Heavy caster nerfing

[Cicciograna]

For my next campaign I decided to nerf Wizards, Clerics and Druids, because Tier 1 classes are way too powerful. Reading UA, I noticed some rules that would do, and I made up some other changes: plese, give me your advice on my choices.

The first variant could look counterproductive: I decided to adopt the Skill Point variant from UA, to give casters more freedom and because I think that Vancian magic system sucks.

Wizards
Every Wizard MUST specialize: this bars many spells for the Wizard to take, while still giving a decent choice. I will adopt Variant Specializations rules from UA to add more flavour to the game. Furthermore, I decided that every Wizard receives a -2 penality on their ST against their prohibited schools: this should prevent every Wizard to choose always the same schools *COUGH*...Enchantment and Evocation...*COUGH* as prohibited.

Clerics
Cloistered Cleric variant from UA is adopted, with the add-on of prayerbooks (just as Wizards' spellbooks, only for prayers).

Druids
Each Druid must choose between Wild Form and Animal Companion. In the former case, no Natural Spell feat.

Sorcerers
Sorcerers do not exist in my campaign.

Initial available spells are those from Core. But since I like many spells from splatbook, I decided to adopt the solution proposed by someone on this forum, to have them be "rare spells", meaning that they exist, but that only few people have mastered them. For example, only a handful of Good-aligned temples know Remedy moderate wounds, only Elminster knows Elminster Effulgent Epuration and the like (spells taken from Magic of Faerun).

Tell me what you think, give me some advice. These variations are not in any way official for my campaign, and are passible of change.

[BobVosh]

Wizards
Every Wizard MUST specialize: this bars many spells for the Wizard to take, while still giving a decent choice. I will adopt Variant Specializations rules from UA to add more flavour to the game. Furthermore, I decided that every Wizard receives a -2 penality on their ST against their prohibited schools: this should prevent every Wizard to choose always the same schools *COUGH*...Enchantment and Evocation...*COUGH* as prohibited.

Um. The reason most people drop those is that the spells aren't so effective. -2 ST vs a school with damage or SoD? I would rather fail against damage. Also mind blank still stops enchantment dead.

[Melamoto]

Remove any spells which kill an entire school of magic, e.g. Energy Immunity, Mind Blank, True Seeing, etc.
And make Teleport and Dimension Door have a long casting time (1 minute or so).
And no Celerity. Or Moment of Prescience. Or Contingency. Or Shadow <School>. Or Wind Wall. Or Fly. Or Overland Flight. Or Mindrape. Or Gate. Or Persist Spell. Or Polymorph. Or Polymorph any Object. Or Shapechange.
Pretty much.

[evil-frosty]

If you put a long casting time on dim door you're ruining the purpose of the spell. It is suppose to be a quick short range get away. Now maybe you shouldnt let the wizard cast it like in a grapple as that just doesnt make sense him being able to do that.

[nysisobli]

tier one classes? LOL i played a truenamer that easily killed an epic mage, as well as a monk that took down a druid. With no maximizing. The whole these classes are overpowered depends on the other party members. I have never had a problem with a wizard breaking my game, and i have 2 people in my group that optimize to extreme levels.

[Melamoto]

i played a truenamer that easily killed an epic mage,

An epic mage? Normal I can understand, but this requires an explanation.

[Salt_Crow]

So the only nerf that clerics got is the requirement for a prayerbook, but gets to play a more powerful version of themselves?

Also: it'd be better off just to use Archivist-like spellcasting system with the base still being a standard cleric. Cloistered Cleric's considered a favourable alternative by many.

[Tempest Fennac]

A friend of mine is testing 1 system they came up with where the spellcaster has infinite use of spells, but they have to roll 1d10 and add half of their casting stat to see if they cast a spell with the DC being 5+spell's level+spell's level-1 squared. Rolling a 1 results in an Insanity point being gained while rolling a double when using multiple dice, with 1 being gained every 5 levels, results in a Mutation, http://gaiainna.wikidot.com/list-of-mutations-by-the-dark-ones , which can only be removed through a difficult quest. I'm testing it at the minute by using a core-only Halfling Wizard using Elite Array for stats and it seems to be working reasonably well so far (I haven't got any mutations or insanity points yet).

