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GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-29, 08:48 AM
I'm pretty sure there's some the list missed, even excluding homebrew. Put your favorite homebrew and any non-homebrew the list missed onto the tier list!

Original tier list:
Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner
From here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=21479288d97bd2362f44db54c483bd 58&topic=1002.0).

Yours:
1-Surrealistik's remade Sorceror (post 56)
2-Ardent?, Bio-Mage (post 81)?, Shaman (OA), Spirit Shaman, Tempest Fennac's Adept (post 4), Wilder?, Wu Jen
3-Ardent?, Bio-Mage (extended campaign, post 81)?, Dragonfire Adept, Dragon Shaman?, ghost_warlock's Primal Savant (sig), ghost_warlock's Shadowmage (sig), lesser_minion's remade Soulknife (post 28), OW4's remade Paladin (post 27)?, PId6's remade Soulknife (post 28), Wilder?
4-Dragon Shaman?, ghost_warlock's Brigand (sig), Incarnate, Kensai?, Lurk?, OW4's remade Paladin (post 27)?, Shujena, Totemist, Wilder?
5-Kensai?, Lurk?, Rokugan Courtier, Sohei, Soulborn
6-None yet
Don't forget prestige classes!

Eloel
2009-07-29, 09:09 AM
Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

Indon
2009-07-29, 09:20 AM
Totemist, Incarnate - Tier 4
Soulborn - Tier 5

Tempest Fennac
2009-07-29, 09:21 AM
I'm not sure where the PC version of the Adept class I made would go; http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5284212#post5284212 (I'd guess at Tier 2).

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-29, 09:27 AM
Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

Wrong. Tier 2 means: Capable of doing everything a Tier 1 character is capable of, but in slightly more limited portions. DFA with Metabreath Feats is no higher than mid-Tier 3.


Want to know why? Because they can't use a class feature to produce an entire plane of existence. Anything the DFA can do, the Sorcerer/Wilder/Psion can do more efficiently. The only advantage the DFA has is endurance.


Totemist, Incarnate - Tier 4
Soulborn - Tier 5

The Soulborn is not stronger than a Soulknife...

Indon
2009-07-29, 09:32 AM
The Soulborn is not stronger than a Soulknife...

Soulknife is also tier 5, what are you talking about?

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-29, 09:34 AM
The Soulborn is not stronger than a Soulknife...

Soulknifes aren't tier 6, are they? I mean, FREE +10 effective enhancement bonus or so weapons by level 20, changing free? It's not on the same tier as commoners. It's AT LEAsT as powerful as a monk, probably more since its weapons are enhanced for free, etc.
Edit: Ninja'd.

Indon
2009-07-29, 09:36 AM
I've not played with the class, but from what I know of it, I'd put Kensai at tier 4. Thoughts?

Edit: Maybe tier 5, tier 4 when combined exploitatively with Monk unarmed strike...

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 12:06 PM
Soulknifes aren't tier 6, are they? I mean, FREE +10 effective enhancement bonus or so weapons by level 20, changing free? It's not on the same tier as commoners. It's AT LEAsT as powerful as a monk, probably more since its weapons are enhanced for free, etc.
Edit: Ninja'd.

Monk, however, gets better DR overcoming options. (Lawful, adamantine)
Soulknife is stuck at Magic. It's better than nothing. (And a Keen soulbreaker Mind Blade can be useful.)

Draz74
2009-07-29, 12:13 PM
Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

Even without Metabreath, DFA is Tier 3. At least if some of his other standard tricks are allowed (e.g. Entangling Exhalation, which is technically not Metabreath).

Without Entangling Exhalation, yeah, he might drop to Tier 4. But with it ... I'd say he's a strong T3 with Metabreath, and a weak T3 without Metabreath.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:41 PM
Soulknife is tier six.

Name three classes that would make you want to play a soulknife. Go on, try. All I got is complete warrior samurai.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 12:45 PM
Care to explain that a little more, Tide? I mean, Soulknives are clearly near the bottom, but I always figured the ability to do mental ability damage made them keep pace with the monk.

Augmented Lurk
2009-07-29, 12:48 PM
Ardent: Tier 2 or 3
Wu Jen: Tier 2
Spirit Shaman: Tier 2
Wilder: Tier 3 or 4
Shugenja: Tier 4
OA Shaman: Tier 2
Sohei: Tier 5
Lurk: Tier 4 or 5

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:53 PM
Their DCs are miserable thanks to their soul-crushingly bad MAD. And there are no feats to fix that. I personally consider the core monk to be Tier five or so, but I am NOT getting into that debate.

Soulknives basically got borked three ways:

Bad initial class design.
Lack of serious support or augmentation. There's one PrC for soulknife.
No ability to itemize efficiently.

Now, if you allow soul-bow, and look at soulknife as a vestigial stage leading into soulbow, that's a hell of a lot better. In that case, yes, I can name three classes that make me want to dip soulknife to get into its cool and fancy PrC.


Ardents, well built by those with strong kung-fu, can perform in the Tier 1 range, in my opinion. I've seen PhaedrusXY do things that broke me.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 12:54 PM
Oh. Saves would do it. For some reason I remembered it as straight ability damage, no save.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:54 PM
Let me go check. Fun Fun Fun.

No save, but it eats his move action and it's a 13th level ability.

Oh yeah and:
"Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. "

Since Knife to the Soul runs off available damage dice from psychic strike...............

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 12:55 PM
Lack of serious support or augmentation. There's one PrC for soulknife.

Two.

Illumine Soul is the PrC Right before Soulbow.


Beginning at 13th level, when a soulknife executes a psychic strike, he can choose to substitute Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage (his choice) for extra dice of damage. For each die of extra damage he gives up, he deals 1 point of damage to the ability score he chooses. A soulknife can combine extra dice of damage and ability damage in any combination.

The soulknife decides which ability score his psychic strike damages and the division of ability damage and extra dice of damage when he imbues his mind blade with the psychic strike energy.

Looks like it's straight ability damage to me.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 12:57 PM
Is it any good? If so, book\page please?

Yeah, just corrected myself. It doesn't work on enemies immune to mind-affecting abilities which makes it completely worthless at 13th.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 12:58 PM
Oof. I remembered the move action bit, but not the mind-affecting bit.

Soulknife makes me weep for what it could have been.

