DMPC Failures

[The Dark Fiddler]

I'm sure we've all seen them at one point, and maybe you've even made a few.

You're playing, and suddenly, the DM gives you a new person in your group. But this thread? This thread is for when those people fail. It doesn't matter whether it's a small failure, or a spectacularly hilarious failure, let's hear about it.

My story:
Ok, my group, a Level 3 Cleric, Level 3 Elven Ranger, Level 3 Fighter, and Level 3 Druid (me) were on a boat. The DM randomly, after we left our first dungeon, had us run into the Cleric's 'brother', a Level 13 Fighter who never ages (or levels) with a "Plus 10" rapier. Long story short, we join him (better than 'stay[ing] and die[ing]).

We get attacked by a Kraken. Kinda. We could only attack the four tentacles, and if we got rid of them all (through normal attacks, not sunders), it would leave. And we needed to do this in 3 rounds.

First round comes around. PC Fighter misses, Cleric misses, Ranger hits (and kills one), I miss. And the DMPC misses. Second round? Same thing. Final round, with two tentacles left, and we're a bit worried. Cleric hits. PC Fighter hits. Ranger hits (and kills a different one). DMPC Fighter? Misses. I hit with Produce Flame (ranged, and with NO Dex bonus to boot, and not to mention max damage!), killing the last one.

So we kinda defeated the Kraken, and mister "Plus 10" rapier did nothing.

[Indon]

Hoo, I've got one of these.

I started an Exalted game with a DMPC Sidereal - he was very, very politically inept, made a lot of enemies among his fellows, and wasn't even part of a faction and so eventually ended up with a task that was pretty much intended to kill him quick so he could get reincarnated in short order.

But he was a pretty good sorceror and fate crafter, so he concealed a few events from the Wyld Hunt and assembled a Circle - the PC's.

He failed in most combats he was in. Most notably, in one of the first combats the players had, before the group was even fully assembled, the players encountered a Tyrant Lizard in the wilds - it KO'ed the Sidereal in one shot.

He was often so impotent in combat, in fact, that one notable time when he actually did something useful (he heroically charged into combat and prevented a sorceror from getting off a Celestial-Circle spell while the players were being held off by demons), the players cheered for him.

[Rhiannon87]

Marco Volo.

Our DM updated the Volo adventure from 2nd ed to 3.5. I know that a lot of what happened was probably in the module, but we freaking hated that bard. In combat, he was fine, mostly just standing in the back doing his bardic thing, but out of combat... only one character could tolerate him, the sorceress who got involved in a relationship with him. The rest of us wanted him dead. The DM played him utterly obnoxious and arrogant and cryptic. He got us in trouble with the law in nearly every town we visited, and yet somehow would always escape punishment himself.

The crown jewel was when we were in a town, he started playing some crazy music at a performance, killed half the town and then reanimated them as zombies with said music, then started attacking all of us when we tried to stop him. Then he got all emo and sad and faked his own suicide, although he managed to forget to mention the "faked it" part to any of us. We eventually figured out he was somewhere in Sembia. Our DM wanted us to go off on an adventure to Sembia to rescue him, but by this point we were all so annoyed with Volo (and with the adventure, honestly) that he abruptly changed his mind and had my new character bring him back to reunite with the party.

The game sort of died a few sessions after that.

[Yuki Akuma]

The moment an NPC becomes a DMPC, it's already a failure. :smallwink:

[Jalor]

The moment an NPC becomes a DMPC, it's already a failure. :smallwink:

Quoted for truth. I have yet to see one "DMPC" who was not a Deux Ex Machina or a ridiculous self-insert.

[valadil]

a Level 13 Fighter who never ages (or levels) with a "Plus 10" rapier.

If he's 10 levels higher than you with a +10 weapon his attack roll should be about 20 points above yours, not counting ability bumps, 8 feats, and equipment. How did your ranger hit when this guy didn't? Sounds like your GM's mastery of the rules of D&D or basic arithmetic may be questionable.

[AstralFire]

Quoted for truth. I have yet to see one "DMPC" who was not a Deux Ex Machina or a ridiculous self-insert.

This is why I don't run DMPCs whenever I inevitably become DM of a game I was playing in. Even though I invariably get told it'll be okay. I just know I'm such an egotist I will have my former PC steal the show too much.

The Rodian mentioned here was definitely a DMPC failure. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115531)

[The Dark Fiddler]

If he's 10 levels higher than you with a +10 weapon his attack roll should be about 20 points above yours, not counting ability bumps, 8 feats, and equipment. How did your ranger hit when this guy didn't? Sounds like your GM's mastery of the rules of D&D or basic arithmetic may be questionable.

It likely is, considering this is everyone's first time playing. But he's the DM, so whatever. Not my fault he didn't ask me whether this character was made properly. I'm the most familiar with the rules, the main reason I'm not DM is that I wanted to play. I'm selfish like that. But he also wanted to DM, so...

