considerations might be brought your way, then just say so.

[Thalnawr]

When talking about scrying, I usually refer to the plethora of Divination [scrying] spells, as well as relevant magic items, not just the Scry spell per se.

You might be right about Cloister having effect on the patrol even outside its geographical area (that's what happened to Haley). And you know the fun part? This would mean that the Peregrines got incredibly lucky by landing in the middle of the patrol and not, say, a 100 ft away. Because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to eliminate the goblins in the surprise round, the goblin cleric would have cast Dancing Lights, and the operation would have been over before it began.

This just goes to show what an incredible risk the Peregrines were taking by arriving fully visible and not cloaked by the various nondetection spells they ought to have had access to on account of the 9th level Wizard and the "Elven Command".

Name one of these spells or items that's in the PH or DMG. So far, I haven't been able to find anything with the range they'd need that doesn't require a creature target. Anytime the author uses non-core material, he makes it blindingly obvious it's happening.

Also, one other thing that bothers me. Dancing Lights isn't on the cleric spell list, or a domain spell on any of the domain lists I've seen. Unless your average hobgoblin cleric is multiclassing 1 level of sorcerer, wizard, or bard, this is out of place.
a bit

[Undead Prince]

The one thing that keeps sticking out to me here is the assumption that Xykon would give a crap about Azure City.

He does give a big crap, so to speak, about challenges to his personal power and dangers to his personal safety. With V's recent escapades and the phylactery missing, the elves' infiltration has good chances of being viewed by Xykon as both.


Now, that does still leave Redcloak and the Hobgoblin Nation caring about Azure City's security, but Team Peregrine's actions make a lot more sense if you don't take into account possible retribution from Xykon. Which appears to be what they're doing. Because their intel from O'Chul should suggest that he doesn't care enough to do anything.

Right, like NOT ringing his throne room with expensive glyphs of warding, NOT giving Redcloak and Tsukiko free reign in fortifying Azure City & weeding out rebels, NOT taking pleasure from torturing and killing enemies...


Which is precisely what 'knowing your enemy' means. It doesn't mean that their tactics are up to what you'd devise for a similar situation, but it might mean that in this case they're taking a calculated risk dependent on a particular set of circumstances.

The risk was not "calculated". It was COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. The Peregrines went out of their way to jeopardize the mission when they could have had very easily avoided the pointless and dangerous conflict.

[Snake-Aes]

Name one of these spells or items that's in the PH or DMG. So far, I haven't been able to find anything with the range they'd need that doesn't require a creature target. Anytime the author uses non-core material, he makes it blindingly obvious it's happening.

Also, one other thing that bothers me. Dancing Lights isn't on the cleric spell list, or a domain spell on any of the domain lists I've seen. Unless your average hobgoblin cleric is multiclassing 1 level of sorcerer, wizard, or bard, this is out of place.
a bit

Magic mouth set to speak in case a non-hobgoblin passes nearby without an accompanying hobgoblin.

[Jackson]

See, there's a difference between what he's doing for his own personal safety and what he's doing for the safety of the Hobgoblin Nation, and also between what he's doing personally and what he's allowing other people to do when he doesn't have anything more pressing for them to do.

Yes, he warded the room he spends all of his time in. No, this does not make it likely that he expended similar spells to protect the city as a whole.

Yes, he lets Redcloak and Tsukiko deal with insurgents. Inefficiently, considering he could wipe all of them out himself with minor difficulty if he cared enough to do so.

You see my point? He acts as though the safety of Azure City as a whole doesn't matter to him. He also explicitly states that his opinion is such. He lets the building and strengthening of the fledgling Hobgoblin Nation go on so long as it doesn't inconvenience him personally. But when other nations start attacking you have to assume that would be a personal inconvenience, especially given that the thing he actually wants is a continent away.

And he doesn't view somebody trying to vanquish him or take over his city as a challenge to his personal power. Nor does he consider anybody midlevel a danger to his personal safety.

[Skorj]

About XP. Scribing a scroll with one 1st level spell costs ONE XP. A 1st level wizard can get 75 XP from killing a single cat (as in, regular cat; buy one for a copper and gut it personally, or have your hireling do it).


You've mentioned your love for cats in other threads as well. This makes me want to run a fantasy horror campaign where the player play housecats in UP's world. :smallamused: Of course we all know where that ends up: "Milk for the milk throne!" etc. :smallbiggrin:

[Undead Prince]

Name one of these spells or items that's in the PH or DMG. So far, I haven't been able to find anything with the range they'd need that doesn't require a creature target.

Arcane Eye (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneeye.htm), Clairvoyance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ClairaudienceClairvoyance.htm), and [Greater] (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/PryingEyesGreater.htm) Prying Eyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pryingEyes.htm) are all good for scouting the environs of Azure City. The casters can stay hidden at a safe distance from the cloistered territory, and given enough time (the elves had six months or more) they could cover an enormous area in full detail.

Scry itself, as well as crystal balls, could be used provided there is a suitable target (for instance, a bird familiar or animal companion), which will be used as the target while the caster/user scries its immediate surroundings.


Also, one other thing that bothers me. Dancing Lights isn't on the cleric spell list, or a domain spell on any of the domain lists I've seen. Unless your average hobgoblin cleric is multiclassing 1 level of sorcerer, wizard, or bard, this is out of place. a bit

First, they seem to have enough low-level arcane casters (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0512.html) for this. Second, use-activated single-use magic item. Cheap as dirt.

[Mant]

And I desperately hope that one day, maybe, people will stop claiming how cool, smart and pro an obviously ineffectual and self-defeating course of action is.

It's not even merely a question of ignorance with regard to the rules by which the OoTS world supposedly operates. It's the lack of basic common sense which sometimes annoys me.

And don't think I'm standing in any major disagreement with the author of the comic here. You do remember the heated discussions caused by V's ineffectual behaviour during the soul-splice? Well, what do you know, the author has given us express acknowledgement, through V himself, that V's strategy was indeed lacking and below-par.

Bottom line is: I abhor it when people demand that others stoop to their own low standards. If you can't think of a smart strategy, don't go dissing those who can.

Cool down, it's just a comic.

[Undead Prince]

You've mentioned your love for cats in other threads as well. This makes me want to run a fantasy horror campaign where the player play housecats in UP's world. :smallamused: Of course we all know where that ends up: "Milk for the milk throne!" etc. :smallbiggrin:

My Wizard character approached this issue seriously 8=) He dissected small animals to learn anatomy, and killed larger animals to learn combat moves on a living but reasonably tame target (always under the safeguard of his burly hirelings, of course). He even thought of investing into Profession [Butcher] since he ended up slaughtering quite a number of animals during the first couple of levels, but after thinking it over the trade paid too little to waste valuable skill points 8=)

[Optimystik]

Cool down, it's just a comic.

Don't tell him that, it's "passive aggressive." :smallsigh:

[Undead Prince]

Cool down, it's just a comic.

Hey, how about a little context here? That little rant was in reply to the following declaration:


I'm glad the comic no longer is based strictly on 3.5 D&D. With luck, perhaps - perhaps - over time, the number of analyses we get about how unoptimal a character action was given the strict structures and oversights made in D&D will drop dramatically. Maybe.

The declaration inferred that examining the comic from the standpoint of common sense and D&D rules is a bad thing and should be reduced. It deserved a rant 8=)


Don't tell him that, it's "passive aggressive." :smallsigh:

Congratulations with yet another strawman. The rant was not addressed at you, now was it? It was outside our discussion, and my words that you're quoting referred to your reaction to a completely different post of mine.

[JonestheSpy]

And the lesson of this thread is: Debating narrative with compulsive optimizers is a profitless enterprise.

[Axl_Rose]

Go for this thought: The elves need to infiltrate a hostile city - and there's no chance to send in reinforcements. The team will also be isolated once they are in. Will they send in "the rookies" or "the best of the best"?

"Send in the rookies" would make for a better movie though.

[veti]

People keep using terms like "commando", "strike", "insertion". (Of course the Peregrines started it, with their "Covert insertion successful" nonsense, but I put that down to bravado on their part.) I'd just like to point out that these things are very modern military terms, from our time of professional armies.

It's very unlikely that the elves, being peaceful people, even have a professional army, much less concepts like "commando". Their idea of a "high command" will be a bunch of older elves, some of whom will have been in wars before, but others of whom will have muscled their way in purely by virtue of their age or charisma. As for the members of Team Peregrine - six months ago, they were probably quietly composing poems or training otters or inventing new recipes for acorn casserole, or whatever the heck elves do with their ridiculous amounts of spare time.

Vaarsuvius talks about the setting as a "presumed medieval time period". In medieval times, war was very much an amateur business. (The Romans took it more seriously - like the hobgoblins evidently do - but the Romans, not to put too fine a point on it, were dead and gone by that time. They lost.)

So: I'm guessing the elves have no military manual, no basic training, no quartermaster, no drill sergeants, quite probably even no concept of "rank" as we know it, let alone "discipline".

That doesn't make them stupid. Let them do their thing, see where it gets them.

[Ozymandias9]

First, they do not. They really don't. V and Durkon were already gone when Xykon issued his orders re: phylactery, and the city is Cloistered from scrying.

Xykon noted, with O'Chul present, the ammount of time and effort needed to recover it. You are correct, I should not have said "know": "can surmise" would be a better way of putting it.


Second, as I've already emphasised on more than one occasion, just because Xykon's looking for the phylactery doesn't mean he won't jump at the chance to inflict bloody carnage upon elven infiltrators. After all, it was an elven infiltrator that caused him all the grief in the first place.

I'm not suggesting that he wouldn't. I'm suggesting that he's not going to be predisposed to seeking them out if he does not know they are present.


They have HUGE reasons to AVOID the patrols while being on a COVERT mission in the territory of an OVERWHELMING enemy who is in possession of EXTENSIVE monitoring capabilities AND is pissed to the extreme by a recent invasion.

You've not demonstrated that Xykon has invested in said monitoring capacity, much less that he is using it. He has a crystal ball, which can be obscured by any of several anti-scrying spells. He's not demonstrated any other significant scrying capacity, and there are very few other powerful casters at his disposal.

Moreover, like I said, he has little interest in providing such defences to a base he sees as disposable. O'Chul should be able to pass on Xykon's limited valuation of the city, which should be easily extrapolated from the fact that he's being tortured for information about a location on the other side of the world.


What reason do they have to actually hit the lowly patrols when they could have JUST AS EASILY AVOIDED them and KEPT THE OPERATION COVERT? None at all.

Furthermore. I seriously doubt they are indeed prepared to prevent Dancing Lights. A single hidden sentry along the way (which they are currently making ON FOOT and FULLY VISIBLE) would be enough.

Unless someone is actively watching them kill the hobos, the mission is still covert. High listen and spot checks should be sufficient to spot mundane sentries. And they do have convenient racial bonuses to those skills.

As point of fact, this method must have worked at least passably for Haley's party for some time, since they were carrying out missions to free slaves and such for some time without access to any primary spell casters powerful enough to conjure basic foodstuffs.


IF they notice the alert signal (which may be something a lot less conspicious than Dancing Lights).

This was, as far as we know, the peak of their signaling strategy during Haley's time leading the resistance. Why would we assume that their means have grown exponentially since?


Dancing Lights from a hobo is like the LEAST danger they're exposing themselves to. Aerial recon (zombie harpies & devas of which Xykon has plenty), mobile scrying sensors (Prying Eyes etc.), Xykon's Teevo and any other crystal balls he might have crafted and assigned minions to, Alarm traps etc. etc. are all more dangerous and more likely to alert the enemy forces, which would come down on the Peregrines like a ton of bricks and annihilate them in the space of one round.

Again, unless I'm forgetting something, you're assuming a capacity we've not seen. Where have we seen indication that Xykon has vast numbers of Zombie harpies and devas that survived the battle for the city? Where have we seen that he's made any considerable investment in the security of the city? Where have we seen another caster who has the capacity other than Redcloak, who was already having to go to considerable lengths to con Xykon merely into hanging around longer?


You're not bothering to read the other posts at all, right? Here, bolded for your convenience:

1. A few second-third level spells ARE NOTHING TO A 9TH LEVEL WIZARD. NOTHING. Like 2 cents in a wallet with a wad of hundred-dollar bills. Do you see the proportion here?

2. The cost of magic items that would provide the team with continuous application of the needed spells is quite low, both to buy and to craft. The "Elven Command", having supposedly the resources of an entire nation, ought to have been able to provide it's infiltration team with such items.

Actually, I've read the whole thread.

1 is valid only if they expect to be able to rest and re-memorize spells in the near future. I would never let a party going into an occupied city regularly rest for long periods. Even when they reach the resistance hideout, there should still be the risk the the base is discovered and they would have to flee quickly. Reliable rest should never be a feature of a war zone.

For 2, I actually noted that it was reasonable for Elven command to supply such items in my original post. I find it one of the most convincing points of your argument.


THERE WAS NO THREAT FROM THE PATROL. None at all. It could have been avoided by Invisibility, by sneaking, or simply by NOT TELEPORTING INTO THEIR VERY MIDST.

Scrying is explicitly limited: if the patrol left the area of Cloister and entered the location teleported to after the scry and before the teleport. And if they are predisposed to sneaking rather than Invisibility, for whatever reason, then a fight that they teleported into despite attempts to gather intelligence would not be avoidable.


You have no idea what you're talking about, right?

Right. Other than the fact that I've been GMing for a decade and a half. And the fact that I own and have read every 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 book from WoTC and TSR.


"Questionably believable endeavour" - that's just laughable, it really is. ALL CRAFTING COSTS XP. ALL WIZARDS CRAFT, because it's SO TOTALLY WORTH IT. Wizards get BONUS CRAFTING FEATS as a CLASS FEATURE for this precise reason. In the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, the economies of entire nations are built around crafting magic items (Thay), and the world is largely affected by such crafting (the Mythallars and the Fall of Netheril). In the Eberron Campaign Setting, basically EVERYTHING is built around crafting magic items.

Wizards get scribe scroll as a class feature: other crafting feats must be selected over metamagic feats of considerable utility. This isn't Forgotten Realms, which is one of the most extreme examples of an explicitly high powered, high magic setting. Nor is it Eberron, where Artificers are a player class. It's not even Greyhawk: it's homebrew.

Moreover, it's a homebrew were the bulk of troops on both sides of a battle for a major city is made up of low level characters (though oddly enough, fighters rather than warriors for some reason).


About XP. Scribing a scroll with one 1st level spell costs ONE XP. A 1st level wizard can get 75 XP from killing a single cat (as in, regular cat; buy one for a copper and gut it personally, or have your hireling do it).
Yes, and a 20th level wizard can scribe it for the same cost if they scribe it at caster level 1. My objection was to the idea of a character who did nothing but pump out such items without end for no purpose other than money as something that is unquestionable available.

And any GM/DM who allows the cat thing deserves to be dragged out behind the shed and Old Yeller'd. Part of a DM's job is, at least in my opinion, to prevent game mechanics from degenerating under unintended use.


And about Wizards being "academics". They certainly are - if by "academic" you mean Oppenheimer, "Little Boy" and Enola Gay all rolled into a single creature, ready to go Hiroshima on your butt at a moment's notice.
I never said they weren't powerful. Academics, as you alluded to, split the atom. But a scientist who discovers fission and does basic refinement on the understanding of it's mechanics is not the same as a nuclear weapons production program.

For such a program to be more than an isolated example, you have to make certain assumptions about total population and economy necessary to support enough of the specialized kind of scientist/engineer necessary to perpetuate the program.

Similarly, you have to make similar assumptions about population and economics relative to a specific subset of wizards to make your proposed system a reasonable fixture in a game world for anything other than an isolated case.


