OOTS #671 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[FirebirdFlying]

Aw…bwuh…Celia!

(I wonder if I'm the only one who feels a bit sorry for her at this point).

And spawning the idea of a little pregnancy handbook for adventurers…

[Assassin89]

Interesting confusion by Haley regarding the meaning of dismiss.

It appears that Soon's oath has officially been nullified, and the next question is what waits the order on the western continent.

[tomaO2]

*tisks*

That wasn't nice Haley.

[Sharoth]

Another awesome comic, as usual! Keep up the good work, Giant!

[Ganurath]

*tisks*

That wasn't nice Haley.I respectfully disagree.

Nice...

[Starscream]

Even though I actually kind of like Celia, I must admit that was truly hilarious.

I get the feeling the end of the book with be in the next strip or so.

[Mauve Shirt]

:smalltongue: And Haley voices what half of the forum's been thinking/saying since Celia showed up!

Excellent comic.

[random_guy]

Looks like they're assuming the oracle was wrong since he named Girard's gate instead of Soon's gate.

[kpenguin]

The ponytail stays!:smallbiggrin:

[Half-blood]

I'm thinking that we might Meet Elans Father soon. But hey, who knows?

[Ron Miel]

Well, I was expecting one of the Azurites to travel with the order to Girards Gate. Shows how much I know.

[13_CBS]

As they say...

http://z.about.com/d/chemistry/1/0/-/e/fireice.jpg

[Janmorel]

*tisks*

That wasn't nice Haley.

But it was cathartic.

Really, Haley was doing her a favor. A lawyer should be more specific.

[Lunaya]

XD Haley's rapidly becoming one of my favorite characters. I couldn't have phrased that better myself.

[TigerHunter]

Looks like they're assuming the oracle was wrong since he named Girard's gate instead of Soon's gate.
Maybe. Does Roy remember the exact wording of his question, or did he forget that too? He did have it written down...

[SadisticFishing]

As they say, melting ice? o.O

Yay. Someone finally said that to Celia. <3

[NeonRonin]

Ah, on to the next chapter of the saga.

But seriously... DAMN, Haley. That was cold.

Funny, yes, and I'm sure many will agree with you... but still, that was cold. :smallsigh:

[Mando Knight]

Really, Haley was doing her a favor. A lawyer should be more specific.

Really, I don't think Celia should practice law in the Prime Material, if she can't remember the racial features of 90% of its population. :smalltongue:

[Lira]

I love that long panel showing everyone. And the expressions in the last panel. :smallbiggrin:

[Deepkicker]

Ah, so this book isn't quite over yet...
Belkar and Daigo's exchange in particular brought a smile to my face.

[kivzirrum]

I really enjoyed this comic a lot. Great punchline xD

[HOLEkevin]

This may sound goofy, but I was really hoping for a good joke at the bottom of that page.

I WIN!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Aw…bwuh…Celia!

(I wonder if I'm the only one who feels a bit sorry for her at this point).

And spawning the idea of a little pregnancy handbook for adventurers…

No, you aren't the only one. I don't get why everyone hates her... she's like a {{insert foreign nationality}} in {{your country}} who hasn't had the chance to study your culture and such.

And I'm the book's been done before, but go ahead, it should be interesting.

[Nevitan]

Hah Hah, nice one giant. Especially Belkar and Diego.

[SteveMB]

Interesting confusion by Haley regarding the meaning of dismiss.

Confusion? I don't think so.... :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Looks like they're assuming the oracle was wrong since he named Girard's gate instead of Soon's gate.
Why would the Order all be going to Girard's Gate next without further investigation if they were assuming the Oracle was wrong?

[Ormur]

Heh: "please don't remind me of all that I have done".

Do I detect a hint of remorse there. I wonder if it's just the failure or it includes the familicide.

[RedScholarGypsy]

:smalltongue: And Haley voices what half of the forum's been thinking/saying since Celia showed up!

Excellent comic.

Only half? :smallamused:

I laughed hard on this one. Good job as always.

[Milskidasith]

A great comic as always. I'm glad to see that V is still acting remorseful for his acts.

[Fitzclowningham]

Celia gave away half of Haley's money without asking her. Haley has not forgotten that, and imo can never trust/like Celia again.

[Elfin]

Awesome comic. :smalltongue:

[Snake-Aes]

"Yeah, what was I thinking?"
I like how Durkon's all priest-doctor with her!

[Kish]

Celia gave away half of Haley's money without asking her. Haley has not forgotten that, and imo can never trust/like Celia again.
Nope. And judging by the previous comic, Celia cares a whole lot, too.

[silversaraph]

Think Haley will be stingy enough after losing her money to take her clothes back? :smalltongue:

[Ron Miel]

Why would the Order all be going to Girard's Gate next without further investigation if they were assuming the Oracle was wrong?

They aren't assuming he was wrong. They think he's right, and so are going to Girard's Gate, in accordance with the prophecy. However, just in case he's wrong, they are also checking Kragor's gate.

[pendell]

WHOOSH! Haley shoots, SHE SCORES! A perfect 3-pointer right into
Celia's ego!


Although I think Celia's ahead ... forgot the score at this point...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[fractal]

Yeah, so 1. That was totally deliberate of Haley, and 2. Why didn't poor Hinjo level at all? He didn't participate in every sidequest, but he did fight the trolls and the demon and such. Or maybe he just didn't gain "a few" levels, but he did gain one?

On the other hand, I can easily see that if he started at, say, 13, O-Chul at 12, and Lien at maybe 10, that it could now be 14, 16, and 13, which is a logical enough reason to leave Hinjo at home, since he's the ruler.

[Squirrel_Token]

As always, epic awesome :)

[veti]

I'm choosing to believe - because I want to continue liking Haley - that she's joking there. She's surely been knocking about with Celia long enough to have gained some respect for her, in the same way as she has respect for Belkar.

Seriously - this coming from Elan's girlfriend? If it's not a joke, it's beyond cold.

[silvadel]

Hmm -- that is the most feminine I ever remember V looking.

The cat seems oddly bemused....

[RdMarquis]

Nice, the Order of the Stick is back on the road again.

Plus, Lien and O-Chul are travelling to the other gate, which means they'll get some screen time, too. The punchline was kind of mean, but very funny. :smallamused:

[FoE]

That. Was. Awesome.

I checked this at work. Luckily no one was around, or else they'd have heard me roaring with laughter.

[[TS] Shadow]

This is great. Way to go Giant!

[hajo]

The ponytail stays!:smallbiggrin:

With that, V looks a lot more like a girl now :smallamused:

[Pandora]

:D Haha... Mr. Scruffy... :smalltongue:

[infiniteviking]

Do I detect a hint of remorse there. I wonder if it's just the failure or it includes the familicide.

That makes two of us. I don't know, though -- he's got a heck of a lot to regret at this point; it could be anything, although the fact that he's showing it suggests to me that it's not just the failure.



Hmm -- that is the most feminine I ever remember V looking.

With that, V looks a lot more like a girl now :smallamused:

..How odd; I had exactly the opposite reaction! :smallwink:

[CapedLuigiYoshi]

My favorite part was the exchange between Belkar and Daigo.:smallbiggrin:

[Timberboar]

Loved the punchline. I've been waiting for that for awhile.

[Timberboar]

I'm choosing to believe - because I want to continue liking Haley - that she's joking there. She's surely been knocking about with Celia long enough to have gained some respect for her, in the same way as she has respect for Belkar.

Seriously - this coming from Elan's girlfriend? If it's not a joke, it's beyond cold.

Perhaps you missed the part where Celia effectively sentenced Haley's father to a lifetime of unjust imprisonment because she was dismissive of Haley?

[GSFB]

The ponytail simply makes parent look more like other parent...

[lothos]

Very nice comic. End of the book, or penultimate strip ?

[Random832]

Seems to confirm that this is indeed a Summoning effect, and not Calling as some people have argued. How much does that item have to be worth for what seems to be a permanent duration as opposed to Summon Monster's 1 round/level or Epic Summon's [base] 20 rounds?


I don't get why everyone hates her... she's like a {{insert foreign nationality}} in {{your country}} who hasn't had the chance to study your culture and such.

So what's her excuse for not understanding the concept of legal malpractice?

----

Anyway, my reaction if I were Haley? "So, wait, you can't leave until I say you can? Hmm..." *dramatic pause "You basically tried to sell me into slavery. Every day I want you to think about how this means I am a better person than you."

[SteveDJ]

Gee, this is like 3 or 4 strips in a row now that have all felt like good candidates for the end of the story arc - yet no announcement is present, so the arc continues...

How much longer are we going to be strung along like this...??? :smallbiggrin:

[Tyrael]

Great! I love the splash with the whole Order.

I'm a bit confused about the title, though--Celia doesn't appear to be missing her clothes (much to my disappointment) :smalltongue:

[The Tygre]

Well, nothing to say now but

BUUUUURRN!

[bird2234]

Great strip, Rich

[Porthos]

"You basically tried to sell me into slavery. Every day I want you to think about how this means I am a better person than you."

I love how people invent their own little facts about the comic. :smallsmile:

50% of "future wages" hardly equals slavery last time I checked.


Perhaps you missed the part where Celia effectively sentenced Haley's father to a lifetime of unjust imprisonment because she was dismissive of Haley?

Yes I did miss it. Could you please point me to that strip? Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

PS: It might have helped things a bit if Haley had actually, you know, TOLD Celia why Greysky City was such a bad place (instead of just saying "trust me").

Or, you know, actually told Celia that she needed all that gold to save her father.

Things might have been just a tad different if they had just... oh I dunno. TOLD each other things.

But, hey, it's much eaiser to blame Celia for all the ills of the world, inn't? :smalltongue:

[Pentegarn]

I'm choosing to believe - because I want to continue liking Haley - that she's joking there. She's surely been knocking about with Celia long enough to have gained some respect for her, in the same way as she has respect for Belkar.

Seriously - this coming from Elan's girlfriend? If it's not a joke, it's beyond cold.

After traveling with a pacifist who has issues with committing violent acts herself yet lets others commit violent acts on her behalf, not to mention erasing a large portion of Haley's progress toward freeing her father, I think Haley let her off easy. At least Belkar is willing to fight when needed (and even wen not needed) and has never made Haley lose half her money through self-righteous actions.

