Social Hitpoints [Idea Tossing]

[Maerok]

HP as we know it is usually attributed to physical combat - being a measure of making a blow glance off you or some permutation thereof until it reaches 0 and boom, you're dead.

This is also a response to the combat orientation of DnD, which pushes many social aspects out of the way. I know this might seem out of place - "DnD was bred from war games, grrr!" - but a hero's gotta maintain the PR front or end up flogged anyway.

Now social hitpoints would sort of work like Reputation has been presented in numerous formats. It's a general ranking of honor, reliability, your good name, etc. or the very opposite. Social hitpoints is you keeping your stuff in line.

As agents of the enemy work against you via social interactions (Diplomacy, Bluff, new class features, bards, etc), it can affect your social hitpoints which in turn degrades the image others have for you. Once it reaches 0, you've been ruined and left for dead. SHP would be much harder to revive but could be done so via completed tasks and restoring your prior (in)famousness.

Combat HP at zero means your pretty much dead, Social HP at zero means you might as well be dead.

It adds another factor that I know many people are looking to get out of DnD that really doesn't exist to any solid extent. This here is mostly just me brainstorming some aspects of a concept that some might find interesting so I was wondering what you would think.

[AstralFire]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd much rather see a development of a true social challenge system for D&D. I've worked out one for another system, but it's very hard to integrate into D&D.

I... dunno. This kind of reminds me of reputation in WoW, as it deals with general fame rather than personal relations. Feel like this is the sort of thing best left to roleplaying, because it's a system which runs counter to how most systems work - that is to say, most things roleplay background and use mechanics for foreground.

[fuzzywolf]

I actually kind of like this idea, but it would need a lot of fleshing out. Someone spreading rumors about you? Take a hit to your hp. Throw a great party? Heal some hp. Then when you and your adversary go before the local lord to argue your case, you verbally hack and slash at each other until one of you gets the x's in your eyes.

[Cute_Riolu]

Then when you and your adversary go before the local lord to argue your case, you verbally hack and slash at each other until one of you gets the x's in your eyes.

...Am I the only one that gets a really friggin hilarious mental image out of that?

[Myiven]

I like this idea. L5R uses three different ranks, "Glory", "Honor", and "Status", all of which are used in a meter similar to what you put forward. A rank of zero in all three means the player is so low that even peasants would pretend not to see them and probably refuse to even speak to them, though the social class system in Rokugan is pretty harsh.


Great idea you've had. I'd love to see it implemented in d20.

[The Tygre]

Personally, I like this idea as well. Would it be cause to bring back the good ol' Innuendo skill back? You never realize how much you need that until you're a samurai...

[Debihuman]

I think giving out hit points based on social aspects just adds too much complexity to an already bloated game. However you can use Reputation as hound here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/reputation.htm.

"Narrow, niche skills such as Innuendo and Intuit Direction folded into broader
skills such as Bluff and Survival." [from the 3.5 Update Booklet].

Debby

[Lappy9000]

I simply like having the players rely on ingenuity and creativeness in social situations. The rolls only show how gullible/angry/etc. someone is. For example, you can rarely just 'bluff' in a game I play in. You need to actually back it up.

[The Tygre]

Yeah, see, the problem there is that a lot of players are, oh, what's the word? Stupid. They can't be ingenuous or creative. Whenever they bluff it's 'LOLCATZ BEHINDZ U' and their Diplomacy is 'I SEXZ U UPZ NOW 4 TEH MUNEYZ???'. There's nothing to really lose for them. If they fail once, they can try again, at least in social situations. In adventuring situations, like negotiating with ogres or something, they can act right for all of three minutes before one yells 'Sneak Attack!'. But in just regular, good ol' social banter, I feel the need for a system of loss and gain. Plus, no offense, but how is the Hit Points system complicated? You have some, you're alive. When they're all gone, you're dead. Until then:

http://www.funnymotivationalposters.net/userContent/poster/hp.jpg

[AstralFire]

Yeah, see, the problem there is that a lot of players are, oh, what's the word? Stupid. They can't be ingenuous or creative. Whenever they bluff it's 'LOLCATZ BEHINDZ U' and their Diplomacy is 'I SEXZ U UPZ NOW 4 TEH MUNEYZ???'. There's nothing to really lose for them. If they fail once, they can try again, at least in social situations. In adventuring situations, like negotiating with ogres or something, they can act right for all of three minutes before one yells 'Sneak Attack!'. But in just regular, good ol' social banter, I feel the need for a system of loss and gain. Plus, no offense, but how is the Hit Points system complicated? You have some, you're alive. When they're all gone, you're dead. Until then:

http://www.funnymotivationalposters.net/userContent/poster/hp.jpg

Try Again

Varies. Generally, a failed Bluff check in social interaction makes the target too suspicious for you to try again in the same circumstances

Try Again

Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.

