[3.5] Campaign Idea - Legend of the Seven

[elliott20]

I'm not sure if this would better in the homebrew area, but I thought I could get a first pass from you guys first.

Background on the idea

in 1993, Squaresoft developed a game called "Romancing Saga 2", a non-linear JRPG that has you playing not just as a single hero, but rather an entire series of emperors trying to quell the land. It's a game that is generational, basically.

The backdrop of the setting is that the world was once threatened by a great evil but was defeated by a band of heroes known as the "Seven Heroes". the Seven defeated this great evil, destroying it forever and returned as saviors of the world. However, over time, the people began to resent them and feared the power. Eventually, they turned upon the Seven, and caused the Seven to rebel against the very people they saved.

another war ensued, resulting in the Seven being sealed away for some time. In this alternate dimension, the Seven's hatred of those they saved festered until they eventually too became something entire sinister and malevolent. Then one day, the Seven returned as demons who would bring war and strife back into the world.

as kingdoms fail before them, the Seven eventually split up and each took up residence in one kingdom they have occupied, becoming the undisputed masters of their domain.

This is where the players story starts. They play the heroes of the once great kingdom Avalon (that's the actual name used), now but a shadow of it's former self, reduced to ruling a single city in the northern continent. Their goal? to restore peace to the land by destroying the Seven, and restore the glory of the great Avalon.


the concept

The players will play a multitude of characters over the course of the campaign. They will create a first party, with one character playing the emperor of that generation. At each generation skip, the players would create new characters (or age the older ones) to represent the new generation, with another player taking on the role of emperor for this generation. This way, each player will get to be emperor at least once.

To go with this, an idea I had was that in the beginning, you could only create characters from a fairly limited list of classes. As the campaign continues and the empire's influence grows along with their access to talent, they will begin to have more and more access to different classes and PrCs.

the same will go for things like arcane spells and such. In the beginning, your magic users will only have access to a small number of spells. you can certainly research more but it will be slow in the beginning. but as the magical infrastructure in your empires grow, you gain more spells at your disposal.


The Seven

These are the Seven listed in the actual RS2 game itself

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bb/7heroes.PNG

Kujinshi: A floating demon with a scarf covering his face, wielding a sword. He's supposed to a skilled swordsman but he's most fearsome ability is the Soul Steal, a technique that can instantly slay any living creature by devouring their souls. This I'm having a lot of problem coming a build for.

Wagnas: A hero with both angelic and butterfly-like characteristics, the incredibly feminine looking Lord Wagnas is actually male. He enslaves the Iris race to do his bidding, and resides in a floating castle above the Eastern Kingdom. I figured with him I would make him a full caster with some kind of template with wings put on top. Not sure how to handle this yet.

Dantarg: With features reminiscent of both elephants and sauropods as well as that of the mythical centaur, Lord Dantarg is one of the most physically powerful of the Seven. He terrorizes the migratory clans, and prefers devastating physical attacks. I figured I could just make him an ubercharger build.

Bokuohn: A puppeteer demon with an elderly appearance, Bokuohn is in control of the majority of the Seven Heroes' forces. Situated in the Steppes region, he owns a large landship, complete with an innumerable amount of slaves. His special technique, "Marionette," allows him to manipulate all party members. Not sure how I'd do this guy either.

Subier: A male cecaelia (half-human, half-octopus) that controls various minions in the ocean.

Noel: A Swordsman who always keeps his word. Very powerful, with a strict code of honor. If you defeat Rocbouquet before you fight him, however, he becomes completely unwilling to compromise, and becomes unrelenting in combat. Probably the easiest to stat out since I can just go Warblade 20 and be done with it.

Rocbouquet: The only female of the 7, she controls all the men in the Jungle villages. While there, she aspires to know the secret of a nearby temple. She is known for her ability to temptation which can cause characters to switch allegiance mid battle. She is also the sister of Lord Noel. Diplomancer maybe? Or maybe I can just make her a bard.


Classes available in the beginning

Core melee classes
Wizard (with a severely reduced spell list)
Sorcerer (as wizard, with severely reduced spell selection)
Rogue
Cleric (again, with a severely reduced spell list in the beginning)


more to come, I suppose.

[Another_Poet]

Awesome, awesome idea.

It seems you're looking for feedback so I'll make some suggestions based on my own GMing, please don't feel that i'm being critical, I love this idea.