Whatever goal a Wizard character would pursue in a D&D world, it would probably involve power as either the means or the ends (and that's true in most D&D novels I've read, by the way). For a Wizard, a great road to power and wealth would be crafting magic items. So whaddaya know? most Wizards do! Proved by Science.

Well, its certainly true in most of the Forgotten Realms books I've read. I find the power level of the OotS world more in line with Dragonlance, where we have wizards commenting that a colleague (and an evil one at that) should have kept keeping her town clear of rats for payment, as she had done for decades, instead of making a local power grab. (IIRC, the reference is from Soulforge).

More generally: Just because we see many tales about the knight-errant does not mean we should assume they make up a huge portion of the fighters. We should assume, rather, that their deeds are more suited to serving as a story. Likewise, the fact that wizards who grab for power tend to predominate stories (because they make for good a good story) does not mean that they should predominate the wizardly population in a demographically balanced campaign world.

If wealth is the ends, your suggested method is certainly an acceptable means. If power is the ends, it must be weighed against the potential of original research. If they are produced in bulk (especially higher level items and wondrous items in particular), it must also be weighed against the lost speed of level advancement.


That does not mean Wizards don't engage in scientific research - they certainly do. But, just like real-life scientists, their research tends to produce tangible valuable results - such as new powerful spells and new powerful magic items. You don't believe academics are all about pointless babble and abstract philosophy, do you?

Goodness no: they're all about whatever gets them grants to research the thing that's most recently caught their fancy. And giving it a clever acronym to make the grant more lucrative. For the physical sciences in particular (which most gamers connect most strongly with arcane magic), these tend to be of military origin.

But unless you're positing a patronage system (individual or governmental) in the game world, the application of such a system would seem, to me at least, questionable. Moreover, this particular system is only most prominent in recent history. For much of history, physics in particular was the realm of men like Newton: reasonably well off men whose patrons only expected that their output was noteworthy and widely respected, not necessarily immediately useful to a great extent.


A Wizard can't have high Hide and Move Silently because they're not on his class skill list. He won't normally have a high Initiative because he has better things to do with his stat points than pump Dexterity, and better things to do with his feats than take Improved Initiative.

They can still max out cross class skills: a level 9 can be at 7 ranks without considering skill specialization or bonuses from a familiar.

Your dexterity comment seems to assume point buy: I generally presume rolled-- he could merely have rolled well in addition to his relevant racial bonus. And if a wizard finds that he is often in an infiltration operation, Imp. Initiative would be a reasonable choice.


The key contributions a Wizard could make to an infiltration mission would involve spells from the Illusion and Transmutation schools. There is no point in sending a Wizard who banned these schools on an infiltration mission, just like there's no point in tasking with trapfinding a Rogue who never put any ranks into Search and Disarm Traps. Elven Command would supposedly have more qualified candidates at their disposal, seeing how they ostensibly possess the resources of the magically-inclined elven nation.

This is a reasonable critique: there may, however be other concerns. The wizard in question might have researched a more effective summoning method than the standard gate method. They might have a wide array of anti-scrying spells and a school focus to combat the sensors you seem to believe are everywhere. They might have considerable divination capacity for use inside the cloister to deal with locating the resistance should the information about their location within the city prove outdated. They might merely be part of a regularly operating team which was available to deploy on very short notice while more optimal choices are recalled from other missions (I for one took the final scene as happening close to contemporaneously with the rest of the cells).


I don't know about the OoTS pantheon, but in D&D the Elven Gods that have Trickery in their domain portfolios include: Sehanine Moonbow (Faiths & Pantheons, Races of the Wild); Alobar Lorfilil (Races of the Wild); and Erevan Ilesere (Faiths & Pantheons).

Like you said, it's unknown. There may not be an Elven God of Trickery in OotS. There may be one, but one whose worship is looked down upon and related primarily to theft and criminals: a cleric of such a church might be suspected by the elven authorities rather than utilized. There are a lot of possibilities: other than the fact that the elven deities are composed entirely of a small number of apotheosized mortals, we don't know much either way.


Well, if they're gonna be as covert as that, I suppose the tone of liberation would involve splattering their insides all over the place when Xykon or one of his minions gets them.

It made a good exciting picture: the message was intended to create suspense. Essentially, the goal is a cool closing line and picture.


First, we don't know how extensive Redcloak's defenses really are.

Haley, having led the resistance in the city for some time, presumably does. And she has communicated that information to Hinjo.


Second, the elves don't know that Xykon has no interest in the city.

They know that his goal sits on another continent, and the reason that he was willing to wait was to gather information there on from O'Chul's torture. At least, they do if we (reasonably) assume that O'Chul was debriefing was communicated to them.


Third, Redcloak has a manifest interest in the city, notably in making it as impregnable as possible as the stronghold of the Goblin Nation, and has spent the last several months doing exactly that.

Yes, but he has been forced to do so in a manner that does not draw Xykon's attention. And he has interest in doing so in a manner which can be continued after his departure. And his means are considerably less than Xykon's. And what means he has are already considerably drawn on by Xykon's demands and the effects of his amusements.


More elven intruders while the phylactery's still not found? How does that not matter to Xykon? After the last elven intruder almost destroyed him and his phylactery?

I'm not suggesting he doesn't care about the elves, but rather than he doesn't care about the city. He is unlikely to invest more than he has to in a base he is not only willing but planning to abandon: and he has been planning to abandon it for some time, despite Redcloak's delays. After all, the next target is on the other continent. V's assault ended that delay and pushed the departure up, but unless you're suggesting considerable time has passed between the panels, defensive disposition is unlikely to have changed to a tremendous degree since V's attack.

Moreover, he's under the impression that V attacked him for Magic street cred. That s/he's "some kind of arcane George Mallory" rather than someone there on a specific mission or quest.


Redcloak, the Hobos' Supreme Leader, would do all he can to defend the stronghold which he sees as a seed for a goblin nation. Xykon may just as likely be inclined to get some bloody vengeance on the elves. And after all, squashing the Peregrines would require only a few seconds.

Redcloak will do all he can without jeopardizing the Dark One's plan, which has placed him firmly in Xykon's clutches. And while I think Xykon would kill any elves he found for fun even if he weren't pissed, this presumes he knows they're there. He does not: the resistance has managed to evade his forces for some time without even the magical resources to conjure foodstuffs.

If he were hanging around for longer, I would expect him to up his defensive measures in response to V's attack. But he is not: the source of information he was willing to delay in Azure City to torture (O'Chul) is no longer available. Not only we do we know that he's leaving in the near future, but the Hinjo and the Order should be able to surmise it (and seem to have done so) and have probably communicated it to the elves.


I won't claim that I know what the author intended to demonstrate with this strip. It may very well be that the Peregrines' cockiness and lack of foresight would eventually lead to their defeat (that was the case with V, after all). But as you can see from this thread, I am not alone in judging the Peregrines' actions (and the Elven Command's strategy) as not up to the professional standards they could have exhibited.

And a great deal of these judgements are based presumptions about available resources, disposition, game economy, and operational details on both sides that may or may not be accurate. As I pointed out earlier, this is not Forgotten Realms: the elves are not assaulting Thay. They are assaulting a ruined city under the control of one epic caster with a mere handful of mid to high level minions following a battle that was decided primarily by superior numbers of extremely low level characters.


Elven arrows. The craft of the arrows used against those gobs is not the same of that of the resistance members.
If we make the assumption that this is valid (the azurites might have learned arrow-making from their elvish allies for all we know), the investigating party would still have to know the difference. Such knowledge should require as skill check: perhaps some kind of knowledge or craft, possibly appraise. Honestly, I'd probably allow almost any relevant int check: but if it's only a mid-level hobo doing the investigation (and it seems unlikely that Xykon, Redcloak, or Pigtails would investigate every patrol death in a city with an active resistance), they might reasonably be expected to fail the check unless they've had significant prior military with the elves (and would thus be deserving of a circumstance bonus).

A more probable issue comes from, as Undead Prince points out, the possibility that dead patrols are routinely subjected to Speak With Dead for debriefing: a 3rd level divine spell is easily in line with the overall level range of the hobo army.

[veti]

Just one more thing...

We know the place the elves teleported to is outside the Cloister. Otherwise they couldn't have teleported. Fair enough.

But what makes us assume they didn't scry before teleporting?

The hobgoblins were very likely inside the city when Cloister was cast, and therefore they would be invisible to the scry. All the scryer saw would be an empty pass. So that's what the team were expecting. When they found something else, they responded promptly and appropriately.

[Snake-Aes]

People keep using terms like "commando", "strike", "insertion". (Of course the Peregrines started it, with their "Covert insertion successful" nonsense, but I put that down to bravado on their part.) I'd just like to point out that these things are very modern military terms, from our time of professional armies.

Infiltrating the enemy's scores for intelligence is as old as it can get.


It's very unlikely that the elves, being peaceful people, even have a professional army, much less concepts like "commando". Their idea of a "high command" will be a bunch of older elves, some of whom will have been in wars before, but others of whom will have muscled their way in purely by virtue of their age or charisma. As for the members of Team Peregrine - six months ago, they were probably quietly composing poems or training otters or inventing new recipes for acorn casserole, or whatever the heck elves do with their ridiculous amounts of spare time.

Actually, they're usually quite the martial people.


Vaarsuvius talks about the setting as a "presumed medieval time period". In medieval times, war was very much an amateur business. (The Romans took it more seriously - like the hobgoblins evidently do - but the Romans, not to put too fine a point on it, were dead and gone by that time. They lost.)

The Roman Empire entered in crisis for economical reasons much above military reasons.


So: I'm guessing the elves have no military manual, no basic training, no quartermaster, no drill sergeants, quite probably even no concept of "rank" as we know it, let alone "discipline".

That doesn't make them stupid. Let them do their thing, see where it gets them.That act was foolish. If they didn't know better, they were just as foolish.

[Snake-Aes]

Just one more thing...

We know the place the elves teleported to is outside the Cloister. Otherwise they couldn't have teleported. Fair enough.

But what makes us assume they didn't scry before teleporting?

The hobgoblins were very likely inside the city when Cloister was cast, and therefore they would be invisible to the scry. All the scryer saw would be an empty pass. So that's what the team were expecting. When they found something else, they responded promptly and appropriately.
That is definitely a possibility.
An experienced infiltrator, knowing that they could pop-up in the middle of the enemy ranks because of recon malfunction, would simply show up a little further to minimize chances... or show up invisible just in case. As it's already been discussed, any wizard capable of doing that teleport wouldn't expend 1/30 of his fortune to make a dozen or so scrolls. And that's before picking up their chief organization.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

I agree that the Peregrines are shown as a bunch of complete duffers.

And since when has using intelligent (and indeed, very basic and common-sense) military tactics been the same thing as "pointless optimization," to quote a comment further up in the thread?

Undead Prince is simply pointing out that the Peregrines and their superiors know nothing about how to use the basic, straightforward magical resources at their disposal to any effect. They're as hamhanded as Cardigan at the Charge of the Light Brigade or Custer at Little Bighorn. Possibly even more so.

However, I'm again going to put in my caveat that this is probably due to Hollywood-style military tropes being applied -- they're acting just like I'd expect military people to act in a movie, where the screenwriter has neither actual military nor military history background. In other words, it's not supposed to be a depiction of what the elven military would do if they were real, but a theatrical gesture that's more symbolic than anything else.

That said, I, personally, would love being pitted against the elven army if I were a general with the magical and military resources of the OotS world. :belkar: Talk about ripping them a new one before they even knew what was happening .... they're the dream of a competent general come true. :smallbiggrin:

[veti]

Infiltrating the enemy's scores for intelligence is as old as it can get.

Yes, but that "infiltration" will be done by amateurs. As recently as the 19th century, the British Empire still operated on pretty much that basis. Its covert agents would be gentleman-spies - clever, brave, disciplined, centrally co-ordinated, but not "trained" as we understand it.


Actually, they're usually quite the martial people.

We're explicitly told they're "slow to go to war". Doesn't sound martial to me.


The Roman Empire entered in crisis for economical reasons much above military reasons.

You talk as if these were two separate things. The Roman economy fell critically ill because it depended on unsustainable military spending. In the end it didn't have enough real wealth to keep paying its own armies as much as they felt they deserved, so it had to cut back its military - but it couldn't cut back its commitments at the same time.

[Snake-Aes]

We're explicitly told they're "slow to go to war". Doesn't sound martial to me.

They spend 20 years in diapers. They will be slow for anything really, but the culture of swordsmanship among elves is quite the stereotype.




You talk as if these were two separate things. The Roman economy fell critically ill because it depended on unsustainable military spending. In the end it didn't have enough real wealth to keep paying its own armies as much as they felt they deserved, so it had to cut back its military - but it couldn't cut back its commitments at the same time.

This reply was made because you stated the romans' failure as primarily a military fault. It wasn't. A ruined economy ruins just about everything, so obviously military prowess would go down, but it wasn't what caused the problem.

[Bibliomancer]

Something else to keep in mind is that the team is quite a ways away from the city and they weren't surprised about appearing in the middle of a patrol. It looks like they planned it. Thus, they kill some scouts on the city's perimeter to either a) make Redcloak extend the patrols and wear down the troops' energy and morale looking for an enemy that wasn't there or b) Pull patrols back to the city, giving the elves room to mobilize on the edges. Either way, it's a win-win, and scrying (which they probably used to appear there int eh first place) will tell them which occurred.

Also, isn't it more likely that Xykon, being a sorcerer, has a finely tuned system for locating magic than keeping an eye on the masses? Thus, they are attempting to "fly quiet" and minimize their magical footprint, except for a few choice spells that are cloaked, somehow.

[Snake-Aes]

Something else to keep in mind is that the team is quite a ways away from the city and they weren't surprised about appearing in the middle of a patrol. It looks like they planned it. Thus, they kill some scouts on the city's perimeter to either a) make Redcloak extend the patrols and wear down the troops' energy and morale looking for an enemy that wasn't there or b) Pull patrols back to the city, giving the elves room to mobilize on the edges. Either way, it's a win-win, and scrying (which they probably used to appear there int eh first place) will tell them which occurred.

Also, isn't it more likely that Xykon, being a sorcerer, has a finely tuned system for locating magic than keeping an eye on the masses? Thus, they are attempting to "fly quiet" and minimize their magical footprint, except for a few choice spells that are cloaked, somehow.

Those are of limited use until they meet the resistance and plan their actions from there, sadly.
Redcloak can specifically stay alert against magic, the hobs are against normal stuff. Regardless of hoe they stay hidden, there isn't much to gain by not staying hidden till they reach Thahn.

[Kalbron]

We already know that the hobgoblins have a sophisticated alarm system in place. Somehow I doubt that long distance patrols around the city's borders won't have a requirement to report in every few minutes.

Patrol doesn't report in, Tsukiko's squad flies over, finds corpses, tracks the elves, etc, etc, etc.

If they're proffessionals, they're horrible.

If they have no military skill as some have suggested, they shouldn't be doing this on their own.

Either way, it's poor planning and shows an utter lack of foresight.

[ericgrau]

The wizard didn't do anything because he couldn't. Everyone else was holding their action to attack and the fight was over in 1 round. The wizard spent his action teleporting the group. Thanks to this strat they managed to dispatch the entire squad before any hobgoblins could act meaning the hobgoblins couldn't send an alarm nor deal any damage to the elves. The elves knew where the squad would be and that there wouldn't be any others nearby thanks to Haley. So the elves arrived undetected. Their plan is to repeat this several times. That's pro.