And now I feel guilty. Maybe I should point out his errors in creating the never-aging, never leveling-up, immortal pirate. Who's 'always drunk, but doesn't take a penalty for it'.

[Xallace]

Quoted for truth. I have yet to see one "DMPC" who was not a Deux Ex Machina or a ridiculous self-insert.

I have seen but one, the 9-year-old wizard whom I believe was based roughly on Dexter from Dexter's Laboratory. But that's one out of I don't know how many. And that one was made out of necessity; we had only 3 players, and the DM wanted a 4th for balance reasons.

Alright, but here's a DMPC failure if ever I've seen one. A few details may be wrong, as my memory is a little fuzzy:

We're playing a campaign based on Fire Emblem, a game that I have little to no knowledge of. Part of a mercenary group of some kind, and with us is some guy named Ike and his family (I later recognize Ike when he appears in Super Smash Brothers). Ike's father heads the mercenary crew, and he's also a prince or something.

Now, Ike is in our group all the time. He's supposed to be our leader, our mentor, and weirdly enough, the man whose safety is apparently our sole reason for living. Now, why he needs us I have no idea, seeing as he was a full 13 levels higher than us, spoke to all of the NPCs in place of us, always came out on top in a fight (well, almost; more on that later), and ordered our characters around with the expectation that we would follow obligingly.

So I was playing a warmage in this group, one of the character concepts I was more fond of (a concept sadly wasted on a single-session "campaign"), but that information isn't really relevant to the story. Ike has some family in this group, if I recall correctly it was a younger sister. My character finds her out in the woods and some funny supernatural stuff happens; so, worried for her safety, I decide to try and bring Ike's sister back to the group. This ends with myself in a (rather embarrassing) stand-off with the girl.

The party shows up with Ike at the fore, and he attacks me forthright "because there were strange lights from this area" and I was "caught red-handed" blah blah blah something about his sister.


I later found out that I was attacked because the DM thought I was purposely derailing the plot of the video game campaign despite the fact that he invited me because I had never played the game. He claimed to have believed I went online and researched the plot, just to ruin it, just to spite him because I had at one point made mention of the fact that I thought video-game campaigns were silly when they tried to do nothing but run through the original plot without change. Talk about paranoia.

So anyway, Ike tries to attack, I beat his initiative, cast Gust of Wind and a few other defensive spells that he for some reason has no ability to get around. The party, sensing my innocence (and growing bored with the game as a whole), descend upon Ike like wolves. Our numbers dwindle, and just before one can deal the finishing blow, the DM rage quits. Campaign over, everyone go home.

[Indon]

Quoted for truth. I have yet to see one "DMPC" who was not a Deux Ex Machina or a ridiculous self-insert.

Hey, an Exalted circle not built out of some form of blatant contrivance (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0001.html) isn't sufficiently dramatic*.

*-Not always true for circles consisting solely of one Exalt type, which my campaign was not.

[AstralFire]

Xallace, I gotta ask. Do you intentionally seek out these terrible games, or do you just have a hard time saying 'no'?

[quick_comment]

DMPCs can work really well in PbP games, when the party isnt aware its a DMPC. They can be useful for suggesting things the players miss. Stuff like "hey guys, I think I figured out the riddle" or "maybe that wizard we met in that other town can help us"

Also, DMPCs are useful for starting a campaign. You can kill off a character in the party without annoying a player, to give them a motive to hunt down the BBEG/expose the corrupt mayor/whatever

[Name_Here]

Xallace... Wow that entire story was bad from the get go. The Fire Emblem games are one of my favorite game series but I couldn't even imagine trying to wedge a campaign into any of them. Especially not next to freaking Ike who is pretty ridiculous in the game.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I haven't played under DMs who use them, and the only time I've run DMPCs for my group have been (A) when they lack a healer in high-combat games or a crafter in away-from-civilization games or whatever and (B) when the party is going to get betrayed at some point/have a spy in the party/whatever. The latter doesn't happen very often, but when it does, revenge motivates like you wouldn't believe.

I once added a dwarf wizard as a DMPC to make up for a lack of arcanists whose purpose was to provide humor and highlight the awesomeness of other players. There was an elf wizard in the party who hated dwarves, so I made sure to cast the dwarf in a humorously bad light: He had delusions of grandeur (thought he was the famous Tenser and expected everyone else to as well) and constantly botched what he was supposed to be doing, eventually just serving as a utility type out of combat and then staying in the back lobbing fireballs when initiative was rolled.

[woodenbandman]

I blatantly copy my 2.0 DM and include DMPCs that are really just regular NPCs. We had a shifting roster of DMPCs. First I knew of was Darson, the wizard. Then we had Ironjaw Joan, the (probably fighter). We just basically have a NPC with us, but they don't necessarily know everything or defeat everything or whatever. That's one of the reasons he's a good DM.

[Comet]

Xallace, that is a hilarious story!
I have seen some serious fangasming concerning Ike (because, let's face it, the guy draws fanboys and -girls like Jesus himself), but making an entire RPG campaign just because you want to spend the evenings spreading your Ike-daydreams to your friends? Hilarious.

