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Epinephrine
2009-07-28, 09:02 AM
So, I've got a dragon in an adventure.

It's a black dragon, and they tend to be weak; I'm a little worried that the party (they'll be 11th level I suspect when they face it) will trounce it.

The party (Pathfinder classes, had to tweak the favoured soul to have it line up with Pathfinder a bit better) are an 11th level monk, 11th level warblade, 11th level bard, and a warlock/favoured soul(modified)/eldritch disciple.

The dragon is an adult with some small bonuses, they have it listed as CR 13, it's meant to be a tough opponent, but I don't see it as being that deadly. The group have really solid saves, they'll know to prep against acid, and honestly, 12d4 damage isn't much from a breath weapon - 26 on avergae, which can be absorbed by resist energy. The way the dragon is specced, it'd do best landing and fighting them up close, which is the opposite of how one wants to play a dragon. The one thing it has that may help is that its breath is toxic, and causes strength damage on a faied fort save (DC 23), but that's unlikely to make a huge difference to the dwarven warblade, the monk is immune to poison, the bard has Ruin Delver's Fortune (and can thus get immunity to poison as an immediate action), and the Eldritch Disciple has solid saves and can shift her luck bonus into Fortitude if necessary.

The dragon's feats, as listed, are Flyby Attack (nice), Improved Natural Armour (umm, crap), Improved Natural Attack (Bite) (crap), Multiattack (ok, I guess), Power Attack (handy! Turn some of that attack bonus into damage!), Weapon Focus (Bite) (crap!), Wingover (ok for maneuverability, I guess).

I'd like to ensure that it's a tough battle, but that they have a good chance if they play it smart. How much tweaking should I do? I was looking at some metabreath stuff, and thinking that at a minimum I'd like to give her a sorcerer level, to get Scintillating Scales on her, otherwise she's just too vulnerable to ranged touch attacks. I know dragon's tend to be under CRed, and I don't want to smash them to pieces - at the same time, it should be a real threat, something that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.

The party are very good at working together; the favoured soul has Mass Conviction as well as Recitation, the bard can do a decent Inspire Courage and stack a Haste, etc. on top, and the warblade and monk do some pretty solid flanking shenanigans.

So - any advice on a few nice tweaks to the dragon? Some tail sweeping stuff? Maximise breath? I'll happily trade in the 3 less useful feats for some nicer ones, and adding a sorcerer level seems smart.

AslanCross
2009-07-28, 09:12 AM
Black dragons have water breathing. Use this to your advantage.

My first campaign once had the PCs slogging through a swamp. A black dragon was hiding with its eyes closed in the nearby pond, looking rather like a large rotting log. It was using its Blindsense to detect them as they came by. It sprang up and blasted them with its breath weapon for its surprise round, and then took off the next turn.

Honestly, don't worry about changing feats. Metabreath feats are probably at the higher end of the power spectrum, but things like Awesome Blow are pretty cool and extremely scary for PCs. Flyby attack + Awesome Blow = ouch.

I always have the dragon know Scintillating Scales, but that's only as a precaution against Shivering Cheese.

Also, regarding flanking: DO NOT LAND THE DRAGON. Keep him in the air.


If the dragon is getting bombarded with ranged attacks in the air, have it dive underwater (I hope the encounter includes water). I don't know if Pathfinder still uses the same rules, but see the aquatic combat rules here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm)

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-28, 09:18 AM
feats: 5x roll with it = DR 10/-
feats: 5x awaken SR = SR 10+HD.
Add a couple of flaws to afford it.

That should do it.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 09:24 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#snatch

Melee tilted party. Very melee tilted party. Engage in an overgrown swamp that limits visibility, have the dragon regularly snatch one of the melee party members and toss them far away. Won't hurt too much, but it certainly makes 'gang up and pour it on' hard.

Don't land the dragon.

Epinephrine
2009-07-28, 09:28 AM
Black dragons have water breathing. Use this to your advantage.

...

Also, regarding flanking: DO NOT LAND THE DRAGON. Keep him in the air.

If the dragon is getting bombarded with ranged attacks in the air, have it dive underwater (I hope the encounter includes water).

No water - the dragon has cornered a wizard/sage friend of the party in a tomb on a hillside. The wizard can't teleport out (not high enough level), and the party have to try to rescue him. Dragon has good reasons to want the party dead, and the sage uncovered information about the plot, and thus the dragon was dispatched to kill him. Dragon is perfectly happy to wait the wizard out, but can't really squeeze in after him.