[Porthos]

and has never made Haley lose half her money through self-righteous actions.

"Her" money? :smallconfused:

Oh, you mean the money that (from Celia's perspective)* she stole? :smalltongue:

* Actual quote is: 50% of all money you ever stole since you left the Thieves Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html).

Remeber, Haley IS the one who scammed the Theives Guild in the first place. And she did say (i.e. lie) she was a member in Good Standing with the Theives Guild when she signed up with the OOTS.

Or is it "OK" when Haley does it? :smalltongue:

[Pentegarn]

"Her" money? :smallconfused:

Oh, you mean the money that (from Celia's perspective) she stole? :smalltongue:

Yes, sad what happens when you only want to see things from one perspective. You wind up doing something very bad to someone who was trying to free their father.

[Ceric]

Wow, I still can't get used to V's hair and all of O-chul's new scars. :smalleek: Hopefully the plot can start going again now.

[Porthos]

Yes, sad what happens when you only want to see things from one perspective. You wind up doing something very bad to someone who was trying to free their father.

Again, it's a shame that Celia didn't know about that.

IF ONLY there was some way Celia could have POSSIBLY known that.

Sadly, Haley is unable to tell people of this little problem of hers....


... Oh wait. She isn't? :smallconfused::smallconfused:

Well that might change things slightly. :smalltongue:

PS: I'm not a Haley basher. In fact, I really sympathize with her. But lets not make her blameless in all of this.

[Jagos]

I can't stop laughing at what Haley did to Celia. I guess they're not gonna be bff anytime soon. XD

[Degnared]

I assumed that Haley didn't give the Thieves Guild any of the gold she owed under Celia's negotiated terms. Haley said the deal is off here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html).

[Porthos]

A Point of Order concerning Haley's reaction to Celia's deal.

Haley wasn't upset about being made a member in good standing with the Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html) (and thus 50% of what SHE STEALS is taken by the TG).

She's perfectly fine with that. Re-read comic #620 if you don't believe me.

She only (understandably) wigs out when Celia explains the "retroactive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html)" bit that was negotiated.

Thus these comments about being sold into slavery are beyond silly. And completely unsupported by the actual comic.

Strange how people who are secretive can sometimes have that secretive nature come back and bite them in an inopportune time. :smallwink:

[random_guy]

They aren't assuming he was wrong. They think he's right, and so are going to Girard's Gate, in accordance with the prophecy. However, just in case he's wrong, they are also checking Kragor's gate.

Pretty much what I meant to say. They're not assuming he's wrong, but they don't have absolute faith in him.


I assumed that Haley didn't give the Thieves Guild any of the gold she owed under Celia's negotiated terms. Haley said the deal is off here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html).

The comic said, "I'm not paying him one copper piece ever again." I read that as Haley having already paid him and refusing to do so in the future. I Bozzok or the rest of the guild would be willing to help regain Roy's body before she paid them anything. Furthermore, I don't think we have seen the bags of gold ever since they left the guild.

[infiniteviking]

Uh, all this Haley hate and Ceila hate in the last page or so confuses me.

They're two very different people who were forced to work together for a time, during which each got on the other's nerves, faced danger on the other's behalf, and also did each others' hair and such. And at the end, Haley takes advantage of a perfectly good straight line and makes a sarcastic remark which could be taken as nasty if she hadn't intended it as a gag: the kind of gag, furthermore, that is completely in character for her. And Celia is naturally indignant. Also in character. And... so what? I, for one, don't see any eternal enmity building out of that.

Maybe I'm confused because I like them both, but geez, this isn't a Roy-Eugene situation here, people. Can't we all just get along?

[Porthos]

Uh, all this Haley hate and Ceila hate in the last page or so confuses me.

<snips a lot of good points>

Truth be told, I actually like Haley a heck of a lot better than I do Celia (I find the "new Celia" to be somewhat poorly written, actually). :smalltongue:

But what I don't like is people blaming things on Celia that she either didn't do or aren't her fault. Then my contrarian argumentative nature gets the better of me. :smallwink:

[BriarHobbit]

Very good. The team is united, and the next act is about to begin.

[Martok]

Good job, Giant! A very solid, well-rounded strip. (Yes, I actually just described a strip as being "well-rounded. Sue me.)

A hefty dose of humor (as it should be) along with a more serious moment as well (V expressing his remorse/regret). Very well done!



Even though I actually kind of like Celia, I must admit that was truly hilarious.
Ditto that. Celia annoys me to no end sometimes, but overall I like her more than I dislike her. And regardless, I agree Haley got the funniest line in the strip. :smalltongue:



I get the feeling the end of the book with be in the next strip or so.
Again, I concur. As I stated in another thread, I'm quite certain that this current story arc would be done no later than strip 680, based on how long most of the book collections have been thus far. Shouldn't be much longer now!

[Selene]

Aw O-Chul and Lien are going off to Kraagor's together. Couple? I think she's good enough for him.

Also, :smallyuk: to the Celia haters.

[fruityjanitor]

Nice comic. And I can't be the only one who is excited to see O-Chul teaming up with Lien to check out Kraagor's Gate. Sure, there probably won't be a ton of strips devoted to it, but I'm sure the strips we do see will be awesome :smallbiggrin:

I smiled a bit at the punchline, but I'm sure I would have enjoyed it more if I was in Celia's hate club. I can't say I agree with the things she has done, but I don't understand how she has earned so much hate. lol. Guess some of the forum-goers needed a new person to hate after Miko bit the dust? Or maybe I'm just so easygoing that it takes a lot to convince me to start hating somebody - even if they are a fictional character.

[Deuce]

Or is it "OK" when Haley does it? :smalltongue:

Works for me. :smalltongue:

[GSFB]

this is certainly not end of the book -

I think we need a final surprise from Team Evil, so that we leave this book in suspense - like they leave AC but not how we thought. We need a peek at LG, as they were mentioned by IFCC so we need a glimpse of where they are and where they are headed. and, there will probably one last new wrinkle, like a panel or two of someone new (maybe from one of the other gates) to leave readers asking "what's up with that?" These are classic cliff-hanger bits. I predict one big triple-length comic with all this and more for the final strip of this book.

[Needle]

A great one this time again =)

Maybe I'm too kind on departures? D: idk, but... loved all the strip and little chats between everyone :)

[Degnared]

The comic said, "I'm not paying him one copper piece ever again." I read that as Haley having already paid him and refusing to do so in the future. I Bozzok or the rest of the guild would be willing to help regain Roy's body before she paid them anything. Furthermore, I don't think we have seen the bags of gold ever since they left the guild.

Possible. My take was that the last time she paid Bozzok was before she quit the Thieves Guild. I'd hope the deal being off means she keeps what she sees as hers. I'd assume the gold is in the bags of holding, wherever she keeps those.

[Mike_G]

"Her" money? :smallconfused:

Oh, you mean the money that (from Celia's perspective)* she stole? :smalltongue:

* Actual quote is: 50% of all money you ever stole since you left the Thieves Guild (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html).

Remeber, Haley IS the one who scammed the Theives Guild in the first place. And she did say (i.e. lie) she was a member in Good Standing with the Theives Guild when she signed up with the OOTS.

Or is it "OK" when Haley does it? :smalltongue:


Dude.

Haley is a Rogue. A (possibly former) memeber of a Thieves Guild.

Stealing and lying are job requirements.

Now, as a reader I really like both Haley and Celia, as they fill their respective roles perfectly. I like Belkar as a character, but I wouldn't wnat to share a fighting hole with him. They're characters in a fantasy story.

But, man, who'd'a think the Thief would be dishonest? Or cagey with personal information? Or upset at losing her rightfully stolen gains?

Cue the MST3K theme.

[NYYanks6083]

Yeah, part of me wants to say that comment by Haley was unnecessarily harsh. Celia's not a bad person, she just gets a little self-righteous from time to time. However the bigger part of me is still laughing :smalltongue:

[Porthos]

Works for me. :smalltongue:

At least you're honest. :smalltongue:

PS: It's also "good for me" when Haley acts the way she does. :smallwink:

[Random832]

Thus these comments about being sold into slavery are beyond silly. And completely unsupported by the actual comic.

The key problem is that losses weren't considered for the deal. She has to pay them half of what she stole from the dragon.

And, yes it is slavery. The whole "can never quit" arrangement the guild seems to have would be illegal by itself in the modern world, and is the key reason they're evil instead of being neutral or good.

[FoE]

Also, :smallyuk: to the Celia haters.

And in response, I would like to say

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_1IG5houmW0Q/SL8tqi6EyvI/AAAAAAAAAJE/3zEfg_yyDlA/s320/simpsons_nelson_haha2.gif

to Celia. :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

But, man, who'd'a think the Thief would be dishonest? Or cagey with personal information?

Here's the thing. I have zero problem with Haley being secretive. :smallsmile: Actually I find it pretty funny most of the time. But what I do have a problem with is all of the people bitching about the mote in Celia's eye without looking at the spliter in Haley's. :smallwink:

Case in point. When Celia started to press about why they couldn't go to Greysky City to find a Cleric, she had a damn good reason to press the issue. This was the fastest way to get Roy back.

Now Haley also had a damn good reason not to go back to Greysky. But she didn't tell Celia those damn good reasons. SO how was Celia supposed to know?

All Haley had to say was: Look, Greysky City is practically run by the4 Thieves Guild. And me and them had a... minor falling out a while back.

*Celia says something naive and silly*

Haley: Look, what I am trying to say is if any one of the TG catches us in the towm they'll kill us both. So we can't go into that town. YOu can wait two more weeks till we get to Cliffport.

If Celia, after knowing that Haley is under a death sentence if she went into Greysky still went there, then I could understand the stuff thrown at her. But Haley didn't share that info. And last time I checked, that's what responsible Party Leaders do. :smallamused:

PS: Course if Haley had done that, then none of the GS adventures would have happened. Which means that we still might be waiting for Team OotS to be reunited (though Super V might have had a more forceful role in getting the gang back together if that had happened :smalltongue:). So perhaps it wasn't all bad for Haley (and the readers) narratively speaking. :smalltongue:

[NYYanks6083]

And to Celia ...


