Wizards unstoppable?

[Stompy]

<3 Tome of Battle.

Seconded. Makes melee FUN.

Also, to anyone who doesn't comprehend the power of the wizard, watch Jaya Ballard (a wizard) take down a hydra in 2 rounds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095&page=15) (PS: This wizard banned conjuration and transmutation, arguably the best magic schools in the game.)

[Kilremgor]

For somewhat 'nerfing' Wizards without affecting them directly and making them more fair, I've thought about a following homebrewn concept:

Ring of Equal Time
CL 24, 300000 gp.
Based on epic usage of Seed: Transport.

This ring produces a quiet ticking sound every second, for millenniums and without a slightest error - no matter what happens. The powerful enchantment on the ring forces the wearer and all the creatures in 120ft range to always exist on the same stream of time, negating any magical, exceptional or supernatural effect that can cause certain creature to act faster or slower than all the others; effects like Time Stop, Slow, Haste and similar do no work. Effects that affect initiative order do not work as well. This enchantment can only be negated by epic magic.

Advantages include eliminating all the 'I celerity into Time Stop' "fun", while not limiting the attack/defense/control options and applying the same restrictions to the wearer. This way, the wearer and his allies are at least likely to get few turns instead of dying without single action taken.

Seems good to be equipped by all the high-level BBEGs. Can be looted off their corpses, if players desire to have this ring for some reason.

[quick_comment]

For somewhat 'nerfing' Wizards without affecting them directly and making them more fair, I've thought about a following homebrewn concept:

Ring of Equal Time
CL 24, 300000 gp.
Based on epic usage of Seed: Transport.

This ring produces a quiet ticking sound every second, for millenniums and without a slightest error - no matter what happens. The powerful enchantment on the ring forces the wearer and all the creatures in 120ft range to always exist on the same stream of time, negating any magical, exceptional or supernatural effect that can cause certain creature to act faster or slower than all the others; effects like Time Stop, Slow, Haste and similar do no work. Effects that affect initiative order do not work as well. This enchantment can only be negated by epic magic.

Advantages include eliminating all the 'I celerity into Time Stop' "fun", while not limiting the attack/defense/control options and applying the same restrictions to the wearer. This way, the wearer and his allies are at least likely to get few turns instead of dying without single action taken.

Seems good to be equipped by all the high-level BBEGs. Can be looted off their corpses, if players desire to have this ring for some reason.

Still doesnt work.

It just goes like this.

I cast celerity, cast dimension door, moving over that way, and speak the wood doodlyfluffer, which activates my contingent time stop.

[Gaiyamato]

Seconded. Makes melee FUN.

Also, to anyone who doesn't comprehend the power of the wizard, watch Jaya Ballard (a wizard) take down a hydra in 2 rounds. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095&page=15) (PS: This wizard banned conjuration and transmutation, arguably the best magic schools in the game.)

Aside from the fact that there is no actual roleplaying going on there (lol.) looking at that Wizard! He is the least flexible Wizard you could get (still a fun build to play). There was so much ooc knowledge and meta gaming going on it is ludicrous and the monster they faced was so far under recommended CR given the total party and the level of optimisation as to be stupid, even without the Wizard that hydra was dead in a few rounds anyway (making the Wizard's achievement rather pointless actually). Also note that Jaya failed his will save, yet suffered no consequences for it all. The DM didn't even make any attempt at initiative or toward planning the encounter. It was, "Here is a Hydra, please kill it". Done. Awesome...

His mage is a pure combat monkey with no flexibility at all, not a bad thing, but a very poor example of the power of Wizards in the context of this thread.
This is not really a problem per se, but it under lines the real issue with Wizards. Sure there is this list of spells that if you happen to have each and every one known and memorised you can handle any situation. But to do that you would only have one of each, at best, memorised giving you absolutely no staying power at all.
OR you memorise multiples of the good spells you use the most and have some good staying power, but no ability in wide variety of situations (this is what most wizards do and what any good wizard player should do, this is also what PH has done, allowing him to consistently contribute to the party). Do this and nearly all of the arguments for the all -powerful Wizard fall down. Except Celerity. But that spell is ridiculous and should be banned. So should a ring of sustenance as it breaks the world economy.
(going back to my list before the only real attempt to counter it fails because in order to prove any of his points he has to ignore several of his other points, thus disproving himself, hence why I'm not even going to bother quoting and responding to it. lol.)

Looking around at some of the games the "Wizards are uber powerful" people like PH play. They play in games which are nothing more than dungeon crawls or completely predictable situations. Go ahead, look at the profiles of these people and go over the games they have played on here alone, read the threads where they posted past experiences. Almost all of them is a monty haul to some degree. wow.. yeah, real hard.
I'm not saying these people are bad players or DMs, and often a deliberate monty haul now and then can be fun with a good enough group and enough humour involved, but these games are stupidly bad examples of environments for balanced Wizards, or really anything. lol.
All casters will go berserk.

That said, how useful would Jaya be against a bunch of low level skeletons with immunity to electricity for example? CR 1-2 Skeletons. It would take only about half a dozen to quickly kill Jaya if he was on his own given all of his spells are negative levels, negative energy or electricity except for that one magic missile he has memorised. He may kill 1 with a spell (if he does not roll really low), but then he would have to bash his way past the rest. Oh I'm sorry mister 8 STR you just died. lol.
How useful would Jaya be if he found himself in a roof-top chase scene? How useful would he be if imprisoned? How useful is he in a social intrigue situation? That's right, completely useless (except maybe for the odd knowledge check). The fighter and rogue would outshine him in all of those situations (depending on the fighter.. :P).

This translates up to high levels as well. If you combine this with restricting access to rarer spells and resources (Wizards actually have a high resource requirement of played correctly, but given that everyone seems to ignore component costs and focuses 100% on the combat ability of Wizards then obviously they have virtually no income requirements and can blow everything on magic items and scrolls. :P) the Wizard finds that he focuses more and more on a specific role.

By epic level he is so focused that there is no way that he will have all of the spells people keep listing (though he can have quite a few of them) and even if he knows them he wont have them all memorised all the time.

The only reason Jaya is overly useful consistently in combat even is because he has a great big list of magic items. The DM has treated 'Magic items as Candy' and let him spend his entire gold supply on them, which is stupidly stupid when you think about it: Where does the wizard live? (he needs somewhere to store his library etc.) What did he eat all those years he spent getting to level 12 (or at least to his ring)? Why didn't he conduct any research or training? What about the cost of all those material components he has used over the years?
Seems to have given out bucket loads of treasure too.

But even with this, as pointed out above, Jaya is virtually useless outside combat situations, he knows very few spells and could not even function in a handful of combat situations. If he was hit with any sort of darkness spell and failed a dispel magic check he is suddenly in trouble given he has failed to memorise light for the current day as yet another example, or even if he is forced to use his three dispels (2 normal dispel magic and one greater dispel magic) and is THEN hit with darkness he is in trouble with absolutely no way out of it.

Though this is always the case for all builds, but a level 1 Drow Rogue could easily kill Jaya with enough patience, planning and luck, and not even much of that if Jaya was on his own.

But yeah, sighting a single event where the Wizard actually kicked ass in a munchkin monty haul as an example of Wizard supremacy is hardly a good argument and is not surprising in the least.

Mind you that Wizard build works fine because Wizards are very powerful. Still my favourite class and easily the most powerful class unless played completely stupidly or placed in situations where other classes will always out perform.

I have been playing the Magic User since D&D 1.0 and have never found him to be so broken as claimed in any edition (except maybe 3.0) unless in the midst of a lame monty haul.

I think those of you who claim otherwise are spending far to much time on mechanics and are not actually roleplaying. Which is funny given it is a roleplaying game.

But I do still prefer 2.0 for balance, though 4.0 is not too badly balanced for magic, it completely lacks roleplaying and is just a munchkin-mechanics-fest. 2.5 precisely is the best balance I've been able to find in all of the D&D games.
But 3.5 works fine with a nicely mixed party unless the DM is useless.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Aside from the fact that there is no actual roleplaying going on there (lol.) looking at that Wizard! He is the least flexible Wizard you could get (still a fun build to play). There was so much ooc knowledge and meta gaming going on it is ludicrous and the monster they faced was so far under recommended CR given the total party and the level of optimisation as to be stupid, even without the Wizard that hydra was dead in a few rounds anyway (making the Wizard's achievement rather pointless actually). Also note that Jaya failed his will save, yet suffered no consequences for it all. The DM didn't even make any attempt at initiative or toward planning the encounter. It was, "Here is a Hydra, please kill it". Done. Awesome...

Saph, care to respond?

[Kilremgor]

Still doesnt work.

It just goes like this.

I cast celerity, cast dimension door, moving over that way, and speak the wood doodlyfluffer, which activates my contingent time stop.

Celerity can be easily considered time-affecting and not epic magic, so is technically suppressed by ring's effect. So does any kind of Time Stop if caster gets into 120ft-range of the wearer. Mechanically, ring does not dispel/suppress all those effects in any way, it just uses temporal usage of Seed: Transport to always have all the subjects in 120ft radius in the same time stream (acting with the same, normal speed). And getting a standard action 'moved from next turn to present one' (technically) using magic means is clearly affecting the normal flow of time. Dazed aftereffect will be suppressed as well.

Why, IMO, it is good as homebrew equipment for BBEG? When comparing with non-homebrew items that project persistent AMF, this one is more interesting: it does not turn any player into useless one. It does not really buff BBEG. It's not removing any class features.

All it does is break the usual 'IDontCareForInitRollICastCelerityAndWin' sequence. It can be defeated, either by going out of 120ft range and using the Celerity/Timestop combos there, or just having straight combat. Also, if BBEG or party has started the combat in ring range, there is non-zero chance that BBEG will get a turn before wizard player does (given that csating Celerity right away won't work, or any effect that will alter natural initiative order). And then it's good idea for BBEG to burn as much contingencies as he can while ring suppresses Celerity and Time Stop effects.

[quick_comment]

Celerity can be easily considered time-affecting and not epic magic, so is technically suppressed by ring's effect. So does any kind of Time Stop if caster gets into 120ft-range of the wearer. Mechanically, ring does not dispel/suppress all those effects in any way, it just uses temporal usage of Seed: Transport to always have all the subjects in 120ft radius in the same time stream (acting with the same, normal speed). And getting a standard action 'moved from next turn to present one' (technically) using magic means is clearly affecting the normal flow of time. Dazed aftereffect will be suppressed as well.

Why, IMO, it is good as homebrew equipment for BBEG? When comparing with non-homebrew items that project persistent AMF, this one is more interesting: it does not turn any player into useless one. It does not really buff BBEG. It's not removing any class features.

All it does is break the usual 'IDontCareForInitRollICastCelerityAndWin' sequence. It can be defeated, either by going out of 120ft range and using the Celerity/Timestop combos there, or just having straight combat. Also, if BBEG or party has started the combat in ring range, there is non-zero chance that BBEG will get a turn before wizard player does (given that csating Celerity right away won't work, or any effect that will alter natural initiative order). And then it's good idea for BBEG to burn as much contingencies as he can while ring suppresses Celerity and Time Stop effects.

There is a much easier way.

DM: Celerity is banned.

[HamHam]

Sure there is this list of spells that if you happen to have each and every one known and memorised you can handle any situation. But to do that you would only have one of each, at best, memorised giving you absolutely no staying power at all.
OR you memorise multiples of the good spells you use the most and have some good staying power, but no ability in wide variety of situations (this is what most wizards do and what any good wizard player should do, this is also what PH has done, allowing him to consistently contribute to the party). Do this and nearly all of the arguments for the all -powerful Wizard fall down.

This seems like it would be the case, but initial impressions are misleading.

a) The most powerful Wizard spells have built in versatility, ie Polymorph. Do you want to turn yourself (or better yet a party member with relevant class abilities) into a grapple monkey? A Trip monkey? Something that gets over a half dozen attacks per round? Something that is immune to sneak attack? 90% of encounters can be won simply by picking the right thing to polymorph into. Now, polymorph is pretty broken, however there are other spells which are almost as good. Summon Monster gives you lots of choices that can handle different situations in various ways. Walls can reshape the battlefield in any number of ways.

b) Some spells are almost always relevant. Anything that does Force damage, while sub-optimal in the grand scheme of things, will at least do something because practically nothing is immune to it. Bestow Curse isn't stopped by any of the usual necromancy resistances (negative energy, energy drain, death, etc) AFAIK.

c) Specialized blasters should have ways of changing their damage into other things or they are not very good blasters, in all honesty.


The only reason Jaya is overly useful consistently in combat even is because he has a great big list of magic items. The DM has treated 'Magic items as Candy' and let him spend his entire gold supply on them, which is stupidly stupid when you think about it: Where does the wizard live? (he needs somewhere to store his library etc.) What did he eat all those years he spent getting to level 12 (or at least to his ring)? Why didn't he conduct any research or training? What about the cost of all those material components he has used over the years?

Someone doesn't understand Wealth By Level. Maintenance costs are assumed. That's why actual treasure gain (according to the charts) during a level is higher than the difference in WBL between the lower and higher level. Some of it is assumed to be wasted on consumables.

The WBL guidelines are assumed to be true by RAW. If you don't follow them, it changes the balance of the game. Usually in favor of casters because they are the least dependent on their items.


But 3.5 works fine with a nicely mixed party unless the DM is useless.

Not really. The greater the disparity between the highest and lowest tiers in the party, the more noticeable the problem will be.

[Milskidasith]

Personally, I'd see banning time effecting spells as a better use of your time than making an item for it, though the item at least makes a bit more sense.

Just give it a range long enough for you to actually stop somebody from time stopping and doing something else from out of range.

[quick_comment]

c) Specialized blasters should have ways of changing their damage into other things or they are not very good blasters, in all honesty.


This is one of the reasons I really, really, prefer sorcerer to wizard for blasting. Take searing spell, blasting spell of choice, done. Apply searing as needed.

Or you just take a level of archmage.

[Milskidasith]

-snip-

He's a wizard in a game that is specifically designed for dungeon crawling optimization at level 13 with 100% WBL. He's not going to bother with any of the party face stuff; that is just stuff for killing things.

While this doesn't address nearly all of your complaints about his technique, it does make a bunch of your "he's not prepared for something that isn't a dungeon crawl" arguments moot.

[Saph]

Aside from the fact that there is no actual roleplaying going on there (lol.) looking at that Wizard! He is the least flexible Wizard you could get (still a fun build to play). There was so much ooc knowledge and meta gaming going on it is ludicrous and the monster they faced was so far under recommended CR given the total party and the level of optimisation as to be stupid, even without the Wizard that hydra was dead in a few rounds anyway (making the Wizard's achievement rather pointless actually). Also note that Jaya failed his will save, yet suffered no consequences for it all. The DM didn't even make any attempt at initiative or toward planning the encounter. It was, "Here is a Hydra, please kill it". Done. Awesome...

Well, I happen to be the DM in question, so . . .

Firstly, the wizard's a she. If you're so concerned about roleplaying, you might as well at least get the character's gender right.

Second, hydras have an Int of 2. This puts a practical cap on the amount of tactical skill they can display. The hydra benefited from terrain and environment, and had some other things supporting it. That was as far as I was willing to go.

Thirdly, Jaya (Pharaoh's character) got quite lucky in that fight, first winning initiative, then firing and hitting with two Enervations, both of which she rolled max damage on. The chances of her pulling that off were very low. I don't typically fudge rolls, so if the PCs make some godlike rolls and one-rounds something that was supposed to be a challenge, well, that's too bad for the monsters.

Finally, on a slightly different note, to some of the others . . . It's true that Jaya's proven to be an effective character, and in the two fights we've had so far she's contributed as much or more as any of the others. (Focusing on blasting damage works better than you think when you're fighting swarms every battle.) However, in those same two fights, she's also been nauseated, shot, scratched, paralysed, half-drowned, and dropped down a pit. It hasn't exactly been a free ride. :)

- Saph

[Zeful]

There is a much easier way.

DM: Celerity is banned.

Celerity? Is that some kind of vegetable or something? What does a vegetable have to do with a discussion on Wizards? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Discontinuity)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Thirdly, Jaya (Pharaoh's character) got quite lucky in that fight, first winning initiative, then firing and hitting with two Enervations, both of which she rolled max damage on. The chances of her pulling that off were very low. I don't typically fudge rolls, so if the PCs make some godlike rolls and one-rounds something that was supposed to be a challenge, well, that's too bad for the monsters.

The average amount of negative levels the hydra should have taken is between 5 and 6, leaning towards 6. Not enough to kill it, but enough to let the others kill it without breaking too much of a threat.

Or for a Scorching Ray to finish it off.

[Frosty]

Celerity? Is that some kind of vegetable or something? What does a vegetable have to do with a discussion on Wizards? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Discontinuity)

If you're trying to pull off a joke, this one didn't work too well because Celerity is not close enough to Celery imho.

[Samb]

I would say a mildly optimized wizard would be near unstoppable. A full on min/maxer is unkillable.

That being said I have played with wizards that do nothing but blast. Then when the 6th encounter of the comes along they soak up XP because they forgot to make scrolls beforehand...... Just because you picked a wizard wouldn't make you god, lord knows a lot of people just play wizard because they like to blow **** up, not to break the game.

that being said they can very easily break the game. And to answer the OP: Yes most of the time

[Milskidasith]

Samb, you might want to reverse that; a mildly optimized one should be unkillable, while a min-maxer should be completely unstoppable. Being unstoppable is a lot better than being unkillable; any wizard can be unkillable with a well worded contingent teleport.

[PId6]

Why bother using wizard to blast? Sorcerer is much more fitting for that, though the lack of bonus metamagic feats does hurt.

And yeah, I agree about the Contingent Teleport. If you read the entry under Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), there's actually nothing limiting your conditions besides the fact that they must be clear, so by RAW, Contingency is omniscient. If you really want to make your DM hit you, you can even use Contingency for divination effects that bypass Mind Blank, as long as you word it properly.

[Myrmex]

Why bother using wizard to blast? Sorcerer is much more fitting for that, though the lack of bonus metamagic feats does hurt.

Because with all sources and a focused specialist, you get just as many spells/day, more feats, faster spell progression, better metamagic, and more versatility.

[PId6]

Because with all sources and a focused specialist, you get just as many spells/day, more feats, faster spell progression, better metamagic, and more versatility.
Yeah, but sorcerers have more awesome!

[Salvonus]

Yeah, but psions have more awesome!

:smallwink:

[Kaiyanwang]

To people that talk about contingent teleport, a question (not to say that wiz is not powerful, see my above post).

How often your DM targets the party with dispel (or worse*)?



* I mean, Mage Disjunction or That Dispel Spells that Deals Damage Basing On Buffs Active

[Myrmex]

To people that talk about contingent teleport, a question (not to say that wiz is not powerful, see my above post).

How often your DM targets the party with dispel (or worse*)?



* I mean, Mage Disjunction or That Dispel Spells that Deals Damage Basing On Buffs Active

Frequently enough to be a big, frakkin chore.

[PId6]

To people that talk about contingent teleport, a question (not to say that wiz is not powerful, see my above post).

How often your DM targets the party with dispel (or worse*)?
The last time I played a caster, not often enough.

But still, word one of your Contingencies as "If a Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic is cast in which I am the target or a Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic is cast in which I am within the targeted area." Not perfect, but it'll stop a large number of such attacks. You can even exclude regular Dispel Magic and add in Disjunction once you're high enough level.

[mostlyharmful]

Aside from the fact that there is no actual roleplaying going on there (lol.)

:smallconfused: Given this was initially intended as a gamist investigation into the monks capability to fill a party role it seems to me there's been quite a bit of rp but hey, whatever, I'm having fun sticking to my role.


looking at that Wizard! He is the least flexible Wizard you could get (still a fun build to play).

And yet still so flexible. One of our major points.


There was so much ooc knowledge and meta gaming going on it is ludicrous

Such as? An example please? In that particular encounter what precisely was metagamed? My character at least very nearly died on a number of rolls because I didn't metagame after the death of the hydra and landed instead. What are you talking about?:smallconfused:


and the monster they faced was so far under recommended CR

The monster that was one part of an encounter that killed one of us and nearly killed two more? Or if you prefer you can look at the encounter before where two of us died and the others took heavy damage and just about squeeked by. And again, what are you talking about?


given the total party and the level of optimisation as to be stupid,

Here is the rogue's sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=137099). please point out the optimization other than not picking dud feats or items. The other players are a Wizard that's banned Conj and Trans, a Druid who so far hasn't wildshaped and a Monk.


even without the Wizard that hydra was dead in a few rounds anyway (making the Wizard's achievement rather pointless actually).

Came pretty close to offing the Monk, I'd say it'd have chomped him before we got it down and if we hadn't have taken it down so fast we would have been fighting it while drowning from the swarms. Sometimes people roll well, deal with it.


Also note that Jaya failed his will save, yet suffered no consequences for it all.

Don't know about that. Don't know what the will save was for. Saph?


The DM didn't even make any attempt at initiative or toward planning the encounter. It was, "Here is a Hydra, please kill it". Done. Awesome...

We rolled initiative. Saph interpreted our actions in sequence. It makes Pbp a lot faster. read Saphs descriptions of what happened again in light of the previous pages where we rolled it.


His mage is a pure combat monkey with no flexibility at all, not a bad thing, but a very poor example of the power of Wizards in the context of this thread.