9mm
2009-07-29, 01:00 PM
Dragonfire Adept
Tier 2 - Allowing Meta-breath feats (Twisted RAW)
Tier 4 - Not-allowing Meta-Breath (RAI)

... there are meta-breath feats that don't require a cool down?


Oof. I remembered the move action bit, but not the mind-affecting bit.

Soulknife makes me weep for what it could have been.

To this day I think throw multiple mind blade was supposed to be a palm throw on crack, but something went wrong during editing/printing and wizards decided to not do anything to fix it. Otherwise, wouldn't they have put in "as a standard action" under the basic "throw mind blade"?

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 01:02 PM
Oof. I remembered the move action bit, but not the mind-affecting bit.

Soulknife makes me weep for what it could have been.

You mean a crappy version of ToB? Soulknife boils down to WotC trying to tell melee classes that Jimmy's gonna be okay, Jimmy's gonna come home. Meanwhile, Jimmy's boiling inside with pestilence and the prodigal brood of a thousand distant stars.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 01:08 PM
You mean a crappy version of ToB? Soulknife boils down to WotC trying to tell melee classes that Jimmy's gonna be okay, Jimmy's gonna come home. Meanwhile, Jimmy's boiling inside with pestilence and the prodigal brood of a thousand distant stars.

Sort of. I really liked the class' flavor, and I mean beyond it being an obvious chance to pretend you're a Jedi. The idea of directly cutting into someone's soul has interested me since I first heard about Astral Cords. To me, the Soulknife should have been the defining class of the Expanded Psionics Handbook; the Psion and Wilder can easily be stumbled upon mid-session and look no different from a Sorcerer when just listening to the roleplay for their abilities. The 'innate power to bend reality' archclass is present in most of the magic systems for D&D. "I am taking a blade to your SOUL" is not so much.

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 01:08 PM
Is it any good? If so, book\page please?

Yeah, just corrected myself. It doesn't work on enemies immune to mind-affecting abilities which makes it completely worthless at 13th.

I repeat: right before Soulbow.

So of course, Illumine Soul is in Races of the Dragon. :smalltongue:

Complete Psionic. :smallcool:

It's a 5 level class.
Full Mind Blade and MBE progression. (I think you actually gain an additional PS die overall. Haven't run the numbers.)
You get the most use out of it if about half or more encounters are v undead. (your Mindblade(s) are automatically Undead Bane in addition to your given allotment.)
Your psychic strike now works on undead(even mindless undead).
You get a "don't die" ability once(?) per day. (Healing when your HP goes below 0, if the healing puts you above -10 after all the damage, you're still breathing.)
A couple of ways to hit things with positive energy.

Don't have the book in front of me, FYI.

(To be fair, my DM dropped the "Mind Blank makes you useless" bit in the campaign where I play one.)

Also, Mind Cleave(I think) from CP lets you recharge your Psychic Strike when you drop something. there are a few other Soulknife Feats in there that are handy. (Minus the form feats. Screw those. If i'm doing TWF, I'm boosting DEX and using Weapon Finesse. Double weapons don't cut in in those cases.)

EDIT: wow. I'm all over the place here...

Fishy
2009-07-29, 01:09 PM
What Soulknife Could Have Been. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

By which I mean the Soulbound Weapon ACF for Psychic Warriors, not the 'lol bonus feats' ACF for soulknives.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 01:11 PM
:: charges! ::

HUG CANNONS CHARGED!
BEAM-Spam!
::spams::

That is a beautiful fix.

AstralFire
2009-07-29, 01:11 PM
Nah. That's a quick fix (and one I have used), but I would have gone with expanding and making more useful the concept of directly striking at one's spirit, much as the original PrC in 3.0 was focused upon.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-29, 01:16 PM
I'm wondering about Paladin reworks, fixes and remakes.

I've only tested OW4's reworking (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045), and I'd say it lifts it to tier 4, perhaps tier 3 without much effort. Mostly tier 4 because of the auras (which work like the Marshal's auras), the improved spell list and capacity (grants Paladins some solid spellcasting by adding oddly missing spells such as Shield of Faith, Heal and Raise Dead), the Lay on Hands boosted to Dragon Shaman levels and furthermore increased by a recharge method, and the capstone ability which is pretty much Loyal Beyond Death or Immortal Fortitude on crack once per day. Oh, not to mention the specializations and bonus feats, which are much needed for a Paladin.

How would the rest of the reworks go (such as Fax's rework?)

Gorgondantess
2009-07-29, 01:21 PM
Yeah, soulknife is a cool idea, but poorly excecuted...
However, there's two fixes on this very site (found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6128287#post6128287) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104047)) that are quite good, IMHO, landing it solidly in tier 3.

quick_comment
2009-07-29, 01:23 PM
Soulknife can be fixed in a bunch of different ways.

One really easy way is to give it full initiator levels, warblade number of maneuvers known and readied, access to diamond mind, stone dragon and devoted spirit (with holy/unholy stuff refluffed as psionic).

For their recovery mechanism I suggest either copying the warblade, or giving them their maneuvers back whenever they execute a psychic strike. Give them a few bonus feats (instant clarity, the feat that lets them imbue their mind blade as a swift action once per day, stuff like that)

Also bump them up to full BAB.

Indon
2009-07-29, 01:26 PM
FYI, Greatwyrm, Totemist and Incarnate are two separate classes.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 01:57 PM
Incarnate are actually pretty cool and well-made. Certainly fun to play.

FMArthur
2009-07-29, 02:31 PM
Dragon Shaman is never spoken of, ever, but I'd say it makes a useful tier 4. If you like buffing auras and don't want to play a bard (silly) or a marshal (lol thanks for the move action, commoner), Dragon Shaman can suffice. It can take hits and use lesser breath weapons in addition to that, but not much else.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-29, 03:49 PM
Incarnate are actually pretty cool and well-made. Certainly fun to play.

And the Totemist is capable of going toe-to-toe (in terms of Fleibility) with the Bo9S.

9mm
2009-07-29, 04:12 PM
Dragon Shaman is never spoken of, ever, but I'd say it makes a useful tier 4. If you like buffing auras and don't want to play a bard (silly) or a marshal (lol thanks for the move action, commoner), Dragon Shaman can suffice. It can take hits and use lesser breath weapons in addition to that, but not much else.

I'd actually plug it as a low tier 3, as the Dragon Shaman can do more than just buff, he can be a decent heal bot and face as well, you just need to choose your aura's carefully. Plus his Breath weapon can become really good if you use Meta-Breath.