Ike is awesome. People that can't spend fifteen minutes without drooling all over him are not.
Okay, that was pretty harhs of me. Maybe he just thought Fire Emblem is a good game and thus should make for a good RPG. Mistakes happen.
Still, it's pretty funny.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In a freeform RP I was playing, my team was fighting a super-tough monster and getting our asses kicked. Suddenly, an NPC character appears, complete with overblown speeches, insanely overpowered equipment to put even the most badass PCs to shame, and a theme song. He then proceeds to blast the monster to smithereens in one shot, like any good Marty Stu DMPC would.

Then the monster calmly reassembles itself, beats the crap out of him, and blows up our base.

Since it was the same DM playing both, it was less "lol failure" and more him having some fun before a big dramatic moment and making the loss all the more crushing, since we were destined to lose here anyway.

[AstralFire]

I must admit that when I intend for a character to be recurring, I may give them theme music.

The last time I did this, the party managed to nearly kill him where he stood, but a last-second complete tactical fail on the Jedi's part saved my hard work.

[T.G. Oskar]

This one is pretty awesome, since it was the first session of a second campaign for Eberron.

Basically, I was playing a Gnome Bard (I had tried Paladin and Ranger already, and wanted to surprise the DM who's a fan of Bards), along with a Human Sorcerer (and pimp, nonetheless, though the pimp part was actually a ruse because the women truly belonged to another person to whom the Sorc. was indebted), and a Dwarf Fighter serving to protect his homeland. So, we all meet in the Mror Holds (Eberron), make our sudden introductions, the dwarves are getting pretty much wiped out, so we assist.

I won't bother much with the introductions, so I'll go to the beefy part. At the end of the cavern we were in, we found a Wyvern (though, for all purposes we thought it was a real dragon), and our party had expended most of its resources. I had already used Inspire Courage earlier on, the Sorcerer had expended his attack spells and was now forced to fight with the crossbow, and the Fighter had most of his hit points down. So, pretty much we would have been killed had things gone wrong.

So, we engage into battle, promptly start getting our posies handed to us, when all of a sudden, from the sky and unexpectedly, a mysterious figure with a gleaming sword (a Soulknife) lunges at the Wyvern, and pretty much attempts to aid us.

In no short order: the Soulknife misses, the Wyvern went next, the Wyvern pretty much strikes true, and auto-kills the Soulknife in ONE HIT. Everybody was like "damn", except the Sorcerer's player since he likes to smack-talk, and badmouthes the DM. So, we were pretty much screwed...

...except that two criticals later, we had slain a Wyvern (a less powerful Wyvern, tho) and we had a dead Soulknife nearby. One was my Bard striking true with a crossbow. The other was the Fighter striking twice, hoarding one of the crits, while dual-wielding (since he had Two-Weapon Fighting and was going for Tempest)

[BRC]

Our group has a tradition of not using DMPC's. Instead, whenever one would show up, we hand the character sheet to one of the players, usually the one whose character is the least complicated to play (Like, for example, if the bard is just going to sit there a music every round, they get to control Sir Guestalot). These DMPC's are often the same level as the rest of the party.

The general opinion is, never let a DM controlled character do anything the PC's should be doing.

[Xallace]

Xallace, I gotta ask. Do you intentionally seek out these terrible games, or do you just have a hard time saying 'no'?

Neither; I'm one of the only consistent DMs in my game groups, so I tend to jump at the chance to actually be a PC once in a while. That said, I should probably choose my battles more carefully. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Which, looking back, I guess makes it the second one.


Xallace... Wow that entire story was bad from the get go. The Fire Emblem games are one of my favorite game series but I couldn't even imagine trying to wedge a campaign into any of them. Especially not next to freaking Ike who is pretty ridiculous in the game.

Xallace, that is a hilarious story!
I have seen some serious fangasming concerning Ike (because, let's face it, the guy draws fanboys and -girls like Jesus himself), but making an entire RPG campaign just because you want to spend the evenings spreading your Ike-daydreams to your friends? Hilarious.

Heh, yeah. We were so far into that DM's nerd wet dreams that I was surprised he didn't re-name Ike after himself.

[Gralamin]

The moment an NPC becomes a DMPC, it's already a failure. :smallwink:

You know, I've always wondered about this attitude. I've played with and used DMPCs without trouble. As long as the DM Doesn't give a DMPC any advantage over normal players, Whats the problem? As long as the DMPC isn't clearly the main character, as long as the story goes around the PCs themselves, then it works fine.

In other words, with a mature DM, it can work. The fact so many are vehemently opposed to them makes me wonder. Is it a problem with maturity? Is it just one bad experience going to peoples head? :smallconfused:

[Doc Roc]

I loathe DMPCs, and will kill my own DMPCs whenever I can. I'll also murder other DMPCs given half a chance. I've taken over cities I wasn't supposed to, diplomacied my way past guards that were intended to be scenery, and generally laid new railroad track whenever I could.

