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GoatToucher
2009-07-28, 11:13 PM
Forget about splats, as all they seem to do it add more broke-ass spells to the mix.

Please note spell type (Divine/Arcane) and level. A (brief) explanation as to why it is broken would be nice.

BobVosh
2009-07-28, 11:16 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6593752&postcount=9

A fairly good list. Feel free to ask about any, but take too long to list why each is too good.

Gralamin
2009-07-28, 11:19 PM
In addition to the above, spells like Blindness / Deafness that give a permanent debilitating effect at low levels that can only be cured by more magic should go.

GoatToucher
2009-07-28, 11:32 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6593752&postcount=9

A fairly good list. Feel free to ask about any, but take too long to list why each is too good.

Thank you, but I have no idea why at least some of them are on the list. Alarm? If someone could indulge me/us/the curious, I would appreciate it.


Blindness / Deafness

CL3 - Sor/Wiz2

Second level?!? Wow.

And not even a ray. Just :wiggles fingers: and FAPPO!

[Edit: Not even finger wiggling. Just a word.]

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-28, 11:40 PM
Eliminate the spells with no defense(MDJ, Holy Word, Solid Fog)
Eliminate the spells that have undefined or poorly-considered effects(AMF, image-line)
Eliminate the spells that obviate entire skills(Detect Traps, Knock)
Eliminate the spells that eliminate entire mechanics(FoM)
Eliminate the spells that make entire schools useless(Shadow Evoc, Mindblank, True Seeing, Energy Immunity)
Eliminate the spells that make the caster immune to non-casters(Fly, Wind Wall)
Eliminate the spells with permanent benefits but no meaningful cost(Wall of X)
Eliminate the spells that give you control of NPCs for any serious duration(Dominate, Planar Binding/Ally)
Eliminate the spells that break the action mechanics(Contingency, Summon X)

Now you've eliminated half of core, most of the options that players want to use, and still missed something.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-28, 11:42 PM
We've still got Mage Armor and Haste.

jmbrown
2009-07-28, 11:51 PM
Thank you, but I have no idea why at least some of them are on the list. Alarm? If someone could indulge me/us/the curious, I would appreciate it.

It's an undetectable suspense breaker. Alarm's cheap, it can be made permanent, and it can't be detected. A caster could use detect magic + spellcraft to learn an area is warded with an abjuration spell but you can never be for certain it's an alarm spell. You can't bypass alarm by conventional means (going ethereal but how many characters can do that?) aside from dispelling it and a mental alarm can't be silence.

As a DM, I love effin' with alarm. Most animals are tiny or larger so I built a custom "Alarm Buster" table that gives a percentage based on the area that a harmless animal will trigger the alarm. In a heavily forested area at night there's pretty much a 90% chance per hour that a tiny animal will enter your camp site especially if you have a fire going or left food out.


We've still got Mage Armor and Haste.

I don't have them on me but I remember mage armor in base 3.0 was caster only and haste fatigued you afterward. Those are good fixes IMO.

AstralFire
2009-07-28, 11:56 PM
As a DM, I love effin' with alarm. Most animals are tiny or larger so I built a custom "Alarm Buster" table that gives a percentage based on the area that a harmless animal will trigger the alarm. In a heavily forested area at night there's pretty much a 90% chance per hour that a tiny animal will enter your camp site especially if you have a fire going or left food out.

That. Is. Brilliant.

Gralamin
2009-07-29, 12:01 AM
Eliminate the spells with no defense(MDJ, Holy Word, Solid Fog)
Eliminate the spells that have undefined or poorly-considered effects(AMF, image-line)
Eliminate the spells that obviate entire skills(Detect Traps, Knock)
Eliminate the spells that eliminate entire mechanics(FoM)
Eliminate the spells that make entire schools useless(Shadow Evoc, Mindblank, True Seeing, Energy Immunity)
Eliminate the spells that make the caster immune to non-casters(Fly, Wind Wall)
Eliminate the spells with permanent benefits but no meaningful cost(Wall of X)
Eliminate the spells that give you control of NPCs for any serious duration(Dominate, Planar Binding/Ally)
Eliminate the spells that break the action mechanics(Contingency, Summon X)

Now you've eliminated half of core, most of the options that players want to use, and still missed something.

And Hilariously, Evocation is almost Untouched.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 12:14 AM
Contingency, Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, Wall of Fire, Wind Wall are all evocation.

tyckspoon
2009-07-29, 12:20 AM
...Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, Wall of Fire, Wind Wall are all evocation.

The Evocation walls aren't permanent effects and mostly don't deserve to get screwed with. Wind Wall could use an alteration to the "no, you just miss" effect on the most common ranged weapons, but that's not enough reason to kill the entire spell.

Saph
2009-07-29, 12:25 AM
Honestly, the only one of those that I'd say is problematic is Contingency, and that because you get into arguments about what counts as a trigger.

If I had to make a list, it would be:

Broken Core Spells

2 - Alter Self (possibly)
4 - Polymorph
8 - Polymorph Any Object
9 - Shapechange
9 - Gate
9 - Time Stop

. . . and that would be it.