EDIT, for above: The hobgoblin arcane casters are 1st-3rd level. They can't cast a spell every 5 minutes to send a signal. Magic items will be low to non-existant since they are one of a thousand low level squads. The dancing lights trick is clearly an emergency tactic that they can only do once or twice.

[Snake-Aes]

Yup. Their report system is probably hourly.

[veti]

We already know that the hobgoblins have a sophisticated alarm system in place. Somehow I doubt that long distance patrols around the city's borders won't have a requirement to report in every few minutes.

Not really - they've developed the magical equivalent of flare guns. That's not what I'd call a particularly "sophisticated alarm system".

And how would they report in that often? "Sending" is a 4th level cleric spell. Even if all they need to cast is "Dancing Lights" to report all-clear, they'd still run out of uses pretty quick. Heck, even a wand only carries 50 charges - if they use one every half-hour (say), then a 6-hour patrol to a nearby watchtower, and back, would burn through half a wand. Do we think the hobgoblins have enough casters to keep topping up that many items on a continuous basis?

[Snake-Aes]

Non-emergencial reporting doesn't have to be more complex than "come back from patrol, report, dismissed". The hobs are granted to take it seriously if a patrol is missing.

[Kalbron]

Do we think the hobgoblins have enough casters to keep topping up that many items on a continuous basis?

Xykon has been spending 8 hours a day crafting magical items for 6+ months. Redcloak has probably been doing a similar amount. They've also likely had Tsukiko doing the same.

Then there are... what? 40 Legions? Each with likely dozens of clerics and arcanists of various levels. There's more than enough crafters to go around.

Besides which, they don't even need Sending. Since they've got a centralised command structure, for emergencies all the troops could have a single use item which enables Whispering Wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/whisperingWind.htm), which is only a level 2 spell.

[Ozymandias9]

Xykon has been spending 8 hours a day crafting magical items for 6+ months. Redcloak has probably been doing a similar amount. They've also likely had Tsukiko doing the same.

Redcloak has an explicitly full schedule of Healing O'Chul, Torturing O'Chul, Healing O'Chul again, and administrating the goblin army. Pigtails is a possability though


Then there are... what? 40 Legions? Each with likely dozens of clerics and arcanists of various levels. There's more than enough crafters to go around.
Before the war, we know that the hobos had fewer low and mid level casters than the azurites. The azurites had 314 clerics, so if we assume about 300 for the pre-war casters hobos. The base of their force is approximately 30,000. So if we assume merely equal survival rates for the more strategically important casters along the hobo armies, that's only 1 caster per hundred hobos.

[veti]

This reply was made because you stated the romans' failure as primarily a military fault. It wasn't. A ruined economy ruins just about everything, so obviously military prowess would go down, but it wasn't what caused the problem.

No, my point about the Romans was that - in the long term, it's not necessarily a good idea to have a fully trained and structured professional military. Amateurs might actually be a better investment. The Romans might have won on the battlefield, more often than not - but in the long run, it just wasn't sustainable.

Don't despise amateurs, that's all I'm saying. They can surprise you.

[Raging Gene Ray]

How do we know they're pro? Because they look vaguely similar to the Order, the exemplars of professionalism!

Red-haired archer wearing the same color armor as Haley, Arcane caster wearing the same style robes as V, Cleric wearing the same style armor as Durkon, and a melee fighter who has the skin color and :smallannoyed: kind of look as Roy plus the dual-wielding style and green clothes of Belkar.

I can't believe nobody else has mentioned that yet.

[Skorj]

No, my point about the Romans was that - in the long term, it's not necessarily a good idea to have a fully trained and structured professional military. Amateurs might actually be a better investment. The Romans might have won on the battlefield, more often than not - but in the long run, it just wasn't sustainable.

Don't despise amateurs, that's all I'm saying. They can surprise you.

Well, the Romans used their troops to build infrastructure too, and got a lot out of that. The Athenian culture (citizen soldiers, no standing army) and the Spartan culture (you life is only being the best soldier you can) proved remarkably similar in military might. Make of that what you will.

I wouldn't consider the Athenians "amatures". They had a service reqirement for all male citizens for a few years to get training, then serve in times of war, with very few lifetime soldiers. There are modern cultures with the same setup. I'd bet the Elves work the same way.

[Ozymandias9]

the Order, the exemplars of professionalism!

Well, semi-trained quasi-professionalism anyways.

[Teddy]

This was supposed to be posted 8 hours ago, but the internet shutted down before I managed to submit it. Anyway...

I go with those who say that the OotS-world isn't flooded with magic. If every spellcaster spent his (or her) entire free time scribing scrolls, then the treasure hoards that the good guys encountered in the first book (and anywhere else, altough they are a lot fewer in appearance) would be covered in scrolls. Seriously, the Order only got a few magic items from Xykon's hoard in the end of book one...

XP might be easy to come by for a PC, but a NPC Wizard probably doesn't spend his weekends clearing out kobolds from caves. Creating hundreds of scrolls would cost a lot of money (note that almost no commoners got enough money to buy even the simpliest magic items. Even if you did create hundreds of scrolls and put them on sale, you would get very few customers), and the XP cost would be a huge drawback.

The OotS-world is mostly inhabitated by low-level NPCs. The azurite army consited mostly of soldiers of 5th level or below (presumeably Warriors, since Fighters indicate special training), and that's probably the avarage for the rest of the worlds inhabitants (even for the elves, because of the reasons Haley speak of in otOoPCs (in short words: otherwise the elves would rue the world)). Add to that that Wizards and Sorcerers are particulary uncommon (requiring great knowledge or inborn talent), and we get very few casters capable of create magic items of especially high level, since NPC Clerics and Druids spend most of their time doing their divine duties.

The same thing applies to the hobbos, where the only characters of noteable level whe have encountered so far are Xykon, Redcloak, Tsukiko and Jirix (who, BTW, is dead). There are probably few (if any) other Hobbos of noticeable level, since Xykon kills minions that reaches a too high level (as seen in one of the bonus strips in NCftPB)
Xykon wouldn't care if the entire city suddenly dissapeared, and thus it's highly unlikely he bothered to create and set up magical sensors all over the city.
Redcloak has spent most of his free time away from Xykon trying to establish the hobgoblin precence in Azure City by trying to organize the repairs and establish diplomatic contracts with other nations. It's most likely that he relies on lesser magic combined with creativity when it comes to security (Dancing Lights, which BTW is unavailible to Clerics, but they probably have their methods of alarm too). Him spending valuable time placing out magical sensors in the mountains is unlikely. That a real threat would manage to wreak uncontrollable havoc just because there wasn't a magic sensor watching over a secret pass in the mountains is not very plausible, and thus it's waste of time trying to prevent it.
Tsukiko only cares about the Undead.
Jirix probably spent his time carrying out Redcloaks orders to the hobbos most of the time he weren't together with Redcloak, or organizing some part of the build of a hobgoblin nation.

Then I have to add that the lost patrol probably won't be missed the next few hours (they had a cleric, thus it's more likely that Redcloak relies on visual magic when it comes to reporting unusuall things).

The cloister prevents any forms of scrying from noticing the hobgoblin patrol, and the elves probably used some sort of divination anyway to find a good "landing pad" for the teleportation.

Magical sensors would probably be crafted with the ability to detect invisible and flying creatures if crafted at all. That's at least the thing I would do if I was paranoid about high-level adventurers invading my city.

And of course, the preservation of spells. I wouldn't throw away many valuable spell slots to cover the teleportation when they probably are much more needed inside the city. And what would have happened if team Evil was alerted of Peregrin's precence? It wouldn't be much harder to fly + invisibility past Tsukiko, much less a hobgoblin investigation patrol (depending on the complexity of the signal that the Clerics use).

Taking into account that team Peregrin knows more about some things than team Evil (the weakneses of the Cloister, for example), and more about others than team Evil would expect to be possible (the existence of the closter spell in the first case, together with the existence of the secret passages, the resistance and a lot more circumstances that exist for the moment, and I would say that expecting that team Evil would try to take poweful measures against such an unlikely attack or that the elves would expect them to take such measures is to overthink.

[Pyron]

I don't know if this has already been mention before, but ...

I would say that this group is anything but pro.

Why? Because these elves waited (months) until Hinjo had to inform them to pierce the cloister spell the old fashion way: ie, on foot. The elves were frustrated with the cloister's defense, yet none of them thought of that. :smallconfused:

[Dark Faun]

It's possible it's a subversion; elves are always expected to be the closest thing there is to perfection bar paladins (annoyingly so), and those of OotS are in fact the dumbest idiots you'll ever meet. :smallwink:

[Killer Angel]

All this discussion, can boil down to just one thing:
Attacking the hobbos' patrol, can alert the enemy? maybe not, but it's certainly a risk.
Going invisible, without attacking, can diminish such risk? yes.

So, the even command act foolishly. This is not connected to the artistic valor of the comic, but only on the tactical aspects of the "infiltration".

[Herald Alberich]

I don't know if this has already been mention before, but ...

I would say that this group is anything but pro.

Why? Because these elves waited (months) until Hinjo had to inform them to pierce the cloister spell the old fashion way: ie, on foot. The elves were frustrated with the cloister's defense, yet none of them thought of that. :smallconfused:

That doesn't say anything about the skills of this group of elven adventurers. They're not going to do anything, no matter how skilled they are, until ordered by Elven Command.

And Elven Command, until informed of the abilities and limits of Cloister, had no idea what would happen if they tried to just go walking in. They wouldn't risk actual lives on the chance that, say, anyone not approved to cross the border would get zapped by Epic magic.

[Pyron]

That doesn't say anything about the skills of this group of elven adventurers. They're not going to do anything, no matter how skilled they are, until ordered by Elven Command.

It does speak of the collective wisdom and intelligence of the Elves in general, since not one of them even THINK: Hey let's do some recon on foot? Let's Commune with the Elven gods? Let's do some aerial recon?


And Elven Command, until informed of the abilities and limits of Cloister, had no idea what would happen if they tried to just go walking in. They wouldn't risk actual lives on the chance that, say, anyone not approved to cross the border would get zapped by Epic magic.

Have any proof to back up this claim?

[Snake-Aes]

Have any proof to back up this claim?

It's called common sense. No military sends soldiers blindly to hostile territory.

[Herald Alberich]

It does speak of the collective wisdom and intelligence of the Elves in general, since not one of them even THINK: Hey let's do some recon on foot? Let's Commune with the Elven gods? Let's do some aerial recon?

You think they would risk valuable high-level elven lives on incomplete information, after Hinjo tells us they're "slow to go to war" in the first place, and also frustrated about the lack of knowledge? You don't know that they didn't think of these things. Who's to say that all of your ideas didn't occur to them, but they decided that they were bad ideas and not worth the risk? Maybe they thought Cloister has no height limit, and would kill any aerial recon. They had no idea of its limits until Hinjo told them.

*looks up Commune* Ok, it'd be pretty dumb for them not to do this. But perhaps the elven gods don't know anything; Cloister was researched by a human and used by only two beings, ever.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm: "'Unclear' is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient."


Have any proof to back up this claim?

No, I'm speculating. You claimed that the elves didn't even think of a number of ideas, I say they may well have, but decided not to do them. Maybe that was the wrong decision on their part, but you can't say they didn't think about it.

[Rogue 7]

It's called common sense. No military sends soldiers blindly to hostile territory.

Really? I thought that was the basic definition of a "scout".

What if Team Evil simply didn't have the resources to cover all the possible entries into Azure City with magical detection? The elves, having access to decent scrying spells, picked up on which passes were viable (read: manually patrolled) and went in there. If the pass is as narrow as it looks, an encounter with Hobgoblins would be inevitable, even if invisible- it's far too likely that a hobbo would bump into one of them invisible and set up the whole thing. So better to get in there and kill them fast- initiate combat on your terms rather than the enemy's. Since the elves know that this area isn't being magically watched, they have a much greater window of opportunity to infiltrate.

And I know that if I was an evil overlord and had the same access to meta-gaming munchkinnery folks have been bandying around in this thread, I know I'd be on the lookout for heavy use of magic rather than the good old fashioned elbow grease the elves here used. The Giant made a similar point when Xykon was chewing out V- with all that arcane power, when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail. Only, everything isn't a nail- sometimes you need to go out and get that phillips-head screwdriver. V learned that lesson pretty hard just a few strips ago.

[Snake-Aes]

You think they would risk valuable high-level elven lives on incomplete information, after Hinjo tells us they're "slow to go to war" in the first place, and also frustrated about the lack of knowledge? You don't know that they didn't think of these things. Who's to say that all of your ideas didn't occur to them, but they decided that they were bad ideas and not worth the risk? Maybe they thought Cloister has no height limit, and would kill any aerial recon. They had no idea of its limits until Hinjo told them.

*looks up Commune* Ok, it'd be pretty dumb for them not to do this. But perhaps the elven gods don't know anything; Cloister was researched by a human and used by only two beings, ever.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm: "'Unclear' is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient."



No, I'm speculating. You claimed that the elves didn't even think of a number of ideas, I say they may well have, but decided not to do them. Maybe that was the wrong decision on their part, but you can't say they didn't think about it.

Epic scrying did penetrate the Cloister, and the gods...well, it depends on their portfolio.

[Snake-Aes]

Really? I thought that was the basic definition of a "scout".Note that, while they didn't have the tech we do, they have something that can be just better too: SCrying. If their sensors couldn't detect anything, and the only people capable of reaching the place in able time were valuable assets(like said level 9+ arcanist), you'd think twice. Or thrice.


Also, with regards to "All that munchkinery magic", our biggest reason to say they were foolish to attack the troops is that if any hobgoblin goes missing, they will rise unnecessary suspicion.

[Teddy]

It does speak of the collective wisdom and intelligence of the Elves in general, since not one of them even THINK: Hey let's do some recon on foot? Let's Commune with the Elven gods? Let's do some aerial recon?

The gods are not allowed to interfere on the material plane outside their "sphere of influence" (which should be the elven lands for the elven gods). I don't know if commune would be restricted by such a rule (since the entire OotS-world is a giant homebrew), but it's not unreasonable that the elven gods simply doesn't know. What happens on the southern continent probably isn't that important to them...

[Herald Alberich]

Epic scrying did penetrate the Cloister, and the gods...well, it depends on their portfolio.

Not quite familiar enough with D&D to know what that means, but from a post earlier I gather it has something to do with the domains they can grant to their clerics. That is a good point about the View from Above.

Also, at the risk of subverting my own point, it did occur to me that Dorukan discussing his ubermagic that protects his castle but allows Lirian in would make for excellent pillow talk, and from Lirian it could maybe get back to the elven gods. She was a divine caster after all.

I guess the overall impression I got out of this thread is that yes, the elves could have gone about this better, but considering the resources, temperament, and current state of their opponent, what they ended up doing is plenty good enough.

[Snake-Aes]

Not quite familiar enough with D&D to know what that means, but from a post earlier I gather it has something to do with the domains they can grant to their clerics. That is a good point about the View from Above.

Also, at the risk of subverting my own point, it did occur to me that Dorukan discussing his ubermagic that protects his castle but allows Lirian in would make for excellent pillow talk, and from Lirian it could maybe get back to the elven gods. She was a divine caster after all.

I guess the overall impression I got out of this thread is that yes, the elves could have gone about this better, but considering the resources, temperament, and current state of their opponent, what they ended up doing is plenty good enough.
By Epic Scrying, I meant the scrying device used by Roy and his father to check on azure city, it worked smoothly.

Divine Portfolios are basically a few themes they revolve around. Wynna, for example, is the goddess of Magic, her portfolio is Magic.(It is possible to have more than one portfolio). Gods are, apparently, omniscient towards their portfolios.