Plot has the dragon hiding a short ways off, having used some Alarm spells to
ensure it knows of approaches while sleeping, and keeping alert while awake, as it figures the adventurers might return to rescue the sage. If it detects the party, it's meant to use the hill to block its approach, trying to surprise them.

Of course, it's typical bad-guy fare - send someone out who isn't quite competent enough to get the job done. Why not send more? Well, it's a troublesome sage and a few low-level adventurers, right? They were only about 5th-6th level when he heard of them ruining one of their schemes, adult dragon should easily eat them all.

Dragon is only Large, so can't take Snatch. Awesome Blow could be fun for preventing easy flanks, knocking her attackers sprawling away if forced to land (Undeniable Gravity, Hesitate, Slow - and I'm assuming that they'll get by the dragon's saves eventually, since they'll probably try to debuff with the warlock's blasts and soe bardic spells). Maybe I'll take Large and in Charge, to stop them from easily closing with it (they'll end up using their anklets of translocation, but that's only going to work a couple of times).

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 09:31 AM
You can still do the overgrown bit easily with the dragon's SLAs, as they are instant (or permanent, I forget which.)

The Dark Fiddler
2009-07-28, 09:40 AM
Unless they know 100% that it's a black dragon, a way to make it more challenging, if you wanted to go this route, would be to make it so that they have misinformation. What's that? You're resiting Acid? Too bad it's actually a Red Dragon.

Of course, this might make them very angry (understandable). You could always make it older if you wanted to.

Note: I'm trying to give information that others haven't yet. These likely aren't the best answers, but those have likely already been given.

EDIT: And I just read your explanation and realized my suggestions are both invalid. Oh well.

AslanCross
2009-07-28, 09:43 AM
Keep to the air, then. Blanket the area with the dragon's darkness (Sp); it has a larger radius than the regular darkness spell. The concealment will still be frustrating.

Use Flyby Attack to strafe with your breath weapon (that doesn't require a concealment roll and the dragon can pinpoint them with Blindsense anyway). Give the dragon Grease. That should also be more than a little annoying.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 09:46 AM
Oh, darn it. And here I was all "HURRAY, I managed to positively contribute to a thread about monsters."

Well. Hmm. The knockdown feat from 3.0 Sword and Fist is loads of fun. Especially if the Eldritch Disciple makes the mistake of getting in close at any point for any reason.

jmbrown
2009-07-28, 09:48 AM
No water - the dragon has cornered a wizard/sage friend of the party in a tomb on a hillside. The wizard can't teleport out (not high enough level), and the party have to try to rescue him. Dragon has good reasons to want the party dead, and the sage uncovered information about the plot, and thus the dragon was dispatched to kill him. Dragon is perfectly happy to wait the wizard out, but can't really squeeze in after him.

Plot has the dragon hiding a short ways off, having used some Alarm spells to
ensure it knows of approaches while sleeping, and keeping alert while awake, as it figures the adventurers might return to rescue the sage. If it detects the party, it's meant to use the hill to block its approach, trying to surprise them.

Of course, it's typical bad-guy fare - send someone out who isn't quite competent enough to get the job done. Why not send more? Well, it's a troublesome sage and a few low-level adventurers, right? They were only about 5th-6th level when he heard of them ruining one of their schemes, adult dragon should easily eat them all.

Dragon is only Large, so can't take Snatch. Awesome Blow could be fun for preventing easy flanks, knocking his attackers sprawling away if forced to land (Undeniable Gravity, Hesitate, Slow - and I'm assuming that they'll get by the dragon's saves eventually, since they'll probably try to debuff with the warlock's blasts and soe bardic spells). Maybe I'll take Large and in Charge, to stop them from easily closing with it (they'll end up using their anklets of translocation, but that's only going to work a couple of times).

It doesn't have to be a battle to the death. Have the dragon test the party's strength but once he gets down to 75% health he runs to recharge his breath. Before the party can get their bearings he swoops down again, blasts them, full power attacks, flies away again.

Unless the party has a scroll of teleport or something the dragon should harass them until they're too weak to fight back. They shouldn't be able to break camp without fear the dragon is stalking from behind.

Epinephrine
2009-07-28, 10:18 AM
It doesn't have to be a battle to the death. Have the dragon test the party's strength but once he gets down to 75% health he runs to recharge his breath. Before the party can get their bearings he swoops down again, blasts them, full power attacks, flies away again.

Unless the party has a scroll of teleport or something the dragon should harass them until they're too weak to fight back. They shouldn't be able to break camp without fear the dragon is stalking from behind.