Blackfang108
2009-07-29, 04:29 PM
I'd actually plug it as a low tier 3, as the Dragon Shaman can do more than just buff, he can be a decent heal bot and face as well, you just need to choose your aura's carefully. Plus his Breath weapon can become really good if you use Meta-Breath.

Don't forget Double Draconic Aura, from Dragon Magic. It can help.

Skorj
2009-07-29, 04:32 PM
I don't want to start a monk debate, but I thought they were actually pretty good at shutting down enemy casters. Not as good as a wizard, but pretty good, with enough attacks per round to disrupt spells, and good enough saves (typically no weak save) to get the chance.

If so, that would make monks tier 4, not 5, by this definition. If not, nevermind, they sure aren't good for much else.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-29, 04:36 PM
I don't want to start a monk debate, but I thought they were actually pretty good at shutting down enemy casters. Not as good as a wizard, but pretty good, with enough attacks per round to disrupt spells, and good enough saves (typically no weak save) to get the chance.

If so, that would make monks tier 4, not 5, by this definition. If not, nevermind, they sure aren't good for much else.

What? What kind of casters were you fighting, Paladins?

A true Wizard would have been able to stomp a Monk, regardless of Attacks/round.


No, JaronK's thread pins them right. Monks are a 6 level class that ranks at Tier 5.

Skorj
2009-07-29, 05:24 PM
What? What kind of casters were you fighting, Paladins?

A true Wizard would have been able to stomp a Monk, regardless of Attacks/round.


No, JaronK's thread pins them right. Monks are a 6 level class that ranks at Tier 5.

Well, I'm not asserting any true expertise here, but a monk built for spell defense and speed, with level-appropriate magic items tuned to that purpose, can shrug off a lot of SoS spells and deliver a lot of low-damage attacks. Lame total damage, but good at going through multiple target images and 50% miss chances and dealing with flying and DDooring casters (to some extent) and so on.

Often a good wizard can simply ignore a melee opponent, and focus his attention soley on dueling the party casters. A monk can (in my limited experience) force the enemy caster to spend multiple rounds dealing with the monk, during which time the party casters have a free hand. Much like an MMO tank.

Or have I just not seen a fully optimised wizard battle plan? (Everyone always thinks their experience is general, but few have ever played against top-tier tactics - I know I haven't in 3.5).

Belobog
2009-07-29, 09:05 PM
I'm wondering about Paladin reworks, fixes and remakes.

I've only tested OW4's reworking (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045), and I'd say it lifts it to tier 4, perhaps tier 3 without much effort. Mostly tier 4 because of the auras (which work like the Marshal's auras), the improved spell list and capacity (grants Paladins some solid spellcasting by adding oddly missing spells such as Shield of Faith, Heal and Raise Dead), the Lay on Hands boosted to Dragon Shaman levels and furthermore increased by a recharge method, and the capstone ability which is pretty much Loyal Beyond Death or Immortal Fortitude on crack once per day. Oh, not to mention the specializations and bonus feats, which are much needed for a Paladin.

How would the rest of the reworks go (such as Fax's rework?)

Considering that Fax stated his Paladin was supposed to be balanced with the ToB base classes, I'd wager that it'd end up around Tier 3...before not having gotten a chance to use it, I wouldn't know. From what I remember about it, though, it looks about even with OW4's work, if more flexible.

As for any others, I can't recall any noteworthy renditions.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-30, 06:59 AM
Ardents, well built by those with strong kung-fu, can perform in the Tier 1 range, in my opinion. I've seen PhaedrusXY do things that broke me.
It's (theoretically) possible to build a MONK or something well enough to be tier 1. Or a commoner!


FYI, Greatwyrm, Totemist and Incarnate are two separate classes.
Fixed! Try capitalising both next time.

Also, bring discussions of the soulknife's power to another thread, please.

Random832
2009-07-30, 07:16 AM
It's (theoretically) possible to build a MONK or something well enough to be tier 1.

On a 28 point buy?


Or a commoner!

Now you're just messing with us.

Indon
2009-07-30, 07:37 AM
And the Totemist is capable of going toe-to-toe (in terms of Fleibility) with the Bo9S.

Yes, but the Totemist and Incarnate have to choose between picking their soulmelds/binds for high flexibility or picking them for power - putting them at tier 4 while the ToB classes basically get a watered-down spell selection which give them flexibility with their power, which puts them at tier 3.

Personally, I feel the class sweet-spot for the game is from tiers 3-5, so as magic systems go I really like Incarnum.


Now you're just messing with us.

Magic items (especially in combination with UMD, even cross-class) are just that powerful.

Random832
2009-07-30, 07:46 AM
That said, if you can do it with a commoner, it's not Tier 1, since you can by definition (since a commoner has all poor saves, poor BAB, +2 skill points, d4 HD, and no class features worth mentioning) do it better with any other class and still do whatever else made the class whatever tier it is.

How good can you get by magical items alone within WBL, anyway?

Indon
2009-07-30, 07:51 AM
The tiers are defined by absolute capability (in the context of the ill-defined D&D CR system, admittedly), not relative capability.

I've commonly seen non-exploitative magic item strategies bring just about any class to de facto tier 3. I imagine UMD abuse could probably land just about any character in tier 2 - until their money ran out anyway (barring some infinite gold trick using spells, which shouldn't be hard).

Random832
2009-07-30, 07:57 AM
The tiers are defined by absolute capability (in the context of the ill-defined D&D CR system, admittedly), not relative capability.

Right, but relative capability does come in to some extent, in so far as if the Commoner is tier 1, the tier system is absolutely meaningless and needs to be scrapped and redefined - because, unless you've got some clever optimization that depends on the Commoner's class skills, there is nothing you can do with a Commoner that you can't do with every other single class there is, and every possible multiclass combination too unless you're multiclassing large numbers of poor-BAB classes without fractional rules.

Indon
2009-07-30, 08:00 AM
Right, but relative capability does come in to some extent, in so far as if the Commoner is tier 1, the tier system is absolutely meaningless and needs to be scrapped and redefined.

That's the reason the tier system doesn't generally include magic items, just class abilities.

Edit: It also generally excludes specific builds, except as additional entries (See the Binder on the original list).

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-30, 08:11 AM
That's the reason the tier system doesn't generally include magic items, just class abilities.

Edit: It also generally excludes specific builds, except as additional entries (See the Binder on the original list).

