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awa
2009-07-29, 10:30 PM
I hear all this talk about wizards at higher level being literally unbeatable but their are some things im unclear on.

Most of the wizards are unbeatable threads seem to be assuming the wizard has every spell but don't wizards need to buy their spells? wouldn't they be limited by what spells they could afford/ find?

I hear talk about contingencies making it so no one would every be able to get the drop on a wizard but aren't you only aloud one contingencies and if its set to go off as soon as your attacked wouldn't it just get wasted?

Alot of the discussions seem to advocate casting divination all the time on every thing wouldn't that just burn through all your spells slots super fast leaving you vulnerable later in the day?

Wouldn't something like a willo-wisp with broad spell immunity be very dangerous to a wizard ( i know they could summon a monster to kill it but then that means that every day they need to have several summon spells prepared)

Maybe its just me but it seems like these threads are assuming the wizards always know what their going to be fighting and have all the time in the world to prepare spells.

Now that said i'm curious about the answer maybe theirs some part of the equation i'm missing.

Doc Roc
2009-07-29, 10:35 PM
Unless you ban planar travel, finding spells tends to be pretty easy. Just make it to sigil and you're golden.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-29, 10:38 PM
I agree with awa.
I personally don't find Wizards as broken and invincible as claimed.

Even seriously min/maxing and optimising a wizard and getting as many spells as I can wrangle out of a DM I am often over-shadowed by the other players, particularly if we have a real test of endurance.

As a DM I've found Wizards exceptionally easy to nerf just by not allowed a few key spells. I have far more trouble keep psions in line than Wizards.

jmbrown
2009-07-29, 10:40 PM
I hear all this talk about wizards at higher level being literally unbeatable but their are some things im unclear on.

Most of the wizards are unbeatable threads seem to be assuming the wizard has every spell but don't wizards need to buy their spells? wouldn't they be limited by what spells they could afford/ find?

I hear talk about contingencies making it so no one would every be able to get the drop on a wizard but aren't you only aloud one contingencies and if its set to go off as soon as your attacked wouldn't it just get wasted?

Alot of the discussions seem to advocate casting divination all the time on every thing wouldn't that just burn through all your spells slots super fast leaving you vulnerable later in the day?

Wouldn't something like a willo-wisp with broad spell immunity be very dangerous to a wizard ( i know they could summon a monster to kill it but then that means that every day they need to have several summon spells prepared)

Maybe its just me but it seems like these threads are assuming the wizards always know what their going to be fighting and have all the time in the world to prepare spells.

Now that said i'm curious about the answer maybe theirs some part of the equation i'm missing.

Yes, most threads do assume the wizard has foreword knowledge of what he's encountering. However, some spells are good in 90% of the situations you're in.

Fly is almost always useful. Greater invisibility as well. Glitterdust is way overpowered for a 2nd level spell. Time stop gives you a ridiculous advantage over your opponents. Wall of force is not only invisible but blocks everything. Prismatic spray/wall is another spell that's nearly always useful. Teleport lets you bypass entire sections especially if you manage to scry on someone/locate object/arcane eye/prying eye the space beforehand.

Most of the overpowered/broken spells can be memorized once or twice and you're pretty much good for the entire day. Ultimately, a wizard's access depends entirely on what the DM says is available. The topics assume everything costs the default price and is readily available because we're judging the classes in an objective manner based on the rules-as-written.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 10:40 PM
Most of the wizards are unbeatable threads seem to be assuming the wizard has every spell but don't wizards need to buy their spells? wouldn't they be limited by what spells they could afford/ find?
You don't need to have many spells to be extremely powerful. There are tier two sorcerer builds that are virtually unkillable unless by extraordinary methods, and they are more limited in what they can cast than wizards.



I hear talk about contingencies making it so no one would every be able to get the drop on a wizard but aren't you only aloud one contingencies and if its set to go off as soon as your attacked wouldn't it just get wasted?

Either make the contingency really good or use Craft: Contingent spell for multiple contingencies.



Alot of the discussions seem to advocate casting divination all the time on every thing wouldn't that just burn through all your spells slots super fast leaving you vulnerable later in the day?

One Divination spell allows you to know what will happen for the next week. Contact Other Plane, I believe.


Wouldn't something like a willo-wisp with broad spell immunity be very dangerous to a wizard ( i know they could summon a monster to kill it but then that means that every day they need to have several summon spells prepared)

Gate is always a good spell to have on hand.

Alternatively, Orb of Force or Shapechange.


Maybe its just me but it seems like these threads are assuming the wizards always know what their going to be fighting and have all the time in the world to prepare spells.
Not only does Divination allow you to do that, but you only need a few spells to be very effective.

jmbrown
2009-07-29, 10:45 PM
I forgot to mention that the wizard's most powerful spells have nothing to do with direct combat. Fly, greater invisibility, gate, time stop, etc. can all be purchased as scrolls. Once you hit a level or two higher than when the spells are introduced, the WBL is so high that you can purchase multiple copies cheaply.

9mm
2009-07-29, 10:45 PM
I hear all this talk about wizards at higher level being literally unbeatable but their are some things im unclear on.

Most of the wizards are unbeatable threads seem to be assuming the wizard has every spell but don't wizards need to buy their spells? wouldn't they be limited by what spells they could afford/ find?[quote]
as Tide pointed out, once you travel the multiverse you can find anything.

[quote]
I hear talk about contingencies making it so no one would every be able to get the drop on a wizard but aren't you only aloud one contingencies and if its set to go off as soon as your attacked wouldn't it just get wasted?

Thanks to Craft Contingent Spell, you can have as many contingencies as you want, and they will almost always be Time Stop.


Alot of the discussions seem to advocate casting divination all the time on every thing wouldn't that just burn through all your spells slots super fast leaving you vulnerable later in the day?
Not really, no, they have so much and a contingenced time stop would give them all the time they need to either murder you, or escape usaually.


Wouldn't something like a willo-wisp with broad spell immunity be very dangerous to a wizard ( i know they could summon a monster to kill it but then that means that every day they need to have several summon spells prepared)
Most wizards have at least a dagger and crossbow when things get that ugly. +any number of spells that turn the mage into a melee murder machine.


Maybe its just me but it seems like these threads are assuming the wizards always know what their going to be fighting and have all the time in the world to prepare spells.

That's because they usually do, a well informed ANYTHING is far more dangerous than an ambushed one, but since Greater Teleport + insert scy spell here = no chance of ambush/random encounter taking them out is hard as crap, espetially most would just prepare inside a ropetrick or a custom demi-plane.

erikun
2009-07-29, 10:46 PM
True, you assume that the wizard has access to any spell available. Then again, the rules state that you choose any spell to add to your spellbook at level up, so unless the DM restricts which spells can be added....

Plus, the gold component is pretty meaningless at higher levels. Sure, you spend 900 gold to add a level 9 spell to your book... but when you have around one million plus gold? Pocket change.

Honestly, crafting/buying wands and magic items for every contengency are more of a problem, but not too much. After all, what is a Will-o-Wisp going to do to you? They need to use a touch attack for any damage, and you can just Polymorph yourself into something that deals damage on a hit. Or just teleport away and do something else.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-29, 10:55 PM
I think someone should actually stat up this invincible wizard. If we had an actual list of spells that the quintessential 20th level Wizard had prepared to default to, we'd have an actual basis for comparisons and "kill the wizard" scenarios. Of course, it would change if he got information on his opponent(s), but we should at least make a spell list for the typical day.

lsfreak
2009-07-29, 10:58 PM
Slow: Non-mind-affecting Will save that drops outcoming damage to a fraction and keeps your allies from ever being in melee if they don't want to be.

Web: Reflex save that keeps something from moving hardly at all even with a successful save. You can escape or pick them off at your leisure.

Stinking Cloud: Fortitude save that prevents all attacks and spellcasts.

There. Three second or third-level spells, that take no aforementioned knowledge, are purely core, and can singlehandedly take out entire encounters before the surprise round is over. By 3rd level when you first get these, the save DC's can already be 17 or 18, which hardly anything at those levels can make, and you can boost the saves via Heighten Spell or just pick new spells that do the same thing (and often better) at high levels.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 11:01 PM
I think someone should actually stat up this invincible wizard. If we had an actual list of spells that the quintessential 20th level Wizard had prepared to default to, we'd have an actual basis for comparisons and "kill the wizard" scenarios. Of course, it would change if he got information on his opponent(s), but we should at least make a spell list for the typical day.

Sorcerer, core only (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27364)

This was designed for a Test of Spite duel that never got played.

It would challenge a lot of core and non-core melee characters, and is less powerful than a core only wizard. I will have no divination based warnings that a fighter or monk will be trying to attack me, for example.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 11:06 PM
Plus, the gold component is pretty meaningless at higher levels. Sure, you spend 900 gold to add a level 9 spell to your book... but when you have around one million plus gold? Pocket change.

The wealth of a level 20 character is 760,000. They'll have maybe 6 level 9 spells for free, and each scroll at level 9 is 3500-4500 gp. Yeah, they can afford it, but they're still cutting into their money that they have to use for all of their magic gear, plus, if they leave nothing left over, they don't have money left for researching Epic spells on their next level. Which is friggin' expensive. Just an example: Epic Mage Armor = 410,000 gp to research. According to WBL, they're gaining 215,000 gp between level 20 and 21. The prices of all those scrolls add up. Plus the Blessed Books you need to buy to house them all.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 11:07 PM
I think someone should actually stat up this invincible wizard. If we had an actual list of spells that the quintessential 20th level Wizard had prepared to default to, we'd have an actual basis for comparisons and "kill the wizard" scenarios. Of course, it would change if he got information on his opponent(s), but we should at least make a spell list for the typical day.

Good thing the wizard doesn't automatically find out, 'cause that'd be metagame-silliness territory.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 11:07 PM
If the Mage is Epic level, there is no competition from non-spellcasters period.

lsfreak
2009-07-29, 11:12 PM
-snip-

RAW, you can trade spells to another wizard for free or copy a spell for 50gp/lvl, no need to buy a scroll. Grand total cost for a spell without using Secret Page is 150gp per spell level.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 11:16 PM
Slow: Non-mind-affecting Will save that drops outcoming damage to a fraction and keeps your allies from ever being in melee if they don't want to be.

Web: Reflex save that keeps something from moving hardly at all even with a successful save. You can escape or pick them off at your leisure.

Stinking Cloud: Fortitude save that prevents all attacks and spellcasts.

There. Three second or third-level spells, that take no aforementioned knowledge, are purely core, and can singlehandedly take out entire encounters before the surprise round is over. By 3rd level when you first get these, the save DC's can already be 17 or 18, which hardly anything at those levels can make, and you can boost the saves via Heighten Spell or just pick new spells that do the same thing (and often better) at high levels.

First of all, you'd only be getting Web at 3rd level. At 3rd level, the Ettercap, for example, can make the same vs. Web on a 13, and if it succeeds, it can then Web you in return, and I bet you aren't succeeding yours unless you're really lucky.

Or, say, a dragon wyrmling could use its breath weapon to blast through the webs. Assuming it doesn't also roll a 13 on its save.

An ogre could definitely make the strength DC to burst it.

5th level, you get Slow and Stinking Cloud.

The basilisk can make the Fort save for Stinking Cloud without trying. It could make the save vs. Slow if it's lucky, but then, if you're not fighting it with your eyes closed, then you're subject to its gaze attack.

A Gibbering Mouther can make both saves without much difficulty. And then you have to make a save vs. blindness which you have less of a chance of succeeding on than it has against your spells.

A very young dragon can make the saves without trying.

Troll can make the fort save without trying and can succeed on will with luck.

Same for Winter Wolf.

Green Hag can make the saves easily...

Blah blah blah, a bunch of other monsters.

Saph
2009-07-29, 11:17 PM
Wizards are strong, not unstoppable. At higher levels they're up there with the best classes. That doesn't mean they're unbeatable.

Skill > build > class. A well-built high-level caster will be stronger than an averagely-built high-level wizard. A well-played high-level anything will be stronger than a stupidly played high-level wizard. It doesn't matter what's written on your character sheet if you don't know how to make the most of it. :)

- Saph

Milskidasith
2009-07-29, 11:22 PM
Basically all casting classes are going to totally destroy melee classes of the same level. They just have way too much stuff. At lower levels, it's more iffy, because spellcasting classes, while not weak by any means, are generally squishy enough to die in one good hit but can also kill a melee class with a spell. At higher levels, just ignore the "squishy" part; they will be able to buff up so much a melee class will actually be worse than the spellcaster at beating stuff up.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 11:25 PM
First of all, you'd only be getting Web at 3rd level. At 3rd level, the Ettercap, for example, can make the same vs. Web on a 13, and if it succeeds, it can then Web you in return, and I bet you aren't succeeding yours unless you're really lucky.

Or, say, a dragon wyrmling could use its breath weapon to blast through the webs. Assuming it doesn't also roll a 13 on its save.

An ogre could definitely make the strength DC to burst it.

5th level, you get Slow and Stinking Cloud.

The basilisk can make the Fort save for Stinking Cloud without trying. It could make the save vs. Slow if it's lucky, but then, if you're not fighting it with your eyes closed, then you're subject to its gaze attack.

A Gibbering Mouther can make both saves without much difficulty. And then you have to make a save vs. blindness which you have less of a chance of succeeding on than it has against your spells.

A very young dragon can make the saves without trying.

Troll can make the fort save without trying and can succeed on will with luck.

Same for Winter Wolf.

Green Hag can make the saves easily...

Blah blah blah, a bunch of other monsters.

Good thing Solid Fog, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, and Enervation don't allow saves.

9mm
2009-07-29, 11:26 PM
-snip-

now do that for the REST of the BC and Save or lose the wizard has access to; take grease for example, did the monsters remember to put ranks in balance? Or Glitterdust? Or Evards Tentacle Rape? or... you get the idea.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 11:29 PM
Good thing Solid Fog, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, and Enervation don't allow saves.

Eh. Fair enough, Core's screwed up. But I changed it so the latter three allow Fortitude saves. So, really, the people who are hurt the most by level draining is spellcasters themselves.

lsfreak
2009-07-29, 11:30 PM
-snip-

I'm not trying to counter specific monsters. In general, those spells are good ones to have prepared, because they're so useful and they affect multiple enemies. Most of the things you listed are still only making their saves half the time, and a 50% chance of taking out an entire encounter before it starts is still really good. Also, wizards aren't just cast random spells - if it's got a big weapon and armor, you don't use Stinking Cloud, you use Slow, or Glitterdust, or Dominate Person. So it doesn't matter if they make the Fort save 100% of the time if they fail the Will save 80%.

The point is, with a few well-prepared spells, you can counter almost anything, provided you're smart about who you target with what. It's not unstoppable (until you run around with 15+ different Contingencies on you while being Astral Projection'd), but it's damn good. And when things go south, you have things like Teleport or Solid Fog that are nearly foolproof at their level to get out before something bad happens.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 11:32 PM
Eh. Fair enough, Core's screwed up. But I changed it so the latter three allow Fortitude saves. So, really, the people who are hurt the most by level draining is spellcasters themselves.

Well, and rogues.

Myrmex
2009-07-29, 11:34 PM
I agree with awa.
I personally don't find Wizards as broken and invincible as claimed.

Even seriously min/maxing and optimising a wizard and getting as many spells as I can wrangle out of a DM I am often over-shadowed by the other players, particularly if we have a real test of endurance.

As a DM I've found Wizards exceptionally easy to nerf just by not allowed a few key spells. I have far more trouble keep psions in line than Wizards.

What level do you play your wizards at?

Milskidasith
2009-07-29, 11:36 PM
Eh. Fair enough, Core's screwed up. But I changed it so the latter three allow Fortitude saves. So, really, the people who are hurt the most by level draining is spellcasters themselves.

By allowing fort saves, you just bump clerics up to be even better! And they were already great.

The point is, you can't change a few things and hope to make spellcasting classes balanced. You can get rid of some of the cheese, but even if you give them spells on par with bashing stuff, they still have so much more variety it isn't funny.

Myrmex
2009-07-29, 11:36 PM
Well, and rogues.

Harder to hit, due to dex often being a primary stat, and NPC casters not having the resources to boost their dex competitively.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 11:37 PM
By allowing fort saves, you just bump clerics up to be even better! And they were already great.

The point is, you can't change a few things and hope to make spellcasting classes balanced. You can get rid of some of the cheese, but even if you give them spells on par with bashing stuff, they still have so much more variety it isn't funny.

And they can still only cast 1 spell per round, unless they choose to sacrifice a spell slot 4 levels higher. Variety is the entire point of wizards. The problem is not with wizards, but rather, the spells.

Milskidasith
2009-07-29, 11:40 PM
And they can still only cast 1 spell per round, unless they choose to sacrifice a spell slot 4 levels higher. Variety is the entire point of wizards. The problem is not with wizards, but rather, the spells.

Obviously. I never said they cast multiple spells per round, or that the wizard class was good (It's crap! Terrible features besides arcane casting). The spells are nutty, and they need to be cut back, but it's really hard to do. In order to make the wizard a T3 class, you would need to drastically limit their variety. A good way to do this would be to have one/two school wizards (there is something in the homebrew forums similar to that), and making spells harder to obtain.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 11:41 PM
Harder to hit, due to dex often being a primary stat, and NPC casters not having the resources to boost their dex competitively.

True Strike is a first level spell. You have to either be a Choker via Shapechange, Quicken it, or spend two rounds casting, but it's far from impossible.

Myrmex
2009-07-29, 11:43 PM
By allowing fort saves, you just bump clerics up to be even better! And they were already great.

Hardly. The real effect is on high HD, high con monsters, like giants or dragons. They now are much MUCH scarier, since debilitating ranged touch attacks are not nearly as useful against them.