I actually like the idea of using darkness - but these characters will ignore that pretty much; Fog Cloud though has a nice long duration, and blocks their darkvision while allowing the dragon's blindsense.

The dragon really doesn't want the wizard freed, though it will back off if it has to (if it can).
It's been ordered here by a dracolich, it really doesn't want to fail an "easy" assignment

The problem (from its perspective, though it doesn't know this) is that the battle will shift very suddenly - if it fails a save against Undeniable Gravity it can't fly for 11 minutes. That pretty much kills it, as it'll end up in melee. Sure, it can laugh off most of the other effects (entangle, slow - simply fly high, wait it out). Hesitate would be problematic; it requires a will save each round to be able to do more than take a move action; if entangled, this means that the dragon can't stay in the air without descending. They do have ways of trying to force the dragon down - and because they are saves, the dragon has to be wary about them. If it stays above close spell range, it can blast them from up high, but it likely won't do any damage - even on failed saves (unlikely), 12d4 acid breath is 30 damage on average (12*2.5), and resist energy provides 30 resistance at CL 11. It's very unlikely that I'd roll more than 40 damage ever on 12d4, and since they've got solid saves, most of the time it'll be no damage, with as much as 10 damage managing to get by if they fail a save and I roll 40 damage.

A few points may trickle through, but it'll fast become apparent that to succeed, it has to actually attack them. Say it strafes them a few times at ~70 foot altitude, and realises that it's accomplishing nothing. It can either let them into the tomb (bad, fails its mission), or it can engage them in melee (bad, that's their strong suit). Diving Charge, Awesome Blow, and Large and in Charge, combined with a fog cloud? Might be enough to make it dangerous? I could have it leave, but that's not much fun, and then they get to rescue the mage, and become even tougher (gaining the power of the items in the tomb, for example).

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 10:22 AM
Black dragons have water breathing. Use this to your advantage.

My first campaign once had the PCs slogging through a swamp. A black dragon was hiding with its eyes closed in the nearby pond, looking rather like a large rotting log. It was using its Blindsense to detect them as they came by. It sprang up and blasted them with its breath weapon for its surprise round, and then took off the next turn.

Honestly, don't worry about changing feats. Metabreath feats are probably at the higher end of the power spectrum, but things like Awesome Blow are pretty cool and extremely scary for PCs. Flyby attack + Awesome Blow = ouch.

I always have the dragon know Scintillating Scales, but that's only as a precaution against Shivering Cheese.

Also, regarding flanking: DO NOT LAND THE DRAGON. Keep him in the air.


If the dragon is getting bombarded with ranged attacks in the air, have it dive underwater (I hope the encounter includes water). I don't know if Pathfinder still uses the same rules, but see the aquatic combat rules here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm)

This sort of thing seems awesome. If you're in a swamp, you're on its own ground. Think Predator, only the stalking superbeing can breath acid and hide underwater and fly away when in trouble. Stalk them like animals, and teach them the true meaning of fear with an elusive foe that's never seen, only felt, as searing H2SO4 slides down their necks from behind. Hit and run them until they can't run, only walk, and shamble mindlessly through waist-deep water to their demises, dragged down beneath the murky peat to unseen and hideous demises.

In all seriousness, I stand by the words of others. They can't kill what they can't catch, and if this is the dragon's home, it just has to pick away at them with every scrap of knowledge, trick, trap, and lump of terrain on its side. This sounds like the perfect time to give them paranoia fuel - D&D survival horror.

EDIT: If (going by what you said) flight sounds risky, it could always take advantage of the water + long range of line breath and do a sort of jack in the box routine. Stick head an inch out of the water, snipe, vanish and retreat. Much harder to see than something in the air, too.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 10:24 AM
It's not the dragon's lair, Drakyn.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-07-28, 10:26 AM
I actually like the idea of using darkness - but these characters will ignore that pretty much; Fog Cloud though has a nice long duration, and blocks their darkvision while allowing the dragon's blindsense.

Darkvision doesn't work in Darkness produced darkness.

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 10:27 AM
Dang and sorry. If it's still a swamp, it's still got some good stuff going for it. I only just really noticed the metabreath considerations in the OP, and it seems like that'd be a good way to get around the massive resistances + saves problem. If you're playing hit and run, you can probably afford to wait four or more extra rounds per breath.

Epinephrine
2009-07-28, 10:41 AM
Thanks everyone, certainly stuff to think about. Didn't know that Darkvision doesn't pierce Darkness.