Seems pretty flexible to me. Divination, Echantment, Illusion, Necromancy, Abjuration and Evocation. Yep, plenty of flexibility there.


This is not really a problem per se, but it under lines the real issue with Wizards. Sure there is this list of spells that if you happen to have each and every one known and memorised you can handle any situation. But to do that you would only have one of each, at best, memorised giving you absolutely no staying power at all.

sure you do, you just don't have the same spell to reapply. So use your spells wisely and tactically and try to think outside the box of what is useful.


This translates up to high levels as well. If you combine this with restricting access to rarer spells and resources (Wizards actually have a high resource requirement of played correctly, but given that everyone seems to ignore component costs and focuses 100% on the combat ability of Wizards then obviously they have virtually no income requirements and can blow everything on magic items and scrolls. :P)

What?:smallconfused:

Wizards have very very very little need for gear beyound the book and spells they get for free. adding more spells is free with a co-operative mage community and secret page as written. If your DM plays all mages as asshats and doesn't allow secret page as written then it'll cost 150gps per page.

:smallconfused: here are some uber high level spells, please point to the ones with component costs or focuses - Moment of prescience, Foresight, Timestop, Mindblank, Dominate Monster, Prismatic Sphere, Mage's Disjunction, Summon Monster 9, Energy Drain, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Shades, Etherealness, Power Word Kill, Mass Hold Monster, Freedom, Imprisonment, Polymorph Any Object, Iron Body, Horrid Wilting, Greater Shadow Evocation, Screen, Scintillating Pattern, Telekinetic Sphere, Greater Shout, Polar Ray, Clenched Fist, Power Word Stun, Irresistable Dance, Demand, Mass Charm Monster, Antipathy, Prying Eyes Greater, Discern Location, Summon Monster 8, Greater Planer Binding, Maze, Incindery Cloud, Prismatic Wall, Dimensional Lock,

- here's a list of high level spells with focuses so low in cost or durations and effects so powerful that the costs are negligble.

Shapechange, Astral Projection, Soul Bind, Trap the Soul, Clone, Symbol of Death, Simulacrum, Gate,

In fact. Here's the list that seems to fit your account of high level magic.

Wish.

That's it. And you can get that from any number of outsiders with it as an SLA which completely undercuts your point.


By epic level he is so focused that there is no way that he will have all of the spells people keep listing (though he can have quite a few of them) and even if he knows them he wont have them all memorised all the time.

It costs either nothing to add spells or 150gp per page dependant on your dm. an epic level character has all the spells they could ever want.



The only reason Jaya is overly useful consistently in combat even is because he has a great big list of magic items. The DM has treated 'Magic items as Candy' and let him spend his entire gold supply on them, which is stupidly stupid when you think about it: Where does the wizard live? (he needs somewhere to store his library etc.) What did he eat all those years he spent getting to level 12 (or at least to his ring)? Why didn't he conduct any research or training? What about the cost of all those material components he has used over the years?
Seems to have given out bucket loads of treasure too.

http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseferatu/pic/0001crt2
Agian, WBL does not work like that!

You are thinking of the table of page 54. The one that shows wealth gain per adventure and factors in expended wealth allowances. WBL is for creating characters at higher than 1st level with the right amount of gear on them to meet the expected CR. It is explicitly for buying gear which at higher than 5th is almost all going to be magic items and not for what you think it is.


But yeah, sighting a single event where the Wizard actually kicked ass in a munchkin monty haul as an example of Wizard supremacy is hardly a good argument and is not surprising in the least

1. It's not a munchkin monty haul, if it was we wouldn't be dying quite so often
2. She's kicked ass twice in a row now dispite being as you point out deeply unoptimized
3. It's an example of wizards having a higher level of power available to them, that's what it shows.
4. yes, I agree with you that the outcome so far has not been surprising.

[Saph]

But still, word one of your Contingencies as "If a Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic is cast in which I am the target or a Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic is cast in which I am within the targeted area." Not perfect, but it'll stop a large number of such attacks. You can even exclude regular Dispel Magic and add in Disjunction once you're high enough level.

Or just ban Craft Contingent Spell in the first place. Speeds up gameplay, improves balance, and avoids long, boring sessions where the Wizard's player spends ages reworking and rewording his contingencies and then arguing with the DM when they don't work the way he wants them to, while the other four players at the table try to restrain themselves from hitting the Wizard's player over the head with heavy blunt objects.

- Saph

[Killer Angel]

But still, word one of your Contingencies as (snip)

I hate Craft contingent spell. This is another proof that splatbooks give tons of advantages to casters, as if Core weren't sufficiently unbalanced...

(This has nothing to do with you PId6... I'm convinced that splatbooks widen the gap between casters and non-casters, regardless of ToB; but this is unrelated to the OP)

[Zeful]

If you're trying to pull off a joke, this one didn't work too well because Celerity is not close enough to Celery imho.

Actually it's pretty close as the former is two letters more than the latter. It may not sound the same, but since my exposure to the spell that should never have been written has only been text based my reading of it is celer-ity which is really close to celer-y.

[PId6]

Or just ban Craft Contingent Spell in the first place. Speeds up gameplay, improves balance, and avoids long, boring sessions where the Wizard's player spends ages reworking and rewording his contingencies and then arguing with the DM when they don't work the way he wants them to, while the other four players at the table try to restrain themselves from hitting the Wizard's player over the head with heavy blunt objects.

- Saph
Oh, I completely agree. That feat is both broken and annoying. Just pointing out it's a possibility though, for the unstoppable wizard.

Actually, it might be worth it to make your regular Contingency specifically anti-dispel or at least anti-Disjunction, since dispelling really hurts wizards, and we all know the problem with Disjunction.


I hate Craft contingent spell. This is another proof that splatbooks give tons of advantages to casters, as if Core weren't sufficiently unbalanced...

(This has nothing to do with you PId6... I'm convinced that splatbooks widen the gap between casters and non-casters, regardless of ToB; but this is unrelated to the OP)
I don't really see it. Splatbooks make the broken wizard slightly more broken, and at the same time make the fighter not boring and not useless. I'd say supplements have done a lot more for balance than against it, especially if your casters aren't set on breaking the game.

[Killer Angel]

I don't really see it. Splatbooks make the broken wizard slightly more broken, and at the same time make the fighter not boring and not useless. I'd say supplements have done a lot more for balance than against it, especially if your casters aren't set on breaking the game.

Ah, but i don't discuss that supplements give more fun for the fighter-type.
I totally agree on this.
Once i post a thread on this argument, but this was the relevant part (to explain my pow):



I often read how the meleers in Core are patetically weak and boring (‘specially fighters), while splatbooks brings more variety and makes the meleers stronger; ToB is a must-have, and thanks to it, the meleers are worth playing (in terms of power, they feels no more useless when adventuring with full casters).
I don’t think this is completely true: splatbooks can give more fun and options in playing meleers, but the power-gap between them and the casters, has become greater.

We know that some of the most broken spells are Core and the difference in power between casters and non casters, in core, is HUGE.
But expansions and splatbooks, have eliminated every limit to casters’ power.

Want to talk about cleric? a cleric can go ‘zilla in core, but he needs rounds of buffing... DMM (with nightstiks combo) don’t exist.

Want to talk about Arcane casters?
If you stay in Core, direct damage is very weak (no orb spells).
In Core, not only you have no feats as persist spells, but, most af all, you have no more metamagic reducers that can bring at 0 metamagic cost.
Wanna apply metamagic feats to spells? It’s possible, but you’ll pay a price.
And certainly you don’t have quicken empowered maximise twinned orb of instadeath using a third level slot.

Magic can resolve a fight in the first round... But in Core, at least the casters must win the initiative, and if they lose, the demons goes first. Outside Core? Contingency with celerity solved even this last problem.
Craft contingent spell eliminates the limit to "one contingent spell active at a time".
And so on...

Want to talk about PrC? a Pc using ToB is a lot stronger than a 10° or 15° lev. core barbarian. But at least there are no Sublime chord, Planar shepard, Incantatrix...

My opinion is that splatbooks had really given more power and fun for the meleers, but that the power gap between casters and non caster, has dramatically increased.


Note that i'm talking only on the possibilities given by the splatbooks: if the casters' players don't want to "break the game", there is no problem neither in Core ('cept maybe boredom).

[PId6]

Ah, but i don't discuss that supplements give more fun for the fighter-type.
I totally agree on this.
Once i post a thread on this argument, but this was the relevant part (to explain my pow):

Note that i'm talking only on the possibilities given by the splatbooks: if the casters' players don't want to "break the game", there is no problem neither in Core ('cept maybe boredom).
I see where you're coming from, but relative power-wise I only see casters going from nigh-invincible to invincible. Thing is, in a normal, controlled game, the core casters will always overshadow the noncasters, short of purposefully gimping themselves or doing really really stupid things. That's no longer true with supplements.

They do give casters more options for breaking the game, but it's not like that's anything new. DMM isn't that bad if you don't use it alongside nightsticks and Persist. Orbs are useful but they're not game-breakingly powerful without some obscene metamagic involved. And a lot of things individually aren't that bad until paired with something else.

Even Celerity isn't too terrible by itself; you can't use it when flat-footed and, unless you can clear out the encounter in one round, (which non-broken casters usually can't,) you'll have to suffer the daze round. Craft Contingent Spell, however, is an exception; that thing shouldn't exist, or at least, should be limited to one per person. Some of the PrCs are also terrible, but even non-casters have their share of those (Hulking Hurler anyone?).

So really, IMO in core, you don't have to look around much to realize spamming Glitterdust is good, or that Enervation makes things much easier to die die. Most of the splatbook stuff you'd have to actively pursue heavy optimizing in order to break them worse than what core already has.

[Killer Angel]

So really, IMO in core, you don't have to look around much to realize spamming Glitterdust is good, or that Enervation makes things much easier to die die. Most of the splatbook stuff you'd have to actively pursue heavy optimizing in order to break them worse than what core already has.

On this, i can certainly agree.
It's easier to break the game in Core-only (let's play this druid with Natural spell) than using splatbooks, where you have to put some major effort to look for nasty combos.

[Myrmex]

So really, IMO in core, you don't have to look around much to realize spamming Glitterdust is good, or that Enervation makes things much easier to die die. Most of the splatbook stuff you'd have to actively pursue heavy optimizing in order to break them worse than what core already has.

Persistent spells and metamagic reducers raises the game to a frightful new level.

[PId6]

Persistent spells and metamagic reducers raises the game to a frightful new level.
But it takes both metamagic reducers and Persistent spells to do that, and usually more than one metamagic reducer. Regular Persist isn't that bad, besides a few problem spells (Wraithstrike). At most, you're persisting Haste, which is good but not too broken.

Using one metamagic reducer by itself (barring Incantatrix) is usually not that bad when applying it with direct damage. It's broken with Enervation, but Enervation's fairly broken anyway. Stacking multiple metamagic reducers or using it with Persist is broken, but that requires digging through multiple sourcebooks. Except for a few exceptions, most splatbook additions aren't too bad by themselves; it's only when you mix and match that things get messy.

[Myrmex]

(barring Incantatrix)

But 3.5 PGtF is the best thing to happen to CharOp!!

[PId6]

But 3.5 PGtF is the best thing to happen to CharOp!!
Not Faiths of Eberron?

[Sir Homeslice]

though 4.0 is not too badly balanced for magic, it completely lacks roleplaying and is just a munchkin-mechanics-fest.

Tell me, how does it feel to not know how utterly wrong you are? I'm just curious, that's all.


But 3.5 PGtF is the best thing to happen to CharOp!!

The book is horrifying. Although, I forget if Teflammar Shadowlord was in that book or not, but I'd just like to say that Teflammar Shadowlord is a fun PrC.

It's also fun to say.

[Doc Roc]

I like saying Teflammar Shadowlord, too.
Gai, as the coordinator for the test of spite, I invite you to roll up a couple of encounters for the monkening. I'm not being brusque, I'm actually curious as to what you'd change. It's a dungeon crawl, after a fashion, but there's some social encounters involved too actually. You should perhaps talk to Saph directly before lambasting him......... It's uh... normally considered good form. :smallamused:

[Shosuro Ishii]

Just out of curosity:

Is there a practical reason that a wizard who focuses on not being killable doesn't take one of the many easy routes to immortality (lichdom comes to mind) to make death even more irrelevant if some stupid serious of contrived circumstances ends up killing them, or is mindraping/dominating a high level cleric to sit and wait around on true ressurection just that much easier?

[mostlyharmful]

Just out of curosity:

Is there a practical reason that a wizard who focuses on not being killable doesn't take one of the many easy routes to immortality (lichdom comes to mind) to make death even more irrelevant if some stupid serious of contrived circumstances ends up killing them, or is mindraping/dominating a high level cleric to sit and wait around on true ressurection just that much easier?

OOC: +4 LA, IC: Liches go bat**** insane and are all evil, not that that'll stop them but you've got to get your BBEGs from somewhere.

Wizards as paranoid as some forum hypotheticals are bound to work out some way of getting immortality just so long as it doesn't slow down their learning curve.

[Doc Roc]

We can rebuild him.

Better.

Stronger.

More Mindswitchy.

[Sir Homeslice]

Just out of curosity:

Is there a practical reason that a wizard who focuses on not being killable doesn't take one of the many easy routes to immortality (lichdom comes to mind) to make death even more irrelevant if some stupid serious of contrived circumstances ends up killing them, or is mindraping/dominating a high level cleric to sit and wait around on true ressurection just that much easier?

Necropolitan is a very good virtual LA+1 Template that hands you undead immunities and resistances.

[Doc Roc]

also, immortality. :)

I'm a fan, personally, of keeping a stack of clones, after performing some basic flesh sculpting so they look wholly different, waiting in safe places.

[Shosuro Ishii]

Makes sense.

I've just seen a ton of these threads and no one ever seems to mention that after you expend all your resources to kill the wizard, exposing yourself in the process, he just uses one of his many viable options to cheat death and comes back at you with full force.

[Gaiyamato]

I like saying Teflammar Shadowlord, too.
Gai, as the coordinator for the test of spite, I invite you to roll up a couple of encounters for the monkening. I'm not being brusque, I'm actually curious as to what you'd change. It's a dungeon crawl, after a fashion, but there's some social encounters involved too actually. You should perhaps talk to Saph directly before lambasting him......... It's uh... normally considered good form. :smallamused:

Look I decided to go over the work a few of you do on here just to see where your all coming from, and all I can find, not just you lot, but the vast majority on here, are Monty Hauls.
You all seems to have fun, and totally over the top magic feuled games seem to be what you guys like, so it's all good. But they hardly make great games to base objective reasoning about balance from.
You lot may play more standard and even really deep rp games IRL or on other sites or wherever. But I don't know that, and cannot make a call on that one, I can only go on what I find in the profiles.

Also I called Jaya a 'he' mistakenly because two of the other players did that for a couple of pages in the actual game, not that anyone playing noticed. lol.
So I just assumed given the lack of detail on the character sheet (Mind you I was typing in between breaks during a uni lecture, so I only skimmed it and focused on what detail I needed for the argument, which was ability scores, magic items and spells. But I did note the huge gaps of missing info at the top of the sheet.) and was mistaken. lol.

The game is fine in and of itself, you lot are having fun it seems and that is the objective of the game, to have fun in a really cleche monty haul. Not my cup of tea. I have no interest in such a base bland dungeon crawl hack and slash game. If I wanted that I'd play WoW or 4th ed. I have enough trouble getting enough rping going in the standard games I'm playing, hence why I tend to start my own. :P

My only point in regards to Jaya was that that was a very poor example of an uber wizard as it was presented to me in the context of this thread. lol.
She is a pretty standard specialist wizard, a bit too beefed up on magic items for my liking, but not overly powerful other than that. As I pointed out, the rest of the party was more than capable of demolishing the critter, the Wizard just beat them to it was all. Thoguh why the wizard suffered nothing for a botched will save I do not know. I'd love to see him play from level 1 up and actually manage to get all of that stuff though (which was actually my main point, if you actually play from level 1, unless the DM is a super munchkin you wont get anywhere near those magic items), but they are the perils of starting at higher levels.


I have been playing Wizards for nearly two decades now. I have played with over 200 different people spanning the globe through various means (real time, pbp or real life. Not saying that all of them were great rpers mind you, I've played some shocking games. Alos I'm not trying to be elitist here. I realise that a completely new player can see thigns an old pro has missed due to the way of thinking he/she learned over the years/decades. :P). Only in the worst imaginable games have I ever seen or been as powerful as everyone craps on about Wizards being.
Some of these examples are ludicrous, though technically doable under RAW, a Wizard almost never reaches the point to be so stupidly op'd/broken.

If he does there are generally so many rp ramifications that he has people on quests of their own after him. This is why in world fluff level 20 Wizards are rare as hens teeth. If a Wizard even manages to get there he has a lot of people who don't want him to remain there and he isn't as all powerful as everyone assumes given he can usually only pull of his uber spell combo's once or twice a day on only a couple of targets at a time at best.

Every discussion on here about a class or build winds up with some fool going "Wizard does better than that, just play a Wizard." (or something to that effect). Given how patently untrue (for all cases, it can be true for specific scenarios.) the statements made about Wizards are it irritates the hell out of me.

I do agree that Wizards in 3.5 are easily the most powerful class as a generalisation and that under RAW you can do some completely silly stuff. But in reality I have found (as have others who have voiced the same things in this very thread, though it was lost in all the fapping over the 'power' of Wizards) that they are on par with the other casters for the most part. I have experienced Wizards often being overshadowed by most of the party until very high levels and rarely does a Wizard get so powerful that they completely overshadow every party member. NEVER have I ever witnessed or experienced a Wizard being able to go completely solo. I have tried, but it always ends badly. (In fact looked at Alla'ketallal in my sig. I've tried to make a negative energy necromancer type as bad-ass in combat as I could. did some pretty munchkiny stuff with him too. But he will never be unbeatable or game-breaking, though maybe at times game-distorting.)

To curb the Wizard all you need to do is nerf a couple of key spells (such as polymorph which, in combination with certain thigns is easily breakable as already mentioned in this thread) and ban one or two other spells (such as Celerity and Time Stop which are completely game breaking even on their own.) and sit down and actually think about the character, and role play him/her accordingly.
One or two RAI changes, make getting good spells small quests of their own, and the Wizard can easily become T3 after that.

As for WBL I realise that it is intended to assume you have already paid for everything else. But the difference it assumes is appalingly cheap. WBL is very over the top. Even if given the recommended wealth for each level as you progress (which rarely happens anyway) you wind up buying that 50gp magic item, and 4 of those scrolls etc. Which you then expend on the next adventure then re-buy.. then expend, over and over. You buy all those rations and that expensive scroll case, only to lose it all when your boat sinks while travelling up river to some temple. etc..
These are the normal loses and perils of adventuring. They happen from time to time, many times in the career of a level 20 character. Usually soaking up a good half or sometimes much more of the gold you gain.

Now think about the time and the amount of things a wizard does to get to level 20 from level 1. It is staggering the volume of resources you consume on the small details. The WBL as it is just gives you a titanic pile of gold to spend on magic items, that is pretty much it.
The lower levels are actually more out of whack than the higher levels with that WBL chart. Level 3 is probably one of the most out of whack levels with what you actually wind up having at level 3. lol.


also, immortality. :)

I'm a fan, personally, of keeping a stack of clones, after performing some basic flesh sculpting so they look wholly different, waiting in safe places.

But think about the rp ramifications. Few Wizards of Good alignment would do this. Probably just about every Evil wizard who isnt some form of undead or an outsider might do it though. lol.
To your average Good aligned level 20 Wizard this just would seem un-natural and he wouldn't even bother learning the spell in all likelyhood.

EDIT: Clone also costs 1000gp of materials a pop and the corpse rots unless other spells are either repeatedly cast or other expensive spells are cast.
Either way it is still costing you a small daily upkeep in some manner.
Though even I could not argue that 1000gp is a problem by level 20. Any wizard who would do this can easily do this unelss you restrict clone. lol.

[Shosuro Ishii]

Look I decided to go over the work a few of you do on here just to see where your all coming from, and all I can find, not just you lot, but the vast majority on here, are Monty Hauls.


You keep using that term. Monty Haul specifically defines a game where players are given well more wealth than they are expected to receive by RAW. WBL is RAW.

Assuming a wizard has any knowledge skills at all, the moment he can shift to other planes, he enters Sigil and finding whatever item he pleases is easy.

And that doesn't even factor the fact that gold is more or less infinite for a high level spellcaster.

In a practical situation, sure, a wizard may not always be able to get a Lyre of building, but in a thought experiment such as this, we assume that it's as easy to get as the rules make it, which is very, very easy.

[Gaiyamato]

You keep using that term. Monty Haul specifically defines a game where players are given well more wealth than they are expected to receive by RAW. WBL is RAW.
Maybe that is the meaning that some people on this site use.
But it is not what the rest of the world understands the term by:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monty%20haul



Assuming a wizard has any knowledge skills at all, the moment he can shift to other planes, he enters Sigil and finding whatever item he pleases is easy.

How does the Wizard know about Sigil and all the wonderous items just laying about waiting for someone to pick up for free? Wait! They aren't!
They are just there, doesn't mean you can get them always.
But again, that even assumes the Wizard is even aware of it. It assumes that the Wizards even wants to do this. It assumes that the wizard even has planeshift.



And that doesn't even factor the fact that gold is more or less infinite for a high level spellcaster.
Only if your DM is stupid and allows inifnite recursion for wealth generation.



