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Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 12:49 AM
I've got a problem. My campaign's final boss is a lich. Vol, specifically, for those of you who know Eberron. Necromancer. Wizard. Leader of an entire freakin' religion. Now, I want this battle to be really hard. Final boss worthy. But she's a super-intelligent evil wizard. A lich too. I don't want it to feel like I'm pulling punches, but it would be so simple for her to just shred the entire party. How can I avoid a TPK while still making the battle challenging and epic?

PId6
2009-07-30, 12:51 AM
Can you describe the party first? What level? What classes? How well optimized?

The Glyphstone
2009-07-30, 12:52 AM
Arrogance....she's been making evil schemes for longer than the entire party's been alive combined (unless you've got an Elf) - what possible threat could they really be to her personally, compared to all those pathetic minions she controls? They're not worth taking seriously...

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 12:53 AM
I've got a problem. My campaign's final boss is a lich. Vol, specifically, for those of you who know Eberron. Necromancer. Wizard. Leader of an entire freakin' religion. Now, I want this battle to be really hard. Final boss worthy. But she's a super-intelligent evil wizard. A lich too. I don't want it to feel like I'm pulling punches, but it would be so simple for her to just shred the entire party. How can I avoid a TPK while still making the battle challenging and epic?

Without fudging rolls - which is a very tricky and slippery slope - you can't. BBEGs should be the places where TPKs are the most possible, or it's cheapened. The trick is that a TPK doesn't have to be unrecoverable; you could fast forward the session after to three years later... and a new party (ones they can play as substitute PCs, if they so desire) has just rescued them, for example, bringing material to recover the best and brightest hope to stop the boss.

Just as one popular example of "TPK and sequel."

PId6
2009-07-30, 12:55 AM
Arrogance....she's been making evil schemes for longer than the entire party's been alive combined (unless you've got an Elf) - what possible threat could they really be to her personally, compared to all those pathetic minions she controls? They're not worth taking seriously...
That always felt like a cliche cop-out to me. If the BBEG is super-intelligent, and the PCs have gotten that far, then completely underestimating them and just toying around just doesn't seem fitting.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 01:01 AM
Not very optimized at all.

The level? The game hasn't really started yet. I want to nip this in the bud if I have to. I was kicking it off at 10th, for some seasoned adventurers, and they should be eighteen-twenty before they face the big bad herself.

The party consists of:
Human psion (kineticist, loves the blasty-powers)
Drow scout (Savage hunter kind of feel)
Thri-Keen barbarian. (Dual-wielding those thri-keen double blades.)
Dragonborn dragon shaman (Pretty much the only source of healing for the party.)
Warforged monk (disgruntled ex-soldier with a grudge against undead)

The Glyphstone
2009-07-30, 01:04 AM
That always felt like a cliche cop-out to me. If the BBEG is super-intelligent, and the PCs have gotten that far, then completely underestimating them and just toying around just doesn't seem fitting.

Oh, it is a cop-out, but it's pretty much the only way to explain why the lich hasn't killed them all via scry-and-die attacks with Astral Projections out of a personal demiplane already, before they even get to her. The alternatives are handing the BBEG a massive Idiot Ball and handwaving the consequences, or just going ahead and eradicating them. And with a lich who's basically worshipped as a god, it's at least vaguely in-character for it/her to not make a huge distinction between one bunch of puny mortal ants that follow it and a second group of puny mortal ants who are busy killing the first bunch. Hubris is a classic downfall of otherwise unbeatable entities in a lot of old myths.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:05 AM
Not very optimized at all.

The level? The game hasn't really started yet. I want to nip this in the bud if I have to. I was kicking it off at 10th, for some seasoned adventurers, and they should be eighteen-twenty before they face the big bad herself.

The party consists of:
Human psion (kineticist, loves the blasty-powers)
Drow scout (Savage hunter kind of feel)
Thri-Keen barbarian. (Dual-wielding those thri-keen double blades.)
Dragonborn dragon shaman (Pretty much the only source of healing for the party.)
Warforged monk (disgruntled ex-soldier with a grudge against undead)

I say, don't worry about the final battle just yet. If you're going to worry about anything, make sure there are reasons she doesn't notice them before they gain a level of relative competency to her.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 01:06 AM
Without fudging rolls - which is a very tricky and slippery slope - you can't. BBEGs should be the places where TPKs are the most possible, or it's cheapened. The trick is that a TPK doesn't have to be unrecoverable; you could fast forward the session after to three years later... and a new party (ones they can play as substitute PCs, if they so desire) has just rescued them, for example, bringing material to recover the best and brightest hope to stop the boss.

Just as one popular example of "TPK and sequel."
While I do agree the TPK should be possible, the way it's going now, a TPK is not just possible, it's pretty much guaranteed. I want it to be dangerous, to be a fairly even match, not an outright slaughter.

Salt_Crow
2009-07-30, 01:10 AM
Being a 3.6k yrs old, I'd say Erandis Vol would indeed have some impressive array of contingent plans/spells and permanant spells that guard herself personally and the fortress that she calls home.

She'd have vampires and mummies (her high priest is a CR 14 mummy cleric, iirc) residing in her palace 24/7, although the majority of the religion would only be vaguely aware of the "Queen of the Dead" who is a powerful champion of their faith. Also, She's been depicted alongside her fanatics at least once (FoE cover), so that would need to come into calculation at some point.