Drakyn - I was looking at metabreath (particularly Maximise) since it would allow the dragon to punch through the resist energy it'll doubtless face. I was a bit worried that that's a very powerful feat - on any tougher dragon it's absolutely brutal, but 48 damage is reasonable; 18 through on a failed save. I may just do that, and have it circle longer between strafes. If they catch on that it's trying to keep them from the tomb they can make a run for it, and the dragon's hand may be forced, but at least it'd allow it to get by their defenses (of course, they can heal up while it circles, but at least it's draining resources). I feel dirty using maximise metabreath, but it's about the only way to be threatening with its breath weapon.

I think the suggestion of 5x awaken SR is great, but a bit too much - they'd never land a spell on it, and that completely nerfs the warlock as well as the bard. I may see about working the feat in though, it'll oppose the Spell Penetration the bard took.

The reminder about using things like fog to obscure vision is great, and I had initially overlooked Awesome Blow - being able to knock them around will prevent too much flanking, if it needs to get close, and its reach combined with Large and in Charge will hold them from closing too easily.

Fixer
2009-07-28, 10:46 AM
Have it grapple with the -20 bonus to be able to grapple and still act as non-grappled. Then it can literally fly up with someone and drop them from whatever height it wishes. Use some enlargement effect if it needs some additional bonuses.

The metabreath spells are perfect in this situation. The players have prepped for acid? Start breathing cold instead.

Make the dragon actually BLOCK the exit for the wizard if the dragon needs to get away. Move a big honking rock in front of it or drop a bunch of trees.

Because you are using Pathfinder, have the dragon be a Pathfinder sorcerer 3rd level, and have it have its own special list of powers usable at-will like humanoid sorcerers can.


Black dragons are better hit-and-run sneaky types so this encounter is causing it to run against its strengths. If necessary, make it delay the players until nightfall, when it can hit-and-run during nighttime, when it can use all of its skills.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 10:47 AM
Have it grapple with the -20 bonus to be able to grapple and still act as non-grappled. Then it can literally fly up with someone and drop them from whatever height it wishes. Use some enlargement effect if it needs some additional bonuses.

This was my suggestion, but it's not big enough for the feat that grants Improved Grab.

Lamech
2009-07-28, 11:58 AM
Give it leadership! That will make the dragon tough.

If your really worried about spells you could give it a few ToB feats and IHS, or just a level of warblade if you want to be really funny. Hmm... I'm going to try build a dragon that can kill stuff dead. I'll give it a sorc level a 2 warblade levels and a barbarian level, the last two as non assosicated. A dragons main strength is its high stats lots of attacks and spellcasting buffs right?


Black dragon sorc 1 barbarian 1 warblade 2
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha (con was increased at twenty and I used the elite array.)
26 12 24 12 11 12

HP: 22d12+1d4+ 127hp (approx 281hp)

BaB +22

AC: 27 (I assume your taking the flaw that gives -1 AC. Its the anti-dodge

Initiative +1


Fort +23 Ref+12 Will+13

Feats: Flyby Attack (nice), Multiattack, Power Attack, Wingover, leap attack, shock trooper, awaken spell resistance*4 (take a couple flaws)

Speed: 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft. +0

Attacks: If you want to be really mean replace a claw and the longsword with a great sword and use RAW leap attack (6:1 damage BaB ratio)
Longsword +29/+24/+19/+14 1d8+8
Claw +27 1d8+4
Bite +27 2d6+8
2 Wings +27/+27 1d6+4
Tail +27 1d8+12

Skills: UMD 26 ranks (+27) Fun fact: familiars have all your skills.
Jump 8 ranks (you auto succeed on the ten foot jump.)
Hide 26 ranks (+27)
Move silently 26 (+27)
Listen 26 (+26
Spot (26) +26


Maneuvers: Punishing stance, Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Boost, Iron Heart Focus
The boost and the surge should help limit the amount of damage they can do to the save especially with the 19SR

Equitment: Attacks scroll for familiar, and buff scrolls for the dragon. Attack wands for familiar. Give the dragon a teleport scroll so it can escape. Longsword

Abilities:
SR 25
Breath Weapon 12d4 DC 28
Frightful Presence DC 22 Remember a shaken creature becomes frightened, and the dragon will be making a lot of attacks.
Water breathing
Spell like abilities darkness three a day
Immunity to Acid
Familiar: RavenFirst dragon ever made by me, so check it over...
I suggest opening with a shock trooper leap attack pounce. Each attack does +44 damage, although the AC will be non-existant after word. Try to get the dragon to use scrolls to buff it self up. The familiar should be using scrolls and wand to help.
Also for setting "mood" you can say there very little wild life. "Like a single bird", that way you will be 100% justified when the dragon knows they are coming. Alternatively you can describe all the wild life. Familiars a great fun.