[Herald Alberich]

By Epic Scrying, I meant the scrying device used by Roy and his father to check on azure city, it worked smoothly.

Right, I know. Eugene refers to it as the View From Above (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html).


Divine Portfolios are basically a few themes they revolve around. Wynna, for example, is the goddess of Magic, her portfolio is Magic.(It is possible to have more than one portfolio). Gods are, apparently, omniscient towards their portfolios.

Hmm, ok. Thanks.

[sagelnarg]

If your mission is not "recon", but "guerilla warfare", you try to spread as much terror as possible. You WANT to get noticed. You don't want an open battle of course, so you try not to get caught or pinned down. So the term "covert insertion" would still apply.

And because the strip went great lengths to explain how the "good guys" have stratetic initiative due to all that intelligence they got, maybe the elves are not here for recon, but for war. ("Liberation: commencing", and all that)

[Snake-Aes]

If your mission is not "recon", but "guerilla warfare", you try to spread as much terror as possible. You WANT to get noticed. You don't want an open battle of course, so you try not to get caught or pinned down. So the term "covert insertion" would still apply.

And because the strip went great lengths to explain how the "good guys" have stratetic initiative due to all that intelligence they got, maybe the elves are not here for recon, but for war. ("Liberation: commencing", and all that)
Their primary objective is meeting the Resistance. Revealing yourself before that is as much an unnecessary risk as before.

[Mant]

Their primary objective is meeting the Resistance. Revealing yourself before that is as much an unnecessary risk as before.

And why is that?

[Snake-Aes]

And why is that?

Do you want the enemy to be more alert than the normal when you want to sneak around?

[paddyfool]

According to standard depictions of elven defences as being based on small, highly elite forces in the absence of sufficient numbers for hordes of mooks, they really should be pretty practiced in such special forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces) missions (especially given racial bonuses, and the fact that this is a world where individuals can become obscenely powerful casters or unbelievably proficient skill-monkeys). So I'm hoping there's more to this insertion than meets the eye, but I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

[sagelnarg]

Their primary objective is meeting the Resistance. Revealing yourself before that is as much an unnecessary risk as before.

That's their next step, not necessarily their primary objective. Dunno.
If their goal was to go unnoticed, they could have done better, agreed.

But what would be the point of that mission?

[fruityjanitor]

AGAIN, a 9th level Wizard has PLENTY of spells through scrolls, wands, staffs etc. And by plenty I mean plenty. Thirty 6-spell scrolls take only 1 month of work by one wizard to scribe, and that's 180 spells of any level available to him right there. Did I say "work"? I meant "no work at all", since with the Quill of Scribing the scrolls write themselves while the wizard rests. Selling these scrolls with Master Artisan brings a hefty profit, which can be used to make, well, more scrolls. Become rich and more powerful at the same time. By level 9, the Wizard has far more power at his fingertips than the meager "spells per day" would indicate.


Why should this random elf wizard be more optimized than basically any other character we've seen in the entire comic?

I'm surprised how much argument this OP has sparked with just a little bit of joking around.

[Magnema]

I'm surprised how much argument this OP has sparked with just a little bit of joking around.

As am I.

But anyway, I feel that they are not necessarily wonderful at infiltrating - but I, personally, also realize that the wizard has a life outside of his wizardry and thus he might have spells that he will use in his every day life (such as dancing lights, to stay up late reading, or prestidigitation, for many reasons) or that will greatly simplify certain tasks that happen reasonably often (such as taking a trip with teleport). he would not necessarily take things that he would need once in a long time (such as, perhaps, invisibility or fly.) He may even have his primary job be crafting alchemical items, and wizardry is a hobby that naturally goes along with that.

Personally, if I were a wizard, I would not study spells/craft magic items every day for 8 hours. I would particularly not research spells I would be unlikely to use. Certain "utility" spells are only utility in adventuring, such as invisibility and fly, thus I would probably not research them unless I wanted to adventure all my life.

Oh, and also, FYI, if the party's average level is 8 or lower, they do gain XP for beating the hobgoblins (a CR 1 encounter gives 200 XP to 8th level adventurers, and this is beyond CR 1.) Their average level could be 8 or lower if the wizard is the highest level in the group - quite possible.

Also, I find Xykon unlikely to take many scrying spells - see his problem solving strategy in SOD - so it would be entirely up to Redcloak (torturing O-chul until recently, now probably leading search for phylactery), Jirix (probably either still dead or helping Redcloak), Tsukiko (making undead or searching for the phylactery), and assorted hobgoblins (now probably searching for the phylactery as well.) Or, most likely, a combination of Redcloak in his spare time and Xykon watching Teevo.

I apologize if this is a bit really jumbled.:smalltongue:

[Snake-Aes]

That's their next step, not necessarily their primary objective. Dunno.
If their goal was to go unnoticed, they could have done better, agreed.

But what would be the point of that mission?

There is little difference. When your first priority is "Get from point a to point b within hostile territory that you can't fend off on your own", staying stealthy is still the thing to do.

[rxmd]

Why should this random elf wizard be more optimized than basically any other character we've seen in the entire comic?

I'm surprised how much argument this OP has sparked with just a little bit of joking around.

I guess it's because it just coincided nicely with the discussions between the "Elves suck/are gay/get on my nerves" and the "Elves rock/turn me on/I want to be one" fractions among roleplayers that has given us things like all-orc anti-elf adventuring parties and the bumblebee elves of LARP fame.

With the introduction of Team Peregrine, this discussion was bound to pop up sooner or later and it's probably here to stay, it's just that the OP happened to provide the spark for one of the first ones.

[Pyron]

It's called common sense. No military sends soldiers blindly to hostile territory.

The Elven Command (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html) does. :smallwink:


You think they would risk valuable high-level elven lives on incomplete information, after Hinjo tells us they're "slow to go to war" in the first place, and also frustrated about the lack of knowledge?

Yes. When you're frustrated by the lack of knowledge you don't just sit on your hands and give up. The E.C. has the magic and resources to actually gain intelligence despite the Cloister. Can't scry in the city? Then keep scrying every couple miles out until you can. Doing that you'll get the estimate on the spells radius. Afraid to fly-by over head? Send a celestial eagle and watch.

They could had used the scientific method to actually gain some intelligence.


*looks up Commune* Ok, it'd be pretty dumb for them not to do this. But perhaps the elven gods don't know anything; Cloister was researched by a human and used by only two beings, ever.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm: "'Unclear' is a legitimate answer, because powerful beings of the Outer Planes are not necessarily omniscient."

You got a point about having an unclear answer. But, I think it's odd that the elven gods with their portfolio of magic and ancient secrets, not know anything about an Epic Spell.


No, I'm speculating. You claimed that the elves didn't even think of a number of ideas, I say they may well have, but decided not to do them. Maybe that was the wrong decision on their part, but you can't say they didn't think about it.

Actually, I can. We (the reader) also know the limitations around the cloister spell. Apply a little creative thinking and we can up with some ideas to step around it, or least learn something.

Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html): "Let's just say that your wizard friend isn't the only one frustrated by the lack of available intelligence from the homeland".

There's the proof. We know they (the elves) lacked the intelligence. That shouldn't be the case.

[Bibliomancer]

Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html): "Let's just say that your wizard friend isn't the only one frustrated by the lack of available intelligence from the homeland".

There's the proof. We know they (the elves) lacked the intelligence. That shouldn't be the case.

They presumably knew everything outside the Cloister, including patrol routes and their strengths/weaknesses. Thus, assume for now that they know what they're doing. Also, Thanh could have been their advance agent in the city.

They couldn't know anything about the city itself because Commune is a divination spell. Thus, outside Epic Magic, there is no way to penetrate the Cloister.

[Pyron]

They presumably knew everything outside the Cloister, including patrol routes and their strengths/weaknesses.

How?

Hinjo's dialouge said the E.C. was lacking intelligence. They had no information, including patrols. Otherwise, they would had timed their teleport to not warp in the smack middle of one.


Thus, assume for now that they know what they're doing.

If you want to argue that E.C. knows what they're doing then please provide evidence and present your case. That's all I ask.

Please don't tell me to assume anything when there is nothing to base it on.


Also, Thanh could have been their advance agent in the city.

:smallconfused: Thahn an advance agent for Team Peregrine? That's gold.

Remember, Thahn was a member of the resistance working with Haley. If Thahn knew about them (and E.C. was aware of the cloister's limitation), then he would had told her and most of the problems they faced would has been moot: Things like the food shortages, knowledge of the cloister (which Celia needed to tell Haley to get a move on), and most important: finding a cleric who can resurrect Roy!


They couldn't know anything about the city itself because Commune is a divination spell.



You contact your deity—or agents thereof —and ask questions that can be answered by a simple yes or no.

Commune is not it's divination to scry through the Cloister. It's contacting a Deity to answer questions. The Deity themselves are more power than any epic spell, so they can look into the city. The elves can also ask about the nature of the Cloister.

Yes. This might be a crap shoot because the Elven Gods might simply not know.


Thus, outside Epic Magic, there is no way to penetrate the Cloister.

Hinjo: "Sure we do. We just got to do it the old fashion way."

That's right. Last time I've checked, you don't need Epic Magic to walk. :smallyuk:

[Snake-Aes]

How?

Hinjo's dialouge said the E.C. was lacking intelligence. They had no information, including patrols. Otherwise, they would had timed their teleport to not warp in the smack middle of one.

This is solved in a simple way: Teleport an extra mile away. It's much easier to hide and sneak in stealthily if you notice the enemy before he notices you.

[Undead Prince]

Kudos to Ozymandias9 for a monstrous yet thoughtful post 8=)


Xykon noted, with O'Chul present, the ammount of time and effort needed to recover it. You are correct, I should not have said "know": "can surmise" would be a better way of putting it... I'm not suggesting that he wouldn't. I'm suggesting that he's not going to be predisposed to seeking them out if he does not know they are present.

If there was at least a non-negligible possibility of Xykon being all over them the moment he receives word of intruders, why risk it? That’s the core question here.

Competent infiltrators would not take the needless risk.



You've not demonstrated that Xykon has invested in said monitoring capacity, much less that he is using it.

We’ve had ample evidence that Redcloak’s busy fortifying Azure City. Knowing him and the pedantic nature of the lawful hobgoblins, this would include border defense. The first tier of any defense is recon. The goblin patrol itself is proof that the borders are not ignored. After V’s attack, the entire Team Evil camp is buzzing like a nest of angry wasps – they’re alarmed, they’re on their toes, and even though the bulk of their efforts will soon be directed towards finding the phylactery, they’re likely to lash out at any other threat coming their way. Xykon could be the first to react, seeing how in his phylactery-less state he feels both pissed and vulnerable.

To needlessly gamble on Team Evil’s complacency in this time of crisis is to take a pointless risk. That is not professional conduct.



He has a crystal ball, which can be obscured by any of several anti-scrying spells.

Considering that the elves have not taken precautions against mundane spotting by visual contact, do you find it likely they’re cocooned in anti-scrying spells? I certainly don’t.

Furthermore, Team Evil might very well have a bunch of crystal balls. They’ve got three high-level casters, including an epic one who we know is constantly producing magic items; they also have hundreds of low-level casters, who could at the very least be scribing scrolls and crafting wondrous items of 0- and 1st level spells at dirt-cheap cost.

Even if they aren’t, would it be professional to take the needless risk? No.


He's not demonstrated any other significant scrying capacity, and there are very few other powerful casters at his disposal.

As often happens in OoTS, things are demonstrated once they’re important to the plot. Xykon’s scrying mojo has already been established; it is possible that during his months at Azure City he’s developed new scrying methods.

Regarding the other casters, Redcloak, Tsukiko and Jirix among themselves could produce wagonloads of items during these months, even if they were engaged in crafting on an irregular basis.

And stuff like single-use items of Dancing Lights could easily have been crafted by the hobgoblin army's hundreds of low-level casters.


Moreover, like I said, he has little interest in providing such defences to a base he sees as disposable. O'Chul should be able to pass on Xykon's limited valuation of the city, which should be easily extrapolated from the fact that he's being tortured for information about a location on the other side of the world.

Again, you’re missing the fact that though Xykon doesn’t give much thought to Azure City (still enough to spend a fortune on those glyphs of warding, though), Redcloak and his entire 40,000 hobgoblin army are determined to make the city into an impregnable stronghold and have been engaged in this task for the last 6 months.


Unless someone is actively watching them kill the hobos, the mission is still covert.

That’s a big unless, isn’t it? So once again, why take the pointless risk?


High listen and spot checks should be sufficient to spot mundane sentries. And they do have convenient racial bonuses to those skills.

A 1st level hobgoblin wizard’s eagle familiar would have a +16 Spot unbuffed. And the Peregrines would not even recognize the eagle as enemy recon. See, this is the kind of stupid risk they’re taking for no real gain.



As point of fact, this method must have worked at least passably for Haley's party for some time, since they were carrying out missions to free slaves and such for some time without access to any primary spell casters powerful enough to conjure basic foodstuffs.

And as far as I remember, Haley had her butt handed to her by the Black Squadron, precisely due to Team Evil’s combination of magic & mundane early warning tactics.

So, once more, why take the risk?



This was, as far as we know, the peak of their signaling strategy during Haley's time leading the resistance. Why would we assume that their means have grown exponentially since?

Because their means have been shown as consistently growing before?

Team Evil is shown as constantly devising new means of heightening security. The Dancing Lights tactic was a direct example. It's only reasonable to suppose that they have some other tricks up their sleeve, especially since Haley taught them the limits of their previous tactics.

Besides, Team Evil was treating the Resistance half-heartedly before. Both Xykon and Redcloak were interested in other things. Now, when Xykon’s entire existence has been threatened and Redcloak learned a painful lesson about complacency, they are liable to react with much more severe force to any indication of outside intervention.

So why place the entire operation at risk by hoping they wouldn't?



Where have we seen indication that Xykon has vast numbers of Zombie harpies and devas that survived the battle for the city?

We haven’t seen the full scale of his hobgoblin legions or undead horde after the battle, but it doesn’t mean they’re not there. He had specific interest in zombie flyers, and took a bunch of them into the siege; it’s only reasonable to suppose that a good number survived, and since they don’t need to eat or rest, they make excellent long-range scouts.

Besides, making new ones is a piece of cake. Even lowish-level clerics (like Jirix) with access to 3rd level spells (Animate Dead) could create dozens of 1 HD zombie critters with high racial Spot bonuses (eagles etc.) and set them to patrolling the borders.

Why risk it?



Where have we seen that he's made any considerable investment in the security of the city?

Glyphs in the throne room. Constantly making new magic items. Allowing Red and Pigtails to tackle the Resistance and fortify the city.


Where have we seen another caster who has the capacity other than Redcloak, who was already having to go to considerable lengths to con Xykon merely into hanging around longer?

Tsukiko created, trained, and leads her own Resistance-hunting crack team. Also, the many low-level casters of the hobgoblin army. More than enough for the task.


Actually, I've read the whole thread.

Doesn’t seem like it, because of statements like this:


1 is valid only if they expect to be able to rest and re-memorize spells in the near future.

Was there any talk about the Wizard’s spells per day? Only in the context that they become increasingly irrelevant as the Wizard grows in level & wealth and increases his hoard of magic items.

When you have hundreds of spells at your disposal in the form of scrolls, wands, staffs, skull talismans, continuous and use-activated wondrous items etc., spells per day are just a fraction of your arsenal, and spending a few is entirely negligible. Particularly considering the importance of this mission and the resources backing it up.


I would never let a party going into an occupied city regularly rest for long periods. Even when they reach the resistance hideout, there should still be the risk the the base is discovered and they would have to flee quickly. Reliable rest should never be a feature of a war zone.