And Dungeoncrasher Fighter. And Wild Shape Ranger. And a few others.

Frosty
2009-07-30, 11:52 AM
I thought Jaronk included Dungeoncrasher as a special mention (it's tier 4 instead of 5)?

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 11:58 AM
I thought Jaronk included Dungeoncrasher as a special mention (it's tier 4 instead of 5)?

Mhm, Sinfire was pointing out a few more of 'em.

tiercel
2009-07-30, 12:40 PM
Oh yay, more codification of "this class is INHERENTLY SUPERIOR to your piddling little class." Because, you know, in the end, all that matters is a class' performance at level 20 when the DM allows his players to have any spell they ever want, ever (but we don't include the need for, or usefulness of, magic items to a given class at all).

This whole "tier" system is nothing more than noticing what people have known for years, which is that at really high levels more spellcasting tends to trump less spellcasting, especially to the extent that the DM is permissive about spell selection. This is not new. Furthermore, it's not helpful in the sense that some poor schmuck new to DMing might get all in a panic that if he allows "tier 1" PCs into his game at any level, his game will instantly and irrevocably collapse into such a morass of malevolent utter brokenness that a singularity will form at his gaming table, sucking in him and all his players to be crushed into utter oblivion.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 12:43 PM
The Tier system is useful for a DM who is not yet intricately familiar with her PCs to sort out how to approach encounters and make suggestions on party balance. It is a tool; how you use the tool is up to you. I found it most useful for having a quick reference when making homebrew abilities, looking at things that I should be using as a target or a frame. Don't confuse this with the usual song and dance about the Big 5, since it's about more than them.

Thrawn183
2009-07-30, 12:45 PM
Dragonfire Adept should not go below Tier 3.

Justification:
- Essentially a Con based class + d8 HD makes for a HUGE HP total. Probably higher than anything other than a raging barbarian. Even then, it might be equal as many barbarians focus on Str and Dex instead of Con.
- High AC: breath weapons have no ASF chance. Just stick the DFA in some full plate and you've got the AC of your standard tank.
- Crowd Control: Slow breath alone makes this class. This hurts melee'rs and casters alike.
- Damage: This only really takes off when you get to the Five Fold Breath of Tiamat, but you have 2 different AoE's and you can make your entire party immune to it. This makes it easy to use and extremely reliable.
- Utility: Great skill list. The ability to become quite good with these skills (an invocation that gives you a bonus to all knowledge skills and you count as trained in them all? Woohooo!). Let's not forget UMD as a class skill and all the other invocations that can give you important things like flight?

----------------
How would everyone rate a Chameleon?

Indon
2009-07-30, 01:22 PM
The Tier system is useful for a DM who is not yet intricately familiar with her PCs to sort out how to approach encounters and make suggestions on party balance.

I don't know if I'd even go that far.

The tier system isn't predictive without knowing how much your players will optimize their character build options and how they will play in practice - a Wizard is listed as T1, but a Wizard with a bunch of evocation spells memorized is T3 or T4. A couple well-selected alternate class features can make a T5 class into a T4 or even a T3 class. High-tier classes aren't the only ones that can concievably break games, either.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:25 PM
I don't know if I'd even go that far.

The tier system isn't predictive without knowing how much your players will optimize their character build options and how they will play in practice - a Wizard is listed as T1, but a Wizard with a bunch of evocation spells memorized is T3 or T4. A couple well-selected alternate class features can make a T5 class into a T4 or even a T3 class. High-tier classes aren't the only ones that can concievably break games, either.

It's not a complete guide, no, even a druid played to some archetypes rather than optimally can fall flat before the face of a well-done Fighter. But it is a useful tool when applied well. I can understand fatigue from the constant rabble about Batman Wizards, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Frosty
2009-07-30, 01:29 PM
The guide assumes a uniform level of optimization from all players involved. It has to be constructed that way to be meaningful. If your players are at different levels, adjust accordingly.

Surrealistik
2009-07-30, 01:31 PM
My Pimp Sorc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115170). Tier 1.

ChaosDefender24
2009-07-30, 01:39 PM
Soulknife is tier six.

Name three classes that would make you want to play a soulknife. Go on, try. All I got is complete warrior samurai.

CW samurai, aristocrat, warrior, commoner?



in other news, the only way to make everyone agree with this tier system is to use a strategy implemented with another tier system that people couldn't agree about.

32 point buy. No flaws. Wizards only. Final Destination.

Indon
2009-07-30, 01:42 PM
32 point buy. No flaws. Wizards only. Final Destination.

They got rid of the mirror-image/blink combo in 4ed, it no longer requires any skill and I refuse to play it.

On a marginally more serious note, your joke opened my eyes to the similarities between the D&D fanbase and the SSB fanbase (whom I am only loosely acquainted with).

Umael
2009-07-30, 01:59 PM
I don't know how to judge these things that well, but I would say that the Rokugan Courtier would probably be Tier 5 as well.

In the social arena, the Courtier can go toe to toe with the Bard, at least for a while (haven't done a breakdown of the two, although I'm sure the setting favoring the Courtier can make the Bard very uncomfortable - outside of Rokugan, I don't know).

But the Courtier does NOT have access to UMD, does NOT have decent hit points, does NOT have a good BAB, and just about all of its class features revolve around social interaction (without the benefits of spells).

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-30, 02:05 PM
Well, I'm not asserting any true expertise here, but a monk built for spell defense and speed, with level-appropriate magic items tuned to that purpose, can shrug off a lot of SoS spells and deliver a lot of low-damage attacks. Lame total damage, but good at going through multiple target images and 50% miss chances and dealing with flying and DDooring casters (to some extent) and so on.

Often a good wizard can simply ignore a melee opponent, and focus his attention soley on dueling the party casters. A monk can (in my limited experience) force the enemy caster to spend multiple rounds dealing with the monk, during which time the party casters have a free hand. Much like an MMO tank.

Or have I just not seen a fully optimised wizard battle plan? (Everyone always thinks their experience is general, but few have ever played against top-tier tactics - I know I haven't in 3.5).

Mostly the last one. The Wizard that follows the optimization rules manages to halt the battle before it begins, mostly because it abuses Contingencies. Having Moment of Prescience, which is a spell that grants an immediate insight bonus to loads of things (including Initiative), casting Time Stop right at the beginning of battle, and pre-empting what the Monk could do effectively trumps the Monk. This isn't using splat-books or magic items; this is Core spells and strictly class abilities used.