The first thing that occurs to me is that ageing your old PCs for the next generation could be a problem. Ageing a wizard, cleric or sorcerer may actually make the character more powerful (mental stat bumps) while ageing a fighter type makes the character nearly useless. So you'll have some players rolling up new characters (presumably starting at a lower level?) while others keep their old high-level characters and get better stats. It will be hard to balance for that party. On the other hand starting new characters off at the same level as the experienced older characters seems unrealistic and also will lead to a power creep from one generation to the next.

I'm not saying you shouldn't let PCs age and come back in a later generation. I really think that is a fun option. But you'll need to bainstorm some ways to either curb the power of aged casters, or give new characters a leg-up without just starting them at a high level.

Other thoughts include which classes are avilable to start with. You say Wiz, Src, Rog, Clr are avilable to start with. Why? These are some of the most educated and strongest classes. If the beginning of the game features a single ruioned city with few resources and an iron-fisted tyrant, why would there be such powerful classes at the beginning? And why would weaker, less cultured classes show up later, when the kingdom is in better shape?

My suggestion would be to allow Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Favoured Soul, and Bard at the beginning. This reflects how bad off the kingdom is.

In Generation 2, add Rogue, Paladin and Sorcerer.

In Generation 3, add Wizard and Cleric.

Maybe Druid in Generation 4? As health returns to the land, the voices of the trees and field call out once again?

Aside from believability, this will also help fix your ageing PC problem. A 5th level fighter, with ageing penalties, can be in the same party as a 1st level wizard and they will do just fine. The weaker classes get the leg up on getting levels early on, while the caster classes have to start later in the game and work harder before they can reach high levels + age bonuses.

Just some ideas. Great, great game idea.

ap

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The first thing that occurs to me is that ageing your old PCs for the next generation could be a problem. Ageing a wizard, cleric or sorcerer may actually make the character more powerful (mental stat bumps) while ageing a fighter type makes the character nearly useless. So you'll have some players rolling up new characters (presumably starting at a lower level?) while others keep their old high-level characters and get better stats. It will be hard to balance for that party. On the other hand starting new characters off at the same level as the experienced older characters seems unrealistic and also will lead to a power creep from one generation to the next.

I'm not saying you shouldn't let PCs age and come back in a later generation. I really think that is a fun option. But you'll need to bainstorm some ways to either curb the power of aged casters, or give new characters a leg-up without just starting them at a high level.

Making new characters at higher level isn't all that problematic, actually; I've heard of (though never had a chance to use) Mentor and Apprentice feats in the DMG2 which allow older, more experienced characters to pass on that knowledge to others. It makes sense that as the empire becomes more powerful, there would be more plentiful temples, better-kept arcane libraries, more developed martial academies, etc.


My suggestion would be to allow Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Favoured Soul, and Bard at the beginning. This reflects how bad off the kingdom is.

In Generation 2, add Rogue, Paladin and Sorcerer.

In Generation 3, add Wizard and Cleric.

Maybe Druid in Generation 4? As health returns to the land, the voices of the trees and field call out once again?

I would suggest a sorcerer instead of the bard in generation 1--bards are typical of a more developed society (whether the urban bard of D&D or the warrior-poet of Celtic lore) and the ruined kingdom is anything but.

Assuming you have 7 generations overall, I'd slow down the rate of gain of new classes. Gen 3 could add the bard, rogue, and paladin as the urban centers develop; Gen 5 would add wizard, cleric, and druid as urban centers (and the land itself) flourish.


EDIT: I'll think about possible Seven builds and post any ideas I get later.

[Another_Poet]

The urban aspect of the bard is pure fluff, and fan be reflavoured as the DM desires. Primitive societies have bards and certainly the fallen remains of a formerly great society would have many storytellers bringing hope to the people with tales of better times.

I was thinking just in terms of mechanical/balance concerns. A sorcerer is more powerful than a bard, and a sorcerer does better with age penalties than a bard does, so sorcerers should become available later than bards.

[notagain111]

In my opinion, sorcerer should be available in the first generation. This is due to the fact that sorcerers cast through talent as opposed to education. However, if you're looking to setup the generations for better balance with the age categories/levels stuff, i'd leave both bard and sorcerer out of the first generation.

Awesome concept.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

The urban aspect of the bard is pure fluff, and fan be reflavoured as the DM desires. Primitive societies have bards and certainly the fallen remains of a formerly great society would have many storytellers bringing hope to the people with tales of better times.