Brilliant:smallamused:

[FlawedParadigm]

You know, technically speaking...and I mean, REALLY technically, all the gold Haley ever acquired (excepting, perhaps, tricking the rest of the order out of their shares with the rocks bit) since leaving the guild was *earned* by adventuring, not actually *stolen*, so by Celia's wording, Haley's wouldn't have owed the guild a clipped copper piece.

[DnDgeek13]

the dismissal thing at the end was random but all together good comic.

[FoE]

But Haley didn't share that info. And last time I checked, that's what responsible Party Leaders do.

:haley: OK, quick guide: bald with dark skin? Takes responsibility for other people's actions. Sexy redhead with fair skin? Takes responsibility for her own actions.

Leaders are held responsible for their followers under the assumption that the leader has SOME degree of control over them. Which is not the case here.

[chiasaur11]

A good one.

Solid punchline, plot advancement, whole deal.

[amanamana]

Didn't anyone noticed that the splash is basically the Last Supper?
That is awesome!:smallbiggrin:

[FlawedParadigm]

And while I'm being very, very technical, wasn't it Tsukiko's Electric Orb spell that broke the summoning talisman, not Haley?

[Porthos]

The key problem is that losses weren't considered for the deal. She has to pay them half of what she stole from the dragon.

"stole from the dragon"???? :smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Last time I checked, adventuring wasn't stealing. And last time I checked looting a Dragon's Horde definitely wasn't stealing.

In fact, the only things that would really count as stealing are when she stole from her own party members or from Toad Man. In fact, I am quite certain that it was the Toad Man's loot that the Thieves Guild was primarily concerned about, given all of the trouble they were going to have with him about it.


And, yes it is slavery. The whole "can never quit" arrangement the guild seems to have would be illegal by itself in the modern world, and is the key reason they're evil instead of being neutral or good.

How is that any different from taxes? Last time I checked, you can't quit those either. :smalltongue:

And if Haley doesn't want to pay the TG anything, then she just doesn't steal anything. Simple. :smallsmile:

Besides, and you may not know this if you don't have Origins, the only reason Haley is even a member of Team OotS is that she claimed that she was a member of the Thieves Guild. In fact Roy even went as far as saying that he didn't want to hire a scab. :smalltongue:

So membership of the Thieves Guild isn't as disreputable in OotS land as it might be in Real Life. :smallwink:

[thepsyker]

For those saying that Haley was to harsh, is what she said about Celia really any worse than what Celia said about her to Roy? Despite the time they spent with each other it seems to me that they still don't really understand the way the other and this seems to be true about both of them. Celia doesn't understand where Haley is coming from with her background and Haley doesn't seem to understand where Celia is coming from with her background.

[Yellow]

That was a little mean, Haley.

Or rather, a little Chaotic Evil.

[Porthos]

:haley: OK, quick guide: bald with dark skin? Takes responsibility for other people's actions. Sexy redhead with fair skin? Takes responsibility for her own actions.

Leaders are held responsible for their followers under the assumption that the leader has SOME degree of control over them. Which is not the case here.

Oh that's fine as far as excusing Belkar's behavior. But when her secretive nature lands her in a predictament and all she tried to do to stop it was (basically) say, "Trust Me", I think it is fair to say that she holds some blame in all of this mess. :smallwink:

And, again I hate to bring up the actual comic in all of this discussion, Haley wasn't upset at Celia sneaking off on her own. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html) In fact, she kinda approved of it. What she didn't approve of is Celia losing Roy's body. :smalltongue:


That was a little mean, Haley.

Or rather, a little Chaotic Evil.

Please please please tell me you are kidding here. :smallconfused:

[FoE]

Besides, and you may not know this if you don't have Origins, the only reason Haley is even a member of Team OotS is that she claimed that she was a member of the Thieves Guild. In fact Roy even went as far as saying that he didn't want to hire a scab. :smalltongue:

So membership of the Thieves Guild isn't as disreputable in OotS land as it might be in Real Life. :smallwink:

Hold it, hold it. Roy insisted on official Guild membership because he didn't want assassins coming after him for hiring a scab. Plain and simple.

And she sufficiently warned Celia of the danger. Do you share every embarrassing and shady detail of your past with casual acquaintances? And anyways, Haley had nothing to do with Celia failing to recognize that Greysky City was a hive of scum and villainry. She screwed that up all on her own, baby.

[Porthos]

Hold it, hold it. Roy insisted on official Guild membership because he didn't want assassins coming after him for hiring a scab. Plain and simple.

Well, yeah. :smallsmile: But the way he said it didn't imply that he was actually scared of the assassins. In fact, my reading of it was that he would view them as an annoyance that he didn't want to deal with.

What I was saying is that Roy didn't attach any negatives (morally speaking) to Thieves Guild membership. Which, if you recall, was the point I was adressing. :smallwink:

<EXACT DIALOGUE>
:roy: Well everything looks to be in order. You've got the job.
:haley: awesometastic:
:roy: I'll just need to examine your current Thieves' Guild membership as a formality. Then we can get started.
:haley: Uh... What?
:roy: Thieves' Guild. You are a member, right? I just need to see your card to make sure you're all up-to-date on your dues and such.
:roy: This is a serious quest, and the last thing I need is a bunch of guild assassins stalking us for hiring scabs.

(rest of dialogue unimportant)

Now besides making fun of Union Hiring Rules (which was 95% of the joke) it also shows that, like it or not, the Thieves' Guild is reputable. Or at least reputable enough for adventures (and at least one LG one to boot). Which, come to think of it, is a subtle commentary on DnD Logic as well. :smallamused:

EDIT:::


And she sufficiently warned Celia of the danger.

except, clearly she didn't. :smalltongue: She knew how desperate Celia was to get Roy back. Heck, if anything, Haley should recognize the same zeal in Celia in regards to Roy as her own feelings in regards to her own father.


Do you share every embarrassing and shady detail of your past with casual acquaintances?
If I can see that someone Isn't Getting The Hint, I might share a detail or two to impress on Celia why Greysky is such bad news, yes. She doesn't have to tell Celia anything embaressing. Just that the Thieves' Guild runs the town and that it's very probable that they'll be killed on sight if they walk into town.

Really, that's not to much to share, now is it?


And anyways, Haley had nothing to do with Celia failing to recognize that Greysky City was a hive of scum and villainry. She screwed that up all on her own, baby.

Well, yeah. I fail to see tho where I said Celia was blameless in that regard. :smalltongue:

Shorter Porthos: BOTH Celia and Haley screwed up. :smallamused:

[Adeen]

Loved the long horizontal panel.

Go Durkon! Go Lien!

Enjoyed the funny reminder of past events from Belkar.

REALLY enjoyed Haley laying the metaphorical smack down on Celia.

And to conclude, is it wrong for me to want V and O-Chul to hook up?

[Itamarcu]

Very nice comic, like others I bet the next one\two will be the last in the book.
I LOLed when I saw Haley's answer.
Did you saw where mr. Scruffy is looking?:smallbiggrin:

[lothos]

Aw O-Chul and Lien are going off to Kraagor's together. Couple? I think she's good enough for him.

Also, :smallyuk: to the Celia haters.

YES, I had been thinking about that too. I even wondered if in some epilogue after the strip has finished (let's hope it's many years real world time from now) that we might see O-Chul and Lien's child(ren) and they would be awesome paladins too.

[Jaxon]

LOL. Awesome.

I especially liked the exchange between Belkar & Daigo. Priceless.

[Pip]

We're four pages in and no one has mentioned the most important development: At his first opportunity O'Chul set up an excuse for some extened alone-time with Lien.

:smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Celia and Haley don't like each other. Too bad, so sad.

I would form an opinion on the morality of Celia's actions toward Haley, but whenever I think about one of Haley's companions stealing from her I hit a mental short circuit and dissolve into helpless laughter. Somewhat ironically, I think if I felt like I was expected to sympathize with any of the Order more than occasionally, I would probably have stopped enjoying the comic a long time ago.

[factotum]

And while I'm being very, very technical, wasn't it Tsukiko's Electric Orb spell that broke the summoning talisman, not Haley?

No, because it didn't break when she was hit with the Orb--it broke later, when she took it out of her pocket and some sort of residual charge from the Orb fired off.

[Morthis]

+10 cool points for Haley.

[Optimystik]

*Heart feels warm*

*Applauds Haley*


But, hey, it's much eaiser to blame Celia for all the ills of the world, inn't? :smalltongue:

No, just the ones she causes.

[Allerdyce]

Gotta say, I like V's new look with the ponytail. I'm guessing at this point he'll probably keep it permanently. And man, the jokes are thick enough to be cut with a knife in this one! I approve.

[Porthos]

No, just the ones she causes.

<not entierly serious>
Let me know when that actually happens on this thread. Thanks in advance. :smalltongue:
</not entierly serious>

[FlawedParadigm]

No, because it didn't break when she was hit with the Orb--it broke later, when she took it out of her pocket and some sort of residual charge from the Orb fired off.

...A residual charge from the Orb is still an effect of the Orb. Unless we're claiming the static electricity of Haley's pocket is the culprit?

Bad point is bad.

[Porthos]

...A residual charge from the Orb is still an effect of the Orb. Unless we're claiming the static electricity of Haley's pocket is the culprit?

Bad point is bad.

So, under that logic, Belkar did kill Roy. :smallwink: Well that and all of the other factors that the Oracle mentioned in that infamous strip.

[Totally Guy]

You mean to say that Haley could have magically sent Celia away at any point?

[Twilight Jack]

You mean to say that Haley could have magically sent Celia away at any point?

No, not at any point . . . only when it was funny.

[rxmd]

"Last time I checked, adventuring wasn't stealing.

Just as a matter of interest, just where did you "check" that? Do you happen to have a Thieves' Guild Charter in your closet, or did you read up the entry on "adventuring" in the Encyclopedia Belkarrica?

[Porthos]

Just as a matter of interest, just where did you "check" that? Do you happen to have a Thieves' Guild Charter in your closet, or did you read up the entry on "adventuring" in the Encyclopedia Belkarrica?