In a practical situation, sure, a wizard may not always be able to get a Lyre of building, but in a thought experiment such as this, we assume that it's as easy to get as the rules make it, which is very, very easy.

A thought experiment cannot ignore context and reality (at least to some degree of the reality intruding on context). Else in a game/world of fiction and fantasy we can take things anywhere we want without limit if you take the abstract thought far enough.

And you lot do this in a thread at least once every few days. It is always the same statements over and over. "Wizards are broken" "Wizards are uber" "Just play a Wizard".

[Shosuro Ishii]

How does the Wizard know about Sigil and all the wonderous items just laying about waiting for someone to pick up for free? Wait! They aren't! They are just there, doesn't mean you can get them always. But again, that even assumes the Wizard is even aware of it. It assumes that the Wizards even wants to do this. It assumes that the wizard even has planeshift.

Sigil is one of those places that literaly every high level character should know about. It's like claiming that a cleric 15 wouldn't have heard of the notable layers of the abyss. Also, any wizard who doesn't know plane shift doesn't warrant mentioning in an unkillable wizard scenario.




Only if your DM is stupid and allows inifnite recursion for wealth generation.


Individual DM has no impact on thought experiment discussions, but let's ignore rules cheese for a moment. Any time I need money, I cast gate and summon me up an effreti and wish for either piles upon piles of gems, solving my money woes until I get the EXP to wish up another effreti.



A thought experiment cannot ignore context and reality (at least to some degree of the reality intruding on context). Else in a game/world of fiction and fantasy we can take things anywhere we want without limit if you take the abstract thought far enough.

A thought experiment doesn't ignore context. It ignores the 'well ,a smart GM would do this' because that has no impact on RAW. A wizard, no matter how well played dies to GM Fiat. We know this. However, using everything the way it's printed, a wizard can become nigh unkillable. The unkillable wizard is impractical for a game scenario and not something that should be played. Hence, thought experiment, and hence, a place where we can say things like, 'under RAW, money and finding items is trivial'.



And you lot do this in a thread at least once every few days. It is always the same statements over and over. "Wizards are broken" "Wizards are uber" "Just play a Wizard".

Because these statements are, barring GM Fiat and personal playstyle, true. Spellcasters are the end all be all of power in D&D. The fact that groups get around this doesn't make it any less true.

[Gaiyamato]

{Scrubbed}

[Saph]

The game is fine in and of itself, you lot are having fun it seems and that is the objective of the game, to have fun in a really cleche monty haul. Not my cup of tea. I have no interest in such a base bland dungeon crawl hack and slash game. If I wanted that I'd play WoW or 4th ed.

You're not really helping your case here, you know that?


Thoguh why the wizard suffered nothing for a botched will save I do not know.

Correct. You don't know what the will save was for, nor what the consequences were for failing. Neither do the players.


I'd love to see him play from level 1 up and actually manage to get all of that stuff though (which was actually my main point, if you actually play from level 1, unless the DM is a super munchkin you wont get anywhere near those magic items), but they are the perils of starting at higher levels.

Standard WBL, standard treasure.

You might be interested to know that I played a wizard in a campaign from level 4 up to level 12 - the same level Jaya's at now. She received CR-standard treasure throughout the game and made use of wands, scrolls, and other consumeables. She occasionally bought items, but more often crafted them herself. You'd probably have a heart attack if you saw her equipment list after I'd been playing her for a year or so. :P

- Saph

[Shosuro Ishii]

So barring the fact that it is a roleplaying game (as stated under RAW, depending on how you define RAW. lol.) with a GM (under RAW) and other players (well this is optional, you can have solo games) etc..
Which are all the context it is used in.



Because that's not conductive to discussions like this.

The subject 'by RAW, is a wizard unstoppable'.

In a game where the GM rules that all spells cause a permanent point of CON damage, sure, a wizard is a weak weak class, but that isn't RAW. Context is simple in this case. As the rules are written in the books, is it possible to create an unkillable wizard.

Rule 0 is irrelevant in this discussion.

[Gaiyamato]

You're not really helping your case here, you know that?
LOL
And?



Correct. You don't know what the will save was for, nor what the consequences were for failing. Neither do the players.
Should be amusing to find out then. :)



Standard WBL, standard treasure.
Hence my problem with the standard WBL.



You might be interested to know that I played a wizard in a campaign from level 4 up to level 12 - the same level Jaya's at now. She received CR-standard treasure throughout the game and made use of wands, scrolls, and other consumeables. She occasionally bought items, but more often crafted them herself. You'd probably have a heart attack if you saw her equipment list after I'd been playing her for a year or so. :P

- Saph

See above points. I stand by my statements as I see no reason why this statement contradicts anything I have said.

I probably would be horrified and probably slap the DM.
Thought at least you earned them through game play and character development..... I hope.

[SparkMandriller]

But that spell is ridiculous and should be banned. So should a ring of sustenance as it breaks the world economy.

A ring that costs 2500 gold and lets you save 5 sp per day is just incredibly broken, is it?

[Gaiyamato]

A ring that costs 2500 gold and lets you save 5 sp per day is just incredibly broken, is it?

Over a lifetime it is. Look at the things it does as well.

[mostlyharmful]

Maybe that is the meaning that some people on this site use.
But it is not what the rest of the world understands the term by:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=monty%20haul


And again, could you explain why a game which has so far had two encounters and three fatalities and two characters on a 1/4 or less hp as well can be considered Monty Haul by that definition?

Or how a team of this rogue (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=137099), an Evoker barring Conj and Trans, a Druid that doesn't wildshape and a Monk are over powered or optimized?


Only if your DM is stupid and allows inifnite recursion for wealth generation.

Seriously dude, the wealth table on page 54 of the DMG, it covers how much characters should be spending between encounters and levels. And infinite wealth generation is something that, by RAW at least, the Wizard CAN do but almost never does because the player's a nice guy and doesn't put the DM under that kind of pressure. The amount of Gold available at 15+ is so high and the costs of casting are so infinitesimal that yes, the wizard does need to stretch to get through all it's allocated consumables.

[HamHam]

I'd love to see him play from level 1 up and actually manage to get all of that stuff though (which was actually my main point, if you actually play from level 1, unless the DM is a super munchkin you wont get anywhere near those magic items), but they are the perils of starting at higher levels.

So according to you, a DM that follows the WBL guidelines is a "super munchkin"? Because by definition the WBL is the items that you should have accumulated by playing up to that level.

In practice, I've found that you will actually end up with more money by playing through all those levels because making money is really easy. Just rob some rich evil people. Or negotiate up your fee for saving people. Or use Profession/Perform/Craft or sell your spell casting ability for non-adventuring purposes.

And again, a Wizard will be even more powerful if the characters have less than appropriate wealth.

[SparkMandriller]

Over a lifetime it is. Look at the things it does as well.

Do you ban the profession skill too? Because, I mean, whoa, over a lifetime you can make money with it!

Yeah, I realise that time spent professioning is time not spent adventuring, but if you've been wearing your ring for 13 years and still care about 5 sp per day, then I kinda doubt you've been adventuring much either. Unless you've got some sort of black hole following you around stealing all your XP. Or you've got a DM that hasn't quite worked out how WBL works. (Hey, waiiiiit a minute...)



Come to think of it, do you ban clerics too? Because I mean whoa, they get a spell that makes food. For free. Like, broken! And that, that class in the BoED that gets free money because it's bros with some god, or something. Or do you just insist they ROLEPLAY, because that can fix anything being overpowered?

[Kaiyanwang]

Do you ban the profession skill too? Because, I mean, whoa, over a lifetime you can make money with it!

Yeah, I realise that time spent professioning is time not spent adventuring, but if you've been wearing your ring for 13 years and still care about 5 sp per day, then I kinda doubt you've been adventuring much either. Unless you've got some sort of black hole following you around stealing all your XP. Or you've got a DM that hasn't quite worked out how WBL works. (Hey, waiiiiit a minute...)



Come to think of it, do you ban clerics too? Because I mean whoa, they get a spell that makes food. For free. Like, broken! And that, that class in the BoED that gets free money because it's bros with some god, or something. Or do you just insist they ROLEPLAY, because that can fix anything being overpowered?

I don't see your point.

[mostlyharmful]

I don't see your point.

That money is evil and overpowered and the PCs should not be allowed it no matter how easy it is for them to make huge piles of cash?:smallconfused:

[Killer Angel]

So according to you, a DM that follows the WBL guidelines is a "super munchkin"? Because by definition the WBL is the items that you should have accumulated by playing up to that level.


Probably (I don't know), he's referring to the fact that WBL is a guidelines that indicates how many gp-value a pc has in magic items, but it's not given that you can have exactly the items you need to be optimized.
A campaign can follow the WBL, but:
case one: you find money, then you buy whatever magic item you need 'cause you go to the great capital.
Case two: the DM lets the pcs find magic items (looting the monster's lair, etc), but with no magic shop available.

In the first scenario, your pc is better equipped than the second, even if they both follow the WBL.

[SparkMandriller]

I don't see your point.

My point is that a ring of sustenance should not be banned for breaking the economy because it really doesn't help you save very much money at all.

[Gnaeus]

Probably (I don't know), he's referring to the fact that WBL is a guidelines that indicates how many gp-value a pc has in magic items, but it's not given that you can have exactly the items you need to be optimized.
A campaign can follow the WBL, but:
case one: you find money, then you buy whatever magic item you need 'cause you go to the great capital.
Case two: the DM lets the pcs find magic items (looting the monster's lair, etc), but with no magic shop available.

In the first scenario, your pc is better equipped than the second, even if they both follow the WBL.

Playing in games where the DM generates random treasure and doesn't let PCs buy what they want makes casters stronger, not weaker, by comparison with other party members. (Well, except for the archivist, whose route to infinite cosmic power involves mooching scrolls from unusual spell lists).

1. Your caster can be effective in most encounters with nothing but a spell component pouch. Meleers need magic gear to fly, or penetrate DR, or hit incorporeal, or swarms, etc.

2. If the caster doesn't get gear he wants with adequate regularity, he spends a feat and crafts it himself, at half cost. (Pushing himself higher above the WBL, by the way) His feat chosen is probably craft wands or craft wondrous items, because those are what the typical caster needs, not craft arms/armor, because that is mostly needed by the meleers (If they are really lucky, the cleric takes it.)

One more way casters have upper hand over melee.

[mostlyharmful]

Probably (I don't know), he's referring to the fact that WBL is a guidelines that indicates how many gp-value a pc has in magic items, but it's not given that you can have exactly the items you need to be optimized.
A campaign can follow the WBL, but:
case one: you find money, then you buy whatever magic item you need 'cause you go to the great capital.
Case two: the DM lets the pcs find magic items (looting the monster's lair, etc), but with no magic shop available.

In the first scenario, your pc is better equipped than the second, even if they both follow the WBL.

case three - you make the items yourself
case four - you specifically commision the items from a trusted NPC
case five - you make those items the aim of a quest and don't expect them to fall out of the sky
case six - the DM takes pity on the noncasters that deperately need a leg up by giving them specifically tailored stuff to try to keep them relivant while the other players shuffle around, try not to meet each others eyes and whistle a little
case seven - You take this loot of an NPC that has also been looking for/buying useful stuff rather than random crap, you kill a BBEG wizard you don't expect his corpse to have five +1 swords and a rod of metal detection - When in doubt trust in the looting.
case eight - you request reward/payment before the quest begins and let the NPC questgiver sort out the details rather than just accept any junk they hand you, difficult if it's bob the farmer but totally in line with dealing with Bob the Archmage or his majesty king Bob
case nine - your campaign world is large and old and includes planer metropolisis with enough high level schmoes to generate a magic item economy and thus very very very secure bank based fortresses with an attached viewing parlour or index catalogue of things you can exhange gold for.

[AstralFire]

Saph accused of being a Monty Haul Munchkin.
And yesterday I saw 40k players telling GoW fans that GoW's armor was too unrealistic to enjoy.

Well, now I've seen everything. Time to die a happy being.

[mostlyharmful]

Saph accused of being a Monty Haul Munchkin.

You can tell by the low death rate.:smallamused:

We're on the third round of our third encounter and so far this time No-bodies died or even been taken into the negatives. woot.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Yet. :smallamused:

[mostlyharmful]

Yet. :smallamused:

Yeah, you can really tell a monty haul by the way I'm still not going to try eating the food even after being told it's not poisonous once and everyone sense motiving the perfectly reasonable, polite, believable clerics of Pelor.

[Killer Angel]

Playing in games where the DM generates random treasure and doesn't let PCs buy what they want makes casters stronger, not weaker, by comparison with other party members.

I totally agree.


case three - you make the items yourself
case four - you specifically commision the items from a trusted NPC
case five - you make those items the aim of a quest and don't expect them to fall out of the sky
snip


ehm... please don't jump at my throat. :smalltongue:
I DON'T support the "random treasure" Vs "logical equipment".
I was merely imagining what gaiyamato was thinking when he wrote about the super-munchkin DM (following WBL).

[AstralFire]

I have to say that as a DM I personally run way under WBL, but I give out tailored items to my party. Much fewer to the casters, though. The party as a whole pretty equally gets 'useless yet awesome magic items' for flavor, though.

[mostlyharmful]

ehm... please don't jump at my throat. :smalltongue:
I DON'T support the "random treasure" Vs "logical equipment".
I was merely imagining what gaiyamato was thinking when he wrote about the super-munchkin DM (following WBL).

sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like that, it's just a short list of where treasure might come from. It seemed yours was too short to be realistic over how either option might play out. Didn't mean to be rude.:smallredface::smallfrown:

[Killer Angel]

sorry, didn't mean for it to sound like that, it's just a short list of where treasure might come from. It seemed yours was too short to be realistic over how either option might play out. Didn't mean to be rude.:smallredface::smallfrown:

No problem. :smallsmile:
My actual solution in the current campaign (that I like a lot) is that the pcs work for a big organization (Morandin's church, Orc Empire, etc.), and they are furnished directly by said organization.
They have the best equipment in a world with low magic, and the equipment (WBL) is suited for them: if they want / need something peculiar, they ask... if i think the object is too much strong, "sorry, we haven't it", but I concede the second item choice, or I give the item for only one mission, etc.
About 1/3 of the equipment (potions, minor object, etc) change with a good frequency.

[Doc Roc]

I think, and worry, that this debate is naturally divisive.

[BillyJimBoBob]

I hear all this talk about wizards at higher level being literally unbeatable but their are some things im unclear on.

Most of the wizards are unbeatable threads seem to be assuming the wizard has every spell but don't wizards need to buy their spells? wouldn't they be limited by what spells they could afford/ find?Here's the RAW:

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.
This by itself would be enough spells, since there are a plethora of broken spells to select from. But then you have this argument: If the Fighter is able to find a shop that sells swords, and the Cleric is able to find a temple that sells his holy symbol, then to deny the Wizard a shop that can sell him more spells is unfairly picking on the Wizard, and is GM interference with one class in favor of the others.

This argument has merit on a strictly GM neutrality basis, but it conveniently ignores the fact that the GM is also charged with providing a fun game setting for all of the players. Where the balance should lie between those two charges is fuel for endless arguments.

Wouldn't something like a willo-wisp with broad spell immunity be very dangerous to a wizard ( i know they could summon a monster to kill it but then that means that every day they need to have several summon spells prepared)No. For any threat you can conceive, there is a spell or combination of spells which can counter it.

Maybe its just me but it seems like these threads are assuming the wizards always know what their going to be fighting and have all the time in the world to prepare spells.You mean, just like the Fighter always carries his armor and sword around with him to be ready for a fight? You see, we quickly go back to the "fair" argument. And Wizards also have a plethora of ways to find private time to prepare their spells, and a wide variety of utility spells usefull in every conceivable situation.

Now that said i'm curious about the answer maybe theirs some part of the equation i'm missing.The only equation you missed is this:
1000+ spells = Broken game = "win" for casters.

[Umael]

I think, and worry, that this debate is naturally divisive.

Now, why would you say that?

To regards to the originally question, are wizards unstoppable? The answer is no, but please read carefully my reasons.

1) DM fiat trumps all.
We've had this discussion before. The DM doesn't need to follow the RAI or the RAW. If the DM says "Rocks fall, everyone dies," that's what happens, wizard power be ****ed.

2) Wizards are squishy. Especially at low-level.
At this "magical" (no pun intended) level of 13th, the Wizard gets access to Plane Shift and takes a step closer to godhood. Before then, a Rogue in the night with Sneak Attack might make things uncomfortable for said Wizard. After that, it becomes a quest to find all the clones and destroy them ("You can do it, Harry Potter!"), trick the Wizard into an anti-magic zone, and then slaughter him.
Doable. Not easy, but doable. And if the Wizard is on his (or her) guard, nigh impossible at the higher levels.

Personally, I don't like how high powered wizards get, as it gives an unfair advantage to them while people like fighters and monks remain underpowered. I understand the Tier system and I believe that it is not to be used as a "I'm a Wizard, I'm all-powerful, nyah-nyah-nyah!", but as a way to make sure a skilled DM and a responsible player don't let their character overshadow another player's character. I would love to see a comprehensive overhaul of the magic system, the primary spellcaster classes, and a boost to all the melee classes to get everyone to T3 (which seems to be the optimal power level to me).

But that's just me.

[The Glyphstone]

Now, why would you say that?

2) Wizards are squishy. Especially at low-level.
At this "magical" (no pun intended) level of 13th, the Wizard gets access to Plane Shift and takes a step closer to godhood. Before then, a Rogue in the night with Sneak Attack might make things uncomfortable for said Wizard. .

Wizards are squishy at low levels, but I think you meant to say 5th level, not 13th level. That's when the wizard can cast a 10-hour Extended Rope Trick every night and be completely safe from all those meaniehead rogues with their +1 Knives of Kidneyshanking. Coincidentally, level 5 is also when the Wizard gets stuff like Fly, which is the beginning of him being able to render a vast majority of encounters obsolete, or Fireball, which while technically suboptimal, is still a heck of a lot of fun. Before 5th level, they're fragile and heavily dependent on luck - either they get their encounter-ending spell off successfully or they're screwed. Beyond that, they start rising in effectiveness quadratically.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Because with all sources and a focused specialist, you get just as many spells/day, more feats, faster spell progression, better metamagic, and more versatility.
Arcane Spellsurge -> Greater Arcane Fusion -> Arcane Fusion = Many, many spells.


Coincidentally, level 5 is also when the Wizard gets stuff like Fly, which is the beginning of him being able to render a vast majority of encounters obsolete, or Fireball, which while technically suboptimal, is still a heck of a lot of fun.

Fireball becomes better if you use it at max range. Nuking people from 400+ feet away while they can't do anything about it is a decent way to handle encounters.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yeah, you can really tell a monty haul by the way I'm still not going to try eating the food even after being told it's not poisonous once and everyone sense motiving the perfectly reasonable, polite, believable clerics of Pelor.

Sounds like someone needs a Ring of Sustainance.:smallamused:


I think, and worry, that this debate is naturally divisive.

Tide, people are naturally divisive. It is human nature to form ingroups and outgroups, and have prejudices against outsiders.

[mostlyharmful]

Sounds like someone needs a Ring of Sustainance.:smallamused:

Hey, you know you're not poisoned. I could just shank you and roast the corpse. Plus it would give us something to chew over on the whole 'when do wizards get to be invulnerable'. And you'd just pop back up in a few hours... what da'ya say????:smallamused:

[Umael]

Wizards are squishy at low levels, but I think you meant to say 5th level, not 13th level. That's when the wizard can cast a 10-hour Extended Rope Trick every night and be completely safe from all those meaniehead rogues with their +1 Knives of Kidneyshanking.

Okay, so toss the "Sneak-in-the-Night-Kill-Them-While-They-Sleep-Laugh-Over-Their-Corpses" plan out.

Go to "Attack-by-Surprise-Up-Close-and-Personal". Might be effective in inns run by Thieves Guild and during International Gymnastics Competitions.

1d4 + Con mod / level for hit points versus 1d6 + Str mod + extra weapon damage + 1d6 / 2 levels is plenty to take out at least half of a wizard's hit points, if not kill outright. Still flat-footed on the first round of combat, and you have a wizard-kerbob.

Assume 14 Con for the Wizard, the Wizard has:
1 - 6 (1d4 (max) + 2)
2 - 10.5 (1d4 + 2 per level afterwards, average 4.5)
3 - 15
4 - 19.5
5 - 24
6 - 28.5
7 - 33
8 - 37.5
9 - 42
10- 46.5
11 - 51
12 - 55.5
13 - 60

Assume 14 Str for the Rogue, let's forgoes magical weapons and magical protections for now...

1 - 9 (1d6 + 2 + 1d6) - Wizard goes down
2 - 9 (Wizard at 1.5 hp - ouch)
3 - 12.5 (Wizard at 2.5 hp - still ouch)
4 - 12.5 (Wizard at 7 hp)
5 - 16 (Wizard at 8 hp)
6 - 16 (Wizard at 12.5 hp)
7 - 19.5 (Wizard at 13.5 hp)
8 - 19.5 (Wizard at 18 hp)
9 - 23 (Wizard at 19 hp)
10 - 23 (Wizard at 23.5 hp)
11 - 26.5 (Wizard at 24.5 hp)
12 - 26.5 (Wizard at 29 hp)
13 - 30 (Wizard at 30 hp)

Huh. Interesting. Well, this is without spells or magical items, so make of it as you will.