Vol herself is 16th-level Half green dragon lich elf with a nonfunctional mark of death. I wouldn't expect her to be all that much of a challenge to a well-prepared party with ECL 17 or over if fought directly though. So I'd be more concerned with the manner of minions she'd have around the place and on the final fight itself.

If it'd be of any help, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20090703) is her stat block from 4e, which would give you a very approximate idea of her ability scores (drop the Con score though XD).


Also: If I could assume that the party would be, in some way, in the line of Vol's scheme of things So it could be safely assumed that she'll have a very good sense of the PCs' capabilities. Use it to your advantage to close the gap between "9th-level power/spell wielding PCs" and Vol.

Jade_Tarem
2009-07-30, 01:11 AM
Either your party has to be epic enough (not literally) that however many of them exist can take one of her, or you have to establish circumstances leading to a scenario that makes her defeat a possiblity, but far from a certainty.

Without seeing any numbers for your party, campaign notes for your game, and without digging out my Eberron book to look for Vol, I can only advise in broad strokes.

There are a few questions to consider. The big one is "What does she have that makes her unbeatable?" That's what you have to have the PCs (not you, the PCs) take away from her. Once again, I'm not familiar with Vol, but going by your description, her awesomeness comes from experience, magical might, her lich status, and her religion, complete with army of presumably fanatical followers. We'll take them one at a time.

Experience - Something leading up to the fight should be a total curveball, something not even the nigh-immortal Vol has seen before. Randomness and Chaos favor the underdog. As the old saying goes, the best swordsman in the world doesn't fear the second-best, he fears the worst, because there's no telling what that moron will do. The wackier the circumstances, the less benefit timeless wisdom and ruthless calculation are.

Magical Might - Eberron is rife with magic, and if the PCs can get their hands on some, that's dandy. If they can attack her when she's low on spells and somehow unable to get away, even better.

The truth is, there is no real "good" way to attack a high-level caster. The situation has to be pretty extreme to catch a caster unaware, unprepared, and unable to get away in order to rectify those two problems. I would venture to say that they would need to take Vol on at the climax of a big and particularly draining operation, so that she'll be partially depleted of high level spells and possibly without the means to just teleport away when things go bad. Make this a tactical exercise for the players. Have NPCs drop hints of how badass Vol is and talk about how difficult it would be to catch her with her pants down, and then talk about how attacking her head on when she's fully prepared would be suicide. They should get it.

Lichdom - the lich thing can be solved with enough preparation on the part of the players. Once again, magic abounds on Eberron, and the task of making sure Vol stays dead after they've already beaten her can be hired out to the Silver Flame or another good aligned organization if the players can't or won't do it themselves.

Religion/Followers - This isn't so bad. The good news is that manpower is manpower and you can only put so many goons in one place at one time. The bad news is that you have to come up with a good reason why they don't all show up to take on the PCs - even though it's not logical that she would have 100% of her dudes on bodyguard duty, you still have to come up with a reason why they're not. The obvious answer is that her undead minions and followers are busy doing something else - carrying out plans, fighting off a diversionary attack, whatever. It's not inconceivable that she could be low on reinforcements at the same time she's low on magical firepower - just unlikely. Again, make this a tactical excerise in creative thinking for the PCs: can they come up with a way to make this situation come about? It will be more rewarding if they engineer her downfall than any Death Star Shot type deal could ever be.

Don't get rid of all the minions, though. BBEGs should never let themselves be naked during the final fight.

Other questions include the hows and whys - stuff you can fill in on your own.

I hope that helps.

Edit: Hextuple Ninja'd!

Edit again: I wouldn't let the party take her on at over level sixteen. If they have ninth level spells and she doesn't, that's pretty much good game.

JonestheSpy
2009-07-30, 01:18 AM
Well, to once again to resort to my habit of referencing the literature, if you go back and read the literature that inspired fantasy RPG's, it's quite common that the Great Evil Foe was way beyond the heroes ability to confront directly. Aside from Tolkien, we saw Elric and other of Moorcock's characters questing for powerful artifacts or allies that would defeat the villain for them (like the Horn of Fate that summoned the gods of Law to fight the Gods of Chaos), as did Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, the Prydain Chronicles, and many others.

Now DnD doesn't have much in the way of rules about artifacts-that-empower-yet-make-vulnerable their creators, but there's endless ways to get around that. What if your villain has imprisoned an insanely powerful Outer Planar being, and the player's quest is not to take down the villain in a stand-up battle (though it may be fun to have them try and barely survive), but learn about the existence of said being and free it to take its revenge? Or they could quest for a powerful artifact that will protect them from the worst of the villains powers, so they actually have a chance of winning the battle.

The_JJ
2009-07-30, 01:19 AM
Check out Rich's Villian Making device. Sounds like you're using a third party source but there is lots of pertinent advice in there.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:28 AM
Check out Rich's Villian Making device. Sounds like you're using a third party source but there is lots of pertinent advice in there.

Vol is an important NPC from Eberron.

PId6
2009-07-30, 01:31 AM
Hmm, as long as you're not cheesing her out (i.e. Celerity, Contingent spells), I'd be much more worried about the fight being much too easy for the PCs.