Note that broken isn't the same as overpowered. Glitterdust is overpowered because it does too many things for a level 2 spell (blinds, breaks Hide, breaks Invis, multi-target, no-SR) but it's not actually broken because it's easy to defend against. Similarly, Alter Self is merely very good if you're just using basic forms and gaining disguise or a Swim speed, but becomes broken if your players start splatbook diving for obscure forms.

When I'm DMing I generally don't ban any core spells except for the above, and I usually find things work okay.

- Saph

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-29, 12:36 AM
I'd include all save or die spells due to how they reduce the game down to solely hoping that the victim rolls low enough to be taken out instantly, which seems potentially overpowered to me (that sort of spell, Contingency and the Celerity line are the only spells I tend to ban from my games). Is Time Stop really that bad? It only really looks useful for unloading buff spells quickly to me. (I've not really had much experience with Polymorph spells but I'd probably ban those if players were abusing them.)

SethFahad
2009-07-29, 12:38 AM
Broken spells?

One word, 5 letters:

KNOCK

because a 3rd level wizard can open the lock DC=40+++ that a 10th level rogue with special tools and training can't. :smallfurious:

As SK Reynolds said:

If the god of locks comes to the Material Plane and uses his godly power to lock a lock, Wizbo the 3rd level wizard can still get through it automatically with the spell. Italics mine.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:43 AM
Okay, notes from the front:

I can tell you wall of force is actually worthy of being on the list.
Timestop, timestop, timestop, and also timestop.
Alarm is detectable, and you can resolve its nature using spellcraft with arcane sight. But that's not really core. So you are correct.

Core is a terrible stillbirth of a beautiful game.


Knock doesn't necessarily handle warded doors or, as worded doors with multiple locking sequences, or locking mechanisms that aren't part of the door.

Saph
2009-07-29, 12:46 AM
I'd include all save or die spells due to how they reduce the game down to solely hoping that the victim rolls low enough to be taken out instantly, which seems potentially overpowered to me (that sort of spell, Contingency and the Celerity line are the only spells I tend to ban from my games).

Bear in mind that a critical from a Barbarian's Greataxe or a full attack from a TWFing Rogue can kill a monster in a single round too, with a little luck. So effectively melee characters have SoDs too, it's just that they roll the dice instead of their opponents. With that in mind, I don't think spells like Slay Living are unreasonable, especially since many creatures are immune to them.


Is Time Stop really that bad? It only really looks useful for unloading buff spells quickly to me. (I've not really had much experience with Polymorph spells but I'd probably ban those if players were abusing them.)

It breaks the action economy rules by giving you more turns than your opponent. In general, that's a bit too strong for common use unless you're fighting opponents that can do the same thing.


KNOCK

*shrug* This one I don't care about. If the wizard wants to spend his 2nd-level spell slots duplicating what the Rogue can do for free, I don't see a problem with that. Generally it's something you do when your party doesn't have a skillmonkey.

- Saph

tyckspoon
2009-07-29, 12:47 AM
I'd include all save or die spells due to how they reduce the game down to solely hoping that the victim rolls low enough to be taken out instantly, which seems potentially overpowered to me (that sort of spell, Contingency and the Celerity line are the only spells I tend to ban from my games). Is Time Stop really that bad? It only really looks useful for unloading buff spells quickly to me. (I've not really had much experience with Polymorph spells but I'd probably ban those if players were abusing them.)

Depends on how many non-targeted durable spells you have at your disposal. Do remember that Time Stop also permits summoning; one of the classic applications is to just dump as many Summon Monster (Y) spells as you have time for (or multiple Gates, if you're in a serious OH CRAP situation.) If you happen to know the Delay Spell metamagic, you can use that to put down a number of blasts (same way the Delayed Blast Fireball bomb works). For very high levels, a Spell Compendium classic is stacking Maws of Chaos. Pretty much any mechanic that lets you turn one action into multiple actions is going to be somewhere between very, very powerful and flat out broken unless it is so severely restricted that it doesn't actually let you do anything.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:48 AM
Timestop is......


I...

Tim...

I...

Look, timestop is the single best spell in the game in the opinion of many experienced optimizers. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116469) is a weak and low-end example of what it can do.

I want to make it clear that I intentionally picked a poor means by which to ruin Eurus's day. I could do much worse with core.

Kylarra
2009-07-29, 12:48 AM
Broken spells?

One word, 5 letters:

KNOCK

because a 3rd level wizard can open the lock DC=40+++ that a 10th level rogue with special tools and training can't. :smallfurious:

As SK Reynolds said:
Italics mine.Technically if you invented a spell that wasn't arcane lock and used it to prevent entry, knock doesn't effect it. :smalltongue:

Zergrusheddie
2009-07-29, 12:48 AM
Find Traps is not broken at all. It is Cleric only, and it just lets you search for traps. You don't automatically find them. So you cast a 2nd level spell to be able to search for traps at a 1/2 CL bonus. Search is cross class for a Cleric and Clerics tend not to have the most skill points because Wisdom, Strength, and Constitution are usually better.