[Xaklin_Magewrit]

That rogue can't enter rope trick.

[mostlyharmful]

That rouge can't enter rope trick.

But the lipstick'll smack you around no problem.

[Umael]

That rogue can't enter rope trick.

...

*sigh*

Yes, very good. You pointed out something I already knew, so you completely missed the fact that the rogue isn't going to be trying to ambush the wizard in his sleep.

That doesn't change the tactic, though.

Get the rogue up-close-and-personal. Ambush. Roll high.

Yes, it won't be easy to do. But it is doable.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Thought at least you earned them through game play and character development..... I hope.

I've just about had it with your roleplay snobbery.

In a discussion about mechanics, your opinions on how people should roleplay their characters are meaningless.

Oh, and I see that you've complaining about the fact that our characters have gear. Well, let's see...

Tina the Rogue probably stole her's.

Gladiator is an exhibition fighter, so his sponsors probably gave them to him.

Dok... I have no ideas what items he has, so I can't comment.

And as for Jaya? Official background is that she's a Loremaster and Evocation researcher for a mage's guild. If anyone would have magical gear, it would be her.

[mostlyharmful]

...

*sigh*

Yes, very good.

you've got a point with a lower level wizard. Dogpile him with no warning and hope he's not got an immediate action anklet.

Gets tricky once they get DimDoor but it's still workable if you can get enough of a drop on them, multiple SAing Rogues with poison say.

At least until contingency, when it's necessary to start using long term planning and social skills to get them to trust you enough to not hide out from you after they've burned their Contingency so you can still gank them.

After about 13 then you start getting into the silly realms of impenetrable fortresses and layered protections, contingency planning as well as effects, gets a bit academic.

[Kelpstrand]

Well, if you can get within 30ft to a level 15 or lower unbuffed Wizard and beat him in Init with a Rogue, you can kill him pretty well.

So attacking in the middle of a city when he has his guard down is possible from level 1-8, because those are levels they can't shop in Sigil were you will be plot blocked.

Of course, a Rogue that wins initiative and full attacks an unbuffed enemy can kill basically any PC that way unless they are undead and disguising it.

It's still mostly a suicide tactic though, because Rogues below level 8 don't exactly have an escape plan for after they use their turn on a full attack and all the guards and other PCs within range start to kill them.

I don't recommend ever using a Rogue hit squad on any PC unless you make sure it fails in advance and just leads to a plot point.

Besides, you can bring people back to life, so killing them in a city isn't a very good method to beat someone you actually want to stay dead.

Kill them in your dungeon and they have to actually use either a 9th level spell or come find the body (which you fed to a Barghest, or Imprisoned, or tossed into a Portable hole inside a bag of holding.)

But kill them in the street or bar with your assassin, and they just carry him off to the local church and hold a grudge.

As a DM you can do that, it's just not actually productive unless your actual goals is to play a game at lower levels, in which case, I recommend just asking if they want to play at lower levels.

[HamHam]

So attacking in the middle of a city when he has his guard down

Why would he have his guard down? For adventurers, cities are more dangerous than most wilderness.

[Kelpstrand]

Why would he have his guard down? For adventurers, cities are more dangerous than most wilderness.

Well, the point is, you hypothetical kill Wizard goal is best done by rolling initiative against him when he does not have immunity to critical hits, or if he does (IE he is undead) you knew about it before you showed up.

So unless Wizards in cities walk around with Mirror Image or Blur of Displacement or something else that would take all his spell slots to keep up, you can kill him.

Of course, if he's got some Heart of XX going on, or if he can beat you in initiative, and you didn't see that coming, you might just fail anyway and still die.

But as long as he is subject to SA, you can easily pump out 2d6 per level in just SA, not counting weapon damage. And that's enough to kill most people since you get some base damage bonuses and weapon damage, and 2d6 out averages even a d12 HD. Maybe some Con monstrosities might survive, but not a lot.

[mostlyharmful]

Well, the point is, you hypothetical kill Wizard goal is best done by rolling initiative against him when he does not have immunity to critical hits, or if he does (IE he is undead) you knew about it before you showed up.

So unless Wizards in cities walk around with Mirror Image or Blur of Displacement or something else that would take all his spell slots to keep up, you can kill him.

Of course, if he's got some Heart of XX going on, or if he can beat you in initiative, and you didn't see that coming, you might just fail anyway and still die.

But as long as he is subject to SA, you can easily pump out 2d6 per level in just SA, not counting weapon damage. And that's enough to kill most people since you get some base damage bonuses and weapon damage, and 2d6 out averages even a d12 HD. Maybe some Con monstrosities might survive, but not a lot.

unless he's wearing anklets of Translocation. And really, at 1800gp who can afford them. or has a contingent DimDoor set to go off when he says 'ugamaflip' which is an immediate action. Or he's undead with a hat of disguise/robe of blending/ring of chameleon power and hasn't let anyone know.

[Umael]

But as long as he is subject to SA, you can easily pump out 2d6 per level in just SA

???

How?

[sofawall]

I can get many d6 in damage, but I'm not sure about SA.

Swift Ambusher gets, what, 10d6 sneak attack, 5d6 skirmish, 2d6 improved skirmish, 2d6 Raptor Arrows, 1d6 bow, 1d6 fire, 1d6 frost, 1d6 electricity, 2d6 holy...

I count 25, which is 15 short of 40. I'm surely missing something, but not 15d6. And from what I can see, you need 30d6 more SA. You can, unless
I'm mistaken, almost get HDd6 SA, plus other stuff, but 2*HD?

I call both bull**** and shenanigans.

[Kelpstrand]

unless he's wearing anklets of Translocation. And really, at 1800gp who can afford them. or has a contingent DimDoor set to go off when he says 'ugamaflip' which is an immediate action. Or he's undead with a hat of disguise/robe of blending/ring of chameleon power and hasn't let anyone know.

A) Flat footed, no actions.

B) Level 1-8, no Contingency.

C) See that whole discussion about undeadity.


???

How?

By attacking more than once. A level 5 Halfling Rogue can use thrown weapons and pull off 4 attacks for 4d6 SA each. They may only do 1d2 damage non SA, but that still comes out to 16d6+4d2 average damage 62. Or they could use Acid Flasks for 20d6. And they could fit Craven in if they are Strongheart for 20d6+5, or average 75 damage.

[HamHam]

So unless Wizards in cities walk around with Mirror Image or Blur of Displacement or something else that would take all his spell slots to keep up, you can kill him.

He walks around with whatever he normally does. Which probably includes one or more effects to prevent dying from one full attack.

Also, does your brilliant plan factor in the extra hit points from False Life?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

unless he's wearing anklets of Translocation. And really, at 1800gp who can afford them. or has a contingent DimDoor set to go off when he says 'ugamaflip' which is an immediate action. Or he's undead with a hat of disguise/robe of blending/ring of chameleon power and hasn't let anyone know.

Anklets are 1400 gp

[Kelpstrand]

He walks around with whatever he normally does. Which probably includes one or more effects to prevent dying from one full attack.

Also, does your brilliant plan factor in the extra hit points from False Life?

1) You think level 1-8 Wizards walk around with buffs up all day? I can't think of any 10 minute per level spells that would stop someone from Full attacking you, and if you spent like 5 spells on Mirror Image at level 5 it would still only be 25 minutes that day, at the cost of all your second level slots.

By level 8 you could at least use all 5-6 slots for 40-48 minutes of protection, and you'd still have third and fourth level slots. But still.

2) Yes, False life adds on average 10HP to a level 5 Wizard, 13 to a level 8 Wizard.

A level 8 Wizard with 14 Con and false life still has 49HP, which means you need to do 60 damage to kill him. I just showed a build that did 62 and 75 at level 5. A level 5 Rogue that wins initiative gets to kill a Wizard.

[lsfreak]

A rogue can't count on winning initiative. Between Improved Initiative, Nerveskitter, and Dex14-16+, the wizard has a higher initiative modifier than the rogue. Especially because his first two feats are already spoken for just by being a rogue.

[HamHam]

1) You think level 1-8 Wizards walk around with buffs up all day? I can't think of any 10 minute per level spells that would stop someone from Full attacking you, and if you spent like 5 spells on Mirror Image at level 5 it would still only be 25 minutes that day, at the cost of all your second level slots.

Let's see:

Protection from Arrows gives you DR 10/magic against ranged weapons. So unless all of your thrown weapons are at least +1, that's a good chunk of the damage gone.

Greater Mage Armor plus probably at least 2 from NA or deflection means a flat footed AC of 18. Not stellar but enough to prevent some hits.

[Kelpstrand]

A rogue can't count on winning initiative. Between Improved Initiative, Nerveskitter, and Dex14-16+, the wizard has a higher initiative modifier than the rogue. Especially because his first two feats are already spoken for just by being a rogue.

I never claimed he could. I explicitly called it out as one of the things that just bones this strategy. But it is possible to run into level 1-8 Wizards without Nerveskitter. And it is possible to have Improved Init with the Rogue. And you will probably have higher Dex. All in all, I'd say against a previously researched Wizard, bam, good 50% chance to kill him with a hypothetical CR 5 challenge against a level 8 party. I also said don't do it.

And Ham, you now have spent like 4 spells on defense at level 5, including from your highest level slot. Can you just accept that maybe Wizards in cities who lose Initiative to Rogues die?

Also, none of those in your last post help against the 75 Acid damage barrage that targets flat footed touch AC.

[Umael]

A rogue can't count on winning initiative.

True.



Between Improved Initiative, Nerveskitter, and Dex14-16+, the wizard has a higher initiative modifier than the rogue. Especially because his first two feats are already spoken for just by being a rogue.

1) What book is Nerveskitter and what does it do (nevermind the notion that we are using Core only)?

2) What are the rogue's first two feats?? Because I'm betting I can pick two completely different feats and still have a valid rogue concept.

3) A rogue benefits more from having a high Dexterity than any other stat. In my experience, most PC rogues tend to be Dex 15-18; i.e., more than the wizard.

On the reverse side, I rarely see the wizard (or the sorcerer) taking Improved Initiative. Playing style, most likely.

[Kelpstrand]

2) What are the rogue's first two feats?? Because I'm betting I can pick two completely different feats and still have a valid rogue concept.

Well maybe, but you'd be seriously cramping style on this particular character which is one of the only ones that can kill a wizard in one round without being adjacent to it.


On the reverse side, I rarely see the wizard (or the sorcerer) taking Improved Initiative. Playing style, most likely.

Well, in Core only, you probably won't have it for a while, because there are better things, but then you will, because you run out of better things.

Outside of Core, there is an ACF that trades Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat. And the only Fighter Bonus feat you want is Improved Initiative.

[Alleine]

Also, none of those in your last post help against the 75 Acid damage barrage that targets flat footed touch AC.

I really hate to ask, mostly because you shouldn't be cryptic when claiming things, but where is the acid coming from?


Nerveskitter gives a +5 bonus to initiative.
Though I highly doubt that most wizards put a 16 into dex unless they roll really well, and even fewer will take improved initiative. I suppose an extended Heroics might do the trick. lvl 2 spell, grants a temporary fighter feat which could very well be improved initiative.

[Aneantir]

Outside of Core, there is an ACF that trades Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat. And the only Fighter Bonus feat you want is Improved Initiative.

Depends what you call core. That specific variant is in the SRD.

[lsfreak]

Nerveskitter. Gain +5 bonus to your initiative as an immediate action, from SPC and... Magic of Faerun maybe? Also, I wasn't aware this was core-only, as we've already had multiple mentions of non-core feats or items.

The feats are TWF and Weapon Finesse. Yes, you can get others, but you're severely gimping yourself as a rogue by doing so.

I'm not arguing rogues aren't Dex-focused, they certainly are. But even in a low-powered point-buy, a wizard will aim for at least 14Dex.

Yes, outside of core you trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative. You can also get it at first level and retrain it later for something useful (like a metamagic that you can't make any decent use of until level 5). And even in core, it's certainly not a bad investment, as a wizard can have the most effect when it acts first, and your other primary investment (metamagic feats) won't do you any good for several levels.

[Kelpstrand]

I really hate to ask, mostly because you shouldn't be cryptic when claiming things, but where is the acid coming from?

Well I wasn't cryptic in the post that I mentioned it, where I explained that a Halfling Rogue could throw four Xs, and one example of X is Acid Flask.

IE, ignores Prot from Arrows, and targets touch AC, and does more damage than daggers and fits with the NPC strategy of consuming wealth to be stronger instead of spending it on permanent effects.

[tyckspoon]

Well, in Core only, you probably won't have it for a while, because there are better things, but then you will, because you run out of better things.


I would have thought this was backwards- Improved Initiative is one of the best feats for everybody in Core, especially as the first-level feat. What else is a Wizard going to take at that point? He doesn't have the spell levels to use metamagics, he doesn't have much use for the weapon feats, item crafting feats take more money and a higher caster level.. what else are his options? Skill bonus feats? Dodge? If he's a Conjurer he might favor Spell Focus on the way to Augment Summoning. Maybe he wants Eschew Materials, but that's not 'better' than Improved Initiative, it's just kind of nice to have. Maybe he's trying the Loremaster/Archmage route- that's so feat-intensive that you need to use all your feats to get into it at a reasonable level, so that particular build might skip Improved Initiative.

[Shosuro Ishii]

Can you just accept that maybe Wizards in cities who lose Initiative to Rogues die?



At very low levels sure.

So, you've proven you can kill low level wizards who walk around alone, without protection. That's just fine.

But unless you have someway to go back in time, how do you handle the wizard when he has learned Dim Door/Contigency tricks? Or when he can plane shift to his extrademinsonal fortress and have his dominated minions do his shopping and such for him. Those are the wizard people talk about when they discuss unkillable wizards.

Wizards are just game deforming up until about level 12ish. It's at that point that wizards become unstoppable killing machines.

[sofawall]

As we have seen in this thread, wizards have many 'I win' spells. To use these spells, they want to go before the enemy so they don't have painful and creative things done to their kidneys (to loosely quote Tidesinger). Therefore, in my groups, we tend to see wizards (well, in my case, sorcerers, I prefer them) with +25 init and cannot be flat-footed at level, oh, 10? Near enough.

It got to the point where the Sorcerer rolled a 1 for init and the Cleric rolled 20. The Sorcerer went first without Nerveskitter, which, btw, adds 5 to your initiative and is (I believe) in SpC.

[Kelpstrand]

The feats are TWF and Weapon Finesse. Yes, you can get others, but you're severely gimping yourself as a rogue by doing so.

Well this Rogue never takes Weapon Finesse because he specializes in throwing things, and he gets four feat before he qualifies for Weapon Finesse anyway. So his first feats are Quickdraw and Point Blank Shot (Into Rapid Shot). Although, come to think of it, I don't know how I got 4 attacks, at level 5 when haste isn't really an option it's only 3. So only 15d6+5 damage, still average 50, but not actually enough to kill a level 8 Wizard with false life. Need to up to level 7 to do that.

[Kelpstrand]

At very low levels sure.

So, you've proven you can kill low level wizards who walk around alone, without protection. That's just fine.

But unless you have someway to go back in time, how do you handle the wizard when he has learned Dim Door/Contigency tricks? Or when he can plane shift to his extrademinsonal fortress and have his dominated minions do his shopping and such for him. Those are the wizard people talk about when they discuss unkillable wizards.

Wizards are just game deforming up until about level 12ish. It's at that point that wizards become unstoppable killing machines.

Headdesk. I explicitly said that this strategy ceases to exist at level 9 because everyone goes to Sigil where trying this results in all your attacks flying into portals that come out right behind you.

And low level Wizards don't have protection. I asked for any spells a Wizard would have active in town, I got three and a hypothetical +2 NA. Even with all three it does nothing to stop the Rogue from killing them.

Yes, level 1-8 Wizards do not have protection in town. Yes they do die. Yes I explicitly called out immunity to this at higher level. Yes I explicitly pointed out that they have to actually win initiative first and that's not always guaranteed.

[Shosuro Ishii]

Headdesk. I explicitly said that this strategy ceases to exist at level 9 because everyone goes to Sigil where trying this results in all your attacks flying into portals that come out right behind you.

And low level Wizards don't have protection. I asked for any spells a Wizard would have active in town, I got three and a hypothetical +2 NA. Even with all three it does nothing to stop the Rogue from killing them.

Yes, level 1-8 Wizards do not have protection in town. Yes they do die. Yes I explicitly called out immunity to this at higher level. Yes I explicitly pointed out that they have to actually win initiative first and that's not always guaranteed.

Ok, I'm sorry if I'm being daft, but what have you proven. This thread isn't about 'at low levels with minimum buffs, are wizards killable'. It's 'are high level wizards killable.'

Proving you can kill a low level wizard adds nothing more to the discussion than pointing that you can kill a blaster wizard who doesn't know what contigency and celerity are.

[Alleine]

Well I wasn't cryptic in the post that I mentioned it, where I explained that a Halfling Rogue could throw four Xs, and one example of X is Acid Flask.

Sorry, I missed that part of the post. I was just curious. It bugs me to no end when people claim something and then don't bother explaining it.

You could also try adding in some nice con damage poisons. You could coat a bottle of acid in contact poison, right? :smallamused:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

And low level Wizards don't have protection. I asked for any spells a Wizard would have active in town, I got three and a hypothetical +2 NA. Even with all three it does nothing to stop the Rogue from killing them.

Yes, level 1-8 Wizards do not have protection in town. Yes they do die. Yes I explicitly called out immunity to this at higher level. Yes I explicitly pointed out that they have to actually win initiative first and that's not always guaranteed.

A 5th level+ wizard could maintain light fortification from Heart of Air and Heart of Water (both Complete Mage), possibly grabbing the rest for straight immunity instead of going undead. Grab either metamagic school focus to lower extend to free or a rod of it to keep them up for most of the day.

[HamHam]

Well I wasn't cryptic in the post that I mentioned it, where I explained that a Halfling Rogue could throw four Xs, and one example of X is Acid Flask.

IE, ignores Prot from Arrows, and targets touch AC, and does more damage than daggers and fits with the NPC strategy of consuming wealth to be stronger instead of spending it on permanent effects.

Four Acid Flasks is 4d6 acid damage total. Are you claiming you can SA with an acid flask and have the SA be acid damage? Because I'm having a hard time believing that is even RAW, much less that any DM would allow it. That's venerable Dragonborn Kobold level cheese right there.

[tyckspoon]

Four Acid Flasks is 4d6 acid damage total. Are you claiming you can SA with an acid flask and have the SA be acid damage? Because I'm having a hard time believing that is even RAW, much less that any DM would allow it. That's venerable Dragonborn Kobold level cheese right there.

You can sneak attack with anything that uses an attack roll, and the damage type is the same as whatever the base attack uses. I think the Core rules have this as an oversight, although the 'you can sneak attack' part leads on from the rules for qualifying for a sneak attack and the 'same damage type' part is just the most sensible way to rule on what kind of damage you do. Complete Arcane states both parts specifically in the clarifications on weapon-like spells.

It's hardly Dragonborn (er.. probably you meant Dragonwrought.) cheese; it's just one of the many, many ways the game has to make attacks against Touch AC. It's also a very handy way to deal meaningful amounts of energy damage without being a full-on caster.

[Kelpstrand]

Ok, I'm sorry if I'm being daft, but what have you proven. This thread isn't about 'at low levels with minimum buffs, are wizards killable'. It's 'are high level wizards killable.'

Proving you can kill a low level wizard adds nothing more to the discussion than pointing that you can kill a blaster wizard who doesn't know what contigency and celerity are.

Umael: "Wizards are squishy, especially at low levels, you can kill them in their sleep."

Mostly Harmful: "Level 5 brings 10 hour Ropetricks."

Umael: "Maybe by ambushing them in market stalls."

Me: [in depth analysis describing the tactics of doing so and all the various protections, defenses, and cutoffs in doing so]

You: "You are useless and you post didn't have anything to do with the discussion!"

Guess who isn't the sole arbiter of the thread. You. What levels you can kill them and how is part of the thread.


A 5th level+ wizard could maintain light fortification from Heart of Air and Heart of Water (both Complete Mage), possibly grabbing the rest for straight immunity instead of going undead. Grab either metamagic school focus to lower extend to free or a rod of it to keep them up for most of the day.

Yeah, Already pointed that out in my first post too.


Four Acid Flasks is 4d6 acid damage total. Are you claiming you can SA with an acid flask and have the SA be acid damage? Because I'm having a hard time believing that is even RAW, much less that any DM would allow it. That's venerable Dragonborn Kobold level cheese right there.

What tyckspoon said. Attack role = sneak attack. Sneak attack damage type = damage type of attack making attack role. Acid Flask = Acid damage and Acid SA damage.

[HamHam]

What tyckspoon said. Attack role = sneak attack. Sneak attack damage type = damage type of attack making attack role. Acid Flask = Acid damage and Acid SA damage.

Well it's a good thing Resist Energy is a 2nd level spell that lasts 10 min per CL.

[Kilremgor]

A possible plan for non-caster Wizard slayer:

- Hard Part-
1) Be a somewhat gimped Rogue with lots of Intelligence and Charisma.
2) Pick all the sneak-attack-boosting feats when leveling (and appropriate equipment). Max out Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device (doable with Intelligence and Charisma).
3) Get to level 20+ with 25 Intelligence.
4) Pick up Polyglot feat at first opportunity.
5) Get 3 levels of Epic Infiltrator.
6) Buy two epic items: Stormbrand (get Greatsword proficiency for it by any means, thankfully that's not that hard, or just go with similar items granting Fly) and Ring of Sequestering. Get a Ring of Three Wishes and Scrolls of Anticipate Teleport and True Seeing, expendable on each kill.