The psion can go crazy nova on her, seeing as it's the final battle and all, so that'd do a huge amount of damage. The barbarian and the dragon shaman can do some great damage as well, if they manage to get close to her. The other two have it a bit rougher but they can still hold up her minions. One or two PCs might die at most, but without 9th level spells or an absurd amount of minions, she really doesn't stand too much of a chance overall.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:39 AM
A moderate level of cheese will be necessary in order to keep her a challenge for a party around her level, I think. I really do think the focus here should be on making it so Vol doesn't have a good reason to cherry pick the party off at a lower level once they start getting a bit competent. You don't get to be that old by being careless.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 01:39 AM
Either your party has to be epic enough (not literally) that however many of them exist can take one of her, or you have to establish circumstances leading to a scenario that makes her defeat a possiblity, but far from a certainty.

Without seeing any numbers for your party, campaign notes for your game, and without digging out my Eberron book to look for Vol, I can only advise in broad strokes.

There are a few questions to consider. The big one is "What does she have that makes her unbeatable?" That's what you have to have the PCs (not you, the PCs) take away from her. Once again, I'm not familiar with Vol, but going by your description, her awesomeness comes from experience, magical might, her lich status, and her religion, complete with army of presumably fanatical followers. We'll take them one at a time.

Experience - Something leading up to the fight should be a total curveball, something not even the nigh-immortal Vol has seen before. Randomness and Chaos favor the underdog. As the old saying goes, the best swordsman in the world doesn't fear the second-best, he fears the worst, because there's no telling what that moron will do. The wackier the circumstances, the less benefit timeless wisdom and ruthless calculation are.

Magical Might - Eberron is rife with magic, and if the PCs can get their hands on some, that's dandy. If they can attack her when she's low on spells and somehow unable to get away, even better.

The truth is, there is no real "good" way to attack a high-level caster. The situation has to be pretty extreme to catch a caster unaware, unprepared, and unable to get away in order to rectify those two problems. I would venture to say that they would need to take Vol on at the climax of a big and particularly draining operation, so that she'll be partially depleted of high level spells and possibly without the means to just teleport away when things go bad. Make this a tactical exercise for the players. Have NPCs drop hints of how badass Vol is and talk about how difficult it would be to catch her with her pants down, and then talk about how attacking her head on when she's fully prepared would be suicide. They should get it.

Lichdom - the lich thing can be solved with enough preparation on the part of the players. Once again, magic abounds on Eberron, and the task of making sure Vol stays dead after they've already beaten her can be hired out to the Silver Flame or another good aligned organization if the players can't or won't do it themselves.

Religion/Followers - This isn't so bad. The good news is that manpower is manpower and you can only put so many goons in one place at one time. The bad news is that you have to come up with a good reason why they don't all show up to take on the PCs - even though it's not logical that she would have 100% of her dudes on bodyguard duty, you still have to come up with a reason why they're not. The obvious answer is that her undead minions and followers are busy doing something else - carrying out plans, fighting off a diversionary attack, whatever. It's not inconceivable that she could be low on reinforcements at the same time she's low on magical firepower - just unlikely. Again, make this a tactical excerise in creative thinking for the PCs: can they come up with a way to make this situation come about? It will be more rewarding if they engineer her downfall than any Death Star Shot type deal could ever be.

Don't get rid of all the minions, though. BBEGs should never let themselves be naked during the final fight.

Other questions include the hows and whys - stuff you can fill in on your own.

I hope that helps.

Edit: Hextuple Ninja'd!

Now THIS is good advice. Allow me to explain what I can. Party, STAY OUT.

The entire campaign focuses around Vol aquiring strange and powerful artifacts and devices. Stealing bones from the Talenta Boneyard, artifacts from giant ruins in Xen'Drik, gathering corpses from the Mournland... The overarching plan is her producing a relatively nerfed flesh colossus and using it to lay waste to cities as a form of flagship as the rest of her undead and zealot forces make their moves and assault strategic targets all across the land. She's not alone, either. She's working with the Lord of Blades whose warforged forces work well where mindless undead don't. He believes he can turn on her once he has her trust and take the momentum over, finshing the assault, but with himself as top dog. She also has a few other lieutenants, like an incredibly strong weretouched shifter with a beef against the Silver Flame. He doesn't know the extent of her plans, but thinks her a strong ally, and one he'll need to destroy the silver flame once and for all. She also has a charismatic changeling who follows her religiously and serves as a diplomatic manipulator, weakening alliances and twisting words, tricking nations into aiming their big weapons against one another, instead of at the threat in their midst. A few others, too, but I don't have time to put them all down.

The battle I was planning on pits her and/or her lieutenants against the PCs, waging battle inside the rampaging colossus which is being controlled and powered by her phylactery installed inside it's skull.

The party have little interest in optimizing, a decision I support. The characters are interesting before they are powerful. They work to make the character as powerful as possible within the confines of their idea, but they strongly dislike game-breaking and characters that work well but just look silly. As for ninth-level spells, the only caster among them is the psion, and she's just in it to make things explode. Almost exclusively direct damage. She has a FEW utility powers, but she really is staying focused on the whole 'blow sheet up' concept.

While she may not have an absurd AMOUNT of minions, the main lieutenants are devious bastards, and VERY powerful. Also, I wasn't going by the exact builds given. She was either going to be full twenty wizard, or maybe even Dread Necro.

EDIT: There will also be pretty ridiculous amounts of backstabbing, double-crossing, lying, broken promises and other such things among her and her 'allies'. She is not at all lonely at the top, and fully intends to eliminate ALL major competition at some point.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-30, 01:48 AM
My campaign's final boss is a lich. Vol, specifically, for those of you who know Eberron. Necromancer. Wizard. Leader of an entire freakin' religion.

vs


they should be eighteen-twenty before they face the big bad herself.