And that’s one of the reasons I can’t really believe into you as a DM. Meta-DMing like this is specifically warned against in the DMG.

What if the party has Stones of Alarm? What if they’re using Rope Trick, or Magnificent Mansion, or another type of extraplanar resting place? What if they set up an Instant Fortress and tell their undead minions to stand guard? Would you still not let them rest, even if all they’re doing is raiding a goblin tribe whose best spellcaster is a first-level shaman?

The challenge should stem from the objective circumstances, not DM fiat.

But anyway, it’s irrelevant. A 9th level wizard can be counted upon to achieve his mission objective without the need to rest.



For 2, I actually noted that it was reasonable for Elven command to supply such items in my original post. I find it one of the most convincing points of your argument.

Excellent then. I believe another convincing point of my argument is that attacking the goblin patrol while being fully visible/uncloaked was an unnecessary risk, and that these circumstances combined point to the questionable professional competence of the Peregrines (and their command). If you’ll agree to that, I think we’re done.


Scrying is explicitly limited: if the patrol left the area of Cloister and entered the location teleported to after the scry and before the teleport. And if they are predisposed to sneaking rather than Invisibility, for whatever reason, then a fight that they teleported into despite attempts to gather intelligence would not be avoidable.

Well, why wouldn’t they be predisposed towards Invisibility? They’ve got a Wizard of at least 9th level (probably selected from a number of candidates as the most suitable for a covert operation), a cleric who was similarly selected and thus might have Illusion and/or Transmutation spells on her domain list, and supposedly the might of the elven nation to back them up, in the form of magic items or pre-casted buffs. Invisibility would probably be the most efficient tool of infiltration they could use, and it’s pretty cheap as well, whether in the form of spells or magic items. Combine it with Fly and maybe Silence (also cheap spells), and you’ve got a team whose stealth, speed and survivability are improved by orders of magnitude. So, why not do it? Why take the needless risk of detection and failure?


Right. Other than the fact that I've been GMing for a decade and a half. And the fact that I own and have read every 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 book from WoTC and TSR.

I can certainly respect that, but sincerely, some of your statements strike as somewhat weird for such an experienced DM. For instance, crafting magic items as "questionably believable endeavour" because it costs XP. Haven’t you ever heard that experience is a river? Crafting magic items is a fundamentally profitable activity mechanics-wise, and even without special optimization a crafting wizard would usually be much better off than a non-crafter in terms of power. Fluff-wise, crafting is a major element of the entire D&D system (seeing how all magic items available for trade and looting were crafted by someone) and play a major role in all campaign settings. In fact, crafting magic items in the D&D fantasy worlds is equivalent to modern industry – i.e. it’s a backbone of society and an indispensable element of power. Dismissing it as “questionably believable” shows that you’ve simply never encountered a player who actually made use of crafting, and never bothered to calculate the crafting mechanic's actual game effect.


Wizards get scribe scroll as a class feature: other crafting feats must be selected over metamagic feats of considerable utility.

Scribe scroll is all a Wizard needs to greatly increase his power and wealth. And at early levels (such as 5th, the first bonus feat level for Wizard) metamagic feats are useless, while crafting feats are immensely useful.


This isn't Forgotten Realms, which is one of the most extreme examples of an explicitly high powered, high magic setting. Nor is it Eberron, where Artificers are a player class. It's not even Greyhawk: it's homebrew.

OoTS is a pretty magic-intensive world, and its casters are not afraid to craft (except the dumb ones like V). Your point being?


Moreover, it's a homebrew were the bulk of troops on both sides of a battle for a major city is made up of low level characters (though oddly enough, fighters rather than warriors for some reason).

The same in Forgotten Realms, Eberron etc. You’ve read the FRCS, PGTF, UE, SS, Waterdeep, Power of Faerun – right? So you’ve noticed that the armies and garrisons are indeed, quantitatively speaking, mostly composed of 1st level fighters and warriors. But there are also some higher-level characters such as warmages and battle clerics, and it’s the same in OoTS – the Azurites had entire units of paladins, clerics, and wizards (such as the diviner circle), and so did Team Evil (the numerous hobo clerics and wizards we’ve encountered).


Yes, and a 20th level wizard can scribe it for the same cost if they scribe it at caster level 1.

How is that relevant? The character level mattered with regard to receiving XP from low-CR creatures - a 20th level wizard would get zero for that cat. So what's the point of your remark?


My objection was to the idea of a character who did nothing but pump out such items without end for no purpose other than money as something that is unquestionable available.

1. No one claimed that he DID NOTHING ELSE, right? In fact I specifically noted that, for instance, by using a Quill of Scribing the Wizard loses NO TIME AT ALL to crafting magic items.

2. Pumping out magic items for profit is both much safer and much more profitable than risking your fragile body in dungeons fighting monsters. At the early levels, when the wizard is very vulnerable, crafting is very much preferable. At later levels it’s still an indispensable source of income and added power.

3. Why would it not be “available”? You’ve got the feats, the money, the XP – what’s to stop you from crafting?


And any GM/DM who allows the cat thing deserves to be dragged out behind the shed and Old Yeller'd. Part of a DM's job is, at least in my opinion, to prevent game mechanics from degenerating under unintended use.

Unintended use? Did I get that right? You mean gaining XP by killing creatures from the Monster Manual is an unintended use of the system?

Sure, I know what you’re thinking: “He makes it sound so easy, I can’t allow something as simple and efficient in my game. My other players would rebel”. Well, the job of a good DM is not to break rules in order to make some players happy at the expense of other players. The job of a good DM is to try and make everyone happy while staying within the rules.

Your first reaction to my suggestion was “Ban it because it looks too simple and efficient”. Had you actually put some thought into the situation, you would have noticed some important undertones.

First, have you even checked the common cat’s stats in the Monster Manual? It might seem like a harmless fluffy creature, but it's got a +4 attack bonus (like a 1st level fighter with 16 STR), 14 AC (same fighter wearing scale mail), 30ft speed, and a +16 Hide and +8 Move Silently bonus. For a Wizard with only 2 hitpoints, -3 to melee attack, AC 11 (15 with Mage Armor) and banned Evocation, catching and killing that cat mano-a-mano could be a not-so-easy task.

So, when I played my Wizard, I usually had my hirelings kill the critters first, or at least restrain them. That way I still get the XP (hirelings don’t take away XP like party members, as per DMG) without the risk.

How’s that different from a 1st level party of four killing a single goblin with a CR of 1/2? The challenge is little, and so is the XP award (after all, you need 1,000 to even get to 2nd level). But even these meager chunks of XP are plenty enough for the wizard to scribe a goodish amount of scrolls.


I never said they weren't powerful. Academics, as you alluded to, split the atom. But a scientist who discovers fission and does basic refinement on the understanding of it's mechanics is not the same as a nuclear weapons production program.

And that's your core misunderstanding of the class. See, wizards are among other things, weapons production programs. In fact, no one but wizards can actually produce upon the basis of their research. Moreover, they're the weapons' end users - and again, no one else can use their research to fullest potential.

Your description of wizards as “academics” ignores the fact that they’re the Research & Development, the production, the delivery, and the end battlefield user – all rolled into one. They’re Oppenheimer, and the factory, and the bomb, and the bomber (and the recon, and many other things). So calling them merely “academics” does not reflect their nature – any more than “big metal cylinder” reflects the nature of a nuclear ICBM.


For such a program to be more than an isolated example, you have to make certain assumptions about total population and economy necessary to support enough of the specialized kind of scientist/engineer necessary to perpetuate the program.

Similarly, you have to make similar assumptions about population and economics relative to a specific subset of wizards to make your proposed system a reasonable fixture in a game world for anything other than an isolated case.

It’s not “my proposed system”. You, who claims to have read all the 3.5 WotC material, ought to know that magic item crafting has long been incorporated into D&D economy. DMG II, FRCS, PGtF, Power of Faerun all have particular mechanical insight into how such an economy would work. There are specific guilds, organizations, and entire countries devoted to crafting magic items on an industrial scale. It’s extremely pronounced in Forgotten Realms and Eberron, the two most developed 3.5 WoTC settings.

Apart from setting-specific situations, the D&D system offers a great number of feats, abilities, items, and even entire classes which revolve around crafting magic items.

Finally, gamers have developed extensive, comprehensive methods and strategies for utilizing these factors to the best advantage of their characters.

In light of the above, saying that continuous crafting is “questionably believable” goes against the objective reality of D&D.


Well, its certainly true in most of the Forgotten Realms books I've read. I find the power level of the OotS world more in line with Dragonlance, where we have wizards commenting that a colleague (and an evil one at that) should have kept keeping her town clear of rats for payment, as she had done for decades, instead of making a local power grab. (IIRC, the reference is from Soulforge).

I like Dragonlance, and Soulforge was a decent book (am currently in wait for the Dragons of the Hourglass Mage); but I think you’ll agree that magic mechanics is not the strong point of Tracey/Hickman as writers. I’ve almost cried when I read the stats for the two Black Moon high mages at the end of Dragon Disciple I. These guys hardly ever cast any spells, were walking around filthy & barefooted, with MOPS to clear up dirt in Nuitari’s precious tower. Their method of choice when tasked to kill a high-level character (Minna, the former chief cleric of Takhisis) was to try and cut her with a dagger. They were also quite stupid and petty. I.e. projected the impression of 1st level apprentice wizards, at best (and with pretty low mental stats). Yet according to the stats, they were like 15th level Wizards, in possession of genius-level intelligence and choke-full of dangerous & useful spells – i.e. basically demigods by D&D standards. Even compared to V, one of the least effectual Wizards I’ve seen, they were worthless. Your example of a Black Moon wizardess spending her years as a backwards town’s rat exterminator is another example of how Dragonlance writers often have little clue of the nature & power of magic in D&D.

Compared to Dragonlance, I’d say OoTS is far more normal magic-wise (which is logical seeing how it’s written by a person who actually played D&D). Most of the times, characters at least remember to use their magical abilities, and sometimes they even do it quite efficiently (Xykon at least seems more or less adequate in this respect).



More generally: Just because we see many tales about the knight-errant does not mean we should assume they make up a huge portion of the fighters. We should assume, rather, that their deeds are more suited to serving as a story. Likewise, the fact that wizards who grab for power tend to predominate stories (because they make for good a good story) does not mean that they should predominate the wizardly population in a demographically balanced campaign world.

By power I don’t necessarily mean political power for which you have to “grab”. No, I’m talking character power here – i.e. his capacity to project his will and get what he wants. The exact goals may vary (from world peace to world domination to saving the squirrels) but power is more or less universal. See Xykon’s speech on power – he put it quite eloquently.

There may certainly be complacent characters not interested in further power growth. But as a DM, you can trust your players not to play such characters. After all, gaining XP, levels, abilities & items is the core mechanic of D&D, and the vast majority of players would be interested in making their characters more powerful (in addition to other fun factors such as roleplaying).



If wealth is the ends, your suggested method is certainly an acceptable means. If power is the ends, it must be weighed against the potential of original research. If they are produced in bulk (especially higher level items and wondrous items in particular), it must also be weighed against the lost speed of level advancement.

That’s where the experience is a river concept comes into play. It’s surprising that in your years as DM your players never realized that crafting magic items => profit => more wealth => more power at lower nominal character level => more XP from encounters => more magic items => more wealth => more power etc. is quite a victory loop. If you’re really interested in this, I suggest looking over the excellent studies published at the Wizards Community forums.

And wealth is useless without power – nay, dangerous. If you amass lots of coin through magic item production – or something far more simple, such as making profit from turning adamantine & steel into Adamantine Full Plates via the Fabricate spell – you should be prepared to defend it from possible thiefs, burglars, & tax collectors. So if you don’t want to end up in the gutter with a cut throat, or on the street stripped clean of all your assets by the King’s Treasury Dept., you’d better make sure that the wealth is accompanied by power. Thankfully, being a Wizard, that would not be a problem for you.


Goodness no: they're all about whatever gets them grants to research the thing that's most recently caught their fancy. And giving it a clever acronym to make the grant more lucrative. For the physical sciences in particular (which most gamers connect most strongly with arcane magic), these tend to be of military origin.

Once again, your analogy with academics falls flat, because D&D wizards are the scientists, and the military, and the military-industrial complex, all unto themselves. So they task themselves with research, fund themselves, conduct the research, build the product, use it on the battlefield, and collect the spoils to fund future projects. Closed production loop.


But unless you're positing a patronage system (individual or governmental) in the game world, the application of such a system would seem, to me at least, questionable.

Oh please. A player character gets enough starting resources to launch a crafting business. Regional Benefits (such as those found in FRCS/PGtF) make it even better.

As to patronage, well waddya know, WoTC has LONG AGO DEVELOPED IT in the MOST BASIC RULEBOOKS such as, again, the FRCS, PGtF, PoF, and more recently Player’s Handbook II and Dungeon Master’s Guide II. The patronage comes, for instance, in the form of guilds, organizations & mentors, and serves to significantly boost both the efficiency and security of your business operations.


Moreover, this particular system is only most prominent in recent history. For much of history, physics in particular was the realm of men like Newton: reasonably well off men whose patrons only expected that their output was noteworthy and widely respected, not necessarily immediately useful to a great extent.

Again, you have a completely lopsided concept of magic users. You fail to take into account that they, themselves, are the ones putting their inventions to use, and that none of these inventions are abstract or not useful, on the contrary, they possess great amazing power and can generate great amazing profit.


They can still max out cross class skills: a level 9 can be at 7 ranks without considering skill specialization or bonuses from a familiar.

Skill specialization? Do you actually mean burning a feat to get a +3 skill bonus? Please, that's ridiculous even for OoTS 8=)

Anyway, the Wizard would have much lower skills than a Rogue, or another class with Hide/MS on the list. In a group of sneaky characters, he will be the decamouflaging factor (like Durkon with his clanking armour).

Of course, as a Wizard he has the power to turn himself and the entire team completely invisible and silent. And flying. Oh but wait, this particular Wizard, specifically selected for a covert infiltration, has Illusion and Transmutation as banned schools. So he can’t even use spell-completion magic items of these and other highly useful infiltration spells. Tell me again, why would the Elves select such a Wizard for their mission?


Your dexterity comment seems to assume point buy: I generally presume rolled-- he could merely have rolled well in addition to his relevant racial bonus.

Since he’s an NPC, wouldn’t we have to presume the elite array?


And if a wizard finds that he is often in an infiltration operation, Imp. Initiative would be a reasonable choice.

No, it wouldn’t. First, because for a Wizard with T-n and Illusion banned taking space in covert infiltration teams is not a reasonable choice in the first place. Second, should he really want initiative, there are spells and items that would give bonuses, and there are so many better feats than Imp. In. Third, he can just get his minions to launch the first strike (skeletons, for instance, get +2 DEX and Improved Iniative for free).



This is a reasonable critique: there may, however be other concerns. The wizard in question might have researched a more effective summoning method than the standard gate method.

So he could just let his fellow Stealthy Wizard copy the spell, right?


They might have a wide array of anti-scrying spells and a school focus to combat the sensors you seem to believe are everywhere.

Spell Focus: Abjuration? Oh, come on 8=) First, nondetection spells don’t use DCs so wasting a feat would be pointless. Second, the best way to combat many sensors is be invisible (fools Clairvoyance, for instance, and anyone using other scrying spells who doesn't have See Invisibility on).


They might have considerable divination capacity for use inside the cloister to deal with locating the resistance should the information about their location within the city prove outdated.