Try Again

Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial check succeeds, the other character can be intimidated only so far, and a retry doesn’t help. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly resolved to resist the intimidator, and a retry is futile.

Of the many issues with D&D's social combat resolution, 'they can just try again' is not one of them.

[Lappy9000]

Yeah, see, the problem there is that a lot of players are, oh, what's the word? Stupid. They can't be ingenuous or creative. Whenever they bluff it's 'LOLCATZ BEHINDZ U' and their Diplomacy is 'I SEXZ U UPZ NOW 4 TEH MUNEYZ???'. There's nothing to really lose for them. If they fail once, they can try again, at least in social situations. In adventuring situations, like negotiating with ogres or something, they can act right for all of three minutes before one yells 'Sneak Attack!'. But in just regular, good ol' social banter, I feel the need for a system of loss and gain. Plus, no offense, but how is the Hit Points system complicated? You have some, you're alive. When they're all gone, you're dead.I disagree with you and your broken picture link :smalltongue:

That's why you make that the playing style. You'd may be surprised how much more inventive people can get when they have to think up stuff to get a bluff done.

[The Tygre]

Tried it. Trust me. My players have all the social ingenuity of garden slugs. Guess it's just me... Le sigh...

[Maerok]

If they're giving you problems...

Then it's simple: kill the Batman players.

---

I generally try to pick my comrades rather diligently before I even approach them. But in places where others are rare...

[Pie Guy]

Am I the only person who thought of insult swordfighting?

[fuzzywolf]

Proposal:

Optional Rule: Social Hitpoints

Social Hitpoints are a measure of a character's social or political capital for a given locale. Whether it represents favors earned, goodwill stored away, secrets stolen, bribes readied or blackmail planned, social hitpoints represent a character's ability to get things done by making other people do them.

Gaining Social Hitpoints:
A character gains 1 max social hp every time they take a level in an adventuring class. Certain commoner classes, like nobles, may also gain 1 social hp per level. Some classes may get more than this, and certain classes, like the bard, may add their charisma modifier to their social hp gained upon level up.

Social hp gained in this fashion only applies in regions that the character's fame might conceivably have spread to. If they take a ship to a previously undiscovered continent, they must build their social hp from scratch. (Character's should keep track of the experience earned in this new location, and, for the purposes of determining local social hp, pretend they began again at level 1 in this locale).

Character's operating in hostile country might take a -5 to -10 penalty to their social hp. In an extreme case, such as an escaped criminal returning to the manor where he committed his string of murders, a character might be unable to make use of social hp at all, and will automatically fail in situations where social hp would have been used.

All citizens of a locale get +1 social hp for their locale; persons of rank may have additional social hp for their locale. The 1 social hp possessed by most commoners represents the give and take that lets commoners go about their daily business.


Loosing Social Hitpoints:
Out of combat, long term social attacks may be initiated by characters with the appropriate skill. Bluff, intimidate, diplomacy or similar skills may be used to start rumors, threaten allies, rebribe those an opponent has bribed, and so forth. Damage for these actions are generally the result of the skill check divided by 5, rounding down with a minimum of 1 damage for successful checks. The DC for the check is generally the max social hp of the target. These attacks are limited in frequency to 1 per month per target. Any more than that, and people begin to catch on that you're just trying to be mean to a particular person.

In social combat setting, a character may make a social attack upon any person present. Their target need not be in hearing range, but at least one fourth of all persons present (or, if one particular person is to be the judge of their battle, that person) must hear or otherwise person(e.g., through telepathy) each social attack. An attack may be made through use of diplomacy, intimidate, bluff or perform. The dc is 10 + target's sense motive modifier + any misc modifiers. Damage die is determined by class, and the attacker adds his charisma modifier (if positive) to the damage.

Example: Yin and Yang, two rival beguilers, both attend the Solstice Masquerade Ball at the mayor's manor. They circulate throughout the party, making witty jokes, insightful comments, and wry observations or offerring bribes, making threats and intimating secret knowledge, whichever befits their style; the effect of all this is to imply that their opponent is not to be trusted. All the while, they each try frantically to parry the pointed thrusts of the other.