It also means that any plate warrior doesn't get disabled at the drop of a hat (or a first level spell). Deathward, for clerics, means that Enervation and other level draining abilities have never threatened them, anyway.


True Strike is a first level spell. You have to either be a Choker via Shapechange, Quicken it, or spend two rounds casting, but it's far from impossible.

....kay?

Zeful
2009-07-29, 11:48 PM
And they can still only cast 1 spell per round, unless they choose to sacrifice a spell slot 4 levels higher. Variety is the entire point of wizards. The problem is not with wizards, but rather, the spells.

Which is why no one can fix them, people are greedy and will always want the best option. If you rewrite all the spells, then people are going to want to take the original versions.

So the best option would be to unilaterally ban all spell casting classes.

Jergmo
2009-07-29, 11:53 PM
Hardly. The real effect is on high HD, high con monsters, like giants or dragons. They now are much MUCH scarier, since debilitating ranged touch attacks are not nearly as useful against them.

Well, dragons are supposed to face entire groups alone, and it's a lot better than handing the rogue a Scroll of Maximized Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement while the wizard casts it as well, and then they make the dragon collapse on itself in 2 rounds at most. If dragons are so easy to cripple, why should anyone take the classes that specialize in defeating dragons?


Which is why no one can fix them, people are greedy and will always want the best option. If you rewrite all the spells, then people are going to want to take the original versions.

So the best option would be to unilaterally ban all spell casting classes.

Then you tell them "Too bad."

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-29, 11:58 PM
We're straying from the topic. I reiterate the last on topic statement I made, which was using a core only general purpose sorcerer as an example of what can be done with an arcane caster with limited spells known.

Wings of Peace
2009-07-29, 11:59 PM
I think someone should actually stat up this invincible wizard. If we had an actual list of spells that the quintessential 20th level Wizard had prepared to default to, we'd have an actual basis for comparisons and "kill the wizard" scenarios. Of course, it would change if he got information on his opponent(s), but we should at least make a spell list for the typical day.

Those are dangerous words to use. The "quintessential" wizard would have cheezed himself up a way to get supernatural True Creation spells for infinite money to purchase spells or just cheezed himself a way of gaining all spells, and would have an infinite number of spells per day via some complex manner of cheese or basic but blatant Faustian Pact abuse combined with Arcane Manipulation.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-30, 12:13 AM
I agree with awa.
I personally don't find Wizards as broken and invincible as claimed.

Even seriously min/maxing and optimising a wizard and getting as many spells as I can wrangle out of a DM I am often over-shadowed by the other players, particularly if we have a real test of endurance.

As a DM I've found Wizards exceptionally easy to nerf just by not allowed a few key spells. I have far more trouble keep psions in line than Wizards.

Immediate action: Cast Celerity.

Standard action from Celerity: Sudden Maximize, Sudden Extended Time Stop.

The Wizard now has 9 rounds worth of actions. This is the least you have to worry about. Astral Projection is on a whole different level of broken, and other spells just make it worse.


Even without major answers like this, the Wizard is still capable of shutting down entire encounters with single actions. Grease, Solid Fog, Cloudkill, Forcecage, Resilient Sphere, there's answers to every problem even without the most powerful spells in existence. Ban enough spells, and you leave the Wizard with the weakest schools (Evocation and Enchantment), and even those have tricks up their sleeves (Dominate Person, to name one for Enchantment, entire Nova-builds for Evocation).










The Wizard's base class isn't overpowered at all. The spell list is. I suggest a blanket ban on the Wizard's spells, and then reallowing spells on a case-by-case basis. This way, the player has to pass every single spell by you, and you have absolute control over his abilities. He's still able to contribute, but he has been reigned in. The answer isn't to ban key spells, it's to ration all spells period.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-30, 12:21 AM
First, you need a way to go after the Wizard without him finding out about it through Divinations(if he knows you're coming, you die before getting an action to a horde of monsters Teleported in by an Astral Projection). Then you have to get to him. Whether through Genesis abuse, an entire Dimension Locked adamantine building, or just an impenetrable tower on the moon, the Wizard can sleep secure in a way no other class can. He can create an area that is impossible to access except for one specific way, then make it impossible to discover that way except through trial and error(where errors result in your soul contributing the XP for his new Ring of Jumping). Then, once you get into his haven, you have to fight through his horde of Mindraped/Undead/Planar Bound guards, most of which are CR 25 or higher. Meanwhile, you're dealing with the dozens of magical traps that are no-save, just die that his guards are intentionally caling down on all of your heads. And of course, the entire time this is happening, he is either buffing/prepping, or he's fled to his better-hidden but no less impregnable secondary stronghold. Then you have to survive the surprise round(Dire Tortise) where he casts 2 spells(Choker) and then wins Init to cast 2 more(not counting Quicken) and then Celerities for another 2. And then you have to find and hit his Superior Invisible+Mindblanked(cast before you came in) ass without triggering his Contingency.

Good luck.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 12:25 AM
First, you need a way to go after the Wizard without him finding out about it through Divinations(if he knows you're coming, you die before getting an action to a horde of monsters Teleported in by an Astral Projection). Then you have to get to him. Whether through Genesis abuse, an entire Dimension Locked adamantine building, or just an impenetrable tower on the moon, the Wizard can sleep secure in a way no other class can. He can create an area that is impossible to access except for one specific way, then make it impossible to discover that way except through trial and error(where errors result in your soul contributing the XP for his new Ring of Jumping). Then, once you get into his haven, you have to fight through his horde of Mindraped/Undead/Planar Bound guards, most of which are CR 25 or higher. Meanwhile, you're dealing with the dozens of magical traps that are no-save, just die that his guards are intentionally caling down on all of your heads. And of course, the entire time this is happening, he is either buffing/prepping, or he's fled to his better-hidden but no less impregnable secondary stronghold. Then you have to survive the surprise round(Dire Tortise) where he casts 2 spells(Choker) and then wins Init to cast 2 more(not counting Quicken) and then Celerities for another 2. And then you have to find and hit his Superior Invisible+Mindblanked(cast before you came in) ass without triggering his Contingency.

Good luck.

If you want to know how this is possible, the minions can be made/summoned, the strongholds crafted with a Lyre of Building given to a summoned monster with high charisma, and the traps made by yourself.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-30, 12:27 AM
First, you need a way to go after the Wizard without him finding out about it through Divinations(if he knows you're coming, you die before getting an action to a horde of monsters Teleported in by an Astral Projection). Then you have to get to him. Whether through Genesis abuse, an entire Dimension Locked adamantine building, or just an impenetrable tower on the moon, the Wizard can sleep secure in a way no other class can. He can create an area that is impossible to access except for one specific way, then make it impossible to discover that way except through trial and error(where errors result in your soul contributing the XP for his new Ring of Jumping). Then, once you get into his haven, you have to fight through his horde of Mindraped/Undead/Planar Bound guards, most of which are CR 25 or higher. Meanwhile, you're dealing with the dozens of magical traps that are no-save, just die that his guards are intentionally caling down on all of your heads. And of course, the entire time this is happening, he is either buffing/prepping, or he's fled to his better-hidden but no less impregnable secondary stronghold. Then you have to survive the surprise round(Dire Tortise) where he casts 2 spells(Choker) and then wins Init to cast 2 more(not counting Quicken) and then Celerities for another 2. And then you have to find and hit his Superior Invisible+Mindblanked(cast before you came in) ass without triggering his Contingency.

Good luck.

And this doesn't even begin to cover the specific buffs a Wizard is able to cast on himself and his minions. Even minor spells, such as Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Displacement, Greater Mirror Image, Nerveskitter, and countless other buffs can all be used to efficiently deal with thousands of possible scenarios.

Demons_eye
2009-07-30, 12:30 AM
A Gray Elf wizard with the Elf Wizard sub levels and the Collegiate Wizard feat get 5 spells per level instead of 2 so if scrolls are hard to come by then there is always this. Or do this and reduce the need to find scrolls.

JonestheSpy
2009-07-30, 01:00 AM
I notice that a lot of the folks in the "wizards are always teh awesome!" camp rely on all sorts of preconditions that I think are ridiculous. Cheesey splatbook stuff like multiple contingencies and Celerity, or the assumption that it's no particular trouble for any wizard in any campaign world to have knowledge of a city like Sigil AND convenient access to it. Not to mention giveaways like divinations that are always 100% accurate and easy to interpret.

Even in core, I personally got a problem with the whole idea that any magic item is available for sale if you've got the cash, along with a ridiculous wealth-by-level guide. I can't fault folks for going by those since they're so clearly deliniated in the DMG, but I just throw that stuff out on the rubbish heap where it belongs. No, if you want to burn the XP to craft your own items it should be your choice (though I have a little houserule about spellcraft checks with big penalties if the caster didn't actually craft the item themselves), but the whole idea of of being able to shell out some otherwise-meaningless treasure to cherry pick and optimize the boop out of your magic arsenal just drives me crazy. I just don't think heroic fantasy and the Shopping Channel go well together.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 01:02 AM
My build is core only and doesn't depend much on gear or multiple contingencies. Seems to be pretty strong regardless.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:03 AM
Well, it's mostly being done to drive a point home about what they're capable of accomplishing and how it should not have been allowed, because it only takes a little bit of leniency, a little bit of lack of foresight, and a little bit of jerkass to cause some runaway tension kills when you get to medium-experience optimizers with them. In effect - due to player error, most players not being power hungry jerks, roleplay - they tend to be closer to what Saph said.

And as Pharaoh mentioned, it's not the splat that's breaking it. The splat is just what's not helping.

Sinfire Titan
2009-07-30, 01:09 AM
I notice that a lot of the folks in the "wizards are always teh awesome!" camp rely on all sorts of preconditions that I think are ridiculous. Cheesey splatbook stuff like multiple contingencies and Celerity, or the assumption that it's no particular trouble for any wizard in any campaign world to have knowledge of a city like Sigil AND convenient access to it. Not to mention giveaways like divinations that are always 100% accurate and easy to interpret.

Even in core, I personally got a problem with the whole idea that any magic item is available for sale if you've got the cash, along with a ridiculous wealth-by-level guide. I can't fault folks for going by those since they're so clearly deliniated in the DMG, but I just throw that stuff out on the rubbish heap where it belongs. No, if you want to burn the XP to craft your own items it should be your choice (though I have a little houserule about spellcraft checks with big penalties if the caster didn't actually craft the item themselves), but the whole idea of of being able to shell out some otherwise-meaningless treasure to cherry pick and optimize the boop out of your magic arsenal just drives me crazy. I just don't think heroic fantasy and the Shopping Channel go well together.

Even in Core, there's still problems (some of which have no Foci worth pricing). Simple Battlefield Control or Buff spells, Time Stop, Gate, any Summon Monster spell above 3rd level, any Save or Die, Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Idiocy, the list goes on.

And in all technicallity, it's fully possible to make a Wizard who's Int never exceeds 25 (20 base, +5 from levels). He'd still be able to take on anything in the MM, all he has to do is avoid spells that offer a saving throw/take feats that boost the saves of his spells. Enough debuffs, and everything is vulnerable to his mere 25 Int score.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-30, 01:33 AM
I notice that a lot of the folks in the "wizards are always teh awesome!" camp rely on all sorts of preconditions that I think are ridiculous. Cheesey splatbook stuff like multiple contingencies and Celerity, or the assumption that it's no particular trouble for any wizard in any campaign world to have knowledge of a city like Sigil AND convenient access to it. Not to mention giveaways like divinations that are always 100% accurate and easy to interpret.

Even in core, I personally got a problem with the whole idea that any magic item is available for sale if you've got the cash, along with a ridiculous wealth-by-level guide. I can't fault folks for going by those since they're so clearly deliniated in the DMG, but I just throw that stuff out on the rubbish heap where it belongs. No, if you want to burn the XP to craft your own items it should be your choice (though I have a little houserule about spellcraft checks with big penalties if the caster didn't actually craft the item themselves), but the whole idea of of being able to shell out some otherwise-meaningless treasure to cherry pick and optimize the boop out of your magic arsenal just drives me crazy. I just don't think heroic fantasy and the Shopping Channel go well together.I delibrately left most of what I did either Core or undefined(but doable Core), and fairly gear/build-independant. A Wizard can get huge hordes of minions fairly easily(Planar Binding+Programmed Amnesia, Mindrape, Create Undead). He's second only to a Diplomancer for sheer power at that. Wizards can get a base in a location that no one other than a caster can reach(say, the moon), no caster could locate with Divinations to reach(under a hundred feet of moon rock, not to mention spells that block divinations), and is Dimension Locked except for one square that triggers about 20 deathtraps when anyone steps on it that isn't the Wizard(costs Gold but not XP, and you should be able to get gold fairly easily at this point). Core-only. So now the Wizard has a horde of extraplanar monsters of at least 5 CRs higher than him, a base that is nigh-impregnable and rough to find, he gets warning of any attacking force because his minions fight them off so he can buff, and worst case scenario he retreats to a fallback position with similar fortifications that is actually harder to find because he isn't there yet.

JonestheSpy
2009-07-30, 01:33 AM
Well, of course a high level wizard is still going to be way tough, but I'm just saying that the ridiculous invincibility scenarios are still pretty easily weeded out.

Also, while I'll agree that a wizard or other spellcaster may well be guarunteed to win a single encounter if they go full blast, one of the big balancing factors that they should have to limit themselves because they don't know what's happening next - even with divination help. A caster who uses five or six spells in an encounter will be significantly weakened, while a melee combatant or rogue can be good as new with a bit of healing and even if they do take significant damage, their abilities stay constant.

And a wizard may take down a mob of foes with Grease, but unless said wizard uses that advatage to run away, they'll need someone to actually dispatch those enemies before they recover.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:37 AM
Well, of course a high level wizard is still going to be way tough, but I'm just saying that the ridiculous invincibility scenarios are still pretty easily weeded out.

Also, while I'll agree that a wizard or other spellcaster may well be guarunteed to win a single encounter if they go full blast, one of the big balancing factors that they should have to limit themselves because they don't know what's happening next - even with divination help. A caster who uses five or six spells in an encounter will be significantly weakened, while a melee combatant or rogue can be good as new with a bit of healing and even if they do take significant damage, their abilities stay constant.

Aside from the fact that wizards don't get significantly weakened until 3 or 4 encounters in a day (and that's without heavy crafting, which is generally the best thing you should be doing due to how WotC decided to make you expend effort - low amounts of XP) - it's very hard to force him to get into more combats than he wants to have. Even I've made wizards that genesised their own demiplane with a handful of useful traits and a stronghold.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-07-30, 01:38 AM
Also, while I'll agree that a wizard or other spellcaster may well be guarunteed to win a single encounter if they go full blast, one of the big balancing factors that they should have to limit themselves because they don't know what's happening next - even with divination help. A caster who uses five or six spells in an encounter will be significantly weakened, while a melee combatant or rogue can be good as new with a bit of healing and even if they do take significant damage, their abilities stay constant.Most of what I did is set up beforehand, and used to prevent enemies from ever reaching the Wizard. It requires no spell slots after setup other than replacing fallen minions, and careful minion selection will get you ones that can cast the spells for you. And really, if you face more than one encounter a day like that(actual encounters, not ones where you're actually an Astral Projection or riding in a minion through Magic Jar or something), you're doing something wrong(or your DM is hitting you with CR 30s, but at that point I cn't help you).
And a wizard may take down a mob of foes with Grease, but unless said wizard uses that advatage to run away, they'll need someone to actually dispatch those enemies before they recover.Ogre Skeleton.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-07-30, 01:44 AM
Heres a bit of comparison...

The first time I built a high level optimized wizard that I actually intended to play (Test of Spite, made her 2 days ago), I discovered a new infinite loop.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 01:55 AM
Speaking of which, I invite those of you in doubt of the mojo of a caster to step into my office Lair! demesne, the Test of Spite. I will personally adjudicate up to three trials of your choice, or arrange, design, and deploy a test similar to the monkening for you to examine the over-all difference in power levels. IF you opt for the latter, you should help find me a GM.

Saph
2009-07-30, 02:07 AM
Eh, some of you guys are really going over the top here.

Yes, Wizards are good. Possibly even the joint-strongest class, once you get to high enough level. But assuming your DM is moderately competent, they aren't game-breaking.

I've been running and playing in games for quite some time. Pretty much every party I've been in has had a Wizard or equivalent, and they've never been unstoppable. I've seen parties where a Wizard was the strongest character in the party, sure. I've also seen parties where a Wizard was the weakest character in the party (sometimes even the same party).

There are a lot of full casters in the D&D world, and there are a lot of monsters. As long as you have enough basic common sense to disallow the truly broken stuff (no, you aren't allowed to get infinite wealth, the WBL table is there for a reason) the game's perfectly playable.

- Saph

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 02:11 AM
I'm not saying that they're game breaking juggernauts in actual practice. I'm saying there's a palpable, perhaps tremendously wide, power gap that leads to them being tremendously difficult opponents in practice. That said, a high level wizard with full kit and spells accessible fills me with terror. I hate playing them, building them, running them, the works.

PId6
2009-07-30, 02:12 AM
I've seen parties where a Wizard was the strongest character in the party, sure. I've also seen parties where a Wizard was the weakest character in the party (sometimes even the same party).
Oooh ooh ooh! I know this one! Is it a party of all wizards? :smalltongue:

Saph
2009-07-30, 02:22 AM
Oooh ooh ooh! I know this one! Is it a party of all wizards? :smalltongue:

*smacks PI with a large trout*

No. :P

Fairly mixed party, actually. In rough power order, they went: Wizard/Loremaster, Cleric/Doomguide, Fighter, Rogue/Fighter/Assassin, Bard, Wizard. (And before anyone else tells me how it's not supposed to work that way, remember the Skill > Build > Class rule. :smalltongue:)

- Saph

JonestheSpy
2009-07-30, 02:25 AM
I delibrately left most of what I did either Core or undefined(but doable Core), and fairly gear/build-independant.

