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horngeek
2009-07-28, 03:47 AM
This is inspired by the "why don't Wizards run things?" thread, due to similar characteristics of Wizards and Dragons. i.e. both cast spells, both are usually smart...

So, in you campaigns, why don't Dragons (of any kind) rule the world (or if they do, why?)?

Possible reasons:

A) There simply enough Dragons
B) There'd be too much infighting. If Chromatics try to take over, Metallics stop them.
C) In this world, Dragons aren't intelligent.
D) The chromatics aren't interested, the metallics are too Good to opress.
E) Some kindoms actually are ruled by Dragons.

Any other reasons?

Starscream
2009-07-28, 03:58 AM
I always imagined it was for the same reason the devils/demons don't run things. Too much fighting.

If the chromatics tried to take over, the metallics would stop them. And vice versa.

Then again, they might not be interested. Give a dragon a big pile of treasure to lie on and he's pretty much happy. Who cares what a bunch of brief-lived monkeys do?

mistformsquirrl
2009-07-28, 04:09 AM
Several reasons as I see it.

First - default world reasons:

1) - Dragons in general are kinda lazy. The older they get, the less they seem to do; (with occasional exceptions. But if you read the descriptions in the Draconomican, most dragons who are powerful enough pretty much just sit around collecting 'stuff')

2) - Those that are interested and powerful enough may very well do so; you just wouldn't know they're a dragon; or running the world. (When your Int is as high as a Wyrm's; it becomes entirely feasible to play the world like a fiddle; assuming you can get the drop on the few other creatures attempting the same.)

My World reasons:

Very VERY few dragons in existence. They're also nigh immortal (don't age, most weapons can't harm them, etc..) - However like a few other extremely powerful but rare races - they realize that if they started exercising that power in a big way, they'd be putting crosshairs on themselves.

That is - though they're almost immortal, they aren't; and someone will figure out your weakness if you give them a reason to try. Why give them that reason?

I should add, dragons are pretty much gods in this world - they exist on the mortal plane and all; but they're so much above everything and everyone (in their own opinion and in general power level) that it takes a great deal to really draw their attention. Doing so is generally something you don't want to do >.<

The other factor is that dragons just flat out tend to be jealous - if one started conquering the planet, others would do so as well. Given that dragons can most definitely harm each other... well you wind up back at "Nigh Immortal" - why risk yourself for (to a dragon) limited gain when you literally have... forever.

Course that said it's not that none have ever tried...

raitalin
2009-07-28, 04:18 AM
I'm partial to the "They just can't be bothered with it" approach. You can sit in your lair with your pile of treasure, fat and happy on the local peasantry's cattle, why bother mucking that up with politics and responsibilities? The most you need from the lesser races is for them to bring food to your door in the form of livestock, maidens and adventurers.

Yora
2009-07-28, 04:21 AM
With some monney, a human could easily own hundreds or thousands of rats. But practicaly no one wants to.
Some people own some thousands of chicken and run their own farm, but they are very few. But if you want to, every human could do that.

And I guess most dragons are simply not at all interested in running a kingdom or even a city of 10.000 humans.

peacenlove
2009-07-28, 04:21 AM
There would be another reason why dragons don't rule. It would draw attention to them, their lairs and their treasure. They are strong and intelligent enough anyway to take what they want fast and safe, ruling a kindom would be inconvenient and take much of their time (which is occupied by counting their treasure and devising new means and plans to increase it :smallbiggrin: )
Another one would be that dragons, when they grow in power, leave the material plane in order to gain more knowledge (that can't be gained on the Mortal Coil), influence (Imagine a dragon general of the blood war :smallsmile:) and most importantly riches. (not only money but other forms of currency, after all they lust for ANY kind of treasure)

horngeek
2009-07-28, 04:26 AM
In my opinion, it depends on the Dragon. For example, in the Draconomicon it says that Gold Dragons do have a tendency to drop in on a villian and destroy him. If one did that to someone who was taking over a kingdom, the people might well want the Dragon to rule them. If there was no one qualified, it might well agree, at least in a caretaker role. In this case, it would probably be commone knowledge that a Dragon was ruling the country.

For Chromatic Dragons, the justification of them wanting to rule somthing (even if only a small kingdom) is more a matter of power than anything else. Of course, the majority of Dragons simply couldn't be bothered, yes. But some would.

For Metallic dragons, the primary problem isn't actually a "can't be bothered" but more a matter of "we think too differently". I mean, a Gold has four thousand years before it even has to worry about the Twilight. Humans? They're lucky if they live more than a century. So, yes, you might see some Dragon rulers, but they'd be rare.

Melamoto
2009-07-28, 04:37 AM
With some monney, a human could easily own hundreds or thousands of rats.

Actually, that would be pretty badass. A Rat Master who uses his vast armies to conquer cities and even nations. That gives me an idea...
*Slaps himself* Bad Melamoto! Stay on topic!

I think it probably isn't too rare that Dragons DO run things, except they are either Alternate Form users, or a secret power behind the throne. After all, there are enough Dragon Slayers for any Dragon in an obvious seat of power to be taken down quite quickly.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 04:37 AM
I would actually see a minority of chromatics ruling city-states or nations, though this would be moderated by in-fighting and resistance from metallics keeping them in check. Still, you could easily envision an entire nation of draconic overlords with half-dragon and dragon-blooded descendents acting as the day-to-day rulers and aristocracy of the population.

Metallics would recognize that humans need self-determination and that they can't properly govern (due to temperament and psychology), only dominate and rule, which isn't their thing. I'd see metallics more often in a patronage role than actual rulership - not part of the hierarchy of any nation, but powers in their own rights with alliances and pacts with their neighbours. People might venerate them as if they were spirits of place or small gods; leaving out offerings of food and goods, though generally not intruding on the dragon's territory. They might be called upon to mediate disputes or witness treaties. They could have honourary seats on all sorts of councils, for which they would almost never show up.

mcv
2009-07-28, 05:05 AM
In Earthdawn, dragons do run things. I mean, they don't run human kingdoms -- that'd be like a human running an anthill -- but they run their own afairs on a scale so big humans can't see it. And if humans interfere with dragon plans, they pay for it.

Also, there's a lot of rivalry between dragons.

If your world has weaker, wizard-level dragons, then maybe the reason neither of them runs things is because of dragon-wizard rivalry, and because politicians manage to play one agains the other. Or neither really cares about mere worldly power.

AslanCross
2009-07-28, 05:05 AM
In Dragons of Eberron, there's a a sidebar that actually discusses this question: Why don't dragons solve all the world's problems?

(For context: Eberron has an entire continent run by an epic dragon civilization.)

Answer: You don't want them to. The last time they saved the world from imminent collapse, they incinerated a continent-wide empire of giants ruled by titans by using epic magic.

They don't have much of an idea of scale. If something threatens them enough to act, they will burn it to the ground, salt the earth under its remains, and then use epic magic to cause magnitude 9.9 earthquakes to sink the earth beneath the sea.

That's the primary hook I'm using in my Eberron run of Red Hand of Doom. The bad guys are going to ultimately try to resurrect Tiamat, whom the dragons have imprisoned in the most heavily-fortified location on the entire planet.

Tiamat in Eberron is not a lesser deity. She's an incredibly powerful demon overlord who has power to corrupt ALL dragonkind (including metallic dragons, though chromatics are more susceptible to her sway---Eberron's dragons are free to be of any alignment). Her prison is so well-guarded that the dragons who volunteer to guard it only do so in shifts, and when their shift ends they're expected to honorably accept execution---Tiamat's mere proximity is enough to corrupt some dragons, so the dragon authorities don't take chances with wyrms who guard the Pit of Five Sorrows.

If Tiamat manages to get revived, the dragons will not be happy.

So I tell the PCs that if they fail, all of the dragons of Argonnessen, the nation of dragons, will wing their way to Khorvaire (the continent where the adventure is set) and burn everything to the ground.

