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View Full Version : Odd path to Sublime Chord? Arcane Gishy (good? bad?)ness? Completely legal?



T.G. Oskar
2009-07-29, 04:59 PM
Again, the build bug strikes again!

While checking for the Carmendine Monk bonus feat on behalf of explaining the features to some people on the forums, I stumbled upon a funny build that might just work out. Of course, it probably isn't legal, but if it becomes possible, then it would be a hilarious way to do so.

Basically, the premise is to get the prerequisites of Sublime Chord by level 11, with or without touching a single level in bard, using a wide variety of different methods. If done correctly, while not in the playing level of a tier 1 or sorcerer, it could do pretty funny things.

In either case...here's the build:
Human Harmonious Knight 1/Paladin 4 of Milil/Knight of the Weave 5/Eldritch Knight or Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/EK 8(+?)

Feats:
1st level or Human: Able Learner
6th level: Initiate of Milil

Skills for qualifications:
Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 4, Perform (any) 10 (for Virtuoso)
Knowledge (arcana) 1, Knowledge (history) 1, Spellcraft 1 (for Knight of the Weave)
Knowledge (arcana) 13, Listen 13, Perform (any) 10, Profession (astrologer) 6, Spellcraft 6 (for Sublime Chord)
Perform (any) 3 (Initiate of Milil)

The principle behind this is to use Knight of the Weave to qualify for the spells, and to use either the ruling of Initiate of Milil that paladin levels stack with Bard levels for purposes of access to Bardic Music abilities OR use the Bardic Music ability of the Virtuoso coupled with the Initiate of Milil. It's pretty insane, mostly because it almost completely emulates Bardic Music abilities. I'd need to see the ruling of the collective to see how it works.

(In either case, it *could* be fixed with a Bard level and Devoted Performer, but the hilarity is if this could work without taking a level in Bard)

The idea is that, with the right amount of levels and abilities, you can get 8th-9th level spells and around 16+ BAB, which are the key elements for a typical gish. The second thing would be the ability to use the spell lists of bard, sorcerer, wizard and paladin for purposes of using scrolls, staves and wands. The third is to use a hilarious ability from the Knight of the Weave in which you can sacrifice a spell slot to add at least one metamagic feat to a cast spell. Certainly, depending on the choices it may seem like a bad move, but the possibilities are endless.

Actually, the idea of persisting Time Stop with the use of a 6th level spell cracks me up.

Of course, the whole concept is throughly untweaked, but this is why I ask guidance from you, fellow Playgrounders. Here are my doubts and questions:

1) You may know already of the bardic music limitation. Another limitation would be Listen. Aside from taking a level in Bard, which would an alternative way to get Listen as a class skill?

2) What metamagic feats (aside from Extend and Persistent), divine feats (4th level Paladins get Turn Undead), and other feats may aid this build? While at that, what other feats can aid the build? Since this isn't meant for playing (yet...), consider that virtually any official book goes, with Dragon magazine content merely as suggestions.

3) While at that, which magic items would be worthwhile? I could think of a Cloak of Charisma and mithral armor, as well as probably a Badge of Valor.

4) Has this been done before? I've seen builds blending Paladin with Nar Demonbinder, but none using Knight of the Weave.

Darrin
2009-07-29, 11:37 PM
1) You may know already of the bardic music limitation. Another limitation would be Listen. Aside from taking a level in Bard, which would an alternative way to get Listen as a class skill?


Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) or Skill Knowledge (UA).

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Flexible_Mind,all
http://srd.realmspire.com/unearthedAlternativeSkills.html#skill-knowledge



2) What metamagic feats (aside from Extend and Persistent), divine feats (4th level Paladins get Turn Undead), and other feats may aid this build? While at that, what other feats can aid the build? Since this isn't meant for playing (yet...), consider that virtually any official book goes, with Dragon magazine content merely as suggestions.


Smiting Spell would be ideal for a gish, if you can get some decent touch spells. I find Sculpt Spell pretty indispensable for turning low-level spells into much more potent battlefield control spells.



3) While at that, which magic items would be worthwhile? I could think of a Cloak of Charisma and mithral armor, as well as probably a Badge of Valor.


Slippers of Battledance. Vest of Legends. Crystal Echoblade. Instrument of the Winds.



4) Has this been done before? I've seen builds blending Paladin with Nar Demonbinder, but none using Knight of the Weave.