The general reason for the attitude is that DMPC isn't a term that refers to well-played NPCs in your party. It's about huge plot critical characters with recurring roles, tremendous power, and a story of their own that you're comin' with or you die. Intrusive Gandalfing, if you will.

[sofawall]

I take pleasure in killing anyone who's bending the rules just a bit too far, and any and all DMPCs. For a while, we had a 6 person party with 4 DMPCs. We all talked about while the DM was out of the room, then we all just killed the DMPCs and went about our business.

[Woodsman]

Quoted for truth. I have yet to see one "DMPC" who was not a Deux Ex Machina or a ridiculous self-insert.

I have one, actually. Literally, he's there to heal the party (nobody wanted to be the cleric) and aid in combat when needed (which is less frequent than I had first imagined), and best of all, he barely ever talks.

I'd like to call him a success as a DMPC, but that's just me talking.

[Jade_Tarem]

Tidesinger is correct. The term "DMPC" has come to mean implicitly that the DM has inserted a Mary-Sue self-insert character into your party, who will likely steal the spotlight as well as be too friggin' rad to bow to the whims of such unimportant people as the PCs.

An NPC that travels with the group will likely offer occasional aid or information out of combat, and in combat will cast buff spells or attack enemies every now and then. A DMPC will very obviously be the most special and awesome person in the group, and you will know it because he can take every encounter singlehandedly and because the Sephiroth song plays in the background whenever he's doing something that's more important than what the PCs are doing, which is all the time.

You can tell that an NPC in the party has become a DMPC when you realize that the DMPC is not helping the players, the players are helping him.

[Piedmon_Sama]

I've never had a DMPC "fail," in the sense that the players resented him. And I've had an NPC (or several) follow or join the party in just about every campaign I've run, so I must be doing something right.


If anything, my players tend to cling to the apron-strings of powerful NPCs far too much. :smallannoyed:

[Doc Roc]

scrub a dub dub

[Gralamin]

Tidesinger is correct. The term "DMPC" has come to mean implicitly that the DM has inserted a Mary-Sue self-insert character into your party, who will likely steal the spotlight as well as be too friggin' rad to bow to the whims of such unimportant people as the PCs.

An NPC that travels with the group will likely offer occasional aid or information out of combat, and in combat will cast buff spells or attack enemies every now and then. A DMPC will very obviously be the most special and awesome person in the group, and you will know it because he can take every encounter singlehandedly and because the Sephiroth song plays in the background whenever he's doing something that's more important than what the PCs are doing, which is all the time.

You can tell that an NPC in the party has become a DMPC when you realize that the DMPC is not helping the players, the players are helping him.

We already have a word for these characters, Mary Sues. Do we really need to make DMPC into one for it? A DMPC is a PC played by a DM. Thats it, and all it should be. Besides, there is nothing that really limits this to DMs, Players can quite easily create Mary Sues as long as the DM doesn't stop them.

[Doc Roc]

I thought we had a word for that? Wasn't it NPC?
::gently sardonic::

[Gralamin]

I thought we had a word for that? Wasn't it NPC?
::gently sardonic::

NPC, you mean every other character in the story? :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

A DMPC is not an NPC that happens to hang around with the party.

It is the DM's PC - hence the name! It is the DM's personal character in the story, which is not a good idea if you also control the story.

There is nothing wrong with making a few NPCs hang out with the PCs. In fact it can help cement willing suspension of disbelief if a few party mates aren't in the party just because they have "PC" stamped on their foreheads.

The problem is that, if the DM has a particular emotional investment in a character, bad things happen.

[AstralFire]

For me, a DMPC is how Yuki put it. This is not necessarily a Mary Sue and can be done well; however, most DMs (myself included) can't do it well. I know just from how I make character creation that I will turn them into an overpowered Mary Sue if I keep them around too long in the creation stage - I constantly bend the rules for myself in little ways, slowly creeping up in the Munchkin Levels until I look at the character with deep shame at myself and bring it all down to proper levels right before the game starts.

I worry if I make a DMPC, I will not have the last step. So I just don't risk it.

[Thane of Fife]

In the campaign I most recently ran, I kept trying to introduce NPCs for use as PC henchmen, with the idea that the players would take them over. But they never would, and they inevitably would drag these people along with them anyway.

Two of them I settled down to help watch out for the PCs' castle while they traveled. One was so loathed that I got to throw him off a bridge and feed him to the zombies. The other two were, I suppose, the most interesting, one being the queen's younger daughter who was apprenticed to the PC illusionist and was so pathetic that she was generally used as a wand of Detect Magic. The other was the first introduced, intended as a love interest for one PC (which worked). She generally functioned as an extra action for the PCs (Wait! Alara hasn't gone yet!), a plot hook (the dragon swoops down and flies off with your partner clasped in his talons), and an emergency secret door finder.