Divination cannot be banned so any Wizard would have access to Divination spells, regardless of his specialization. As to actual number of spells available for use, again I emphasize that the Wizard’s “spells per day” limit is rendered obsolete by magic items.


They might merely be part of a regularly operating team which was available to deploy on very short notice while more optimal choices are recalled from other missions (I for one took the final scene as happening close to contemporaneously with the rest of the cells).

You mean the elven nation didn't have an infiltration team that could use Invisibility or Fly? That would be both pathetic and unprofessional, so only proves my point.

Really, any team with a 9th level Wizard and “covert infiltration” on the list of their possible missions ought to have access to Invisibility and Fly. Hell, ANY Wizard ought to have access to Invisibility and Fly. And if they don’t, Command ought to have given them use-activated or continuous items of these spells.


Like you said, it's unknown. There may not be an Elven God of Trickery in OotS.

Like I said, it’s a possibility. Bottom line is, we have not one, but two potential sources of Illusion or Transmutation spells (not counting magic items). And neither of them did the job. Unprofessional.


It made a good exciting picture: the message was intended to create suspense. Essentially, the goal is a cool closing line and picture.

Apart from the fact that it seemed to be rather less cool and more pointless risk in my eyes, I’m not arguing about the authour’s intentions here (unknowable as they may be). I’m simply arguing against the idea that the Peregrines behaved professionally.


Haley, having led the resistance in the city for some time, presumably does. And she has communicated that information to Hinjo.

Her information is, self-admittedly, very dated. And we know that Team Evil’s constantly fielding something new, be it monsters, items, spells, or tactics.


I'm not suggesting [Xykon] doesn't care about the elves, but rather than he doesn't care about the city.

He’s currently tied to the city due to the phylactery being lost somewhere in the sewers. Therefore, he’s liable to treat the elven attack very personally. So why risk it?


Moreover, [Xykon]'s under the impression that V attacked him for Magic street cred. That s/he's "some kind of arcane George Mallory" rather than someone there on a specific mission or quest.

He’s bound to re-evaluate this position once he hears about a group of elite elven infiltrators penetrating his domain. It would be obvious V’s not alone in this. Such a level of danger, combined with his previous frustration, would cause Xykon to go all out on the Peregrines. Why risk it?


Redcloak will do all he can without jeopardizing the Dark One's plan, which has placed him firmly in Xykon's clutches.

How would establishing decent perimeter monitoring be a danger to the Plan? I doubt that Xykon would’ve objected even if he knew – seeing as how he was even willing to spend lots of gold on the glyphs.


And while I think Xykon would kill any elves he found for fun even if he weren't pissed, this presumes he knows they're there. He does not: the resistance has managed to evade his forces for some time without even the magical resources to conjure foodstuffs.

Already covered above, but here's the repeat: Xykon has obviously been not interested in personally pursuing the resistance. Now, however, the situation’s different: he’s very pissed, he’s lacking the phylactery, so he’s liable to treat any intrusion as a threat to his personal safety, and deal with it using overwhelming force. Why risk it?


And a great deal of these judgements are based presumptions about available resources, disposition, game economy, and operational details on both sides that may or may not be accurate. As I pointed out earlier, this is not Forgotten Realms: the elves are not assaulting Thay. They are assaulting a ruined city under the control of one epic caster with a mere handful of mid to high level minions following a battle that was decided primarily by superior numbers of extremely low level characters.

Ruined city? Handful of minions?

Haven't we heard this before? "Now witness the firepower of this fully operational battle station!" Ahem. I mean: rebuilt and possibly strengthened fortress, under the control of an epic caster (do the elves even have one of those?), with two high-level minions, overwhelming numbers of low level mooks, including many casters, and an unknown quantity of created undead & crafted magic items. Oh, and don't forget - protected by the most powerful abjuration ever created, which, interestingly, protects Team Evil from outside interference but does not prevent it from acting against the Resistance or against outside enemies such as the elven nation.

So, again, why take the needless risk of blowing cover?


A more probable issue comes from, as Undead Prince points out, the possibility that dead patrols are routinely subjected to Speak With Dead for debriefing: a 3rd level divine spell is easily in line with the overall level range of the hobo army.

Exactly. So that’s another huge hole in the Peregrines’ “covert” tactics.

Whew. Well, I believe the point's been made quite exhaustively (in all senses). More and more people seem to agree that the Peregrines did not, in fact, behave professionally. So I think we should wrap up the debate for now, and see how things turn out in the next installments about the fearless commandos 8=)

Over and out 8=)

[derfenrirwolv]

I think a lot of you are confusing "not how humans would do things" with stupid. They're elves, they have a different sense of time and priorities.

Humans get a message asking for help from their allies. They spend about a week arguing whether their alliance with the other kingdom is strong enough to risk getting a lich ticked at them.

Human command tries to scry on the area and can't, so they go down to the inn, tack up a sign that says "adventurers wanted" and teleport them a mile out from the cloister. The mage gets to where the cloister should be, gets a "great googly moogly" result and can't tell WHAT the shield does. Does it send teleporters to the ethereal? Alert Xykon if someone crosses it? Kill anyone that enters it? So the party pulls back a bit, has a quick game of rock paper scissors, and someone has to play guinea pig and walk through the shield. After seeing he's not incinerated, the party moves in.

Now, elves work on an entirely different time frame. The messenger gets the sending, strolls accross town to someone that can make introductions to the kings advisor. Since its an urgent matter, the advisor should get to see the king in about a week. The council will then have to look how getting involved (and xykons possible reprisal) and how its going to affect them for a generation or two.. which means the next thousand years. The elves need to argue over who's doing the projections, what methods they should use etc. Then the person has to do them, bring them back to the king or council or whatever, and get it voted on. THEN someone goes on site to investigate, and THEN they come back with new information that theirs a shield in place... and it starts all over again.

Each elven life is a 120 year investment in birthing, educating, raising, and training. Thats not something you throw away lightly, unlike the fast breeding humans cranking out a 1st level fighter every 17 years. (or 14 for henchmen/ NPCMD (non player character mine detector)

[Snake-Aes]

Now, elves work on an entirely different time frame. The messenger gets the sending, strolls accross town to someone that can make introductions to the kings advisor. Since its an urgent matter, the advisor should get to see the king in about a week. The council will then have to look how getting involved (and xykons possible reprisal) and how its going to affect them for a generation or two.. which means the next thousand years. The elves need to argue over who's doing the projections, what methods they should use etc. Then the person has to do them, bring them back to the king or council or whatever, and get it voted on. THEN someone goes on site to investigate, and THEN they come back with new information that theirs a shield in place... and it starts all over again.

Each elven life is a 120 year investment in birthing, educating, raising, and training. Thats not something you throw away lightly, unlike the fast breeding humans cranking out a 1st level fighter every 17 years. (or 14 for henchmen/ NPCMD (non player character mine detector)

Elves are slow to age, not slow to act.Yes, they have much more of a future to look at when that kind of decision makes necessary, but from there to turning it into treebeard's ent council, you're going a little too far.

[Ozymandias9]

Edit: Great Wall of Text. We're talking Wall of the Faithless. Or maybe the Source Wall. TL;DR? Then Skip to the very bottom.


If there was at least a non-negligible possibility of Xykon being all over them the moment he receives word of intruders, why risk it? That’s the core question here.

Competent infiltrators would not take the needless risk.

I think the disagreement here is whether or not they view the risk as non-negligible. Its fair, I think, to expect that the city defenses have grown since Haley's departure. But not that they've gone up by such leaps and bounds as I would take your scenario to imply.

Mundane stealth has been proved sufficient for most cases in the city. If they have means to combat D-Lights, or make themselves very scarce very quickly, they have every reason to believe they can evade capture.

Indeed, if they had absolutely no access to invisibility for short term use in escapes, I would find their endeavor far more questionable. But I'm willing to buy that they're invisibility resources are present but limited.


We’ve had ample evidence that Redcloak’s busy fortifying Azure City. Knowing him and the pedantic nature of the lawful hobgoblins, this would include border defense. The first tier of any defense is recon. The goblin patrol itself is proof that the borders are not ignored. After V’s attack, the entire Team Evil camp is buzzing like a nest of angry wasps – they’re alarmed, they’re on their toes, and even though the bulk of their efforts will soon be directed towards finding the phylactery, they’re likely to lash out at any other threat coming their way. Xykon could be the first to react, seeing how in his phylactery-less state he feels both pissed and vulnerable.

You do make a good case for Xykon changing his MO and taking a personal presence in the city. It also brings me to another idea I hadn't though of: while I find it entirely reasonable that they, knowing of the Dancing Lights system, would be able to successfully hide after its use if they fail to prevent it (keep in mind, Haley was slowed by the fact that she was on a rescue and resupply mission), if they should trip the highest level of the alarm, it would almost certainly attract Xykon's personal attention. He's absurdly genre savvy, and a "High Chance of PC's" makes a race to the phylactery situation to big of a possibility without knowing their goals more specifically.


Considering that the elves have not taken precautions against mundane spotting by visual contact, do you find it likely they’re cocooned in anti-scrying spells? I certainly don’t.

Yes, if only from spell duration concerns. Like I said, I would be very surprised if they had no access to any invisibility of any kind: my question is rather on the assumption of time unlimited invisibility.


As often happens in OoTS, things are demonstrated once they’re important to the plot. Xykon’s scrying mojo has already been established; it is possible that during his months at Azure City he’s developed new scrying methods, maybe even an epic scrying spell that could breach Cloister (after all, spell research can be conducted alongside item crafting, and he was desperately seeking ways to occupy his time).

Actually, IIRC, he should be fully able to scry inside the cloister.


Regarding the other casters, Redcloak, Tsukiko and Jirix among themselves could produce wagonloads of items during these months, even if they were engaged in crafting on an irregular basis.

And stuff like single-use items of Dancing Lights could easily have been crafted by the hobgoblin army's hundreds of low-level casters.

Hundreds assumes that most low-level hobo casters survived the battle, were raised, or were reanimated as undead capable of casting. If you assume that the casters would survive at the same rate as the rest of the army and that the Azurites inflicted anywhere near the 3:1 casualties they were hoping for, then we could be looking at as few as 60 low level casters. Such limited numbers in a city would make me question placing any number on heavy item creation duties, but the single use dancing-lights items might be important enough.

And I can buy Jirix and Tsukiko doing significant item creation. But Redcloak's obsesson with schedule seems, to me, to imply that he's absurdly busy.



Again, you’re missing the fact that though Xykon doesn’t give much thought to Azure City (still enough to spend a fortune on those glyphs of warding, though), Redcloak and his entire 40,000 hobgoblin army are determined to make the city into an impregnable stronghold and have been engaged in this task for the last 6 months.

As to the Glyphs of Warding, those were for his personal lair, so to speak. I would be hesitant to assume that he's invested in the safety of the city at all from the mere fact that he's invested in the safety of the small portion of it he inhabits.


A 1st level hobgoblin wizard’s eagle familiar would have a +16 Spot unbuffed. And the Peregrines would not even recognize the eagle as enemy recon. See, this is the kind of stupid risk they’re taking for no real gain.

A valid point. They should be wearing hooded cloaks so that they aren't easily differentiable from the neighboring human populace or resistance


And as far as I remember, Haley had her butt handed to her by the Black Squadron, precisely due to Team Evil’s combination of magic & mundane early warning tactics.

She "had her butt handed to her" because one of her team members was Lawful-stupid Paladin and didn't retreat. The rest of her party was entirely successful at hiding in time, IIRC.


Because their means have been shown as consistently growing before?

Team Evil is shown as constantly devising new means of heightening security. The Dancing Lights tactic was a direct example. It's only reasonable to suppose that they have some other tricks up their sleeve, especially since Haley taught them the limits of their previous tactics.

Constant growth is not exponential growth. There's a huge rift between the magical equivalent of flare guns and the kind of endeavor you're suggesting: it implies a far greater amount of proactive investment of resources.


Besides, Team Evil was treating the Resistance half-heartedly before. Both Xykon and Redcloak were interested in other things. Now, when Xykon’s entire existence has been threatened and Redcloak learned a painful lesson about complacency, they are liable to react with much more severe force to any indication of outside intervention.

Again, we're presuming that the elves cannot pass themselves off as the resistance long enough to reach the resistance. I'm going to assume only a moderate improvement in the city's defensive measures to date. But, as stated, there are still problems, particularly "Speak with Dead."


We haven’t seen the full scale of his hobgoblin legions or undead horde after the battle, but it doesn’t mean they’re not there. He had specific interest in zombie flyers, and took a bunch of them into the siege; it’s only reasonable to suppose that a good number survived, and since they don’t need to eat or rest, they make excellent long-range scouts.

The battle was presumed as pitched, despite 3-1 odds, because the Azurites had the advantage of significant fortifications. We should be expecting well in excess of 1-1 casualties on the hobo side. Any flying troops, which present a tactical advantage, should have been proactively targeted and thus we should expect an even worse survival rate.


Besides, making new ones is a piece of cake. Even lowish-level clerics (like Jirix) with access to 3rd level spells (Animate Dead) could create dozens of 1 HD zombie critters with high racial Spot bonuses (eagles etc.) and set them to patrolling the borders.

This I buy as a reasonable growth in defenses. But we're talking about low level, unintelligent undead. What they could communicate as to the nature of an incursion would be limited.

Glyphs in the throne room. Constantly making new magic items. Allowing Red and Pigtails to tackle the Resistance and fortify the city.

The Glyphs are in his personal space: there is a difference between protecting his current lair within a city and the city in general.

Likewise, I buy the magic item creation as a substantial boost to his personal power, but I doubt that he's making them with distribution to the city's defenses in mind. They might still get some if he finds it entertaining or useful, especially in light of recent events.

As to the resistance: Redcloak's already convinced him to stick around while they torture O'Chul. The resistance is Good (or at least non-Evil) and there. Why not kill them-- it will be a hoot.


Tsukiko created, trained, and leads her own Resistance-hunting crack team. Also, the many low-level casters of the hobgoblin army. More than enough for the task.

Again, survival rates. Jirix, Tsukiko, and Redcloak are certainly capable casters. But presuming more than 1st or 2nd level spells from the majority of whatever casters remain is something I find questionable.


And that’s one of the reasons I can’t really believe into you as a DM. Meta-DMing like this is specifically warned against in the DMG.

What if the party has Stones of Alarm? What if they’re using Rope Trick, or Magnificent Mansion, or another type of extraplanar resting place? What if they set up an Instant Fortress and tell their undead minions to stand guard? Would you still not let them rest, even if all they’re doing is raiding a goblin tribe whose best spellcaster is a first-level shaman?

Stones of Alarm and Rope Trick would alert them to interruptions in their rest in advance, not prevent the interruption. Magnificent Mansion works, but it also limits their ability to be easily contacted from outside the mansion (in this particular case, I might differently design cloister to avoid it though). And if some other force is capable and willing to defend their rest, yes, by all means let them rest: be it the bulk of an army or a force of undead. But how is that force disposed against the main force of the enemy: if they are themselves being hunted, they might be located and have to evacuate.


The challenge should stem from the objective circumstances, not DM fiat.

In hindsight, I used "war zone" improperly and structured the statement too absolutely: I wouldn't make the same decisions if they were in the countryside following a battle where a few enemy troops still lingered. But in hostile, urban territory where the enemy military is on alert, extended rest should be at a premium-- not because I say so, but because its realistic. The party should have to make significant efforts to get it often, either in terms of evasion or significant fortification.


Excellent then. I believe another convincing point of my argument is that attacking the goblin patrol while being fully visible/uncloaked was an unnecessary risk, and that these circumstances combined point to the questionable professional competence of the Peregrines (and their command). If you’ll agree to that, I think we’re done.