I know the system makes things awkward for Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters, but it could be worth trying something like this. (Metamagic costs raise the DC according to how much they cost to apply, and Wizards don't need to study their spell book if they don't want to change spells).

[Doc Roc]

Ban all non-spontaneous casters, timestop, and stop at ECL 13. Use the ToS fix-pack, and then we'll talk. Seriously, this "fix" sounds like a briar patch to me.

Full of tasty tasty berries for casters.

[nysisobli]

I scouted ahead, the bbeg was a dark elf wizard, i busted out a seize item spell on his spell book. Curious to as it went he used detect magic to find me, i busted out a greater reversed word of nuturing on him. He blasted off a quickened disintegrate, followed by a regular one. I popped him with a reversed sensory focus, blinding and deafening him, reversed singular mind and ordered him to stand still.

Coup d grace =) truenamer ftw

[olentu]

I scouted ahead, the bbeg was a dark elf wizard, i busted out a seize item spell on his spell book. Curious to as it went he used detect magic to find me, i busted out a greater reversed word of nuturing on him. He blasted off a quickened disintegrate, followed by a regular one. I popped him with a reversed sensory focus, blinding and deafening him, reversed singular mind and ordered him to stand still.

Coup d grace =) truenamer ftw

That was not a very good epic mage.

[Doc Roc]

I'll second that. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116469)is a rough estimate of what should have happened to you. I was playing softball too.
I want to make this perfectly clear. Epic mages are death incarnate for anything non-epic.


And Eurus was remarkably well-prepared.

[AstralFire]

and i have 2 people in my group that optimize to extreme levels.

And if you believe that, I have a perfectly balanced Kobold in Sarrukh to sell you.

[Doc Roc]

You know I often mix up alter self and alter form by accident in searches? Hilarity ensues.

Man, so Ice Assassin, am I right?

[nysisobli]

see, i state my opinion, and you have to pick it a part. You ever think i caught someone unprepared?

[Doc Roc]

:: snaps! ::
Yes, I have to pick it apart. I don't doubt you'd do the same to me in a heartbeat. Instead, delightful ad hominem attacks. Unprepared casters don't make it to freaking epic levels. Contingencies are trivially easy to keep up. Maybe if you'd caught him after a tremendous battle, or a great war. But even then, contingent celerity into word of recall. Poof.

[nysisobli]

An not everyone has to maximize everything out the ass, i play the game for fun =)


But you ever think that not every one on the internet isnt an obscene jackass? I won't pick something apart i might just state something?

[kamikasei]

a) Your first post in the thread certainly gave the impression you were citing your personal experience in this matter as evidence that wizards are not so powerful, since you once beat one.

b) What's wrong with picking apart someone's argument? (For that matter, do you really want to imply that anyone who does so is an "obscene jackass"?)

[Mr.Moron]

Wizard)
Forcing Wizards to specialize and take those familiar replacements are not penalties, that's forcing them to optimize.

The saving throws is a penalty, but not major one. Certainly not one that'll discourge the barring of the schools people normally do. People drop those schools because their effects represent the least potent threats.

Cleric)
Cloistered Cleric is arguably the better choice for any cleric not trying to to be a primary melee combatant.

The prayer book thing is a major setback, but if Archivists can make do... so can clerics.


Druid)
A nerf yes, but less of one than those commonly used. Still a prepared caster.

Sorcerer)
Sorcerers are not as powerful as wizards. Why ban them when you haven't reduced wizard power any?

[Doc Roc]

I don't know how to respond to this, frankly. Maybe we should get the thread back on topic.

Suggested nerfs:
Cut into caster's access to action economy, or increase its availability for non-casters.
Move some of the spell subschools around.
Seriously. Ban wizards.