This is what the tier system tries to reflect. Since the tier draws from other splatbooks, they try to make the tiers reflecting certain factors. One of them is how easy it is for them to break with minimal effort: choosing the spells on the innumerable lists on the Internet that are tried and proven to be super-effective makes the Wizard a force to be reckoned. The Cleric has similar ability, the fact that a well-placed spell can effectively double for a role (and I'm not saying splatbooks, but Core spells), and they do the buffing work just as well if not better than Wizards. Druids have the core ability to outclass melee with just their Wildshape, but they get truly stronger if they get Natural Spell, which is a Core feat.

On the other side of the fence, you have the Fighters whose bonus feats don't scale properly with the other classes (you need at least three feats for Greater Weapon Specialization, for around +2 to hit and +4 to damage on a single kind of weapon), and most of the Core feats tend to cause troubles to the Fighters. Paladins are even worse on that regard, because few of their Core spells truly outshine (barring things like Lesser Restoration and Greater Magic Weapon), their caster levels are halved, their best attributes are gained right at the first few levels, and the few benefits that grow by level are either completely replaced or practically worthless at first; note that I'm saying this even though I am a Paladin fanboy, who can choose to play or ignore a game depending on whether a choice to make a Paladin exists or not. Monks suffer from having a good amount of front-loaded class abilities, limited use of truly worthwhile class abilities (Dimension Door and Quivering Palm), and the fact that they try too hard to be a mix of damage dealers and melee classes, but they incur in the big no-noes of both (damage dealers can't move and full attack, melee classes should have huge AC)

The idea is that, the more they need just to be useful, the less powerful they become. A Fighter needs a very carefully chosen set of feats, the requisite magic items, and the right tactical situation to really shine. Paladins need something similar, except that they suffer for having less bonus feats; in their advantage, they get quite a bit of love in their spellcasting (I've made the analysis of it). Monks...well, Monks could be fixed, but you need so many and so carefully chosen magic items that you may very well try to multiclass or change your character already. Meanwhile, Wizards only need their Core spells to be useful, Clerics only need their Core spells to be useful, Druids need just their Core spells and their Wildshape to be brutally useful, and so on. Tier 1s are those who not only need very little to be useful, they get monstrous with just a few applications of magic items or new spells, and they rock even further with most Prestige Classes.

Sure, an Evoker Wizard that bars Conjuration and Transmutation is literally blowing it off big-time (see what Xykon did to a boosted V, for example) But you really need to try a lot to actually intentionally bust off the potential of the Wizard to do so, and even then, it has its few tricks (for example, V hasn't nulled Transmutation, and s/he seems to have a good grasp on the nature of the spells to choose. S/e's a valuable asset to the team even if s/he intentionally botched scratching Conjuration) This is what the Tier system tries to tackle.

There are several factors to measure when determining the Tiers. The snippets of info right there tell you what each Tier should aspire into. With some effort, you can make a lower-tier class raise a tier or two, but it serves as a measure to how well you can truly raise the potential of that class.


Oh yay, more codification of "this class is INHERENTLY SUPERIOR to your piddling little class." Because, you know, in the end, all that matters is a class' performance at level 20 when the DM allows his players to have any spell they ever want, ever (but we don't include the need for, or usefulness of, magic items to a given class at all).

This whole "tier" system is nothing more than noticing what people have known for years, which is that at really high levels more spellcasting tends to trump less spellcasting, especially to the extent that the DM is permissive about spell selection. This is not new. Furthermore, it's not helpful in the sense that some poor schmuck new to DMing might get all in a panic that if he allows "tier 1" PCs into his game at any level, his game will instantly and irrevocably collapse into such a morass of malevolent utter brokenness that a singularity will form at his gaming table, sucking in him and all his players to be crushed into utter oblivion.

That's exaggerate. Tone that rage a bit, will you please?

First and foremost, it tries to measure the usefulness of the class on a general scale. Spells such as Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Web, Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Invisibility and so on are actually low-level classes that make the class strong at the moment they choose it, and keep making the class stronger.

What may seem to be a revealed secret is that spellcasting went out of control. Every new system, every new set of tricks had to have something for the spellcasters so that they wouldn't feel out of the game. When they brought Incarnum? Spellcasters knew things that they could do with Incarnum. Tome of Magic? Spellcasters knew spells they could enhance with Truenames. Psionics? Spells for Psionics. A book for adventurers? Spellcasters could dabble in roguish acts with no less effort than choosing the spell or getting the scroll. A book about the divine? Spellcasters could dabble in the divine as well, even if they weren't the clerics or druids. And then, of course, what happened if the book was about arcane? Clerics and druids dabbled into the arcana. Meanwhile, the fighters and rogues and other classes began to suffer because they had to keep up with the versatility offered by spellcasters.

Furthermore, a tier system is actually useful to work the situation into the DM's control, and into the strengths of players. If the same player who chose the tier 1 suddenly found himself surrounded by tier 5 characters, what choices does the DM have? What choices does the other players have? What choices does the actual player has? If the player over-optimizes and plays the Wizard/Cleric/Druid for the love of optimization, the rest will feel like following a DMPC, while the DM will try to make the game challenging for the PC. However, the DM can still offer a challenge to the others if he knows what the tiers can do.

Of course, if the DM gets goaded by the players, then it's failing to do what the DM should do aside from telling a story, which is serving as the referee on the matter. Also, what's equal is not an advantage: you can also make a Wizard with little effort as a DM, and use the very same tricks optimized Wizards can do with little to no effort. However, it's the task of a DM to handle that out professionally: you can nerf some of the spells that are problematic (even if it's half the Core spells), you can add hurdles to the Wizard getting X class, you can make specific races rarer, and so on. Meanwhile, the Fighter can get some aid in learning a specific feat, and so on.

Telonius
2009-07-30, 02:08 PM
In my games, Tier 1 and Tier 6 are vacated. Monks are bumped up in power to be about equal to Fighter. The casters have their power severely limited. (Wildshape variant Druids, contingencies banned, Divine Power limited to War domain, no such thing as DMM or Nightsticks, several of the big offender Wizard spells banned). Samurai does not exist. No to psionics, since I am still too lazy to figure out how they will break my game.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 02:20 PM
No to psionics, since I am still too lazy to figure out how they will break my game.