Nah, I just referenced whatever the relevant page on TV Tropes was for this topic. :smalltongue:

<But seriously now>
Are we really going to say that looting a dragon's hoard is stealing? C'mon now. There's Deconstructing Tropes and then there's Turning Everything Into Fine Mush. :smalltongue:
</But seriously now>

[Itamarcu]

Wait a minute!!!

What about O-chul's mount?!?!? does he have one?

[GarmStoylen]

Nah, I just referenced whatever the relevant page on TV Tropes was for this topic. :smalltongue:

<But seriously now>
Are we really going to say that looting a dragon's hoard is stealing? C'mon now. There's Deconstructing Tropes and then there's Turning Everything Into Fine Mush. :smalltongue:
</But seriously now>

We are probably not going to say that, but the Thieves' Guild will more than likely definitely say that.

Breaking and entering (and killing the occupant if he/she/it resists...) is pretty much exactly what they do, after all. I highly doubt Bozzack would let a chance for gold slip by just because they victim was a Dragon.

Celia likely did not even think of this, of course.

Which is not unreasonable.

Which also fits Haley's point exactly. :)

[Tyrmatt]

Wait a minute!!!

What about O-chul's mount?!?!? does he have one?

Oh my...this is where he busts out the giant eagle or a huge wolf. This is gonna be the final panel of O-Chul unleashing the fury. *squeeee*

Or maybe O-Chul will just glare at the ocean until it parts and lets him run to the continent.

Intriguing that V is keeping the tied back hair. Looks like the goal is restraint from now on. And Durkon is adorable and admirable in his role as physician. I have a vague memory of reading that dwarves actually get along best with the grandchildren of humans they've known so it makes sense that he's a fan of kids as well. I forget how long lived they are in 3.5.

[aka Argent]

Thieves Guilds take half of Earnings not just what you steal, half of everything you earn while a member of the guild. And they get it on the gross, not the net.

[rxmd]

Thieves Guilds take half of Earnings not just what you steal, half of everything you earn while a member of the guild. And they get it on the gross, not the net.

Not that there's much difference between the two when your business model consists of stealing stuff.

[Morquard]

Well, while I like Celia, I do think Haley was spot-on. Celia does think she knows everything better, even if she has no clue.
I still like her though.

About the Graysky incidents... well I blame BOTH of them for that.
Haley DID warn Celia not to go to Greysky, said that its a bad idea and to trust her. She should have said more there.
Celia on the other hand should have realised that Haley IS just as much interessted in rezzing Roy as she is, and if she is willing to go out of her way to avoid a city and states its a bad idea, then she should believe it is a bad idea.
She was also too naive to see people carrying corpses, murdering people left and right, and state clearly that she wants Roy rezzed instead of turned into some construct.

But yeah, since adventuring is a profession in OotS-verse, the money she earned by adventuring are technically earnings not stealing. So the dragonhoard would be excluded. If the TG agrees with that assessment is something else.

Besides Celia should really finish her law-classes before ever negotiating anything again. I'm sure somewhere there she'll learn to "ask your client before you agree to some deal you know they will object".

[Excal]

Porthos, there is one small flaw in your argument that Haley should have told Celia more about the situation in Greysky. Namely, that telling Celia anything more specific would actually make it more likely that Celia would go down, not less.

Given her training in Law, if Haley gives Celia too many details, then she can pick at Haley's statement until she gets to the core of the issue. ie. The TG owns all the clerics, and they will kill Haley on sight for quitting the guild. And I'm suspecting Celia's response wouldn't be "Gee Haley, you're right, let's skip Greysky" but more likely to be "That's easy to solve. You stay here while I go and deal with the Guild." And the last thing Haley wants here is a pacifist who obviously has cash alone by herself in Greysky.

So, her best bet is actually exactly what she did. As has been noted, Haley wasn't the leader of that party. When push came to shove, neither of the people travelling with Haley would listen to her. So, it's very likely that with details, Celia would decide she knew best (like she did anyways), whereas here Haley made a plea not to an argument as to why this is a bad idea, but instead for Celia to trust her and her expertise in this field. And in the end, this experience is dismissed for a chance at ressurecting Roy, as opposed to a more concrete plan of action that would have come into being had Haley told Celia what you are suggesting should have been told.

[Demiurge]

Wasn't Haley there when V stated that eir forbidden school was transmutation?

[Teddy]

Ah, awesome farwell scene! O-Chul and V, Elan and Hinjo, and Lien and Haley discussing Haley's new haircut (had a thought of something like that gnawing at the back of my head back for a while ago...). And then we got Haley's dismissal. Masterpiece!

[rxmd]

But yeah, since adventuring is a profession in OotS-verse, the money she earned by adventuring are technically earnings not stealing.

Thievery is a profession, too, so by your definition technically what a thief steals is earnings, not stealing.

I mean you have this cave with dragon A inside and a hoard that belongs to dragon B, who's away. You kill dragon A and take the stuff that belongs to dragon B. How can that not be stealing? At best, it can be armed robbery, assuming that you think the hoard belonged to A instead of B (however, they do understand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) that there's another dragon).

Well, unless you assume that taking stuff from dragons or from Evil people is somehow OK because they're dragons or Evil. Note that it's still stealing, just the OK kind, which gets the label "adventuring" so that people don't notice that it's actually stealing. It's probably OK for Evil adventuring parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) to take stuff from Good people too then, just as long as they are adventuring when doing so. :smalltongue:

[Teddy]

Wasn't Haley there when V stated that eir forbidden school was transmutation?

Conjuration, not transmutation. V pity that teleportation has become conjuration, not transmutation as it was when V chose a forbidden school in an earlier edition.

[Demiurge]

Ah, yes, my mistake. Same principle applies.

Also, Haley needs black leather. You know, to complete the PKW Sikozu look. But without the wierd makeup.

[factotum]

Ah, yes, my mistake. Same principle applies.


Yes, she was there, but she was ALSO there when spliced-V teleported all of them to the island. Therefore I think it's perfectly reasonable for her to be asking "Well, he could teleport all of us yesterday, why can't he do it now?".

[Morquard]

Thievery is a profession, too, so by your definition technically what a thief steals is earnings, not stealing.
A sparrow is a bird, but it is not a chicken.
A chicken is a bird as well, but that doesn't make it less of a chicken.

So in the same line of thought:
Adventuring is earning money, but not stealing.
Stealing is still earning money, but that doesn't make it less stealing.

Or in other words, Adventuring and Theivery are both different professions. Earnings from one are called Stealing, the one from the other Adventure Loot or whatever.

Since it said "that you stole" it just refers to the Thievery profession, not adventuring. Or are you saying our good Durkon or Roy are ruthless thiefs? They were in no way objecting to taking the gold. Actually they thought Haley was cheating them out of their fair share. (which she did, but in a different way than they thought.)

And yes, that additional share she got, that would count as stealing, but then the TG doesn't know about it :)


I mean you have this cave with dragon A inside and a hoard that belongs to dragon B, who's away. You kill dragon A and take the stuff that belongs to dragon B. How can that not be stealing? At best, it can be armed robbery, assuming that you think the hoard belonged to A instead of B (however, they do understand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) that there's another dragon).

Well, unless you assume that taking stuff from dragons or from Evil people is somehow OK because they're dragons or Evil. Note that it's still stealing, just the OK kind, which gets the label "adventuring" so that people don't notice that it's actually stealing. It's probably OK for Evil adventuring parties (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html) to take stuff from Good people too then, just as long as they are adventuring when doing so. :smalltongue:
Adventure parties that enter a dungeon, kill a monster (dragon qualifies) are adventuring and taking the loot, not breaking and enterting. Yeah, in the real world it would be pretty much the same, but in th DnD world its a difference.

As for the evil party... If they take it from a monster its loot, if they kill a town and loot the houses, its not. Difference is, the evil party doesn't care :)

[FlawedParadigm]

So, under that logic, Belkar did kill Roy. Well that and all of the other factors that the Oracle mentioned in that infamous strip.

Porthos, you're usually an excellent poster, so I'm hoping you're just being sarcastic here, but in case you aren't...

We know, from Celia in #529, that the talisman could be broken by magic energy - and is specifically weak to electricity. In #528, we *visibly* see the after-spark from the Electric Orb. Haley specifically mentions she hopes the shock didn't damage the talisman, so she was obviously making no attempt to break it herself. So, we have actual, inarguable proof of the cause, and that other guy was actually sitting there and arguing it. Like I said, bad point is bad. It's got nothing to do with "Belkar killed Roy" logic. This is based all on stuff characters explicitly stated (and in the case of #529, specifically answering why Roy had no luck breaking the amulet - although it's because Celia's love affair with the Idiot Ball.)

[Morquard]

It would certainly be funny if Haley goes "Ok, I dismiss you back to your plane" - "Uh, why am I still here?" and then figure out that its the goth chick that has to dismiss her :)

:haley: You know Celia, since we are... I mean you are stuck with us for a bit longer... what I said back there... I didn't really mean it.

[Delgarde]

:haley: OK, quick guide: bald with dark skin? Takes responsibility for other people's actions. Sexy redhead with fair skin? Takes responsibility for her own actions.

:belkar: And short fuzzy-headed psychopath? Takes responsibility for nobody. :)

[Delgarde]

Wait a minute!!!

What about O-chul's mount?!?!? does he have one?

Has to be the tarasque. What other creature would survive five minutes of the kind of danger he appears to routinely throw himself into? :)

[Pyron]

Has to be the tarasque. What other creature would survive five minutes of the kind of danger he appears to routinely throw himself into? :)

A dues ex machina. :smallbiggrin:

[Delgarde]

I mean you have this cave with dragon A inside and a hoard that belongs to dragon B, who's away. You kill dragon A and take the stuff that belongs to dragon B. How can that not be stealing? At best, it can be armed robbery, assuming that you think the hoard belonged to A instead of B (however, they do understand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) that there's another dragon).

Oh, absolutely - 90% of what any adventuring party does would be illegal almost anywhere they go. To quote from Terry Pratchett's Last Hero:


You could say that a hero, in short, is someone who indulges every whim that, within the rule of law, would have him behind bars or swiftly dancing what I believe is known as the hemp fandango. The words we might use are: murder, pillage, theft, and rape. Have I understood the situation?
- Lord Vetinari

In short, even the most lawful heroes tend to to survive mostly on their increasing ability to get away with it.