Solid Fog has a defense in Freedom of Movement. If you think that Freedom of Movement is too powerful because it makes you immune to grapple, than make it do it doesn't make you immune to grapple or only grants you a bonus.

Blindness/Deafness is too low of a level. The funny thing is that the level 3 Wizard hit you with it but the level 5 Cleric is the only one that can remove it. However, B/D is only nasty against players because who cares if some mook is permanently Blinded? The odds are he is going to die in that combat so being permanently blind is the least of his concerns.

Polymorph is pretty bad but Shapechange is more broken. There are very few spells that can match: "I have Fast Healing 20 (I change forms as a free action to gain 20 HP), a strength of 37, AC of 40, can still cast spells, and Regeneration 5/ Silver AND Good. I'm a Pit Fiend lulz!"

The most broken spell? Gate. Hands down.
DM: "You just made 17th level. What are you going to do?"
Wizard: "I cast Gate. I Gate in an Efreeti. I Wish for a +10 Intellect Headband, a +1 Stat add, and a Candle of Invocation."
DM: "I don't remember the Candles. What do they do again?"
Wizard: "Nothing really, but they can cast Gate. I Gate in an Efreeti!"

Any DM will stop this, but it is still broken only because it is possible. I believe the term is RAWtarded?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 12:49 AM
10th level rogue should be able to hit DC 40.

+7 dex, +2 tools, +13 ranks = +22 modifier.

You open it on a roll of 18 to 20.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 12:49 AM
Saph?

Can I ask the etymology of 'broken' and 'overpowered' for you?

I use broken to mean that something is erratically inconsistent in strength, overpowered to mean consistently too good.

I see broken used as a synonym for overpowered often.

I think I understand how you're distinguishing broken from overpowered, (broken is uncounterable OP, OP is... uh... OP) but not why those words got assigned those definitions and it's breaking my brain.

Silly thing to ask about, I know, but I am a silly person.

SethFahad
2009-07-29, 12:49 AM
Mr Sean K. Reynolds adds 2 more spells:


See invisibility automatically pierces any invisibility spell. Wizbo automatically sees right through a 20th-level sorcerer's casting of invisibility, even if the sorcerer uses Heighten Spell to make his invisibility a 9th-level spell.
If Sneakofficus, god of stealth and hidden things, turns invisible with his invisibility spell-like ability, Wizbo sees him.

Protection from evil blocks any attempt to exercise magical mental control over the subject. This means that a 1st-level commoner with this spell is immune to the mental influence of the most powerful advanced aboleth in the world using its enslave ability.
He's immune to the influence of Dracula's vampire domination ability.
He's immune to Satan trying to possess him.

Nightson
2009-07-29, 12:52 AM
Knock is fortunately not hard to fix, simply have it substitute a spellcraft check for the open lock check.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 12:52 AM
If some of the examples that have just come up are to be taken seriously, wizard spells that do anything but damage are broken.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 12:54 AM
If some of the examples that have just come up are to be taken seriously, wizard spells that do anything but damage are broken.

People are reacting to the fact that Wizards can do all of these things moreso than that they can do them, I think. Even if they don't realize it.

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-29, 12:56 AM
Thanks for explaining about Time Stop (I forgot about it still being possible to summon).

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 12:58 AM
People are reacting to the fact that Wizards can do all of these things moreso than that they can do them, I think. Even if they don't realize it.

Clarify your Pelor loving pronouns.

SethFahad
2009-07-29, 12:58 AM
10th level rogue should be able to hit DC 40.

+7 dex, +2 tools, +13 ranks = +22 modifier.

You open it on a roll of 18 to 20.

...yeah right...+30 DEX... meh

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 12:59 AM
Clarify your Pelor loving pronouns.

People are reacting to the fact that Wizards can do all of these things moreso than that Wizards can do any of them, I believe. Even if the people complaining don't realize it.

Saph
2009-07-29, 01:02 AM
Saph?

Can I ask the etymology of 'broken' and 'overpowered' for you?

I use broken to mean that something is erratically inconsistent in strength, overpowered to mean consistently too good.

I see broken used as a synonym for overpowered often.

I think I understand how you're distinguishing broken from overpowered, (broken is uncounterable OP, OP is... uh... OP) but not why those words got assigned those definitions and it's breaking my brain.

Silly thing to ask about, I know, but I am a silly person.

Well, the way I see it is that something is overpowered if it's just too good. Too many advantages for too few drawbacks at too low a power level. Something like Glitterdust. A character using overpowered abilities is stronger than they should be, but they're not unbeatable.

Something is broken if it takes the entire concept of game balance, snaps it over its knee, and tap-dances on the remains while singing a jaunty tune. Candle of Invocation is broken. A character using broken abilities is either so strong that they totally destroy party balance, or is literally unkillable by anything short of deities or DM fiat.

To put it another way:

A party of 10th-level characters using overpowered stuff can consistently beat encounters with a CR several points above their level. But the game still works, you just throw tougher stuff at them.

A party of 10th-level characters using seriously broken stuff can consistently beat just about anything. The only way to threaten them is to put them up against epic-level opponents, and the collateral damage from the battle will likely include the entire campaign setting.

