Half-Elves [3.5]

[Ellington]

I'm trying to fiddle around with some of the races to make them a bit more feasible, especially gnomes and half-elves.

For the gnomes, the we've houseruled in their old attribute bonuses (+2 int, -2 wis) and that's been working fine, players actually see them as a worthwhile race.

But I'm a bit stumped on the half-elves. I want to give them a +2 charisma bonus but I have no idea what attribute I should use to offset it! I don't think constitution is appropriate since they're nowhere as near as frail as the elves. Or should I give them other sorts of bonuses?

Help!

[Riffington]

I like to give them the +1 skill point per level that humans get, no attribute bonus/penalties. That doesn't make them quite as powerful as humans can be, but it's fairly close.

[Darcand]

I like to give them +2 cha and take away their bonus to dipolmacy and gether info.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

But I'm a bit stumped on the half-elves. I want to give them a +2 charisma bonus but I have no idea what attribute I should use to offset it! I don't think constitution is appropriate since they're nowhere as near as frail as the elves. Or should I give them other sorts of bonuses?

You don't need to offset it at all. The half-elf needs a boost, so offsetting that boost is counterproductive, and extra Cha isn't all that game-breaking.

[jmbrown]

You don't need to offset it at all. The half-elf needs a boost, so offsetting that boost is counterproductive, and extra Cha isn't all that game-breaking.

Boosting a spell casting stat is. The only default race I can think of that gets a boost to a spell casting stat without a level adjustment is gray elf and they have a compounded -2 strength and con.

[AstralFire]

Boosting a spell casting stat is. The only default race I can think of that gets a boost to a spell casting stat without a level adjustment is gray elf and they have a compounded -2 strength and dex.

If it were Int or Wis I'd agree with you, but the Cha based casters are the weaker ones in the first place, and the stat itself is less useful than Int (skills) or Wis (saves).

[Tempest Fennac]

Grey E;ves don't lose their Dex bonus: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm . I know there's an LA 0 Aasimar on Wizard's website which gets +2 Cha with no penalties so WotC don't appear to class that stat as powerful enough to need balancing.

[jmbrown]

Grey E;ves don't lose their Dex bonus: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm . I know there's an LA 0 Aasimar on Wizard's website which gets +2 Cha with no penalties so WotC don't appear to class that stat as powerful enough to need balancing.

Sorry, I meant losing strength and con not dex.

I think it depends on a combination of spell-like abilities and the races' favored class. Fire hobgoblins have favored class fighter despite their +2 intelligence bonus they're still LA0. Half-elves have favored any so giving them a charisma bonus would make players favor the bard and sorcerer. Half-elves are written as favoring those roles in the first place but increasing spell-casting ability without decreasing something else is generally the cause of LA.

Does the LA 0 Aasimar lose daylight or his wisdom bonus? I can see it working then.

[kamikasei]

The only default race I can think of that gets a boost to a spell casting stat without a level adjustment is gray elf and they have a compounded -2 strength and dex.

As Tempest Fennac points out, Gray Elves don't pay any extra cost for the fact that one of their boosts is to a casting stat. They have the normal +2 dex/-2 con, and they also get +2 int/-2 str, with int apparently not being valued above any other stat to trade off.


Sorry, I meant losing strength and con not dex.

But again, they lose str and con in exchange for dex and int. It doesn't seem intended to make that int boost extra costly. They in fact trade a boost in a stat a caster does care about (int) for one they don't (str), with the loss of con simply the price they pay for being an elf.


I think it depends on a combination of spell-like abilities and the races' favored class.

Favoured classes are a) so often ignored and b) so irrelevant to single-(base)-classed casters that I don't think even Wizards would pretend that's a balancing factor.

[AstralFire]

Sorry, I meant losing strength and con not dex.

I think it depends on a combination of spell-like abilities and the races' favored class. Fire hobgoblins have favored class fighter despite their +2 intelligence bonus. Half-elves have favored any so giving them a charisma bonus would make players favor the bard and sorcerer. Half-elves are written as favoring those roles in the first place but increasing spell-casting ability without decreasing something else is generally the cause of LA.

Following Wizards' rules, yes - actually the standpoint is more like it's nearly impossible to get a mental stat boost without a level adjustment. From an actual optimization standpoint, I don't think that +2 Cha will overpower a Half-Elf sorcerer against a Human Sorcerer - I'd lean towards Human most times. Extra feat, extra skill point to actually use my Cha with. This is twice as true for a Bard, which are a little more feat dependent in my experience, and have a bigger skill list you'll want to spend things on.

[Ellington]

Following Wizards' rules, yes - actually the standpoint is more like it's nearly impossible to get a mental stat boost without a level adjustment. From an actual optimization standpoint, I don't think that +2 Cha will overpower a Half-Elf sorcerer against a Human Sorcerer - I'd lean towards Human most times. Extra feat, extra skill point to actually use my Cha with. This is twice as true for a Bard, which are a little more feat dependent in my experience, and have a bigger skill list you'll want to spend things on.

That's the thing. I don't really see anything bad about just giving them a flat out +2 charisma bonus. It just feels iffy having one race without an offset.

I might just give them a few more bonuses and go with a -2 con I guess...

[AstralFire]

-whap- NO.

MINUS CON BAD.

-whap- -whap-

There is no level of reasonable racial bonus you can give except maybe a bonus feat that will aid +2 Cha in equaling -2 Con.

[Eldariel]

-whap- NO.

MINUS CON BAD.

-whap- -whap-

There is no level of reasonable racial bonus you can give except maybe a bonus feat that will aid +2 Cha in equaling -2 Con.

Star Elves pull it off just fine. Of course, the only classes they're good for are Bards, Wilders and Sorcerers, but there you go.