[Estelindis]

Oh, that was the awesomest strip in forever! All the characters got a little something. :smallsmile: It's nice to see the paladins and the Order cooperating in such a sensible and efficient fashion, and the farewells were really poignant to me (even the ones that were funny). Felt a bit sorry for V... Also, Haley's dismissal was hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Demiurge]

Most DnD groups stop short of rape.

[grouchybeast]

A dues ex machina. :smallbiggrin:

I thought for a second there you were talking about Haley's Guild fees.

[lothos]

Has to be the tarasque. What other creature would survive five minutes of the kind of danger he appears to routinely throw himself into? :)

I like it, O-Chul's special mount is the Tarrasque ! It has a certain cool awesomeness to the idea.. it just fits. What other creature has a high enough constitution ?

Or perhaps his mount should be another member of MitD's species... whatever that is (assuming it's not the tarrasque or course). Though that's not a serious suggestion, I guess it's impossible anyway, or he would have probably recognised what species MitD was.

Perhaps Bahumat might be a good candidate for O-Chul's mount :-)

[Belkster11]

I don't think it matters if Haley should've explained or not.

Haley's the leader, whether she believes she's a good one or not. Whatever she says goes.

That's like if I were in Iraq with a soldier and he says "Whatever you do, don't go into that city." and points at it in the horizion. He doesn't need to give me specific details or a lecture of why I can't go. That's the bottom line. That's it. All the leader has to say is "No, we're not doing it."

Same with Haley and Celia. Celia's effectvily a civillian following the leader of a group (or small army, even though at the time it consisted of Haley, a comatized SSGOW and a kitty). Haley says don't go into that city, she means it. It's a dangerous, deadly place.

Now, as for the gold to free Haley's dad? Well, yeah, Haley could have said something to Celia.

[TerrickTerran]

I enjoy it when a character says what I've been thinking. Good job Haley.

[Hawgh]

bwahahaa, that was one great punchline.

[Rutigris]

*haha* One chick not liking another chick.. and all bystanders (read forum users) taking sides for one or the other.. where have I seen that before?! Oh, yeah! Everywhere! :smalltongue:

I for one can let Haley have that one, even if you do like another person you're allowed some grumpytime aren't you?

[sam79]

I don't think it matters if Haley should've explained or not.

Haley's the leader, whether she believes she's a good one or not. Whatever she says goes.

That's like if I were in Iraq with a soldier and he says "Whatever you do, don't go into that city." and points at it in the horizion. He doesn't need to give me specific details or a lecture of why I can't go. That's the bottom line. That's it. All the leader has to say is "No, we're not doing it."

Same with Haley and Celia. Celia's effectvily a civillian following the leader of a group (or small army, even though at the time it consisted of Haley, a comatized SSGOW and a kitty). Haley says don't go into that city, she means it. It's a dangerous, deadly place.


Not sure we can directly transpose modern military chains of command to adventuring parties. Even Roy, the 'rightful' leader, has a relationship that, to start with, was an employee/employer basis, backed up by contracts. After learning that Xykon still 'lived', the Order members joined Roy more or less voluntarily. The Order is not an army, and leaders of parties cannot and do not act as if they are due unquestioned obedience (we see the resentment this kind of behaviour caused when Miko arrested the Order). The members cannot be treated like soldiers, who a drilled/programmed to immediately obey their officers. They are a group of powerful individuals whose ties are horizontal more than vertical, a bunch of near-equals. And because of this, an instruction from the leader will have to be recognized as a reasonable one if it is to be taken notice of. Quite apart from the fact that both Celia and Haley would probably not consider the slyph to be an 'official' part of the Order of the Stick anyway, thus making any reliance on the Order's 'command hierarchy' largely irrelevant.

So, Haley would have done better to say WHY she didn't want Celia to do to Greysky City if she expected her to take the instruction seriously. "It's run by the thieves' guild and no-one powerful enough to raise Roy is trustworthy" would probably have done the trick.

[Armitage]

Haley's the leader, whether she believes she's a good one or not. Whatever she says goes.
Haley was the leader of the OotS. Celia is not a formal member. So she didn't need to follow Haley's orders.

Even more important: Since she arrived on this plane, Celia was the de facto leader.
She made Haley leave Azure City.
She had a plan how to get by the hobgoblin guards. (Ok, that didn't work out quite as well as she planned, but plans and first contact with the enemy and everything).
She solved the Thieves Guild situation. (Once again: For the moment)

So, as Haley herself said: She isn't really a good leader, and in everything but the name she wasn't.



That's like if I were in Iraq with a soldier and he says "Whatever you do, don't go into that city." and points at it in the horizion. He doesn't need to give me specific details or a lecture of why I can't go. That's the bottom line.
That so not the same.
When you're in Iraq you know that there are insurgents.
From Celias point of view, a human city isn't potentially enemy territory.



Haley says don't go into that city, she means it. It's a dangerous, deadly place.
How should Celia now it is a "dangerous, deadly place"? Haley didn't tell her. And since she didn't that grat a job as leader, Celia hat no reason to assume that Haley this one time might be right.

The whole "trust me on this even though I don't give you any reason for my descision" thing doesn't work when you're proven yourself to be unreliable.
And it doesn't work with somebody you know has quite different opinions from you in a lot of things. (And we all know Haley and Celia don't see eye to eye in about everything.)



Disclaimer: I like Haley. I like her a lot. But she did just a so-so job as leader of the resistance and an even worse job as leader afterwards.

[Estelindis]

For those saying that Haley was to harsh, is what she said about Celia really any worse than what Celia said about her to Roy?
And at least Haley said it to Celia's face rather than behind her back. :smallsmile:


Despite the time they spent with each other it seems to me that they still don't really understand the way the other and this seems to be true about both of them. Celia doesn't understand where Haley is coming from with her background and Haley doesn't seem to understand where Celia is coming from with her background.
I agree with this. Neither of them can really see that much into the other's world. It's not just that they're too different... I think they're too different *and* they don't actually want to see things from the other's point of view. There's a basic lack of respect between them.

[Dark Faun]

Haley is quickly supplanting V as my favorite character. :smalltongue:

Yes, I found her murder of Crystal awesome. :smallwink:

[Tweed]

Heh: "please don't remind me of all that I have done".

Do I detect a hint of remorse there. I wonder if it's just the failure or it includes the familicide.

I can't imagine s/he feels remorse about The Great Dragon Holocaust. From my perspective, s/he's regretting entering into the soul bind in the first place, since his/her partner was so appalled by what s/he had done when s/he found out.

[Hacktor]

heh... nice :D

[Selene]

That's like if I were in Iraq with a soldier and he says "Whatever you do, don't go into that city." and points at it in the horizion. He doesn't need to give me specific details or a lecture of why I can't go. That's the bottom line. That's it. All the leader has to say is "No, we're not doing it."

Have you ever seen the movie Labyrinth? Sarah is trying to get to the castle at the center of the labyrinth to save her brother from the Goblin King. A muppet worm tells her how to get past the illusion hiding the openings in the walls. As she turns to walk down the corridor...

Worm: Don't go that way! Never go that way!
Sarah: Oh, ok. Thanks! (She heads off in the opposite direction.)
Worm: If she'd 'ave kept on goin' down that way she'd 'ave gone straight to that castle.

They're not in a war zone. Celia can't be expected to act as if they are. A more appropriate analogy would be a soldier not bothering to tell you that you were in Iraq. What was obvious to Haley was not obvious to Celia.

[Ravenwind]

The key problem is that losses weren't considered for the deal. She has to pay them half of what she stole from the dragon.

And, yes it is slavery. The whole "can never quit" arrangement the guild seems to have would be illegal by itself in the modern world, and is the key reason they're evil instead of being neutral or good.

So by your reasoning, the Mafia is a slaver operation.

As are the Masons.

Interesting perspective! :)

[banjo1985]

And so the Order split from the uneccessarily massive sidecast! While I like most of them, it will be good to move on to the next gate.

[Kastanok]

Deserved :P And even if it isn't, well played. :smallamused:

Wondering why paralysis in particular might be bad for a foetus... will think on that for a while.

Favourite bit is the oh-so-natural conversation between Haley and Lien.

I found myself imagining Hinjo and Elan how it might be in live-action or animated: Elan, trying to hold himself together, puts something into Hinjo's hand and runs off bawling. Hinjo opens his hand to reveal that eyepatch. Pitying half-smile from Hinjo, like as to a child.

[lothos]

Just thought - "The adventures of O-Chul and Lien", title for the next non-compilation book ?
Maybe them and team peregrine with Thanh?

Whatever Rich does for the next non-compilation book, it needs to be either some kind of prequel or something parallel to the main story that you don't have to know to follow the main strip.....

[Ron Miel]

Now, as for the gold to free Haley's dad? Well, yeah, Haley could have said something to Celia.

Note - by this time Haley no longer had any money to free her dad. All her accumulated wealth prior to this had been spent buying weapons for the resistance.

[ringsnake]

Well, now I know what the verbal component on that spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dismissal.htm) is.

[SteveMB]

All Haley had to say was: Look, Greysky City is practically run by the4 Thieves Guild. And me and them had a... minor falling out a while back.

Even saying that much risks exposing her lie (back when she was first hired on to the party in OtOoPCs) about being a member in good standing of the Thieves' Guild, if it ever got back to Roy after he was rezzed. Maybe it would have been better for her to take that risk, but declining to do so is very much in character for her.

[SteveMB]

I mean you have this cave with dragon A inside and a hoard that belongs to dragon B, who's away. You kill dragon A and take the stuff that belongs to dragon B. How can that not be stealing?

One can make an argument for why it is stealing, and an argument for why it is not stealing.

Three guesses which side of the debate the Thieves' Guild (which gets a cut from the proceeds when its members steal) comes down on. First two don't count.

[los olvidados]

Haley shoots and scores! Ouch. :smalltongue:

Also, re-reading, I just had a very naughty thought as to how that 'dismissal' could have been so much more brutal...