Basically, the distinction is that with overpowered stuff, the game still works; with broken stuff, it doesn't.

- Saph

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 01:03 AM
...yeah right...+30 DEX... meh

I might have miscalculated, but the dex of a 10th level rogue is 18 base, +2 level, +4 item = 24 dex, +7 modifier.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 01:03 AM
Okay, I see. Thanks.

jmbrown
2009-07-29, 01:50 AM
I'm surprised no one brings up blasphemy in these topics.

40' radius, instant daze/paralyze effect (especially nasty if a monster has a caster level three or four higher than his HD HEZROU), no save, save vs. dismissal if you're on another plane.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 01:50 AM
I love dropping hezzies on unprepared or cocky players.:smallredface:

Saph
2009-07-29, 02:00 AM
I'm surprised no one brings up blasphemy in these topics.

Yeah, the Blasphemy/Holy Word series is pretty close to the line.

They're powerful even if used with a normal character, and become outright broken very fast if a PC invests in boosting his caster level. And they're just as bad or worse in the hands of the DM . . . "Okay, so your entire party is paralysed, no save. Why are you looking at me like that?"

- Saph

Augmented Lurk
2009-07-29, 03:17 AM
Completely Broken these spells will ruin encounters and sometimes entire campaigns just by there mere existence:
Gate
Mordenkainen's Disjunction

Potentially Broken could potentially be potential game breakers if the player knows how to abuse them:
Wish
Miracle
Time Stop
Polymorph/PAO/Shapechange
Contingency
Planar Binding chain
Holy Word/Blasphemy/etc.
Plane Shift
Contact Other Plane

Salt_Crow
2009-07-29, 03:22 AM
Yeah, the Blasphemy/Holy Word series is pretty close to the line.

They're powerful even if used with a normal character, and become outright broken very fast if a PC invests in boosting his caster level. And they're just as bad or worse in the hands of the DM . . . "Okay, so your entire party is paralysed, no save. Why are you looking at me like that?"

- Saph

Yeah, things get pretty nasty especially if you add Half-fiend template to a dragon, which typically has a much higher HD than its CR.

Keld Denar
2009-07-29, 04:55 AM
Yeah, things get pretty nasty especially if you add Half-fiend template to a dragon, which typically has a much higher HD than its CR.

Screw that...put Half Fiend on an ANIMAL. A 50 HD polar bear is what, CR16. Half Fiend makes it ~CR17, and it can now autokill any non-evil creature with 40 HD, and probably stands a good chance of killing anything with up to 49 HD, once per day.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 04:56 AM
You might say that balance-wise, it is now a very bipolar bear.

Kurald Galain
2009-07-29, 05:26 AM
KNOCK

To paraphrase Saph -- bear in mind that a Barbarian's Greataxe can open a door in a single round too, with a little luck. So effectively melee characters have Knock too, it's just that they make a little more noise doing so. With that in mind, I don't think utility spells like Knock are unreasonable, especially since many barriers are immune to them.

I've only very rarely seen rogues use Open Lock, and I don't recall ever seeing a wizard memorize it because it simply doesn't come up all that often. For a hero to be able to open doors is no big deal at all; for comparison, Werewolf: the Apocalypse has a rank-one Ragabash power "open seal" which does precisely that, at will, with a huge chance of success - and I've never heard anybody complain about that one, either.

Saph
2009-07-29, 05:42 AM
To paraphrase Saph -- bear in mind that a Barbarian's Greataxe can open a door in a single round too, with a little luck. So effectively melee characters have Knock too, it's just that they make a little more noise doing so. With that in mind, I don't think utility spells like Knock are unreasonable, especially since many barriers are immune to them.

BRC had a really good quote on that. I can't remember which thread it was from, but I think it was one mocking terrible feats. The one he picked was Eagle Claw Attack. It's a monk feat which . . . lets you add your Wisdom bonus on damage rolls against objects. That's it.

Scene: Party is in a dungeon, and finds a locked door.

Monk: "A door? Stand back, everyone, let me handle this. I've got EAGLE'S CLAW!"
Rogue: "I've got Lockpicks."
Wizard: "I've got Knock."
Barbarian: "I've got an Adamantine Greataxe."
Bard: "While you guys were talking, I convinced the goblins on the other side to open the door for us."
Monk: ". . . Do they have a corner I can cry in?"
Bard: "Don't know, I'll ask them. Oh, by the way, they also made me their king."
Barbarian: "I hate Diplomacy."

- Saph

(Point being: everyone and his dog can open doors. Don't expect to impress anyone with it.)

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 08:37 AM
Completely Broken these spells will ruin encounters and sometimes entire campaigns just by there mere existence:
Gate
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
OK, Gate, I get.

Disjunction? Why is it broken? Is it the possibility to destroy artifacts?
I don't have a lot of experience with this spell.

Fishy
2009-07-29, 09:02 AM
How many magic items are you carrying when you're facing a wizard with 9th level spells?

MDJ stops the game while you look up every single one of their caster levels so you can roll their will saves.