Now, dealing with Wizards. The only requirement for them not to be natural (non-shapechanged) Undeads or other (natural) creatures that are immune to sneak attack, and not being Astral Projection fan (this kind has to be dealt with separately).

1) Use Epic Infiltrator's Mind Blank when doing dangerous aspects of your dirty work.
2) Find some non-caster friend of the target Wizard, or, if no non-caster friends, someone whom the Wizard can at least visit if asked.
3) Choose him as cover identity. Train for a week to get all bonuses.
4) Sap him somewhere stealthily. Force him to tell everything he knows. Kill him.
5) With his identity and knowledge, ask the Wizard to come to you with a Bluff-inspired convincing reason. Use Mind Blank beforehand. It is ok if divination immunity raises suspicion, you just have to get the wizard to check on you personally. Anyway, with all the skills, it should be perfectly possible to just convince the wizard to get somewhere at some time. Epic usage of Diplomacy and Bluff should help, as well as having appropriate cover identity/Disguise checks.
6) Once you're sure the Wizard will soon come to you, use scrolls of Anticipate Teleport and True Seeing not to fail the plan if Wizard appears at wrong place right in "your" house. If he comes into the house normally, it's better.
7) Use Ring of Three Wishes with the following wording, very specific to be believably within Wish powers:
"My single next melee attack will not be detected by [Wizard's name]'s Foresight."
"My single next melee attack will not trigger [Wizard's name] Contingency effects"
Leave the 3rd one for backup.
8) Hide. Wait.
9) When Wizard comes, if he does that by normal means and can be spotted from inside (Far Senses), everything is easy. If he teleports right to you, Anticipate Teleport will help.
10) In the round you have either way, activate Ring of Sequestering (now you're invisible and immune to any divination) and position yourself to be either behind the Wizard's back after teleport or after him coming in. The idea is, you should be out of his line of sight. Use invisibility, divination immunity and Hide/Move Silently to get into such a position where Wizard will pass. Stormbrand's flying ability will allow this no matter from where Wizard flies in or walks in. No matter how many detection spells Wizard packs, you have both mundane hiding, invisibility, immunity to divination and mind-affecting effects, true seeing, looking exactly and non-magically as his friend even if he sees you somehow (thus significantly reducing chances of immediate aggression, at least on instinctive level), and is warned at least a round beforehand.
11) Look at the coming Wizard once he gets there. Use last Wish to 'return [Wizard's name] to his/her original form for a single round once I start my single next melee attack' to remove Shapechange preventing being surprised or granting immunity to sneak attacks.
12) Wait until Wizard gets into the spot. Maneuver if necessary with all your hiding, invisibility, flying, cover, disguise etc. to get into melee range.
13) Stab.

.....
pick another cover identity later. Get reward from other non-gimped rogues that can earn it, but can't have that godly social skills and obfuscation techniques as you, so rely on you for dealing with Wizards :)

From the Wizard's PoV that may look as simple as:
1) An old friend invites me to tea... nothing more suspicious that usual.
2) Buff with standard precautions and abjurations.
3) Teleport few feet above the ground, near the entrance.
4) -ouch-

This tactic is IMO likely to kill most believably-paranoid (i.e., at the level of paranoia that one can sustain for prolonged time without being completely insane) Wizards.

[Keld Denar]

Gratz...you just used an epic character and a ton of weath and all you managed to do was kill his Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). You don't even get his gear...and now he's gonna spend the rest of your short life figuring out who you are and how to kill you back.

And if he wasn't Astrally Projected, then gratz...you just killed a wizard more than 5 levels below you...with an epic character...seriously...good job. Whats next, using Tiamat as a WMD?

[quick_comment]

This tactic is IMO likely to kill most believably-paranoid (i.e., at the level of paranoia that one can sustain for prolonged time without being completely insane) Wizards.

Most wizards however, are not reasonably paranoid. There is a reason that most powerful wizards tend to have low wis and cha. They are insane.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Agreed. Why would you even want to play a wizard, at any level, that is not unreasonably paranoid?

I mean even "friendly" wizards types like Merlin, Gandalf and Dumbledore are more than "reasonably" paranoid.

[Kilremgor]

Well, but at least such a character may make a living by killing Wizards for any assassin guild ;) That will greatly increase their profits when they offer wizardslaying service no one else has ;)

Also, the good thing is that non-paranoid wizards and many others can be eliminated without expending anything.

Stormbrand allows to fly up to casters, thus dealing with this obvious problem.
Huge social skills allow to become friend to most targets and attack when opportunity arises. Cover identity also helps with that.
Mind Blank ability allows to be immune to divination/mind-affecting spells when it matters.
Ring of Sequestering allows to either sneak attack targets or escape dire situations.

So a lot of kills can be done this way. And for hard ones, Three Wishes/scrolls should help.

It's obvious that RPG-wise such a character is rare, but possible. An always-smiling, kind person that makes a lot of friends and then kills target at the lest expected moment while invisible and mind-affecting/divination-proof. A special assassin for high-value targets :)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Gratz...you just used an epic character and a ton of weath and all you managed to do was kill his Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). You don't even get his gear...and now he's gonna spend the rest of your short life figuring out who you are and how to kill you back.

And if he wasn't Astrally Projected, then gratz...you just killed a wizard more than 5 levels below you...with an epic character...seriously...good job. Whats next, using Tiamat as a WMD?

Also, the Heart of X line means that you're screwed.

[Kilremgor]

Gratz...you just used an epic character and a ton of weath and all you managed to do was kill his Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). You don't even get his gear...and now he's gonna spend the rest of your short life figuring out who you are and how to kill you back.

And if he wasn't Astrally Projected, then gratz...you just killed a wizard more than 5 levels below you...with an epic character...seriously...good job. Whats next, using Tiamat as a WMD?

Astral Projection is not actually 'that' problematic.
If wizard lives, all he knows is that someone immune to divination/mind-affecting spells disguised himself as his friend and killed a projection. It will be hard to guess the true identity of the killer (which should be hidden from anyone), even if using Contact Other Plane and similar means.

[Lamech]

Gratz...you just used an epic character and a ton of weath and all you managed to do was kill his Astral Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm). You don't even get his gear...and now he's gonna spend the rest of your short life figuring out who you are and how to kill you back.

And if he wasn't Astrally Projected, then gratz...you just killed a wizard more than 5 levels below you...with an epic character...seriously...good job. Whats next, using Tiamat as a WMD?
Umm... Astral Projection creates new gear... I don't recall anything about it disappearing with Astral Projection. (Nor do I recall anything specifying what the gear is.) More importantly I don't recall anything about the body disappearing or anything in soul bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulbind.htm) about the target being not alive. (And the soul is most certainly not in the body as dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) means the soul is gone.) Which makes the wizard soulless. A.K.A. not able to do anything. See deck of many things Void for more info.

Or you could just stab the wizard with that soul eating metal. That does wonders. Also if your breaking out a ring of wishes, and using wishes that are not listed just teleport a Sphere of Annilation to the wizard and call it a day.

[Kelpstrand]

Well it's a good thing Resist Energy is a 2nd level spell that lasts 10 min per CL.

So if you spend every single level 2 spell you have you can be protected from Acid for 5 hours a day. In the mean time, you just blew 5 spells as a level 5 Wizard to walk around protected from Acid and only Acid in the middle of a city like an idiot.

And then the Rogue used X sub 2, Alchemist Flasks. Or X sub 3, daggers. Or X sub anything else.

Have you ever played a Wizard ever? Have you ever spent all your second level spells on protections while you walk around a city? Why would you do that? What possible purpose could it serve to blow every spell you have protecting yourself in a safe place? What do you do in combat after blowing Prot from Arrows, Greater Mage Armor, Flase Life, something that gives Natural Armor, and Resist Energy X5?

You have like, maybe 3 spells left outside level 1.

I've played a lot of low level Wizards. You know what I did. I won initiative and cast glitterdust. It's much easier on my spell slots.

[Milskidasith]

Also, this assumes that the caster would not immediately destroy the friend for being immune to divination. Your idea would only kill a non astrally projected, nonbuffed, and most importantly, trusting wizard. A reasonably paranoid wizard at epic levels would question why his friend suddenly became immune to divinations, and wouldn't be stupid enough to check it out. An unreasonably paranoid/evil one would kill him.

[Yukitsu]

Umm... Astral Projection creates new gear... I don't recall anything about it disappearing with Astral Projection. (Nor do I recall anything specifying what the gear is.) More importantly I don't recall anything about the body disappearing or anything in soul bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulbind.htm) about the target being not alive. (And the soul is most certainly not in the body as dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead) means the soul is gone.) Which makes the wizard soulless. A.K.A. not able to do anything. See deck of many things Void for more info.

Or you could just stab the wizard with that soul eating metal. That does wonders. Also if your breaking out a ring of wishes, and using wishes that are not listed just teleport a Sphere of Annilation to the wizard and call it a day.

All of that is largely irrelevant, as your astral projections aren't living copies of the wizard, and they don't have real gear. When you defeat a projection, you haven't killed him, and you don't get to steal his soul.

As well, you can't get artifacts with wishes.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Umm... Astral Projection creates new gear... I don't recall anything about it disappearing with Astral Projection.

For the love of Boccob, do not have the gear persist. It means the wizard can get a free copy of everything he owns by casting and dismissing one 9th level spell.

[HamHam]

So if you spend every single level 2 spell you have you can be protected from Acid for 5 hours a day.

Why do you need 5 hours? A single extended casting is just over an hour and a half, which should be more than enough time to get your shopping done.

And if you aren't expecting to have to kill anything today, why wouldn't you blow all your spells on protective buffs just in case?

[Kilremgor]

Anyway, I think that it's hard to make non-caster character more capable against Wizards (either trying to kill them or survive them) than going something like Rogue 20 / Epic Infiltrator 3+ with Ring of Sequestering. Though for adventuring purposes such a character won't be effective at all, for dealing with wizards this offers:
- powerful sneak attacks (bonuses of both classes stack) and associated bonuses/abilities to make use of them - that makes one-hit-kill of a usual d4 Wizard with moderate Con possible. And one-hit-kill is pretty much a requirement.
- constant divination immunity (Mind Blank has 24h duration, can be used daily). Obviously that's a requirement too.
- Social skills that allow one to create a situation when one can approach target Wizard in the first place / become his friend / disguise as someone else / bluff him into your trap / etc.
- Cover identity ability that means you're not risking your 'own' persona by assassinations and especially failed killings (drop a cover identity in that case and choose another one).
- Ring of Sequestering provides all-powerful invisibility that, arguably, cannot be negated by True Seeing (making one immune to detection by divinations and being higher level spell than True Seeing), thus allowing sneak attacks and escaping. And is invisible.
- Use Magic Device should allow usage of useful items and scrolls to negate protections.

Another option is perhaps converting Spymaster to 3.5.

Or, be a Rogue+Epic Infiltrator, get someone to Mindrape you to truly believe you're target Wizard's fan, befriend him while open to divinations, than after some time passes or trigger happens remember your true purpose, buff with Mind Blank, activate your invisible ring and backstab.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Anyway, I think that it's hard to make non-caster character more capable against Wizards (either trying to kill them or survive them) than going something like Rogue 20 / Epic Infiltrator 3+ with Ring of Sequestering. Though for adventuring purposes such a character won't be effective at all, for dealing with wizards this offers:
- powerful sneak attacks (bonuses of both classes stack) and associated bonuses/abilities to make use of them - that makes one-hit-kill of a usual d4 Wizard with moderate Con possible. And one-hit-kill is pretty much a requirement.
- constant divination immunity (Mind Blank has 24h duration, can be used daily). Obviously that's a requirement too.
- Social skills that allow one to create a situation when one can approach target Wizard in the first place / become his friend / disguise as someone else / bluff him into your trap / etc.
- Cover identity ability that means you're not risking your 'own' persona by assassinations and especially failed killings (drop a cover identity in that case and choose another one).
- Ring of Sequestering provides all-powerful invisibility that, arguably, cannot be negated by True Seeing (making one immune to detection by divinations and being higher level spell than True Seeing), thus allowing sneak attacks and escaping. And is invisible.
- Use Magic Device should allow usage of useful items and scrolls to negate protections.

Another option is perhaps converting Spymaster to 3.5.

Or, be a Rogue+Epic Infiltrator, get someone to Mindrape you to truly believe you're target Wizard's fan, befriend him while open to divinations, than after some time passes or trigger happens remember your true purpose, buff with Mind Blank, activate your invisible ring and backstab.

How do you get around Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire,a contingency that triggers when someone makes an attack against the wizard, and/or Foresight and Celerity?

[Milskidasith]

How do you get around Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire,a contingency that triggers when someone makes an attack against the wizard, and/or Foresight and Celerity?

More importantly, how do you get a wizard to befriend somebody who's class is completely optimized to backstab him and provides no tangible benefits otherwise?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, there is the benefit of rogues doing it from behind...

[Milskidasith]

Well, there is the benefit of rogues doing it from behind...

I thought you were the guy who hated the bad jokes. :smalltongue: But even with that, it would be a lot easier to permanently dominate the rogue or mindrape her instead of using something as unreliable as "friendship."

[Kilremgor]

How do you get around Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire,a contingency that triggers when someone makes an attack against the wizard, and/or Foresight and Celerity?
In epic levels, I think it's quite feasible to have scroll of MDJ and be able to use it with UMD for such a build (Int 25 guaranteed, so no ability check needed for MDJ, and decipher DC isn't hard to beat). Of course, that means using another wizard's services, but after all it's anyway required to get the gear in the first place.
Or, abusing Wish to overcome specific protections (depends on DM ruling, but since Wish does technically allow non-listed effects, and requesting 'one specific spell of specific target to be suppressed for single melee attack' is not *that* powerful, and with Int 25+ character should have a reasonable IC wording to be believable).

It will be wizard's turn after the scroll, but the catch is, how he will detect someone with Divination immunity / hiding with decent Hide check / invisible (arguably not penetrable by TS).

Added: As for befriending - cover identity allows to disguise yourself as another class (without skills, feats etc. just pretend that you are one).

So wizard doesn't meet epic-level rogue, he thinks (Bluff) that's a 12-15 level Fighter (well, rogue+EI can simulate a 5-10+ levels lower Fighter with Disguise, given that EI is proficient with all armor and shields) fan of him that will readily die as meatshield.

[Milskidasith]

In epic levels, I think it's quite feasible to have scroll of MDJ and be able to use it with UMD for such a build (Int 25 guaranteed, so no ability check needed for MDJ, and decipher DC isn't hard to beat). Of course, that means using another wizard's services, but after all it's anyway required to get the gear in the first place.
Or, abusing Wish to overcome specific protections (depends on DM ruling, but since Wish does technically allow non-listed effects, and requesting 'one specific spell of specific target to be suppressed for single melee attack' is not *that* powerful, and with Int 25+ character should have a reasonable IC wording to be believable).

It will be wizard's turn after the scroll, but the catch is, how he will detect someone with Divination immunity / hiding with decent Hide check / invisible (arguably not penetrable by TS).

Would he need too? I mean, even if we assume he befriends the rogue/doesn't immediately kill his disguised and dead friend who is now immune to mind altering effects, or if they got away with mindraping the disguised rogue to think he is the friend (assuming the friend wasn't also mindraped with "snargleflib" hidden somewhere in his mind as a signature that he hadn't been tampered with by somebody else), then why would the wizard even need to fight? If he lived through one round, which is possible with buffs running, he could just greater teleport away and then mind blank himself.

[Kelpstrand]

Also, anything past Epic a level 21 Wizard can just give themselves immunity to MD, as well as slapping large instantaneous bonuses to their Flat Footed Touch AC. And by large, I mean like +whatever number the Wizard wants.

Now if you just flat ban epic spellcasting, then he'll just start taking auto quicken three times, starting with 1-6 at level 21, which means he has a swift action teleport.

[Keld Denar]

Who would actually consent to be mind raped? I mean...there is a reason that spell has an [Evil] descriptor. It wipes EVERYTHING except what your raper wants you to know. That just...shudder...

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Who would actually consent to be mind raped?Just don't stand between me and my memories, pal.

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTY4OTE2OTYwMF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwODA2NzY2._V1._ SX485_SY360_.jpg

[Arakune]

Who would actually consent to be mind raped? I mean...there is a reason that spell has an [Evil] descriptor. It wipes EVERYTHING except what your raper wants you to know. That just...shudder...

They don't, that's the beauty of it.

[Milskidasith]

Who would actually consent to be mind raped? I mean...there is a reason that spell has an [Evil] descriptor. It wipes EVERYTHING except what your raper wants you to know. That just...shudder...

Somebody who wants go get paid, has every reason to trust the person paying them. Because of the way this particular mind rape was presented, they would gain all their original memories on a trigger so they could assassinate the wizard; if the guy wanted to mind rape them for kicks, it would be a lot harder and a lot more deadly.

Of course, you could use the neutral or good versions of the spells, which operate almost exactly the same but don't have a descriptor. The amnesia spell (I know it's name has something else besides amnesia) would work just as well.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

In epic levels, I think it's quite feasible to have scroll of MDJ and be able to use it with UMD for such a build (Int 25 guaranteed, so no ability check needed for MDJ, and decipher DC isn't hard to beat). Of course, that means using another wizard's services, but after all it's anyway required to get the gear in the first place.
Or, abusing Wish to overcome specific protections (depends on DM ruling, but since Wish does technically allow non-listed effects, and requesting 'one specific spell of specific target to be suppressed for single melee attack' is not *that* powerful, and with Int 25+ character should have a reasonable IC wording to be believable).

It will be wizard's turn after the scroll, but the catch is, how he will detect someone with Divination immunity / hiding with decent Hide check / invisible (arguably not penetrable by TS).


1. Teleport out.

2. Arcane Sight/Greater Arcane Sight

3. Make you come to him (many spells do this)

[Eldritch_Ent]

"Some people think this is paranoia, but it isn't. Paranoids only think everyone is out to get them. Wizards know it."

And if this thread is any indication, well..


Basically, what I've come away from this thread with, is that it takes ridiculous amounts of preperation to kill someone of the Wizard class, (When really, all classes should have a 50/50 chance of killing an equal-wbl equal-level character of another class, not counting classes made to specifically kill another kind of class..). It might be posible to do so, but that doesn't mean Wizard's aren't fundamentally the most powerful class of them all.

If you want a better balanced game, use TOB and Warlocks.

[HamHam]

If you want a better balanced game, use TOB and Warlocks.

What? Warlocks are a whole tier under all the ToB classes.

[Eldritch_Ent]

What? Warlocks are a whole tier under all the ToB classes.

I didn't say it was perfectly balanced, but it's certainly more so than core's "Fighters VS Wizards" discrepancies...

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Basically, what I've come away from this thread with, is that it takes ridiculous amounts of preperation to kill someone of the Wizard class

I'll keep that in mind next time I meet someone who is a wizard.

For wizard characters in story or in game, they are easy enough to kill. It's also quite doable in arena type game up to a certain, relatively high level then all the contigency things come into play. As for killing them is character optimization thought exercises, well no, that's near to impossible.

What to take away is not that the wizard class per se (or any of the tier 1 or tier 2 spell casters) is unbalanced but that the open ended nature of the spell casting system (magical, psionic, maneuvers, etc) will eventually over-shadow well defined combat mechanics.

Now from a game design point of view there are at least two ways to fix that. Give an open ended mechanic to all characters or eliminate the open ended mechanics for all characters (for ex as in 4e).



When really, all classes should have a 50/50 chance of killing an equal-wbl equal-level character of another class

If D&D was game where 1-on-1 PvP was the norm. In an RPG, the classes have to be balanced for fun of roleplay. And though not perfect, D&D in its all incarnations has generally achieved that.

[Kilremgor]

Programmed Amnesia could be used too I guess, but has larger chance of being detected. It's description, IIRC, is "You can selectively destroy, alter, or implant memories in the target creature as you see fit.", but it's not instantaneous (permanent) so it can be detected and dispelled.

As for remembering something on trigger, that can be easily done even without implying directly that functionality in the spell, for example, using the following:
give the spell's target small parchment to write the assassination plan (and Mindrape idea) on using some encryption that you (or target) invented and target knows.
When Mindraping, remove all memories about the plan (keep the encryption ones), instead adding new false ones relevant to approaching to the target / befriending it, and add a memory like: 'There is a parchment with a last letter from my deceased wife that is very personal to me; we invented our own cipher to keep those letters from eyes of others. I don't show it to anyone else or read it... brings back sad memories. But I promised to never forget about her, so once a year... at [specified date] I read it again.'

To find out about that combo, not only should the target be extremely paranoid, not only fully reading minds of any potential friends (and having abilities to do so), but also unnaturally arrogant and able to notice slightest details. Which is very rare.

When [specified date] comes, chosen so there is ample time to reach target and prove loyalty, the parchment is read using Decipher script... and well.

Alternatively, it may be argued that it is possible to implant (or suppress existing) memories in a way that makes subject remember them only when something relevant happens, like 'I remember I had a long talk with someone... but forgot what it was all about. It was just a usual talk in the beginning, until he said some ancient proverb and got serious. If I could've heard that proverb again, probably I could've remembered what we talked about.' Well usage is again obvious.