The party consists of:
Human psion (kineticist, loves the blasty-powers)
Drow scout (Savage hunter kind of feel)
Thri-Keen barbarian. (Dual-wielding those thri-keen double blades.)
Dragonborn dragon shaman (Pretty much the only source of healing for the party.)
Warforged monk (disgruntled ex-soldier with a grudge against undead)


OK. It's too early to figure out details the final battle if that's what you are asking.

But typically you want to have the party fight their way into the lich's lair filled with plenty of powerful protectors, undead, dragons, etc. Then have the lich and her plentiful undead bodyguards confront the party. The lich at first uses defensive, debuffing, and summoning spells while her minions attack. Once the PCs eliminate the minions, have the lich retreat to another part of her lair. The PCs then have to fight their way towards this new position while the lich rebuffs (with different buffs for variety). When they find her or she finds them, have her fight solo or with a few summoned creatures/last ditch minions and with offensive spells. If she fights with offensive spells while other creatures are effective at screen her then yeah she gets a TPK.

Why do something like this? Because it makes for good drama. The PCs have defeat the lich twice so to speak. This same idea is used in many modules like The Queen of the Demon Web Pits (Lolth) and The Lich Queen's Beloved (Githyanki lich queen).

If you need justification for you BBEG, then take note that the lich over centuries has time to prepare and most attackers don't even get close to to the first battle. The PCs are an exception. Of the few that do get to the first battle with the lich, most get TPK'ed. The PCs are an exception. Certainly those that survive the first battle and force her into the the second battle have all lost. Again the PCs are (hopefully) the exception.

JaxGaret
2009-07-30, 02:00 AM
There's a couple of different paths you can take here:

1) Plan for a TPK. That's right, assume that Vol is going to TPK the party - how can you incorporate that into your story in an awesome way?

2) Ye olde avatar trick. They defeat Vol handily, and all is well... except it wasn't Vol that they defeated, it was Vol's stand-in. Vol is off doing something more important anyway, though, so they can count it as a victory over the forces of evil for now. This can be a bit of a letdown for the PCs, though.

3) Divine assistance. Just a little nudge or a little protection from the gods at a crucial juncture can make all the difference - just don't make it "Suddenly you win, Vol is dead, lolgods did it".

Kaihaku
2009-07-30, 02:30 AM
Let them know what they're up against and don't pull any punches.
Over the course of the game give them in-character access to all the information they need to know the full capabilities of the BBEG. Make it clear that you won't be pulling any punches both IC and OOC. Give them plenty of resources and opportunities to prepare themselves in any way they see fit for the battle. Then when it comes don't pull any punches. That way the ball is completely in their court. They have time to seek allies (including other supernaturals and deities), prepare powerful magical items, set contingencies, etc. Tell them both IC and OOC to, in the words of Scar, be prepared. Then, if they don't, well you warned them...but if they do prepare and they manage to win then they earned something worthwhile.

Thrawn183
2009-07-30, 02:36 AM
In character effort.

She's old, she's prepared. They have to screw up her plans.

She has allies? They need to be dealt with first. (or a plan first needs to be made TO deal with them).

NPC assistance. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the PC's calling in a few favors when it comes to the final battle.

The key is that there is no way for the PC's to just walk up to her, kill her and walk away feeling like they accomplished something.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 03:12 AM
You could always give the PCs a Secret Weapon.


Not very optimized at all.

The level? The game hasn't really started yet. I want to nip this in the bud if I have to. I was kicking it off at 10th, for some seasoned adventurers, and they should be eighteen-twenty before they face the big bad herself.

The party consists of:
Human psion (kineticist, loves the blasty-powers)
Drow scout (Savage hunter kind of feel)
Thri-Keen barbarian. (Dual-wielding those thri-keen double blades.)
Dragonborn dragon shaman (Pretty much the only source of healing for the party.)
Warforged monk (disgruntled ex-soldier with a grudge against undead)

I would recommend taking some of those builds to CharOp and having them squeeze a little more out of them.

The psion should be fine, as long as he picks up some utility spells, and you use a lot of minions (low HD, using aid another + low level bard/white raven tactics/clerics abilities and spells to be a credible threat) in encounters to get blasted by him. Use a lesser version of Drow, or allow LA buyoff, and then point the scout towards a few levels in ranger and the Swift Hunter feat. If he picks up undead as a favored enemy, he'll get to add skirmish damage vs. them!! You could maybe give the thri-kreen a level in Totemist for another set of limbs and use the whirling frenzy rage variant, to really get a lot of attacks. I think with multiweapon fighting, you don't take additional penalties for each limb, unlike with TWF. Rage should be a fairly decent source of static damage. I don't know much about dragon shamans, but I hear they can make pretty good battlefield controllers with their breath weapon. As for the monk, have him go with the unarmed swordsage variant instead. As an added bonus, he won't have to take a feat just to be unarmored, so the wisdom penalty will be less of a blow.

As for healing, a wand of CLW is only 750 gp and makes a terrific, cheap, out of combat source of healing. A wand of lesser vigor is even better.