Anyway, the story:

The PCs are trying to fend off an undead invasion. Things are going fairly smoothly, the last bit is to fight off the shadow dragon who was serving as the army leader's mount. She rolled a 1 with her crossbow, and accidentally shot another party member. Minimal damage (it was only a hand crossbow), and I think he saved against the poison, but an amusing failure nonetheless.

[F.H. Zebedee]

DMPCs aren't all bad. I have a small group (3 with one frequently absent) so, often, we're missing party roles.

I tend to fill in with various "Support" characters from groups that are allied to the heroes, such as a dedicated healer, or a character who's really good at "Aid Another" and getting into place to give PCs flanking.

Well, that, and I "cheat" by checking the monster stats to make sure that my PCs won't kill or maim any non-mook enemies. I usually make 'em go after enemies that are slightly out of kill range, making it easier for the heroes to go burning through.

The PCs should be the stars, but there's not much issue with DMPCs being orbitting bodies. (Of course, DMPC and NPC have a thin line between the two, sooo...)

[The Gilded Duke]

All this talk is making me want to run a short game based around a Mary Sue DMPC.

Have there be the Gilded Duke, a great hero who fights with a golden mask over his face. And the PCs would be his squires.

Except that the Gilded Duke would be a core only unoptimized single class bard two levels under the PCs, where the PCs could use TOB, Psionics, whatever. The goal of the game is to keep the Duke alive. And the Duke is in charge, but players could just manipulate him with diplomacy and bluff, charm person, dominate person etc.

Have it be a dungeon crawl with him shouting out Leyroy Jenkins style.

[cfalcon]

The problem is that, if the DM has a particular emotional investment in a character, bad things happen.

This is it in a nutshell.

Part of the issue is that DMPCs arise when the DM really wants to be a player, and is NOT willing to let that go- to the point that they insert an intrusive NPC that behaves like, or is more important than, the player.

DMPC story number 1: Two PCs. I rolled a half-dragon wizard (this was 2ed). The DM 100% refused my request to play a copper half dragon (the rules were for gold, silver, and bronze), so I went with bronze. My proposed copper rules were pretty tame- after all, of the ones listed, the power level is pretty much what you expect, so copper was even lower. The other player rolled some kind of ogre-mage fighter, a character that was way crazy power level wise, and was going to have more magic than my wizard until probably about 6th level. Shortly after we began, we were introduced to some crazy NPC- this red haired, green eyed beauty of a 20th level something. Immediately we shared glances- the DM was all about chicks that looked JUST LIKE THAT and here was one as THE MOST IMPORTANT AND UBER NPC EVAR. My plan was, play along with the session and then tell the DM after, you need to get this girl the hell out of the story, and also? WIERD! The other player, he was a little more direct. First, when the DM went to take a leak, he immediately zinged around the table and went crosseyed- this fictional girl was all 25s, every stat. We were gaming with his fantasy girlfriend as a DMPC. He immediately had his ogre-mage try to kill her, which obviously did not work, and the campaign ended after a grand total of about two hours. After that the DM was relegated back to a player spot.


DMPC Story number 2:
The other player in the previous story pretty much *always* inserts a DMPC into his games, which are usually low in player numbers. He doesn't usually screw up their power level too much (he's pretty tame given that he *always* does it), but one game over winter he offered to run a quick campaign, and I of course was in as a player (mostly I DM). I went fighter->weaponmaster, one of my friends went straight fighter, we had someone roll some kind of caster (I forget which kind), and the DMPC was this class he was experimenting with he called "mutant", basically some kind of melee psion that had some interesting mechanics we never got to really see. What we DID see was that he did a great deal of damage most of the time. My mercurial greatsword was able to crit past his damage in a couple fights, leading to the end boss wearing two suits of armor (the armor bonuses stacked so that I could only connect on a 17 or better- the pure fighter had enchanted his weapons with just +s instead of extra tricks, so he could connect on 14 or better, and he was entirely immune to critical hits). Obviously our best sustained damage (and some healing) came from the mutant paying whatever points or shuffling whatever runes or whatever it is that made him able to blast energy and such.

There's more, but generally- you shouldn't have a NPC that you are attached to as a DM. You shouldn't have a PC, or it becomes a possible problem. Know your role! The DM is the CPU. You run the game for everyone, if you have your own character it's just masturbatory and you *know* it.

[Darcand]

All this talk is making me want to run a short game based around a Mary Sue DMPC.

Have there be the Gilded Duke, a great hero who fights with a golden mask over his face. And the PCs would be his squires.

Except that the Gilded Duke would be a core only unoptimized single class bard two levels under the PCs, where the PCs could use TOB, Psionics, whatever. The goal of the game is to keep the Duke alive. And the Duke is in charge, but players could just manipulate him with diplomacy and bluff, charm person, dominate person etc.

Have it be a dungeon crawl with him shouting out Leyroy Jenkins style.

Maybe not a Bard, but a low low wisdom score and nothing but levels in Aristocrat! I love it!

My worst DMPC experiance was storming an orc fort. We crept up to it, came up with a complex plan about how the dwarf fighter and cleric (myself) could hold a choke point with the DMPC fighter covering our flank so that the ranger and mage could rain hell on the massed orcs.