[FlawedParadigm]

I've seen worse. Try mixing up "Alter Self" and "Altar Self" in character.

You guessed it. First time he tried to cast the spell, he did indeed become an altar. He got better, though. And fixed the error. I couldn't pass that up though.

[AstralFire]

An not everyone has to maximize everything out the ass, i play the game for fun =)

That's great. That's a great way to play. No sarcasm. I am genuinely happy for you; you seem to enjoy your campaigns, and you have fun with a class that many of us cannot enjoy. However, you are in a discussion of balance. If you're not concerned with balance, then... how are you and your DM's experiences very relevant?

Comparison; my mother does not eat chicken due to a traumatic experience seeing chickens getting slaughtered when she was young. We are having a conversation on what food we can substitute for her because tonight we are being catered by McPablo's World of Chickencraft. Someone bursts in and suggests the Orange Chicken Burger, because if you don't have traumatic experiences tied to the slaughter of farmfowl, it tastes great.

What benefit has this person lended to finding out an effective food substitute for my mother?

[kamikasei]

I'm surprised no one's gone with the "remove core casters and replace them with psionics and maybe Binders" option yet.

Non-core casters could still be allowed, they're not so bad for the most part (powerful, but not all things to all encounters). Excepting Archivist and Artificer, I suppose.

[Doc Roc]

I've seen worse. Try mixing up "Alter Self" and "Altar Self" in character.

You guessed it. First time he tried to cast the spell, he did indeed become an altar. He got better, though. And fixed the error. I couldn't pass that up though.

Made. Of. Win.

+ 1 cookie.

[Doc Roc]

I'm surprised no one's gone with the "remove core casters and replace them with psionics and maybe Binders" option yet.

Non-core casters could still be allowed, they're not so bad for the most part (powerful, but not all things to all encounters). Excepting Archivist and Artificer, I suppose.

I love that option, but that's sort of the thermonuclear selection.

I was playing with a cool idea though:

What if we had a world where everyone was a druid, wildshape ranger, or an adept?

[AstralFire]

I love that option, but that's sort of the thermonuclear selection.

I was playing with a cool idea though:

What if we had a world where everyone was a druid, wildshape ranger, or an adept?

My first thought is that this a campaign that needs to be set in Mythical Ireland.

[Mr.Moron]

I don't know how to respond to this, frankly. Maybe we should get the thread back on topic.

Suggested nerfs:
Cut into caster's access to action economy, or increase its availability for non-casters.
Move some of the spell subschools around.
Seriously. Ban wizards.

Oh, right. Being helpful.

This is what I've done.

-Spontaneous Casters/Limited Spell List casters only
-No Save-or-Die
-No "No Save, Just Suck"
-No Action-Granting Spells (or other abilties for that matter)
-No Polymorph Line
-No spells that grant immunity to an entire class of effects. (Freedom of Movement & Mind Blank are out. Energy Immunity is OK. Protection from Alignment... just barely OK.)
-A catch-all "Any spell that generally does anything similar to what I've banned is also banned, even if I missed a specific entry in the list)

-All Melee use Tome of Battle by default, just to help close the gap further.

I admit I'm still afraid of caster power at later levels.

[Doc Roc]

Something close to that. Imagine a world where literally, nature has been bent into submission or whipped into an unholy fervor, with little to no ground between the two. Disputes are settled by ritualized summoning duels, or wild-shape battles.

Can't tell me you wouldn't jump at a chance to play.



-Spontaneous Casters/Limited Spell List casters only
-No Save-or-Die
-No "No Save, Just Suck"
-No Action-Granting Spells (or other abilties for that matter)
-No Polymorph Line
-A catch-all "Any spell that generally does anything similar to what I've banned is also banned, even if I missed a specific entry in the list)

-All Melee use Tome of Battle by default, just to help close the gap further

I take it a step further and eliminate all ninth level spells or cap the game at 16 with no fast progression classes allowed except for rebuilding.