Actually, I am rather of the opinion that your following paragraph is the complete opposite of that statement.


A Wizard can get huge hordes of minions fairly easily(Planar Binding+Programmed Amnesia, Mindrape, Create Undead).

No, they can't. Planar Binding is severely limited and risky, Programmed Amnesia and Mindrape are non-core, and Create Undead does NOT give the wizard control of the creature they create.


Wizards can get a base in a location that no one other than a caster can reach (say, the moon)

Okay, see, that's just as cheesey as my point about Sigil being as easy to access as the nearest Walmart. It seems to me that you're just going on the assumption that because you the player knows all about the moon, your character does. Oh and where does that contanstly replenishing supply of air come from? How did your character even know enough about the moon to teleport there, let alone know that they'd have to deal with no oxygen and temperatures that swing between -387 degrees to 253?


Dimension Locked except for one square that triggers about 20 deathtraps when anyone steps on it that isn't the Wizard(costs Gold but not XP, and you should be able to get gold fairly easily at this point).

Okay, maybe I missed something, but I certainly don't remember anything in the core books about building traps that can identify a single person and kill everyone else.


So now the Wizard has a horde of extraplanar monsters of at least 5 CRs higher than him, a base that is nigh-impregnable and rough to find, he gets warning of any attacking force because his minions fight them off so he can buff, and worst case scenario he retreats to a fallback position with similar fortifications that is actually harder to find because he isn't there yet.

I'd say what we have is a DM not very familiar with the rules letting a player get away with ridiculous abuse, but hey, that's just me.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-30, 02:25 AM
What level do you play your wizards at?

Unless we start above level 3 we play from level 1 upwards.
Rarely does the Wizard even survive, let alone make it past level 10.

But I have played a level 25 Wizard before and I am running a game on another site with a whole heap of gestalt spellcasters. The Wizards are extremely powerful, all of the casters are. There is no doubt that Wizard is in most cases the most powerful class, with Druid and Cleirc very close by.
But the Wizard is hardly invincible.

See all of the replies I have seen here (and in other threads on the same topic) assume the following:

#1: You always get the exact WBL for every level, or more (I find this often is not the case if you play from level 1+).
#2: Every town, village and dark corner of the world has a "Ye-olde-Arcane-scroll-shope" (Even cities often do not have anywhere to purchase scrolls, often you need to go and ask the local Wizard very nicely for a spell trade, which often results in an emphatic "NO" or "Only if you complete this quest.." or "You must be a guild member, membership price is 7500gp for non citizens").
#3: The Wizard passes his spellcraft check when scribing. (I know this isn't hard, but I had a player who tried to scribe 5 spells he had on scrolls, he needed a 3+ to succeed and he failed EVERY roll. lol. Failing one or two and have to find the spell again or pay for a new scroll does happen from time to time screwing the WBL.)
#4: The DM allows any old spell to be chosen with the 2 free per level (I prefer to either allow a restricted list, mostly tailored around the character theme, or completely randomised.).
#5: Every spell in the game is just lying about pre-written on scrolls just waiting to be found (I never do this, none of my DMs do this. If you look at the random treasure tables, scrolls do not come up all that frequently compared to mroe mundane stuff and you have an equal chance of getting divine scrolls as arcane ones. Also given the XP cost for scrolls most Wizards would not make more than a few for personal use. So unless you have just killed a Wizard good luck. Spells are not candy.).
#6: You never come up against monsters with SR and good Saves or a hoard of critters that you struggle to deal with on your own. (Yeah right... )
#7: You always have adequate time to prepare a few spells before a battle. (I often find I rarely cast mage armor for example because I never have time. It only occurs when I am expecting a fight.)
#8: In some of these examples you would need to be able to cast several spells a round to be able to garuntee coming out on top, seemingly aside from the fact that this is impossible under the mechanics.
#9: All Wizards have 18 INT before racial mods at level 1 every game (This so patently untrue it is silly. This only occurs under point buy or with some truly lucky ass (ie me). Most Wizards might have 20 INT by level 20 if they are lucky and 100% min-max).
#10: Every magic item in the game is already made and is just lying about the place or is sitting in one of the magic shops found in every hamlet, town and city (If your games are like this then they are stupid, your DM is stupid and the whole thing is rediculous. Magic items are not candy.)
#11: The Wizard always goes first. (Just about every meleer will have higher DEX and ususually some other feat or minor item to boost init. It is rare for a Wizard to win init unless he rolls very high and they roll low. Chances are the Wizard will take a couple of hits before he gets his first spell off unless he has some serious meat protecting him. If that happens he can quickly be facing DC 50+ concentration checks to be able to even cast a spell.)

A good Wizard is lucky to even have 50/60 spells consistently available to him (in his spellbook) by level 20 unless he has been seriously lucky.
He has an average of 20 INT giving him the following spells per day:

4 0 level <-- useless in 99.99999% of situations
6 1st level <-- By level 20 are rarely of any use except for basic non-combat daily stuff.
5 2nd level <-- Mildly better than level 1, but again by level 20 are backup spells
5 3rd level <-- Most of the combat meat. But if facing level 20/CR20+ mostly going to be backup spells
5 4th level <-- Much of the mainstay by level 20, but few potentially game breaking spells, but unlikely to be of any real issue.
5 5th level <-- Much of the mainstay by level 20, a few more potentially game breaking spells, but unlikely to be of any real issue.
4 6th level <-- some nasty stuff, but only 4 castings per day limits them horridly.
4 7th level <-- Starts to break the game, but tend to have expensive material components and again, only 4 castings per day.
4 8th level <-- Starts to break the game, but only in some situations, usually have expensive material components and again, only 4 castings per day.
4 9th level <-- Easily breaks the game if the right spells are available, which is unlikely, usually have expensive material components, drawbacks and again, only 4 castings per day.

For a total of 46 spells per day of various levels.
Now look at all these "game breaking" spells you lot sling about. Just about all of them are level 6+. Giving him 16 spells per day to work with when breaking the game.
In all likelyhood he knows not even half a dozen of the high level (7+) spells. Maybe only 2/3 level 9 spells.

Sure he can expend almost everything he has on the level 20 fighter and crush him like a bug. But the Rogue and the Barbarian who were working with the fighter have just cleaved the Wizard in half. Most of the time that fighter is going tom get in at least one hit however, and if the Wizard fails his concentration check the wizard rarely gets the chance to attempt another...

Now for feats. I've seen a list as long as 20 feats needed for a Wizard to pull all this stuff off. Yet a Human Wizard with 2 flaws has 10 feats for anything he wants and 3 Wizard feats. If he starts to prestige anywhere he is often using more than a few of those feats just for prestige class requirements.
Even some of the other good feats have less useful feats as pre-reqs.
Usually your most useful feats are the 4 you grab at level 1. Also this is assuming the DM allows some of the stupid stuff that can be done in RAW that goes against RAI.
If you keep just to RAI the Wizard begins to look a lot less broken already, without even really changing anything.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 02:37 AM
You're forgetting to account for Wizard crafting abuse.

Which, I honestly do count as abuse because I don't see "I make magic items all day every day that I am not on an adventurer" to be a very exciting lifestyle and thus part of what was intended for the system. But that's the easiest way to get tons and tons of unnecessary back up spells for when you need them, since any time you are below the party average level, you are now getting XP back at a proportionally higher rate.

Also, bear in mind that Fighter/Wizard within 30 feet of each other has pretty much always come down to who rolls init first. Issues arise from the fact that because of the long range of spells and divinations, it's highly unlikely that the fighter gets that close if the Wizard's careful.

I reiterate that Wizards aren't actually so game breaking in practice, though, primarily because of laziness and rules of common courtesy.

JonestheSpy
2009-07-30, 02:39 AM
I reiterate that Wizards aren't actually so game breaking in practice, though, primarily because of laziness and rules of common courtesy.

Well, we actually agree on this completely, but I do fell the compulsion to debate some of your previous points:


Aside from the fact that wizards don't get significantly weakened until 3 or 4 encounters in a day

I'd counter that an adventure with less than three encounters a day is a Monty Haul cakewalk.


it's very hard to force him to get into more combats than he wants to have. .

Unless of course there's a goal that the wizard is trying to achieve, the defenders of which aren't happy to sit back and let the wizard rest to regain spells as much as they need.


Even I've made wizards that genesised their own demiplane with a handful of useful traits and a stronghold.

Sorry, wizards having easy access to the ability to create their own demiplanes is total splatbook cheese, in my humble opinion.

Yora
2009-07-30, 02:44 AM
Thanks to Craft Contingent Spell, you can have as many contingencies as you want, and they will almost always be Time Stop.

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).
Why does nobody ever mention this? Or is there a splatbook spell that ignores this limitation?

I think the whole discussion is silly. Almost all arguments fall apart if you play at 12th level or lower. And I think that's where most games take place.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 02:46 AM
Craft Contingent Spell is a feat from the Complete Arcane.

That text is for regular Contingency.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 02:49 AM
I'd counter that an adventure with less than three encounters a day is a Monty Haul cakewalk.

Or it's not quite an encounter oriented campaign. As a DM, I usually have one encounter a day and most days go by with none. I don't think I've ever heard the phrase 'monty haul' used in reference to how I play.


Unless of course there's a goal that the wizard is trying to achieve, the defenders of which aren't happy to sit back and let the wizard rest to regain spells as much as they need.

The problem here is that there's so many goals that a Wizard can just delay or drag with him. The issue with 'Forum Wizards' is not that they can't do what they do, it's just that they have time and ability to make the perfect play for every situation. Which is actually something I think that's fair to expect from something with 25 Int; which is why I'm glad that no one actually does. They're unrealistic not because of RAW versus RAI, since you can pare it down to Core and cut out crap like "time adjusted demiplane" quick; they're unrealistic because in this setting, the player's not going to make a mistake if they've done their research. Mistakes are more likely to occur in a real time game.


Sorry, wizards having easy access to the ability to create their own demiplanes is total splatbook cheese, in my humble opinion.

It's SRD, and while I think that the fact that it can be done just by memorizing and casting is bunk, I also think that 'it's in the SRD' means that you have to make it a consideration.

Genesis is one of the spells I ban outright.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 02:49 AM
I'd counter that an adventure with less than three encounters a day is a Monty Haul cakewalk.
All my RL campaigns so far have had less than 3 combat encounters per day because unless you're adventuring in the wilderness or in a battlefield, 3-4 combats per day is implausible.

We had a tendency to fight in a city or urban setting, and if there were 4 encounters per day, that would strained belief pretty hard.

We'd have also killed off the entire criminal population in a week and been level 20 in a month.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 02:51 AM
Unless we start above level 3 we play from level 1 upwards.
Rarely does the Wizard even survive, let alone make it past level 10.

But I have played a level 25 Wizard before and I am running a game on another site with a whole heap of gestalt spellcasters. The Wizards are extremely powerful, all of the casters are. There is no doubt that Wizard is in most cases the most powerful class, with Druid and Cleirc very close by.
But the Wizard is hardly invincible.

I ask because between levels 3 to 10, the wizard's spells/day are a serious limiting factor, and he doesn't have access to the truly awesomeness of Mind Blank and Limited Wish, or shapechange, gate, planar binding, or all the ridiculous get out of jail free cards break the campaign spells. Teleportation and plane shift alone can cause huge problems for a DM. Metamagic also becomes more cost-effective at higher levels, when using a 5th level spell slot for a quickened 1st level spell is actually worthwhile. Limited Wish allows you to replicate Psychic Reformation, which lets you repick feats, so you can turn your metamagic feats into feats that give you extra spells known, scribe those, then copy them back into you spellbook. It is costly and time consuming, but well worth it. Inside of core this tactic doesn't work, obviously.

As for the rest of your points, I largely agree with most of them.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 02:52 AM
Which, I honestly do count as abuse because I don't see "I make magic items all day every day that I am not on an adventurer" to be a very exciting lifestyle and thus part of what was intended for the system.

I... I'm a hacker. That sounds like a wonderful lifestyle.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 02:53 AM
All my RL campaigns so far have had less than 3 combat encounters per day because unless you're adventuring in the wilderness or in a battlefield, 3-4 combats per day is implausible.

We had a tendency to fight in a city or urban setting, and if there were 4 encounters per day, that would strained belief pretty hard.

We'd have also killed off the entire criminal population in a week and been level 20 in a month.

Quite true.
Threatening combats take a pretty long time to play out, as well.

As a DM, I'm always trying to figure out ways to both run enough reasonable encounters/day, as well as keep the casters worn out. The dungeon model works best, because for some reason, you've got a hive of kobolds, some big monstrous vermin, a beholder, a rival adventuring group, a pair of dragons and their hobgoblin minions, and a rakshasa all within the same compound.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 02:55 AM
I... I'm a hacker. That sounds like a wonderful lifestyle.

You looked at my sig lately? I LOVE making pointless crap. :smallredface: I just meant that I don't think the designers realized just how easy they made it to craft for a game that has most of its rules based on constant conflict, and they intended the XP cost to be a detriment.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 02:56 AM
Almost all arguments fall apart if you play at 12th level or lower. And I think that's where most games take place.

I would like to echo this sentiment. Wizards a merely overpowered past level 3, and it isn't until you get access to planar binding that they really become monstrous.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 03:00 AM
Heh, well, I just engage in conversation on this stuff 'cause other people bring it up and I like having strange people to talk at. If I made threads detailing my issues with 3E, two out of three of them would be "Did you people have any idea what you were doing when you made it possible for Clerics in the mid levels to be walking HMOs? The kinds of plots easy healing kills?"

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 03:24 AM
If you keep just to RAI the Wizard begins to look a lot less broken already, without even really changing anything.

No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

I'll take a level 20 Core Wizard (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=28333) and give him 100 days to make a fortress, and your team of a Fighter 20, Barbarian 20, and Rogue 20 can come in to try and take him out.

I'll go for half WBL if you will, and 28 point buy with a max starting stat of 15.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-30, 05:01 AM
You're forgetting to account for Wizard crafting abuse.

Which, I honestly do count as abuse because I don't see "I make magic items all day every day that I am not on an adventurer" to be a very exciting lifestyle and thus part of what was intended for the system. But that's the easiest way to get tons and tons of unnecessary back up spells for when you need them, since any time you are below the party average level, you are now getting XP back at a proportionally higher rate.

Crafting a single item takes at least 1 day minimum, using all of the daylight and he cannot be interrupted for even a second. Same rules for all item crafting. So to craft all these things that people hand wave away as being easy for Wizards is silly. A typical adventurer does nto get that much downtime and Wizards have spell research and all sorts of other funky stuff to do as well. I'd expect the average Wizard to make no more than a dozen scrolls in his career for example. Probably no more than one , possibly two wonderous items and anything else only one, if any at all.
And that chews up the Wizards XP on top of it.



Also, bear in mind that Fighter/Wizard within 30 feet of each other has pretty much always come down to who rolls init first. Issues arise from the fact that because of the long range of spells and divinations, it's highly unlikely that the fighter gets that close if the Wizard's careful.
Move silently, hide in shadows. A Rogue can do it no probs and it isn't hard for a good dex fighter to do it either.



I reiterate that Wizards aren't actually so game breaking in practice, though, primarily because of laziness and rules of common courtesy.
*nods*



I'd counter that an adventure with less than three encounters a day is a Monty Haul cakewalk.

Sorry, wizards having easy access to the ability to create their own demiplanes is total splatbook cheese, in my humble opinion.

I completely agree with both of these statements.
Though I would add that too many treasure giving encounters of low power would also be a Monty Haul.

I think that a lot of people who say Wizards are all powerful have probably played them in a Monty Haul.


No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

I'll take a level 20 Core Wizard (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=28333) and give him 100 days to make a fortress, and your team of a Fighter 20, Barbarian 20, and Rogue 20 can come in to try and take him out.

I'll go for half WBL if you will, and 28 point buy with a max starting stat of 15.

lol. When is a Wizard getting that much downtime and NOT using it for spell research and doing all the things a Wizard would be doing if you were actually roleplaying him?
No, give him say 2 days downtime, tops.
That is more the norm.

But doing it that way is still counter to the game. Play him from level 1 up.
IF the Wizard even makes it alive he would have spent his WBL gradually as he needed it. Meaning that it is highly doubtful he will have much by way of magic items or bought spells.

Just taking a level 20 Wizard with his "estimated" WBL, even half that WBL, he can just buy a couple of powerful items, all the level 6+ spells he needs and leave his level 1 spells as only a handful. In reality he will have only those high level spells he got as his 2 spells per level progression.

I'm also not sure what you mean by Fox only and Final Destination. lol.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 05:19 AM
lol. When is a Wizard getting that much downtime and NOT using it for spell research and doing all the things a Wizard would be doing if you were actually roleplaying him?
The Lyre of Building only works for 30 minutes a day, before demanding DC 18 perform checks to continue, yet does the work of 100 men for 3 days. I think the wizard can find time for a 30 minute strumming session every day.

And I don't see how making dungeons isn't roleplaying a Wizard. What else am I supposed to do with K. Architecture and Engineering?


No, give him say 2 days downtime, tops.
That is more the norm.
Your empirical evidence is what?

Anyways, that's still the work of 100 men for 6 days. Should be plenty of time to set up a nice cozy dungeon.


But doing it that way is still counter to the game. Play him from level 1 up.
IF the Wizard even makes it alive he would have spent his WBL gradually as he needed it. Meaning that it is highly doubtful he will have much by way of magic items or bought spells.
My items run the gamut from cheap to expensive, and all spells known come from the spells given at creation and the 2 spells/level from level up.