Each round, Yin makes a diplomacy check against Yang's 'social ac' of 10 + 7 ranks in sense motive + 3 charisma modifier = 20. Yang makes an intimidate check against Yin's 'social ac' of 10 + 9 ranks in sense motive + 2 charisma modifier = 21. Both deal a base of 1d6 damage on a successful 'hit', for a total of 1d6 + 3 damage for Yin and 1d6 + 2 damage for Yang. When reduced to 0 hp, Yang slinks away from the party, knowing that he has failed to discredit Yin, but plotting revenge on her.

Class damage:
Fighter classes and caster classes: 1d4
Rogue classes and skill monkey classes: 1d6
Bards, nobles and certain other classes: 1d8
Politician (class description to follow tomorrow): 1d10

Healing Social HP
Some magical and extraordinary effects may restore lost social hp. In addition, every week, a character's social hp moves toward their max social hp by 1. Yang, licking his wounds, regains 6 social hp in a month and a half. Likewise, if a character has social hp above his max because of some magical or extraordinary effect, or because he has recently performed a great deed, that bonus social hp fades at a rate of 1 per week until the character's normal max is reached.

Tomorrow, I'll post a description of the politician class, a 20 level commoner class that makes good use of the above rules.

[fuzzywolf]

POLITICIAN

Politicians. We all know them, and for better or for worse, they're extremely skilled at getting others to do the work they think needs doing. Commoner class.

Hit die: d4. Social damage die: d10
Social hp: Each level of politician adds 2 + cha mod max social hp.
Class Skills (and the ability tied to each): Bluff(cha), Diplomacy(cha), Gather Information(cha), Intimidate(cha), Knowledge - history, geography, local, nobility or religion(int), Perform(cha), Sense Motive(cha)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0|Fast Social Healing 1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0|Bonus Feat: Skill Focus

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Burn Social Capital 1/day

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Give Back to the Community

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Bonus Feat: Skill Focus

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Burn Social Capital 2/day

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Sway the Crowd

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|Bonus Feat: Skill Focus

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+3|Burn Social Capital 3/day

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Fast Social Healing 2

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat: Greater Skill Focus

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+4|Burn Social Capital, 4/day

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+4|Polarize the Debate

14th|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat: Greater Skill Focus

15th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Burn Social Capital 5/day

16th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Something

17th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Bonus Feat: Greater Skill Focus

18th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Burn Social Capital 6/day

19th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Fast Social Healing 3

20th|
+x|
+x|
+x|
+x|Bonus Feat: Epic Skill Focus[/table]

Armor and Weapons: The politician gains no armor proficiency, and is proficient with only simple weapons.
Fast Social Healing: A politician regains lost social hp at an increased rate. This is +1 per month at first level, +2 at 10th level and +3 at 19th level. This does not increase the rate at which bonus social hp dissipate. This bonus is only active if the entire month is spent within his locale.
Bonus Feats: The politician gains a number of bonus feats as indicated. He can select skill focus feats associated with any class skill, greater skill focus for any skill he has selected skill focus for, and epic skill focus for any skill he has greater skill focus for. Greater skill focus is as skill focus, except the bonus stacks with skill focus, thus its total bonus (for skil focus and greater skill focus combined) is +6.
Burn Social Capital: The politician may, once per day, take 1 social hp damage to add his politician level to any skill check involving a class skill. He gains additional daily uses of this ability at levels 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.
Give Back to the Community A politician may spend an entire day performing physical labor on a project of recognized common good to regain a number of social hp equal to his politician level.
Sway the Crowd A politican may spend 1 social hp to make 1d8 + cha mod listeners one catagory more friendly. This makes those people more likely to agree with and to his proposals.
Polarize the Debate: By spending three social hp, a politician can shift the opinions of everyone in the room. Everyone listening to the politician has their attitude toward the discussed idea shift 1 catagory more extreme. Thus, those who were firmly in favor are now adamant, and those who were slightly against are now firmly against. This ability cannot normally make listeners hostile or fanatical, though in exceptional circumstances it may.
Hostile
Firmly Against
Slightly Against
Indifferent
Slight In Favor
Firmly In Favor
Adamant
Fanatical

[horus42]

Exalted has a system for so called "social combat."

I only got the book recently, so I'm still fuzzy on the details as of now.

I think it works similar to the physical combat, even with Social Health Levels and whatnot.