On the first round the DMPC ran by us and kicked in the door, by the third orcs were swarming around him to die against his great cleave attacks while the rest of us tried to squeeze through the choke point we planned on defending.

[FoE]

My worst DMPC experiance was storming an orc fort. We crept up to it, came up with a complex plan about how the dwarf fighter and cleric (myself) could hold a choke point with the DMPC fighter covering our flank so that the ranger and mage could rain hell on the massed orcs.

On the first round the DMPC ran by us and kicked in the door, by the third orcs were swarming around him to die against his great cleave attacks while the rest of us tried to squeeze through the choke point we planned on defending.

Why not just turn tail and leave the idiot to his fate?

Sounds like he'd either go down fighting or clear out the fort for you.

[Friv]

All this talk is making me want to run a short game based around a Mary Sue DMPC.

Have there be the Gilded Duke, a great hero who fights with a golden mask over his face. And the PCs would be his squires.

Except that the Gilded Duke would be a core only unoptimized single class bard two levels under the PCs, where the PCs could use TOB, Psionics, whatever. The goal of the game is to keep the Duke alive. And the Duke is in charge, but players could just manipulate him with diplomacy and bluff, charm person, dominate person etc.

Have it be a dungeon crawl with him shouting out Leyroy Jenkins style.

I would play it.

[Willfor]

It's not directly related to the topic (replace "DMPC Failures" with "DMPCing a failure") but I have a story at least.

We were about half a year into a fairly long term campaign (IRC based with Maptool), when we had a new guy join up. The party had already really fallen into a sort-of balance, and this new guy's character was intended to shake up this balance. Unfortunately, since all of the characters were pretty much in a situation where the outside world was not on the best of terms with them, this character did very little to endear themselves to them. We actually almost ended up killing him in his introduction. Relations never really recovered from there.

The player stayed around a while, but eventually had to stop playing. Unfortunately, the DM had put plot important things into his backstory! Since we had all basically been acting hostile towards the character from the start, the DM pretty much kept this hostility going with us, and managed to keep playing the character like the player had.

... That's pretty much it.

[Lord_Gareth]

What about intentionally creating a DMPC to fail...and finding that it's succeding past your worst nightmares?

I'm currently running a very, VERY high-end epic game (level 48 party, six players), which I intended to turn into an ironically-lower-powered god game later on. The plan was for the party to stop an LE wizard who was attempting to annihilate existence as a - wait for it - scientific experiment. This wizard, Endeca, is my DMPC, and I have been running her in solo games with myself as she runs about putting her plans into action. She's actually come very, very close to dying several times in the name of her preparations.

Now, in theory, the party would save Grayhawk from her and be given godhood as a reward.

Instead, she has obliterated six Prime Material planes, hurled the Abyss into Mechanus, plunged the Nine Hells into civil war, and is currently slaughtering my incredibly-incompetent party. She's an evoker, for God's sake. I wasn't even TRYING. But it's looking like the party - all seven levels above her, mind - is about to die a horrible, screaming death.

I think next time, I'll just run Myth Drannor.

[Yuki Akuma]

An epic-level wizard is still an epic-level wizard, no matter what her speciality is.

At epic levels, spellcasters - and especially wizards - win at everything ever. Before they even happen, sometimes.

[Woodsman]

Instead, she has obliterated six Prime Material planes, hurled the Abyss into Mechanus, plunged the Nine Hells into civil war, and is currently slaughtering my incredibly-incompetent party. She's an evoker, for God's sake. I wasn't even TRYING. But it's looking like the party - all seven levels above her, mind - is about to die a horrible, screaming death.

Sounds more like a PC failure than a DMPC failure.

[mistformsquirrl]

For me, a DMPC is how Yuki put it. This is not necessarily a Mary Sue and can be done well; however, most DMs (myself included) can't do it well. I know just from how I make character creation that I will turn them into an overpowered Mary Sue if I keep them around too long in the creation stage - I constantly bend the rules for myself in little ways, slowly creeping up in the Munchkin Levels until I look at the character with deep shame at myself and bring it all down to proper levels right before the game starts.

I worry if I make a DMPC, I will not have the last step. So I just don't risk it.

Agreed. I used to have this same problem; and actually ruined 2 campaigns by poor DMPC usage <x.x> (I have since learned my lesson <_ _> /shame)

My solution came from a combination of anime-watching and literature classes <@_@>;; (Sounds strange, but it makes sense.)

The idea being that heroes need good supporting characters in order to prosper. A supporting character that's a DMPC can, done right, be satisfying for both DM and players.

I can summarize my philosophy best like this (Obviously all of the below is just my opinion <,<):

You are not Link - you are Navi; the annoying fairie. You aren't there to fight (that's the PC's job); you're there to poke, prod, cajole, and maybe use a few beneficial spells. You provide a tutorial on how to ride a horse or use a hookshot; not trash the enemies and elevate yourself to godlike status. Done right, at the end of the campaign people might remember you fondly (or irascibly) - but you won't be much more than a minor blip on the radar.