Just taking a level 20 Wizard with his "estimated" WBL, even half that WBL, he can just buy a couple of powerful items, all the level 6+ spells he needs and leave his level 1 spells as only a handful. In reality he will have only those high level spells he got as his 2 spells per level progression.
Yes, that's what I did. Please read my character sheet before commenting on it?

Wings of Peace
2009-07-30, 05:27 AM
Allow me to summarize what I feel is the crux of the issue.

Fighting Characters: I bring da kills

Skillfull Characters: I bring da skills

Wizards: I bring da mother ****ing reality.

Eldan
2009-07-30, 05:56 AM
Wizard: Also, I brought all your stuff, as a second level spell.

Wings of Peace
2009-07-30, 05:59 AM
Wizard: Also, I brought all your stuff, as a second level spell.

It's funny because it's true. :smallsmile:

Gaiyamato
2009-07-30, 06:22 AM
The Lyre of Building only works for 30 minutes a day, before demanding DC 18 perform checks to continue, yet does the work of 100 men for 3 days. I think the wizard can find time for a 30 minute strumming session every day.


Refer to previous page.
Magic items are not candy.
The Wizard does not have an infinite bag of tricks.
If he spent so much effort and wealth on the lyre then he is lacking other things, like the spells he needs or his scrolls etc.
Also you seem to fail to factor in things like food, shelter, adventuring supplies etc. He will be spending not even 1/10th of his standard WBL on magic items. And that will be spread out in smaller volumes.
Only in a Monty Haul or through pure sheer dumb luck would you have such an item.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 07:03 AM
Fine. No items. Fox only. Final Destination. Literally.

I'll have no magic items over 1/10th WBL. That's 76,000 gp. You'll do the same for your fighter, barb, and rogue and we'll see how far you get with the, how about?

Oh, and a 13,000 lyre of building is within 10% of 760,000 mathamatically speaking. Just fyi.



If he spent so much effort and wealth on the lyre then he is lacking other things, like the spells he needs or his scrolls etc.
But we've established that I'm only using the spells I get from leveling up. And if I used scrolls, you'd likely complain about "magic items not being candy, so you shouldn't have scrolls."

There is no pleasing some people.


Also you seem to fail to factor in things like food, shelter, adventuring supplies etc.

Ring of Sustainance (2500 gp). Rope Trick. Done.


He will be spending not even 1/10th of his standard WBL on magic items. And that will be spread out in smaller volumes.
Why not?



Only in a Monty Haul or through pure sheer dumb luck would you have such an item.
Prove it. I'm getting tired of you using your opinion as fact. Half of everything you say is purely your opinion, and there is no need for me to restrict myself by it. Nor do my experiences in real life and pbp games bear any resemblance to your views on how the magical items should be handled.

But I'll humor you some more. Build a barbarian, fighter, and rogue, with the restrictions you've laid down for the wizard: no more than 1/10 wbl on magic items (weapons too) and no excessively expensive items.

I'll go naked - no items at all.

Want to see who comes out on top?

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 07:17 AM
Since you brought it up again.


See all of the replies I have seen here (and in other threads on the same topic) assume the following:

#1: You always get the exact WBL for every level, or more (I find this often is not the case if you play from level 1+).

Wizards are some of the least gear dependant PCs around, they need access to their spell book when preping other than that it doesn't really inconvenience them to be in a low wealth campaign, other classes can't replicate a wizards self buff and utility and need a lot more to be resilient enough to play at CR levels. A wizard gets a big benefit from Int boosters, CL boosters and Rods, expands their endurance and versatility with wands/scrolls/staves and can free up spell slots with the usual gear to cover AC boosts, Stat boosts, Save Boosts etc... but they don't need it. If you reduce WBL or set limits on what they can buy you mildly reduce a wizard and cripple noncasters.


#2: Every town, village and dark corner of the world has a "Ye-olde-Arcane-scroll-shope" (Even cities often do not have anywhere to purchase scrolls, often you need to go and ask the local Wizard very nicely for a spell trade, which often results in an emphatic "NO" or "Only if you complete this quest.." or "You must be a guild member, membership price is 7500gp for non citizens").

Scrolls aren't needed as you point out. there can be no scrolls in the world and the wizard can still get access to all the spells he wants. Exchange of spells is mutually beneficial to intelligent wizards, having an effective ban on it is more than a little dubious in my opinion but hey, of the three options (No, Quest, Pay guild membership) I'm more than happy with two of them, quests give money/xp/fame and guild membership generally has some big rp/resource-access benefits. And as I said, Wizards don't need a whole heck of a lot of cash.


#3: The Wizard passes his spellcraft check when scribing. (I know this isn't hard, but I had a player who tried to scribe 5 spells he had on scrolls, he needed a 3+ to succeed and he failed EVERY roll. lol. Failing one or two and have to find the spell again or pay for a new scroll does happen from time to time screwing the WBL.)

A wizard should maximize his spellcraft, in character and out of character, if he does and has a positive Int mod (Wizard) then he should be passing all checks on a roll of 1. And it doesn't screw the WBL, WBL is the gear you have assigned to you when you make a new character, the gp aquired during your adventurering career is better listed on page 54 of the DMG, that's the one that shows expected wealth gain per level and factors in expended wealth on things like scrolls, potions, transport, healing, parties, funky hats, whatever.


#4: The DM allows any old spell to be chosen with the 2 free per level (I prefer to either allow a restricted list, mostly tailored around the character theme, or completely randomised.).

Houserule. The themactic one is quite nice but the randomized one is terrible, wizards get them suppossedly due to personal research so why do they end up completely unrelated to a wizards interests or experiance? That being said if the wizard lacks a theme beyound "i'm good at using magic" or they want to research useful stuff after having read/heard about it then the houserule falls down a bit. plus, once you start introducing houserules it stops being a straight comparrison of 3.5 wizards.


#5: Every spell in the game is just lying about pre-written on scrolls just waiting to be found (I never do this, none of my DMs do this. If you look at the random treasure tables, scrolls do not come up all that frequently compared to mroe mundane stuff and you have an equal chance of getting divine scrolls as arcane ones. Also given the XP cost for scrolls most Wizards would not make more than a few for personal use. So unless you have just killed a Wizard good luck. Spells are not candy.).

Spells are not candy. Nor are scrolls necessary to widen a wizards spell selection. The XP cost is negligable and due to the way leveling works if they fall behind they soon catch up.


#6: You never come up against monsters with SR and good Saves or a hoard of critters that you struggle to deal with on your own. (Yeah right... )

This I don't understand. As people on this forum are often saying, the wizard is the best at handling stuff like this, with a wide selection of spells that can target each save, ignore SR, control the battlefield, etc... you can be prepped for stuff like this, that's exactly what we're saying.


#7: You always have adequate time to prepare a few spells before a battle. (I often find I rarely cast mage armor for example because I never have time. It only occurs when I am expecting a fight.)

Depends. If you're talking about short dration buffs then maybe but mage armour is hours/level and can be extended with a 3k rod. Why don't you prep it ahead of time? When you start getting into higher levels then you start having a CL high enough to carry some of the 10mins/level and 1min/level stuff between encounters and since a wizard is able to control when they have encounters in a way few other classes are this is fine. If your DM is constantly throwing time specific stuff at you it becomes harder but a wizard should be able to choose when they fight, when they leave and be able to div/prep before hand. Teleport is an awesome spell.


#8: In some of these examples you would need to be able to cast several spells a round to be able to garuntee coming out on top, seemingly aside from the fact that this is impossible under the mechanics.

Choker. Contingency. Timestop. Surprise round. Quicken spell. team work with another caster. intelligent items. these are all core, step out of core and you get celerity, handing casting to your familiar, time bending magic, sooo many ridiculous things.


#9: All Wizards have 18 INT before racial mods at level 1 every game (This so patently untrue it is silly. This only occurs under point buy or with some truly lucky ass (ie me). Most Wizards might have 20 INT by level 20 if they are lucky and 100% min-max).

Lets say everyone starts with at least 15, rolled or point buy there's no way short of the 1e travesty of prealloted stat rolls that'll stop that. now most will want to say 16 as a minimum but we'll just stick to the elite array, so:

base 15 + 5 levels + 5 Inherent + 6 Item + Age/race bonus

31 without factoring in anything tricky. The item costs 36k and is chump chnage (even the NPC characters get it for goodness sake). The only thing I can see you objecting to is the +5 from inherent. This is easy, either 137k single hit cost (yes, I know it's a lot but that's what a wizard would spend on it) or planer bind a genie (this is opening a can of worms with wizard limiters I know but just don't be an asshat and it should be fine) or else go find something out there in the planes you've been bouncing around for 7 levels that wants something done and do it a favour, wishes are what the high level economy is based on... well, that and souls.


#10: Every magic item in the game is already made and is just lying about the place or is sitting in one of the magic shops found in every hamlet, town and city (If your games are like this then they are stupid, your DM is stupid and the whole thing is rediculous. Magic items are not candy.)

Magic items are not candy. Which would be an issue if we weren't talking about the least gear dependant classes (full casters) that are able to make their own stuff if they want to. The magic mart is to keep the fighter relivent not the wizard.


#11: The Wizard always goes first. (Just about every meleer will have higher DEX and ususually some other feat or minor item to boost init. It is rare for a Wizard to win init unless he rolls very high and they roll low. Chances are the Wizard will take a couple of hits before he gets his first spell off unless he has some serious meat protecting him. If that happens he can quickly be facing DC 50+ concentration checks to be able to even cast a spell.)

The wizard is flying, undetectable, invisible, incorporeal, has a higher Dex then you, has Init boosting magic and knows you're coming. Yes, he goes first.

Wizards prioritize Int then Con/Dex dependant on build. They'll have a higher dex then most every fighter and comparible to rogues. Then they're either in core in which case they'll take improved initiative cause there's not all that many good feats around, or they're out of core and get timeganking stuff. then factor in Contingencies, Immediate action casting, Moment of Prescience and Nerveskitter.... that's unless they're shapechanged into a dire tortoise.


A good Wizard is lucky to even have 50/60 spells consistently available to him (in his spellbook) by level 20 unless he has been seriously lucky.
He has an average of 20 INT giving him the following spells per day:

He has an average Int of at least 31 more probably 34+, he has scrolls and wands and staves available since he's not got much else to spend it on. and 50/60 spells is plenty if the DM isn't forcing him to take crap stuff for no reason. If he wants more then it's either free or of negligable cost dependant on whether the DM wants to play other casters as uniformly asshats and is willing to let secret page play as written.

So, our mage has an Int of 31 - that gives him

1st - 7
2nd - 7
3rd - 6
4th - 6
5th - 6
6th - 6
7th - 5
8th - 5
9th - 5

to play around with. more than enough. That's without items to expand it such as rings of wizardry or expendables. Long term buffs can be prepped and cast the previous day if we want to since at level 20 they last a long long long time (even longer with the very affordable rod of extend)


For a total of 46 spells per day of various levels.
Now look at all these "game breaking" spells you lot sling about. Just about all of them are level 6+. Giving him 16 spells per day to work with when breaking the game.
In all likelyhood he knows not even half a dozen of the high level (7+) spells. Maybe only 2/3 level 9 spells.

He gets at least 21 without touching items beyound a headband of intellect.

He knows 4 level 7 spells, 4 level 8 spells and 8 level 9 spells automatically. Now factor in that things like shapechange, mindblank, foresight, overland flight, astral projection, Planar binding, Simulacrum etc.. don't get expended during a single encounter.

Also, the spells talked about by "us lot" are a fairly small bunch that fall into the 'powerful but don't utterly wreak the game engine' set generally and one or two will end an encounter when a player picks the right one (ie, trys to live up to the Int score of the character).


Sure he can expend almost everything he has on the level 20 fighter and crush him like a bug. But the Rogue and the Barbarian who were working with the fighter have just cleaved the Wizard in half. Most of the time that fighter is going tom get in at least one hit however, and if the Wizard fails his concentration check the wizard rarely gets the chance to attempt another...

How did they find/reach the wizard? Why did the wizard 'expend almost everything he has' on one enemy? Why didn't the wizards protections get int he way of the barb and the rogue? Why did he stick around if he was getting clobbered? Why didn't his clone go off in his impenetrable fortress of doom? How is this scenario even close to possible?


Now for feats. I've seen a list as long as 20 feats needed for a Wizard to pull all this stuff off. Yet a Human Wizard with 2 flaws has 10 feats for anything he wants and 3 Wizard feats. If he starts to prestige anywhere he is often using more than a few of those feats just for prestige class requirements.

If he's in Core there aren't all that many feats that are good, he gets scribe scroll automatically, he gets anouther at level 5, factor in flaws and you get more than you need. Casting is where a wizard shines, if he wants to take a flavourful or powerful PrC or build lots of items then he can but it's an extra not an essential. If a particular poster starts talking about a feat intensive build such as a metamagic abuser then it's pretty clear they've got a specific trick in mind and don't mind building their character around that one thing but they're still a full casting wizard as well.


Even some of the other good feats have less useful feats as pre-reqs.
Usually your most useful feats are the 4 you grab at level 1. Also this is assuming the DM allows some of the stupid stuff that can be done in RAW that goes against RAI.
If you keep just to RAI the Wizard begins to look a lot less broken already, without even really changing anything.

It changes things from RAW to your version of RAI. Which is fine but then we're into a very different ball game.

SparkMandriller
2009-07-30, 07:28 AM
Also you seem to fail to factor in things like food, shelter, adventuring supplies etc. He will be spending not even 1/10th of his standard WBL on magic items.

That's one hungry wizard!

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 07:34 AM
That's one hungry wizard!

Also one that has misunderstood the WBL table for the one on page 54 of the DMG.


http://pics.livejournal.com/mouseferatu/pic/0001crt2

WBL does not work that way!

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 07:35 AM
Why am I not surprised?

misterk
2009-07-30, 08:29 AM
No items. Fox only. Final Destination.

I'll take a level 20 Core Wizard (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=28333) and give him 100 days to make a fortress, and your team of a Fighter 20, Barbarian 20, and Rogue 20 can come in to try and take him out.

I'll go for half WBL if you will, and 28 point buy with a max starting stat of 15.

I'm sorry. You'll have ONE HUNDRED DAYS to build a defensible fortress and then will be able to take out an adventuring party? How is this remotely a fair fight. I am in no way experienced with 3.5, but I imagine even a non-magical character, given the resources expected of such a high level character, could destroy three characters wondering in.

A possible suggested attack- optimise the rogue for social conduct, use the hundred days to recruit a mass of allies, including, say, some wizards of my own, and then attack you with those? There are other routes to defeating players that don't involve combat, and I suggest the best way of dealing against a fortified opponent would be to get myself an army first!

I'm sure you might be able to meet the challenge of a lvl 20 wizard versus the other three in an arena battle, which might be fairer, and if so, good for you. The example you give really does not prove much.

Oslecamo
2009-07-30, 08:38 AM
All my RL campaigns so far have had less than 3 combat encounters per day because unless you're adventuring in the wilderness or in a battlefield, 3-4 combats per day is implausible.

Play your campaigns as you like, but remember the system was designed for an average of 4 ecounters a day, aka playing in monster-filled enviroments. If you play in candy land, you cannot complain that love seeking icecream and cakes aren't enough of a challenge to your super optimized caster from hell.




We had a tendency to fight in a city or urban setting, and if there were 4 encounters per day, that would strained belief pretty hard.

We'd have also killed off the entire criminal population in a week and been level 20 in a month.

Duh, that's why you have so many outsiders in the books. Nothing says random ecounter like a gang of devils popping out of thin air, or an inevitable after the party for some law they broke, or rampaging earth elementals angry at the city's builders, or a slaad just having fun. You think you were alone on the multiverse? Think again!:smalltongue:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 08:38 AM
I'm sorry. You'll have ONE HUNDRED DAYS to build a defensible fortress and then will be able to take out an adventuring party? How is this remotely a fair fight.
In the game of DUNEGONS and Dragons, there are often DUNGEONS build by the antagonists that must be broken into. What's your problem?

Mathius
2009-07-30, 09:09 AM
To be honest, all of this talk about wizards being ustoppable comes with the assumption that the wizard is part of a group. If the wizard is with a party, then yes, he can be nigh unstoppable at high levels. The assumption is also made that there is only one, maybe two combat encounters a day and a wizard is sleeping peacefully through the night with no interruptions. If all of these criteria are met, then yes, you have a relatively powerful figure on your hands.

But unlike most other classes in the PHB (Core Classes), the wizard CAN NOT stand alone at any level when being faced with level appropriate challenges for any extended length of time.

Best case scenario, you have a character with two attacks a round, and a total of 200 hit points, which at 20th level is far from great. In campaigns I run, encounters are very common and even if you don't get into combat, interrupted sleep is still interrupted sleep. You need a full nights rest to gain spells back. And before those of you who use the "Well, if I have a Ring of Sustenance I only need two hours of sleep to get my spells back!" Read the Ring of Sustenance entry again. It does not say anything about spells. Just because your body gets the needed rest, does not mean you get your spells back. I am of the mind that if the book does not say specifically what you get than you do not get it.

Given this dynamic, the wizard, after about two days of being on his own with steady encounters is pretty well screwed.

And remember, the only reason a class would be deemed "Overpowered" is simply because the DM is not creative enough to sufficiently deflate these egotistical windbags who think that their 20th level characters are the ****.

A well placed trap and a few crafty pilfering beasties and you have the makings of a whole new trip to the character creation section.

Oh, and there is no such thing as Craft: Contingency in my campaigns. I find no mention of it in any of the books I allow (I only allow the PHB and a few ports from some of the supplements. And there is nothing in the Contact Other Plane spell that says the information you get is accurate or even useful. What it DOES say is that the other planar creature you speak to RESENTS the contact. Given this there is a decent chance that he/she/it may outright lie to you. So go ahead, ask that outsider anything you want, if it will make you feel better. You're funeral.)