Swap out the 'i' in twit for an 'a'.
:smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

Haley shoots and scores! Ouch. :smalltongue:

Also, re-reading, I just had a very naughty thought as to how that 'dismissal' could have been so much more brutal...

Swap out the 'i' in twit for an 'a'.
:smallbiggrin:

Not so brutal across the Pond, where it simply means "idiot".

[KB1PKL]

Look at Hinjos cat, watching Roy and Celia making out. Isn't it perverted? But cute, so w/e

[the_tick_rules]

Cat fight!!!!!

[Calamity]

Look at Hinjos cat, watching Roy and Celia making out. Isn't it perverted? But cute, so w/e

Don't you mean Belkar's cat? :smalltongue:

After all, he's the one looking after it now.

[Lord Seth]

I agree with Haley's second-to-last line. I'm glad someone finally told Celia off.

[Inkling]

Ah, yes, the expressions in the last two panels... lovely. :smalltongue:

[berrew]

Just thought - "The adventures of O-Chul and Lien", title for the next non-compilation book ?Eh - too boring. I like them as minor characters, but they don't have enough foibles to make them the main event.

[kusje]

You're an annoying twit who doesn't know as much as she thinks she does.

Question: Is it correct for someone to suddenly switch to third person in the middle of a sentence?

[Herald Alberich]

Question: Is it correct for someone to suddenly switch to third person in the middle of a sentence?

The third-person pronouns in the subordinate clause refer to the noun "twit", which is the object of the verb "are", not the subject "you". So yes, in this case.

[Drakyn]

I'd be able to dislike Celia more, and find the last line more funny, if her air-headedness (zomg racism) wasn't incredibly random. She acts normal up until the moment Haley breaks her talisman, and then suddenly she acquires a fistfull of "durr" moments and blind spots right up to the present day. I realize we didn't see her a lot before this, but you'd think naiviety of this level would shine through somewhere earlier, even if it's mostly for the lulz.

What particularly clinches it is that this sort of behaviour seems to switch on and off like a light switch, so sometimes it's hard to tell if she's going to be an idiot or highly intelligent in any given strip. It's like if instead of ethan consistently being a nice doofus who tries for the right thing, he was a doofus half the time and utterly noble and competent without a hint of silliness the other half.

[Doug Lampert]

And regardless, I agree Haley got the funniest line in the strip. :smalltongue: Nah, that's Diego. Haley is number three in this comic.

[Demiurge]

Celia's like the Colonel O'Neil of the elemental planes.

[kamuishirou]

Awesome! I loved the splash with everyone interacting with each other.

This comic feels like it's the build up before something big. Can't wait!

[jmucchiello]

Although I doubt it, this could also be the beginning the next book. It's a nice little recap of where everyone is coming from and going to. The framing of the last panel in 670 is just a great way to end a book.

Of course the next one will come out and prove me wrong with its "perfect ending to a book"-ness.

[brandr]

fantastic wrap up. i loved how the classic oots 4th wall out-of-character humor made a reappearance managing to bring up relevant points answer some questions readers may have had. victory!

[sihnfahl]

As they say, melting ice? o.O
It's so cold, it burns.

(For a similar feeling, put your bare hand against a block of dry ice and hold it there...)

[Pip]

As for the V pony-tail questions, I think the answer is clear; TOOTS has a quota of one pony-tail. Since Haley lost hers, V has to keep his.

[Snake-Aes]

Note - by this time Haley no longer had any money to free her dad. All her accumulated wealth prior to this had been spent buying weapons for the resistance.

Buying weapons? From who? They were on their own and isolated.

[Dark Faun]

From this duergar. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)

[Snake-Aes]

Ah, true. Nevermind then.


I don't know whether Haley would consider spending her random with them, but it's likely enough.

[rewinn]

Look at Hinjos cat, watching Roy and Celia making out. Isn't it perverted? But cute, so w/e
It's a perfect little detail.

In my experience, cats do that whenever they can: watch humans make out.

But creepy old dudes (who may be in incarnated in a cat) ALSO do that all the time.

I'm pretty sure Mr. Scruffy is "just a cat" but who knows?

[fruityjanitor]

Wasn't Haley there when V stated that eir forbidden school was transmutation?

Yeah, but she also saw V cast a bunch of teleport spells while under the soul splice. However, she was never told about the soul splice, that the soul splice was what gave her the ability to use teleport spells, or that the soul splice has ended. Yeah, she probably noticed V's appearance change to evil and then change back to normal, but V never told any of them what those appearance changes actually did.

[Freelance Henchman]

Why is Durkon a big expert on human pregnancy? :smallconfused:

[FlawedParadigm]

As to Mr. Scruffy; speaking as someone who's spent a fair amount of time in rooms containing both cats and females, I can attest to the fact that cats find most physical interactions between the two genders to be inevitably fascinating. One of my favourite cats even had a habit of joining in on any cuddle moments after the fact, which got me more "awwwwws" than I care to count. And it was almost always worth a laugh to add "And no, I didn't train him to do that."

Granted, your cattage may vary.

[FlawedParadigm]

Why is Durkon a big expert on human pregnancy? :smallconfused:

Cleric = healer = doctor, so far as D&D is concerned. Traditionally, barbers most often filled the doctor/surgeon role in mediaeval times, but then the clergy there couldn't re-attach severed limbs or remove diseases or poisons with a hastily-muttered prayer. So yeah.

Now, one could make an argument that the advice he's giving Kazumi is best left to the purview of midwives, but we're also talking about a short fuzzy man who's lived longer than most humans ever would, or (if I recall Durkon's age proper) could. Or it may be that in dwarven society, men are just as apt to assist in birth as women. But I imagine by either experience, age, wisdom, or profession, he's perfectly qualified to give advice on the matter, and probably the most qualified present, excepting possibly V, if V had given birth before or heard enough advice second-hand over the centuries. And V was gone for almost the entire pregnancy, either mentally or physically.

[sihnfahl]

Why is Durkon a big expert on human pregnancy? :smallconfused:
He's good at humanoid pregnancy.

And then consider his class...

[Dark Faun]

I believe his advice is universal.

[Blaznak]

The punch line was very funny.

I also liked that paralysis isn't good for the baby :smalltongue:

[FoE]

Also, Durkon's been wandering the human lands for nearly 20 years. I presume he's had a chance to read up on the subject.

[MReav]

Durkon's skill points need to go somewhere if they're not in K. Religion. Heal is probably as good a place to put them if you're going for flavour.

[Tundar]

Haley just rolled a 20 on a wisdom check, but damn it was fun!

And who do I have to kill for a clear-of-speech-bubles 3rd last panel? Great display of all the "good guys".

[Thoughtbot360]

As they say...

http://z.about.com/d/chemistry/1/0/-/e/fireice.jpg

What, you're casting Antipode from Chrono Trigger? I genuinely don't get it.

[factotum]

Now, one could make an argument that the advice he's giving Kazumi is best left to the purview of midwives, but we're also talking about a short fuzzy man who's lived longer than most humans ever would, or (if I recall Durkon's age proper) could.

Actually, Durkon is only supposed to be 53 as far as I recall. (He's listed as being 39 in the front of "No Cure for the Paladin Blues", but I think Rich has admitted that was a mistake--dwarves aren't technically adults until they hit 40, according to the SRD). They can certainly live a lot longer than humans can, though--up to 450 years, again according to the SRD.

[rxmd]

Actually, Durkon is only supposed to be 53 as far as I recall.

Yes, and he just got deflowered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0083.html).

So technically he's a Young Adult (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)? Should keep issues of Playdwarf and Big Beardz under his bed?

[Kupi]

What, you're casting Antipode from Chrono Trigger? I genuinely don't get it.

Internet meme: "Ice Burn". A cold (ice), injurious (burn) remark.

[Carnivorous M.]

In regards to the latest comic:

As awesome as Celia is, I just spewed soda all over my screen laughing. XD

[Sequinox]

Great, great comic. My interest in the OOTS has been reignited after becoming stagnant in the last two years. (Not that the comics were bad, but it just lost that feeling of grand adventure and exploration. Although the Resistance plotline was nice.)

[amanamana]

So technically he's a Young Adult (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)? Should keep issues of Playdwarf and Big Beardz under his beard?

Corrected for you!:smallwink:

[Optimystik]

Now, one could make an argument that the advice he's giving Kazumi is best left to the purview of midwives, but we're also talking about a short fuzzy man who's lived longer than most humans ever would, or (if I recall Durkon's age proper) could. Or it may be that in dwarven society, men are just as apt to assist in birth as women. But I imagine by either experience, age, wisdom, or profession, he's perfectly qualified to give advice on the matter, and probably the most qualified present, excepting possibly V, if V had given birth before or heard enough advice second-hand over the centuries. And V was gone for almost the entire pregnancy, either mentally or physically.

A far simpler explanation - he has ranks in Heal, the skill that covers mundane medical practices, which is a class skill for clerics. He's likely to be the person that bandaged Elan's arm. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) In addition, Heal is governed by Wisdom, making him exceptionally good at it.

[kinai]

Am I the only one that think that Hinjo is starting to twist his oath? :smallconfused: I don't think that he can say anything about his uncle anymore.

Kinai.

[Kish]

Am I the only one that think that Hinjo is starting to twist his oaths? :smallconfused:

He stated unambiguously that the Sapphire Guard's oath of noninterference with the other gates hinged on the existence of the sapphire in question. Thinking that that constitutes "twisting his oath" hinges on assuming he just made that up on the spot (and I'm not sure where you'd get the plural).


I don't think that he can say anything about his uncle anymore.

Kinai.
Should he wish to do so, he probably won't ask permission first.

[Renegade Paladin]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/emoticeburn6la9xu.gif

:smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

Am I the only one that think that Hinjo is starting to twist his oaths? :smallconfused:

It's not a twisted oath, but a fulfilled one. When you fulfill an oath, it no longer applies. (see also: Violet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html))

[Random832]

A far simpler explanation - he has ranks in Heal, the skill that covers mundane medical practices, which is a class skill for clerics. He's likely to be the person that bandaged Elan's arm. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) In addition, Heal is governed by Wisdom, making him exceptionally good at it.

Right, but this wasn't skill, it was knowledge. Knowledge (local), specifically [humanoids], which is cross-class.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Everyone's so focused on Haley and the Flying Twit that I've got to ask ....