Jayngfet
2009-07-30, 03:16 AM
A BBEG needs goals, tombs to plunder, things to steal. These things often take up a lot of time. If the BBEG is spending all 20+INT of his brain figuring out how to get to the end of a dungeon before the PC's or take a well guarded tome from it's also 20+INT rightful owner they'll spend a lot less time thinking about something minions should be able to take care of. Odds are if the situation is time consuming enough they'll fall into cliche and tell them to take the nearest elite mook as a boss and not think twice, as opposed to just having everyone available charge/

Alleine
2009-07-30, 03:44 AM
Encourage the players to come up with a mindboggling way to begin an assault on her. It doesn't really work if she's buried underground in a super-secure fortress, but my first thought is "Where is she? Can we ram a airship/lightning train into it?" If you're really worried, give them allies who can take some of the heat off. By lvl 20 they should have SOMEONE who likes them enough to provide some backup.

For example: They know she's got a zillion loyal unto death(and then some) followers, so the PCs recruit some buddies who go in with them and can give them X amount of rounds to deal with the lich who gets very limited/no reinforcements before they're overrun/forced to pull out and the battle relies entirely on the PCs.

Give them some sort of magical artifact that helps them bypass specific defenses she has. Heck, dragons are a focus of Eberron, a sidequest could be going to the dragons and asking pretty-please for an anti-lich weapon. If that doesn't suit your fancy, make sure they've got the best anti-undead weapons that money can buy. Get the deathless elf guys to give them some magical one-use ability to ignore a certain power of hers.
Eberron is rife with magic. It practically grows on trees, and there are several major powerful factions strewn across the place. Get them to lend aid, no matter how small.

Jayngfet
2009-07-30, 03:48 AM
The place is underground? Well then the solution is simple. Cast animate object onto an adamantine lance, use knowledge (engeneering and artchetecture) and the appropreate craft skill to make a drill and burrow directly in.


Of course that's just my two cp.

AslanCross
2009-07-30, 04:22 AM
Not very optimized at all.

The level? The game hasn't really started yet. I want to nip this in the bud if I have to. I was kicking it off at 10th, for some seasoned adventurers, and they should be eighteen-twenty before they face the big bad herself.

The party consists of:
Human psion (kineticist, loves the blasty-powers)
Drow scout (Savage hunter kind of feel)
Thri-Keen barbarian. (Dual-wielding those thri-keen double blades.)
Dragonborn dragon shaman (Pretty much the only source of healing for the party.)
Warforged monk (disgruntled ex-soldier with a grudge against undead)

What's the Dragonborn's former race? I'm assuming this is 3.5.

Psion: Will be fine. They can get a lot of mileage out of their PP, though of course Vol can (and should) cast defensive spells vs that. This is Vol we're talking about. Since she has Team Rocket the Emerald Claw working for her, she would definitely have a way of knowing about the PCs messing with her plans in advance.

Drow Scout: He's going to need a way to deal damage to undead, as this is an undead-heavy campaign from the looks of it. Ranger levels plus Swift Hunter will bypass undead immunity to precision damage, IIRC.

Thri-Keen: I'm sure he has some optimization planned.

Dragonborn Dragon Shaman: That's some pretty minor healing. I doubt a straight-classed Dragon Shaman 18 is going to be able to do much.

Warforged Monk: Any chances of you letting him play Swordsage instead? XP Multiclassing with Swordsage is also a good idea.

Anyway, PCs always have an ace up their sleeve when fighting liches---the phylacteries. If they can get to her phylactery somehow before they fight her, they've got a pretty good chance of screwing Vol over, undead legions notwithstanding. Of course, they still have to beat her.

bosssmiley
2009-07-30, 09:25 AM
See if you can't find a copy of "Van Richten's Guide to the Lich" for Ravenloft. That has an entire chapter on making lich fighting into a nasty, vicious, party-grinding "We are never doing that again!" horrorshow.

Vol's been brushing off avenging heroes for centuries. She knows every trick in the book. Heck, she probably edited the revised edition of the book!

In the climactic battle you shouldn't pull your punches as DM. Don't be afraid to kill PCs at this juncture. Be dramatic about it. Run your players through the wringer, make them struggle and sweat for every foothold and strike. They'll relish it.

If the party goes down to a TPK (and be very aware that unless they play hard and smart, they might) then that's what happens. It makes Vol's legend all the greater and the players' next attempt to bring her down (battle on the crown-bridge of a rampaging Flesh Colossus perhaps?) all the more vengeance-charged and satisfying.

Epinephrine
2009-07-30, 09:40 AM
I don't see it as handing the BBEG an idiot ball if she underestimates the party.
How regularly does she deal with adventurers? Over how long a period?
How many other plots is she managing?
Where are her resources being expended? Is she mostly scrying other powerful foes?
How meteoric a rise has the party had? Could she be relying on older intel that suggest the party is less capable?
If there is intrigue among her people, is it possible that her intelligence is being skewed? Is there a reason that she might be mislead as to the threat against her?

Of course, she should have backup plans, but many of them will be of the "get the heck out and re-assess" variety.

Lapak
2009-07-30, 09:59 AM
Jade_Tarem gave you the core of the advice you need, and I recommend you read that carefully. In terms of implementing it, I'm going to need to reference the information you put under spoilers. So that's a heads-up for any players; stay out.
Your envisioned final battle does give you the platform you need to allow the PCs to hit her while she's weakened. If they have the opportunity to find out about the looseness of her alliances and the opportunism that is all over it, they may be able to engineer one or more conflicts between baddies right before they make their own assault. Make sure you give them opportunities to do this. Maybe they catch one of the lieutenants setting up to betray her right after the colossus attack; they can either blackmail him into betraying her earlier or inform her somehow of his plans; either way this moves the conflict up to a time more beneficial to the good guys. A Vol who has just spent half her spell slots putting down a palace rebellion will be easier to beat; one who has been forced to Dominate or otherwise influence some of her rebellious allies is surrounded by forces a little less adaptable than they should be. But if the players don't take advantage of the weaknesses in her position, they can and should get absolutely hammered. Don't have her underestimate the party - just make sure they have the chance to give her bigger and more immediate problems and they might be able to slip under her radar long enough to succeed.