Fail enough of those, and you lose the ability to meaningfully participate in the game, permanently. Death is less of a hassle than losing your stuff.

mikeejimbo
2009-07-29, 09:40 AM
If some of the examples that have just come up are to be taken seriously, wizard spells that do anything but damage are broken.

Ooh, sorry, we're going to have to remove those. Doing damage is kind of the barbarian, fighter and ranger's thing, you know. Sorry so much. Um, we leave you with... um...

mostlyharmful
2009-07-29, 10:17 AM
How many magic items are you carrying when you're facing a wizard with 9th level spells?

MDJ stops the game while you look up every single one of their caster levels so you can roll their will saves.

Fail enough of those, and you lose the ability to meaningfully participate in the game, permanently. Death is less of a hassle than losing your stuff.

There's also the issue that it strips every buff automatically and a caster's likely to have a whole lot of them. The saves aren't really too much of a problem since you can use the PCs Will like 95% of the time and only check the really high ticket items, it's the instant party debuff no matter what the CL that sucks, doubly so with a Chained Quickened Shatter for any items depowered.

Telonius
2009-07-29, 10:31 AM
How many magic items are you carrying when you're facing a wizard with 9th level spells?

MDJ stops the game while you look up every single one of their caster levels so you can roll their will saves.

Fail enough of those, and you lose the ability to meaningfully participate in the game, permanently. Death is less of a hassle than losing your stuff.

Regular old Dispel Magic has mechanics that are bad enough.

"Okay, I have six all-day spells up, hold on, let me figure out what the caster level is for each of them."
Five minutes later...
"All right, that one failed, I have to recalculate all of my attack bonuses again."
Five minutes later...
'Oh wait - did I get that bonus from a Spell-like or an Extraordinary ability? Or was that racial?"

Repeat the above for the other creatures within a 20-foot radius. :smallfurious:

Zeta Kai
2009-07-29, 10:41 AM
I've only very rarely seen rogues use Open Lock, and I don't recall ever seeing a wizard memorize it because it simply doesn't come up all that often. For a hero to be able to open doors is no big deal at all; for comparison, Werewolf: the Apocalypse has a rank-one Ragabash power "open seal" which does precisely that, at will, with a huge chance of success - and I've never heard anybody complain about that one, either.

This is an issue of your DM forgetting to putting locked doors in front of your party. For a DM who spends the time to make a door an encounter in & of itself, I can say that my Rogues use OL a lot. And have expressed annoyance at the party's Wizard stepping on their toes to pop locks willy-nilly.

As for broken spells, I'm basically with Augmented Lurk on these. Saph brings up a good point about power levels: there's a distinction between overpowered, minorly broken, & majorly broken. I have generally banned only a few spells, & those are:
• gate
• Mordenkainen’s disjunction
• polymorph family (except alter self)
• time stop

Other spells can get out of hand, but these have consistently ruined my games, & are thus permanently erased from my campaigns.

Myrmex
2009-07-29, 11:52 AM
It's an undetectable suspense breaker. Alarm's cheap, it can be made permanent, and it can't be detected. A caster could use detect magic + spellcraft to learn an area is warded with an abjuration spell but you can never be for certain it's an alarm spell. You can't bypass alarm by conventional means (going ethereal but how many characters can do that?) aside from dispelling it and a mental alarm can't be silence.

As a DM, I love effin' with alarm. Most animals are tiny or larger so I built a custom "Alarm Buster" table that gives a percentage based on the area that a harmless animal will trigger the alarm. In a heavily forested area at night there's pretty much a 90% chance per hour that a tiny animal will enter your camp site especially if you have a fire going or left food out.



I don't have them on me but I remember mage armor in base 3.0 was caster only and haste fatigued you afterward. Those are good fixes IMO.

I've always treated Alarm as a magical trap with a DC of 21 that only creatures with trapfinding can overcome (or blanket dispels, AMFs, etc).

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 11:59 AM
Regular old Dispel Magic has mechanics that are bad enough.

...

Repeat the above for the other creatures within a 20-foot radius. :smallfurious:

Dispel? Dispel bites.

The whole reason it caps at +10 is so that people who don't get Greater Dispel can be envious. (I'm a duskblade in an epic-level campaign. I can only dispel anything on a 20, with few exceptions)
Also, if you do a radius, only one spell per target is dispelled, if i'm reading this poorly-worded thing right.

Never thought about Disjunction like that before. I've never cast it, and I've only seen it cast twice.

1.) party NPC breaking a gate to the quasi-elemental plane of Decay. (that was fun...)
2.) Friend cast it on what ended up being an artifact. Successfully. (This one's bit us in the tail a few times already.)

Asbestos
2009-07-29, 12:10 PM
How many magic items are you carrying when you're facing a wizard with 9th level spells?

MDJ stops the game while you look up every single one of their caster levels so you can roll their will saves.

Fail enough of those, and you lose the ability to meaningfully participate in the game, permanently. Death is less of a hassle than losing your stuff.

In a game I played the DM was treating even the lowly 'Dispel Magic' spell as akin to MDJ. He didn't let that known however until I had cast in on the party fighter to remove an effect from him. My Dragonfire Adept and I left soon after.