.... did anyone else find Elan's comment about the eyepatch funny? :smallbiggrin: Or am I just strange?* :smallwink:



*Okay, we already know I'm strange. I guess the question should be "am I just being stranger than usual?" :smallbiggrin:

[kinai]

He stated unambiguously that the Sapphire Guard's oath of noninterference with the other gates hinged on the existence of the sapphire in question. Thinking that that constitutes "twisting his oath" hinges on assuming he just made that up on the spot

Right! My point! His uncle, that I can't remember his name, said that ALL the paladins "had sworn an oath to never interfere with those same games" (#290), he didn't say "unless that his gate was destroyed."


(and I'm not sure where you'd get the plural).

The plural is a mistyping. Sorry! :smallredface:


Should he wish to do so, he probably won't ask permission first.

I meant, he has the high moral ground no more. :smallwink:


It's not a twisted oath, but a fulfilled one. When you fulfill an oath, it no longer applies.

So your fulfill an oath when you breach it? I suppose that you mean that the oath is broken already, so they don't need to follow it anymore but: He is a paladin and I think that both oaths aren't related.

Kinai.

[Herald Alberich]

So your fulfill an oath when you breach it? I suppose that you mean that the oath is broken already, so they don't need to follow it anymore but: He is a paladin and I think that both oaths aren't related.

Kinai.

They didn't breach anything; it wasn't their fault the gate was destroyed.

Anyway, the original agreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) laid out by Serini was that each Scribble member would defend his own gate AND not worry about the others. They don't have a gate to defend anymore, so yeah, the oath no longer applies. The same thing happened when Soon and the other Ghost-Martyrs faded away (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) - without the gate, and thereby their oath to defend it, nothing tied them to the world anymore.

[Berserk Monk]

Loved Haley's comment. 'bout time someone said it in comic.

[dps]

Even saying that much risks exposing her lie (back when she was first hired on to the party in OtOoPCs) about being a member in good standing of the Thieves' Guild, if it ever got back to Roy after he was rezzed. Maybe it would have been better for her to take that risk, but declining to do so is very much in character for her.

So, your justification for her withholding important information is that to not have done so would risk exposing a past misdeed of hers? That really doesn't make her position more sympathetic.

[Warren Dew]

Why does everyone assume that Haley intentionally insulted Celia? They've had disagreements, but they've actually been on pretty good terms ever since Belkar's mark of justice got activated.

It seems to me just as reasonable to assume that Haley, not being a magic user, absentmindedly did as she thought Celia was telling her. Only after she said it did she realize what Celia really meant. I find that actually makes the joke more funny, because there's additional dissonance between the audience's belief in what Haley's saying and Haley's own lack of belief in it.

If the insult had been intentional, I'd think Haley's expression while delivering it would have been less neutral.

[Zanaril]

If the insult had been intentional, I'd think Haley's expression while delivering it would have been less neutral.

That's what a maxxed Bluff skill does for you.

[Lord Seth]

Great, great comic. My interest in the OOTS has been reignited after becoming stagnant in the last two years. (Not that the comics were bad, but it just lost that feeling of grand adventure and exploration. Although the Resistance plotline was nice.)Yeah, I'm glad the comic's finally been picking up. After Roy died the whole thing went into stagnation, but now things are getting better.

I'm glad Celia was told how stupid she was being, though. Let's just hope that after she leaves, she decides NOT to come back for a long time. ("long time" preferably being "longer than the comic itself so we'll never have to see her again")

[Siosilvar]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/emoticeburn6la9xu.gif

:smallbiggrin:

ICE NO BURN (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=29)

Sorry, I'll leave now.

[Bibliomancer]

Yeah, I'm glad the comic's finally been picking up. After Roy died the whole thing went into stagnation, but now things are getting better.

I'm glad Celia was told how stupid she was being, though. Let's just hope that after she leaves, she decides NOT to come back for a long time. ("long time" preferably being "longer than the comic itself so we'll never have to see her again")

Or if she gets summoned as additional cannon fodder for the Final Battle TM.

I'm sure we'll see her in the closing flash-forward, if nothing else.

[Aldrakan]

It seems to me just as reasonable to assume that Haley, not being a magic user, absentmindedly did as she thought Celia was telling her. Only after she said it did she realize what Celia really meant. I find that actually makes the joke more funny, because there's additional dissonance between the audience's belief in what Haley's saying and Haley's own lack of belief in it.

If the insult had been intentional, I'd think Haley's expression while delivering it would have been less neutral.

Well it's an unusual interpretation of "dismissal", that would be more brushing her off or ignoring her opinion in conversation. What she said would be much more accurately defined as "insult". And they haven't exactly been getting on well lately, so if she was just being flippant she probably wouldn't have said something that goes directly to their conflicts, such as Celia's ignorance of Haley's situation.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Sweet Sweet Blessed Update!!!!
I love Haley's attitude!
Do you think she honestly cares about her "faux paus"?

[Faramir]

You go girl!

Also loved the poignancy of V's regrets and, of course, the title :)

[X2]

Adequate!

*gives the Xartyve2 stamp of adequacy*

[holywhippet]

Hang on a second, that rude behaviour, the taking of what was asked completely literally. My god, Haley has been possessed by Eugene.

[Morquard]

I was wondering this though, and maybe thats why I don't fully get the Celia joke.
Does "dismiss" mean "insult" as well? I only know it in the "Ok we're done, you can go now" kind of sense.

[Optimystik]

I was wondering this though, and maybe thats why I don't fully get the Celia joke.
Does "dismiss" mean "insult" as well? I only know it in the "Ok we're done, you can go now" kind of sense.

Yes, as in the word "dismissive" - scornful, disdainful.

[Terminalchaos]

I for one hope Celia comes back really soon. She isn't stupid at all (actually seems to be smarter than Haley if a bit naive), just a bit out of place when dealing with the gritty reality of the prime material plane. I like her character and hope she makes many more appearances soon.

I'm now wondering what O-chul would do if he found out about V's deal. I could see him trying to help V deal with the consequences even if the rest castigated V.

[Scarlet Knight]

The punch line was very funny.

I also liked that paralysis isn't good for the baby :smalltongue:

:durkon: "Aye, an' ye reeelly wanna' avoid 'level draina's or ya' pregnancy'l take foreva' ".
:smallwink:

[Aris Katsaris]

Why does everyone assume that Haley intentionally insulted Celia? They've had disagreements, but they've actually been on pretty good terms ever since Belkar's mark of justice got activated.

And they stopped being on good terms after the details of the contract Celia made were revealed to Haley.


It seems to me just as reasonable to assume that Haley, not being a magic user, absentmindedly did as she thought Celia was telling her.

"Since you were the one who broke my summoning talisman, I need you to insult me" doesn't make much sense. I would believe it of Elan -- but for Haley to "misunderstand" it in this way, can only happen if intentional.

[Morty]

Yeah, I'm glad the comic's finally been picking up. After Roy died the whole thing went into stagnation, but now things are getting better.

Nope. If the Roy hadn't died the comic would become stagnant, because it'd be the same plots all over again. If now comic returns to the style of the old arcs - though I find it not very probable - it'll be something new rather than "yawn, it's the same jokes and plot twists again".

[rangermania]

Altough this a nice page of comic. With fine arts and everything. I'm a bit bored about this low tempo. I need action and also I'm worried about not seeing O-Chul in action for sometime...:smalleek:

[LuisDantas]

I feel sorry for Celia, and disappointed by Haley. She ought to know better than to hurt Celia like that.

I am beginning to wonder about Haley, really...

[Kish]

I doubt it hurt Celia. In the unlikely event that she didn't already know exactly what Haley thinks about her, I still doubt she cares. Of course, she's taken aback to be insulted to her face; most people would be.

[DBear]

Ok, everyone's going on about Haley dissing Celia, but I liked Haley and Lien discussing their short hairstyles earlier in the comic. :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

Nope. If the Roy hadn't died the comic would become stagnant, because it'd be the same plots all over again. If now comic returns to the style of the old arcs - though I find it not very probable - it'll be something new rather than "yawn, it's the same jokes and plot twists again".

So we have to suffer the second-rate so we will appreciate the first-rate?

If you don't mind, I'll take my chances with having first-rate all the time.

[FoE]

Roy's death — and indeed, the takeover of Azure City — was important to this comic. It showed that the good guys are NOT destined to defeat Xykon and Redcloak simply by the virtue of being protagonists. If the bad guys can't win, then victory over them is meaningless.

And Roy's resurrection couldn't come easily. There had to be a cost, a struggle to get to this point. Otherwise, death in the comic is essentially meaningless, which may work well in a role-playing game but not so much in a story.

A lot of things happened during this arc that will have ramifications for the future, like V's deal with the IFCC, the removal of Belkar's Mark of Justice, the MitD's interactions with O'Chul, Elan's newfound maturity and the loss of Redcloak's eye (I suspect Redcloak is going to find his interactions with Xykon a little strained in the future).

And we had some really great moments and some fantastic jokes, like Therkla's sad ending and Belkar's slaying of the evil gnome menace. What was not to like? :smallbiggrin:

[Optimystik]

What was not to like? :smallbiggrin:

Celia :smalltongue:

I agree it was well worth it though, both to see Rich's depiction of the afterlife and watch Eugene get kicked to the celestial curb.

[FoE]

Celia :smalltongue:.

Well, yes, but Rich clearly meant for her to be an annoying ditz. That's something most of the Celia fans seem to ignore.

[Dark Faun]

So Roy went from lusting after homicidal maniacs to lusting after annoying twits? Well, I guess it was an improvement... :smallwink:

[Bedinsis]

I found it cute how all the couples were holding hands. And I like how Vaarsuvius appears to show some remorse.

[Aris Katsaris]

People complaining about "stagnation" in the time of the split plarty... have absolutely no idea what stagnation means.

Exploration and adventure? The comic "explored" the frikking *afterlife*. We got to see people from Haley's past, and V's family, and Roy's family, and even Belkar got character development. We got to see MitD exhibit new powers, we got to see Elan gain some wisdom.

What the hell is this "stagnation" you people are talking about? The way I saw it we kept seeing new stuff at a faster pace than ever before.