[kamikasei]

What if we had a world where everyone was a druid, wildshape ranger, or an adept?

There would have to be at least one Crusader though. How else would Colbert save us from the rampant bears?

For srs, though, that would be... interesting. Actually no, it would be really weird. It would certainly do something for balance, given that there would be no Swiss Army Wizards and only Druidzillas rather than Clericzillas, but it's much more a totally different kind of game than it is a fix for anything (which I assume is intentional).

[AstralFire]

Something close to that. Imagine a world where literally, nature has been bent into submission or whipped into an unholy fervor, with little to no ground between the two. Disputes are settled by ritualized summoning duels, or wild-shape battles.

Can't tell me you wouldn't jump at a chance to play.

I actually wouldn't, since none of those classes interest me mechanically. (Don't like shapeshifting or Vancian casting.)

I would, however, jump at a chance to read transcripts! :D

If you write up a campaign setting for this, I would love to read it. But I don't want to derail the thread more.

[Hida Reju]

Most of this I have said one time or another.

If you want wizards to be more on par with other classes then remove it all together and replace them with

Warmage CAr
Dread Necromancer HoH
Beguiler PHB2

This gives you a spell list choice that is fixed while still being powerful it is restricted enough to keep things within reason.

Next for Clerics do 2 things,
1. Remove divine metamagic as feat all together.
2. Remove the Spells Divine Power and Rightious Might from the Cleric main list. Leave them in the Domain lists they appear in usuable no more than once per day.

There with that gone now Clerics lose the 2 biggest buff spells for melee they get most of the time. No more instant CoDzilla with 2 spells all day long with Divine Metamagic.

Druids Pick any two
Spell Casting
Animal Companion
Wild Shape

Drop Natural Spell as a feat all together.
Still powerful but not as insane.

[Doc Roc]

Errr....
List-casters.... have... their own power level problems.
I know that Tshern favors a beguiler, which terrifies me.

Does your system create new list casters for each school that it currently renders wholly inaccessible except through strong kung fu?

[Kaihaku]

If you want to nerf them, I'd say make a ruling that a character can't have more active magical effects on them than their HD (including or excluding items as you decide). So they have to make a hard choice between Stoneskin or Invisibility. I would also put a limitation on instantaneous spellcasting and possible casting time in general.


Every Wizard MUST specialize: this bars many spells for the Wizard to take, while still giving a decent choice. I will adopt Variant Specializations rules from UA to add more flavour to the game.

I like this.


Furthermore, I decided that every Wizard receives a -2 penalty on their ST against their prohibited schools: this should prevent every Wizard to choose always the same schools *COUGH*...Enchantment and Evocation...*COUGH* as prohibited.

Not so much a fan. If you want to get them to make different choices I think something like the wheel of magic 2E had would do the trick. Then their specialization determines their barred school.


Cloistered Cleric variant from UA is adopted, with the add-on of prayerbooks (just as Wizards' spellbooks, only for prayers).

I like this. Though I generally think the CC variant is on par with the standard Cleric. If you want to nerf them, you should do something about Divine Metamagic.


Each Druid must choose between Wild Form and Animal Companion. In the former case, no Natural Spell feat.

Helps I suppose. But then, aside from Planar Shepherd, I've never thought Druids as being in much need of nerfing. They have a nice handful of tricks but aside from those they're pretty limited.


Sorcerers do not exist in my campaign.

Tsk, a pity.

[Curmudgeon]

Cloistered Cleric is arguably the better choice for any cleric not trying to to be a primary melee combatant.
Actually, the CC is the best choice for a primary melee combatant -- with Knowledge Devotion, Divine Power (of course), and maybe a domain that gives Vampiric Touch to boost hit points.

[Mr.Moron]

I take it a step further and eliminate all ninth level spells or cap the game at 16 with no fast progression classes allowed except for rebuilding.

Certainly not unreasonable. However, as a player I admit I'm an Optimizer and frankly a bit of Power Gamer too. That side of me acts as this annoying little voice that keeps me from restricting things I probably should.