They won't, as long as you follow the rules (that is, you can only invest PP to a power equal to your manifester level) and don't allow the Spells-to-Powers Erudite. Really, Psionics are pretty damn well balanced for a casting system; blaster psions are actually relatively efficient as far as archers go, and controlling/creator psions are all vastly different (psion can't cover all these roles at once) and functional.

Awesome system - suggest you give it a go, refluffed if you must (it works great as a simple alternative way to use Magic in my games).

Maybe ban Synchronity (since it can do ridiculous stuff; another reason Complete Psionics sucks) & Metamorphosis-line (since it's basically Polymorph, only harder to get), but that's about it.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 02:40 PM
Second that. You need to ban a couple of powers, but that's it. It's great. Just don't let the StP Erudite in, like Eld said.


StP makes me miss MtG

Telonius
2009-07-30, 03:21 PM
They won't, as long as you follow the rules (that is, you can only invest PP to a power equal to your manifester level) and don't allow the Spells-to-Powers Erudite. Really, Psionics are pretty damn well balanced for a casting system; blaster psions are actually relatively efficient as far as archers go, and controlling/creator psions are all vastly different (psion can't cover all these roles at once) and functional.

Awesome system - suggest you give it a go, refluffed if you must (it works great as a simple alternative way to use Magic in my games).

Maybe ban Synchronity (since it can do ridiculous stuff; another reason Complete Psionics sucks) & Metamorphosis-line (since it's basically Polymorph, only harder to get), but that's about it.

The fluff is no problem. That's one thing I never really understood - you can accept making a fireball from bat guano, but throw in some crystals and suddenly it's too much for suspension of disbelief? My big hesitation is that I really, really try to craft my encounters to the players. After several years of gaming, I know exactly what Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids, and Clerics are capable of, and what immunities and defenses (and offenses) my bad guys need to have in order to put up a formidable challenge to them. But if I add in a new system like psionics, all it needs is a Psion to come along with one power I wasn't completely familiar with, and the entire encounter goes kerflooie. Not necessarily a bad thing for that to happen every once in awhile. I just don't trust Wizards enough to have put out a system where an easily-breakable spell/power/whatever isn't going to come up two or three times a session.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 03:23 PM
Psionics is remarkably good about that. I actually recommend new DMs play with psionics before they do casting.

Random832
2009-07-30, 03:23 PM
The problem is that science fiction writers are slightly less averse to including "psionic" stuff in their stuff than to including "magic", this translates to a (completely false) perception that "psionic" stuff is somehow "science-fictiony" and therefore does not belong in D&D

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 03:44 PM
Among other psionic things to ban are anticipatory strike and schism (although people will argue with me over that one)

Basically, if it breaks the action economy, it goes out.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-07-30, 06:25 PM
On a 28 point buy?



Now you're just messing with us.
Note that I said "theoretically." I read a build once that used a level of commoner to get the Survivor class early. It just depends on optimization and how you play them. You can get a Tier 7 wizard, if you try.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 06:29 PM
Note that I said "theoretically." I read a build once that used a level of commoner to get the Survivor class early. It just depends on optimization and how you play them. You can get a Tier 7 wizard, if you try.

Tier 7 wizard is just half-orc wizard with 8 int base.

Any reasonable wizard will be much better than that though.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 06:33 PM
Among other psionic things to ban are anticipatory strike and schism (although people will argue with me over that one)

Basically, if it breaks the action economy, it goes out.

I just give it a somewhat pricey material component, ideally one that can't be made. I'm fine with you pulling out all the stops. I just don't want you always doing it. Mind, this only works until EWL expands beyond the pricing barrier you've laid out.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 06:36 PM
I don't mind Schism though I don't allow Practiced Manifester to raise the level you can manifest there; while it breaks action economy, it's a relatively low power break in an otherwise unremarkable school so you usually have to EK for it.

And to get any spells off that action, you need to Still & Silent it, so it's really a rather low-powered action. Though unfortunately spells still rock with it. But yeah, my experience is that Schism doesn't really break anything that bad. Extra actions are still extra actions, but hey, it's no Time Stop (now, Temporal Acceleration on the other hand...)

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 06:38 PM
Darn, but I love temporal acceleration. I guess that means it needs to be banned.

I'm going to weigh in and say that even with heavy multiclassing, monks don't cross tier two, and a tier two monk would be hardly anything you'd recognize as a monk, frankly.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 06:43 PM
I'm not sure if it's completely unsalvageable, but the limitations on what actions can be taken while under it need to be much harsher; same method could be used to salvage Time Stop.

I'm a big Temporal Acceleration-fan too especially since I love Psionic Gishes and thus actually DO use it for buffing, but it's got similar potential to Time Stop in there and is accessible much earlier and doesn't even need Greater Rod of Maximize with it thanks to Overchannel.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 07:11 PM
Darn, but I love temporal acceleration. I guess that means it needs to be banned.

I'm going to weigh in and say that even with heavy multiclassing, monks don't cross tier two, and a tier two monk would be hardly anything you'd recognize as a monk, frankly.

Even king of smack Id say is T2.

Any build based on hitting things really cant be T1 I think.

tiercel
2009-07-30, 08:42 PM
It's not a complete guide, no, even a druid played to some archetypes rather than optimally can fall flat before the face of a well-done Fighter. But it is a useful tool when applied well. I can understand fatigue from the constant rabble about Batman Wizards, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

I take issue with a major premise "can do everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing." This might be true at level 20 -- and certainly approaches this truth at the highest levels -- but it is rather more of a ridiculous assertion at lower levels, including most of the levels during which most campaigns actually play. Yes. Sure. Fine. If you are playing a game where the PCs spend most or all of their time at level 13+ you are going to be a significantly different, and more spellcaster-dominated, game than your more typical (in my experience) level 1-11 campaign. But that's a little different than saying OMGZORS knock makes rogues completely obsolete starting from 3rd level FOREVERS.

Another major premise, about "tier 1": "can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat", is pushing a point a bit far. Now, I haven't seen splatbook "tier 1" characters in actual gameplay but the Core ones have limitations that don't necessarily require the DM, overall, to be throwing down fiat all over (OK, at higher levels, things *do* become more problematic, and a few spells do really stick out -- but my point is overall).