[Saph]

"Some people think this is paranoia, but it isn't. Paranoids only think everyone is out to get them. Wizards know it."

And if this thread is any indication, well..


Basically, what I've come away from this thread with, is that it takes ridiculous amounts of preperation to kill someone of the Wizard class.

This is why these threads annoy me a bit, honestly. Do you have any idea how many Wizards I've seen killed over my years of playing, with no preparation whatsoever?

People on these forums have a very unhealthy "fortress mentality" when it comes to Wizards. They're constantly trying to establish how a Wizard can be immune to OMGEVERYTHING. What are the other four-five people at the table doing while the Wizard is running around from city to city trying to plug every possible hole in his defences? Playing Magic: the Gathering? From the sound of some of the posters here, they'd have time to play a whole tournament and then fit in a few rounds of Soul Calibur as well.

And you really need your collective heads examined if you think you can get away with things like the Astral Projection exploit. I know this is a fantasy game, but there's fantasy, and then there's fantasy. :P

- Saph

[BobVosh]

What to take away is not that the wizard class per se (or any of the tier 1 or tier 2 spell casters) is unbalanced but that the open ended nature of the spell casting system (magical, psionic, maneuvers, etc) will eventually over-shadow well defined combat mechanics.

Well. That is thier class. Lowest skill points, lowest hit dice, 4 feats and a familiar. +spell casting. Take a wizard's feats + familiar and you barely nerfed him, to the point he really doesn't care except for adrupt jaunt being gone.


If D&D was game where 1-on-1 PvP was the norm. In an RPG, the classes have to be balanced for fun of roleplay. And though not perfect, D&D in its all incarnations has generally achieved that.

4ed. I will try to avoid making this "4ed isn't fun," but it was most certainly balanced around class powers and not roleplay. To the point that the fluff is almost completely nonexistant.

[AstralFire]

This is why these threads annoy me a bit, honestly. Do you have any idea how many Wizards I've seen killed over my years of playing, with no preparation whatsoever?

People on these forums have a very unhealthy "fortress mentality" when it comes to Wizards. They're constantly trying to establish how a Wizard can be immune to OMGEVERYTHING. What are the other four-five people at the table doing while the Wizard is running around from city to city trying to plug every possible hole in his defences? Playing Magic: the Gathering? From the sound of some of the posters here, they'd have time to play a whole tournament and then fit in a few rounds of Soul Calibur as well.

And you really need your collective heads examined if you think you can get away with things like the Astral Projection exploit. I know this is a fantasy game, but there's fantasy, and then there's fantasy. :P

- Saph

Agreed that people get too wrapped up in this. I engage in these topics because I... get bored. But while the Wizard is very, very strong in the right hands, people concern themselves too much with its abilities, and I do think engaging in debates about RAW beyond a certain degree is silly when discussing practical power. I could never, with a straight face, do half of the tricks discussed. The Social Contract which I think every group should have in place ultimately cuts out the worst abuses, and the problem of a player being too weak or feeling useless seems to be a bigger concern of 3E balance than one being too strong.

There is, however, a degree of enjoyment I (and others) gain from just seeing what you can do with crazy strict legalese interpretations of the rules.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Well. That is thier class. Lowest skill points, lowest hit dice, 4 feats and a familiar. +spell casting. Take a wizard's feats + familiar and you barely nerfed him, to the point he really doesn't care except for adrupt jaunt being gone.

What I meant is that the combat system (before ToB) is well defined: you take actions, your opponent takes actions, actions are resolved.

The magic system (before 4e) was "open" and not well defined. For ex, it could "interrupt" the combat system with an effect like Contigency. Or it could "shortcut" the combat system with a save or die. Or if could "overpower" the combat system by giving the magic user huge bonuses. Or it "circumvent" the combat system by doing something completely outside the combat system. For ex, a wizard can scry on the fighter and thus be forewarned before combat takes place.



4ed. I will try to avoid making this "4ed isn't fun," but it was most certainly balanced around class powers and not roleplay. To the point that the fluff is almost completely nonexistant.
Not fun for you does not mean not fun for someone else. Objectively, it can be said the every version of D&D has been very successful at providing the market with a fun game despite the mechanics in each version. For ex, I liked OD&D and 1e. 2e I didn't really like. 3e I liked a lot. 4e not so much. But everyone has their own preferences.

[Eldritch_Ent]

People on these forums have a very unhealthy "fortress mentality" when it comes to Wizards. They're constantly trying to establish how a Wizard can be immune to OMGEVERYTHING. What are the other four-five people at the table doing while the Wizard is running around from city to city trying to plug every possible hole in his defences?

To be fair, the other people have a very unhealthy "Pirate mentality" when it comes to Wizards. They're constantly trying to establish how a wizard can be omg KILLEDBYANYTHING. What are the other four-five people at the table doing while the Rogue is running around from city to city trying to exploit every possible hole in the wizard's defenses?

... Basically, my question is, can't we all just get along? All this class vs class PVP isn't really getting us anywhere.

[AstralFire]

... Basically, my question is, can't we all just get along?

Hah. You've activated my trap card (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6622393&postcount=58).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hah. You've activated my trap card (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6622393&postcount=58).

Friendship is the strongest thing ever. It's even more powerful than Chuck Norris.

[BobVosh]

Not fun for you does not mean not fun for someone else. Objectively, it can be said the every version of D&D has been very successful at providing the market with a fun game despite the mechanics in each version. For ex, I liked OD&D and 1e. 2e I didn't really like. 3e I liked a lot. 4e not so much. But everyone has their own preferences.

Hence why I said I was trying to avoid it. Humorously I agree with you on which editions rocked.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Basically, my question is, can't we all just get along?
At the risk of encouraging divisiveness, what's wrong with a bunch of D&D geeks having a long winded and meaningless debate about imagined imaginary characters? I mean as long as they are having fun like AstralFire said and it doesn't get out of hand and people start flaming or making inappropriate comments about necrophilia and such...

[tyckspoon]

Hah. You've activated my trap card (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6622393&postcount=58).

I love you so much right now.

[Eldritch_Ent]

At the risk of encouraging divisiveness, what's wrong with a bunch of D&D geeks having a long winded and meaningless debate about imagined imaginary characters? I mean as long as they are having fun like AstralFire said and it doesn't get out of hand and people start flaming or making inappropriate comments about necrophilia and such...

Nothing really, I'm just saying I'm willing to that the wizard's are being defensive so long as the anti-wizards agree that they're being attacksive to an equal degree. Once we recognize that I'm more than willing to go back to debating just how and why Wizard's can crush you and all you hold dear.:smalltongue:

[quick_comment]

In epic levels, I think it's quite feasible to have scroll of MDJ and be able to use it with UMD for such a build (Int 25 guaranteed, so no ability check needed for MDJ, and decipher DC isn't hard to beat). Of course, that means using another wizard's services, but after all it's anyway required to get the gear in the first place.
Or, abusing Wish to overcome specific protections (depends on DM ruling, but since Wish does technically allow non-listed effects, and requesting 'one specific spell of specific target to be suppressed for single melee attack' is not *that* powerful, and with Int 25+ character should have a reasonable IC wording to be believable).

It will be wizard's turn after the scroll, but the catch is, how he will detect someone with Divination immunity / hiding with decent Hide check / invisible (arguably not penetrable by TS).

Added: As for befriending - cover identity allows to disguise yourself as another class (without skills, feats etc. just pretend that you are one).

So wizard doesn't meet epic-level rogue, he thinks (Bluff) that's a 12-15 level Fighter (well, rogue+EI can simulate a 5-10+ levels lower Fighter with Disguise, given that EI is proficient with all armor and shields) fan of him that will readily die as meatshield.

At epic levels the wizard has a ward vs MDJ and a ward vs wish that shut them both down utterly and entirely.

[Saph]

Nothing really, I'm just saying I'm willing to that the wizard's are being defensive so long as the anti-wizards agree that they're being attacksive to an equal degree. Once we recognize that I'm more than willing to go back to debating just how and why Wizard's can crush you and all you hold dear.:smalltongue:

This attitude is exactly why the "anti-wizards" are being "attacksive". No-one tries to pretend that a Rogue or a Fighter is invulnerable. But for some reason a substantial fraction of Wizard fans keep on trying to prove that Wizards are. Just look at the title of the thread! If you constantly boast that your UberBuild X is invulnerable then of course people are going to take it as a challenge. What do you expect?

- Saph

[Shosuro Ishii]

At epic levels the wizard has a ward vs MDJ and a ward vs wish that shut them both down utterly and entirely.

At epic levels the wizard has mindblanked himself, bought a ring of sustinance and is 5000 feet underground on his own personal demi-plane research the needed epic magic to destory anything that could ever be a remote threat to him.

No matter what you do at epic levels, a caster can trump it.

[BobVosh]

This attitude is exactly why the "anti-wizards" are being "attacksive". No-one tries to pretend that a Rogue or a Fighter is invulnerable. But for some reason a substantial fraction of Wizard fans keep on trying to prove that Wizards are. Just look at the title of the thread! If you constantly boast that your UberBuild X is invulnerable then of course people are going to take it as a challenge. What do you expect?

- Saph
{Scrubbed}

[HamHam]

This attitude is exactly why the "anti-wizards" are being "attacksive". No-one tries to pretend that a Rogue or a Fighter is invulnerable. But for some reason a substantial fraction of Wizard fans keep on trying to prove that Wizards are.

Because within the parameters of appropriate CR encounters, they practically are. Wizards and CoDzilla laugh at the Monster Manual. You need to start making up NPCs, and probably casting NPCs, to pose any real sort of threat.

This is not true of any other class.

[Saph]

{Scrubbed}

:smalltongue:

The reason the whole thing annoys me was because the original Wizard Guide on these forums - you know, the way it all started - emphasised teamwork. The idea was "You don't try to blast things to death, you use your spells to set things up so that the rest of the party can easily win." And that's good advice - it works.

But somewhere along the line, the emphasis changed from "Wizards are great if you play them as part of a team" to "Wizards are so great they don't need a team" and now we have these endless arguments with one side devising an utterly paranoid wizard whose entire life revolves around protecting himself and the other side creating fanatical assassins who spend their entire existence trying to kill him. It's funny as long as it's only a thought experiment, but the problem is that a lot of people are now taking this stuff seriously.

- Saph

[Pharaoh's Fist]

This attitude is exactly why the "anti-wizards" are being "attacksive". No-one tries to pretend that a Rogue or a Fighter is invulnerable.

Monks, however... :smallwink:

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here. It helps if you discuss the issue itself rather than the people behind the post and whatever attributes you ascribe to them.

[AstralFire]

I think Bob was making a joke, since Saph didn't take offense to it and Bob's usually pretty rational.

[Roland St. Jude]

I think Bob was making a joke, since Saph didn't take offense to it and Bob's usually pretty rational.

Sheriff: So I gathered. There isn't really a joke defense here, though. You and I may call each other names all the time and be fine with it between the two of us, but it creates an atmosphere we don't want here. It also requires the moderators to judge whether something is meant in jest, taken in jest, etc. And which of these should the determination turn on? Ugh.

If it had just been about that, by the way, I wouldn't have posted a nudge to the whole thread.

[Eldritch_Ent]

This attitude is exactly why the "anti-wizards" are being "attacksive". No-one tries to pretend that a Rogue or a Fighter is invulnerable. But for some reason a substantial fraction of Wizard fans keep on trying to prove that Wizards are. Just look at the title of the thread! If you constantly boast that your UberBuild X is invulnerable then of course people are going to take it as a challenge. What do you expect?

- Saph

Point taken, although yeah, as a previous poster stated this has been taken with monks...

However, can we at least agree that Wizard's have the potential to be far more brokenly powerful than any other base class?

[AstralFire]

Fair enough. :smallsmile:

[Saph]

Monks, however... :smallwink:

Now that's just cruel.

Anyway . . . whoops, didn't expect that to happen. I did take it as a joke, sorry that it caused Roland to get involved.


However, can we at least agree that Wizard's have the potential to be far more brokenly powerful than any other base class?

Oh, definitely. The only rivals are the Artificer and Archivist. It's just that they also have the potential to be the weakest if played badly. If you rate classes on a 1-10 scale, a really well played wizard clocks in at about 10 and a really badly played one at about 1.

- Saph

[BobVosh]

Sheriff: So I gathered. There isn't really a joke defense here, though. You and I may call each other names all the time and be fine with it between the two of us, but it creates an atmosphere we don't want here. It also requires the moderators to judge whether something is meant in jest, taken in jest, etc. And which of these should the determination turn on? Ugh.

If it had just been about that, by the way, I wouldn't have posted a nudge to the whole thread.

Meh, I shoulda known better. Sorry.


I think Bob was making a joke, since Saph didn't take offense to it and Bob's usually pretty rational.

Rational? How unique of an accusation.

And I'm glad I'm not the guy to make the monk joke. I tried real hard for that.

Can we celebrate my first scrubbed post?

[Roderick_BR]

I agree with awa.
I personally don't find Wizards as broken and invincible as claimed.

Even seriously min/maxing and optimising a wizard and getting as many spells as I can wrangle out of a DM I am often over-shadowed by the other players, particularly if we have a real test of endurance.

As a DM I've found Wizards exceptionally easy to nerf just by not allowed a few key spells. I have far more trouble keep psions in line than Wizards.
If wizards were not overpowered/unbeatable, you wouldn't need to nerf the wizard or ban spells...

[Kelpstrand]

And you really need your collective heads examined if you think you can get away with things like the Astral Projection exploit. I know this is a fantasy game, but there's fantasy, and then there's fantasy.

I wouldn't say that. Look at what AP actually does, it means instead of dieing they have to cast a 9th level spell again and come back, but they are always weaker, since MD and dispel magic kill them.

So either they are using up 9th level slots, to be weaker but not have to be True Resed, or when they die they have to wait a day.

What's so bad about that? Personally, as a DM, I'd sign on the dotted line for anything that allows me to skip the hassle of Raise Deads that shouldn't result in lower level characters and shouldn't damage WBL.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

People, I've never nerfed wizards in my games, except for preventing ridiculous things like Pun-Pun, Chain-Gate and the like. And even then, I've done it IC via monster actions rather than rule 0.

Guess what? No wizard has managed to be overpowered in my games so far.

[Kelpstrand]

People, I've never nerfed wizards in my games, except for preventing ridiculous things like Pun-Pun, Chain-Gate and the like. And even then, I've done it IC via monster actions rather than rule 0.

Guess what? No wizard has managed to be overpowered in my games so far.

So you've never banned Incantatrix is made monsters specialized anti casters who spend half their feats on Spell Resistance and have an SR higher than their AC?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

No, I've not banned incantatrix except for games that are specifically for roleplaying, not combat.
(The "test your wizard" challenge doesn't count; it is meant to test wizards with what's allowed under a reasonable DM and variant settings.)

As for monsters, half their feats are anti-casting. The other half are anti-melee and more than half their items are anti-melee. Equal optimisation. If I optimised them solely as anti-casting, wizards would be utterly useless. (ever seen a dragon with 50+ SR that is immune to orbs?)

[Kelpstrand]

No, I've not banned incantatrix except for games that are specifically for roleplaying, not combat.

Then why is it banned in your Wizard challenge? Didn't know that was about roleplay.


As for monsters, half their feats are anti-casting. The other half are anti-melee and more than half their items are anti-melee. Equal optimisation. If I optimised them solely as anti-casting, wizards would be utterly useless. (ever seen a dragon with 50+ SR that is immune to orbs?)

So no offensive feats at all? Because those would not be anti melee. And yes, I have seen a Dragon with SR 50 (never immunity from Orbs unless that was by spell, in which case yes). I wouldn't specifically suggested such a one sided creature if I hadn't seen one in action, and of course, seen you suggest using Awaken Spell Resistance multiple times as an example of Wizards not being too powerful.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6596890&postcount=3

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6581675&postcount=92

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6614412&postcount=6

That's the threads about Wizards on the first page. I can only imagine how many times you have suggested or used such monsters in your life.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The reason for banning stuff in my Wizard challenge has been edited in in my previous post but it bears repeating; the challenge is for a wizard that is supposed to be played in an actual game. Most DMs don't allow incantatrix. Many games are not campaign world -specific either. Hence the ban.

And dragons, demons and the like don't need more offence; they can kill most people in one full attack. Here's how I optimise monsters;
1) Increase SR to levels where wizard has to actually work to penetrate it.
2) A fast flyer with reach gets flyby attack and speed improvements. Even a flying meleer will almost never be able to attack him.
3) Dragons and fiends with innate sorcery get wings of cover spell. Immediate action 2nd level sorceror-only spell that negates 1 attack or single-target spell. Takes care of either uberchargers or really nasty stuff like orbs, uber-rays and reach shivering touch 1/round.
4) Find an immunity to nonmagical damage. Incorporeality is the first choice; half damage from most sources, immune to all nonmagical attacks, get an AC bonus equal to CHA modifier. Starmantle is the second choice; nonmagical weapons and projectiles shatter, half damage from other weapon attacks. Incidentally, orbs are nonmagical. :smallamused:
5) If dragon, add clinging breath, max breath and enlarge breath. By giving up your breath for 1 hour, you can make its single use 5 miles long, it deals max damage and it deals half max damage for every round for the following 10 minutes. Then choose the adventurers/army/city/small country you wanna nuke. :smalltongue:
6) If outsider, Supernatural Transformation for some SLAs, especially if you have some nasty ones. DC inscreases, SR and magic immunity no longer apply.
7) The rest of the feats (if any are left) should be whatever you want. Personally, I am partial to attrition play so Immortal Hero, Damage Reduction, Roll with It, Thick Skin, save increases and the like are good.

[Kelpstrand]

3) Dragons and fiends with innate sorcery get wings of cover spell. Immediate action 2nd level sorceror-only spell that negates 1 attack or single-target spell. Takes care of either uberchargers or really nasty stuff like orbs, uber-rays and reach shivering touch 1/round.

Actually, doesn't help much against uber rays and Orbs, because they usually come in Twinned Split form, and you can only block 1/2 to 1/4th of them. Plus quicken of course. Same for a Pouncing charge.


4) Find an immunity to nonmagical damage. Incorporeality is the first choice; half damage from most sources, immune to all nonmagical attacks, get an AC bonus equal to CHA modifier. Starmantle is the second choice; nonmagical weapons and projectiles shatter, half damage from other weapon attacks. Incidentally, orbs are nonmagical.

"Incorporeal creatures can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, by magic weapons, or by spells, spell-like effects, or supernatural effects."

Harmed by spells.

And Starmantle Cloak only prevents damage from weapons, not spells, IE not orbs.

Also, what universe do you live in that stuff in campaign settings can't be used in others? Is there some rule that you can't be focused on shadow casting or on metamagic in Greyhawk? I've never seen it.

Now if you want to ban Incantatrix because it is too powerful to be allowed under most circumstances, that's different, but you better apply the same standard to the DMM Persist Cleric who the Wizard has to compete with.

Edit: I'll also note that step one is to optimize against casters, step 2 is against only the weak kinds of melee, step 3 is against casters more than melee, step 4 is casters, step 5 is commoners and experts, step 6 is casters, step 7 is melee.

So. Yeah. Not focusing on optimizing against casters at all.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic.

Orbs, as instantaneous conjuration; creation spells, are nonmagical objects. They don't go away in an AMF. They are not subject to magic immunity. They are not subject to globe of invulnerability or even epic wards against magic.
However, they don't affect inforporeal opponents (except for Orb of Force). They are destroyed by Starmantle. They can't pass through an open forcecage or other very small openings like spells can. They are stopped by Solid Fog and Wind Wall, unless you rule that they are big enough and heavy enough to count as boulders.


A split ray doesn't work on orbs. Twin does-but Wings of Cover can also be twinned.


You can only do pouncing charge (or any charge) in a straight line and only if the target is within charging range. The dragon that flyby-attacks with doubled speed isn't.

[Kelpstrand]

A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates (subject to the limits noted above). If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic.

Orbs, as instantaneous conjuration; creation spells, are nonmagical objects. They don't go away in an AMF. They are not subject to magic immunity. They are not subject to globe of invulnerability or even epic wards against magic.
However, they don't affect inforporeal opponents (except for Orb of Force). They are destroyed by Starmantle. They can't pass through an open forcecage or other very small openings like spells can. They are stopped by Solid Fog and Wind Wall, unless you rule that they are big enough and heavy enough to count as boulders.

I stand corrected on Incorporeality, however, Forcecage holes are big enough to shoot arrows through, and assumably big enough to throw acid through. Why Acid would be bigger than arrows I have no idea.

However, Starmantle cloak works on non magical weapons. Acid is not a weapon, just like fire is not a weapon. If I cast Caustic Smoke, and then Fireball, the part where someone inside the smoke would be lit on fire is not blocked by starmantle, because it is not a weapon.

Similarly, someone wearing a Starmantle Cloak cannot jump into non magical lava, declare lava to be a weapon, and then destroy the lava.


A split ray doesn't work on orbs. Twin does-but Wings of Cover can also be twinned.

I know that Split ray does not work on Orbs, you said Orbs and Uber Rays. Uber rays are often split.

And adding another feat that you need and using a sixth level slot is a bigger deal. Especially since it still doesn't protect against more than one attack, maybe two if you really want to stretch the interpretation.