[AstralFire]

I don't like it when a race is only usable for a handful of classes. Maybe it's just me, but I like it when any race is a possible choice for a class that's not stupid, even if they're not ideal for it. Con penalties are a good way of assuring that won't happen, because even meleers can absorb a penalty to Str more easily than that. (Obviously not the Power Attacking, Str-based fighters and barbs = but Swordsages and Warblades...).

The ability to pick up almost any role should be especially true for the half-elf, as that's their schtick more than a human, really. The human picks a role and excels at it, the half-elf is a dilettante.

[Jalor]

In my campaigns, they can choose between a bonus feat or elf weapon proficiencies, depending on whether they were raised by humans or elves.

[PId6]

In my campaigns, they can choose between a bonus feat or elf weapon proficiencies, depending on whether they were raised by humans or elves.
I can't help but feel like the elven half-elves are getting a horrendous deal...

[AstralFire]

I can't help but feel like the elven half-elves are getting a horrendous deal...

Eh. If they have a choice, it's not horrendous. I'm sure there's like... a few situations where you've got a skill monkey class that lacks proficiencies for a few good weapons and you don't want to dip Fighter or Ranger.

[Uin]

Uin's Half-Elves are minus +1 racial Spot/Listen/Search and plus a bonus Skill Focus, which while still meh at least allows them to use it as a pre-req.

[FMArthur]

Half-elves are damn close to having no racial benefits at all. Give it +2 charisma and something else noteworthy; then I'd call it up to par.

[Harperfan7]

Personally, I gave them an ability I kinda stole from 4th ed, inspiration. Once per day per level, they can reroll any roll (except a saving throw).

I also took away their +2 vs. enchanment and made it +2 vs. charm.

[Mindleshank]

What my group does is just give half-elves and extra feat at first level and we have found that it works quite well.

[Eldariel]

I don't like it when a race is only usable for a handful of classes. Maybe it's just me, but I like it when any race is a possible choice for a class that's not stupid, even if they're not ideal for it. Con penalties are a good way of assuring that won't happen, because even meleers can absorb a penalty to Str more easily than that. (Obviously not the Power Attacking, Str-based fighters and barbs = but Swordsages and Warblades...).

Agreed, which is why I dislike how (High) Elves are made right now - Con-loss is literally the only thing that can make a class suboptimal for a given role. Str-loss you can get around with Dex-focus, Dex-loss you can get around with heavy armor and Str-focus, you can get around either with casting and so on. Bleh.

Con is basically the only stat you can't really bypass (outside Faerie Mysteries Initiate). Well, casters can't bypass their casting stat too, but you can get around that by picking a similar casting class with a different primary stat, or by focusing on effects without saves. Con-penalty is just crippling.


You should at least get two good stats for poor Con. Goes to show how poorly WoTC valued the different ability boosts and losses while making the game when +2 Str costs you two stats while -2 Con only buys you +2 in one stat.

[Woodsman]

Half-elves are rather underpowered for a core race.

I think a choice between a bonus feat or bonus skill points would be fine. Or a +2 to Cha with one or the other.

[Devils_Advocate]

I suggest making half-elves half-human as well as half-elven, instead of making them nerfed elves with better people skills. Replacing their bonuses to a couple Cha-based skills with an actual Cha boost still leaves them as a niche race, just a more powerful one. They ought to be good at the things that both elves and humans are good at.


The neat thing about (re)designing human subraces and part-humans is that if you give one a human's skill points, that essentially turns being one into a first-level-only feat for humans. So you just have to balance the benefit of the race against similar feats. And if you want to allow for similar hybrids with other races, you just need to let them take the feat, too.

In this case, I would suggest something like:

Elven Blood [Racial]

Prerequisite
Non-elven.

Special
Can only be taken at first level.

Benefit
You are roughly half elven, as well as half something else somewhat (but not terribly) dissimilar from elves.

You gain low-light vision and a +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. You gain immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.

For all effects related to race, you are considered to be an elf in addition to your other race.
(It suffers from the same problem as a lot of templates, in that it's additive, so that e.g. a half-elf/half-gnome has oddly keen hearing. But they're not big bonuses, so it's nowhere near as absurd as the hill giant dire wearboar that gets a massive increase to strength because dire boars are stronger than humans.)

Edit: Half-orcs need to either get a human's bonus skill points or lose their Int penalty to even get in between how many skill points a human gets and how many an orc gets. Being unusually skilled is a distinctive human trait, and half-orcs ought to inherit some of that from their human ancestry instead of just normal Wisdom and a lack of light blindness.

[AstralFire]

Looking at the 4E design concept behind half-elves - which is what I restated when I said


The ability to pick up almost any role should be especially true for the half-elf, as that's their schtick more than a human, really. The human picks a role and excels at it, the half-elf is a dilettante.

So here's some random thoughts:


The half-elf adds half of his character level to his caster level to determine his caster level for spells. This effect cannot raise his effective caster level above his character level + 2.
The half-elf chooses any one skill to always be a class skill for him, regardless of which class he takes.
The half-elf automatically gains Weapon Specialization as a free feat with the first weapon he gains Weapon Focus in.


Effects:
Nice boost to Paladins and Rangers
Decent boost to full casters
Weapon Specialization sucks, but it's not so bad when its free and that gives you a leg up on some of the okay fighter feats in PHB II. Is better for TWF.
Shines best with a character that engages in heavy multiclassing or is an inherent hybrid.

In return they'd only gain low-light vision from their original racial traits.

[Ellington]

What my group does is just give half-elves and extra feat at first level and we have found that it works quite well.

This actually seems to be the most feasible option, grants them a bit of a human touch and is just pretty simple overall. I think I'll just go for this, thanks!

[AstralFire]

Bah, I thought I had some pretty good ideas there.