A lot of the dragons have epic levels.

There are over 50,000 dragons on Argonnessen.

Do the math.

TL;DR---Draconic measures are so drastic that the PCs should be glad that saving the world is in their hands.

Fishy
2009-07-28, 05:11 AM
Imagine you're a Dragon living on earth in 1909. You've got a giant bushel of gold, but for whatever reason you decide to convert it into a 'local' currency before you settle down for a 100 year nap.

Is there anywhere on earth where that money would be worth anything today? How would you choose?

Dragons who get involved in human economics are the equivalent of day-traders. There's profit to be made, but one civil war and you're out a massive chunk of change.

Eldan
2009-07-28, 05:12 AM
I do something like the lazyness idea, on a grander scale: I haven't read the draconomicon in a while, but at least when it came up in my world I did it like this:

Dragons never die. Instead, as they age, they become ever larger. But the larger they get, the more their metabolisms slow down, until, eventually, the super colossal megabeasts just lay still somewhere outside, because their caves no longer fit them. Over time, sand piles up on them, weather washes over them, plants grow on them. They become landscape features. Hills, mountain ranges and so on, are often sleeping dragons with scales so hard, they don't notice anything.
Dwarves know this and carefully make sure to dig around any of the castle-sized armor plates they find buried deep beneath the roots of the oldest mountains.

This is actually stolen from a legend I read once, where sleeping dragons became dragon trees. (Don't know if that's the english name, but they were called that. You can go and have a look at these trees, even. They are impressive)

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 05:20 AM
Imagine you're a Dragon living on earth in 1909. You've got a giant bushel of gold, but for whatever reason you decide to convert it into a 'local' currency before you settle down for a 100 year nap.

Is there anywhere on earth where that money would be worth anything today? How would you choose?

Dragons who get involved in human economics are the equivalent of day-traders. There's profit to be made, but one civil war and you're out a massive chunk of change.

That analogy breaks down on two fronts.

A) Why would the dragon convert their wealth into anything that isn't inherently valuable? Huge piles of precious metals, gems, and magic items might become easier or harder to sell, more or less valuable, over time but they're not going to become simply worthless as if the bank or government backing a currency had disappeared.

B) Dragons have immense personal power - they're giant flying ominvorous X-breathing monsters who are also high-level casters. They're not giant squirrels hibernating for a century with a stash of steadily depreciating nuts, they're powers to be reckoned with in their own right. If your 1909 day-trader could wake up today with a few tons of gold close to hand and the ability to lay waste to wide areas and slaughter thousands single-handedly, I think he'd be a bit better off than you make out.

Eldan
2009-07-28, 05:24 AM
Also, even today, I think a Great Wyrm would have the power to back up his own currency, if necessary.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 05:25 AM
Yeah... in a world I've started to punt ideas around for homebrewing, there would, on the focused-on continent, be 500 Dragons. This is in somthing the size of asia, and I mean every type's numbers put together. Only 50 care to interfere in human affairs in any meaningful way. i.e. more than the classic "give maidens" situation. Of these, 5 are known widely.

Compare to several million humanoids.

Eldan
2009-07-28, 05:29 AM
The problem is still the following: I've seen this article online that calculated that in the real world, basically no one is over level 5. They made Einstein a believable level 5 expert. Therefore, in any halfway meaningful "medieval" fantasy world, people over level 5 should be absolute exceptions, with people over level 10 being legends already.
Compare that to 50 dragons and you see that even then, they would have no problem controlling the world.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 05:36 AM
Yeah... in a world I've started to punt ideas around for homebrewing, there would, on the focused-on continent, be 500 Dragons. This is in somthing the size of asia, and I mean every type's numbers put together. Only 50 care to interfere in human affairs in any meaningful way. i.e. more than the classic "give maidens" situation. Of these, 5 are known widely.

Compare to several million humanoids.

But any pool of rulers and leaders - the real movers and shakers at the absolute top of the pile - is going to be vastly outnumbered by the people over whom they have power. Who does rule all those humanoids, and what do they have over dragons?

I don't think anyone's suggesting that dragons (or wizards, or anyone else) would rule an entire civilization literally single-handedly. Rather, they'd be at the top of a hierarchy, just like any other ruler. The dragon would have ministers and generals and priests and servants in general, the whole apparatus of government, but unlike your average king or emperor he could literally eat anyone who displeased him and burn down their hometown (personally). Not that he should have to...

Johel
2009-07-28, 05:37 AM
Like most people here :

Dragons are too few in number. The chromatic are prolific but very few reach adulthood because of their uncaring parents and ruthless siblings. The metallic have learned that the ecosystem can't support a large population of dragons and so they somewhat control their own number.

Dragons sleep a lot. With a metabolism that is basically a flying dinosaur with magical power, they would need to eat a lot if they were awake 7/7. Most old dragons go in slumber for long periods and to awake to feed, breed, collect stuff, visit relatives and do whatever you need. Kobolds, young dragons and other minions are there to run the daily operations.

Dragons are living gods and they know it. How interesting would it be for you to run a colony of ants ? Sure it could go further than any other colony of ants. But in the end, if you want something done, you better do it yourself than asking the ants. So, yes.
Most elder dragons just do what they want, without caring for mortals. They are more worried about their personal fame, wealth and family. When they interact with mortals, it's because one of these 3 things is disturbed.
Young dragons might behave differently (like our child when they "play" with insects and small critters) but they don't have the power to really matter yet and over the time, they lose interest.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 05:38 AM
Sorry. More specifically, only 2 of the well known ones are Chromatic. This proportion carries over to the rest of the 50.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-28, 05:41 AM
Probably for the same reason that humans don't dominate colonies of rats or mice. There's little satisfaction to be had in bending such stupid and pathetic creatures to your will. Yeah, they can be trained, if you take the time to do it, but in the end it's probably easier and faster to just do things yourself. Plus they don't live very long so you'll have to keep training them over and over again.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 05:46 AM
So on a point of curiosity, what do dragons do all day? Are they engaged in vast works on a higher plane than that which touches on human affairs, pursuing magical research or interplanar politics or the like? Are they immersed in do-nothing time-filling addictive games and inconsequential puzzles? Or do they just sleep?

Of most interest are the metallic dragons, because the chromatics you can always just say "well, they're running around doing evil because it's how they get their kicks". But what are the long-term interests and goals of benevolent, hyperintelligent superbeings?

Eldan
2009-07-28, 05:46 AM
The only exception to the entire "uninteresting" thing would be spellcasters, actually: even if dragons are epic spellcasters, they might appreciate others throwing out XP for their magical items, or saving spell slots.


Dragons, I'd assume, would be interested in Dragon Politics: even if they don't care about humans, in a race of hyperintelligent near-ageless superbeings, there must be a lot of backstabbing going on.
Generally, they are also interested in treasure for hoarding. It seems to be a biological drive for them, probably connected to mating: the bigger your hoard, the more attractive you are.

mcv
2009-07-28, 05:47 AM
In Dragons of Eberron, there's a a sidebar that actually discusses this question: Why don't dragons solve all the world's problems?

(For context: Eberron has an entire continent run by an epic dragon civilization.)

Answer: You don't want them to. The last time they saved the world from imminent collapse, they incinerated a continent-wide empire of giants ruled by titans by using epic magic.

I'm not familiar with Eberron, but this sounds like a bloody scary world to be a mere human in.

(reads the rest)

Okay, so I was right.


Imagine you're a Dragon living on earth in 1909. You've got a giant bushel of gold, but for whatever reason you decide to convert it into a 'local' currency before you settle down for a 100 year nap.

Is there anywhere on earth where that money would be worth anything today? How would you choose?