Honestly I almost came down with "No Casters". However I was too lazy to come up with a whole new way to refluff arcane & divine magic both of which I wanted themeatically. I couldn't just reskin psionics since I'm already using psionics as psionics.

[Tempest Fennac]

That sort of high nature campaign would be neat. Woudn't the Gleaner be better then Adepts here, though?

[Hida Reju]

Errr....
List-casters.... have... their own power level problems.
I know that Tshern favors a beguiler, which terrifies me.

Does your system create new list casters for each school that it currently renders wholly inaccessible except through strong kung fu?

No, but some spells are made available with the use of the Extra Spell feat with a ruling that I lets you add something permanently to your spell list.

Also adapting advanced learning to work for the other list classes like the Warmage is nice.

[FlawedParadigm]

Although...I suppose I could have just dropped an altar on him...hmm...

Oh, right, topic.

I was thinking, perhaps...did anyone do something like a Final Fantasy style Blue Mage in 3.5? Cooking up something like that might make for a very interesting mage-take, where you have total control over the power level (since you'd choose what monster abilities were available for learning). Plus, they either need to survive such an attack first, or if you're feeling generous, at least just see it in use.

Of course, you probably need some limiting factor beyond however many times/day the original monster could do it, since there's probably some at-will powers you wouldn't mind the PC getting...just not at-will. Maybe a magic point system, where the MP cost is equal to the DC of the ability, maybe 10 MP per level, or Con score MP per level? (I figure Con would be the casting stat of a class who learns it abilities by getting kicked in the junk...)

But er...yeah. Anyone brew up such a class yet?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sorcerers
Sorcerers do not exist in my campaign.


Because...?

[Doc Roc]

There is such a class. Sec.

Here. It's not perfect, but it's some of the better homebrew around. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=137596)

Here is an optimization guide. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1167822)

[Kallisti]

I did something like that a while back in combination with a 2e-ish divine spheres system. Depending on where you studied and/or who you apprenticed with, you learned more or less of the theory behind certain schools or thematic spell groupings, so you wouldn't be "Joe, the Conjurer" you'd be "Joe, wizard of the Aerithian Academy with a Journeyman's degree in Fire and Creation magic and a Master's in Summoning." An Apprentice's degree got you access to 1st-3rd level spells (everyone knowing all cantrips by default), Journeyman's access to 4th-5th level spells, Master's access to 6th-7th level spells, and Magister's access to 8th-9th level spells.

You chose a certain set of ratings at character creation and could improve them later with practice and certain PrCs. It worked out fairly well mechanically, the players liked it, and it introduced plenty of flavor for academic rivalries, secret traditions, and so on.

Could something like that work for you? Because I was just in a nearly-identical "Nerf the Wizard!" thread, and that sounded like a good plan...

Or just bring back the 2.0 casting times system...

[Faulty]

-Spontaneous Casters/Limited Spell List casters only
-No Save-or-Die
-No "No Save, Just Suck"
-No Action-Granting Spells (or other abilties for that matter)
-No Polymorph Line
-No spells that grant immunity to an entire class of effects. (Freedom of Movement & Mind Blank are out. Energy Immunity is OK. Protection from Alignment... just barely OK.)
-A catch-all "Any spell that generally does anything similar to what I've banned is also banned, even if I missed a specific entry in the list)

I agree with this generally. I like how Pathfinder replaced the polymorph line with a series of spells that gave you a set of abilities and stat changes to choose from, but let you pick your own shape. So for example, Giant Shape I or whatever, let you choose a large giant to look like, and gave you a static boost to strength, etc and the ability to throw rocks.

I think a lot of spells should have full round casting times. I also thinking casting defensively should either not exist, require the Combat Casting feat to do (and give it a prereq of something like 8 ranks in Spellcraft, 8 ranks in Concentration, and 8 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana)), or be a lot harder. Or any mix.

I was thinking of not allowing Wizards to specialize, and then have the specialty Wizards be prestige classes enterable at 6.