Also do they have long ranged spells? If not, Wand of fireballs=dead party

P.S. If I understand correctly natural attacks and manufactured weapons interact by making all the natural attacks secondary right? You also might want to trade out a feat for maximize breath. Also if you want to be truly cruel stick an ally on top with a maxed ride skill (things like item familar and custom magic item) and have it negate most of the hits.

Drakyn
2009-07-28, 12:32 PM
First off, I'm an idiot for missing 3/4s of the important info on the situation (no water, dragon's trying to get at a guy in a tomb). I second Fixer's idea of the dragon blocking the tomb, only it might want to have it START that way (since it has an idea people might be coming to help, and it's waiting him out anyways). It'd mean it could still maintain a decent level of hit-and-sprint tactics without worrying that the second it gets out of sight the party might just make a run for its victim.

Epinephrine
2009-07-28, 12:55 PM
Hmm, I was going to leave the tomb unblocked, so that the sage inside would come out, trigger an alarm, and could be pounced on. If he doesn't emerge in a set period (maybe another 3-4 days), dragon would start worrying that maybe there IS another exit (or something, maybe the intel on the sage was inaccurate, and he does have way to teleport?), cave-in the front of the tomb or block it with rocks, and either hunt the party or report back.

Reporting back without either party or sage being dead would be bad. She'd much rather be able to say with certainty that the sage is dead, not that he's probably starving to death/dying of dehydration in a tomb. If the party chickens out of dealing with the dragon (not likely, but you never know) it can decide to cave in the tomb and try to ambush them elsewhere. (Maybe in a swamp!)

Would it make sense to cave in the front? Then he can't determine if the sage is dead. He could totally *mostly* cave it in, make it so you'd need to squeeze to get into it. This will prevent people fleeing into it easily, while allowing the sage an escape route; the dragon can pretend to be long gone, and can wait for the sage to emerge.

Fixer
2009-07-28, 02:35 PM
This was my suggestion, but it's not big enough for the feat that grants Improved Grab.I thought you don't need any feats to perform this action. Taking a -20 to your grapple check to be considered non-grappled is something that anyone can perform, regardless of feats, size, strength, or otherwise.

Anyone see a problem with this? I am a bit fuzzy on this particular rule at the moment.

@ Lamech

I think, for Dragons, there are no non-associated classes. Black dragons are sneaky by nature, so even Rogue fits with them. Maybe psionics.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 02:37 PM
I thought you don't need any feats to perform this action. Taking a -20 to your grapple check to be considered non-grappled is something that anyone can perform, regardless of feats, size, strength, or otherwise.

Anyone see a problem with this? I am a bit fuzzy on this particular rule at the moment.

I always thought that was part and parcel of Improved Grab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#improvedGrab), along with the actual grab part benefit.

Lamech
2009-07-28, 03:08 PM
I thought you don't need any feats to perform this action. Taking a -20 to your grapple check to be considered non-grappled is something that anyone can perform, regardless of feats, size, strength, or otherwise.

Anyone see a problem with this? I am a bit fuzzy on this particular rule at the moment.

@ Lamech

I think, for Dragons, there are no non-associated classes. Black dragons are sneaky by nature, so even Rogue fits with them. Maybe psionics.

Hmm... wizard! Psionics. Incrarnum. Truenamer. Survivor. Cleric. Druid.

Anyway the argument goes like this. Warblade essentially just gives it manuevers, and these manuevers give it ablities it never had before. Healing, removing spells and effects and rerolling saves. And it gives it the same BaB as dragon HD, except that it doesn't increase SR or will or ref.
For the barbarian, umm... okay thats just plain shaddy.
If he doesn't feel comfortable with the barbarian, just ditch it, and add another warblade level. And take the manuever that gives pounce.

Woodsman
2009-07-28, 03:14 PM
I'd suggest a variant presence from "Dragon Magic," along with variant spell-like abilities.

"So, you've prepped against fear, only to be stopped by nausea. Congratulations on assuming this is your run-of-the-mill black dragon."