You can only do pouncing charge (or any charge) in a straight line and only if the target is within charging range. The dragon that flyby-attacks with doubled speed isn't.

Only if the flyby attack Dragon never comes within your fly speed distance, because of course, if he does you merely have your readied action charge go off, and pounce his face off.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Orb: nonmagical object hits you with an attack roll. Starmantle: destroys nonmagical projectiles. Self-explanatory.

Also, orbs are 2 feet wide. Forcecage bars have half-inch gaps.

Charging is a full-round action. You can't ready it.

If you don't want to spend 6th level slots to counter orbs, some of the bigger dragons should get Multispell. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for dragons that don't have 9th level spells. However, all dragons have stupidly high attack rolls. Combat Expertise and its improved version enable the dragon to take -20 to attack and still hit while taking +20 to touch AC.

[NEO|Phyte]

A split ray doesn't work on orbs. Twin does-but Wings of Cover can also be twinned.

Wouldn't this make your immediate-action spell into a full-round action to cast? Or does your thingy have a metamagic time reducer that doesn't involve giving up the familiar you don't have without actual sorcerer class levels? Or does it have said class levels?

[Kelpstrand]

Orb: nonmagical object hits you with an attack roll. Starmantle: destroys nonmagical projectiles. Self-explanatory.

renders the wearer impervious to non-magical weapon attacks, and transforms any nonmagical weapon or missile that strikes the wearer into harmless light, destroying it.

1) immune to weapon attacks. IE, not Orbs.
2) Even if Orbs counted as missiles, which they do not. It would still only destroy the Orb not render you immune to the attack, so you would take damage.

See the difference between Projectile and missile? See the difference between weapon attack and attack?


Also, orbs are 2 feet wide.

No, they are 3 inches wide.


Charging is a full-round action. You can't ready it.

Partial Charge is a standard action, you can ready it.


Wouldn't this make your immediate-action spell into a full-round action to cast? Or does your thingy have a metamagic time reducer that doesn't involve giving up the familiar you don't have without actual sorcerer class levels? Or does it have said class levels?

Due to the fact that spells with casting times less than 1 standard action didn't exist when the Sorcerer entry was written, it only specified that standard action spells took a full round, and full round and longer spells add 1 full round.

It did not specify that swift action spells become standard action spells, because of course they didn't exist. Belial is going to take advantage of this to have Dragons that cast 9th level spells use many of their high level slots for metamagiced immediate action spells, because they only have to fight one encounter instead of 4.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Whoops, wrong orb-the 2 ft one is the sphere of ultimate destruction. :smallredface: Still, 3 inches don't fit through half-inch gaps.

Starmantle; checked again, it's missiles, not projectiles. My mistake. That doesn't stop the dragon from having a few levels in the dragon-only class that gives 3 energy immunities and take mantle of the fiery spirit for the 4th for universal energy immunity along with its own immunity.

[Kelpstrand]

Starmantle; checked again, it's missiles, not projectiles. My mistake. That doesn't stop the dragon from having a few levels in the dragon-only class that gives 3 energy immunities and take mantle of the fiery spirit for the 4th for universal energy immunity along with its own immunity.

No it doesn't, but that won't help at much against a Corrupt Searing (Twinned Quickened Admixtured Piercing) Orb of Fire, which still does 3/4ths damage against enemies immune to all elements. Frankly, since you are dealing with 9th level casting Dragons anyway you can just cast Energy Immunity 4 times to cover all non natural immunities.

[AstralFire]

No offense, Belial, but I don't think your thread (or threads like Test of Spite, when used to prove a point rather than just for fun) means much to prove a Wizard's practical playability or un/brokenness, one way or the other.

You have a much better grasp on mechanics than most DMs I know (considering you can make Epic work), self-included, and how to counter them in the rules with no nerfs. So do most of the people in Test of Spite. It's like watching an episode of Survivorman to prove that if I was suddenly dumped in the middle of the Sahara with no warning, I would live.

I wouldn't.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@AstralFire;
In that, you are correct. A DM should always have at least as much rules knowledge as his/her players to make combat challenging. Just like a DM should have at least as much setting knowledge and roleplaying ability as his/her players to make the roleplaying and story both interesting and working.


@Kelpstrand;
Sure. But that still deals what, 157 damage twice per round? Half for the first because one of the orbs is gonna get deflected by wings of cover, none for the second, because the wizard missed against the dragon's really high touch AC (imp. expertise). That's 80 damage for two 9th level slots against a creature with 500+ HP. The dragon can live with that. The next round it uses even more expertise along with wraithstrike to still attack at +25 touch while it has a touch AC equal to its normal AC. The wizard needs a 20 to hit and runs out of spell slots before he gets it to half HP.
This tactic, which only requires 2nd level spells plus feats and is thus available to low-level dragons, makes the dragon a fearsome opponent because it counters touch attacks nicely.

[ashmanonar]

Well, I suppose that we conveniently find ourselves completely unable to test things to your satisfaction, then.

Interesting how that works.

[ashmanonar]

My method has the advantage of working even if everybody save Alice, including any 3rd parties, works to cheat against Alice. A 3rd party dice-roller can't necessarily be trusted, and in practice probably uses a PRNG that isn't totally random.

Dice aren't even freaking totally random. What's your point?

[quick_comment]

Dice aren't even freaking totally random. What's your point?

No, they are totally random. Their distribution is not totally flat.

It is however, flat within the error bound of any reasonable number of trials.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Random or not, if two people are using the same diceroller, nobody has an unfair advantage. Thus ppl should use the most available roller, not something obscure and unwieldy in the interest of even results.

[Kelpstrand]

Sure. But that still deals what, 157 damage twice per round? Half for the first because one of the orbs is gonna get deflected by wings of cover, none for the second, because the wizard missed against the dragon's really high touch AC (imp. expertise). That's 80 damage for two 9th level slots against a creature with 500+ HP. The dragon can live with that. The next round it uses even more expertise along with wraithstrike to still attack at +25 touch while it has a touch AC equal to its normal AC. The wizard needs a 20 to hit and runs out of spell slots before he gets it to half HP.
This tactic, which only requires 2nd level spells plus feats and is thus available to low-level dragons, makes the dragon a fearsome opponent because it counters touch attacks nicely.

You sure love making assumptions about what other people have available don't you?

Hypothetically, you wouldn't even know to use Wings of Cover unless your Dragon can see invisible, and even then, four orbs a round, at an AB of the Wizard, not that you get to make up, is going to be annoying pretty quick.

Not to mention that here you still keep showing a Dragon who puts everything into Wizards at the cost of losing to anyone else. First you spend tons of feats to get your SR up to higher than any straight monster of that CR, in order to protect against anything with SR, then you Combat Expertise your way out of 20 or more AB in order to have a Touch AC, then the Druid grapples you and you are his bitch at -20 to grapple check, whoops. Then the Rogue or Cleric Archer pours damage into you at a ridiculous rate, and all this because you devote 3/4ths of your feats and all of your actions to dealing with the Wizard. Yes a CR 20 Dragon fighting nothing but a Wizard and build explicitly to challenge a Wizard might have a 50% chance against a well built Wizard.

But if you didn't start by throwing yourself out a window to avoid the fire the ground wouldn't be hitting you quite so hard. You choose the ground, it doesn't prove that ground is more dangerous than fire. I can build a Dragon who uses feats to make Clerics and Fighters look like chumps but gets owned by a Wizard too.

[The Glyphstone]

But if you didn't start by throwing yourself out a window to avoid the fire the ground wouldn't be hitting you quite so hard. You choose the ground, it doesn't prove that ground is more dangerous than fire. I can build a Dragon who uses feats to make Clerics and Fighters look like chumps but gets owned by a Wizard too.

The problem is that the anti-Wizard Dragon will, a vast majority of the time, still be able to make the Cleric/Fighter look like a chump. An anti-Fighter/Cleric dragon will very likely get flattened by a Wizard. In the words of Momma Black, even when optimized to be effectively spellproof....it's still a dragon. The best Fighter builds are Uberchargers and Chain Trippers, neither of which can really harm a flying dragon. Archer fighters don't do enough reliable damage to keep up with the dragon's DR compared to the Flyby Attack and breath weapon strafing the dragon is performing, and even if it's an Ubercharger with access to magical flight from a friendly caster, 150ft. or 200ft. Flight speed and the Hover feat (basically mandatory for dragons) keeps the Charger out of Charge range, since he's capped at the 30ft. flight speed of Fly unless further buffed (admittedly, there are ways to do so, but they make the encounter even more contrived than it is). DMM Clerics, for the most part, function like heavily buffed Fighter builds unless they're Archery focused or Spellcasting-heavy, at which point all the Dragon's defenses are relevant again. A Wildshaped, buffed Druid could give the Dragon a run for its money, but everyone knows Druids are OP.

[Eldritch_Ent]

The problem is that the anti-Wizard Dragon will, a vast majority of the time, still be able to make the Cleric/Fighter look like a chump. An anti-Fighter/Cleric dragon will very likely get flattened by a Wizard.

Pretty much this. A dragon in an AMF is dangerous to anything else that isn't also a Dragon. A druid, cleric, or fighter without their buffs and magical gear are only slightly less squishy than a simliarly defenseless wizard due to better HP/Armor/BAB, but even with those they'll still die just as hard to a full attack or breath weapon. It just means it might take two instead of one.

Ironically, in the case of AMF dragons, it's generally up to the full arcane caster (such as the party wizard) to open the thing up and make it vulnerable by casting disjunction or dispel or something. In fact this is generally true of casters and dragons in general, the party isn't going to last long at all without their stoneskins or Protecting from Elements. (Or protection from alignment to avoid those nasty mind-affecting spells.)

[HamHam]

The problem is that the anti-Wizard Dragon will, a vast majority of the time, still be able to make the Cleric/Fighter look like a chump. An anti-Fighter/Cleric dragon will very likely get flattened by a Wizard. In the words of Momma Black, even when optimized to be effectively spellproof....it's still a dragon. The best Fighter builds are Uberchargers and Chain Trippers, neither of which can really harm a flying dragon. Archer fighters don't do enough reliable damage to keep up with the dragon's DR compared to the Flyby Attack and breath weapon strafing the dragon is performing, and even if it's an Ubercharger with access to magical flight from a friendly caster, 150ft. or 200ft. Flight speed and the Hover feat (basically mandatory for dragons) keeps the Charger out of Charge range, since he's capped at the 30ft. flight speed of Fly unless further buffed (admittedly, there are ways to do so, but they make the encounter even more contrived than it is). DMM Clerics, for the most part, function like heavily buffed Fighter builds unless they're Archery focused or Spellcasting-heavy, at which point all the Dragon's defenses are relevant again. A Wildshaped, buffed Druid could give the Dragon a run for its money, but everyone knows Druids are OP.

Teleport above it (probably using Boots of Teleport) then activate your Belt of Battle to give you a new full round action and charge straight down. If this doesn't at least half kill it, you aren't much of an ubercharger.

EDIT: Also, can't you Run while flying?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ironically, in the case of AMF dragons, it's generally up to the full arcane caster (such as the party wizard) to open the thing up and make it vulnerable by casting disjunction or dispel or something. In fact this is generally true of casters and dragons in general, the party isn't going to last long at all without their stoneskins or Protecting from Elements. (Or protection from alignment to avoid those nasty mind-affecting spells.)

You can't Dispel an AMF, but since the dragon has no buffs in one, opening up fire with Conjurations is possible.

[HamHam]

Also, this wizard-killing dragon is actually going to have a rather difficult time killing the Wizard unless it can make a Dimensional Anchor (or the like) stick. Because once the Wizard realizes it has uber-SR and protection from Orbs and what not, he just teleports away. And then comes up with the perfect selection of spells to bypass the dragon's defenses. And then finds it again and kills it.

The dragon, because it got it's defenses from feats and Sorcerer spells, can't retool to beat the Wizards new strategy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's possible to retool as a sorcerer, iirc. It's mentioned in one of the advice threads that was floating around a while back.

[The Glyphstone]

Teleport above it (probably using Boots of Teleport) then activate your Belt of Battle to give you a new full round action and charge straight down. If this doesn't at least half kill it, you aren't much of an ubercharger.

EDIT: Also, can't you Run while flying?

That'd work, but then I hadn't taken Belt of Battle into consideration, since I personally put it up there with Incantatrix and Shepherd cheese-wise. Assuming the dragon uses Wings of Cover to block your first, highest-AB attack, you will still do a ton of damage. Then you'll keep falling and hit the ground, but that's not exactly dangerous to a fighter.

EDIT:
Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)


The subject of a Fly spell can charge, but not run.

...Fly is 60ft.? Well color me surprised, I thought it was 30ft. - 40ft. in armor as any good fighter should be, but that's enough to catch the 150ft. flight dragons if they try to sweep by you. The 200ft. fliers are safe though.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

My only point in regards to Jaya was that that was a very poor example of an uber wizard as it was presented to me in the context of this thread. lol.
She is a pretty standard specialist wizard, a bit too beefed up on magic items for my liking, but not overly powerful other than that.

Jaya's Items:
Belt of Dwarvenkind 14,900
Blessed Book 12,500
Gloves of Dexterity 16,000
Hand of Glory 8,000 (Hasn't been used so far)
Handy Haversack 2,000
Headband of Intellect +4 16,000
Lesser Metamagic Rod Extend Spell 3000
Ring of Sustainance 2,500
Spell Book 15
Spell Component Pouch 5 x3
Cloak of Arachnida 14,000 (Not really used so far)
Contingency focus 1,500

How is this too item dependent?

Oh, and before you complain about me not RPing for any of it, consider that I'm an Evocation researcher for a mage's guild.

And that the gloves and cloak are very stylish.


As for WBL I realise that it is intended to assume you have already paid for everything else. But the difference it assumes is appalingly cheap. WBL is very over the top. Even if given the recommended wealth for each level as you progress (which rarely happens anyway) you wind up buying that 50gp magic item, and 4 of those scrolls etc. Which you then expend on the next adventure then re-buy.. then expend, over and over. You buy all those rations and that expensive scroll case, only to lose it all when your boat sinks while travelling up river to some temple. etc..
I don't use expendables. This is not a problem for any characters that I have ever played.


Now think about the time and the amount of things a wizard does to get to level 20 from level 1. It is staggering the volume of resources you consume on the small details. The WBL as it is just gives you a titanic pile of gold to spend on magic items, that is pretty much it.
1/4th of your WBL can be spent on one item. That's a significant restriction, iirc.

Now, let me ask you this: How do you handle what items a character can have if you start at, say level 12? Do you make them roleplay the acquisition of all of them?

[Kelpstrand]

The problem is that the anti-Wizard Dragon will, a vast majority of the time, still be able to make the Cleric/Fighter look like a chump. An anti-Fighter/Cleric dragon will very likely get flattened by a Wizard. In the words of Momma Black, even when optimized to be effectively spellproof....it's still a dragon. The best Fighter builds are Uberchargers and Chain Trippers, neither of which can really harm a flying dragon. Archer fighters don't do enough reliable damage to keep up with the dragon's DR compared to the Flyby Attack and breath weapon strafing the dragon is performing, and even if it's an Ubercharger with access to magical flight from a friendly caster, 150ft. or 200ft. Flight speed and the Hover feat (basically mandatory for dragons) keeps the Charger out of Charge range, since he's capped at the 30ft. flight speed of Fly unless further buffed (admittedly, there are ways to do so, but they make the encounter even more contrived than it is). DMM Clerics, for the most part, function like heavily buffed Fighter builds unless they're Archery focused or Spellcasting-heavy, at which point all the Dragon's defenses are relevant again. A Wildshaped, buffed Druid could give the Dragon a run for its money, but everyone knows Druids are OP.

1) No, not really. As already mentioned, a Pouncing Charge build can kill this in one round, for example:

Wings of Flight: Fly speed equal to twice land speed. Constant effect. Often had by Uberchargers at level 20.
Activate Haste boots:
Ready action to partial charge when he comes in range:

When Dragon is within 140ft of you, charge his ass for a full attack of full Power attack Shocktrooper when he doesn't have elusive target because he spent all his feats on SR.

Result: Dead Dragon.

2) Archer Cleric: Not subject to SR or defenses. Since a freaking Wings of Cover does nothing against a full attack of 24 arrows, each at (and this is with a mere three Persisted Spells, he'd actually have to cast those spells if DMM Persist is not allowed) +47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+42/+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+32/+32 all fired from a Seeking Bow. Doing 3d6+29 damage each.

Now, that particular build is reduced to 12 attacks because of the no setting specific rule, and with DMM Persist banned, would be forced to actually cast all three spells (One of which has a Duration of 10 minutes per level anyway). But it also doesn't take into account the various other buff spells you can stack on it with various durations.

Cleric Archers can wreck face all over Mr Dragon who uses tactics meant for people who cast spells at him.

[HamHam]

Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm)

...Fly is 60ft.? Well color me surprised, I thought it was 30ft. - 40ft. in armor as any good fighter should be, but that's enough to catch the 150ft. flight dragons if they try to sweep by you. The 200ft. fliers are safe though.

Not really. Double move for 120ft, activate Belt of Battle, charge for another 120ft. Hit him again if he tries to move away. If he doesn't, full attack and kill it. If he does, ready action to charge when he tries to attack you.

EDIT: Also, you have superior manuverability which is going to even the playing field some even if the dragon has better absolute speed.

[quick_comment]

Or you know, the dragon casts celerity and does whatever he wants.

[Arakune]

2) Archer Cleric: Not subject to SR or defenses. Since a freaking Wings of Cover does nothing against a full attack of 24 arrows, each at (and this is with a mere three Persisted Spells, he'd actually have to cast those spells if DMM Persist is not allowed) +47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+47/+42/+42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+32/+32 all fired from a Seeking Bow. Doing 3d6+29 damage each.

Now, that particular build is reduced to 12 attacks because of the no setting specific rule, and with DMM Persist banned, would be forced to actually cast all three spells (One of which has a Duration of 10 minutes per level anyway). But it also doesn't take into account the various other buff spells you can stack on it with various durations.

Cleric Archers can wreck face all over Mr Dragon who uses tactics meant for people who cast spells at him.

The ubercharger? Sure, I know about it. THIS abomination? HOW?! :smalleek:

[Alleine]

Y'know, Belial said in his first post that he has never had to nerf wizards in his games. I highly doubt that the people in those games play the uber-paranoid wizard that is discussed in this thread. They might try to be really powerful wizards, but I've yet to hear of the truly unkillable wizard being used in play. Belial's games are probably no exception.

Assuming that the wizards are not built into unkillable wizards, it is also highly unlikely that the entire rest of the party will be optimized Uberchargers/Archer clerics/whatever else you want.

At no point did he claim his dragon was the most invincible thing ever that can beat a full team of theoretical optimizers within the blink of an eye. He claimed that the dragon could be used against the casters in his campaign effectively. This attempt to prove that the dragon is ineffective seems to be missing the mark.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

At no point did he claim his dragon was the most invincible thing ever that can beat a full team of theoretical optimizers within the blink of an eye. He claimed that the dragon could be used against the casters in his campaign effectively. This attempt to prove that the dragon is ineffective seems to be missing the mark.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that it proves nothing, since the DM can make an anti-anything monster. He's the DM, after all.

[quick_comment]

SR really isnt all that useful against a wizard, due to the many spells to get around it.

Assay Resistance and True Casting both give +10 to overcome it. Lower spell resistance applies a penalty of your caster level to the target's SR.

Then there are spells that just dont check SR, like solid fog.

[Eldritch_Ent]

The ubercharger? Sure, I know about it. THIS abomination? HOW?! :smalleek:

I too am intruiged!

[Alleine]

I think the point that is trying to be made is that it proves nothing, since the DM can make an anti-anything monster. He's the DM, after all.

He is using normal feats and spells that the dragon can get though. Not just arbitrarily saying "oh, what did you roll for the SR check? Whoops, no, its higher than that, too bad"

The point I saw him making was that wizards aren't really unkillable. Which I'll admit is silly, since we already know that and it has been mentioned a few times now. They're only unkillable in the context of TO.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

He is using normal feats and spells that the dragon can get though. Not just arbitrarily saying "oh, what did you roll for the SR check? Whoops, no, its higher than that, too bad"

Throwing Epic monsters at a non-Epic character is kinda like doing that.

[Kelpstrand]

Yeah, the problem isn't that his monster loses to powerful non Wizards, it's that it could not lose to them if it paid attention to them. He starts of by spending 3-6 feats straight up on nothing but spell resistance, and he does this to get spell resistance 50 against ECL 20 Wizards.

Now, an ECL 20 Wizard is normally going to have about CL 23 at most. Even if they have spell penetration and greater, and roll a 20 on the CL check, that's still SR: Immunity against any caster not using Assay. And that's the point. That's not appropriate SR, that's too much to be reasonable. A caster shouldn't have to use a 4th level slot, take two feats, spend 78,000gp and make a DC 21 UMD check just to have a 45% chance of affecting an enemy at all with an SR: Yes spell. Comparable AB optimization puts it at +60 or so. Is the Dragons AC 71? Of course not. It could be, but he doesn't put so much work into buffing AC that no one can hit him without maximum optimization, because it would make fighters useless and look like crap, and then he wouldn't get to ever matter at all. He does think it's okay to take away all SR yes spells from anyone who doesn't have Assay Resistance (and most people who do have it). No amount of optimization can get you to the point where you can beat SR 50 without circle cheese or specific spells which were designed to allow Wizards to lose actions or high level slots to beat SR, not to get the 50% chance they already had against monsters with SR. (Actually, one trick, but I'm keeping that one quiet because it's still allowed by the rules of his challenge.)