Dragons who get involved in human economics are the equivalent of day-traders. There's profit to be made, but one civil war and you're out a massive chunk of change.
Nonsense. Dragons invest in the long term and spread their risks. They're not day-traders, they invest in land or anything else that's currently cheap but stands to grow enormously in value over the next century.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-28, 05:48 AM
Probably for the same reason that humans don't dominate colonies of rats or mice. There's little satisfaction to be had in bending such stupid and pathetic creatures to your will. Yeah, they can be trained, if you take the time to do it, but in the end it's probably easier and faster to just do things yourself. Plus they don't live very long so you'll have to keep training them over and over again.

My thoughts the same. I guess some dragons might like building kingdoms like someone would build lego blocks, and just knock them down for a laugh. But it wouldn't be a long-term aspiration of a dragon in my books.

After all, I'd imagine dragons have their own political wars to fight, hoards to collect and many other things to amuse themselves with. Like fidgeting with those puny little mammals in shining armour.

Telonius
2009-07-28, 05:49 AM
I've always pictured Dragons as being very much like cats in personality. Could kill us all in our sleep if they wanted to, but too lazy to do so.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 05:50 AM
See, metallics do occasionally foster wyrmlings with humans...

Kris Strife
2009-07-28, 05:57 AM
For the same reason humans don't try to rule kobolds: We're more useful as exp and treasure fodder.:smalltongue:

Zen Master
2009-07-28, 06:00 AM
In my view, dragons are very much like gods - in so far as they really have better things to do with their time than lording it over irrelevant lesser beings.

Occasionally they may use such beings as pawns, if the effort seems worth it - but generally micromanagement of a horde of humans has to produce very specific effects to be worth the bother.

Also - in my worlds, dragons aren't good. Metallic versions ... don't exist.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 06:02 AM
I'm not familiar with Eberron, but this sounds like a bloody scary world to be a mere human in.

(reads the rest)

Okay, so I was right.

Really, so are (or should be) most fantasy settings, they just don't seem to notice it. By default the world is filled with terrifying monsters, flown over by dragons, burrowed under by drow, gnawed at by illithid and beholders, contested by demons and devils and gith and...

A continent of powerful dragons who pretty much mind their own business is small potatoes.


Dragons, I'd assume, would be interested in Dragon Politics: even if they don't care about humans, in a race of hyperintelligent near-ageless superbeings, there must be a lot of backstabbing going on.

Ah, but wouldn't you expect those few, powerful entities with so much (their lives) to lose, to use proxies in their politicking? One would expect draconic politics to lead to more involvement in mortal affairs, as they use one another's tribes and kingdoms and armies against each other in preference to just flying from one cave to another and staging draconic throwdowns.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 06:02 AM
For the same reason humans don't try to rule kobolds: We're more useful as exp and treasure fodder.:smalltongue:

Actually, most Dragons don't bother to pick up class levels in the first place. They've already got really scary stuff, and just get more power through age. Those that do, tend towards Dragon-specific Prestige classes.

Lysander
2009-07-28, 06:18 AM
It really depends what they want to run. For example, why would a dragon want to rule humans and not say dwarves, or gnomes, or orcs, or bugbears, or dolphins? All of them are about as alien and inferior to a dragon. In a world with so many different types of creatures, most with their own independent regions, there's no real reason to pick one species to control over another. It'd be like a human picking a random organism to rule worldwide - SPARROWS! I WILL BE YOUR KING!

Eldan
2009-07-28, 06:27 AM
Obviously, you have never been around behavioural scientists or evolutionary biologists, then :smalltongue: We sometimes tend to do just that.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 06:30 AM
Besides, it isn't an entirely accurate comparison.

I mean, I can't communicate with sparrows to tell them what I want them to do. I can't speak Sparrow. But a Dragon can speak Common, and a human (or elf, dwarf, whatever) can learn to speak Draconic.

kpenguin
2009-07-28, 06:32 AM
If you gave me the opportunity to be king of all the dolphins in the world, I'd take it.

Oslecamo
2009-07-28, 06:33 AM
Obviously, you have never been around behavioural scientists or evolutionary biologists, then :smalltongue: We sometimes tend to do just that.

You don't need to go that far.

We do rule over chickens. And cows. Altough it isn't that glorious, but they do live and die at our whims.

Fixer
2009-07-28, 06:34 AM
There is a campaign setting where Dragons rule all. Two of them, in fact.

Dragonstar
Isles of Io

Give them a look over, if you want to know some specifics.

random11
2009-07-28, 06:35 AM
In most campaigns, for the same reason we don't try to rule the animal kingdom.
We treat some animals as food, some as a threat, some as pets and the rest we ignore.

Dragons simply don't care. Humans are not important to them any more than animals are important to us.
The good dragons are more or less like a people trying to protect animals from extinction, the bad dragons are like people who kill for pleasure or sport, but non of them treat humans as equals.

Eldan
2009-07-28, 06:35 AM
Well, when we had our first series of experiments at the beehive a year ago, it tended to get a little boring, just watching them sit on artificial paper flowers and making marks on a paper depending on where they went.
Since we had basically just been introduced to each other, we started talking about TV, then Futurama and finally, "I sent in Wave after Wave of my men!", i.e. Zap Brannigan quotes. From there, it's not really all that far to "Armies of Trained BEES!"

Fizban
2009-07-28, 07:02 AM
TL;DR---Draconic measures are so draconian that the PCs should be glad that saving the world is in their hands.
Fixed that for you.


I do something like the lazyness idea, on a grander scale: I haven't read the draconomicon in a while, but at least when it came up in my world I did it like this:

Dragons never die. Instead, as they age, they become ever larger. But the larger they get, the more their metabolisms slow down, until, eventually, the super colossal megabeasts just lay still somewhere outside, because their caves no longer fit them. Over time, sand piles up on them, weather washes over them, plants grow on them. They become landscape features. Hills, mountain ranges and so on, are often sleeping dragons with scales so hard, they don't notice anything.
Dwarves know this and carefully make sure to dig around any of the castle-sized armor plates they find buried deep beneath the roots of the oldest mountains.

This is actually stolen from a legend I read once, where sleeping dragons became dragon trees. (Don't know if that's the english name, but they were called that. You can go and have a look at these trees, even. They are impressive)
This is awesome. Pretty drastic change from normal, but there's no real normal anyway. You do realize that in this setting you must either wake up all the ancient dragons to fight an ultimate evil, have an ultimate evil that is a dragon awoken from it's permanent sleep, or both, right?

I'd probably say there's the whole range of levels of draconic influence in any given world unless there's a universal biological factor like above. Unless the PC's interact with it you don't need to details (unless it floats your boat), so pick something then.

Eldariel
2009-07-28, 07:13 AM
But they do run things! DMG specifies that some percentage of inhabitations have a monstrous power center. Draconomicon talks of Dragons as plotters and movers. But yeah, your average Dragon's abilities are of less use for controlling a country than a Wizard's simply because their spellcasting is secondary to their physical prowess which is of little use for controlling as opposed to annihilating (especially if he doesn't want to fight the entire army of whatever country he's seeking to control).

That said, Dragons using their shapeshift ability to acquire Humanoid-forms can easily become the power behind the throne or some such.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 07:15 AM
That said, Dragons using their shapeshift ability to acquire Humanoid-forms can easily become the power behind the throne or some such.

Oh no! D&D really is becoming WoW!

Eldariel
2009-07-28, 07:18 AM
Oh no! D&D really is becoming WoW!

More like WoW is becoming D&D; we had humanoid Dragons controlling countries FIRST.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 07:21 AM
More like WoW is becoming D&D; we had humanoid Dragons controlling countries FIRST.

WoW's pernicious influence is warping time! We're really screwed now.

Ahem.

Saph
2009-07-28, 07:27 AM
Probably for the same reason that humans don't dominate colonies of rats or mice. There's little satisfaction to be had in bending such stupid and pathetic creatures to your will. Yeah, they can be trained, if you take the time to do it, but in the end it's probably easier and faster to just do things yourself. Plus they don't live very long so you'll have to keep training them over and over again.