Lapak
2009-07-28, 03:17 PM
If I were the dragon, and I strafed them from above to little/no effect, and they looked too dangerous to face in straight-up combat, I would fly away. And let them go in to save the wizard. And THEN collapse the entrance. Preferably on top of them. If he has teleport denial effects, great, but if he doesn't there was nothing he could have done to stop them teleporting in and THEN teleporting out, so he's lost nothing by doing this.

Set
2009-07-28, 03:46 PM
Is there some sort of 'breath substitution' feat? 'Cause if the party is warded to the hilt against acid, it would be a bad day for them if the dragon hit them with a cold-substituted breath or something...

If the terrain supports it, and the dragon has that charm reptiles ability, throwing a few constrictor snakes to grapple/constrict an arcanist can cut down on the incoming enemy artillery.

Always, when seeking to make a more effective encounter, recall that the ability scores listed are the base numbers. Give that puppy the elite array, or even build it on a point-buy, and you can significantly bump up some of it's abilities (might as well round up all those odd numbered stats, for one!) and perhaps even making it a particularly nimble member of it's kind by giving it a 12 or 14 Dex.

Flyby Attacks or 'Breath on the Run' would be the best bets for long-term survival. Landing to suffer full attacks is suicide-by-PCs.

jmbrown
2009-07-28, 03:57 PM
Hmm, I was going to leave the tomb unblocked, so that the sage inside would come out, trigger an alarm, and could be pounced on. If he doesn't emerge in a set period (maybe another 3-4 days), dragon would start worrying that maybe there IS another exit (or something, maybe the intel on the sage was inaccurate, and he does have way to teleport?), cave-in the front of the tomb or block it with rocks, and either hunt the party or report back.

Reporting back without either party or sage being dead would be bad. She'd much rather be able to say with certainty that the sage is dead, not that he's probably starving to death/dying of dehydration in a tomb. If the party chickens out of dealing with the dragon (not likely, but you never know) it can decide to cave in the tomb and try to ambush them elsewhere. (Maybe in a swamp!)

Would it make sense to cave in the front? Then he can't determine if the sage is dead. He could totally *mostly* cave it in, make it so you'd need to squeeze to get into it. This will prevent people fleeing into it easily, while allowing the sage an escape route; the dragon can pretend to be long gone, and can wait for the sage to emerge.

Dragons never fight fair so whatever gives him the edge is the likely path. Remember, we're talking about a guy with blindsense, flight, and spell-like abilities. If someone tries to escape from the partially collapsed entrance he'd drop darkness over it, strafe it, then wait for whomever to emerge before swooping in and full power attacking while they're flat-footed.

Alex Star
2009-07-28, 04:09 PM
Forgive me if this has been said already as I only read the first 15 or so posts.

Perhaps you're focusing too much on what the Dragon can do during combat and not enough on what the dragon could have done before combat.

Dragons are intensely smart creatures, cunning and brutal in their strategy.

The Dragon knows a fight will take place and it has the ability to prepare the battlefield however it wants.

The Dragon doesn't want the party getting into the Tomb correct?

Well what if it dug a trench... Literally a 10 foot deep by 20 foot wide trench not filled but with maybe a foot deep of acid in it infront of the Tomb entrance. (The acid might not damage the characters but imagine the effect it'd have on any non-magical gear they are wearing.)

Suddenly if the Dragon has to land getting into Melee Range with it becomes a much more difficult proposition.

And even if the melee fighters get into range suddenly the dragon is hopping to the other side of the trench to engage the casters while the melee has to slog its way back across.

This is just a simple preparation... What other traps could the Dragon have prepared in advance?

Be creative, a Dragon is more than just stats, it's a vehicle for a DM to truly maximize your creativity.

Milskidasith
2009-07-28, 04:14 PM
Have the dragon dig a moat! Then it's got the water it needs anyway. Or fill it with acid. Block off the exit after they get in there. Have the dragon prep the battlefield however he can to give him the advantage. A moat would definitely give a water breating dragon the advantage if it were wide and deep enough.

Epinephrine
2009-07-28, 04:14 PM
Forgive me if this has been said already as I only read the first 15 or so posts.

Perhaps you're focusing too much on what the Dragon can do during combat and not enough on what the dragon could have done before combat.

Dragons are intensely smart creatures, cunning and brutal in their strategy.

Adult black, Int 12? Clever, but not brilliant.


Well what if it dug a trench... Literally a 10 foot deep by 20 foot wide trench not filled but with maybe a foot deep of acid in it infront of the Tomb entrance. (The acid might not damage the characters but imagine the effect it'd have on any non-magical gear they are wearing.)
...<snip>...
Be creative, a Dragon is more than just stats, it's a vehicle for a DM to truly maximize your creativity.