Also, Lower Spell Resistance is an SR: yes spell. And therefore has no bearing on anything ever and is the worst designed spell in the history of spells.

As an example, the average SR for a CR 20 monster (with SR) in the SRD is 28. Let's say that you add +7 for the additional +5 CR (being generous here), now you have +35. Let's say you are even a high SR monster and not an average, so you have SR 40. You still don't have SR 50, and it is actually possible for a non Circle cheese Wizard to break your SR 45% of the time at the cost of 58,000gp 2 feats, and a Archmage Arcana. For someone so focused on breaking SR, that's pretty good against a monster that is supposed to have really high SR (and that I'm being really generous to).

Now see how such an SR breaking focused Wizard has a 0% chance of breaking SR 50 without Assay Resistance? Yeah.

[The Glyphstone]

Not really. Double move for 120ft, activate Belt of Battle, charge for another 120ft. Hit him again if he tries to move away. If he doesn't, full attack and kill it. If he does, ready action to charge when he tries to attack you.

EDIT: Also, you have superior manuverability which is going to even the playing field some even if the dragon has better absolute speed.

How many Belts of Battle do your characters typically carry? This is just as viable a strategy as your earlier one with the Teleport Boots and the Belt, just a bit less complicated - except for the fact that I don't have a clue why you're planning to stand there and trade full attacks with a dragon, they tend to be much nastier than anything a player can dish out who's not performing a Pouncing Ubercharge. Ubercharging a dragon is possible and a likely kill, but if you don't get it in one shot, you're probably in trouble, as its full-attack potential is significantly higher than most melee fighters when they can't charge.






Also, Lower Spell Resistance is an SR: yes spell. And therefore has no bearing on anything ever and is the worst designed spell in the history of spells.

That....is awesome.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Throwing Epic monsters at a non-Epic character is kinda like doing that.

What, you mean like with a Hulking Hurler? :smallconfused:

[HamHam]

How many Belts of Battle do your characters typically carry? This is just as viable a strategy as your earlier one with the Teleport Boots and the Belt, just a bit less complicated - except for the fact that I don't have a clue why you're planning to stand there and trade full attacks with a dragon, they tend to be much nastier than anything a player can dish out who's not performing a Pouncing Ubercharge. Ubercharging a dragon is possible and a likely kill, but if you don't get it in one shot, you're probably in trouble, as its full-attack potential is significantly higher than most melee fighters when they can't charge.

Since it moved last turn (otherwise you wouldn't have needed to do that whole charging plus belt thing) it needs to use a move action to start hovering, so it only gets a standard attack. And then you full attack it. After that, sure you'll be trading full attacks but you will probably kill it before it kills you.

[Kelpstrand]

That....is awesome.

Unfortunately, I appear to be wrong. It's still useless against Dragons because it's Fortitude negates, but the Draconomicon one is super awesome and works. I could have sworn that they updated it somewhere and it was made crappy. But I can't find the updated one right now.

EDIT: though the casting time still sucks, and makes it impossible to ready an action to cast, so it still has some major flaws. But at least in the Draconomicon you can occasionally get something to fail the save.

[quick_comment]

There is also spell vulnerability, in the planar handbook. Exactly the same as lower spell resistance except it is level 3 instead of 4 and they stack.

And you dont need to prepare these spells. Get scrolls of rapid lower spell resistance and rapid spell vulnerability.

[Kelpstrand]

There is also spell vulnerability, in the planar handbook. Exactly the same as lower spell resistance except it is level 3 instead of 4 and they stack.

And you dont need to prepare these spells. Get scrolls of rapid lower spell resistance and rapid spell vulnerability.

There we go. Check out the Spell Compendium "update" of Spell Vulnerability. It is now completely useless and terrible. At least they forgot to update Lower Spell Resistance to make 90% of the MM immune to it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The DM's job is to challenge the players. If the players can kill it in less than 5 rounds without expending any resources then it is not a challenge. Therefore, it is the DM's job to optimise his/her monsters. The monster has to be able to survive 4 rounds of combat; 4 wizard novas, 4 cleric spells, 4 full attacks, 4 sneak attacks. It is easier with dragons but doable with other kinds of creatures as well.

Dragons don't need hover though; just increase their maneurability or give them levitate.

The really high SR monsters are golems (SR infinite), rakshasa (SR HD+20), some aberrations (SR HD+18). Mid-SR monsters are most fiends and angels (SR HD+12). Everything else is low. Draconomicon dragons are below SR Infinite but still above anything else except Rakshasa with only a single Awaken SR feat. SR 50 is done with the feat 3 times and Drazix vest.
If you put ALL feats into SR for a black wurm (CR 20) plus Drazix vest , you get an insane SR of 70.

[Milskidasith]

The DM's job is to challenge the players. If the players can kill it in less than 5 rounds without expending any resources then it is not a challenge. Therefore, it is the DM's job to optimise his/her monsters. The monster has to be able to survive 4 rounds of combat; 4 wizard novas, 4 cleric spells, 4 full attacks, 4 sneak attacks. It is easier with dragons but doable with other kinds of creatures as well.

Dragons don't need hover though; just increase their maneurability or give them levitate.

The really high SR monsters are golems (SR infinite), rakshasa (SR HD+20), some aberrations (SR HD+18). Mid-SR monsters are most fiends and angels (SR HD+12). Everything else is low. Draconomicon dragons are below SR Infinite but still above anything else except Rakshasa with only a single Awaken SR feat. SR 50 is done with the feat 3 times and Drazix vest.
If you put ALL feats into SR for a black wurm (CR 20) plus Drazix vest , you get an insane SR of 70.

The thing is, that dragon is going to last less than four rounds (maybe... two/three?) against an optimized ubercharger or cleric archer, and unless the wizards are very specifically prepared for something that spent most of it's feats on being spell resistant, they won't ever hit it. At all. Even if they are prepared... they've still got a fairly small chance of even getting the dragon to have to roll it's saving throws. It's not "balanced" just because the wizards can't kill it in one round; they can't kill it at all but it's a cakewalk (as far as a dragon can be a cakewalk) for everybody else.

[Kelpstrand]

What Milskidasith said. Dies in two-4 rounds to a Cleric Archer (4 is only if he has to buff before shooting), dies in one round to an Ubercharger. Wizards sits back and watches. No one cares.

That's not challenging your players, it's called fighting goblins in an AMF. The Fighter hits stuff, the Cleric hits stuff, the Wizard stands there and watches the DM brag about how Wizards aren't uber because the Fighter is doing all the damage.

Also, I only said 3-6 feats, You also have to take Combat Expertise to try to screw the Wizard, and a bunch of Breath feats, and then take epic spellcasting feats with your Epic spellcaster. But those aren't anti fighter any more than they are anti Wizard, so they don't represent you keeping your Dragon alive for four rounds.

You are saying that Dragons are barely below HD+20 in SR. That's great, now how about you do that in the only comparison that matters, CR+X. Cause you know, Rakasha have 7HD for 10 CR, Dragons have about 15HD per 10 CR.

So what you actually have is a monster with more SR at CR 10 than the monster with the most, and then you decide that having more SR than any monster ever is still not enough, and you have to make it actually impossible for Wizards to hit the creatures with any SR spell at all.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Wurm Black Dragon (CR 20) has 12 feats, 5 of which can be epic, and 160.000 gp treasure, 220.000 gp if you want to make him an NPC with one monk level for the LULZ (which doesn't change the CR but makes him tougher but the PCs get more treasure for a win)

Annoying Dragon set;

Get SR at 50-56; 3 feats, 2 epic feats, 25k gp item.
Get Imp Expertise and high touch AC to deal with orbs/arrows; 2 feats, 13.000 gp item.
Get Elusive Target to negate power attack; 3 feats.

So far defencively we're good and we still have 120.000 gp and 3 feats to spend. Add two +6 items to stats (con, dex, str are good), soulfire armor and a +5 item to saves for general bonuses, take Snatch, Fast Healing 1x and Flyby Attack. If an NPC, add a ring of protection +4 and that crystal of +5 AC vs ranged attacks.

The dragon plays like this; it is hard to harm him without extensive buffing and he has 500+ HP. He flies in, bites and grapples with snatch, flies away with victim, eats victim. If the enemy is immune to grappling or has too many buffs, Antimagic Field. Within antimagic, the dragon has a +62 grapple modifier so it still pretty much autograpples an antimagicked target even if it takes a -20 for expertise. Without antimagic it has a better bonus and can further buff but enemies can have rings of free action. It plays a battle of attrition on the PCs for 4 rounds or so-just long enough for them to eat away some of his HP and buff up while expending their offencive spells. Then, it uses a 5th level slot to Teleport away. It stays away for 10 minutes for his fast healing to heal him up and for the PCs' buffs to run out then flies back in for another round. It can potentially do this 5 times in a row if the PCs are foolish enough not to learn from their mistakes.


The PCs can still kill the dragon. They can even do it in a few rounds. But not with OMGINCANTATRIXNOVAKEWLSALL. They have to think out of the box and *gasp* use tactics.

[Arakune]

I too am intruiged!

I kind of found it:

Full BAB (4 attacks) + rapid shot (+1 attack) + haste (+1 attack)x2 (belt of battle gaining one full round action and full attacking again) = 12 attacks. The extra 12 attacks are still a mistery to me. The bonus to attack and damage I still couldn't figure out.

My rules-fu are weak but please guide me, oh mighty ones.

[olentu]

I kind of found it:

Full BAB (4 attacks) + rapid shot (+1 attack) + haste (+1 attack)x2 (belt of battle gaining one full round action and full attacking again) = 12 attacks. The extra 12 attacks are still a mistery to me. The bonus to attack and damage I still couldn't figure out.

My rules-fu are weak but please guide me, oh mighty ones.

I would assume that at least some of the extra attacks come from being an arrow demon from the MM2. Said demon can two weapon fight with bows if I am remembering the ability correctly.

Also splitting might be involved.

Edit: make that MM3.

[Arakune]

I would assume that at least some of the extra attacks come from being an arrow demon from the MM2. Said demon can two weapon fight with bows if I am remembering the ability correctly.

Also splitting might be involved.

Edit: make that MM3.

Ahm... so SRD only the max is 6 (didn't found belt of battle on SRD but remembered what the item did. well, part of)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I would assume that at least some of the extra attacks come from being an arrow demon from the MM2. Said demon can two weapon fight with bows if I am remembering the ability correctly.

Also splitting might be involved.

Edit: make that MM3.

And the Arrow Demon is a dual classed Ranger/Ranger who can dual wield his dual wield.

[Gaiyamato]

I am fairly certain that it states you cannot multiclass into the same class somewhere in the PHB.. unless that is some sort of joke. lol.

[Arakune]

I am fairly certain that it states you cannot multiclass into the same class somewhere in the PHB.. unless that is some sort of joke. lol.

It is from 8-bit theatre (http://www.nuklearpower.com).

[Gaiyamato]

Hadn't seen that one. That makes sense now. lol.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yo Dawg

I heard you liked to dual wield, so we put a dual wield in your dual wield so you could dual wield while you dual wield (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/)

Oh, and do you know the best thing about magic, Gaiyamto?

Everything (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/31/episode-1089-special-delivery/)

[Kelpstrand]

{Scrubbed} {Please don't edit a moderator edited post}

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This is my last warning to this thread before I lock it. Please remain civil in here.

[the_tick_rules]

They are pretty tough. But wizards are very vulnerable at low levels. One lucky hit by a goblin and wizard goes bye bye.

[Xaklin_Magewrit]

So is everything with a d4, or d6 hit die its worse with low CON.

[Gaiyamato]

Yo Dawg

I heard you liked to dual wield, so we put a dual wield in your dual wield so you could dual wield while you dual wield (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/27/episode-1087-exalted-feat/)

Oh, and do you know the best thing about magic, Gaiyamto?

Everything (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2009/01/31/episode-1089-special-delivery/)

Thanks for the links dude. :)

ROFL

I cannot beleive I had not seen that before. That is awesomely funny..

[Kelpstrand]

@ Belial. I can completely destroy any party of level 8 made under your rules with a Core Gelugon without changing feats. Kiting and magically turning all the treasure you are supposed to roll (that is mostly in art and gems and gold, and not Magic items) into optimized item choices only proves that you can use the CR system to boost monster numbers far past expected values for CR.

Your example monster is a monster that a level 20 Core (Venerable Gray Elf) Wizard could only force a failed Will save on a Dimensional Anchor heightened to 9th level that they had spell focus and greater spell focus in on a 2 or 1. Not that it matters, because they can never beat the SR anyway, and Dimensional Lock can't even work because of the SR.

Even if a party rolls nothing but 20s, and you roll nothing but 2s they can still never ever prevent you from teleporting out ever. The only saving grace is that AC 40ish when you aren't making attacks is not less than AB numbers, so the Cleric Archer can just single round kill. Which is good, because if the Dragon doesn't instantly die in one round, then nothing they could ever do prevents it from teleporting out.

The winning strategy here is clearly to Plane shift to another plane and have Mindblank to avoid being located, because other than one round kills it's invulnerable since trying too hard to make the Wizard feel useless means without Dimensional Anchor, fights that take longer than 1 round become fights that never end except in party death.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'd still like you to tell me why my character is bad for having standard WBL and buying items, even though she is an evocation researcher for a mage's guild and would be the most likely person to have said items, exactly how she is too dependent/focused on items, and how you handle item acquisition.

[Gaiyamato]

If I get into it I'll get another warning most likely.

So I'll just bow out, say I was wrong (which in some of what I said I was) and call it a day.
Thus you shall not ever get another reply on that particular topic.

Besides I actually like you. Getting all argumentative and worked up over this rubbish was silly.

*goes back to his prolog code*

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Kelpstrand;
Guess what? All treasure is usually rolled. PCs aren't supposed to cherry-pick magic items either. And half the rolled treasure is practically useless (art objects FTW), the other half in items that even for lvl 20 encounters cost less than 40.000 gp. So if you want to roll for treasure, go ahead. Your wizard rolls first. Yes, there are alternatives of bying from a planar metropolis, having an item crafted or crafting it yourself. But there is no reason why a monster can't use the exact same ways to get whatever items are most beneficial.

[Avor]

high level wizzards dominate, literally and figuratively.

But start at level 1 with a mercyless dm.

[Xaklin_Magewrit]

Then everyone can be dead unless that DM HATES wizard to a point of must kill all wizards.

[Kelpstrand]

@Kelpstrand;
Guess what? All treasure is usually rolled. PCs aren't supposed to cherry-pick magic items either. And half the rolled treasure is practically useless (art objects FTW), the other half in items that even for lvl 20 encounters cost less than 40.000 gp. So if you want to roll for treasure, go ahead. Your wizard rolls first. Yes, there are alternatives of bying from a planar metropolis, having an item crafted or crafting it yourself. But there is no reason why a monster can't use the exact same ways to get whatever items are most beneficial.

Well, actually, the reason that monsters aren't supposed to use those methods is because they get inherent boosts to all statistics that compensate for lack of items, so converting treasure into useful items increases all their statistics above what is CR appropriate, and increases CR.

A hypothetical Dragon of CR 12 has the same saves as level 12 character with items (really more because Dragons have the awesome subtype). If you then give it items, it is now of a greater CR.

You are making it impossible for Dragons to fail any saves at all, and that's just not what you are supposed to do. If you made it so that the most optimized possible attack roll could only hit on a 20 against touch AC you wouldn't actually call that a CR appropriate challenge. The only reason you don't TPK everyone is because you don't increase AC until only 20s matter, you just increase saves until using spells with saving throws is no longer an option.

EDIT: WBL also assumes you get mostly cash (or cash substitutes like Art and gems) and items you have to sell. If all the items you found were worth using, because dragons you kill had +6 cha and +6 Con and +6 str items, the players would have more than WBL, since they wouldn't have to sell.

And unless I miss my guess, you are a bit monty hauling it, in that all your encounters have at minimum standard wealth and often much more.

[AstralFire]

let's not make guesses about who is and who isn't 'monty hauling it', since so far every accusation I've seen of that on this forum (that wasn't someone coming out and saying it applied to his or herself) has miserably failed, and it generally doesn't make for good feelings...

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You mean to say that something that is appropriate challenge to a straight evoker 20 will be an equal challenge to conjurer 5/incantatrix 10/archmage 5?

In the first instance, you will use the standard dragon. In the second instance the DM has to use the optimised dragon to make the encounter challenging.

Remember, WotC balancing of CR takes no optimisation into account. At all. Not to mention that a 20 HD balor is the same CR as the 34 hd black wurm but that's another story.

[Kelpstrand]

You mean to say that something that is appropriate challenge to a straight evoker 20 will be an equal challenge to conjurer 5/incantatrix 10/archmage 5?

In the first instance, you will use the standard dragon. In the second instance the DM has to use the optimised dragon to make the encounter challenging.

Remember, WotC balancing of CR takes no optimisation into account. At all. Not to mention that a 20 HD balor is the same CR as the 34 hd black wurm but that's another story.

1) You banned Incantatrix.

2) An Evoker 20 and a Conjurer 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 have the same save DCs. the Evoker has a 25% chance of forcing a failed will save with a 9th level spell and a 100% chance of beating SR, the Conjurer has a 5% chance of forcing a failed save and a 0% chance of beating SR.

Incantatrixes don't magically get higher numbers than other Wizards, they get free buffs, more feats, and some situationally okay abilities.

WotC balancing takes into account lots of optimization. A non optimized Wizard has a 5% chance of forcing a failed save, and it wouldn't matter if you buffed the saves, but an optimized Wizard has a 75% chance against the standard Dragon, and the fact that non core Wizards don't get higher numbers means adding to the numbers just makes it not matter. Heck, your Dragon can still be killed by an Incantatrix with no save no SR Orbs, because you can't combat expertise unless you make an attack, but in the mean time, no one can dimensional Anchor him to let someone who can't kill him in one round do anything meaningful at all.

[Arakune]

You mean to say that something that is appropriate challenge to a straight evoker 20 will be an equal challenge to conjurer 5/incantatrix 10/archmage 5?

In the first instance, you will use the standard dragon. In the second instance the DM has to use the optimised dragon to make the encounter challenging.

Remember, WotC balancing of CR takes no optimisation into account. At all. Not to mention that a 20 HD balor is the same CR as the 34 hd black wurm but that's another story.

Isn't Blasphemy quite a selling point for balor?

[Eldritch_Ent]

@Kelpstrand;
All treasure is usually rolled.

I'm just going to have to stop you there and say no, it's not. It's an unsupported assertion on your party, and a terrible thing to base any kind of argument off of.

I mean, it would be just as easy to say "All GM's ALWAYS roll encounters on the encounter tables. They shouldn't cherry-pick monsters or abilities for said monsters." (Even though they don't.)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

@Kelpstrand;
At unoptimised 20th, a dragon or outsider with SR 30-32 means 50% failure chance vs SR and the enemy only fails save on a 4 or lower (save for a balor is +24 minimum, for dragon about the same except for reflex)
At optimised 20th, your CL is 23-24 without bead of karma, 27-28 with the bead. +10 SR for assay resistance, +2 archmage robe, +4 feats means you roll 1d20+44. In order to fail 50% of the time, you NEED to face SR 54.

[Frosty]

@Kelpstrand;
At unoptimised 20th, a dragon or outsider with SR 30-32 means 50% failure chance vs SR and the enemy only fails save on a 4 or lower (save for a balor is +24 minimum, for dragon about the same except for reflex)
At optimised 20th, your CL is 23-24 without bead of karma, 27-28 with the bead. +10 SR for assay resistance, +2 archmage robe, +4 feats means you roll 1d20+44. In order to fail 50% of the time, you NEED to face SR 54.

People take Spell penetration and Greater SP? :smallconfused: I can see the 23-24 without Karma beads if you take levels in Archmage and have one of them Ioun stones. And bump up to 25-26 with a robe of the archmagi, and if they prepare Assasu spell resistance then they auto-pass most SR. but the solution is to then throw 5 or 6 Balors or Dragons at them at once. Did the wizard prepare 6 Assay Spell Resistances today? Were you smart and banned Spontaneous Divination for the Wizard?

[Eldritch_Ent]

People take Spell penetration and Greater SP? :smallconfused: I can see the 23-24 without Karma beads if you take levels in Archmage and have one of them Ioun stones. And bump up to 25-26 with a robe of the archmagi, and if they prepare Assasu spell resistance then they auto-pass most SR. but the solution is to then throw 5 or 6 Balors or Dragons at them at once. Did the wizard prepare 6 Assay Spell Resistances today? Were you smart and banned Spontaneous Divination for the Wizard?

People take Archmage for Spell Power and not mastery of shaping or Spell-like ability? :smallconfused:

Generally, the paranoid wizard wouldn't take Assay more than once or twice a day, since they'd probably focus on one or two large targets at a time before retreating to their MMM. And there is no way he'd cast it on EVERYTHING, especially if he's conjuration focused for the no-SR no-Save spells it offers. (Like Orb of X, or good ol' Solid Fog.) Assay is generally saved for the boss monster, to land that debilitating single debuff, like Slow or whatnot.


And there is a good chance that the player of a non-optimized wizard wouldn't even have heard about Assay Spell Resistance at all.