I've played around with a similar idea, although I think I opted for Duskblade 1 + Psi-Hunter 2 (Dragon #281) for 3rd level spells. Paladin Hunter of Fiends 4 (Dragon #349) + Fiend Slayer 5 (Dragon #287) matched up remarkably well. Duskblade 9 + Warrior Skald 1 might also work if you can manage the skill points.

There are quicker ways to get 3rd level arcane spells. Focused Specialist Wizard 1 + Precocious Apprentice + Improved Sigil (Krau). Beguiler 1 + Versatile Spellcaster + Improved Sigil (Krau). Duskblade 5 + Improved Sigil (Krau) or Versatile Spellcaster + Arcane Disciple.

There may be other ways to pick up bardic music. Warrior Skald I already mentioned, which will help keep up your BAB. Orc Warlord 2, Warmaster 2, and Divine Prankster 1 all get Inspire Courage or something very close to it.

T.G. Oskar
2009-07-30, 12:56 AM
Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) or Skill Knowledge (UA).

I don't think Skill Knowledge would fly out well, since it's a feat mostly meant for an alternative skill system.

Flexible Mind is definitely out of the question, given that the first levels are of Paladin, and the [Anarchic] keyword mostly restricts any lawful character (It may have worked if for some odd reason it was a Paladin of Freedom, but the idea is to keep it with the classic Paladin)


Smiting Spell would be ideal for a gish, if you can get some decent touch spells. I find Sculpt Spell pretty indispensable for turning low-level spells into much more potent battlefield control spells.

The low-level spells from Knight of the Weave aren't very control-tasty. Smiting Spell would also be a trouble, since most touch spells are at times low-level.


Slippers of Battledance. Vest of Legends. Crystal Echoblade. Instrument of the Winds.

Care to tell where most of those are? I know that the Crystal Echoblade is in the Magic Item Compendium, but I fail to see the others.


I've played around with a similar idea, although I think I opted for Duskblade 1 + Psi-Hunter 2 (Dragon #281) for 3rd level spells. Paladin Hunter of Fiends 4 (Dragon #349) + Fiend Slayer 5 (Dragon #287) matched up remarkably well. Duskblade 9 + Warrior Skald 1 might also work if you can manage the skill points.

There are quicker ways to get 3rd level arcane spells. Focused Specialist Wizard 1 + Precocious Apprentice + Improved Sigil (Krau). Beguiler 1 + Versatile Spellcaster + Improved Sigil (Krau). Duskblade 5 + Improved Sigil (Krau) or Versatile Spellcaster + Arcane Disciple.

There may be other ways to pick up bardic music. Warrior Skald I already mentioned, which will help keep up your BAB. Orc Warlord 2, Warmaster 2, and Divine Prankster 1 all get Inspire Courage or something very close to it.

The idea is to get mostly Paladin for the Cha to saves plus the Turn Undead attempts to fuel divine feats (for example, Sacred Healing), as well as the immunities and whatnot. Since being a 4th level Paladin (and thus requiring a patron deity) allows you to get to Initiate of Milil, which allows you to stack Bard, Cleric and Paladin levels to determine the songs from Bardic Music, it means you could theoretically have an effective Bard level of "5" for Bardic Music, although no official uses of Bardic Music and whatnot.

The reason why to get Knight of the Weave is because of the roleplay feel, the idea of getting a relatively low-requirement PrC to get the feats, and because of the nifty Fast Metamagic ability which applies to any spontaneous spell (including Sublime Chord spells), plus the fact that it gets a limited amount of Paladin and Sorcerer/Wizard spells which depend on Charisma. This, along with the eventual increases in Will, make a Paladin's dependance on Wisdom completely null.

I checked the others, and the prerequisites aren't quite attractive for most of them (don't wish to be an Orc, Gnome, or lead a group though Leadership is tasty enough). Warrior Skald, however, seems pretty interesting even though it requires two feats (Power Attack and Cleave), gives the point of BAB, and grants a load of Bardic Music effects which are not limited to Inspire Courage (it actually grants up to Inspire Greatness straight at 1st level) Unfortunately, it requires two different kinds of Perform to get it (poetry, plus any other). Not like it can't be fixed (*coughcoughNymph'sKisscoughcough*), though. Also, it grants the needed Listen checks.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:06 AM
Just want to say bravo and carry on. :) Enjoyed the read, don't have much to add.