That's fair - a trench or the like might be a very good idea, though it would make it seem like there is definitely a dragon around. I'll think about what she could do to prepare. :smallamused:

Milskidasith
2009-07-28, 04:17 PM
A large acid moat would be a really easy way to defend the area. If you don't feel like making it acid, just make it entirely out of dragon fouled water. Still bad for their magical items!

jmbrown
2009-07-28, 04:20 PM
Even better: drop a fog cloud or darkness over the moat and have the dragon hide in it. Players charge in and WHOOPS they can't fly.

herrhauptmann
2009-07-28, 07:06 PM
How about giving the dragon a rider. An archer or warlock (something with ranged). Add in a resilient sphere(impenetrable) and protection from missiles on the rider, and you've got yourself a rider who's not going to go down easily. Now the partywill HAVE to use its higher level spells to get rid of the rider, who with sufficient work, can be very deadly for a man who's supposed to die.

How about changing the species of dragon? Was there something which says it has to be a black dragon, especially since the location does not support his abilities. (Blacks also have the ability to foul water, which would destroy all of their potions)
Greens are typically forests. While blues I think are more mountainous.
Fang dragons are especially deadly in melee, and have spellturning. Watched a wizard get destroyed by his own Kelgores Firebolt (or maybe it was seeking ray) due to a spellturning Fang Dragon.

Alternatively, you could use 2 weaker black dragons.

AslanCross
2009-07-28, 11:47 PM
Darkvision doesn't work in Darkness produced darkness.

Actually it still does, but the characters still get the miss chance. They don't go blind.

tiercel
2009-07-29, 05:42 AM
I'm curious about what kind of "small bonuses" this black dragon has, given that you said it is an adult black dragon at CR 13. Garden-variety out-of-the-book adult dragons are CR 11. A half-fiend adult black dragon clocks in (well, theoretically) at CR 14, and at 19HD would power up the dragon so much it isn't even funny.

If this sucker is going to earn its challenge rating it should be significantly nastier than a generic adult black -- at the very least, CR+2 merits a pretty serious tactical advantage. Ideal swampy terrain or similar with ambush tactics would go a ways toward this -- even if you have to bring it in with obscured moats dug out by the dragon for the purpose.

I agree about ditching Improved Natural Armor and Improved Natural Attack and definitely Weapon Focus. Every dragon that lives should have Flyby and Wingover (poor maneuverability really bites), and pretty much any dragon of Medium size or more that will ever consider full attacking should take Multiattack. Power Attack is just too good because that attack bonus is pretty tasty -- overkill for most targets. It's too bad you can't just kick the dragon up an age category, then it would qualify for Snatch :)

If the dragon's "minor bonuses" including it being more Intelligent than average, you could drop some Combat Expertise on it, giving you more tactical options than just Power Attack.

Er... also.. dragons have hoards. With magical items. I don't see any *particular* reason why dragons couldn't, you know, use some of the more useful items that would be appropriate. If there's going to be a magical ring or two in the hoard anyway, why wouldn't the dragon wear them? (They resize and everything.)

Don't forget skills. Hide and Move Silently are class skills for black dragons; granted, Dex 10 and Large size aren't helping but a Hide check of +18 isn't terrible. If the critter has a ring of chameleon power, well, that's +28, and better yet, disguise self means it can be looking like a different color than it is. (You can accomplish the same thing via spellcasting, of course...) From the looks of things, the monk is the only one whose Spot check matters....

Epinephrine
2009-07-29, 06:46 AM
The dragon's CR and adjustments?

The dragon is Ilthane the Black, from the Age of Worms.

She has used alchemy to gain some permanent attribute bonuses (+2 to Str, Dex, and Con), is immune to poisons, and has an enhanced breath weapon that adds toxic fumes to its acid breath; if they take damage from the acid, the fumes cause 1d4 Str/1d4 Str DC 23 Fort neg.

Her lair is in a later chapter, giving the party a nice delayed reward. I could perhaps give her a few cheap items, but anything big may throw off WBL, since the tomb is pretty well loaded up.

I'm not sure that justifies +2 CR, personally, but I can see +1. The attribute bonuses are pretty minor for a dragon, though I suppose they help; a class level would grant nearly as good a set of bonuses, so I feel vindicated in tacking a sorcerer level on - the breath could actually matter, strength damage is much harder to fix up than the acid damage, provided she manages to hurt them at all with her breath.