The other good advice you've been getting is to prepare the ground for a TPK and/or to figure out what happens if the players retreat. What is the fallout if the PCs fail? If they are defeated? What are the consequences for the campaign, and what kind of followup would be possible? Heroes aren't heroes if their victory is predetermined, and you should be planning for the 'worst.'

valadil
2009-07-30, 10:25 AM
I've got a problem. My campaign's final boss is a lich. Vol, specifically, for those of you who know Eberron. Necromancer. Wizard. Leader of an entire freakin' religion. Now, I want this battle to be really hard. Final boss worthy. But she's a super-intelligent evil wizard. A lich too. I don't want it to feel like I'm pulling punches, but it would be so simple for her to just shred the entire party. How can I avoid a TPK while still making the battle challenging and epic?

Put this burden on your players. Make it clear that they'll get slaughtered if they go for a full frontal assault. Maybe they'll find a way to weaken her first. Maybe they'll distract her. Maybe they'll subvert the church of Vol and then attack. Maybe they'll somehow get ahold of her phylactery. If they don't do any of these things, let them get slaughtered. Whatever measures they take should make the battle more favorable.

Just remember that if you do TPK the party, those players will forever live in terror of the name Vol. You can use this to your advantage in your next campaign.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-30, 10:55 AM
Keep in mind that the party should not normally meet the lich directly until much later. So from level 10 to level 15 say, they do not meet the lich but only meet her subordinates.

However, the adventure arc must have some hook whereby the PCs encounter the lich. And such a hook must include the possibility that the BBEG does not bring everything to bear down on the PCs. It's no different than any other adventure really. As the DM if you want to kill the PCs, even with below ECL critters, that's easy to do. The problem is handing the PCs an appropriate encounter.

So typically, the first encounter with the BBEG is one where the point is to stop not destroy the BBEG. For ex, the party might learn the lich is trying to achieve minor goal X and their job is to stop the lich from doing X and this can be done in any number of ways without destroying the lich. The lich for her part is concentrated on larger plans and killing the party that is trying to stop her from doing X is not a high priority.

Later on, say at levels 18-19, the PCs job is to destroy the lich. If at that point they try a full frontal assault against the lich's army say, that should be doomed to failure though not necessarily a TPK. But PCs are by nature Special Ops teams. So at that point, the PCs should have a hook that lets them fight the lich in her lair. By this point the lich should be aware of the party and be prepared defensively against them. But since the lich has a lot of resources, it is more memorable to have her drag out the fight than to go nova on the PCs.

A good example of this is OotS. In the first two encounters with lich, the party was only supposed to stop the lich from controlling the gates. Roy got killed for going toe to toe with Xykon. But in the third encounter, soul spliced V got a beat down for the frontal assault but survived. Now the party and Xykon are headed to yet another but not necessarily final showdown.

Indon
2009-07-30, 11:27 AM
Magical item which reduces the Lich's power temporarily, which the PCs had to get from a previous quest?

Say, in mechanical terms, a single-use, targeted, epic-power dispel effect which strips her enchantments, fizzles her items, and throws in Dimensional Anchor to finish it off.

As for potential minions, have the PC's be backed up by an army or group of NPC supporters who can take on the Lich's forces and leave the boss to them.

So have some quests along the way be about accumulating allies and preparing for the big fight. You don't need to tell half the party to go roll new classes or cheese up their builds or anything.

Alternately, let them go a couple more levels than planned and start gaining epic abilities - it doesn't look like any of them are going to be exploitative about it, so for them it'd probably be okay.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 11:43 AM
Wow, a lot of good advice! It seems that many of you could benefit from these details. Please read and advise. Party, stay out or I take your legs. NOT joking.

The entire campaign focuses around Vol aquiring strange and powerful artifacts and devices. Stealing bones from the Talenta Boneyard, artifacts from giant ruins in Xen'Drik, gathering corpses from the Mournland... The overarching plan is her producing a relatively nerfed flesh colossus and using it to lay waste to cities as a form of flagship as the rest of her undead and zealot forces make their moves and assault strategic targets all across the land. She's not alone, either. She's working with the Lord of Blades whose warforged forces work well where mindless undead don't. He believes he can turn on her once he has her trust and take the momentum over, finshing the assault, but with himself as top dog. She also has a few other lieutenants, like an incredibly strong weretouched shifter with a beef against the Silver Flame. He doesn't know the extent of her plans, but thinks her a strong ally, and one he'll need to destroy the silver flame once and for all. She also has a charismatic changeling who follows her religiously and serves as a diplomatic manipulator, weakening alliances and twisting words, tricking nations into aiming their big weapons against one another, instead of at the threat in their midst. A few others, too, but I don't have time to put them all down.

The battle I was planning on pits her and/or her lieutenants against the PCs, waging battle inside the rampaging colossus which is being controlled and powered by her phylactery installed inside it's skull.

The party have little interest in optimizing, a decision I support. The characters are interesting before they are powerful. They work to make the character as powerful as possible within the confines of their idea, but they strongly dislike game-breaking and characters that work well but just look silly. As for ninth-level spells, the only caster among them is the psion, and she's just in it to make things explode. Almost exclusively direct damage. She has a FEW utility powers, but she really is staying focused on the whole 'blow sheet up' concept.