Wizards don't just get free access to any spell they want, ever -- they only get 2 free per level, and have to obtain any other spells through other means. If you as a DM are just blithely operating "Wiz-Walmart" for any spell out of any splatbook ever, then you only have yourself to blame if the wizard can always operate any spell or spell combo he likes. That's not to say you should be actively preventing wizard PCs from spending WBL on spells -- that's to be expected -- but you don't need "fiat" to keep most abusive spells (particularly splatbook ones) out of wizard hands.

Druids and clerics have been overpowered in part because it's expected they will be expending part of that power buffing and healing the rest of the party. That's not to say they still aren't strong, but where clerics start getting broken is if you constantly allow them an arbitrary number of rounds before every fight to get ready to out-fight the Fighter-type, plus let them arbitrarily turn a narrowly-focused resource (Turn Undead) into an all-purpose one (Divine feats, particularly Persistent Metamagic). Plus there should be at least some RP collars around the necks of clerics generally -- ClericZilla still has to answer to the whims of a Higher Power (or, at the very least, a pretty significant Code of Conduct if he's going to be some kind of philosopher-priest).

Druids have their own restrictions, one big one kicking in if you don't just enable arbitrary access to 3.0 wilding clasps. Equipment just doesn't help druids as much as other classes. (Granted, they don't *need* much help, but it is worth considering that equipment is arguably worth less to druids than probably any other class.) Druids also presumably should have a bit of a Code of Conduct thing going on. Additionally, if your druid is playing Sun Tzu with his army of super summons, it probably means you are allowing him way too many free uninterrupted full-round casting times, not to mention failing to enforce actions (and where appropriate, Handle Animal checks) to give orders to his minions of any complexity or that actually require skill checks.

While divine casters have the big advantage of "free" access to any spell allowed, they do have to *ask* for their spells. You don't have to necessarily DM fiat a spell away so much as "your god/power just doesn't grant that spell" particularly if the spell is too far out of balance/ethos. Yes, this can be a fiat mechanism, but it can be a reasonable one as well -- and there's no rule that you have include every broken spell in your game.

Putting aside the overall power levels of spellcasters vs nonspellcasters, especially at higher levels, it shouldn't be surprising that characters who get geometrically more options at higher levels can present more of a challenge to DM for than ones who only get linearly more options, if that. That doesn't take tiers to understand.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 08:54 PM
I am not getting into this argument again. I have my limits for how much I want to verbally spar. Suffice to say that there are several popular topics on the subject within the first few pages that you can read, and that that list was made with an eye towards what a class can maximally achieve, in part as a warning to avoid several of the things you just railed against, with an eye towards high levels because that is where balance becomes the most complex. It is an at-a-glance guide and it is not meant to be consumed in a vacuum devoid of other knowledge relating to class abilities and power. To attack it for not being comprehensive at all levels is not fair given the brevity of the list, and again, I've found it to be very helpful when making homebrew.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 09:05 PM
Tiercel: Addressing some points you brought up - spoilered for length.

I take issue with a major premise "can do everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing." This might be true at level 20 -- and certainly approaches this truth at the highest levels -- but it is rather more of a ridiculous assertion at lower levels, including most of the levels during which most campaigns actually play. Yes. Sure. Fine. If you are playing a game where the PCs spend most or all of their time at level 13+ you are going to be a significantly different, and more spellcaster-dominated, game than your more typical (in my experience) level 1-11 campaign. But that's a little different than saying OMGZORS knock makes rogues completely obsolete starting from 3rd level FOREVERS.

It's more like from level 5-7 when Wizards can start flying and Clerics can start Divine Powering and Druids can start Wildshaping (and have a Large Flying Animal Companion in Dire Bat...) and so on. Though Druids, thanks to their animal companion, can start from level 1.


Another major premise, about "tier 1": "can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat", is pushing a point a bit far. Now, I haven't seen splatbook "tier 1" characters in actual gameplay but the Core ones have limitations that don't necessarily require the DM, overall, to be throwing down fiat all over (OK, at higher levels, things *do* become more problematic, and a few spells do really stick out -- but my point is overall).

Just because it's possible doesn't mean people want to do it. Not all even have the know-how, but really, breaking a campaign is rarely a player's goal. However, the point is the classes have the potential to pull out Planar Bindings, Control Winds, Shapechanges and the like along with insane all-day buffings and Divinations and such.


Wizards don't just get free access to any spell they want, ever -- they only get 2 free per level, and have to obtain any other spells through other means. If you as a DM are just blithely operating "Wiz-Walmart" for any spell out of any splatbook ever, then you only have yourself to blame if the wizard can always operate any spell or spell combo he likes. That's not to say you should be actively preventing wizard PCs from spending WBL on spells -- that's to be expected -- but you don't need "fiat" to keep most abusive spells (particularly splatbook ones) out of wizard hands.

Eh, if they want they can pick those insane spells (especially the Core-ones; all the worst ones outside Celerity are Core) at their level-ups, leaving DM to just ban them outright, restrict their use or just basically have every monster use the same spells to keep the playing field equal.

I, for one, don't enjoy fighting as a Hydra when I play a Fighter (or rather, Warblade) even though that's more effective; I want to fight with my ****ing sword and beat things purely without magic with just my own martial prowess, but in a world with Polymorph, the Fighter-polymorphed-into-12-Headed Hydra is just a 1000 times more effective than the one that fights as a Fighter.

Same with the Wizard himself; Alter Self gets you alternative movement modes on level 3 (or 6 points of natural armor and such with Trogdolyte), you can Polymorph into some insane AC or Str forms (Fire Giants, or for base Outsiders, Horned Devils, are both nice) and hell, allows you and the familiar to become combat beasts if desired. That's a great reason to restrict Polymorph-line; it just breaks all sorts of limitations in the game (who said level 12 character shouldn't have 12 attacks at their highest bonus per round?)


Druids and clerics have been overpowered in part because it's expected they will be expending part of that power buffing and healing the rest of the party. That's not to say they still aren't strong, but where clerics start getting broken is if you constantly allow them an arbitrary number of rounds before every fight to get ready to out-fight the Fighter-type, plus let them arbitrarily turn a narrowly-focused resource (Turn Undead) into an all-purpose one (Divine feats, particularly Persistent Metamagic). Plus there should be at least some RP collars around the necks of clerics generally -- ClericZilla still has to answer to the whims of a Higher Power (or, at the very least, a pretty significant Code of Conduct if he's going to be some kind of philosopher-priest).

Code of Conduct and role-playing limitations in general aren't balancing factors - they simply limit what kind of a player would want to pick up the class and what kind of a character you can build. They don't affect power one damn bit.