-All Melee use Tome of Battle by default, just to help close the gap further.

Or a homebrew that grants melee similar abilities.

[Mr.Moron]

Or a homebrew that grants melee similar abilities.


Hence "Default". I'm open to all content, official, 3rd party or otherwise. Players are welcome to bring me a feat or class they create themselves and ask "Can I Use This?". However Tome of Battle is something officially published that I can point to and say "This".

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Could something like that work for you? Because I was just in a nearly-identical "Nerf the Wizard!" thread, and that sounded like a good plan...

Darn it, beat me to posting my own words! But yes, restricting magic by a more granular determinant than spell school adds a bit more flavor while fixing the "everyone chooses/bans the same schools" problem.

[Faulty]

Hence "Default". I'm open to all content, official, 3rd party or otherwise. Players are welcome to bring me a feat or class they create themselves and ask "Can I Use This?"*. However Tome of Battle is something officially published that I can point to and say "This".

Yeah. I have a load of ideas floating around for a 3.75 type thing. I feel like I'm a tad convulated in it, but oh well. As far as casters and psionics go, my current ideas for revisions and changes to current core classes:

-Wizard: changes mentioned pretty much. Also, a way to reconcile a limited number of spells known with the archetype of the Wizard carting around a spell book: Wizards, unlike Sorcerers, have no innate connection to magic, and can only half learn spells, engraining them in their mind partially, and requiring a spell book to complete the spell, "chambering" it for use. So Wizards would have a limited "spells known" list and have to prepare. Or they could cast out of the book.
-Sorcerer: Seed based. Either spontaneous like the d20 Rebirth thing, but with a number of changes, or the Sorcerer being able to create custom spells upon reaching a new level.
-Psion/Wilder/Psychic Warrior: The latter Sorcerer idea. Basically, psionic characters gain access to seeds, and can craft their own powers out of it, every time they gain a new power known. Sort of playing on the fluff of psionics coming from the self, and not outside.
-Druid: something similar to the PHB II varient. No animal companion, natural spell and wild shape; specific shapes instead, with choices out of a list of abilities to have.

Still undecided on Bard and Cleric.

[Omegonthesane]

Was just looking at this... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargemagic.htm) How much does it do to counter game-breaking Wizard cheese?

I'd imagine it makes Wizards more OP if they are being played reasonably, but never being able to cast 9th level spells twice a round should help matters a tiny bit.

Especially if you make the following houserule about Time Stop, assuming you don't simply remove it: "For all intents and purposes when casting Time Stop, 'the next round' is the round after Time Stop finishes. For example you would not be able to Celerity, Time Stop, and spend a time-stopped round stunned instead of a real round stunned." This would fit the flavour more as it's sort of temporary Uber-Haste AFAIAC.

[Lapak]

Or just bring back the 2.0 casting times system...I've been banging this around in my head lately, and I think it resolves a LOT of issues with the combat system in addition to being a significant nerf to casters. You have to take away all spells that grant extra actions, but it could be really effective. I think I may put together another post talking through this idea later today.

[Gnomo]

Make all spellcasters and manifesters recover a number of spell slots and power points per full rest equal to those granted by the class, but not those granted by extra features such as a high ability score, feats or items.

[Faulty]

I've been banging this around in my head lately, and I think it resolves a LOT of issues with the combat system in addition to being a significant nerf to casters. You have to take away all spells that grant extra actions, but it could be really effective. I think I may put together another post talking through this idea later today.

I'd appreciate that. I'm curious.

[Lapak]

I'd appreciate that. I'm curious.Over here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119855) I'd be interested in your input.

[Kemper Boyd]

I just use the E6 rules. Not having casters get spells above level 3 balances them out pretty well and direct damage spells become more viable options.

[Dr_Emperor]

I've been compiling a list of rules for this for my own game

Class rulings
Druid has to trade wildshape away for either players handbook 2 or unearthed arcana replacement. I think I was letting a few of the wildshape feats in complete divine count somehow in the unearthed arcana way.