Coidzor
2009-07-29, 07:13 AM
So it's essentially a fourth level sorcerer in terms of spells known and casting.

The whole acid breath thing makes an excellent digging tool, in addition to the dragon's strength, so... yeah... I definitely see some of wherever the wizard is holing up being partially excavated by this sort of thing...

Hmm. Maybe it'll throw up a minor image over a rudimentary/illusory floor covering the moat to lure the meleers into falling into the water.

Depending upon how big of a moat she can make, she might be in there waiting for them, or maybe she convinced some gators/crocs (if appropriate) to take up residence with promises of food with that speaking with animals ability, and they'll give the meleers some underwater battling.

Sorta depends on how long she has had to prep... I can definitely see some kinda moat near the alarm thing that would delay a weak fleshling and gimp some of their magic items and which would provide a good temporary distraction to the meleers for them to charge it, fall in, and leave the squishier types vulnerable for a round or two.

Of darkness and darkvision
1.
Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.

Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.

If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.

Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Arcane Material Component

A bit of bat fur and either a drop of pitch or a piece of coal.

2.
Darkvision

Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

3.
Darkvision
Transmutation
Level: Rgr 3, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject gains the ability to see 60 feet even in total darkness. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight. Darkvision does not grant one the ability to see in magical darkness.

Darkvision can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
Material Component

Either a pinch of dried carrot or an agate.

4.
In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

AslanCross
2009-07-29, 07:26 AM
I think the problem with the darkness spell is that it's actually not an area of total darkness but rather shadowy illumination. Meaning that creatures with darkvision really can see in it.

Coidzor
2009-07-29, 07:30 AM
Yeah, that always seemed like a major oversight on the part of the spell's designer/writer. And casting "Darkness" in the middle of actual pitch-black darkness actually makes it easier to see. Since it's like an orb of candle.

Irreverent Fool
2009-07-29, 08:19 AM
Dragons have hoards. These often include magical items. You can pick and choose what you want in the hoard. There's no reason the dragon wouldn't use its own magical items to its advantage. A thing as simple as a wand of mirror image can be a huge advantage (possibly soaking up some targeted spells) and make the fight more memorable.

Bonus points if mirror image is cast before the dragon shows up and you freak the party out about having to fight four dragons.

Additionally, most magical items that can be worn can also be worn by a dragon, as they will change size according to their current host. I think this sort of thing is mentioned in Draconomicon.

obnoxious
sig

Tiki Snakes
2009-07-29, 09:17 AM
Bonus points if mirror image is cast before the dragon shows up and you freak the party out about having to fight four dragons.


This.

Use such an item before the Dragon sets off in the morning, and leave it behind. Your wand remains in the later treasure-drop, but your dragon is beefed up for the required encounter. Also, you make the PC's poop themselves. Which is fun?

tiercel
2009-07-29, 12:15 PM
The point isn't to increase the total dragon hoard by adding items to the dragon and also having the hoard -- the point is for the dragon to use items out of its own hoard. If the dragon can use the item and then leave it in the hoard, so much the handier, but if it is something like a ring or necklace or whatever, just subtract from the later hidden hoard and add to the dragon itself.

This can also mean that if you want the dragon to have a particular item, just subtract an item of equal worth from its hoard and give the dragon the item you want.

I agree that added Sor level is probably a really good idea plus closer to consistent with its stated CR; the kicker is going to be what are you going to choose for its *one* second level spell known? (You can cheat a bit by having it own an additional scroll or two and use them before the fight; the question is what do you want it to be able to recast in a fight.) If you don't really see your PCs using touch attacks much/in a cheesy way probably mirror image is a pretty good bet (and achieves a sort of "OMG" effect as previously mentioned). The only real problem with dragon self-buffing is the low caster level; a targeted dispel magic by a PC will wreak havoc. (Ironically, mirror image helps with that too, which is part of why it's so darn good.)

Ideally you'd like a way to substitute breath weapon type, but I think that's going to be too high level of a spell for this dragon. (You could give it a scroll for a one-shot surprise, I suppose.)

GreyMantle
2009-07-29, 04:02 PM
Just make sure not to play the dragon as a stupid melee creature. A lot of DM's (myself included) instinctively shy away from stuff like flying in combat and pre-battle buffing, but, if your players are up to the challenge, such tactics are a necessary way to make battles more challenging and fun.

Also, the dragon can certainly use some of its hoard to buy cool [things].