While she may not have an absurd AMOUNT of minions, the main lieutenants are devious bastards, and VERY powerful. Also, I wasn't going by the exact builds given. She was either going to be full twenty wizard, or maybe even Dread Necro.

EDIT: There will also be pretty ridiculous amounts of backstabbing, double-crossing, lying, broken promises and other such things among her and her 'allies'. She is not at all lonely at the top, and fully intends to eliminate ALL major competition at some point.

Kalirren
2009-07-30, 11:56 AM
There's always the classic, 'enemy of an enemy is a friend.'

Seconded. In particular, there's one very big enemy Vol has right now - Karrnath. And Karrnath's also a relatively new power on Vol's timescale, easy for her to underestimate.

Underestimating one big power in the equation is one thing. You have safeguards for that sort of stuff. Underestimating two (both Karrnath -and- the PCs) could genuinely catch her unawares.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 12:06 PM
Piggybacking off of that, perhaps she could make machinations (once she identifies the PCs as a potential longterm threat) to have a bad run in with Karrnath or another power she views as an issue, only for them to somehow come to an understanding and begin quiet collaborations, beneath her notice.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 12:12 PM
Karrnath is a divided state on this issue, though. Many loyal followers of Vol's religion live there there, but the leadership really hates her at the same time. There in lies the issue. With Vol's agents working to strengthen their hold on the cultists and sway over whoever else they can, the nation would be far from unified in any attack on her.

Umael
2009-07-30, 12:14 PM
Not for your situation in particular, but just some general advice:

Allies - Defeating a BBEG can be a sole (well, group) event, but wouldn't it be better to do it with some backup? An old gold dragon with a grudge, a deva with a set of orders, a dwarven king with a crack squad of hand-picked warriors... or for that matter, why look at just good? Even a devil or a chromatic dragon could make a temporary ally if your campaign will support it.

Traitors - The insubordinate lieutenant with ambitions or a reason for revenge might undermine the BBEG. If someone within the evil organization is sabotaging the BBEG's powerful magical items, the BBEG might even be in the mind of a painful reorganization and investigation, leaving said BBEG vulnerable to attack. Having a "close" source give detailed descriptions of the BBEG's secret plans could be enough to swing the tides of victory... or it could just be part of an elaborate double-cross.

Rivals - Similar to traitors, this involves getting another BBEG to soften up the target for you, be it by luck, design, or accident*. The PCs could never defeat Villain A or Villain B, but after Villain A gave Villain B a pounding, the PCs could move in to finish the job after Villain A has fled. Incidentally, this is a good way to handle more regular encounters that are at a higher CR than the party could handle.

* Luck - The dread mindflayer lord has been harassing the ancient red dragon for years. Eventually, the DML is going to be making another assault on the ARD, anytime now...
Design - After a little diplomacy and/or trickery, the party get the DML to attack the ARD.
Accident - Whether or not the DML is aware of the PCs, the annoying twits manage to distract the ARD and breach its defenses in a few places. Seizing the opportunity, the DML attacks while the ARD's vulernable...

Overconfidence - It's been mentioned before, just making sure it's on the list.

Boredom - See Xykon.

Secret weakness - See Sauron. Or Smaug.

Insanity - While it might be funny to have a powerful wizard lashing out at an insect with a fireball, it is also terrifying. Or maybe just before killing one of the PCs, the dragon gets this weird look and starts talking to the PC, referring to him or her by someone else's name and treating that person as a trusted ally - and then the next moment snapping to its senses and shredding said PC. Worse, if the villain is cunning, you can never tell if the villain is doing something because it furthers his or her plans or because the funny voices told it to do so. It also gives the DM an excuse to have the PCs meet the BBEG once or twice, face-to-face, before the final confrontation. Imagine the look on the players' faces when an insane mindflayer, flanked by numerous minions, invites your Level 3 party to tea, has tea with them, and then dismisses them with "I'll see you next Wednesday, same time, ta!"

Gentleman's agreement - "No, no, Thog, we're still civilized." Also, see any main villain who goes against James Bond. This could be anything from, "Let's make it sporting. I won't use any spells above 5th!" to "I knew your father. Good man, but he didn't see the truth behind my... revelations. In his memory, I'll go easy on you..." A modified version of this is to have the BBEG temporarily foregoing the use of special abilities in order to impress someone (its god, its girlfriend, both, whatever - "Look, Ma, no hands!"**).

** - Sorry about the sequence there. Don't read anything into it.

The Cost of the Ritual - See the Mayor from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or Fu Leng from Legend of the Five Rings. Or the Mummy from The Mummy Returns (once in the Scorpion King's layer). The price of power leaves the BBEG vulnerable long enough for the PCs to take him or her down.

...
That's all I've got for right now. Hope that helps someone...

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 12:14 PM
All the more reason to keep an alliance with the PCs quiet. That gives you your 'unexpected strength' so that she can underestimate them without it just being mere arrogance.