Deepblue706
2009-07-29, 12:18 PM
What is this nonsense about Knock being broken? Goes into Rogue territory? What? Next thing you'll be telling me is that Fireball is broken because it goes into Fighter territory because it deals damage. Yet it's even more broken because it's ranged and hits multiple targets.

Anyway, my list would basically be Saph's.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:44 PM
Disjunction, while a WMD, has a place in the ecology of D&D. Time stop does not.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-29, 12:48 PM
If some of the examples that have just come up are to be taken seriously, wizard spells that do anything but damage are broken.Mine was somewhat sarcastic, I admit. But everything I listed can be used to break the game. Dominate Person, for example, means that your DM can no longer send high-level NPC Meatshields against you without some means of Mindblank. It's basically a Save-or-Die that grants you the Leadership feat each time someone fails. Much of my other stuff was the same, a way for the Wizard to get power far beyond what was anticipated by the designers.

The point being, of course, that you can't ban everything broken for Wizards. They can break almost anything.

quick_comment
2009-07-29, 12:49 PM
I always treat MDJ as an uncapped dispel that can dispel undispellable things (like AMF or wall of force) with a -10 penalty on the undispellable things.

Telonius
2009-07-29, 12:58 PM
Dispel? Dispel bites.

The whole reason it caps at +10 is so that people who don't get Greater Dispel can be envious. (I'm a duskblade in an epic-level campaign. I can only dispel anything on a 20, with few exceptions)
Also, if you do a radius, only one spell per target is dispelled, if i'm reading this poorly-worded thing right.


Oh yeah, the power level of it isn't bad at all. I'm talking about the mechanics being a total pain in the butt. Any spell that takes ten minutes to adjudicate is a badly-designed spell. I'd call it broken, not by imbalance, but by "Oh dear gods I'm going to kill myself if anybody casts the thing again"-ness.

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 01:14 PM
Oh yeah, the power level of it isn't bad at all. I'm talking about the mechanics being a total pain in the butt. Any spell that takes ten minutes to adjudicate is a badly-designed spell. I'd call it broken, not by imbalance, but by "Oh dear gods I'm going to kill myself if anybody casts the thing again"-ness.

You should see when I full channel Dispelling Touch, then. My DMs ruled that I get a check against every effect, (Also, that a full-Channeled spell can hit a target multiple times. [both of us made the same assumption when reading the class, and both of us rejected the FAQs ruling after finding out about it.] I'm under a vow to never use "Shivering Touch" against one creature like that under pain of death. OOC.), and we've come across several epic level spellcasters. Mor than once with me as the only guy with Dispel.

ericgrau
2009-07-29, 01:43 PM
I can understand some of the spells listed, but not most. Summons and polymorph (into a core monster) bring an encounter with a CR very much below the caster and consume a round. Self protections likewise consume a round and often aren't even worth casting b/c of this (let alone becoming a candidate for broken-ness). While area SoS's are nice (but don't fully kill, per the name), single target SoD's or SoS's have a 50:50 chance of affecting anything worth targetting, and then you could just take it down with 2 rounds of direct damage. Or multiple with area direct damage. And that actually stacks with your party's damage, whereas SoDing a wounded baddy just wastes the wounds. A couple others involve cheese so bad that they wouldn't survive 3 seconds in front of a DM with any sense. Extradimensional spaces pose a hazard for anyone carrying bags of holding (why people ignore this rule as stupid then turn around and say how broken these spells are is beyond me), last a short time at low level and are defeatable at high level. Others seemed handy only under narrow contrived circumstances; if you blew a spell slot (or multiple) for something so specific and got lucky or scouted out your enemy that well a day in advance and I was DMing, I'd just give it to you.

HamHam
2009-07-29, 02:31 PM
Extradimensional spaces pose a hazard for anyone carrying bags of holding (why people ignore this rule as stupid then turn around and say how broken these spells are is beyond me)

Because there is no such rule.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 02:40 PM
A few ideas for changes I've come up with:

Have Time Stop only allow you to cast spells within a little personal bubble and/or fatigue the caster.

Have Dispel Magic only allow a Targeted Dispel, and have Mage's Disjunction merely negate magic items for 1d4 rounds, which you can have Dispel Magic do.

Have Polymorph/Shapechange consume a full round as you transform and provoke attacks of opportunity.

Also, have Ray of Exhaustion/Enfeelbement/etc. allow a Fortitude save.

ericgrau
2009-07-29, 02:41 PM
Because there is no such rule.



Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional space within an existing extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional space into an existing one.


Yes there is, right inside of the spell in question.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 02:43 PM
Bag of Holding
This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.

Check and mate.

ericgrau
2009-07-29, 02:45 PM
It's the same thing! Portable hole even uses the two terms interchangeably. Brb with a quote. EDIT: and why do people gloat over terminology, technicalities and other trifles as if they were absolutes?

EDIT, here it is:


Portable Hole
A portable hole is a circle of cloth spun from the webs of a phase spider interwoven with strands of ether and beams of starlight. When opened fully, a portable hole is 6 feet in diameter, but it can be folded up to be as small as a pocket handkerchief. When spread upon any surface, it causes an extradimensional space 10 feet deep to come into being. This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.