I think this is the best explanation. Especially the "you have to keep training them over and over again" part.

From the dragon's point of view, you'd spend a bit of time, sort out a human community, get to the point where you expect them to manage for a while without supervision, then you go off to attend to some other matters. You leave them on their own for just five minutes - well, thirty years or so, which is still barely more than a long weekend by dragon standards - and then come back and all of a sudden everything's changed and you have to start over.

In fact, the entire concept of "why don't dragons run things" would probably be difficult for a dragon to understand. It would be like a mouse coming up to you while you're sitting at your computer and asking why you don't run the mouse colony in the sewers.

- Saph

horngeek
2009-07-28, 07:31 AM
See, I don't see it like that.

Mice don't generally organise themselves into an army and attempt to kill you if you mistreat them.

Plus, Dragons do have a lot more in common with humans than humans do with mice. For example, they can communicate.

At the very least, it's possible for a dragon to rule over humans. There are also examples of Gold Dragon Wyrmlings being fostered with humans. The parents check on them, but still.

Saph
2009-07-28, 07:33 AM
Okay, so it's more like an adult being asked to run a kindergarten, with kids that'll never grow up. Still not something you'd be all that thrilled to do unless it was the kind of thing you liked doing anyway.

- Saph

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 07:34 AM
They don't run things because I kill every last one of them, or make them actually rare.

God, I hate dragons. Stupid scalies. -stabs one at random-

I much prefer them as the non-talking and stupid type rather than "HAR HAR HAR I AM A VERY UGLY GOD BECAUSE I'M JUST THAT AWESOME."

-stabs-

horngeek
2009-07-28, 07:35 AM
That's why I said that Metallic Dragons would probably only rule in a caretaker role until a human ruler was able to take the throne. Bit like when you have a substitute teacher.

For a chromatic dragon, it's more like when the adult is a sadist and likes to terrorise the kids.

Morty
2009-07-28, 07:37 AM
They don't run things because I kill every last one of them, or make them actually rare.

God, I hate dragons. Stupid scalies. -stabs one at random-

I much prefer them as the non-talking and stupid type rather than "HAR HAR HAR I AM A VERY UGLY GOD BECAUSE I'M JUST THAT AWESOME."

-stabs-

Good gods, I'm not alone.
And the answer to the OP's question is - that's what heroes are for. If a dragon tries to enslave people, high-level adventurers come and kick its scaly ass.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 07:38 AM
Dragons do involve themselves in human affairs, though. They variously interbreed, or shapeshift and go around doing good deeds, or waylay travellers and demand to be entertained with a song and a tall tale, or sponsor/assist adventuring parties on important quests.

Given all that, and given that they live near and live off human lands (taking cattle from the fields, etc.) you'd expect them to involve themselves at least to the extent of reaching comfortable accomodations with their neighbours and ensuring lines of supply of the luxuries they like.

(I'm reminded of the dragon Tymrofarrar in Neverwinter Nights. "July 3rd. Orc raiding party in foothills. Tasted terrible. Note to self: raid for salt.")

horngeek
2009-07-28, 07:41 AM
:smallbiggrin: good quote.

But yes, that's what Metallic Dragons would do. If one had a lair within 10 miles/kilometres of a town or villiage, expect them to be a presence there.

If it's a Chromatic, well, that's what adventurers are for.

... now I want to see if we could get a Dragon game together. Where the PC's are all dragons.

I sense oncoming shenanigans of various kinds.

Deadmeat.GW
2009-07-28, 07:45 AM
Anyone ever read 'Cast in Courtlight'?

Or any of the Elantran chronicles books?

I like the way they handle dragons in there.

They rule but more in a 'I am the boss and you will ALL do as I say, oh, by the way, be polite and civil to each other.' and they only interfere if something starts interfering with their toybox.

Set
2009-07-28, 07:45 AM
Most dragons wouldn't want to 'run things.' Some dragons would. They are not a monolithic species, after all. Dragonkind represents *at least* ten different subspecies (if not dozens, counting Shadow, Fang, Gem, Oriental, etc. dragons), all with different rough personality types, and any one of which could be a bit of an exception to that rough personality type.

Some of those who want to be power-players might simply suck at it, due to rosy intentions leading to constant frustration (some metallics) or violent tempers destroying everything they are trying to build (some chromatics).

But a few will have both the wisdom and the temperament to get the job done. Some might use magic to infiltrate human society, and become 'advisor to the king', fulfilling a Gandalf-like role of blowing in with useful advice when it pleases them, and being 'away' the rest of the time. Others might use brute force to forge a kingdom out of local beings, such as a volcanic-mountain-range dwelling ancient red who tames the local fire giant and hobgoblin tribes and forges them into an Ashen Empire, with itself and it's half-dragon fire giant children as overlords. Pick somewhere appropriate on the map, say the Hellfurnaces, in Greyhawk, and say, 'the Ashen Emperor holds these lands, and any who pass too close must pay tribute. Fire giants are the nobility of his kingdom, red-scaled kobolds the working class and branded fire hobgoblins (from unearthed arcana) proudly display their brands and ceremonial shackles, a sign of their mameluke-like status, as his slave-soldiers. Dozens of Azer smiths forge the armor and jewelry worn by those of the Fire Court, working under their advanced Efreeti overseer, who serves as 'Vizier' to the Ashen Emperor, and may be the closest thing the red dragon has to a friend, in this cruel kingdom.

The grandly named 'Ashen Empire' suffers from attacks by the formerly powerful remnants of a hobgoblin run kingdom that the Ashen Emperor and his fire giant 'nobles' destroyed, which is now primarily made up of goblins and bugbears, living an existence of guerilla warfare against the usurper, and forced to defend themselves against their former hobgoblin allies.


Another dragon might have taken on a human(oid) form, and the cruel mocking elves of the Singing Woods might serve an ageless Fey Queen, who leads the dissipated and jaded society into ever new depths of depravity and irrelevance, their lives wasted in games of courtly intrigue and subtle machinations against one another. Scurrying kobold slaves maintain the day to day lives of their elven masters, all of whom have far better things to concern themselves with, so distracted are they in their games and social byplay, and the keenly observant may note that the kobold 'slaves' are the only ones who seem to get anything done, at the direction of the Deathless Queen, who is secretly a green dragon, who has spent the last 1500 years enjoying the sycophantry and flattery and currying for favor of her former elven foes, all the while destroying their wills, and their morals, by encouraging them into greater and greater excesses and indulgences. She lives a life of luxury, supported in hedonistic splendor and revered as very nearly a living god by the descendents of the same dragon-slaying elven heroes who once nearly drove her from the Singing Woods!


Each dragon type would have it's own preferred method of meddling in human)(oid) affairs, and each individual dragon would be more or less likely to be successful at these sorts of things. A dozen ravaged northman villages might be the only sign of a white dragon's repeated unsuccessful attempts to forge an 'Empire of Ice,' only to be ruined when it loses it's patience and allows things to fall apart during an extended hunting trip to feast on whales out over the icy waters, or when it loses it's temper and slaughters an entire feasthall full of cowed barbarian followers because of a simple misunderstanding. It might even end up being beaten into submission by the frost giants it attempted to 'tame,' and end up in the ignominous position of having to work for them!

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 07:52 AM
Good gods, I'm not alone.
And the asnwer to the OP's question is - that's what heroes are for. If a dragon tries to enslave people, high-level adventurers come and kick its scaly ass.

- High fives. -

I like to keep things that have deity-like powers (And tbh, most high level dragons -are- - they can even make 'avatars' of themselves, just so they can be sexy. Drawbacks? What are drawbacks?) rare in D&D games. And other mythical animals need their time to shine too. There's a whole lot of things out there that are much prettier or cooler than overgrown lizards everywhere you spit.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 07:54 AM
5 Highly visible dragons in a continent the size of asia is not what I call 'everywhere you spit'.