Uncloaked is certainly questionable: it prevents them from passing off as members of the resistance to even casual observation.

While we clearly participate in different kinds of games (I abhor character optimization), I would never suggest that the elvish party's actions are up to the snuff of modern professional covert military teams. But modern special forces are a revolution in warfare. The resources available to Navy SEALs relative to those of the standard soldier dwarf their historical analogues, such as the Immortals of the Persian army or the Kossaks of Russian fame.

Basically, we seem to have different ideas as to what is sufficient to constitute professionalism in the circumstances.


I can certainly respect that, but sincerely, some of your statements strike as somewhat weird for such an experienced DM.

Take it merely as a strong preference for low magic settings since 3rd came out.


For instance, crafting magic items as "questionably believable endeavour" because it costs XP. Haven’t you ever heard that experience is a river? Crafting magic items is a fundamentally profitable activity mechanics-wise, and even without special optimization a crafting wizard would usually be much better off than a non-crafter in terms of power. Fluff-wise, crafting is a major element of the entire D&D system (seeing how all magic items available for trade and looting were crafted by someone) and play a major role in all campaign settings.

I don't find crafting in general to be questionably believable. I find bulk crafting in the order you're suggesting to be questionably believable. A wizard who makes sure they have scrolls is normal.

The way I was reading your suggestion was something like a wizard outfitting the entire party with rings of invisibility. If that were the only such provision made, it would cost about 1/2 a level for a 9th level wizard. If they do other crafting on a similar scale, they stand to loose a couple of levels.


In fact, crafting magic items in the D&D fantasy worlds is equivalent to modern industry – i.e. it’s a backbone of society and an indispensable element of power. Dismissing it as “questionably believable” shows that you’ve simply never encountered a player who actually made use of crafting, and never bothered to calculate the crafting mechanic's actual game effect.

Actually, if you examine magic item market with an eye towards economics, the system appears degenerate. In terms of total economic output, it just doesn't work out unless you make certain extraordinary presumptions. The simplest ones are things like intermittent markets (extremely low supply that is not always available to meet demand) or an extreme wealth gap within humanoid societies (far in excess of even the most pronounced examples from human history).


Scribe scroll is all a Wizard needs to greatly increase his power and wealth. And at early levels (such as 5th, the first bonus feat level for Wizard) metamagic feats are useless, while crafting feats are immensely useful.
Yes, but how many scrolls is it reasonable to cart around? To make? This clearly isn't an issue in OotS-world, where magic item shops and bag of holding aren't hard to find. But those aren't presumptions basic to D&D: there is a reason that magical item descriptions are in the DMG rather than the PHB.


OoTS is a pretty magic-intensive world, and its casters are not afraid to craft (except the dumb ones like V). Your point being?

I don't recall seeing any non-epic casters craft anything at all, with the exception of the couple running the potion shop. Am I forgetting something?

And I've actually found the magic levels of the setting to be quite bipolar. If I were to characterize it, I would say that it is rich in low level magic, but with high level magic present at average levels at best.


The same in Forgotten Realms, Eberron etc. You’ve read the FRCS, PGTF, UE, SS, Waterdeep, Power of Faerun – right? So you’ve noticed that the armies and garrisons are indeed, quantitatively speaking, mostly composed of 1st level fighters and warriors. But there are also some higher-level characters such as warmages and battle clerics, and it’s the same in OoTS – the Azurites had entire units of paladins, clerics, and wizards (such as the diviner circle), and so did Team Evil (the numerous hobo clerics and wizards we’ve encountered).

You are correct. My point was inherently flawed. But consider the fact that FR is a setting where there are actual functioning magocracies: this, to me, implies a higher power level setting than OotS. I haven't bothered to examine the setting in more than passing in years, but if I recall, the majority of the population of Halruaa has some magical ability. That speaks volumes.


How is that relevant? The character level mattered with regard to receiving XP from low-CR creatures - a 20th level wizard would get zero for that cat. So what's the point of your remark?

It was a (poorly executed) note that the multiplicative nature of the item creation cost scheme makes cost increase in a significantly more than linear fashion, to such an extent that it slightly outpaces XP growth per encounter if you always craft at highest caster level and always have XP awarded for an EL equal to your party level. I probably should have just said so.


1. No one claimed that he DID NOTHING ELSE, right? In fact I specifically noted that, for instance, by using a Quill of Scribing the Wizard loses NO TIME AT ALL to crafting magic items.

You actually confused me when you mentioned this in an earlier post, so when you mentioned it again, I looked it up. I'm assuming you're talking about the item from Complete Mage?

I had been remembering a 2nd edition item of the same name (I think from Tome of Magic, but most of 2nd is in storage, so I can't check right now). It reduced cost but didn't effect time needed. Needless to say, a very different item.


2. Pumping out magic items for profit is both much safer and much more profitable than risking your fragile body in dungeons fighting monsters. At the early levels, when the wizard is very vulnerable, crafting is very much preferable. At later levels it’s still an indispensable source of income and added power.

3. Why would it not be “available”? You’ve got the feats, the money, the XP – what’s to stop you from crafting?

I should have been significantly more clear. I was actually referring to NPC crafters and the presumption that every magic item is always available merely because they have an entry for average market price. Which in turn, dictated how great the resources Elven Command can give them are. (Mind you, they should be getting some significant resources for this kind of mission. That I don't dispute.)

Price can remain relatively stable even for a very supply poor market if there are (mundane) substitute goods that accomplish the main use (even if less efficiently or conveniently) for the bulk of potential buyers.

From a different perspective: there is a reason the magic item lists are in the DMG rather than the PHB.


Unintended use? Did I get that right? You mean gaining XP by killing creatures from the Monster Manual is an unintended use of the system?

Sure, I know what you’re thinking: “He makes it sound so easy, I can’t allow something as simple and efficient in my game. My other players would rebel”. Well, the job of a good DM is not to break rules in order to make some players happy at the expense of other players. The job of a good DM is to try and make everyone happy while staying within the rules.

Your first reaction to my suggestion was “Ban it because it looks too simple and efficient”. Had you actually put some thought into the situation, you would have noticed some important undertones.

First, have you even checked the common cat’s stats in the Monster Manual? It might seem like a harmless fluffy creature, but it's got a +4 attack bonus (like a 1st level fighter with 16 STR), 14 AC (same fighter wearing scale mail), 30ft speed, and a +16 Hide and +8 Move Silently bonus. For a Wizard with only 2 hitpoints, -3 to melee attack, AC 11 (15 with Mage Armor) and banned Evocation, catching and killing that cat mano-a-mano could be a not-so-easy task.

My objection is primarily based on the absurd way in which the MM portrays a common house cat. They can easily pose a threat to a lvl 1 commoner: an indication that they lie on a particularly poorly designed part of the rules layout (as does the commoner).


So, when I played my Wizard, I usually had my hirelings kill the critters first, or at least restrain them. That way I still get the XP (hirelings don’t take away XP like party members, as per DMG) without the risk.

How’s that different from a 1st level party of four killing a single goblin with a CR of 1/2? The challenge is little, and so is the XP award (after all, you need 1,000 to even get to 2nd level). But even these meager chunks of XP are plenty enough for the wizard to scribe a goodish amount of scrolls.

If you had your hirelings do it entirely, I wouldn't generally say you were involved enough in the encounter to warrant XP.

Moreover, you were talking about buying a cat and gutting it. This would imply that the cat was already restrained: after all, you purchased it and took it somewhere to be gutted-- there's no necessity for allowing it to be unrestrained. If all you would have to do is essentially Coup de Grace the cat, then I would say that the cat was already defeated and you were filling the role of executioner.

Now, assuming that you can use the MM cat entry with a straight face and if the cat is free to evade and (goodness, I hate that MM entry with a passion) fight back, yes I would award XP. I would also have the townsfolk consider you very strange and limit their willingness to do business with you, particularly in cats.


And that's your core misunderstanding of the class. See, wizards are among other things, weapons production programs. In fact, no one but wizards can actually produce upon the basis of their research. Moreover, they're the weapons' end users - and again, no one else can use their research to fullest potential.

Your description of wizards as “academics” ignores the fact that they’re the Research & Development, the production, the delivery, and the end battlefield user – all rolled into one. They’re Oppenheimer, and the factory, and the bomb, and the bomber (and the recon, and many other things). So calling them merely “academics” does not reflect their nature – any more than “big metal cylinder” reflects the nature of a nuclear ICBM.

Again, I should have been significantly more clear. That isn't targeted at a specific PC (or notable NPC) wizard, but rather a question of how great the resources an organization like eleven command could supply the strike team with. Thats why I noted the fact that an isolated example wasn't inherently contradictory.

Can they provide the party with a few scrolls? A few Dozen? A ring of invisibility of cloak of displacement each?

The answers to these questions will depend on the number of wizards or other magic item crafters (and their level) relative to the total population. From there we have to look at the output of such a crafter relative to rate of use.

Upon further examination, in OotS, this would seem less of an issue. Even though the setting seems low level, there seems to be an unusual plethora of people with PC levels. This would indicate that casters, and thus the crafting casters, are not as rare as a world with more standard demographic makeups.


It’s not “my proposed system”. You, who claims to have read all the 3.5 WotC material, ought to know that magic item crafting has long been incorporated into D&D economy. DMG II, FRCS, PGtF, Power of Faerun all have particular mechanical insight into how such an economy would work. There are specific guilds, organizations, and entire countries devoted to crafting magic items on an industrial scale. It’s extremely pronounced in Forgotten Realms and Eberron, the two most developed 3.5 WoTC settings.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong sections, all that DMG II did relative to this was provide a work-up on a guild based economic system and possible example guilds for use. They include encourage you to pick and alter those suited to your campaign world.

As to the others you mentioned, those are all setting specific. The setting are indeed very popular (I've never been certain why, I've never been a fan of published settings), and thus may shape the impressions of a great many players. But they are none the less specific to those campaign worlds, and heavily dependent on the interrelation between the economy and magic presented therein, and more generally how common magic is.


Apart from setting-specific situations, the D&D system offers a great number of feats, abilities, items, and even entire classes which revolve around crafting magic items.

Finally, gamers have developed extensive, comprehensive methods and strategies for utilizing these factors to the best advantage of their characters.

First, there is core and there is everything but core. I would never presume that someone who is DMing for me would necessarily allow anything outside of the big 3, I wouldn't presume they would include every item in the DMG, and I wouldn't object if they excluded even a base character class from the PHB for setting reasons.

Those 3 books provide us with a much more limited picture of item creation.

And as to optimization, I find it objectionable enough that I won't continue to play at a table where its a large element of the game. The base rules were, in my opinion, not designed to be put under such scrutiny. It stretches the rules to points just short of breaking and often unravels the believability of the role-playing world. I know my position on that is not necessarily one you share, but the OotS world seems to operate with at least a measure of the same outlook: we don't see optimized characters in the comic world.


In light of the above, saying that continuous crafting is “questionably believable” goes against the objective reality of D&D.

I didn't mean to imply that it was questionably believable that players did it, nor that there aren't rules to support it (particularly in supplements). But the strain of disbelief which it puts on the continued operation of a campaign world and the societies therein is hard to overcome if this is happening as more than an isolated example.

How would such a system look after 100 years? 500? 5000? Its certainly possible to create a campaign setting which properly redresses the issues that it brings up (for all my dislike of the setting, FR is admittedly well crafted). But such a world would, much like FRealms, would have the economies and societies distinctly shaped in ways that, to my eye at least, don't seem to exist either in OotS or the default Greyhawk based setting.


I like Dragonlance, and Soulforge was a decent book (am currently in wait for the Dragons of the Hourglass Mage); but I think you’ll agree that magic mechanics is not the strong point of Tracey/Hickman as writers. I’ve almost cried when I read the stats for the two Black Moon high mages at the end of Dragon Disciple I. These guys hardly ever cast any spells, were walking around filthy & barefooted, with MOPS to clear up dirt in Nuitari’s precious tower. Their method of choice when tasked to kill a high-level character (Minna, the former chief cleric of Takhisis) was to try and cut her with a dagger.
Mina was immune to magical spells she was aware of being cast at her. The wizards you are referring to were directly serving a deity who had expressed a distaste for magic being squandered on mundane tasks.


They were also quite stupid and petty. I.e. projected the impression of 1st level apprentice wizards, at best (and with pretty low mental stats). Yet according to the stats, they were like 15th level Wizards, in possession of genius-level intelligence and choke-full of dangerous & useful spells – i.e. basically demigods by D&D standards. Even compared to V, one of the least effectual Wizards I’ve seen, they were worthless.
They never struck me as stupid, just unwise. And I did wince a little at their wisdom scores given as a result.


Your example of a Black Moon wizardess spending her years as a backwards town’s rat exterminator is another example of how Dragonlance writers often have little clue of the nature & power of magic in D&D.

The mage in question was well paid and well respected. She was a noteworthy member of her order. She was selfish and underhanded and still managed to live as a respected member of a society that knew her profession and her inclination to evil. She lived a very comfortable life as a result of her magic. Except for the fact that she overreached and got burned, how is this not a life that would constitute a lucrative reason to become a wizard? How is it not a lucrative goal for someone who is already one but has no extreme lust for power?


Compared to Dragonlance, I’d say OoTS is far more normal magic-wise (which is logical seeing how it’s written by a person who actually played D&D). Most of the times, characters at least remember to use their magical abilities, and sometimes they even do it quite efficiently (Xykon at least seems more or less adequate in this respect).

First:
Not only have Weis and Hickman played D&D, but the first 3 books are actually based on their test sittings of the Dragonlance Adventure Modules they were designing for TSR at the time.

Second:
At one point, we have an actual question as to if there is a cleric of a high enough level to cast Resurrection (or was it True Resurrection? I can't remember). We certainly have a plethora of low level magic available, but the rate at which we encounter exceptionally high level characters, much less casters, seems significantly lower than the novels taking place in the Realms.


By power I don’t necessarily mean political power for which you have to “grab”. No, I’m talking character power here – i.e. his capacity to project his will and get what he wants. The exact goals may vary (from world peace to world domination to saving the squirrels) but power is more or less universal. See Xykon’s speech on power – he put it quite eloquently.

There may certainly be complacent characters not interested in further power growth. But as a DM, you can trust your players not to play such characters. After all, gaining XP, levels, abilities & items is the core mechanic of D&D, and the vast majority of players would be interested in making their characters more powerful (in addition to other fun factors such as roleplaying).

Oh, I'm not suggesting that one would regularly see a player character not interested in the acquisition of power. But player characters are the extreme exception rather than the rule. I would expect for a greater portion of fighters in the world to be drill sergeants for the local army/militia rather than adventurers. I would expect relatively few to be sellswords.

I would expect similar distribution along wizards: I don't expect most of them to be adventurers or active military. I would expect most to be in the business of providing protective spells for nobles or advising rulers on magical issues. I wouldn't expect them to have a steady stream of XP or be any more motivated by extreme acquisition of wealth or power than the average shopkeeper (though because of their means and intelligence, perhaps more adept at securing it).

This position, however, is questionable in the OotS world, where most character seem to operate to some degree like PCs.


That’s where the experience is a river concept comes into play. It’s surprising that in your years as DM your players never realized that crafting magic items => profit => more wealth => more power at lower nominal character level => more XP from encounters => more magic items => more wealth => more power etc. is quite a victory loop. If you’re really interested in this, I suggest looking over the excellent studies published at the Wizards Community forums.