Stagnation? What the hell, people. You may not have liked the arc, and that's certainly your prerogative, but "stagnation" is the one thing you can't accuse it of.

[Laketh Stadt]

Sometimes characters speak for themselves, sometimes for the author. Sometimes its for countless thousands of others. :)

[Demiurge]

I predict Celia's death, if only because it's been stated that she can't be resurrected, being an outsider, thus making it more tragic. For Roy, not the readers.

[spargel]

Roy's death — and indeed, the takeover of Azure City — was important to this comic. It showed that the good guys are NOT destined to defeat Xykon and Redcloak simply by the virtue of being protagonists. If the bad guys can't win, then victory over them is meaningless.


No, not really. Most stories have some of the protagonists dying or losing a few battles, and those protagonists usually don't come back to life either.

And this webcomic is littered with Deus Ex Machinas to keep the protagonists from permanently dying, and keeping the antagonists alive long enough.

[BillyJimBoBob]

The ponytail stays!:smallbiggrin:The metaphysical laws governing the Conservation of Ponytails made this impossible to be otherwise.

[Poil]

Since when do pony tails get particularly sweaty? Speaking from experience I can safely say that during extended times of strong sun long hair is a godsend against getting your neck burned to a crisp. You should probably wear a hat in the desert regardless though.

[reignofevil]

No, not really. Most stories have some of the protagonists dying or losing a few battles, and those protagonists usually don't come back to life either.

And this webcomic is littered with Deus Ex Machinas to keep the protagonists from permanently dying, and keeping the antagonists alive long enough.

I'm not sure if you understand that that is how a world based on dungeons and dragons would work.

[FoE]

Aren't you gone, Spargel? I thought you said you had given up on Oots and were done with it. Or am I thinking of someone else?

In any case, I need you to provide an example of such a Deus ex Machina taking place. Otherwise, my position is "You don't know what you're talking about."

[Tobimaro]

Ouch. Even I felt the sting of Haley's barb.

Great line, Giant! :smallcool:

[spargel]

Aren't you gone, Spargel? I thought you said you had given up on Oots and were done with it. Or am I thinking of someone else?

In any case, I need you to provide an example of such a Deus ex Machina taking place. Otherwise, my position is "You don't know what you're talking about."

You're probably thinking of JeptCloak.

Deus Ex Machina Moment: Roy tossing Xykon into portal.

[Smiling Knight]

But wasn't the Gate previously established as being able to zap non-Good aligned entities for large amounts of damage?

And while it may not be possible in actual D&D mechanics, Story > Rules.

[Aldrakan]

Deus Ex Machina Moment: Roy tossing Xykon into portal.

Actually it was previously established that there's a gate in that room that kills anyone who tries to go through it.

It's not much of a deus ex machina to go from "deadly doorway" to "enemy goes in deadly doorway".
Especially given that earlier in the fight Xykon had implied to the heroes that the gate was fragile or unstable in some way.

Edit: Ninjaed.

[FoE]

Deus Ex Machina Moment: Roy tossing Xykon into portal.

That's not really an example because a Deus Ex Machina implies a solution to a problem that had never been introduced in the story. Had Odin appeared in the comic and smited Xykon, that would be a Deus Ex Machina. But the ability of the Gate to destroy Xykon had been foreshadowed, since the whole point of allowing the party into the throne room had been so they could release the seals on the Gate; Xykon himself couldn't touch it.

It may be a contrivance, but it's not a Deus Ex Machina.

[Lord Seth]

Nope. If the Roy hadn't died the comic would become stagnant, because it'd be the same plots all over again. If now comic returns to the style of the old arcs - though I find it not very probable - it'll be something new rather than "yawn, it's the same jokes and plot twists again".When I said the comic had stagnated after Roy's death, I didn't mean that it was the mere fact he died that he died that caused it. It was the fact that the plot went way, way, WAY too slowly afterwards, and is finally picking up some speed. Honestly, this was a place where an editor could've really helped, to fix up the pacing.

I had no problem with the fact Roy died. I did, however, have a problem with how comic got so blasted boring and slow afterwards.

[spargel]

Deus Ex Machinas:

Durkon saving party in bandit camp.
Miko taking on the entire order and winning (Twice).
Zombie Dragon Head falling on Deathknight.
Miko unintentionally saving Xykon.
The Ancient Black Dragon.
The Soul Splice.
O-Chul's Critical Hit.
MITD teleportation.


That's not really an example because a Deus Ex Machina implies a solution to a problem that had never been introduced in the story. Had Odin appeared in the comic and smited Xykon, that would be a Deus Ex Machina. But the ability of the Gate to destroy Xykon had been foreshadowed, since the whole point of allowing the party into the throne room had been so they could release the seals on the Gate; Xykon himself couldn't touch it.

It may be a contrivance, but it's not a Deus Ex Machina.

It still took a large amount of luck for that to actually work. Did Roy even know that the Gate would destroy Xykon?

[Optimystik]

Deus Ex Machinas:

Durkon saving party in bandit camp.
Miko taking on the entire order and winning (Twice).
Zombie Dragon Head falling on Deathknight.
Miko unintentionally saving Xykon.
The Ancient Black Dragon.
The Soul Splice.
O-Chul's Critical Hit.
MITD teleportation.

False Deus Exes bolded.

The bandits are revealed to be quite foolish, and thus don't gag casters when they tie them up. While inability to use somatic components hampered Vaarsuvius, it naturally did nothing to Durkon. Because their behavior is consistent, this is not a Deus Ex.

Miko round 2 was explained blow by blow by Rich, and it made perfect sense. (I don't have all his posts bookmarked, so maybe someone else could find it.) The party would have won with Durkon's assistance, but he stayed out of both fights. Thus the second victory was not a Deus Ex. The first was due to Thor's interference, which I suppose WAS a Deus Ex, and a literal one at that.

Miko's psychosis existed long before the situation in the throne room. Her actions are consistent with her mindset; not a Deus Ex.

The ABD is foreshadowed as far back as 572, over 50 strips before she actually appears. She is thus not a Deus Ex.

The splice was foreshadowed all the way back at V's prophecy; no way can that be a Deus Ex.

O-Chul not getting a critical there wouldn't have really impacted the story in any way. Even landing normal hits, he still would have successfully tripped and disarmed Redcloak, taking him out of the fight in short order. All the critical led to was Redcloak's "idiot tax," and Xykon was mad enough that he might have done something similar himself. Because the story stays the same regardless, this is not a Deus Ex.

Unbolded claims, I agree with you on, but that doesn't make them bad writing.


It still took a large amount of luck for that to actually work. Did Roy even know that the Gate would destroy Xykon?

Roy's knowledge is irrelevant; he was far too angry at that point to think clearly, so we can't assume he planned that attack. The important thing is that Xykon knew how dangerous it was.

[berrew]

Unbolded claims, I agree with you on, but that doesn't make them bad writing.
In fact, the latter doesn't really count. It was a deliberate Deus Ex As Gag moment - the whole action line was primarily there as a setup for the joke. The former was really the running gag often brought up by the author - the use of DM "fudges" to nudge the party along a particular road. The best (or at least, most blatant) example is actually not the Miko scene, but the one in #556 where elan refuses to leave the net left by the orcs, and thus avoids injury.

[spargel]

False Deus Exes bolded.

I consider things that have a very low chance of happening, but a very large effect on the plot, Deus Exes. It takes a lot more than a little foreshadowing to prevent them from being Deus Exes.



The bandits are revealed to be quite foolish, and thus don't gag casters when they tie them up. While inability to use somatic components hampered Vaarsuvius, it naturally did nothing to Durkon. Because their behavior is consistent, this is not a Deus Ex.


Durkon somehow managed to save the entire party from the bandits accidentally because he was trying to save the bandits from trees. And the tree fell in the exact way he needed it to.



Miko round 2 was explained blow by blow by Rich, and it made perfect sense. (I don't have all his posts bookmarked, so maybe someone else could find it.) The party would have won with Durkon's assistance, but he stayed out of both fights. Thus the second victory was not a Deus Ex. The first was due to Thor's interference, which I suppose WAS a Deus Ex, and a literal one at that.


I'll wait till someone posts it to see whether or not it required ridiculous luck.



Miko's psychosis existed long before the situation in the throne room. Her actions are consistent with her mindset; not a Deus Ex.


Except the timing of everything was horrible. Soon only needed a little more time to kill Xykon and Redcloak.



The ABD is foreshadowed as far back as 572, over 50 strips before she actually appears. She is thus not a Deus Ex.



It was barely foreshadowed (He doesn't give any information at all about the client), the timing of everything was pretty horrible (The ABD didn't come back home until recently), and the fact that the ABD didn't even kill V (Classic villain mistake).



The splice was foreshadowed all the way back at V's prophecy; no way can that be a Deus Ex.


The splice only happened because the ABD chose to attack while Qarr was around (V wasting 4 disintegrates on Qarr and failing to kill him wasn't really that likely), and Qarr deciding to help V wasn't really that likely either. The ABD could have also waited until after V killed Qarr. And the fact that the fiends plans somehow involved giving V a huge amount of power.



O-Chul not getting a critical there wouldn't have really impacted the story in any way. Even landing normal hits, he still would have successfully tripped and disarmed Redcloak, taking him out of the fight in short order. All the critical led to was Redcloak's "idiot tax," and Xykon was mad enough that he might have done something similar himself. Because the story stays the same regardless, this is not a Deus Ex.


Ok, I won't count this as a Deus Ex then.



Unbolded claims, I agree with you on, but that doesn't make them bad writing.

I never said having some Deus Ex Machinas were bad writing. I don't consider having them in OOTS a bad thing either, since it doesn't really have a very serious story. But I'm slightly annoyed at characters suddenly acting like idiots.


Roy's knowledge is irrelevant; he was far too angry at that point to think clearly, so we can't assume he planned that attack. The important thing is that Xykon knew how dangerous it was.

If Roy didn't know anything about the gate destroying Xykon, he could have easily did numerous other things with Xykon after grabbing him. And Xykon giving Roy the chance to do that was pretty stupid. Xykon was acting like a pretty genre savvy villain, so he should be trying to avoid classic villain mistakes.