Also, I happen to like Dragons, especially the wise type.

Also, double post on your part.

AslanCross
2009-07-28, 07:56 AM
I'm not familiar with Eberron, but this sounds like a bloody scary world to be a mere human in.

(reads the rest)

Okay, so I was right.

Well, like I said, the dragons need an extremely pressing threat to do anything.

The human civilization had war among its members for 100 years. The dragons kept their hands off, for the most part.

The Last War ended in a cataclysmic explosion that erased an entire country off the map. The dragons didn't concern themselves with it.

They will only act when there is a direct threat to their civilization. In the case of the giants, the giants were misusing the gift of epic magic and were in danger of sundering the world. In my adventure's case, Tiamat being released would be bad news for the dragons.

It takes a lot to stir the Light of Siberys (the Dragon army) to action. But when they take action, woe betide the perceived threat.

The humanoid civilizations should be happy the dragons are content with studying the Draconic Prophecy. (At least they have a pastime that doesn't involve sleeping all day.)

The dragons that live among the humans are typically urban---they masquerade as humanoids in major cities as scholars/refugees/hedonists.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 07:56 AM
Sorry. I was too busy pointing out where on the simulacrum the bad dragon touched me. Didn't mean to double post.

They killed my mother and left me in a road-side ditch to die, so I must fight their evil wherever they arise, with a rabid, foaming mouth.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 07:59 AM
What colour was it?

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 08:08 AM
What colour was it?

All twenty-odd million colors and counting. They use reality revision to add to their numbers about once every 5 splatbooks.

I wouldn't mind them so much if they weren't guaranteed a spot of prominence somewhere in every setting - even Eberron. Just about every other mythical animal ever can get ignored or dropped, but dragons... whoa boy. Kobolds are now probably more popular than gnomes, and it's because OMG, they get to be little dragons!

And if they didn't just keep adding to them like they were Pokemon... And adding classes devoted to them, giving them more epic powers, special abilities... The magic abilities are really the part that overkills it for me. Can't something big and ugly just deal with the drawbacks of being big and ugly?

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 08:13 AM
I wouldn't mind them so much if they weren't guaranteed a spot of prominence somewhere in every setting - even Eberron. Just about every other mythical animal ever can get ignored or dropped, but dragons... whoa boy.

Coincidentally, most settings are also chock-full of dungeons.

AslanCross
2009-07-28, 08:15 AM
- High fives. -

I like to keep things that have deity-like powers (And tbh, most high level dragons -are- - they can even make 'avatars' of themselves, just so they can be sexy. Drawbacks? What are drawbacks?) rare in D&D games. And other mythical animals need their time to shine too. There's a whole lot of things out there that are much prettier or cooler than overgrown lizards everywhere you spit.

I love dragons, but I don't like the common stereotype of them somehow being cave-dwelling creatures who sleep all the time who somehow like shinies.
This is why I really like their portrayal in Eberron---they're just as varied as humanoids and yet can coexist as a society.
-They actually USE their vast intellect to study something larger than themselves (the Draconic prophecy) instead of daydreaming.
-They actually USE their vast might to fight threats (the Demon Overlords, the giants, etc), but as I've mentioned they're both too aloof AND too zealous to be a reliable Deus Ex Machina.

Due to them being varied, there are of course renegades. If they're on Khorvaire, where most of the humanoid civilizations are, they're outcasts, renegades, and go to great lengths to go incognito. If they're on Xen'drik (ruins of the giant civilization), they're either guards left behind to ensure the broken giantkind doesn't rise up (or that Indiana Jones adventurers don't rediscover the giants' McGuffins) or just vengeful, spiteful fiends (like Ketheptis, the CE silver dragon who rules over a tribe of Frost giants and eats Drow McNuggets).

It's hell of a lot more interesting than "oh hai, here sum big lizards. They got smarts. They got shinies."

Morty
2009-07-28, 08:18 AM
Coincidentally, most settings are also chock-full of dungeons.

The only setting without dragons would be... I don't know. Dark Sun maybe, because it's allegedly rather non-standard.
I'd add something more, but AstralFire expressed my thoughts on the subject neatly. WoTC's way to make something better seems to be "moar dragunz".

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 08:22 AM
Coincidentally, most settings are also chock-full of dungeons.

I'm amazed we got this far without that stock response. Dungeons don't dominate a setting the way dragons do - dungeons can't proactively make political changes in the world and people don't go around naming everything in the setting after Uncle Jim's Dungeon of Terrors or Aunt Mar'syta's Gaol of Death.

@ AslanCross - I tolerate their presence in Eberron somewhat because of their portrayal there. It's about the only place I can stand demigod dragons.


The only setting without dragons would be... I don't know. Dark Sun maybe, because it's allegedly rather non-standard

You would think that, wouldn't you?

The City-States of Athas described in the original rulebooks are ruled by several "dragon kings," former Champions of Rajaat, the first sorcerer of Athas, who was obsessed with returning the world to its Blue Age, and orchestrated the extermination of all the "impure" Athasian races created since then (all but the native halflings; and the thri-kreen, which he believed were animals). When the champions learned that Rajaat intended to destroy the humans as well, they rebelled against him. The rebels could not slay their master because of his vast and unparalleled knowledge of sorcery, and imprisoned him in a place called "The Hollow" instead. Afterwards, in order to maintain Rajaat's prison, they worked in concert to turn one of their number, Borys of Ebe, into a fully-fledged dragon, capable of maintaining their erstwhile master's magical prison. Each of the remaining Champions stopped warring on their races and became Sorcerer-Kings of various City States.

No matter how non-standard the setting gets... DRAGONS ULTIMATELY RUN THE SHOW.

Eldan
2009-07-28, 08:23 AM
Planescape, as written up. Thinking about it, I can't remember a single dragon mentioned in the sourcebooks. They did however mention something like dragons feeling uncomfortable on the outer planes, because their magic was tied to the prime.
Of course, later editions and books added the planar dragons.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 08:27 AM
I'm amazed we got this far without that stock response. Dungeons don't dominate a setting the way dragons do - dungeons can't proactively make political changes in the world and people don't go around naming everything in the setting after Uncle Jim's Dungeon of Terrors or Aunt Mar'syta's Gaol of Death.

The game is expected to contain Dungeons and Dragons. By their nature, if you put Dragons in to the world, they will presumably have some place of prominence for the reasons you just described. "Just about every other mythical animal can be ignored and dropped" because they're not a hugely iconic part of the game built right in to the name. Dragons are. Unless they're left out entirely, they're going to have an impact.

I agree with you that the proliferation of X Dragons is silly, much as the subrace saturation for Elves (and others). I don't agree that this somehow means Dragons are a bad thing in the game.

Mando Knight
2009-07-28, 08:30 AM
I think the ones that are old and powerful enough to rule the world did rule the world... but then they got bored with it and let those funny little fleshy guys take over. The next oldest group are held in check by the older ones, especially if the old ones take a liking to the squishy pawns that are flooding the valley. The youngest ones don't yet have the skill to take over the world.

Or, alternatively, you go with 4E's default assumption: the dragons and their servants ruled much of the world, contested only by those with diabolic or divine backers. The diabolic nation fights the draconic nation on principle of them being different, and it leads both empires into a bloody war that destroys them both. The dragons and devils learn from their previous attempt, and try to play their hands close to their chests until they know how the other guy was dealt.

jmbrown
2009-07-28, 08:31 AM
Whoa a game called Dungeons and Dragons includes dungeons and dragons someone alert the press!

Rulership is such a human concept that stems from our short lives IMO. Dwarves are never described as imperial expansionists except when it's tied into their ancestral home. Elves don't build huge armies to claim territory across the land. Halflings don't raise large armies to assimilate other cultures into their own. The evil variants of these races do but their inherent evil-ness keeps them from mustering long before they turn on themselves.