I generally avoid playing with people who optimize, and I also tend to use low magic settings with very limited magic item lists. But, for the sake of argument, lets say I'm running a high magic, munchkin-friendly campaign. I generally have several outcomes mapped out for how the players choose to interact with the current conflict: they can help the good guys, they can help the bad guys, they can try to play both sides, or they can ignore it and try to make sure they're safe when the conflict ends. For the first three, their success or failure in their specific mission in the conflict will generally affect the success or failure of their side in general.

If you can make their specific mission time sensitive, then delaying to make sure they have the ideal magic items available is usually sufficient to meet a failure condition. If, in contrast, they have those items in spades before hand, the encounters can be re-tailored to make sure they are appropriately difficult: EL-6 is definitionally an appropriate challenge for a party of level 6 characters. If things listed at EL-6 are routinely too weak to provide such a challenge, then I'll generally be treating all encounters as under a circumstance adjustment.

The players are still optimizing, and revision of enemies allows you to still keep them challenged, but they're not receiving inordinate progression as a result.


Once again, your analogy with academics falls flat, because D&D wizards are the scientists, and the military, and the military-industrial complex, all unto themselves. So they task themselves with research, fund themselves, conduct the research, build the product, use it on the battlefield, and collect the spoils to fund future projects. Closed production loop.

Wizards are the military? You presume all wizards in a game world are willing and skilled combatants?

I do not. Particularly if they are in a civilized and secure nation, I presume that many may take take little or effort to learn combat spells at all- perhaps merely enough to defend themselves against the thugs in the bad part of town or scare off some highway bandits.

I do presume that the military and rulers will go to some effort to make themselves a lucrative carrier choice for wizards, and that they will have them on staff in some number. But player classes are rare, and wizards are only one of those classes: the military is getting a portion of a small number.


{...}Regional Benefits (such as those found in FRCS/PGtF) make it even better.
{...}
As to patronage, well waddya know, WoTC has LONG AGO DEVELOPED IT in the MOST BASIC RULEBOOKS such as, again, the FRCS, PGtF, PoF, and more recently Player’s Handbook II and Dungeon Master’s Guide II.

I wouldn't consider anything you listed there to be a basic rulebook. I consider them supplements, which may be adopted in part or whole, at the discretion of the DM, as appropriate for the setting.


Again, you have a completely lopsided concept of magic users. You fail to take into account that they, themselves, are the ones putting their inventions to use, and that none of these inventions are abstract or not useful, on the contrary, they possess great amazing power and can generate great amazing profit.

And again, you are presuming every magic user is an adventurer. I can see a player doing this (or, just as easily, deciding not to). Not every wizard has a player's motivations: again, I'm assuming most have similar base motivations to a shopkeep. We may never hear of those ones, but I'm assuming that they are the majority.


Skill specialization? Do you actually mean burning a feat to get a +3 skill bonus? Please, that's ridiculous even for OoTS 8=)

Yes, I do it quite often. I have a fighter whose father was a tailor, and who was trained as such until they had a falling out. When his father died, he started refocusing on his tailoring out of guilt (i.e. when he spent his free time sewing when not adventuring): I expressed this through a skill specialization. In Craft.

Story motivation matters to some of us.


Since he’s an NPC, wouldn’t we have to presume the elite array

First, there's nothing that says you can't roll out or point buy an NPC. The Elite array is provided for when you don't feel the character is important enough to do so. I have a folder of about 600 rolled NPCs I use instead-- just fill in the name.

Second, this is OotS-verse: PC can mean main character and there are NPC classes, but the difference seems to be primarily a matter of plot importance since we know that no-one here is actually playing the characters.


No, it wouldn’t. First, because for a Wizard with T-n and Illusion banned taking space in covert infiltration teams is not a reasonable choice in the first place.
And if the rest of his adventuring party (gathered perhaps in Roy's manner and only later employed by elven command) routinely insists on stealth as part of their operations?


Second, should he really want initiative, there are spells and items that would give bonuses, and there are so many better feats than Imp. In. Third, he can just get his minions to launch the first strike (skeletons, for instance, get +2 DEX and Improved Iniative for free).

There are better feats if you allow all supplements, yes. In that case, choose the best one. I generally don't allow feats that are just more powerful, no downside versions of feats in core.


So he could just let his fellow Stealthy Wizard copy the spell, right?

Why would he want to if it means his adventuring party gets the job instead? Or if not revealing it in advance means he gets to pick the missions that will make him more likely for promotion.


Spell Focus: Abjuration? Oh, come on 8=) First, nondetection spells don’t use DCs so wasting a feat would be pointless. Second, the best way to combat many sensors is be invisible (fools Clairvoyance, for instance, and anyone using other scrying spells who doesn't have See Invisibility on).

You're the one assuming a magical arms race here. If someone using scrying in such extremes would have some incentive to find a way past Nondetection (and perhaps even Sequester). If that exists, then there should be a spell that counters that spell. I would expect a DC somewhere down that line: its a useful mechanic and makes a convenient way of balancing the spells that come out of original research.


Divination cannot be banned so any Wizard would have access to Divination spells, regardless of his specialization. As to actual number of spells available for use, again I emphasize that the Wizard’s “spells per day” limit is rendered obsolete by magic items.

Access to a school isn't the same as exceptional proficiency. Perhaps he's a carry over from 3rd to 3.5 has ranks in scry. Perhaps he has devoted a fair amount of original research to specific divination spells useful in guerilla warfare. You can make any school particularly useful with proper focus and investment.


You mean the elven nation didn't have an infiltration team that could use Invisibility or Fly? That would be both pathetic and unprofessional, so only proves my point.

Or perhaps they have several and they're all deployed. They may want to have a team in place as soon as possible. If the best people are already deployed, you deploy the next best and so on.


Really, any team with a 9th level Wizard and “covert infiltration” on the list of their possible missions ought to have access to Invisibility and Fly. Hell, ANY Wizard ought to have access to Invisibility and Fly. And if they don’t, Command ought to have given them use-activated or continuous items of these spells.

Again, you're putting a very high standard on qualifying as a professional. And one that seems inappropriate for a presumed medieval setting.


Like I said, it’s a possibility. Bottom line is, we have not one, but two potential sources of Illusion or Transmutation spells (not counting magic items). And neither of them did the job. Unprofessional.

I really wouldn't count the cleric against even modern levels of military professionalism unless I knew whether or not the elven military had access to any trusted elven clerics with those domains as a possibility.


Apart from the fact that it seemed to be rather less cool and more pointless risk in my eyes, I’m not arguing about the authour’s intentions here (unknowable as they may be). I’m simply arguing against the idea that the Peregrines behaved professionally.

My impression was that we were certainly intended to believe that they were doing so.


Her information is, self-admittedly, very dated. And we know that Team Evil’s constantly fielding something new, be it monsters, items, spells, or tactics.

Yes, it is. But that doesn't mean that its reasonable to assume that they're now using every tactic imaginable. It means we expect some weakness in their system to be plugged: not that they will have developed completely new and wide ranging avenues of strength.


He’s currently tied to the city due to the phylactery being lost somewhere in the sewers. Therefore, he’s liable to treat the elven attack very personally. So why risk it?

Again, this presupposes that either his general detection capacity is greatly increased over what we have witnessed or that he has an inclination to try to detect them in particular. They should be wearing cloaks and hoods (which was a good point you made), but that should be sufficient given our known information about the city.

Yes, invisibility is better. Best would be silenced, invisible, and polymorphed into a fine-sized flying insect to evade anyone using see invisibility but not true seeing (I would suggest moving on the ethereal plane by some means to, but I think cloister blocked that IIRC).

Professional doesn't have to mean best there is


He’s bound to re-evaluate this position once he hears about a group of elite elven infiltrators penetrating his domain. It would be obvious V’s not alone in this. Such a level of danger, combined with his previous frustration, would cause Xykon to go all out on the Peregrines. Why risk it?

Once again, you're assuming he hears about it.


How would establishing decent perimeter monitoring be a danger to the Plan? I doubt that Xykon would’ve objected even if he knew – seeing as how he was even willing to spend lots of gold on the glyphs.

It would be a danger to the Plan because he needs Xykon's cooperation and aid. And I do think Xykon would object to the effort and expenditure of HIS magical resources on magically monitoring the perimeter of a city he cares nothing about as more than a convenient place to hang while Redcloak tortures some paladin.

And like I said earlier, protecting his lair in a city does not mean that he's interested in protecting the city as a whole.


Already covered above, but here's the repeat: Xykon has obviously been not interested in personally pursuing the resistance. Now, however, the situation’s different: he’s very pissed, he’s lacking the phylactery, so he’s liable to treat any intrusion as a threat to his personal safety, and deal with it using overwhelming force. Why risk it?

This is a valid point: V and O'Chul attack likely lowered the requirements of what will compel him to action. However the elves have the explicit goal of meeting up with the Resistance: if he does decide to attack every non-evil thing that moves, then they could at best delay that for this phase of their mission.


I mean: rebuilt and possibly strengthened fortress, under the control of an epic caster (do the elves even have one of those?), with two high-level minions, overwhelming numbers of low level mooks, including many casters, and an unknown quantity of created undead & crafted magic items. Oh, and don't forget - protected by [I]the most powerful abjuration ever created.

The numbers of undead and magic items (at least those that are available to the average troops) are unknown to us in a very different way than they are unknown to the elves. Haley was there for several months, and thus should know not only numbers for that period, but also growth rate for that period. The elves have a reasonable idea to extrapolate from: we do not.

And the superior numbers of low level hobgoblins are only a concern in if directly confronted in such numbers: as long as they are deployed in patrols they are of limited concern.

I count a mere handful of characters Peregrine needs to be concerned about because they would be realistically unable to evade or dispatch them.



Lastly, since you seem to have a fondness for bold, I'll respond in kind:

Why risk it?Because the very structure of D&D, especially relative to casters, is based on limited resources. HP is limited. Skills are limited. Feats are limited. Spells per day are limited.

In this case, it's reasonable to assume that there are also limits on the elven party and Elven Command. And its unclear what those limits are.

The game is about overcoming these limits. But there is a difference between overcoming them and making them so trivial that they can be ignored. I don't deny that there are any number of rules that when interpreted strictly and in combination can make those limits trivial.

But down that path, you're seeking to beat the game rather than play it. And for me at least, that's not what D&D is about.

[danelsan]

crafting magic items => profit => more wealth => more power at lower nominal character level => more XP from encounters => more magic items => more wealth => more power
Taking into account "modifying XP awards and encounter levels" in the DMG's page 39, I'd say that a party with much more wealth than expected for their level, specially if dedicated to useful magical items that makes the challenges easier, should not receive full XP for an encounter, despite their "nominal character level".

CRs should exist as a guideline for how challenging a monster is. If you are a level 4 wizard that for some plot reason can use a magic item that casts summon monster IX once per encounter, there is no way in hell you'll have the same challenge from a CR 4 monster as if you didn't had such a magic item.

I guess what I means is: yes, having much more power than you level indicates does allow you to fight harder monsters, but the GM should really consider all this extra power to give you party a higher effective level.

Now, apart from this, I agree that, if we are going to see this group with a gamer's tactical lens instead of the humorous comic where no one is that tactically effective and the author seems to make a point of having so many character be terribly built, then yes, these elves are vastly incompetent

[Kami2awa]

Just a small point, but Invisibility + Silence is a really bad idea for a group:

Leader: We go that way.
Everyone else: Which way do we go?
Leader: Are you following me or not?
Everyone else: Anyone there?
Leader: Are you even here any more?
Everyone else: When are we getting some instructions?

Repeat until everyone is separated and lost.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Just a small point, but Invisibility + Silence is a really bad idea for a group:


That's why everyone grabs onto each other's shoulders like a conga line.

[Teddy]

What I can't understand is why some persons here find a D&D-world brimfull with magic (and money) is what should be held as the norm, and anything lower than that is horrifically underpowered.

Take the rapid wealth growth suggested by Undead Prince. It requires that there is allways someone willing and capable to buy every scroll you scribe, every potion you brew and every magic footwear you craft. Even in a large city, there should be a very limited amount of customers. Why? See:

Commoners are common, but not at all wealthy. The DMG states that 1sp is the usuall daily income for a commoner, and it's also the cost for the simple lives they live. A commoner shouldn't have more than a few gold pieces saved for emergencies or major happenings.

Experts make their living of crafting the more or less mundane objects that the community need, or serve as professionals in other professions. Since they often deal with a wealthier market (other experts, nobels, military organisations, occational adventurers), they do tend to be wealthier themselves (this generaly doesn't apply to the village blacksmith, but in a larger city). However, since expert usually doesn't grow their own food do they need to buy more of it, and people with more money tend to buy themselves a little better, so they shouldn't have extraordinary sums of spare gold. If a expert buys a magic item, he will make sure that it will do him good for a long time. A magic alarm to protect his shop from burglars at night, perhaps, but almost never scrolls and potions, since they are far to expensive for the avarage expert.

Nobles are the only ones that actually got the funds to buy more than a single low-level item. Note that this won't make them buy things they don't expect either is of valuable use (like protective amulets that wards them from poison, magic armor and weapons if they expect to find them selves in the front line of a battle (or just for show), potions of healing that might come in handy if he gets injured, and remove disease to keep the family healty. They may also buy magic items just to show of, but they will probably only look expensive without any practical use.

Military organisations (anything more organized than the village militia) may invest in some magic weapons and armor and an occational healing potion for their commanders, but the common soldiers will probably never get their hands on any magic items for them selves.

Mercenary bands and special units (these contain most of the combat oriented persons with PC-classes, like fighters and rangers) might be looking for magic items of more combat value, but since they are a part of the least stationary group of a comunity, they are hard to rely on as regular customers and items created with this group in mind might lie collecting dust for months before someone interested show up. Since these groups usually aren't adventurers that raid dungeons and collect thousends of gold pieces in enormous piles, they usually won't be armed as those. They might be well payed, but noone will pay them more than they are capable to fight, and noone will pay them if funds are missing. They will be well armed, but not at a PC-level.

Of the other inhabitants of a city with PC-classes are the majority capable of crafting the magic items they need (clerics, druids, other wizards, sorcerers). They may of course visit one other to buy items they need but can make themselves, but this is nothing to count upon (like the blacksmith buying tools from the other blacksmith). Among the rouges are there only the most skillfull (or those in the top of an eventual guild) that got the money to buy themselves a magic item or two, and they'll probably prefere to steal them if they see that as realisticly. It's also rather stupid to sell a magic item to a rogue if you know that he/she is a rogue, because that will only make it easier for him/her to break into your laboratory later, and in case he/she gets captured is there a risk that someone recognises your work,and then you are in trouble.

The conclusion is that in any rational economy, mass production of magic items will only work in small scale in a rich comunity. In the same way, only those who 1. got the money, 2. got the use for and 3. got the source of specific magic items will posess these. I guess that Elven Command just aren't capable of posessing hundreds and hundreds of scrolls, wands, rings, potions and the like, and are even more less willing to throw them away on one team. It just sounds natural.

[Kami2awa]

That's why everyone grabs onto each other's shoulders like a conga line.

Until they have to fight, climb or do anything that requires them separating.

[Ozymandias9]

Until they have to fight, climb or do anything that requires them separating.

The fighting would dispel unimproved invisibility, so hand holding or rope binding would work for most purposes. But if we're already assuming this degree of magical obfuscation, they could just dump see invisibility on top of it and be done.

[Hurkyl]

they could just dump see invisibility on top of it and be done.
Except that (I believe) the OOTS world seems to be lacking that spell....

[Zanaril]

Except that (I believe) the OOTS world seems to be lacking that spell....

V disagrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)

[Hurkyl]

V disagrees. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html)
Ah, excellent! I had been wondering about that for days, and couldn't recall it ever being used!