Monk: wisdom times per day is added to once a day/week abilities or once per encounter

Paladin: casts based of charisma, and gets 1 domain, and cha extra smites, or smites per encounter

Bloodlines can be bought off as per level adjustment buy off sorcerers pay half the experience if they are straight classed

General rules
Pathfinder spells are in effect nothing else from there though, melee characters with 2 skill points per level get four with some skills combined, no persistant, no power attacking touch attacks, save or dies casting times changed to one round

[Eldariel]

I've been banging this around in my head lately, and I think it resolves a LOT of issues with the combat system in addition to being a significant nerf to casters. You have to take away all spells that grant extra actions, but it could be really effective. I think I may put together another post talking through this idea later today.

I did something like that here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105132) a long while ago after half a year of thinking on how to implement it. I think I got something pretty good in there.

[Cicciograna]

Okay, many answers.


A friend of mine is testing 1 system they came up with where the spellcaster has infinite use of spells, but they have to roll 1d10 and add half of their casting stat to see if they cast a spell with the DC being 5+spell's level+spell's level-1 squared. Rolling a 1 results in an Insanity point being gained while rolling a double when using multiple dice, with 1 being gained every 5 levels, results in a Mutation, http://gaiainna.wikidot.com/list-of-mutations-by-the-dark-ones , which can only be removed through a difficult quest. I'm testing it at the minute by using a core-only Halfling Wizard using Elite Array for stats and it seems to be working reasonably well so far (I haven't got any mutations or insanity points yet).

I often thought about a "check mechanic" for Magic, but as my players are really, REALLY, REALLY slow to throw dices, I immediately dropped this idea, even if it could be good.


So the only nerf that clerics got is the requirement for a prayerbook, but gets to play a more powerful version of themselves?
Also: it'd be better off just to use Archivist-like spellcasting system with the base still being a standard cleric. Cloistered Cleric's considered a favourable alternative by many.
I think that a prayerbook is a heavy setback for Clerics: if I'll be strict on money spent on spells (and I will...), it's gonna be a pain to pay for all the useful spells...
For what concerns Cloistered Cleric, it seemed to me a good idea, because all the Clerics previously played by my players were buffers and debuffers, instead being killing machines (this was BEFORE I got ToB...), so I thought that a less combat-oriented Cleric would have a minor appeal to my PC. BTW, on a second glance, CC seems really powerful...
I don't know anything about Archivists.


Wizard)
Forcing Wizards to specialize and take those familiar replacements are not penalties, that's forcing them to optimize.
The saving throws is a penalty, but not major one. Certainly not one that'll discourge the barring of the schools people normally do. People drop those schools because their effects represent the least potent threats.

Personally, I like familiars. I wouldn't choose the option to substitute my familiar with another power, because I like the idea of having a magical servant and friend like a familiar; an optimizer I am not, so I tought that this was a nice rule.
The saving throw can be worsened: instead of -2, be it a -5, that really hurts...


I'm surprised no one's gone with the "remove core casters and replace them with psionics and maybe Binders" option yet.
Non-core casters could still be allowed, they're not so bad for the most part (powerful, but not all things to all encounters). Excepting Archivist and Artificer, I suppose.
No. I really like Wizards, Clerics and Druids, and I won't substitute them: I don't even know where to find Binders, Archivists and Artificers :smallredface:



-All Melee use Tome of Battle by default, just to help close the gap further.

So it is. Banned Fighter and Paladin, added ToB classes. Barbarian can live, Rangers are in only for their archery style.


Most of this I have said one time or another.
If you want wizards to be more on par with other classes then remove it all together and replace them with
Warmage CAr
Dread Necromancer HoH
Beguiler PHB2
This gives you a spell list choice that is fixed while still being powerful it is restricted enough to keep things within reason.

No, for the previous reason.