Dragons have always been described as being really aloof and even the lawful dragons are written as having the attention span of a child. A dragon would rule a small kingdom for maybe a century before growing bored and flying off somewhere else to do god knows what perhaps to return a century later and find the civilization he left has either been destroyed or completely changed.

If I was an ancient creature that lived a thousand something years I'd be doing far more interesting things than claiming tiny chunks of land that take 5 minutes to fly over in my own.

Spiryt
2009-07-28, 08:31 AM
Isn't the
"some rather powerful (evil) guys want to achieve power over village/country/whole cosmos, but some other (usually good) force spoils their plans"
major part of Faerun/Greyhawk/whatever cliche anyway?

That would answer the question.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 08:34 AM
The game is expected to contain Dungeons and Dragons. By their nature, if you put Dragons in to the world, they will presumably have some place of prominence for the reasons you just described. "Just about every other mythical animal can be ignored and dropped" because they're not a hugely iconic part of the game built right in to the name. Dragons are. Unless they're left out entirely, they're going to have an impact.

I agree with you that the proliferation of X Dragons is silly, much as the subrace saturation for Elves (and others). I don't agree that this somehow means Dragons are a bad thing in the game.

As might be gleaned, I don't actually hate dragons so much as its their raw proliferation and overfocus that gets me. If they had a smaller variety of abilities - if you had to be really super old and superspecial to learn enough magic to polymorph, meaning that there's like once in the history of the world that one is known to do it - I wouldn't be quite so vitriolic about them. And really, there's no need for the dragon-based classes and dragons getting like three books to themselves.

Please please please do not use this to start 4E versus 3E debates, but the only thing that just made me facepalm - still makes me facepalm - when I opened up the 4E PHB was Dragonborn.

If you want to make dragons wise and powerful, fine, but strip off the polymorphing and spell-likes and don't make the hatchlings so common you actually need to stat them as monsters, too.

Carnivorous_Bea
2009-07-28, 08:37 AM
In my campaign the reason dragons don't run things is basic contempt. Even the good ones view the other races as inferior in almost every way to them. They may have a benign attitude, like somebody putting out birdseed for birds :smallwink:, but they know they're smarter, stronger, wiser, etc. etc.

So, basically, it comes down to this. Would you want to be the human king of a prairie dog colony or a rabbit warren? :smallbiggrin:

Sebastian
2009-07-28, 08:51 AM
The way I see it is like an ant asking if humans are so powerful why they don't control its anthill. Dragons do run things, but only important things, and humans affairs very often don't qualify.

Keshay
2009-07-28, 08:57 AM
Okay, so it's more like an adult being asked to run a kindergarten, with kids that'll never grow up. Still not something you'd be all that thrilled to do unless it was the kind of thing you liked doing anyway.


You mean like, say, a Kindergarten teacher? Or a foster parent who takes care of younger kids?

Nourturing beings of lesser intellect and prowress is actually quite a common and rewarding activity that many people engage in.

Saph
2009-07-28, 09:46 AM
The difference is that kids grow up to be adults. Humans don't grow up to be dragons.

Teaching a kindergarten would be a good deal less fulfilling if the kids were never going to grow up.

- Saph

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 09:51 AM
Not if the kindergarteners drop dead after five minutes of your relative attention. Then you get depressed. And the "never growing up" part makes it all even more pointless, because you're not helping developing young minds, you're trying to educate something that's literally incapable of understanding you or changing, and that will die in five minutes anyways.

EDIT: GOD DAMN YOU NINJASAPH OF CLAN SAPHNINJA

I think we've got a decent handle by now on why a dragon wouldn't want to run something - oh look, now you control an army! By the time you can play around with a government's entire military it can't do half of what you can, it's much slower, and it carries politics with its every move. Whoop de shoop. The age by which a dragon is easily capable of messing around with entire kingdoms is the age by which it is no longer necessary. Why spend eighteen hours picking the lock on a safe when you can just carry it off, snip off the entire door, and empty it? Even if you're not willing to simply take what you want without restraint, you can just engage in lots of one-off manipulations without going to the bother of trying to run a bunch of panicking monkeys.
It's down to perspective: dragons as individuals are less reliant on others, and given their birth rates and populations they aren't often in contact with each other. Each dragon seems to be the head of its own city-state at all times: the Greater Republic of Me.

Now the question is more "what the hell do they do with all that time." Realistically speaking they should all be taking class levels, even if they're only Draconomicon class levels - it fits in perfectly with the whole "GRoM" attitude. Scrying on everything within their territory for opportunities and surveillance, developing new magic, training yourself, fortifying your lair, probing your borders outwards.... really, thinking of a dragon as its own one-man government actually does seem to help give you an idea of what it does in its spare time. It's playing a game of Civilization on hardmode with itself standing as an entire nation. The only downside with this approach that I can see is that it makes dragons that much more under-CR'd because now they're going to be really, really prepared in addition to being really, really smart. They are the goddamned batdragons, except they active, not reactive.

kamikasei
2009-07-28, 10:03 AM
Even if you're not willing to simply take what you want without restraint, you can just engage in lots of one-off manipulations without going to the bother of trying to run a bunch of panicking monkeys.

This is an important point, I think. Dragons may well run the world as far as they're concerned, in that they exert their influence to arrange matters according to their desires. They just don't sit on committees or have titles or read TPS reports in the process.

Set
2009-07-28, 10:04 AM
The difference is that kids grow up to be adults. Humans don't grow up to be dragons.

Teaching a kindergarten would be a good deal less fulfilling if the kids were never going to grow up.


Dogs and cats don't grow up to become people. Doesn't stop millions of people from loving them, considering them part of the family and caring for them indulgently. And dogs and cats can't go on to become higher level clerics and wizards and such than their mentors, either.

Since many fantasy settings have humans who have become *gods,* and there seem to be more formerly-human dieties than formerly-dragon dieties, it's possible that the dragon who chooses to guide a race of 'lesser beings' has to eventually accept the fact that some of these 'lesser beings' could be on the path to *massively* transcending draconic existence and becoming something much, much greater.

Still, it's possible that the vast majority of chromatic dragons would hold the little people in contempt. And those would be the arrogant ones that get weeded from the gene-pool by great dragon-slaying heroes, perhaps even Epic ones. The *smarter* ones would find ways to avoid that fate, and being a part of human(oid) society, pulling strings and sending those annoying dragon-slaying heroes off on otherplanar jaunts to 'rescue that paladin from hell' or whatever would be doing themself a great service. Plus, it's always nice to be in charge of a mercantile consortium that tithes 10% up the pyramid to the fat lizard in charge. So much easier than attacking caravans and hoping that the guards were paid in gold, as a treasure horde of cloth goods, sacks of grain and salted meat is a bit less impressive...

And then there are the metallics, who *might* have a few arrogant non-good members who hold 'lesser races' in contempt, being giant, super-powered bigots and fools, but most of them are inherently good, and superhumanly intelligent, and, barring insanity, or corruption by fiendish forces, would regard the 'lesser races' as equally capable of great things (or great wickedness, if left un-shepherded). The various shapechanging dragons, such as Golds, are even described as actively moving among the other races, and some classic dragons, such as the Greyhawk or Steel Dragons, are known to spend more time in humanoid form than in dragon form, practicing their craft and engaged in their researches.

If one wants to make all dragons non-good, and not too smart, filled with contempt and derision, that's cool, but it's not the D&D standard. Most adult dragons are smarter than the various humanoid races, and wouldn't casually disregard races that can produce epic level dragonslayers and whose cultures, kingdoms and empires cover most of the planet. In a setting where humans, elves, dwarves, etc. are like cavemen, huddled in huts and not existing in communities over a couple of dozen, sure, it would be easy enough to dismiss them. But that's not the standard setting. The game maps have human(oid) kingdoms covering most of the available real estate, except for some deserts or arctic reaches, which makes it less and less likely that any creature, even a dragon, can just stick it's head in the sand and pretend that the 'lesser races' aren't running the planet.