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 09:15 AM
-facepalm-

Please reread these posts. These wizards - which are widely agreed to be theoretical wizards, because people aren't this level of jerk to their party members and DM usually - are solo acts.

RS14
2009-07-30, 09:43 AM
Stinking Cloud: This spell simply nauseates people. There is nothing in the books (if I am wrong please provide book and page number) that states the targets cannot attack or cast spells. At worse they have a 50% miss chance at any distance, but this goes both ways.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated

Jalor
2009-07-30, 09:50 AM
Since when is "It works this way in my campaign" a valid argument? Last time I checked, these theoretical debates are by RAW. I don't care if you force Wizards in your games to drink their own urine; it's irrelevant to this discussion. There are plenty of threads in which you can debate houserules to nerf wizards.

Also, most of the games in which I am a PC do in fact have about 4 encounters a day. I have never, in my entire time as a player, run out of spells with a primary spellcaster. Not once.

@Malthius: The game is Dungeons and Dragons. Awful lot of enclosed spaces in a dungeon, eh?

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 09:52 AM
There are issues here that I will point out.

And some responses to those issues.


Slow: Only works on 1 creature within 30 ft. This only works if your enemies are coming from the same direction and clustered together. Great for a dungeon/enclosed space, useless just about everywhere else.

Slow has a range of 50' when you get it at level 5, it goes up as you adventure and it stays relivant for several levels. It works on multiple creatures (1/Caster Level) and it can target them so long as they are within 30' which is actually quite far. Not a game breaker and not always the best tactic but damn powerful and the point is that the wizard gets to chose which he'll use, if the enemy are all spread out then use battlefield control rather than this debuff.


Web: Great for keeping encounters occupied, but the target gets an equivalent of a save every round. The initial reflex save then a strength check of DC 20 every round until they are free and heaven forbid the target also have the Escape Artist skill. With some of the monsters at this level their strength scores are pretty gnarly. This won't take long. And again great in small spaces, useless every where else.

This spell is available from 3th level, what monsters with 'pretty gnarly' strength did you have in mind? It takes out a 20' radius spread which is a damn big area in any sort of controlled space (tunnel, street, forest, etc...), it can't be used everywhere but then this is just one tool in the box. And the purpose of the spell isn't to finish the encounter it's to make it a cakewalk, if those trapped still get chances to break free on subsequent rounds that's fine since the Big Stupid Fighter's been cleaning up whatever was outside the radius and can now one shot whatever trickles out.


Stinking Cloud: This spell simply nauseates people. There is nothing in the books (if I am wrong please provide book and page number) that states the targets cannot attack or cast spells. At worse they have a 50% miss chance at any distance, but this goes both ways.

Then I suggest you look up the Nauseated condition. It sucks. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated)


The truth is a little creative DMing and any class can be humbled, regardless of level.

This thread is a long discussion of why that is not the case.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 09:55 AM
I'd like to point out that to escape Web, a creature needs 30 Str to have a 50% chance of making the check.

Jallorn
2009-07-30, 10:01 AM
I got one quote for your all-powerful wizard:
Clear Water Prana (Su)
Water purifies all things. Becoming an elemental avatar of water, you wash away the unnatural and supernatural, purifying the world. At 30th level, you radiate an antimagic field out to 60 ft., with caster level equal to your class level. However, it does not include the space you occupy. Epic spells, artifacts, supernatural or spell-like destiny features, and spells or supernatural abilities of deities are not affected by the clear water prana destiny feature.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:01 AM
Since when is "It works this way in my campaign" a valid argument? Last time I checked, these theoretical debates are by RAW. I don't care if you force Wizards in your games to drink their own urine; it's irrelevant to this discussion. There are plenty of threads in which you can debate houserules to nerf wizards.

Also, most of the games in which I am a PC do in fact have about 4 encounters a day. I have never, in my entire time as a player, run out of spells with a primary spellcaster. Not once.

@Malthius: The game is Dungeons and Dragons. Awful lot of enclosed spaces in a dungeon, eh?

The whole "It works this way in my campaign" actually wasn't meant to be an argument or even a defense. It was meant as "Creative DMing vs. My character is so badass," statement.

My whole point is that there is really no such thing as an "Overpowered" class. Simply using the same rules that your players use, it is easy as pie to humble those that think nothing can touch them.

And in my tenure as a player (going on 21 years now) I have found that Dungeons are a mere fraction of the environments one can explore, and in my opinion, one of the most boring.

I tend to like to break from the "Oh, look. Another endless stretch of stone gray hallway. After a while, they all start to look the same.

misterk
2009-07-30, 10:02 AM
In the game of DUNEGONS and Dragons, there are often DUNGEONS build by the antagonists that must be broken into. What's your problem?

Yes, but its not a fair fight. You prove nothing if your wizard can defend himself very well in a defensible location having had 100 days to set up.

Thats not proof that the wizard is better than the three characters, its proof he can set up a fantastic dungeon. Those three characters working together may well be able to set up their own dungeon of doom, although I admit it'd be harder. I don't think anyone is denying that given lots of time to prepare for a given fight where the wizard is defending the wizard may well win- the wizard is more adaptable than other characters, so given time to prepare for any given encounter he can probably find a solution. I still think the rogue raising an army sound solid, although I imagine it depends on what kind of world characters are living in. I might argue that epic level social characters could wield absurd amounts of power because they'll be able to persuade lots and lots of other powerful characters to help them out. This is off topic, so meh.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:03 AM
The truth is flying invisible wizard casts dominate person on the barbarian. The barbarian at level 20 has +6 will save. Lets assume he has a +5 resistance vest, and even toss in a 14 wisdom or so. Thats a +13 will save.

The wizard, with 30 int has a dominate person with DC 25. The barbarian fails the save almost half the time. And if the wizard wants he can toss out dominate monsters with a DC of 29. And this is without taking spell focus or anything else into account. Enchantment is normally weak, but without a wizard, the ftr/barb/rogue party has no mind blank. And even if the rogue UMDs it, the mind blank is wiped by a dispel or disjunction.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:04 AM
Ill play a naked level 20 wizard against a level 20 fighter, level 20 barbarian and level 20 rogue. Core only, I get a single round of preparation.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:06 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated

What book and page number? I cannot stand this site. It takes from not only D&D but also from the OGL of other books as well.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:07 AM
And remember, the only reason a class would be deemed "Overpowered" is simply because the DM is not creative enough to sufficiently deflate these egotistical windbags who think that their 20th level characters are the ****.

But seeing as the DM can pull a "Rocks fall, everyone dies," on any character, no matter how weak or strong, your statement proves nothing.


A well placed trap and a few crafty pilfering beasties and you have the makings of a whole new trip to the character creation section.
For any character, from a commoner to the DnD equivalent of Bruce Lee.


Oh, and there is no such thing as Craft: Contingency in my campaigns. I find no mention of it in any of the books I allow (I only allow the PHB and a few ports from some of the supplements.

It's from the Complete Arcane, in the feat section.


And there is nothing in the Contact Other Plane spell that says the information you get is accurate or even useful.
Except the words in the spell description, which I shall quote for you.


What it DOES say is that the other planar creature you speak to RESENTS the contact. Given this there is a decent chance that he/she/it may outright lie to you. So go ahead, ask that outsider anything you want, if it will make you feel better. You're funeral.

Now...

An Outer Planes Greater Deity lies on a roll of 01-88. Even if they resent the contact, they can only lie to you on a roll of 91-99. That's not a huge change of being lied to, and you can always cast another COP if you feel unsatisfied.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:07 AM
What book and page number? I cannot stand this site. It takes from not only D&D but also from the OGL of other books as well.

Pg 301 DMG

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:07 AM
What book and page number? I cannot stand this site. It takes from not only D&D but also from the OGL of other books as well.

...Yeah... that's why they made those books Open GL... all of the information there is freely available on Wizards' site, except for the Unearthed Arcana bits. But condition summary is in the DMG.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:07 AM
Oh yeah, my naked wizard will not be in a dungeon.

Oslecamo
2009-07-30, 10:08 AM
And even if the rogue UMDs it, the mind blank is wiped by a dispel or disjunction.

If the rogue is doing what's he suposed to be doing, the wizard won't be able to directly detect him, and if the wizard can't directly detect him, he can't make a targeted dispel, and a area dispel can easily be evaded.

And if the wizard is taking spell focus and greater spell focus, the melee guys are taking iron will and diping for one cleric level for extra saves.

Disjuction just screws everybody. Even the wizard will run home crying when his precious magic book is now a pile of worthless dust.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:09 AM
Oh yeah, my naked wizard will not be in a dungeon.

Not out streaking, I hope.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:12 AM
If the rogue is doing what's he suposed to be doing, the wizard won't be able to directly detect him, and if the wizard can't directly detect him, he can't make a targeted dispel, and a area dispel can easily be evaded.

And if the wizard is taking spell focus and greater spell focus, the melee guys are taking iron will and diping for one cleric level for extra saves.

Disjuction just screws everybody. Even the wizard will run home crying when his precious magic book is now a pile of worthless dust.

A level 20 wizard has a 75ft range with his disjunction.

Disjunction is a 40ft area burst. He can stay out of range of it.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:12 AM
Disjuction just screws everybody. Even the wizard will run home crying when his precious magic book is now a pile of worthless dust.

Unless it was in an extradimensional space such as a HHH in which case it just gets booted out into the real world. Or if he doesn't carry it on him. Or if he has a back up made for free with Secret Page. Or if he actually scribed it in which leaves a nonmagical piece of information in the book which isn't succeptable to being disjoined.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:14 AM
Pg 301 DMG

Thank you. I stand corrected.

I also would like to point out that one of my current players is a Wizard level 19 and he is a rules lawyer to the nth degree. I have no issue challenging him on a weekly basis.

Maybe I am just ignorant as hell, but I REALLY don't see this "Wizards are Unstoppable" at high levels.

My previous posts have not been in argument (and my apologies if they were taken as such), but I just don't see it.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:14 AM
Not out streaking, I hope.

Totally. In fact, we can assume that the rogue fighter and barbarian know that this wizard isnt right in the head and goes streaking every day, so they confront him during it.

Heck, ill give the adventurers a suprise round.


Here, official challenge:

I will run a level 20 wizard. He will have no magic items other than his spellbook, material components and focuses. The only precast buffs will be spells that last at least 16 hours.

He will fight a rogue 20, fighter 20 and barbarian 20. They get a suprise round.

Core only.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:17 AM
You don't see it in effect because most players aren't going to wake up one day with a bug up their arse, walk up to their DM and say "I have such little respect for you and my fellow players that I am going to do everything within my power to minimize your effectiveness and use every underhanded, sleazy gaming tactic available to me."

You don't see it in effect because most players aren't going to wake up one day and go "gee, you know, I've been having too much fun not being God. Time to be God. Forget OoC chatter or doing something because it's dramatic, I am playing to win."

Social conscientiousness, laziness, and the need for challenge all tend to be inherent limiters for the Wizard. Mechanics, on the other hand...

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:22 AM
I have a question, for my own morbid curiosity. I know how I play it, but I want to know what others do.

With the Spell Contact Other Plane: It says that the answers given by an outer planar greater diety is 88% truthful.

The question is this: It is a truthful answer as far as YOU are concerned or as far as the DIETY is concerned?

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:22 AM
Thank you. I stand corrected.

I also would like to point out that one of my current players is a Wizard level 19 and he is a rules lawyer to the nth degree. I have no issue challenging him on a weekly basis.

Maybe I am just ignorant as hell, but I REALLY don't see this "Wizards are Unstoppable" at high levels.

My previous posts have not been in argument (and my apologies if they were taken as such), but I just don't see it.

Ok. They weren't taken (by me at least) as in any way bad, just fun to argue about. If you want a good acount of what it takes to kill a high level character that actually pays a little attention to their own safety here's the list that Tippy put together in another thread a while back,

1) Superior Invisibility
2) Mind Blank
3) Ghost Form
4) Shapechange (into a Shadesteel Golem)
5) Soulfire buckler
6) Nondetection (means that true seeing won't let you penetrate Superior Invisibility)
7) Flight (90 feet perfect fly speed)
8) Foresight (never flat-footed and always acts in surprise round)
9) Celerity (get's to act as an immediate action, meaning that he always goes first)
10) Ironguard (immunity to all metal weapons)
11) Immunity to all elemental energy types

All simultaneous and in no way a comprehensive list.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:24 AM
I would swap ironguard for greater ironguard, which grants you immunity to anything less than +3.

Also throw spell turning and dimension jumper in there as well. If you want, eliminster's effugulent epuration is kickass.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:25 AM
You don't see it in effect because most players aren't going to wake up one day with a bug up their arse, walk up to their DM and say "I have such little respect for you and my fellow players that I am going to do everything within my power to minimize your effectiveness and use every underhanded, sleazy gaming tactic available to me."

You don't see it in effect because most players aren't going to wake up one day and go "gee, you know, I've been having too much fun not being God. Time to be God. Forget OoC chatter or doing something because it's dramatic, I am playing to win."

Social conscientiousness, laziness, and the need for challenge all tend to be inherent limiters for the Wizard. Mechanics, on the other hand...

Now there we have a problem. That is exactly what this guy has done with EVERY character he has made since I met him and I still have no problem slapping him back down when he gets too uppity. And I do not use the "Rock falls, everyone dies," defense. I use the monsters in the books to their FULL effectiveness and can keep him in check.

That is why I don't see the argument.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:26 AM
I would swap ironguard for greater ironguard, which grants you immunity to anything less than +3.

Also throw spell turning and dimension jumper in there as well. If you want, eliminster's effugulent epuration is kickass.

As I said, this is in no way comprehensive. With a full caster with access to all buffs there's not a whole lot you can't make yourself immune to.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:26 AM
Maybe I am just ignorant as hell, but I REALLY don't see this "Wizards are Unstoppable" at high levels.

Assuming all sources are open, the spells that may be in play will be:
[spoiler]
Time Stop: 9th level
Contingency: 6th level, great when combined with Celerity.
Celerity: 4th level, gives you one standard action in return for being dazed for a round after.

This pretty much guarantees you go first without need for rolling initiative, and get several free rounds to act.

Attack Options:
Maw of Chaos: 9th level, 1d6/level uncapped force damage. Can be dropped on people during a time stop because it is an AOE spelll with a longer duration than instant.
Reverse Gravity: 8th level: Not fun for people without flying.
Blackfire (SpC): 8th level, ray attack, Fort save every round or lose 1d3 Con and nauseated, sickened on a successful save. Spreads to adjacent victims if they fail reflex saves.
Greater Ironguard: Immune to damage from ordinary and magical metallic weapons.
Avasculate: 7th level, reduces opponent to ½ its current HP with no save, Fort save vs stunned.
Enervation: 4th level, 1d4 negative levels, no save.
Orb of X: 4th level, no save, no SR 15d6 elemental damage.
Solid Fog: 4th level, no save, no SR, targets hindered from moving.
Great Thunderclap: 3rd level, Fort save vs stunned, Ref save vs prone, Will save vs deafened.[/quote]

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:27 AM
Now there we have a problem. That is exactly what this guy has done with EVERY character he has made since I met him and I still have no problem slapping him back down when he gets too uppity. And I do not use the "Rock falls, everyone dies," defense. I use the monsters in the books to their FULL effectiveness and can keep him in check.

That is why I don't see the argument.

How do the rest of them survive? If you really really pull out the stops sure, you can challenge the Wizard but the rest of the team turn into road kill.

Also, look at the above list of initial buffs, how are they finding/reaching/hurting/killing this guy?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:28 AM
Now there we have a problem. That is exactly what this guy has done with EVERY character he has made since I met him and I still have no problem slapping him back down when he gets too uppity. And I do not use the "Rock falls, everyone dies," defense. I use the monsters in the books to their FULL effectiveness and can keep him in check.

That is why I don't see the argument.

How many monsters? What CR?



The question is this: It is a truthful answer as far as YOU are concerned or as far as the DIETY is concerned?
The spell description is mysteriously silent on this issue.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:29 AM
Now there we have a problem. That is exactly what this guy has done with EVERY character he has made since I met him and I still have no problem slapping him back down when he gets too uppity. And I do not use the "Rock falls, everyone dies," defense. I use the monsters in the books to their FULL effectiveness and can keep him in check.

That is why I don't see the argument.

The middle part of the triumvirate comes into play here - he's too lazy to research sufficiently the now well-explored tactics available on the interwebs. I wouldn't advise giving them to him, either. I suggest looking up Tidesinger's Test of Spite and seeing what he's done to people.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:29 AM
This is just something I don't and probably never will get. I guess since I have had to deal with shmucks like this my whole gaming career I no longer see it as an issue.

To some people it may be a valid complaint/point of contention/bitch what have you, to me no one class is any more powerful than another.

I can handle anything the books want to throw at me. If I don't like what the book offers, I don't allow it.

When all is said and done, the only reason it is as powerful as it is, is because these kinds of players are given free reign of the material and the DM is ill-equipped to handle it.

But I feel that is a failure on the DM's part, not the player.

The real question we should be asking ourselves is, Are we DM enough to tackle a character that has the freedom to literally be ANYTHING the books will allow?

Because, when you get down to it, there are WAY worse things out there than a high level wizard.

And if your wizard gets too cocky. Use some of those things and kick his ass.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:30 AM
You left out forcecage.

There isnt much that can survive timestop, maw of chaos, forcecage. For chaotic targets, use cloudkill.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:30 AM
This is all assuming he made the initiative roll in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Foresight, Moment of Prescience, Contingency.... No it doesn't.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:31 AM
This is all assuming he made the initiative roll in the first place.[/QUOTE]

Celerity grants the initiative roll. It's about the only thing in Splat that's up there with the broken Core spells.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:31 AM
This is all assuming he made the initiative roll in the first place.