The PCs should keep their spotlight in all but the rarest circumstances, and those circumstances they lose it should be for a real NPC*, not a DMPC.

In other words: A good DMPC will probably be looked at either as a lovable mascot, or an annoying but harmless headache.

On a practical level, this has actually been a good thing. It means my DMPCs let me pursue things that simply wouldn't work as a character in a normal campaign, because said character would be generally useless for the party.

So instead I play the awakened animal companion. Or the fairie guide. Or the tag-a-long kid with no where better to go. Or Mokona (http://media.photobucket.com/image/Mokona/Kiyoko_Otani/Mokona.jpg).

I still consider them DMPCs, because they very much are "my" character; more so than a normal NPC ever could be. By having them be generally subordinate to the other characters, I have two benefits:

1) The PCs don't feel upstaged. After all, I'm not ripping through hordes of enemies, shooting fireballs at them, or locking them down like a Batman wizard. I'm occasionally shooting healing rays, or getting my head stuck in someone's travel canteen >.> I might even kick the bad guys in the shins once in awhile; but at no point will I do anything that leaves the PCs feeling weaker than me.

2) It allows minor characters (awakened animal companions, unusually intelligent paladin mounts) to really have their own personalities beyond just "the DM is making this up on the spot because he doesn't really care what you say to your dumb Unicorn mount."

Instead I get invested in said companion or mount and actually get to really bring out some personality for them.

All of the above said, not every campaign should have a DMPC even in this form. It's really up to the tone of the campaign and the type of story being told as to whether it's at all appropriate.

*An NPC is a plot device as much as they are a character. They have a personality, wants and needs, etc... yes; but most are there to advance the plot in some way, however big or small. Upstaging the PCs with a real NPC should be a rarity; used mostly to convey "Woah" factor. Said NPC should then probably fade away/go back to what they were doing. Palling them around with the PCs is guaranteed trouble >.<

That's my philosophy on it anyway. >.>

[Ormur]

Heh, maybe I should purposefully make a ridiculously awesome and annoying DMPC that runs straight into an overpowered encounter and gets his head cut of while the PC's watch.

[Assassin89]

Not really a failure, but more of an oversight. My DM once created a "luck bard" as a cohort for my character, but the bard had no ranks in perform whatsoever.

[Irreverent Fool]

DMPCs can work really well in PbP games, when the party isnt aware its a DMPC. They can be useful for suggesting things the players miss. Stuff like "hey guys, I think I figured out the riddle" or "maybe that wizard we met in that other town can help us"

Also, DMPCs are useful for starting a campaign. You can kill off a character in the party without annoying a player, to give them a motive to hunt down the BBEG/expose the corrupt mayor/whatever

DMPCs are not useful in a campaign. What you described is a friendly NPC.

A DMPC is "the DM's PC". That is to say, it is a character the DM made and wants to play but can't because he is the DM. So he plays it anyway. Rarely, this will be because a group is small and the even-handed DM keeps his PC out of the limelight to prevent the players from becoming jealous or feeling like the DM is simply sitting there playing with himself while the others watch (which he technically is). More often, a DMPC occurs in a group of younger or inexperienced players as power-trip. Thinking his concept is awesome, the DM grants his pet character many more levels, many more powerful items, or simply no actually written stats and any power that feels to him appropriate at the time. Inevitably, this character is also used to make sure elements of the DM's pet plot come to pass, without regard for character interaction -- or -- enforcing specific actions from the characters. While these tactics can make a climactic battle with a BBEG exciting if used sparingly (hm, the BBEG almost went down in one round... lets give him a ring of fire immunity), using them as a character in a group of lower-level rules-bound characters has the effect of making everyone hate the DM, the game, and themselves.

People who put up with it either think this is the way the game is meant to be played or are simply desperate enough for a good PnP RPG that they'll suffer through almost anything just for a potential opportunity to play a character.

A DM who plays a well-thought-out character and ally of the party has created an NPC. A DM who is telling a story about superman and his newfound immunity to kryptonite is playing a DMPC.

Due to fear of overshadowing my players and my abject revulsion to DMPCs, I occasionally make supposedly-competent NPCs who are completely inept in combat. The most memorable is a recurring rival fighter/sorcerer named Red. Unfortunately, though the concept looked good on paper, he has few options in a fight and is notoriously useless.

We've sort of got a Team Rocket thing going on here since the only thing he's good at is running away. The players love it, so they haven't killed him yet. :smallbiggrin:

obnoxious
sig

[Tyrmatt]

I've only run one "DMPC" and I basically used her as a tutorial drone to teach a group of new players how combat worked.

The players had joined up as part of a local militia to rout some kobolds from an outlying farming community and I cribbed off one of Rich's gaming articles for the female soldier. She demonstrated how the characters should fight, cast spells and make skill checks. Once the first fight was over, she split up from the PCs and they had a few encounters with kobolds then rejoined her for the boss battle. After they won against the kobolds the BBEG for the campaign, a lich wizard, showed up and let her take a few swipes at him before killing her effortlessly. The PCs fled, safe in the knowledge that this wasn't a fight they could win because their high powered backup just got royally owned.