Talya
2009-07-28, 10:12 AM
With some monney, a human could easily own hundreds or thousands of rats. But practicaly no one wants to.
Some people own some thousands of chicken and run their own farm, but they are very few. But if you want to, every human could do that.

And I guess most dragons are simply not at all interested in running a kingdom or even a city of 10.000 humans.


I really like this explanation.

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 10:15 AM
If one wants to make all dragons non-good, and not too smart, filled with contempt and derision, that's cool, but it's not the D&D standard. Most adult dragons are smarter than the various humanoid races, and wouldn't casually disregard races that can produce epic level dragonslayers and whose cultures, kingdoms and empires cover most of the planet. In a setting where humans, elves, dwarves, etc. are like cavemen, huddled in huts and not existing in communities over a couple of dozen, sure, it would be easy enough to dismiss them. But that's not the standard setting. The game maps have human(oid) kingdoms covering most of the available real estate, except for some deserts or arctic reaches, which makes it less and less likely that any creature, even a dragon, can just stick it's head in the sand and pretend that the 'lesser races' aren't running the planet.

The problem with this, which is more the default assumption for dragons in a setting, is that it actually doesn't work if we treat the dragons as their intellects and ages should work. Yes, they SHOULD be treating the other races as inferior, because they statistically and provably ARE. The only thing they have on dragons is birth rate and a more rapid rate of maturity, and when you get into elves and dwarves they don't even have that. This isn't even some psuedo-racist aryan-supremecist-fantasy-analogue, it is 100% correct. The average adult dragon is smarter than a human to a degree ranging from "a bit" to "genius," is far stronger, can fly, can use magic without even any actual training, can kill things just by breathing on them every minute or less, and will have a natural lifespan longer than that human's civilization.
And if you take that natural intellect, power, and a need to fill long (and LONG) spaces of time, every dragon would also have higher class levels than every humanoid, and wouldn't be worrying about them, epic or not, simply because they're starting from square one hundred and can continue walking on past squares for a hundred times longer. Which explains perfectly why despite probably making the dragons make more sense, this sort of thing should never be used unless you're all playing dragons yourself. If you play the dragons like they are what they should be they win, are justified mary sues, and the game sucks. If the villain just shoots the hero, the story is over and it sucks (unless you are fiendish and magnificent and George R. R. Martin), if the couple sits down and talks things out like reasonable people, the romantic comedy genre is dead. Some things need to happen or they don't work.

Fhaolan
2009-07-28, 10:44 AM
In my campaign, Dragons work a bit differently.

One, there are fewer dragons in general. There is one (1) green dragon, one gold dragon, etc. These aren't different breeds of dragons, but different individuals of the same species, each unique in abilities. There are about forty dragons all told in the world, including hatchlings and the like.

Two, they did rule the world at one point. Dragons were created in a previous age where they were used as intermediaries between the mortal races and the gods. Something went wrong though, and the mortal races started to worship Dragons *as* gods. The ‘real’ gods got a wee bit upset at that, and laid down the smack, which is how that age ended and the current one began. A dragon generation or two later, and the remaining dragons still try to keep their heads down, so-to-speak.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-28, 11:22 AM
It's worth remembering a couple of simple facts, too.

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly; Dragons are not social creatures in the same way that us monkeys are. Dragons did not, in the dawn of their development, need to band together for mutual advantage. If they faced a problem, they set it on fire with their faces. They are super-intelligent enough that should they want to, they would easily be able to comprehend the concepts of society and so on, but it will always be essentially alien to them because they are, at a fundamental level Solitary Apex Preditors.

Secondly; They are Carnivorous, not omnivorous. Even the nicest of Metallics, at their very heart, is a carnivorous predator. Their entire nature is vastly removed from our own (and most other intelligent races, certainly playable ones) experiences.

There will always be exceptions. But as a general rule, there is no reason for a Dragon to see 'political power' or social advancement as even remotely relevant. A human city is little more than a hive of filthy, insignificant mayfly-monkeys, eating and crapping and generally ruining the neighborhood and making everything look untidy.

It's not like they can't just claim any of the benefits of power, at will, just on the fact that who is really going to say no? A Dragon takes what it wants, when it wants, because it wants it. Really, good aligned or not doesn't even come into it.

As for what they get up to all day, well, low activity levels make the most sense. A crocodile can go for a huge amount of time between meals, and I'm sure various snakes only need one big meal a year, for just this reason.

The other possibility of course, is 'Xorvintaal', the Great Game. I'm vaguely aware it was mentioned perhaps in MM5? I can't find much info on it via the web. Ironically, when i search for it online, the top link it gives me sends me to the campaign info page of another group in my Roleplaying Meetup-Group.
(And damn, a campaign I sadly could not join for travel reasons, amongst others.)

The Explanation given on the page is as follows

Some Dragons chose to play a game, a great game where their very hoards are put at risk. This game is Xorvintaal and all the world is the playing board. A Dragon skilled in a Great Game is both respected and feared by other Dragons and it can be a source of a great deal of money.

Yet the Dragons cannot harm each other directly, having sworn terrible and binding oaths not to do so. Thus, each Dragon has servants, Exarchs, who carry out the Dragons wishes, and claim treasure, hunt down other Xorvintaal Dragons, purge dungeons and generally act in the Dragons stead.

And one young female Amythest Gem Dragon is having difficulty establishing herself. This is where the PC's come in. Arynquitubahr (Arin-qwei-two-baa) needs you!

Damn him and his ability to name dragons, also. >_> I'm far too picky and indecisive.

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 11:30 AM
Agreed on almost all counts, especially in pointing out the reasoning behind the solitary mindset. One nit shall be picked and one topic expanded on. First, expansion: dragons actually aren't pure carnivores (although the preferred food of most seems to be meat, and they enjoy hunting, so your apex predator mindset continues to be perfectly descriptive and accurate). They actually aren't even omnivores, what they are is more like....damnit, the term omnivore fits best, but it doesn't fully cover what they can digest. They can eat METAL if they need to. The damned things can churn SOME sort of nourishment out of almost anything, and I think I recall reading somewhere once that a few starving ones have actually used their hoard as a backup food source.
The one and only nit I shall pick is that whether or not dragons are ectothermic (like a cocodile or snake) or endothermic (like a tiger or a great white shark) seems to vary depending who you ask. The 3rd edition draconomicon claimed they were very much endothermic, and I know I've read about them being basically "big lizards" in quite a few places, so this particular aspect of draconatomical science seems variable.

alchemyprime
2009-07-28, 11:31 AM
In my world, dragons have THE RAGE!

That's the term for their uncontrollable rage when seeing their dragon enemies (liek Silvers and Reds, Golds and Greens, Blues and Brasses, etc.). But one continent, Altieriet, the dragons quell the rage from hatching and have since become rulers of the continent. It's because of an adundance of Green Bloodstone that helps with the ritual. Outside of that continent, maybe a few dragons can beat it, but not all. Maybe 5 have.

So yeah, that's my explaination. Even the evil dragons run nice societies in Altieriet.

13_CBS
2009-07-28, 11:32 AM
In my world, dragons have THE RAGE!

That's the term for their uncontrollable rage when seeing their dragon enemies (liek Silvers and Reds, Golds and Greens, Blues and Brasses, etc.). But one continent, Altieriet, the dragons quell the rage from hatching and have since become rulers of the continent. It's because of an adundance of Green Bloodstone that helps with the ritual. Outside of that continent, maybe a few dragons can beat it, but not all. Maybe 5 have.

So yeah, that's my explaination. Even the evil dragons run nice societies in Altieriet.

Bwa ha ha! I can has metaknowledge of Van Kreev!


I'm kidding, I'm kidding. :smalltongue: In all seriousness, I swear that I'll never use this knowledge unless Nulgor knows it, too.