I was thinking just in terms of mechanical/balance concerns. A sorcerer is more powerful than a bard, and a sorcerer does better with age penalties than a bard does, so sorcerers should become available later than bards.

I was primarily thinking that (A) a primary arcane caster is most likely needed, and if you have the favored soul for divine you should have the sorcerer for arcane, and (B) the collapse of a kingdom would probably result in the loss of lots of knowledge, making bards-as-lorekeepers less likely. Yeah, it's kind of a stretch, but I still think bard should probably come later, as the classes get more complicated as generations progress--mostly "I hit things" classes and innately magical classes to begin, then sneaky/skilled/specialized types, then prepared casters.

[elliott20]

great feedback guys.

I've been mulling about the character level gap since last night and here's my brainstormed idea for it thus far. This will take some extended explanation so bear with me.
character leveling

When you create a new generation, you roll up a character whose experience is the same as the previous generation. Keep in mind, you must create the new character based on the parameters of the empire itself. That is, full casters are very much limited by the level of infrastructure available.

There is one problem with this in that at some point we might end up in a situation where the PC caster level just outstrips the parameter limit, making it a hard proposition to retire the old character and probably encourages people to make all the powerful classes with low level infrastructure elves.

This has given me impetus to bar long living races and maybe limiting the way that the mentor / apprentice program works.


Empire Management

your empire will have a number of attributes that helps you measure your empires capabilities. These will all start at 1 in the beginning
Economic Level: shows the economic strength of the empire. This is an abstract point for now just to keep it a manageable number. You use this buy new infrastructures and new improvements for your empire. As you gain more assets that builds your economic structure, this will go up as well.
Magic Tech: This denotes the state of the art magical research in the empire. This number will serve as the highest potential level full arcane caster you can have. So if your current character levels are around 10, but your magic tech is sitting on 4, the highest arcane caster level you can attain is 4, meaning the highest level arcane caster must be an arcane caster 4 / something else 6. Usually, this highest level character will be your party wizard.
Magic Infrastructure: this shows the widespread of your magical technology. The highest level means that you'll see magical items all over the place. Improve this and magical infrastructure can be VERY expensive, however.
Mundane Tech: this is about mundane technology level. As this rises, you can start creating better weaponry, more masterwork tools, etc.
Subterfuge: this shows how powerful your subterfuge / spy network is. When making gather info checks for your empire, you can use this number.
Martial Level: This denotes the over all quality of your warriors in the kingdom.
Religion: shows the development of religion in your empire. This also serves as a the level cap for your highest level divine caster. Much like magical tech, improving this requires extensive resource commitment. Again, the highest level character will usually be your party divine caster.
Culture: shows the level of cultural development in your country. Basically limits your artisan quality.


The crown of inheritance

In the original game, the emperor inherits the strength of all previous emperors before, making them the most powerful character at the player's disposal. the crown of inheritance is basically a lesser version of that.

When creating a new generation, the new emperor who receives the crown of inheritance can gestalt ONE class from the previous emperor. However, parameter limits must still be observed. I'll have to work out the kinks on that one.


As for classes available, hmm... you're right, I should maybe move the more sophisticated casters to later generations when the players have made steps to secure a source of magical talent.

the idea behind this is that I want to make sure that unless the players take steps to make a class available, it won't become available to them. Now, I'm going to give them lead ins as to WHERE and HOW they can make them available, but the choice is ultimately up to them.

i.e. one idea I had was for the martial adepts classes you would have to seek out schools / grandmasters to train the newer generations. Much like the apprentice/mentor concept people were talking about, you have to work to keep the art alive by having masters who can train the next generation of people. Usually, the masters themselves will be actual party members.

I also considered making the bard the "witness" character. The bard instead of being a standard bard, will be a bard who comes from a long line of stenographers for the empire and the keeper of imperial knowledge. There will always be at least one in each generation somewhere in the empire.

[elliott20]

Reconciling between the current PC level and future generation PC level

One of the problems with the current model is that we will come upon a weird situation where a full caster might be of a certain level, only for his next generation replacement to be forced to take a much lower level CL character due infrastructure constraints.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to make this work together well.

One schema I think might work is to allow the current generation mentor, if they have throughout the game spent the time to nurture an apprentice, to allow the apprentice in question be the exception to the infrastructure rule.

example:

The kingdom has a magic tech level of 7. But the current sorcerer character is level 12. (through adventuring and learning from other characters in the kingdom) This means that if we were to do a generation skip and he makes a new character with no associations, the maximum character level he can be is 12, but with only a maximum full caster level of 7.