The only air in the hole is that which enters when the hole is opened. It contains enough air to supply one Medium creature or two Small creatures for 10 minutes. The cloth does not accumulate weight even if its hole is filled. Each portable hole opens on its own particular nondimensional space. If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in that place. Both the bag and the cloth are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane. The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, the portable hole and bag of holding being destroyed in the process.

Moderate conjuration; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, plane shift; Price 20,000 gp.


Or would someone care to explain the nuances of what an extradimensional & nondimensional space are, as if any difference whatsoever existed between them.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 02:46 PM
A few ideas for changes I've come up with:

Have Time Stop only allow you to cast spells within a little personal bubble and/or fatigue the caster.

Have Dispel Magic only allow a Targeted Dispel, and have Mage's Disjunction merely negate magic items for 1d4 rounds, which you can have Dispel Magic do.

Have Polymorph/Shapechange consume a full round as you transform and provoke attacks of opportunity.

Fixes nothing, nothing, also nothing and nothing. 1d4 rounds is enough for me to kill you 1d4 times.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 02:48 PM
EDIT: and why do people gloat over terminology, technicalities and other trifles as if they were absolutes?

And you're doing what?

ericgrau
2009-07-29, 02:49 PM
Clarifying. Without using such "well reasoned" argument techniques as declaring victory. Edited that post with the SRD quote now btw.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 02:51 PM
Clarifying.

Pffft. Semantics. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2009-07-29, 02:53 PM
It's the same thing! Portable hole even uses the two terms interchangeably. Not the same thing. Portable Hole happens to be an item that is both extradimensional and nondimensional.

Nondimensional is not constrained by dimensions. That means you can put a 10' pole in a Heward's Handy Haversack, despite it being of only backpack size. But that 10' pole is still in the same plane of existence, and can be located with Locate Object. Extradimensional spaces are their own demiplanes, and their contents are just elsewhere.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 02:54 PM
Thanks. I honestly did not know that.

Gralamin
2009-07-29, 02:57 PM
Yes there is, right inside of the spell in question.

Even ignoring the semantic argument, If Its hazardous to bring them in there, what happens? By RAW, the only Time that something happens is when a Portable hole and a Bag of holding are put together. Since this doesn't spell out what the hazard is, nothing technically happens, just as Undead don't die on the Positive energy plane.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 03:06 PM
Fixes nothing, nothing, also nothing and nothing. 1d4 rounds is enough for me to kill you 1d4 times.

Not really, no. :smallannoyed:

Ninetail
2009-07-29, 03:20 PM
Eliminate the spells with no defense(MDJ, Holy Word, Solid Fog)
Eliminate the spells that have undefined or poorly-considered effects(AMF, image-line)
Eliminate the spells that obviate entire skills(Detect Traps, Knock)
Eliminate the spells that eliminate entire mechanics(FoM)
Eliminate the spells that make entire schools useless(Shadow Evoc, Mindblank, True Seeing, Energy Immunity)
Eliminate the spells that make the caster immune to non-casters(Fly, Wind Wall)
Eliminate the spells with permanent benefits but no meaningful cost(Wall of X)
Eliminate the spells that give you control of NPCs for any serious duration(Dominate, Planar Binding/Ally)
Eliminate the spells that break the action mechanics(Contingency, Summon X)

Now you've eliminated half of core, most of the options that players want to use, and still missed something.

Eliminate the spells that cause ability damage or inflict negative levels. :p

Metamagicked ray of enfeeblement or enervation get ridiculous. (Actually, eliminate a lot of metamagic while you're at it...)

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 03:30 PM
Eliminate the spells that cause ability damage or inflict negative levels. :p

Metamagicked ray of enfeeblement or enervation get ridiculous. (Actually, eliminate a lot of metamagic while you're at it...)

Or just give a Fortitude save against it...

Philaenas
2009-07-29, 04:13 PM
I don't think you can actually say that any spell is totally broken, as it will mostly depend on the person using it, especially spells like polymorph... Except for MDJ, which sucks when you use it regardless... Just make sure the wizard in your campaign feels like he has to preserve his powerful spells by giving them enough challenging encounters. And honestly, if your monster just has a high enough SR, it will become interesting anyway. :smallsmile:

Lamech
2009-07-29, 04:39 PM
I think they need to change the casting time on the limited wish, wish, miracle line to the same as what they try to copy. A few spells were balanced based on casting time. Geas for example.

Hyfigh
2009-07-29, 05:10 PM
I've got to agree that Knock isn't broken, per se, but it does definitely step on toes.

Being able to unlock any lock from a distance (so no pesky traps triggered while you're in lethal range) is quite a big boost when compared to the Rogue.

Sure, the Rogue can do it at will... Realistically, the Wizard can too. Scrolls for low level spells are cheap, and cheaper to make. A wand is even cheaper than scrolls.