As for healing, that's done with Wand of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor bought by the party together after level 2; in-combat healing is horribly inefficient outside the Heal-spell and the Cleric and Druid will save much more resources by ending the combat faster than by spending turns casting Cure Light Wounds on guys taking damage ('cause the damage easily outpaces the healing). And yeah, who wouldn't want Entangle, Cause Fear and such prepared for the party instead?


Druids have their own restrictions, one big one kicking in if you don't just enable arbitrary access to 3.0 wilding clasps. Equipment just doesn't help druids as much as other classes. (Granted, they don't *need* much help, but it is worth considering that equipment is arguably worth less to druids than probably any other class.) Druids also presumably should have a bit of a Code of Conduct thing going on. Additionally, if your druid is playing Sun Tzu with his army of super summons, it probably means you are allowing him way too many free uninterrupted full-round casting times, not to mention failing to enforce actions (and where appropriate, Handle Animal checks) to give orders to his minions of any complexity or that actually require skill checks.

Uhm, Wilding Clasps is in Magic Item Compendium, and IIRC Complete Divine too. Also, Wild Armor is actually better if it melds (Full-Plate without any of the drawbacks! Nice.) and there's nothing by RAW stopping you from just taking your items off and putting them on in your animal form (which lasts hours/level meaning this kind of arrangement is perfectly doable).

And Summon Nature's Ally can be shortened to standard action with judicious application of Rapid Spell. Sure, it takes some work but it can be done. And it's amazing how much animal companion does to keep the Druid's casting uninterrupted, let alone the rest of the party. Disrupting Druid isn't something that just happens, you specifically have to plan for that as a DM which gets really implausible in-game.


While divine casters have the big advantage of "free" access to any spell allowed, they do have to *ask* for their spells. You don't have to necessarily DM fiat a spell away so much as "your god/power just doesn't grant that spell" particularly if the spell is too far out of balance/ethos. Yes, this can be a fiat mechanism, but it can be a reasonable one as well -- and there's no rule that you have include every broken spell in your game.

Which is house ruling. This list does NOT take into account house rules since since every group would need a different list then. It's universal and therefore can only abide by RAW. That said, saying certain spells aren't granted is just the same as banning them; why the heck wouldn't your patron want to grant you powerful spells if you're specifically spreading his beliefs and ethos?

Or hell, what if your patron isn't a personable creature but an ideal or the nature or such (such as an ideal-worshipping Cleric or a Druid)? But yeah, of course you can house rule away things. What does that tell besides the fact that the class in question has too powerful abilities though?


Putting aside the overall power levels of spellcasters vs nonspellcasters, especially at higher levels, it shouldn't be surprising that characters who get geometrically more options at higher levels can present more of a challenge to DM for than ones who only get linearly more options, if that. That doesn't take tiers to understand.

Indeed.

expirement10K14
2009-08-17, 08:17 PM
I keep seeing reference to tiers of power in dnd 3.5, but I can't find any thread about them here, brilliant gameologists or wotc so I am asking you, forum goers, what are these tiers?

sonofzeal
2009-08-17, 08:21 PM
They're all over the place. JaronK's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0) is the most famous one, and lans (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5291.0) has one too. There's also my own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107618) tier system for classes.

Doc Roc
2009-08-17, 10:28 PM
I've often been tempted to draw up my own tier system, but I feel the existing ones are sufficient. I have a lot of respect for JaronK, having seen his output all over the place, but particularly on 339...

Zeta Kai
2009-08-17, 11:46 PM
Well, if I had to guess, I'd say that the Bio-Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2487790) was a Tier 2 class. It's roughly comparable to the Sorcerer, but with more class features & more restrictions. They basically balance out, but it's hard to say. Of course, one could argue that the Bio-Mage's tier depends on how long it's in play before you die. The shorter the duration, the lower the tier. Yes, that's right, the longer you live as a bio-mage, the less effective you are. Like a Truenamer, but with a bomb around your neck. Stick around long enough, & it's a Bio-Bomb. :smallwink:

Doc Roc
2009-08-18, 12:05 AM
Zeta, you are really strange.

elliott20
2009-08-18, 12:17 AM
Zeta, you are really strange.

really? I'd say he's more... "quirky"

Gralamin
2009-08-18, 12:45 AM
really? I'd say he's more... "quirky"

If he was rich we could just call him eccentric.

Samb
2009-08-18, 12:50 AM
Wilders should be tier 2 or high 3. I am one of the few people that really love this class and feel it is the most overlooked classes in XPH.


Pros
With some tricks to gain more powers, a good PrC class and the educated variant, wilder is easily more powerful than a straight psion, and in certain regards better than a psywar.

1) Wild surge is hands down the best psionic class feature. It beats the crap out of overchannel with or without talented. Increase your ML and pay for it really as good as it sounds. A psion with wild surge (via anarchic initiate PrC) is truly the baddest mofu around.

2)3/4 BAB great for blasting or gish at early levels, and the same as psywar. Surging euphoria makes them better hitters than psywars. Every 5 levels the wilder also gains a +1 edge over the blasting psion even before you factor in surging euphoria.

3)Great PP reserve. Psywar can use its bonus feats to make up for this but then squander their main advantage over wilder just to be even. Many psywar builds have half of their feats on psionic talent. I always just ask them: "why didn't you just go with a wilder?"

4)Get 9th level powers. Even if a psywar burns all his extra feats to get more PP and have a boot leg wild surge this is one obstacle he can not be overcome with feats. If there was one thing I hated about playing psywar was the low level powers I'm using.

5)Schism will basically make you immune to enervation. Schism is a power EVERYONE takes and it is even better for a wilder. Enervation is not a compulsion or charm effect and does not allow a save. So if you enervate using your schismed mind it will not end the effect. Your "other mind" is dazed while your real body is not. With wild surge and practised manifester (another must have feat for all psi-users) your schismed mind is just as potent as your real one.


Cons
Main weakness is lack of powers. That's it. In 20 levels it only gets 11 if you use the educated variant you get 15. Compared to the 20 of the psywar and 36 a psion get. Many tricks are around to make up for this, but I have ranted long enough. If you need more info click here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4368.0).

ghost_warlock
2009-08-18, 12:54 AM
Hm. My homebrew (see sig):
Brigand - tier 4ish?
Primal Savant - tier 3.
Shadowmage - tier 3.