What does Contingent Celerity do again?

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:31 AM
This is all assuming he made the initiative roll in the first place.[/QUOTE]

No, its not. Celerity and contingency means the wizard always wins initative.

Egads, the ninjas!

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:32 AM
Speaking of Celerity and initiative, mostlyharmful seems to have won.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:33 AM
Doing the Ninja dance.. Dance Ninja dance.... woooooo......:smallwink:

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-30, 10:39 AM
Celerity grants initiative in combination ith other spells. Alone, you cannot castit if flat footed, IIRC (no immediate action if flat footed).

Anyay, as said, there are ways to overcome this.

BTW, in my experience, I didn't find a wizard played in an actual game so powerful to solo enemies or to be game breaking.

I anyway assume that theoretical wizzies always win. Wiz are not unbeatable, but, heck, are veeery strong. See the laundry list of very powerful spells people pointed out.

Just to say: I discovered in recent threads that the "percevied brokenness" is not the same among people: maybe everybody agree on Celerity (of course) but I'v discovered that people blae SoD or knock. Interesting. I start to understand the choice of 4th edition designers, because I suppose they were really pissed off of all these discussions. We have 1 of these each week, I fear the number of these in wotc forums.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:40 AM
Less over there than you'd think, for some reason.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:41 AM
Nobody wants to take me up on my offer?

13_CBS
2009-07-30, 10:45 AM
You know, an interesting phenomenon I've seen around here...

No one ever seems to take up challenges like the one that Quick_comment made. Someone challenges, say, Giacomo, and no one takes up on the offer. Someone challenges someone else to take out their wizard, no one responds.

Do Playgrounders not like walking the walk or something? :smallconfused:

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:46 AM
What does Contingent Celerity do again?

Let's keep in mind, first that the premiere way to keep jackasses like this from building these uber-mages, is to limit the resources available to them.

With that thought, Celerity is not in the PHB and therefore not something I would allow.

The books I allow are these: PHB, DMG (prestige classes), Epic Level Handbook (at appopriate levels), and the Unearthed Arcana books. I will openly discuss a class from another book but will cherry pick as to what the class does and does not get from that book.

This is by far the best way I have found to handle these people.

What I will say is this: If you hand the entirety of the D&D 3.5 and OGL books to a player with this kind of mentality and tell him the sky is the limit, then yes, I agree, you can create a character (and not just a wizard) that is as close to Diety status as you are likely to find walking the mortal realm.

This kind of freedom is a blessing to the powergamers.

I have actually done this, allowing people total freedom. I ended up killing the party within the first 15 minutes of the first campaign.

I found the wonderful world of templates. It was collectively agreed at that point that they would stick to the above mentioned resources.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:46 AM
You know, an interesting phenomenon I've seen around here...

No one ever seems to take up challenges like the one that Quick_comment made. Someone challenges, say, Giacomo, and no one takes up on the offer. Someone challenges someone else to take out their wizard, no one responds.

Do Playgrounders not like walking the walk or something? :smallconfused:

Hey. Hey. I ain't never made no challenge to fight no wizard. I'll take up a challenge to fight a Duelist, though...

Matthius, I think the best way to keep this short is to take QC up on his offer.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:47 AM
You know, an interesting phenomenon I've seen around here...

No one ever seems to take up challenges like the one that Quick_comment made. Someone challenges, say, Giacomo, and no one takes up on the offer. Someone challenges someone else to take out their wizard, no one responds.

Do Playgrounders not like walking the walk or something? :smallconfused:

Don't know about other people but I generally find I'm either busy, agree with them or doing one already. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6427768&posted=1#post6427768)

RS14
2009-07-30, 10:47 AM
Well I don't feel like building three level 20 characters from the ground up... I'm not saying character gen is the whole reason, but these discussions typically focus on high-level play.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:48 AM
You know, an interesting phenomenon I've seen around here...

No one ever seems to take up challenges like the one that Quick_comment made. Someone challenges, say, Giacomo, and no one takes up on the offer. Someone challenges someone else to take out their wizard, no one responds.

Do Playgrounders not like walking the walk or something? :smallconfused:

The reason I am not responding to it is because I like to see the luck of the dice first hand. There is no way to know who makes their saves, who makes a critical hit, and who makes he skill rolls needed to accomplish what tasks.

In short, it is impossible to do it right.

Regardless of how powerful a character you are, the right combination of bad rolls and you are dead double quick.

If QC wants to come to my apartment, create the character in front of me, and roll all of the combat on my dining room table, then I would be more than happy to.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:49 AM
The reason I am not responding to it is because I like to see the luck of the dice first hand. There is no way to know who makes their saves, who makes a critical hit, and who makes he skill rolls needed to accomplish what tasks.

In short, it is impossible to do it right.

Regardless of how powerful a character you are, the right combination of bad rolls and you are dead double quick.

You can just use the built in dice roller on the games forum?:smallconfused:

Oslecamo
2009-07-30, 10:50 AM
Less over there than you'd think, for some reason.

Because last time I checked the 3.X forums were pretty messed up, making impossible to make even a sensible fighter vs wizard war on it. But back before 4e they poped up like mushrooms(and the irony of so many people claiming wizards wouldn't release 4e so soon)

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:51 AM
Ill use this forum's dice roller, we can make a game an rpol, whatever.

multilis
2009-07-30, 10:53 AM
It sounds like to me a non player that "magic" rather than wizard is really the unstoppable and the usual solution is to increase stuff that disables magic.

Ideally I'd make it more effective the more magic/buffs that were in play so as to not completely cripple the magic users, eg if you have 10 points worth of buffs it has a 10/100 chance to remove each buff, while if you have 50/100 points worth of buffs it has a 50/100 chance to remove *each* buff.

(Weaker buffs would be worth less points)

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:53 AM
You can just use the built in dice roller on the games forum?:smallconfused:

I don't trust computer dice programs. Never have. I'm old school. Bring the Kaplow or the Game Science. The truly random!

Jalor
2009-07-30, 10:54 AM
I don't trust computer dice programs. Never have. I'm old school. Bring the Kaplow or the Game Science. The truly random!

GiantITP has the most impossible-to-cheat-with system I've ever seen. It's easier to fudge a real die roll.

Kaiyanwang
2009-07-30, 10:55 AM
You know, an interesting phenomenon I've seen around here...

No one ever seems to take up challenges like the one that Quick_comment made. Someone challenges, say, Giacomo, and no one takes up on the offer. Someone challenges someone else to take out their wizard, no one responds.

Do Playgrounders not like walking the walk or something? :smallconfused:

The real game is the game of maybe. Is the game of "good morning fighter I just finished now to prepare my spell" or the "don't beat me so hard epic commoner I just nuked Asmodeus Riding Demogorgon Dual Wielding Orcus and the Ruby rod as Bludgeoning Weapons".

The Pvp is not a random mage vs others. Is a mage prepared for a challenge, so a winning mage.


BTW, why the 3 meleers have to go to the wiz' home? Seems like a dungeon to me.

Even if I guess that a prepared mage could nuke the meleers home, anyway, unless you cheese up Leadership, maybe, and followers have 9 level spell anyway.. nevermind.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 10:56 AM
GiantITP has the most impossible-to-cheat-with system I've ever seen. It's easier to fudge a real die roll.

That means absolutely nothing to me. If I cannot physically see the dice rolls on the table (and believe me, I check EVERY roll) I don't trust it. I don't even allow players to use the official D&D character creator.

Put the dice on the wood or no go.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 10:57 AM
The Pvp is not a random mage vs others. Is a mage prepared for a challenge, so a winning mage.

Pvp isn't the only possibility, see the thread I linked to above with Me, Pharaoh's Fist, Sstoopidtallkid and Sir Giacomo going through a dungeon run by Saph. It's a game not Pvp. Test of Spite and Tidesinger do a range of deaths tailored to your particular tastes.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 10:58 AM
That means absolutely nothing to me. If I cannot physically see the dice rolls on the table (and believe me, I check EVERY roll) I don't trust it. I don't even allow players to use the official D&D character creator.

Put the dice on the wood or no go.

Well, I suppose that we conveniently find ourselves completely unable to test things to your satisfaction, then.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:59 AM
That means absolutely nothing to me. If I cannot physically see the dice rolls on the table (and believe me, I check EVERY roll) I don't trust it. I don't even allow players to use the official D&D character creator.

Put the dice on the wood or no go.

That....makes absolutely no sense at all.

But if you really want, I can roll, and send you photographs of my rolls.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:00 AM
Or the game could be conducted via webcam.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:01 AM
Well, I suppose that we conveniently find ourselves completely unable to test things to your satisfaction, then.

Truth is, Astral. Even if you were in my living room, playing this my way, you STILL wouldn't be able to prove this argument to me.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 11:03 AM
Truth is, Astral. Even if you were in my living room, playing this my way, you STILL wouldn't be able to prove this argument to me.

That's really not a good thing. What, out of interest, would it take to convince you? Just so we know the ballpark.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:03 AM
Truth is, Astral. Even if you were in my living room, playing this my way, you STILL wouldn't be able to prove this argument to me.

How about this:

I assume rolls of 5 for everything, you assume rolls of 15 for everything.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 11:05 AM
Truth is, Astral. Even if you were in my living room, playing this my way, you STILL wouldn't be able to prove this argument to me.

Then why are you even engaging in the argument at all, if you are aware that a challenge specifically tailored to be to the wizard's disadvantage in every way would be unable to convince you, regardless of the result?

You are welcome to your beliefs, but if you're going to engage in an argument, you owe it to whoever you are discussing with to retain an open mind in the face of empirical proof if it should present itself.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:05 AM
That....makes absolutely no sense at all.

But if you really want, I can roll, and send you photographs of my rolls.

Because unless I see it first hand it is complete BS. I am sorry if this pisses you guys off, but thats how I do it.

I don't trust rolls I can't see.

And for those that say "Do it over a webcam!" I don't own one. Never really wanted one.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:05 AM
I assume rolls of 5 for everything, you assume rolls of 15 for everything.

If you took the lowest result possible on every die roll, and he took the highest result possible, the Wizard could still win.

Epinephrine
2009-07-30, 11:06 AM
I'd love to take up the challenge, but I'm not the best optimiser.

I believe that Pierce Magical Protection is probably a necessity. That gets around all those mirror images, etc. The 25,000gp antimagic Torc from Underdark is probably also a good idea.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:07 AM
If you took the lowest result possible on every die roll, and he took the highest result possible, the Wizard could still win.

Well, I would need spells that require neither attack rolls or saving throws.

Either that, or every round it would be

[Std] limited wish: Next attack hits
[Swift] Quickened Enervation

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:08 AM
Then why are you even engaging in the argument at all, if you are aware that a challenge specifically tailored to be to the wizard's disadvantage in every way would be unable to convince you, regardless of the result?

You are welcome to your beliefs, but if you're going to engage in an argument, you owe it to whoever you are discussing with to retain an open mind in the face of empirical proof if it should present itself.

Okay. Here you go.

Wizard stand atop his forification supreme in his superiority.

Barbarian and Fighter storm the gate of the castle. I give them two, maybe three rounds tops.

Rogue uses his ring of three wishes and wishes the wizard to permanently be defenseless agains all magic (recieving no saves). He then wishes the wizards lungs to be filled with stone. He then wishes the wizard to be teleported to the elemental plane of fire.

Dead wizard. One round. All core.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:08 AM
Solid Fog, Orb of Force, and most other conjuration does not allow SR.

As we all know from OOTS, Disjunction trumps Antimagic Field.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:09 AM
As we all know from OOTS, Disjunction trumps Antimagic Field.

It actually doesnt until you get really high caster levels.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:10 AM
It actually doesnt until you get really high caster levels.

Yeah, but what caster level is that Antimagic Field item?

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 11:12 AM
Yeah, but what caster level is that Antimagic Field item?

Doesn't matter. You only get a 1% per caster level of disjoining an AMF

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:15 AM
The best way to deal with AMF is to fly and shoot orbs.

Or just out wait it.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:16 AM
Doesn't matter. You only get a 1% per caster level of disjoining an AMF

Oh, it's been a while since I've read Disjunction. Thought it worked like Dispel Magic.

AMF still can't stop several Gate'd monsters from dogpiling the wearer, who's magical items do not function. Or Maximized Orb of Sonic, which apparently works.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:18 AM
Oh, it's been a while since I've read Disjunction. Thought it worked like Dispel Magic.

AMF still can't stop several summoned monsters from dogpiling the wearer, who's magical items do not function. Or Maximized Orb of Force, which apparently works.

AMF can stop summond creatures, but not called creatures.

EleventhHour
2009-07-30, 11:18 AM
To put it simply, the only ways to beat a Wizard I've seen is "Deny him the avaibility of spells." But, that means that the Wizard is in fact so powerful, that you had to design the game world just to not suit her.

So... DM trumps Wizard? :smalltongue:

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:23 AM
AMF can stop summond creatures, but not called creatures.

My mistake, I meant Gate. Who prepares Summon Monster when Gate exists anyway?

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:28 AM
To put it simply, the only ways to beat a Wizard I've seen is "Deny him the avaibility of spells." But, that means that the Wizard is in fact so powerful, that you had to design the game world just to not suit her.

So... DM trumps Wizard? :smalltongue:

Well, if you want to get right down to it, DM trumps everything.

In all seriousness, the wizard is just one example of how things in 3.5 have gotten way out of hand. Compare what is available in 3.5 to what is available in 2nd edition or even AD&D. It's rediculous.

I guess, maybe I have to agree that not just the wizard, but everything is overpowered. To keep the game fun at high levels you have to put limits on stuff. Otherwise there is no point. I have been playing the same character since 1988. He was 43rd level in 2nd edition and I converted him to 3rd ed in 2002. I tried it point for point and got bored.

Now he plays the role of Dues Ex Machina in my games. He is way too powerful to play.

I would have to say that no matter how hardcore the class is, the DM can always create a monster to counter them. This is something I do on a regular basis, so this is why, even when I do allow total freedom, I don't allow the system to get away from me.

But having said that, I retract my former statement (to you Astral most of all) and say that with some DM's I can see why this would be a problem. I have never really faced it, but 3.5 as a whole seems to be rife with issues like this.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:30 AM
How about this:

On every d20, you roll 20s.

On every d20, I roll 1s.

tyckspoon
2009-07-30, 11:30 AM
My mistake, I meant Gate. Who prepares Summon Monster when Gate exists anyway?

People who don't want to spend 1,000 XP on their summoned allies.

RS14
2009-07-30, 11:34 AM
As for the dice...

Each player seeds a cryptographically secure and previously agreed upon PRNG (with an output feeback mode) with a secret seed of their choosing. For each bit, each player provides a random value of their choosing which is xored with the previous value of their opponent's PRNG and returned as input.

The results of each PRNG are compared. If equal, it is accepted as a valid roll. Otherwise repeat the roll with new values selected.Edit: I'm an idiot. The outputs are xored.

At the end of the game, the secret seed values are revealed, and each player can review all inputs and outputs of their opponent's PRNG to verify that all outputs were legitimate.

A player can of course provide true random values of their choosing, selected using dice, even, if they wish, and cannot as far as I see compromise the randomness of the output.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:36 AM
Or you know, we can use a public dice roller.

Heck Mathius, if you want Ill let you roll my dice and your dice.

RS14
2009-07-30, 11:38 AM
My method has the advantage of working even if everybody save Alice, including any 3rd parties, works to cheat against Alice. A 3rd party dice-roller can't necessarily be trusted, and in practice probably uses a PRNG that isn't totally random.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:39 AM
My method has the advantage of working even if everybody save Alice, including any 3rd parties, works to cheat against Alice. A 3rd party dice-roller can't necessarily be trusted, and in practice probably uses a PRNG that isn't totally random.

Im willing to let Mathius roll all the dice, it really doesnt matter to me.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:39 AM
Speaking of Celerity and initiative, mostlyharmful seems to have won.

What book is Celerity in?

RS14
2009-07-30, 11:40 AM
Im willing to let Mathius roll all the dice, it really doesnt matter to me.

Much simpler, yes. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 11:41 AM
What book is Celerity in?

Player's Handbook 2.

My contingent celerity-time stop-greater post combination beats yours, QC. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:41 AM
What book is Celerity in?

PHBII. Comes in lesser and greater flavors too.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:42 AM
Okay. Here you go.

Wizard stand atop his forification supreme in his superiority.

Barbarian and Fighter storm the gate of the castle. I give them two, maybe three rounds tops.

Rogue uses his ring of three wishes and wishes the wizard to permanently be defenseless agains all magic (recieving no saves). He then wishes the wizards lungs to be filled with stone. He then wishes the wizard to be teleported to the elemental plane of fire.

Dead wizard. One round. All core.

RS14
2009-07-30, 11:44 AM
Rogue uses his ring of three wishes and wishes the wizard to permanently be defenseless agains all magic (recieving no saves). He then wishes the wizards lungs to be filled with stone. He then wishes the wizard to be teleported to the elemental plane of fire.

Wish does not work that way.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:46 AM
Wish does not work that way.

Explain why it does not work that way.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 11:46 AM
'Remove saves' is almost unquestionably an effect greater than those listed as examples in Wish. I have to question why, if this is possible, the Wizard itself cannot simply use such tactics himself.

I'm also amused that the centerpiece of your strategy is using an item that grants you a wizard's spells.

EDIT: RS14, quickcomment, I take back what I said in the PM. I was wrong. :P

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 11:46 AM
Okay. Here you go.

Wizard stand atop his forification supreme in his superiority.

Barbarian and Fighter storm the gate of the castle. I give them two, maybe three rounds tops.

Rogue uses his ring of three wishes and wishes the wizard to permanently be defenseless agains all magic (recieving no saves). He then wishes the wizards lungs to be filled with stone. He then wishes the wizard to be teleported to the elemental plane of fire.

Dead wizard. One round. All core.

Wish doesn't work that way, though.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 11:47 AM
'Remove saves' is almost unquestionably an effect greater than those listed as examples in Wish. I have to question why, if this is possible, the Wizard itself cannot simply use such tactics himself.

I'm also amused that the centerpiece of your strategy is using an item that grants you a wizard's spells.

Wish is simply a means to an end. I never once said that a wizard's spells were not necessary for the plan. Simply put, fight fire with fire.

And as for the 'Remove saves' is almost unquestionably an effect greater than those listed as examples in Wish?

That's the beauty of wish, darling. It can do whatever the DM says it can do. If the wizard wishes to make this attempt he is free to do so. If the Dm allows it, then so be it. But for the sake of argument, I will wait until the round after his Celerity takes effect and for him to be Dazed and fire off the second part and forgo the first. Since he can take no actions, I am going to assume he cannot fortify himself to resist a spell (considering that according to the rules you can opt not to resist spell, it would be fair to assume that it is not an automatic reaction) and fill his lungs with stone. This alone kills him instantly, but for the sake of being thorough, I also teleport him to the elemental plane of fire.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:49 AM
Okay. Here you go.

Wizard stand atop his forification supreme in his superiority.

Barbarian and Fighter storm the gate of the castle. I give them two, maybe three rounds tops.

Rogue uses his ring of three wishes and wishes the wizard to permanently be defenseless agains all magic (recieving no saves). He then wishes the wizards lungs to be filled with stone. He then wishes the wizard to be teleported to the elemental plane of fire.

Dead wizard. One round. All core.

Wish cant do any of the things you said, except for the teleportation effect, which allows a save and SR. Killing someone without a save is more powerful than an 8th level spells. Stripping them of magical defenses is also too much, as that duplicates disjunction, a 9th level spell which wish cannot do.

Also, your rogue just took 3 standard actions.


Anyway allowing your misuse of wish, what really happens is this.

Rogue: Uses ring of 3 wishes.
Wizard: Egads, I am defenseless. But now its my turn. Disjunction, quickened shatter on the ring.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 11:50 AM
Wish is simply a means to an end. I never once said that a wizard's spells were not necessary for the plan. Simply put, fight fire with fire.

Doesn't change the fact that you're not using an established usage of Wish. Compare
# Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

With what you just sent the Rogue to do.

This is pretty much cutting off your nose to spite your face; if you allow this tactic, there is no stopping anyone with access to wish ever. The entire world becomes a rush to become the first person to gain access to the spell.

Also QC continues to prove to be better at this than me.

busterswd
2009-07-30, 11:53 AM
Wish is simply a means to an end. I never once said that a wizard's spells were not necessary for the plan. Simply put, fight fire with fire.

But when your point is to prove that a wizard isn't inherently better than another class, using wizard spells to beat a wizard doesn't really support your argument.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-30, 11:54 AM
Mathius: I don't really understand what you're trying to argue here. Are you saying that optimized wizards are not unstoppable? Because if you are, you're going to have to prove that on an optimized playing field. However, you also seem to to bring up your method of nerfing the wizard, namely by imposing strict limitations on what material wizards have access to. I don't doubt that your wizard fix works for you, but it's not part of the first argument.

Also, those wishes you described (especially the first) are grossly overpowered. A more reasonable set of wishes would be thus:

Barbarian: I wish the wizard failed his next save (Wish can do this, iirc).

Rogue: I wish the wizard got affected by [insert save or die here].

Assuming they get to act, and the wizard is not immune to the save or die (big ifs, actually), this would work.

I think I was mistaken about the auto-fail saves thing. Ignore this part.

Mongoose87
2009-07-30, 11:55 AM
This is pretty much cutting off your nose to spite your face; if you allow this tactic, there is no stopping anyone with access to wish ever. The entire world becomes a rush to become the first person to gain access to the spell.

A race the wizard undoubtedly beats the rogue at.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 11:56 AM
But when your point is to prove that a wizard isn't inherently better than another class, using wizard spells to beat a wizard doesn't really support your argument.

Actually, they are wizard/SORCERER spells, and some reappear on other class lists. Furthermore, this is a discussion of how the WIZARD is unstoppable, not his spells (though the wizard really is his spells, and it is the spells that are the problem, as others have pointed out).

A wizard using knock to open a door or fireball to do damage, that would be cheating too, now, wouldn't it?

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:58 AM
Not to mention, you cant actually see the wizard, with his hour/level nondetection and contingent greater invisibility and all.

And if you want to be cheesy and allow wish to do anything, the wizard can cast wishes earlier than the rogue can.

The wizard has been wishing for quite some time. He has a bunch of the following: "I wish the next person to take a hostile action against me is killed without a save"

and

"I wish that nobody else can ever cast wish"

and

"I wish for unlimited wishes"

Mathius
2009-07-30, 12:01 PM
Well, I'll be you're right. You can't fill his lungs with stone, [B]but you can teleport a portion of the dirt your standing on into his lungs as Teleport; Object is only a 7th level spell (and though it is said to function like teleport, but does not include the limitations, I go by the belief that it does not contain the error %) B] Now, we know that the wizard is dazed and can therefore do nothing to defend himself. We teleport his ass to the plane of fire to toast.

The problem people are having is that they are saying that wizards are unstoppable. If you strip away every monster that uses any kind of arcane magic, than yes, a wizard is unstoppable. BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES USING MAGIC!!

That's like walking through a day care with an AK47. I'm the baddest guy in the room because I am the only one with a gun.

I never said I can smoke a wizard without using magic. That I will grant you. If no other arcane magic exists in your world other than your wizard, then you are just stupid and shouldn't be DMing in the first place.

I use wizard spells to be a wizard because it makes sense. Magic is powerful and so are those that utilize it. I don't deny that. But the statement that "Using wizard spells to be a wizard doesn't prove your argument" is a bonehead statement in the first place because without fighting magic with magic there is really no other recourse, so naturally that will always be the fallback.

A 20th level fighter with appropriate items and abilities could give any 20th level wizard a hard time. It comes with building the character right and getting the right gear.

Of course a wizard is going to toast most other characters, if the wizard has fair warning and his buffs on. If the wizard is caught completely unaware with no buffs whatsoever, then the ball is firmly in the fighter's court.

The devil is in the details. And before anyone jumps in about "Most wizards would buff themselves" I say this: if you didn't say you did it. Then you didn't do it.

jseah
2009-07-30, 12:03 PM
It's not so much the fact that wizards can't be challenged but that they change the game.

Challenging a wizard is easy as pie. Another wizard or caster does quite well indeed.

But you see, a cookie-cutter generalist wizard in 3.5 SRD only, played intelligently destroys the standard sword and sorcery setting.

Imagine a war between two wizards with 9th level spells. It's a war of information. Divination spells and teleport rule the game until one of them finds a flaw in the other guy's pre-emptive defenses and then Time-stop salvo's the other with just the right mix of spells needed to kill.

Doesn't sound like an epic wizard duel. It's silent and no one knows it's happening save gods and other GM proxies. And the guy who loses probably just disappears silently in an, at most, room-sized explosion. (why make noise when there could be other level 20 wizards waiting to kill you?)
Guess what? If a wizard can do it to another wizard, chances are, he can do it to anyone else. Any credible opposition who shows up on divinations stands no chance whatsoever.


Basically, the standard D&D model got thrown out the window at 13th level and it only gets worse from there. You can't run the same kind of game, period. Extraplanar or not, anything that requires going toe-to-toe simply doesn't cut it and that makes the sword-guy and the sneaky-guy useless.

It doesn't mean the game can't be played. It can. I'll love to play such a game. But it's not your standard style of D&D and playing at that kind of strategic level ensures that standard sword and sorcery problems are a cakewalk if they don't have tailor-made counters to your solutions.


Fixing wizards takes about as much changes as 4E has. Even though I don't like it, I admit, they balanced it good. No strategic game to speak of is what is needed to balance wizards.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-30, 12:03 PM
Now, we know that the wizard is dazed and can therefore do nothing to defend himself. We teleport his ass to the plane of fire to toast.

Daze does not affect saves or AC. It does not make you in any way defenseless.

RS14
2009-07-30, 12:07 PM
That's the beauty of wish, darling. It can do whatever the DM says it can do. If the wizard wishes to make this attempt he is free to do so. If the Dm allows it, then so be it. But for the sake of argument, I will wait until the round after his Celerity takes effect and for him to be Dazed and fire off the second part and forgo the first. Since he can take no actions, I am going to assume he cannot fortify himself to resist a spell (considering that according to the rules you can opt not to resist spell, it would be fair to assume that it is not an automatic reaction) and fill his lungs with stone. This alone kills him instantly, but for the sake of being thorough, I also teleport him to the elemental plane of fire.

Please don't go back and add whole arguments to a post, particularly when the thread is already moving along rapidly.

Anyway, yes, the wizard can be defeated by DM fiat. That's irrelevant to this discussion--DM fiat trumps all.

Filling his lungs with stone is likewise not an established spell. You argue that teleport object works, but I point out that so does create water, and as a mere 0th level spell. And that's just absurd. Neither should be lethal by any but the most pedantic reading of the rules. But if we go down that path, where do the rules state that the wizard needs lungs to breath?

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 12:09 PM
Well, I'll be you're right. You can't fill his lungs with stone, [B]but you can teleport a portion of the dirt your standing on into his lungs as Teleport; Object is only a 7th level spell (and though it is said to function like teleport, but does not include the limitations, I go by the belief that it does not contain the error %) B]

Teleport has the limitation that you cannot teleport things into living creatures. Teleport Object has the same limitation. Otherwise I would just teleport a sword into Tiamat's heart and call it a day.

[edit]
Actually, it's dimension door that doesn't let you teleport into things. Looks like it's open season on Tiamat's heart.


Now, we know that the wizard is dazed and can therefore do nothing to defend himself. We teleport his ass to the plane of fire to toast.

Except that it allows a DC 23 Will save. Wizard 20 has +12 to will saves, and if we assume 10 wisdom, he makes that 50% of the time. So on a ring of wishes, you only get to send him to the plane of fire 1.5 times, and since he is a wizard he can a) spend his next action putting up some protection from fire or b) plane shift back home and plot the destruction of the rogue.

If the wizard happens to have Protection From Spells (+8 resistance bonus on saves, 10 minutes/level) up at the time, he instead gets a +20 to will saves.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 12:20 PM
Even ruling that you can instakill someone with create water with no save the wizard in question gets to act first. Foresight (i'm about to die), Celerity (Now I've got an action), Timestop (now I've got lots), killing combo of spells (flavour for preferrence and situation), restart time. Or, you know, just Contingency (teleport).

RS14
2009-07-30, 12:21 PM
I was sort of assuming we were considering core only for the moment.

Arakune
2009-07-30, 12:21 PM
Well, I'll be you're right. You can't fill his lungs with stone, [B]but you can teleport a portion of the dirt your standing on into his lungs as Teleport; Object is only a 7th level spell (and though it is said to function like teleport, but does not include the limitations, I go by the belief that it does not contain the error %) B] Now, we know that the wizard is dazed and can therefore do nothing to defend himself. We teleport his ass to the plane of fire to toast.

Okay, if you are talking about the Contingent Celerity wizard, actually goes this way:

Barbarian (Init 21): I will use my ring of three wishes to make the wizard fail his next save (whatever it is).
DM: ok.
Wizard (Init 5): Doesn't that trigger my contingency?
DM: no.
Wizard (Init 5): ...
Rogue (Init 20): I will use my ring of three wishes to teleport this vial of highly corrosive dirt to the lungs of wizard.
Wizard (Init 5): You what?! Is that even possible?
DM: Yes, for him at least. But your contingency triggers.
Wizard (Init 5): ... ok. With my standard action I cast Time Stop, maximised with the rod.
TS 1: Dazzed
TS 2~4: ???
End of time stop

Profit!

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 12:22 PM
I was sort of assuming we were considering core only for the moment.

Other than the Celerity that is, and the Contingency is by far the easier way. And it doesn't work anyway as mentioned above. so yeah, sure.

Edit: for the above, there's several ways of reading the Celerity/Timestop interaction but if the DM rules that way and the Wizard isn't immune to Daze then he wouldn't do it, just use teleport.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 12:23 PM
Daze does not affect saves or AC. It does not make you in any way defenseless.

WRONG!!!!!!!

You take no penalty to AC, but it says absolutely nothing about saves. And since a save is something that can chosen or not (one can opt out of saves if they choose) I make the assumption that a saving throw must be concentrated on, at least in part to be effective.

Arakune
2009-07-30, 12:26 PM
WRONG!!!!!!!

You take no penalty to AC, but it says absolutely nothing about saves. And since a save is something that can chosen or not (one can opt out of saves if they choose) I make the assumption that a saving throw must be concentrated on, at least in part to be effective.

Good, because it's your assumption. It's not raw or the generaly acepted rule.
Arguing about "your rules" vs "RAW, or what most people think is RAW"? If so, this entire mess is meaningless.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 12:26 PM
WRONG!!!!!!!

You take no penalty to AC, but it says absolutely nothing about saves. And since a save is something that can chosen or not (one can opt out of saves if they choose) I make the assumption that a saving throw must be concentrated on, at least in part to be effective.

I would contrast this response with your own misremembering of the Nauseated condition a few pages ago. Plus your assumption (while not completely out of ball park) is just that, an assumption. The Dazed condition says you can't take actions, something very carefully defined in DnD and a save is not an action.

RS14
2009-07-30, 12:27 PM
A saving throw is not an action.

If it was meant to deny you your saves, it would have noted it.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-30, 12:27 PM
I opened up a thread for testing the brokenness of wizards in actual fights.

No wizard-player has shown up yet. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 12:27 PM
WRONG!!!!!!!

You take no penalty to AC, but it says absolutely nothing about saves. And since a save is something that can chosen or not (one can opt out of saves if they choose) I make the assumption that a saving throw must be concentrated on, at least in part to be effective.

So... you're saying that dazes give you enough concentration to continue making full benefit of your dodge bonus, but not to use a save.


I opened up a thread for testing the brokenness of wizards in actual fights.

No wizard-player has shown up yet. :smalltongue:

As we've explicitly stuck to arguing the theoretical brokenness of Wizards on this thread...

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-30, 12:29 PM
If it denied saves, Daze would be one of the most powerful conditions in the game. I doubt it would be available as a level 0 spell.

tonberrian
2009-07-30, 12:30 PM
I opened up a thread for testing the brokenness of wizards in actual fights.

No wizard-player has shown up yet. :smalltongue:

Other than Pharoh, but he's a Sorcerer and doesn't count. :smallwink:

Mathius
2009-07-30, 12:31 PM
Okay, so the wizard knows that he is going to have his lungs filled with dirt? According to the spell Contingiency you have to state what triggers the contingiency and given the bizarre nature of what the rogue is attempting it would be up in the air as to whether the contingiency is triggered or not.

But for the sake of this argument EVERYBODY is going to assume that it does. I, however would rule otherwise, but whatever.

Every thinks wizards are unstoppable. Fine you do that.

I will agree to disagree and will bow out gracefully. I have been given a lot to think about.

Peace out.


So... you're saying that dazes give you enough concentration to continue making full benefit of your dodge bonus, but not to use a save.


Nope. I am not saying anything of the sort. The book is. I never said the system wasn't broken. Rules like this are a whole new can of worms that I have long since given up on trying to figure out.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 12:32 PM
Other than Pharoh, but he's a Sorcerer and doesn't count. :smallwink:

I both do not play Wizards and generally think people make far too much deal about them in practical play. And I'm willing to bet most of the oppers on here could destroy any of my few casters with a purely melee build, since I tend to leave at least one large oversight in them.

busterswd
2009-07-30, 12:33 PM
Okay, so the wizard knows that he is going to have his lungs filled with dirt? According to the spell Contingiency you have to state what triggers the contingiency and given the bizarre nature of what the rogue is attempting it would be up in the air as to whether the contingiency is triggered or not.

But for the sake of this argument EVERYBODY is going to assume that it does. I, however would rule otherwise, but whatever.

Every thinks wizards are unstoppable. Fine you do that.

I will agree to disagree and will bow out gracefully. I have been given a lot to think about.

Peace out.

Your only arguments resort to some extreme bias in DM ruling and again, you're attempting to use Arcane spells to prove that Arcane casters are on equal playing ground with non-Arcane classes.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 12:34 PM
Okay, so the wizard knows that he is going to have his lungs filled with dirt? According to the spell Contingiency you have to state what triggers the contingiency and given the bizarre nature of what the rogue is attempting it would be up in the air as to whether the contingiency is triggered or not.

But for the sake of this argument EVERYBODY is going to assume that it does. I, however would rule otherwise, but whatever.

Every thinks wizards are unstoppable. Fine you do that.

I will agree to disagree and will bow out gracefully. I have been given a lot to think about.

Peace out.

Actually, it is the Foresight spell (basically spidey-sense) that is giving you the heads up to use your contingency.

It works likes this:
Foresight goes off.
Perform free action Alpha of N (where N is any number of free actions).
Contingency Alpha goes off.

RS14
2009-07-30, 12:36 PM
I will agree to disagree and will bow out gracefully. I have been given a lot to think about.

Peace out.

It has been good sparring with you. Peace.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 12:41 PM
Actually, it is the Foresight spell (basically spidey-sense) that is giving you the heads up to use your contingency.

It works likes this:
Foresight goes off.
Perform free action Alpha of N (where N is any number of free actions).
Contingency Alpha goes off.

Once your Foresight spell goes off it only give you a +2 to AC and Reflex save. Only one of which will help you if you are dazed.

Not only that, but given, again, the bizarre nature of the Rogue's attack, the wizard would more than likely need to change his contingiency perameters to meet the new problem which takes a minimum of ten minutes.

Please keep in mind, this is not meant as an argument but as a discussion. I am currently learning more about the spells available and want to know more about his line of thinking.

Thanks for your understanding.

Claudius Maximus
2009-07-30, 12:50 PM
The real benefit of Foresight is not the +2 bonus (it's nice though), but rather that it makes you immune to surprise. Foresight allows the wizard to use Celerity and/or contingencies even when he would be flat-footed.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 12:50 PM
I both do not play Wizards and generally think people make far too much deal about them in practical play. And I'm willing to bet most of the oppers on here could destroy any of my few casters with a purely melee build, since I tend to leave at least one large oversight in them.

On this I agree with you. I can't stand wizards. I can't get past 1d4 hit die and having the lowest amount of skills in the game.

I just figured it out. All praise AstralFire!!

The reason I never see the whole argument is because my players always build their characters right in front of me and we play them from the ground up. So I am cherry picking their available abilities from the get to so they never actually GET any of the abilities that makes them imbalanced.

Jeezus Kryyst!!! I am sorry you all. I just came to this realization. Looking at it now, If I was presented with a 20th level wizard with freedom to reap what he could from all available material, I would be stumped. I have to admit that. I went back and looked at my buddies character and he is nowhere near what I have been seeing here.

GAWD was I wrong.

*Double facepalm*.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 12:51 PM
Once your Foresight spell goes off it only give you a +2 to AC and Reflex save. Only one of which will help you if you are dazed.


This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.

When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Bolded the important bits.


Not only that, but given, again, the bizarre nature of the Rogue's attack, the wizard would more than likely need to change his contingiency perameters to meet the new problem which takes a minimum of ten minutes.

Nah, he just clicks his heels twice and is teleported to location Omicron or something (outside the range of teleport object, since the CL of the wizard will be higher than that of the ring).

I just realized I assumed we had Craft Contingent Spell in play, but that is such a hilariously broken ability, it's best to flat out ban it.

Regardless, if we keep this strictly core (no celerity, which is another spell that should be banned in all but the most wizard-fap games), this method still works, since Foresight "gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself", which might be activating your contingency (using some free action to activate it).


Please keep in mind, this is not meant as an argument but as a discussion. I am currently learning more about the spells available and want to know more about his line of thinking.

Thanks for your understanding.

No worries.

Arakune
2009-07-30, 12:51 PM
Once your Foresight spell goes off it only give you a +2 to AC and Reflex save. Only one of which will help you if you are dazed.

Not only that, but given, again, the bizarre nature of the Rogue's attack, the wizard would more than likely need to change his contingiency perameters to meet the new problem which takes a minimum of ten minutes.

Please keep in mind, this is not meant as an argument but as a discussion. I am currently learning more about the spells available and want to know more about his line of thinking.

Thanks for your understanding.

Foresight doesn't let you get surprised. EVER. That's what make any wizard take it.

--
Ninja!

Mathius
2009-07-30, 01:02 PM
The real benefit of Foresight is not the +2 bonus (it's nice though), but rather that it makes you immune to surprise. Foresight allows the wizard to use Celerity and/or contingencies even when he would be flat-footed.

And that folks is why I hate the PHB 2.

Here is the only tried and true way to take out a wizard=

Throw SO MANY monsters at him that he uses all of his spells and them beat the **** out of him with giants and ogres.

DAMN YOU WIZARDS OF THE COAST!!


grrrr*grumble*grrrowl. I hate being wrong.

Side note: Just read this. Teleport: Object doesn't have a range limit. Wow. Never noticed that. Yeesh.

13_CBS
2009-07-30, 01:05 PM
Throw SO MANY monsters at him that he uses all of his spells and them beat the **** out of him with giants and ogres.

He teleports out when (if?) he starts to run low.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:08 PM
-pats 13 lightly-

Don't give the poor guy an aneurysm, dude.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 01:08 PM
Side note: Just read this. Teleport: Object doesn't have a range limit. Wow. Never noticed that. Yeesh.

I think it has the same range limit as Teleport; 100 miles/level.

Arakune
2009-07-30, 01:08 PM
Side note: Just read this. Teleport: Object doesn't have a range limit. Wow. Never noticed that. Yeesh.

It have. For all intent and purposes it's like the normal Teleport spell, only it affects objects instead of creatures.

--
Ninja! Part two...

tyckspoon
2009-07-30, 01:09 PM
And that folks is why I hate the PHB 2.

Here is the only tried and true way to take out a wizard=

Throw SO MANY monsters at him that he uses all of his spells and them beat the **** out of him with giants and ogres.


There was a thread here once about how a Wizard might handle being faced with: An infinite number of goblins who:
Always roll 20s while:
The wizard always rolls 1s.

IIRC, the wizard was winning (it involved creating a shelter out of a Prismatic Sphere and building defenses behind that) up until people started arguing about what 'infinite' really meant, and that it wasn't enough for the Wizard to be perfectly safe and kill a nigh-infinite number of goblins in the process, he had to get rid of every single one, and the whole thing was pointless because the infinite goblins stacked into a finite space would just collapse the campaign world into a black hole anyway so technically the Wizard loses...

Mathius
2009-07-30, 01:09 PM
He teleports out when (if?) he starts to run low.

Hopefully.

The sad part is, most jackasses that play characters like this are the same types that played fighters in the previous editions and are under the false impression that no matter how bad things get, they can still handle it.

These are the people that spend a lot of time at the character creation section because they thought their 5th level wizard could go toe to toe with a Great Wyrm Red Dragon and smoke him.

But then most of these folks don't generally have characters that high level anyway.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 01:11 PM
A wizard's spells can only last so long. They all have durations and limits. If the wizard is alone, he's screwed. Unless he finds a way out (i.e. teleport) or some such.

Isn't he?

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:11 PM
But then most of these folks don't generally have characters that high level anyway.

Most of the folks who do this in a real game don't have games. If you try anything like this on me, I do not want to DM for you, and on the rare opportunities that I get to play, I don't want you in my party. I'm sure I'm not alone here.

I like(d. I don't play D&D at the moment.) high level D&D because I like having battles over an endless chasm with pyrotechnics everywhere for the fate of the world, not for an initiative check where one person quietly dies in the middle of their study.

13_CBS
2009-07-30, 01:12 PM
A wizard's spells can only last so long. They all have durations and limits. If the wizard is alone, he's screwed. Unless he finds a way out (i.e. teleport) or some such.

Isn't he?

IIRC, metamagic tricks like Extend and Persist (is the last one only applicable to Divine spells?) can make certain things last for, effectively, the whole waking day, or most of it.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 01:14 PM
IIRC, metamagic tricks like Extend and Persist (is the last one only applicable to Divine spells?) can make certain things last for, effectively, the whole waking day, or most of it.

Persistent Spell increases spell level by 6, so you need a way to lower that cost. Clerics use Divine Metamagic, which burns turn attempts to reduce metamagic costs, but Divine Metamagic only works for divine spells.

The most common way to get a bunch of free persistent spells (like Ghostform all day) is to take 4 levels of Incantatrix. It's 4th level ability lets you use any metamagic feat you have on a spell already in place if you pass a spellcraft check. So you put all your buffs up, then persist them.

This all requires multiple splat books, of course. Complete Divine for Divine Metamagic, Libris Mortis for the magic item that gives you turn attempts to fuel your metamagic, and Player's Guide to Faerun for Incantatrix and Persistent Spell. Persistent Spell also appears in Complete Arcane.

Mathius
2009-07-30, 01:16 PM
Most of the folks who do this in a real game don't have games. If you try anything like this on me, I do not want to DM for you, and on the rare opportunities that I get to play, I don't want you in my party. I'm sure I'm not alone here.
I like(d. I don't play D&D at the moment.) high level D&D because I like having battles over an endless chasm with pyrotechnics everywhere for the fate of the world, not for an initiative check where one person quietly dies in the middle of their study.

Here, here. I can't stand these kinds of powergamers either. The only reason I let the jamoke in my group do this is because I like to keep people happy and I can usually find ways to foil his dumb ass when it comes to trying to take the game over.

I am a firm believer that when you start monkeying with time and space and become too powerful for your own good a couple of demigods descend to put you in your place. My gods all have better spells that you, better saves than you and more powers than you.

Sometimes "Rock falls, everybody dies" is the right answer.

Woodsman
2009-07-30, 01:17 PM
Frankly, my favorite weapon against casters is Antimagic Ray.

If their touch AC isn't to high, it's not that hard to watch them become utterly useless.

*Casts on wizard using fly and succeeds*
Wiz: "Crap."

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:18 PM
Frankly, my favorite weapon against casters is Antimagic Ray.

If their touch AC isn't to high, it's not that hard to watch them become utterly useless.

*Casts on wizard using fly and succeeds*
Wiz: "Crap."

I'm not familiar with that one. Where's it from?

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 01:18 PM
Frankly, my favorite weapon against casters is Antimagic Ray.

Frankly, my favorite weapon against casters is other casters.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 01:23 PM
Frankly, my favorite weapon against casters is Antimagic Ray.

If their touch AC isn't to high, it's not that hard to watch them become utterly useless.

*Casts on wizard using fly and succeeds*
Wiz: "Crap."

Eh, it gives a Will-save, making it much worse than e.g. Feeblemind (which at least applies a penalty to that save). Also, it's a Ray and thus subject to Ray Deflection-type effects.

Further, it doesn't stop using spell completion & trigger items as per description so it just forces the caster to move to his second string of abilities even if the save fails.


And finally, it has an expensive (100gp) material component. All of those make me say "just prepare the friggin' Feeblemind instead..." (or something actually useful; if you could hit 'em with Rays, e.g. Enervation is a great choice).

And it's from Spell Compendium.

tonberrian
2009-07-30, 01:23 PM
Antimagic Ray is in Draconomicon, but it might have been reprinted in Spell Compendium, I'm not sure.

Of course, few wizards are going to be without Ray Deflection (Spell Compendium), which is awesome and makes all your rays useless.

EDIT: So I was ninja'd. Partially. Does that mean I was nin'd?

HamHam
2009-07-30, 02:03 PM
D&D is a game built around having a party. So the power of a Wizard by himself is not all that relevant. What is relevant is that the optimal Core party is Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Rogue. And the optimal non-Core party is Cleric/Druid x3 and a Wizard.

Woodsman
2009-07-30, 02:14 PM
Eh, it gives a Will-save, making it much worse than e.g. Feeblemind (which at least applies a penalty to that save). Also, it's a Ray and thus subject to Ray Deflection-type effects.

Ah, I missed the Will save. I thought that was just items. That's my bad.

Still, it's a nice spell.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 02:18 PM
D&D is a game built around having a party. So the power of a Wizard by himself is not all that relevant. What is relevant is that the optimal Core party is Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Rogue. And the optimal non-Core party is Cleric/Druid x3 and a Wizard.

Optimal Core party is either Druidx2 + Wizardx2 (one Wizard going either Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3 cross-classing the Rogue-skills or Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Archmage 3) or Druid/Cleric/Wizardx2.

No reason to take a Rogue up just for monkeying when your Wizard can do it just fine; Arcane Trickster covers some more skills, of course, thanks to having them in class but Loremaster has 4+Int skills so it can cover the essentials just fine too. And Druids can patch up in-class/cross-class stuff pretty well and can afford Charisma thanks to Wildshape.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 02:41 PM
Optimal Core party is either Druidx2 + Wizardx2 (one Wizard going either Rogue 1/Wizard 6/Loremaster 10/Archmage 3 cross-classing the Rogue-skills or Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Archmage 3) or Druid/Cleric/Wizardx2.

No reason to take a Rogue up just for monkeying when your Wizard can do it just fine; Arcane Trickster covers some more skills, of course, thanks to having them in class but Loremaster has 4+Int skills so it can cover the essentials just fine too. And Druids can patch up in-class/cross-class stuff pretty well and can afford Charisma thanks to Wildshape.

Well, I wasn't counting PrCs. But Rogues can do their specific tasks better or at least at a cheaper cost than a Wizard trying to pretend to be a Rogue, IMHO. Hide, Move Silently, Search, Disable Device, and Use Magic Device is basically what you want the Rogue there for. And Polymorphing the Rogue into a Hydra so he gets like 10 attacks all with Sneak Attack should be a way to just end certain encounters.

Woodsman
2009-07-30, 02:44 PM
Look, people are generally going to say "Wizards can do it better, the optimal party is wizard x2, cleric, druid, etc., etc.," simply because they forget the whole point of the game isn't becoming the most powerful of all and making your DM cry, it's about having fun as you see fit.

The problem is people who have fun by optimizing with a wizard/wizard/cleric/druid party.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 02:45 PM
Look, people are generally going to say "Wizards can do it better, the optimal party is wizard x2, cleric, druid, etc., etc.," simply because they forget the whole point of the game isn't becoming the most powerful of all and making your DM cry, it's about having fun as you see fit.

The problem is people who have fun by optimizing with a wizard/wizard/cleric/druid party.

And my irony sensors need replacing.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 02:47 PM
When discussing optimization, don't be surprised to get answers about optimization? I doubt any of the most prominent optimizers on GitP are the type who ruin games not about optimizing, I really do.

My grandfather's deck has no replacement sensors, but it does have the unstoppable Exodia.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 02:51 PM
Look, people are generally going to say "Wizards can do it better, the optimal party is wizard x2, cleric, druid, etc., etc.," simply because they forget the whole point of the game isn't becoming the most powerful of all

You play a bunch of murderous hobos who kill things and take their stuff so that they can become more powerful and kill more bigger things to take their stuff.


The problem is people who have fun by optimizing with a wizard/wizard/cleric/druid party.

I didn't realize I had to run my hobbies past the fun police.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 02:53 PM
I don't think Woodsman is fun police any more than Tidesinger or Eldariel is Optizilla in Fluffyroleplaytokyo. There's a general background frustration with the constant discussion of this type of character, though. My general indication is that Woodsy's a good guy.

Woodsman
2009-07-30, 02:54 PM
You play a bunch of murderous hobos who kill things and take their stuff so that they can become more powerful and kill more bigger things to take their stuff.

I realize that was contradictory, but I meant being a munchkin and such.


I didn't realize I had to run my hobbies past the fun police.

Nothing like that, I'm just annoyed with those people. It's never made much sense to me.


My general indication is that Woodsy's a good guy.

Thank you. Honestly, I would run a game with a party previously mntioned, but I'd find it a pain. I'd do it, though.

Frankly, I'm not sure what I'm doing in here, so I'll leave with this comment: If it has stats, you can beat it.

D_Lord
2009-07-30, 03:02 PM
Why way of getting around this, is no one optimizes in any of the campites I been in. Not one person. Optimizing just takes so much time and work, that my players and myself don't do it. Oh sure, I could be maximize optimized but that is borading. You'll be surrisped how much fun the game can be if no one optimizes.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 03:12 PM
Why way of getting around this, is no one optimizes in any of the campites I been in. Not one person. Optimizing just takes so much time and work, that my players and myself don't do it. Oh sure, I could be maximize optimized but that is borading. You'll be surrisped how much fun the game can be if no one optimizes.

So when you gain a level and have to choose a feat, you what? Draw it out of a hat? You can't make a character without optimizing because at least some of your decisions will be about getting some kind of optimal result from your abilities.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 03:13 PM
So when you gain a level and have to choose a feat, you what? Draw it out of a hat? You can't make a character without optimizing because at least some of your decisions will be about getting some kind of optimal result from your abilities.

Let's not be overly technical here. I think we can generally make the assumption that when most people say "I don't optimize" they really mean "I do not put a great deal of effort into mechanical optimization."

HamHam
2009-07-30, 03:19 PM
Let's not be overly technical here. I think we can generally make the assumption that when most people say "I don't optimize" they really mean "I do not put a great deal of effort into mechanical optimization."

How much effort does it really take to Optimize CoDzilla or Wizard?

I'm playing a Wizard right now and my efforts at optimization are basically just a half hour of research online looking through handbooks. And even without that, it doesn't take all that much effort to realize that Polymorph is the brokenest spell ever.

For Druids, you take Natural Spell and take a cursory look in the Monster Manual for wild shape forms and your optimized. And thus better than a Fighter at fighting.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 03:21 PM
A lot of effort if you're not predisposed to think like an optimizer. You'd be surprised. It's much the same way my mother cannot understand my inability to put everything back where it came from, even when I am trying. I don't think about where I'm getting something when I get it, so when I try to think about about where to put it back, my mind draws a blank.

My sister is very smart; graduated with honors, is a lawyer, has amazing social intuition and survives politics with ease. She plays pokemon as successfully as a dead fish performs gymnastics.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-30, 03:50 PM
My sister is very smart; graduated with honors, is a lawyer, has amazing social intuition and survives politics with ease. She plays pokemon as successfully as a dead fish performs gymnastics.

I always thought Magikarp was cute...:smallsmile:

Gnaeus
2009-07-30, 03:54 PM
The problem is people who have fun by optimizing with a wizard/wizard/cleric/druid party.

Actually, thats no problem at all. They all play at the same level. No one feels bad. The DM just sets out tougher encounters.

The problem is the wizard/cleric/druid/monk party.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 03:56 PM
Actually, thats no problem at all. They all play at the same level. No one feels bad. The DM just sets out tougher encounters.

The problem is the wizard/cleric/druid/monk party.

Every mechanic has the unwanted cousin.

Psion/Wilder/Psychic Warrior/Soulknife

Incarnate/Totemist/Soulborn

Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage - oh wait, ToB is actually balanced.

sofawall
2009-07-30, 06:23 PM
Wait, ToB, balanced?

You have a new friend.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 06:27 PM
Wait, ToB, balanced?

You have a new friend.

ToB is the most balanced book of any 3.5 book, with the exception of the ruby knight vindicator.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 06:28 PM
<3 Tome of Battle.