Next for Clerics do 2 things,
1. Remove divine metamagic as feat all together.
2. Remove the Spells Divine Power and Rightious Might from the Cleric main list. Leave them in the Domain lists they appear in usuable no more than once per day.
There with that gone now Clerics lose the 2 biggest buff spells for melee they get most of the time. No more instant CoDzilla with 2 spells all day long with Divine Metamagic.

Druids Pick any two
Spell Casting
Animal Companion
Wild Shape
Drop Natural Spell as a feat all together.

Interesting. Especially Druids' part.


Because...?
Because I don't like Sorcerers, it's only a matter of taste. BTW, using the Spell Point variant, a Sorcerer is less peculiar...

By the way, I'd really like to thank you all, the ones I quoted and the ones I didn't, for your support and your help. You've been really helpful:thank you very much.

[Mr.Moron]

The saving throw can be worsened: instead of -2, be it a -5, that really hurts...


No matter how much you drive up that save penalty it's never going to have the effect you intend it to have, which is changing the schools wizards specialize in. Taking a bigger hit to a given school doesn't change the relative value of which schools you choose to take that hit in.


If you really want to tone down wizards, do the opposite of what you've done. Ban wizards. Take Sorcerer, make it INT based. Change "Spells Known" to "Spell Book Size". Throw in a bit of fluff about magic writings being inherently magical themselves. They get unstable if crammed together in a tighter space the skill of the writer allows. Additionally, this instability means that every caster leaves certain subtle personal variances in his formulas, like a distinct signature. If the same signature is kept in different storage devices (spellbooks) the greater web of magic in the world renders the weaker of the two ineffective.

Or something.

Trying to trim away at the edges while leaving the prepared caster core just isn't going to work without penalties that get into the un-fun zone.

EDIT:
Spontaneous casters are easier to deal with because they have a fixed list of spells known and what they can do at any point doesn't change while they're in the same level. The wizard can have a huge spell book and choose from a far greater number of spells known on any given day making planning around it a nightmare.

EDIT(AGAIN):

Clerics are better off replaced by favored souls (Complete Divine). They can easily be made to have the exact same fluff/feel of clerics, while still being somewhat more subdued power-wise. Meaning you get an easier time of balancing things, without giving up the fluff you love.

EDIT(# 3):


Personally, I like familiars. I wouldn't choose the option to substitute my familiar with another power, because I like the idea of having a magical servant and friend like a familiar; an optimizer I am not, so I tought that this was a nice rule.


Except any arcane caster who doesn't a familiar can get one with a single feat (Complete Arcane). You only lose out on your lil' buddy until you get a chance to take that feat, if you really want one.

[FlawedParadigm]

Hey Tidesinger...interesting link. Small problem though.


If a creature ability does not duplicate a spell effect (such as Mind Blast for an Illithid), the Blue Mage cannot learn it.


So...it's a Blue Mage, except it's the exact opposite of the point of a Blue Mage, which is learning skills the players would not elsewise have access to. It's like the Anti-Blue Mage. You'd also think they'd end up with good Fort saves, since getting kicked in the junk is their job description.


Turquoise Efficiency (Ex): The Blue Mage has learned the art of thrift. Whenever a Blue Mage learns a spell, he or she can conserve the energy involved in its casting and gains a temporary spell slot for the sole use of the spell just learned. This spell slot is fleeting, and only remains for a number of rounds equal to the Blue Mage's level divided by 5.


This...this is the *Mime* ability. I mean...this isn't a bad class (from a power perspective) in and of itself, but...it's as close to being a Blue Mage as Redcloak is to being an Umber Hulk. And the balance issues...wow. So a 20th level Blue Mage is basically a Sorceror that knows any 100 (+int mod) spells from any spell lists he wants, ever. Yes, they're at the mercy of what the DM throws at them, but the potential is...wow. Admittedly, you don't get to learn passives until level 15, and since you need to interact with the spell effects for a round per spell level, you'll never learn stuff like Time Stop (pre-Epic, anyhow)...but still.

Ow, my brain.

[Doc Roc]

Yeah, remember, I stop my games at ECL 13.