Avilan the Grey
2009-07-28, 11:52 AM
This is awesome. Pretty drastic change from normal, but there's no real normal anyway. You do realize that in this setting you must either wake up all the ancient dragons to fight an ultimate evil, have an ultimate evil that is a dragon awoken from it's permanent sleep, or both, right?

This is very much how Pratchet treats his trolls. They become mountans when they fall asleep as very old, and big.

I really like this.

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-28, 11:53 AM
Agreed on almost all counts, especially in pointing out the reasoning behind the solitary mindset. One nit shall be picked and one topic expanded on. First, expansion: dragons actually aren't pure carnivores (although the preferred food of most seems to be meat, and they enjoy hunting, so your apex predator mindset continues to be perfectly descriptive and accurate). They actually aren't even omnivores, what they are is more like....damnit, the term omnivore fits best, but it doesn't fully cover what they can digest. They can eat METAL if they need to. The damned things can churn SOME sort of nourishment out of almost anything, and I think I recall reading somewhere once that a few starving ones have actually used their hoard as a backup food source.
The one and only nit I shall pick is that whether or not dragons are ectothermic (like a cocodile or snake) or endothermic (like a tiger or a great white shark) seems to vary depending who you ask. The 3rd edition draconomicon claimed they were very much endothermic, and I know I've read about them being basically "big lizards" in quite a few places, so this particular aspect of draconatomical science seems variable.

Well picked nit.

For 4th ed's purposes, they very much stress the 'Elemental' connection, so, really they aren't really ectothermic or endothermic, rather a third, special, different thing. In a functional sense, it seemed at a cursory reading to basically be a bit more like endothermic than Ectothermic, but from a completely different direction.
Basically drawing some of their energy from a seperate source, like a cold-blooded creature, but also controlling their internal body temperature, erm, internally, like in warm-blooded creatures.
But as I said, I skimmed the section, and know only the basics of the whole cold/warm blooded thing. :)

hamishspence
2009-07-28, 11:56 AM
Faerun handled it as: they did rule, once, long ago, but infighting, competition from giants, and the Dracorage Mythal, broke the power of the Dragon Empires.

Even then, quite a few dragons have taken over human cities and ruled for long periods, and as of the post Avatar period, some dragons have control over small kingdoms.

woodenbandman
2009-07-28, 12:26 PM
In my world most of the high level monsters are created/bred as weapons of war with mysterious magics. Dragons, Beholders, any number of greater undeads, Elans, etc.

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 12:26 PM
Well picked nit.

For 4th ed's purposes, they very much stress the 'Elemental' connection, so, really they aren't really ectothermic or endothermic, rather a third, special, different thing. In a functional sense, it seemed at a cursory reading to basically be a bit more like endothermic than Ectothermic, but from a completely different direction.
Basically drawing some of their energy from a seperate source, like a cold-blooded creature, but also controlling their internal body temperature, erm, internally, like in warm-blooded creatures.
But as I said, I skimmed the section, and know only the basics of the whole cold/warm blooded thing. :)
The elemental thing was pretty much part of how Draconomicon went with it - their philosophy was basically "See this weird little organ in the dragon's gullet? It's the reason they can breath crazy ****, produce elemental energy, and live off of absolutely nothing." So strictly speaking they're endotherms running off of some craaaaaazy elemental mojo produced by some sort of supra-spleen. The cold-blooded/warm-blooded phrasing has gone out of style nowadays, mostly because it confused things (wait, so a crocodile sunning itself has a higher body temperature than a human, and it is also cold-blooded?).
I only really got two or three peaks at a 4th edition MM. I know it was light on fluffiness compared to the days of yore, but what kind of stuff's changed for the dragons? I really can't remember.

hamishspence
2009-07-28, 12:33 PM
thats 3.5 Draconomicon.

4th ed said all the elemental power stems from the dragon's heart, rather than the draconis fundementum, and made the energy key to the dragon's digestion, and it more of a "vomit weapon" than breath weapon.

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 12:39 PM
Ick. Fire vomit. Lightning vomit. Sleepy gas vomit.
Yes, sorry, I meant the 3rd edition Draconomicon. I'd forgotten that they'd come out with the 4th edition version already. I'm pretty sure the energy digestion thing was already noted prior to 4th, though, as part of the reason it could get nutrients out of anything and why if the dragon took the "swallow whole" feat you took elemental damage in its gut. I've got to say, having the heart be the source sounds much more impressive and more "magicy" less "pseudosciencey." Huge throbbing muscle coated in fire/lightning = awesome.

jguy
2009-07-28, 01:00 PM
I always thought because there were much, much, much more of the 'other' races though wouldn't appreciate being conquered by a dragon. Now if one proved to be a good ruler and such, sure.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-28, 03:10 PM
The dragons in my in-progress setting are reclusive because they can't afford to spend too much time exposing themselves to the world outside. I made them relics of an ancient divine war, living immortal siege weapons of sorts, and one of their key traits is that they have absolutely perfect, flawless photographic/auditory memory with no way to purge it. They remember everything that has ever happened to them or around them since the moment of their birth, and so if they don't carefully ration what new experiences they allow themselves instead of secluding and reliving their memories, their memories will grow beyond what their age and brains are capable of retaining and go crazy.

Woodsman
2009-07-28, 03:43 PM
In my setting (seems to be common), dragons did rule the world once, but it wasn't their thing. They had bigger and better things to do than rule over puny (and not nearly as civilized) mortals who wouldn't listen to them. I mean, the dragons had thousand-year plans, and the humans just wouldn't last.

So they withdrew, spreading over the world. The occasional dragon still rules, but "ages" his figure (often using alternate form or polymorph) and steps down, leaving the throne for whoever he/she appoints. Nothing is inherently Evil in the world (excluding Outsiders with the "Evil" subtype, and even then...), including Chromatic dragons, so they're not half-bad (just greedy).

The Western Empire of the Southern Continent, however, has an obsession with dragons. The emperor is descended from a gold dragon, the generals are descended from reds and silvers, the nobles and their rank are based on what color dragon was their ancestor, etc. Thy treat half-dragons and draconic characters as nobles immediately, regardless of origin, and refusing Bahamut's Call to become a dragonborn hasn't happened once. Dragons are almost worshipped as gods (The actual gods would get pretty pissed if they were). Hell, kobolds are used as slaves, but they're treated damn nice. So yeah, it's pretty interesting.

Shpadoinkle
2009-07-28, 08:52 PM
Okay, so I was reading the Draconomicon and thinking about just what the hell dragons DO all damn day, besides hunt and hoard gold and polymorph into other species to create some half-dragon offspring, and I noticed a passage that said dragons spend time meditating, and all of a sudden it hit me: Dragons are D&D's Qs.

A Q is an immortal, almost but not quite omnipotent being in the Star Trek universe, and they live in a kind of "higher reality" called the Q Continuum, for those of you who don't follow Star Trek. Originally they were mortal, but thier race was VERY old, and eventually they discovered how to transcend time, space, matter, energy, virtually everything.

So dragons don't just sleep all the time, they're meditating on the nature of everything and everything's relationship to everything else, trying to discern some kind of secret or underlying thread or commonality that will allow them to unravel and re-write reality at will.

chiasaur11
2009-07-28, 09:20 PM
Why they don't rule the world?

Adventurers.

Killing a dragon makes you a big shot hero. Killing a dragon that actually is causing trouble means you're set for life.

And as tough as Dragons are, they tend to go down pretty bloody fast when heroes come into play. Narrative causality does wonders.

So, staying a safe distance from big cities, peasant boys with two older brothers, and the lost sons of kings?

Good idea for the big flappy lizards.

horngeek
2009-07-28, 10:27 PM
That would be metagaming on the Dragon's part.

Kris Strife
2009-07-29, 06:52 AM
If you had an IQ of OVER 9000!!! (which is about right for a average dragon, isn't it?) you could probably 'metagame' your life too. :smalltongue: