master of deception (3.5 feat for illusionists)

[Stycotl]

Master of Deception
You know how to create such fleeting and subtle illusions that your targets do not even have the chance to note the inconsistencies and ephemeralities that mark them as phantasm, and you cast it in such a way that it plays on the reflexes and instincts of a foe.
Prerequisites: Caster level 9, Bluff 3 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks, Spell Focus: Illusions
Benefit: Any time you cast or use an illusory effect, your targets must first succeed at a Reflex save against the spell DC in order to even be capable of attempting a Will save. Targets receive a +5 bonus to the Reflex save, and if they fail, they take the full effect of the spell. If they succeed, they are allowed a Will save normally. These illusions are so potent that even creatures normally immune to illusions (through racial ability, class ability, spells, etc) are subject to them so long as they have at least a 3 Intelligence, though they gain a further +5 to all associated saving throws.
Special: Owing to the fact that this tactic exploits the reflexive nature of its targets, any illusory effect that requires or allows subsequent saving throws on subsequent rounds acts normally after the first round; thus, targets make only one Will save and normally immune creatures are again immune to the effects on round two and beyond.

[fuzzywolf]

Using a reflex save against illusions seems weird, and for such a high level feat, it doesn't seem to be that good. Illusion spells are of most effect against fighter type monsters, whose reflex save tends to be higher than their will save to begin with.

I had a homebrew feat in my last campaign for casters that was the opposite of slippery mind: it made the target roll the will save twice and use the lower of the two results. It went something like this:

Tenacious Illusions
Prerequisite: Spell Focus: Illusion
Each time a creature attempts to save against an illusion spell cast by you, they must roll two saves and use the lower of the two results. This feat negates and is negated by Slippery Mind, should the creature possess that feat.

[Stycotl]

Using a reflex save against illusions seems weird, and for such a high level feat, it doesn't seem to be that good. Illusion spells are of most effect against fighter type monsters, whose reflex save tends to be higher than their will save to begin with.

I had a homebrew feat in my last campaign for casters that was the opposite of slippery mind: it made the target roll the will save twice and use the lower of the two results. It went something like this:

Tenacious Illusions
Prerequisite: Spell Focus: Illusion
Each time a creature attempts to save against an illusion spell cast by you, they must roll two saves and use the lower of the two results. This feat negates and is negated by Slippery Mind, should the creature possess that feat.

this is still in the rough stages, so i expect to have to work out the mechanics better.

many creatures will have a good will save but a poor reflex save. i realize that some of them also have good reflex saves, but you can't win them all.

i don't like the idea of making them roll the same save twice unless it is a higher level feat. making them take the lower of two will saves seems to me pretty harsh for something that could be taken at level one.

the whole premise is that it takes advantage of holes even in the minds of creatures normally immune to illusions; this can be handled fluffwise from a variety of angles, but this is the one that i really like, and is thus the direction that i am taking with this feat: even if the creature would see through it, the illusionist has learned to present them in such a way, quick, speedy, whatever, that the target is already reacting reflexively before it even realizes that it has been duped.

that said, i am not in love with my mechanic yet, and need to test the waters before i decide if this is balanced or not.

as it is now: roll reflex +5; if successful, roll will save normally; if unsuccessful, target is subject to illusion.

another alternative that i had contemplated is roll reflex normally; if successful, target is unaffected; if unsuccessful, roll will save with -2 or -5 penalty.

there were a few others, but they are escaping my mind now, and i didn't ever write them down.