Now, if the sorcerer in question has been training an apprentice throughout his generation, and has managed to survive long enough to make it to the generation jump, allow the apprentice to ALSO be a CL 12 caster but ONLY in the class that the mentor has. That is, the mentor may only pass along knowledge that he possesses, and he may only pass it on to his apprentice who he has been training. (Thus, the mentor usually will have to take a cohort or some such)

In terms of the Seven:

I'm considering of instead of making all of them actual builds, I might just write them up as monsters. But then I feel like their strength is harder to control when I do things this way.

There is also another problem: the players at lower levels would not be able to take on MOST of the Seven until much later in the campaign, and once they do they'll probably just bulldoze over them.

Now, I don't mind the heroes having to go through a build up period before they can take on any of the Seven. But I don't want them to have to put off fighting the Seven until they hit a level 20 generation.

I think what I might need then, is to do "snap shot" builds, where I showcase the Seven at different points in their power level. I think giving the Seven a minimum CL of 12 is a good start, and then we move up as we go.

Books available to me: Core, TOB, Libris Mortis. I'm not opposed to materials from OTHER books, but in that case that means I need to have access to them somehow or I need to fully understand how a particular material from another book works. My players do not own any books except core.

[elliott20]

Key points on the Seven

There portions of the Seven that considered their signature, and as such I would like to make sure they have abilities that can fulfill those functions.

Kujinshi: Goblin based (can add templates if needed), needs to be able to fight decently with a weapon, but also needs some life draining ability. (thus, if possible, I would like to include an energy drain ability somehow)

Wagnas: race needs to have flight as an ability. Being the most powerful member of the Seven, he will also be a full caster. He should be pretty simple to do. I'm also tempted to make him an unarmed arcane swordsage, and load him up with techniques that are basically really powerful spells.

Dantarg: race needs to have multiple legs, and he must be an ubercharger build. Beyond that, multi-weapon fighting skills would be a plus. Probably will end up with the pounce ability somewhere if possible. Is there some kind of race out there that is kind of like a half-rhino or something?

Bokuohn: As I've said before, he's more like a normal human who can control powerful marionettes and is also capable of controlling other human beings through his marionette strings. How he actually does this though I'm not sure. He can control people's physical actions but not their mental actions. As such, it limits his options a bit. I'm still not sure how this can be done with the 3.5 system.

Subier: A male cecaelia (half-human, half-octopus) that controls various minions in the ocean. First problem is figuring out what kind of half-aquatic giant monster race he can be, and then figuring out his actual build. His melee weapon of choice would be spears, nets, and other weapons traditionally associated with seafaring warriors. But he's also capable of commanding some elemental based powers. I think maybe make him a gish build, with SOME caster abilities.

Noel: Probably the easiest one since he's really just a humanoid capable of using powerful physical attacks. Make him a warblade, add maybe a template to make him not quite human, and I think we're good.

Rocbouquet: Mind control based boss. Like I mentioned earlier, maybe a diplomancer? What if we were to make her an illusion based caster? Are there classes and PrCs out there that specialize in mind control? I vaguely remember such a PrC in complete arcane, but I'm not sure how good the class actually is.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is a pretty cool idea. I'll just give you my impressions of the Seven based on what you wrote.


Kujinshi: A floating demon with a scarf covering his face, wielding a sword. He's supposed to a skilled swordsman but he's most fearsome ability is the Soul Steal, a technique that can instantly slay any living creature by devouring their souls. This I'm having a lot of problem coming a build for.

Not sure for this one. Maybe some kind of undead, like a vampire? You could make him a gish class, like Duskblade (from Player's Handbook II) if you want something simple. For the Soul Steal, you could give him a Slay Living spell-like ability 1/day and say it consumes the target's soul on a failed save.


Wagnas: A hero with both angelic and butterfly-like characteristics, the incredibly feminine looking Lord Wagnas is actually male. He enslaves the Iris race to do his bidding, and resides in a floating castle above the Eastern Kingdom. I figured with him I would make him a full caster with some kind of template with wings put on top. Not sure how to handle this yet.

Use the Half-Fey template from Fiend Folio to get butterfly wings, plus good stat adjustments and a few spell-like abilities. A charisma-based caster would be good with this template.