The groups fighter took her death rather personally as it was in his backstory that she had trained him. Sadly the campaign never got to the point where they faced the lich in battle so his vengeance was never slaked :(

I like to think this is the way DMPCs should be run. Quickly, informationally and then killed brutally in front of the party while they watch helplessly.

[AstralFire]

You never know when party members take strange likings into their head for an NPC and will do all they can to protect it.

One of the NPCs showed up with a goat because she got bored waiting for them. For the next five sessions, the game was all about the goat. A party member died on their Amplified Aquatic Apparatus (homebrew sub improvement of Kwalish's Apparatus of the Crab) and they left her body there on the imploding vehicle and instead made an underwater insertion into the cultist city... carrying the goat.

The goat was supposed to be used in curry.

[ghost_warlock]

Two DMPC fails in one campaign:

1) DMPC cleric. Out of the party, he was the only one to fail the Jump check over a magical portal/pit and wound up falling into the Nine Hells. When the party tried to retrieve him, all they got back was a burned arm. :smalleek:

2) DMPC paladin. Invulnerable. Charged down a flight of stairs in a dungeon and right through a brick wall at the bottom...without 'skipping a beat' or being even suffering minor bruising or scratches. He later seduced and married the daughter of the king and was set up to become king himself when the campaign abruptly ended. :smallsigh:

[adanedhel9]

Sidestepping the whole "DMPCs are bad" issue, I've had a several Very Important NPCs tag along with the group I currently run. Mostly this has been uneventful, but two particular "failures" (not necessarily entirely on the VINPC's part) come to mind:

VINPC1 is doomed. I've got a situation set up where he's nearly certain to die (telekenisis over a 120 ft. deep pit with a lightning bolt trap half-way down... and he's only 7th level). I would be open to the PCs finding a way to save him in this particular instance, but he's going to die one way or the other, eventually.

Through a combination of magic items, some nice Jump rolls, and a lot of guts, the PCs do manage to save him, although he's hanging onto the wall 30 ft. down the pit. The PCs outside the pit start looting corpses, and the one PC who's in the pit with the VINPC quickly climbs out to take a look... leaving the VINPC, a gnome in full plate who's not trained in Climb at all and has no climbing equipment, to make his own way out of the hole. Eventually he rolls a -2 on his Climb check and falls to his death.

VINPC2 is supposed to be just as much a part of one fight as the enemies. He's a Frenzied Berserker with some homebrew stuff that makes him even more dangerous as an ally than as an opponent. But the party, following some instinct, kept him so well protected that his frenzy never triggered. And he never rolled higher than a 3 on his attack rolls, so he managed to not even do any damage either. He might as well have not been there, and the encounter wasn't nearly as fun as I was hoping.

[Melamoto]

Stuff about bad DMPCs

I am currently running a game with a DMPC in it; it is a Gestalt game with 2 people, neither of which have good skills or healing capabilities. The DMPC is, surprise surprise, a Cleric//Rogue. He never takes glory for himself, and is often hiding or scouting. He is paranoid, so he won't do anything in the party other than heal, help with traps and dungeoneering, and occasionally talking (Although I try to avoid that whenever possible, unless he is a translator for the party).
And, just in case I had a subliminal power trip, I purposefully made him less powerful than the other 2, and I intend to kill him off if I ever get a new player in the group who will take up his role of healing and possible skills.

[Indon]

I thought we had a word for that? Wasn't it NPC?
::gently sardonic::

I don't think so. I feel a DMPC is simply a DM character who is run like a PC would be.

To draw an example from a different recent thread:

An NPC Wizard gains power in the arcane art through diligent study and research, and is run by the DM.

A PC Wizard gains power in the arcane art through wacky adventures, and is run by a player.

A DMPC Wizard gains power in the arcane art through wacky adventures, and is run by the DM.

I've got an upcoming game that looks like it'll have just 3 players. I'm probably going to run a DMPC to balance out the party and help mentor the group (since all three will be new players to the system).

[Kylarra]

I don't think so. I feel a DMPC is simply a DM character who is run like a PC would be.

To draw an example from a different recent thread:

An NPC Wizard gains power in the arcane art through diligent study and research, and is run by the DM.

A PC Wizard gains power in the arcane art through wacky adventures, and is run by a player.

A DMPC Wizard gains power in the arcane art through wacky adventures, and is run by the DM.

I've got an upcoming game that looks like it'll have just 3 players. I'm probably going to run a DMPC to balance out the party and help mentor the group (since all three will be new players to the system).That only makes sense if you assume that your group of PCs is the only group of adventurers in the world. Otherwise, [NPC] adventuring wizards should exist, and thus a wizard (or cleric or skillmonkey) that tags along to fill in a missing group is not necessarily a DMPC.