Being that you may not need to use the spell very frequently a simple wand could potentially last you forever. 50 charges of who-gives-a-sh*t-what-the-DC-is and yea-it's-trapped-but-it-won't-hit-us is quite brutal compared to I-can-do-a-weaker-version-at-will. It's kind of like the people that claim Warlocks are good because they can use Edlritch Blast at will (this is a comparison, not something people should be arguing).

This isn't just limited to Knock, though. I think that the "broken" comes from the whole slew of anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better spells that exist.

I view the save-or-die spells in a similar light. It's not that the Wizard has one save Fort-or-die. It's that he has save Fort-or-die, save Will-or-die, and a few save Ref-or-suck all at once. Someone compared save or die to massive HP damage from Rogues and Barbarians. It's just not the same. You run into the fact that HP scales far faster than damage and faster than that compared to saves. Not only do you have to compete against AC to land your hit, you need to defeat another defense in HP. The Wizard gets to choose to cpmete against Fort, Will, or Reflex.

Forbiddenwar
2009-07-29, 05:39 PM
Being that you may not need to use the spell very frequently a simple wand could potentially last you forever. 50 charges of who-gives-a-sh*t-what-the-DC-is and yea-it's-trapped-but-it-won't-hit-us


Huh. Good thing I never enountered a wizard with that attitude before. Some traps don't have a range (Flooding crushing room) and some have a range far greater than the range of KNOCK (spears, darts, fireballs)

Anyway, I would argue that ALARM is not broken. not when it can be detected by a level 1 rogue.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 07:34 PM
Not really, no. :smallannoyed:

Oh? I don't mean to be vociferous, but I'd be willing to sit down and talk this through. I really did mean it. I could still toast a non-caster with trivial ease even with those fixes.

GoatToucher
2009-07-29, 07:51 PM
So how would you fix it?

FlawedParadigm
2009-07-29, 07:53 PM
For the record, I once ran a game where Time Stop fatigued the caster so severely that they couldn't do anything but catch their breath for a number of rounds equal to the extra turns they had gotten from TS. Basically, as helpless as they could be without being coup-de-grace bait. The spell was still broken; it just changed how it was used. Either they'd use the TS time to load up on so many buffs they could stand a few rounds of being helpless after, or they'd just drop as many DBF/Acid Fogs/etc. as they could and Greater Teleported out.

Trust me, not a lot could save that spell without making it SO bad no one would ever want to use it. It defines broken.

Saph
2009-07-29, 09:49 PM
I've got to agree that Knock isn't broken, per se, but it does definitely step on toes.

Being able to unlock any lock from a distance (so no pesky traps triggered while you're in lethal range) is quite a big boost when compared to the Rogue.

Sure, the Rogue can do it at will... Realistically, the Wizard can too. Scrolls for low level spells are cheap, and cheaper to make. A wand is even cheaper than scrolls.

Being that you may not need to use the spell very frequently a simple wand could potentially last you forever. 50 charges of who-gives-a-sh*t-what-the-DC-is and yea-it's-trapped-but-it-won't-hit-us is quite brutal compared to I-can-do-a-weaker-version-at-will.

Do bear in mind that Rogues have UMD. So they can have a few ranks in Open Lock for the easy locks, and a Wand of Knock whenever something's difficult. Wands aren't limited to spellcasting classes.

Or the Barbarian or Fighter can just Power Attack the door into tiny unrecognisable splinters. Opening doors just isn't all that difficult. It's questionable whether it's really worth a spell slot most of the time.

- Saph

FatR
2009-07-30, 12:31 AM
There are few spells that actually break the game, as opposed to merely being really effective or/and really annoying.

- (Lesser) Planar Binding. Can make the non-casting members of the party very much unnecessary.

- Polymorph Any Object/Shapechange (through maybe not normal Polymorph, which is merely an extremely powerful spell that can cause a lot of annoyance to GM). They, particularly Shapechange, are used to remove whatever limitations arcane casters still have at these levels, such as lack of general access to divine spellcasting or insufficiently overwhelming stats.

- Gate. You can use it to either summon creatures that are even better that you are supposed to be or cheaply kill almost anything.

- Astral Projection. Allows you to save the game.

- Wish. The 3.5 version can be used to start infinite loops.

- Blasphemy, etc is borderline, like normal Polymorph. If you pump your caster level enough, they become extremely good at making things die without allowing any sort of defence.

- Time Stop breaks the economy of actions too well. I would say that it is not nearly as bad as Astral Projection, Wish and even Gate, but still, if you have entered Time Stop, you have almost won your current battle.

arguskos
2009-07-30, 12:40 AM
Oh? I don't mean to be vociferous, but I'd be willing to sit down and talk this through. I really did mean it. I could still toast a non-caster with trivial ease even with those fixes.
You get a cookie for using vociferous in conversation. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and how do you fix the wizard? Well, there's a procedure called castration see... :smalltongue:

FatR
2009-07-30, 12:55 AM
I've got to agree that Knock isn't broken, per se, but it does definitely step on toes.
"Toes" of rogue is being a blender of death. No one cares about doors and locks by the time you can sacrifice your 2-nd level slots for Knock. No one. And rogues have access to spells (via UMD) as one of their key abilities anyway.