Dantarg: With features reminiscent of both elephants and sauropods as well as that of the mythical centaur, Lord Dantarg is one of the most physically powerful of the Seven. He terrorizes the migratory clans, and prefers devastating physical attacks. I figured I could just make him an ubercharger build.

I would say use a draconic or half-dragon centaur as the base creature, + ubercharger build. Draconic creature template is in Draconomicron.


Bokuohn: A puppeteer demon with an elderly appearance, Bokuohn is in control of the majority of the Seven Heroes' forces. Situated in the Steppes region, he owns a large landship, complete with an innumerable amount of slaves. His special technique, "Marionette," allows him to manipulate all party members. Not sure how I'd do this guy either.

Sounds like a psionic class to me. Like a psion (telepath). Check out the Thrallherd prestige class from the Expanded Psionics Handbook as an option.


Subier: A male cecaelia (half-human, half-octopus) that controls various minions in the ocean.

I have no idea for this one, but maybe there's something in Stormwrack that will be helpful?


Noel: A Swordsman who always keeps his word. Very powerful, with a strict code of honor. If you defeat Rocbouquet before you fight him, however, he becomes completely unwilling to compromise, and becomes unrelenting in combat. Probably the easiest to stat out since I can just go Warblade 20 and be done with it.

Warblade is good, but this just screams Knight to me. Knight is in Player's Handbook II. Not as good as Warblade, but very "Defender-y", plus it has a decent code of conduct. I'm always reminded of Rubicante from Final Fantasy IV, and how he always healed you before the fight.


Rocbouquet: The only female of the 7, she controls all the men in the Jungle villages. While there, she aspires to know the secret of a nearby temple. She is known for her ability to temptation which can cause characters to switch allegiance mid battle. She is also the sister of Lord Noel. Diplomancer maybe? Or maybe I can just make her a bard.

Sounds like a Succubus to me. Maybe with levels of Bard or Beguiler? Beguiler is from Player's Handbook II.

[elliott20]

thanks man!

I'll have to go look those up.

Noel is not supposed to be a "defender" type character, but more like an archetypal honorable wondering swordsmantype character. Plus, the Seven are all meant to be fairly powerful characters and as such I would lean towards optimizing them as much as I can so that they will remain a threat.

Plus, while honorable, Noel is not exactly the type with an outright code of conduct. But who knows? I'm not trying to model the world of RS2 as is. So maybe he COULD be a knight.

Kujinshi as a duskblade? that actually sounds like a pretty good way to go. It would fit his character pretty well.

hmm... I wonder if I should bother developing a more indepth history for each of the Seven or not.

I have also decided that early in the campaign, the players will start off the option to take the martial discipline feat if they so choose, though be barred from the martial adept class until at least a second or third generation.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, you can make him honorable and uber-Lawful without making him a Knight. That was just what popped into my head when I read the description.

Another thought was that you could give the female one levels in the Mindbender prestige class. I think it's in Complete Arcane. It's more about direct mind control, like charms and dominates, etc.

Anyway, I've never played Romancing SaGa (it's on the list with everything else), but I'm glad I could help!

[elliott20]

Mindbender would fit perfectly. I actually thought the thrallherd might work better for her at first but hmm... do you know if there is a limit as to the number of minions you can control with mindbender?

[KillianHawkeye]

Mindbender would fit perfectly. I actually thought the thrallherd might work better for her at first but hmm... do you know if there is a limit as to the number of minions you can control with mindbender?

Actually, not that many. It gets a permanent charm monster effect, but the number of charmed creatures is limited (maxing out at 4 by 10th level). It also gets a 1/day dominate, but it only lasts 24 hours. At 10th level, it can make it's dominate permanent on 1 creature, and it can still use it's 24 hour version. You can still use charm and dominate spells if you have them, of course, but the class only grants 5/10 spellcasting progression.

I think this prestige class works better for the puppetmaster-type guy than the seductress.

Personally, I like this class just for the 1 level dip to get 100 ft. telepathy. Works especially great on villains and other NPCs.

[elliott20]

hmm.. that actually sounds about right. so instead of say, wooden puppets, he would instead control just real warriors to do his bidding.

okay, got a to do list now. gotta secure these books.

[Mr.Moron]

Rocbouquet: The only female of the 7, she controls all the men in the Jungle villages. While there, she aspires to know the secret of a nearby temple. She is known for her ability to temptation which can cause characters to switch allegiance mid battle.


I'd really remove or change this part. It's fairly lame.

[elliott20]

I took it from wikipedia on the game. But I can see why that seems problematic.