Voldecanter
2009-07-30, 12:18 PM
After Reading the "Complete Guide to Liches" I have a suggestion :

Liches due to their Phylactery , are prone to dangerous attacks .
Let's say that your party faces her in a Castle , if they have some Magical Might , and Mighty Strength to be a threat to her , she may blow the Castle Up with her in it , while knowing that she will come back , and your party won't but , lets not use "Blow Up" lets use this route :

Your Party has Some Ancient Magic and Weapons that will make them a threat to your lich , the lich much Like Ganondorf in OOT , Starts a Castle Self Destruct Sequence , hoping to kill the party within it , she will try to escape after that , but your party should make escape hard for her to do . If she is a VERY Smart Lich , she won't have her Phylactery on her , she may have a decoy on her , and the Phylactery is somewhere very secret and protective : Like a Magical Saftey diposit box . Perhaps if your Party could get their hands on the real Phylactery without her knowledge (Hard to do I'm Sure) , and Present that to her while the castle is falling around them , that would strike some terror into the Lich's empty void where her heart use to be.

Just a suggestion .

VirOath
2009-07-30, 12:52 PM
Just something to consider, something that isn't a cop-out. She has been making evil plans upon plans for how long? Working to seed discord for how long? What is her end goal?

But she literally has all the time in the world, so she can take her time to minimize risks AND have fun. With an Int like that, and ageless, boredom would be a huge factor.

So the adventurers start jamming the monkey wrench into her plans. But this is just a set back to her, something to finally shake things up and have some fun. She doesn't underestimate them forever, only at first, maybe even a bit impressed by them, but starts playing them like pawns, having them jump through hoops for her own amusement.

So she wouldn't Scry and Die them. She could, but where is the fun in that? Instead she works behind the scenes to place challenges at their door and make their lives a living hell, and watches it all on a wide screen scrying pool.

The final battle? Oh, she would have barrels of fun, making it as challenging and oppressive as possible, but still leave them that last shred of hope. It would push them to fight to their hardest, and the Lich just enjoyed herself.

In the end, lets say that the Party beats the BBEG, how do they stop the Lich from returning? In the end she would be guarded better than most gods, her one weakness forever sealed from the hands of mortals. The Party feels like they've done a great deed, saved the world and all that jazz, when to her it's not the end, just a set back. One that was worth it for the fun, but now back to work.


After all, when everything goes according to plan, it's just boring. Much better to be forced to think on your feet and wing it!

Admiral Squish
2009-07-30, 05:10 PM
It seems none of you are actually reading the spoilered details. A lot of the things you keep mentioning are addressed in there.

VirOath
2009-07-30, 06:41 PM
Honestly, I posted before reading it, at which point I just added a touch to it. But I missed the key point in all of that.

Her key to existence is tied into the damn thing to power it... Yeah, removes any reason for her not to go all out, and leaves her stupidly vulnerable. Might want to rethink that point.

Unless she likes the risk. But with this, play Dread Necro 8 and PrC into something else for it that prodives full casting progression. Straight Wizard 20 without pulling punches will wipe out a party not prepared to handle it, and Dread Necro has too many dead levels, the end bonus already being in effect for her.

This is double if you don't plan on removing Genesis from the game.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-30, 07:35 PM
Response spoilered



Sounds like you have the makings of a good campaign arc and final battle. It's like an advneture path module like Shackled City. So like those adventure paths, the events of the earlier sessions should not have an overall effect on the final battle. For example, if the PCs stop the theft at the Talenta Boneyards, this does not stop the construction of the flesh colossus. It gives the PCs plenty of adventures and they have to face Vol to stop a threat that their special skills can deal with. (Edit: Not that the adventures a long the way to the final battle don't have "real" and worthwhile objectives. For ex, if the PCs can prevent the theft of X but that should not prevent the building of the colossus.)

And since the fight is with Vol and her minions inside the flesh colossus, this can make for an epic battle as the PCs work their way from the inside up the colosssus. So for ex, at the first level they fight her lieutenants, at the second Vol and more lieutenants, and at the third, they can fight Vol again.

One thing you have to decide is whether stopping Vol means destroying her. For example, it seems that stopping the colossus could be accomplished by stopping whatever magical machinery makes it run.

The suggestion to let the party get aid from surrounding states or powers or to have them turn an ally away from her is a good one. However, your players may not take you up on this so don't railroad them into it. Also, if they do turn an ally, say the Lord of Blades, against Vol, don't let that be the deciding factor in the final fight. That is anti-climactic. If the players turn the BBEG's aly or lieutenat, that is a reward in itself. If that ally in turn defeats the BBEG and now there is no BBEG for them to fight, you have robbed them (and yourself) of the glorious final fight. Once and ally turns against Vol, that ally should get their comeuppance and that will be just as satisfying to the players. Besides, no 3600 year old lich would ever trust a lieutenant that much. She would never let an NPC beat her. A PC maybe. But not an NPC.

One option you could throw at the PCs is that one or more of them become undead themselves in order to fight Vol. This would be in keeping if for example the PCs get aid from Karnath.

As for the PCs and optimization, I think most will be fine. Someone else also posted that.

The psion and barbarians should be able to crank out a lot of damage. The warforged monk will probably end up with a lot of immunities, good saves and mobility and so should be effective. The dragon shaman should be OK but you do need more healing than it can provide especially in an epic battle. So you either need items, cohorts or NPCs. The drow scout will need help. Some kind of prestige class is called for.

The good thing is that since they are starting at level 10, you can start throwing them the stuff that they will face later, undead, warforged, etc. This way both you and the players can learn what the PCs can do as they level up. In fact there is nothing wrong with throwing them a preview fight, say an undead wizard with a warforged fighter and other minions of Vol and Lord of Blades.

Once the PCs get to the final battle, you can adjust Vol's power level accordingly but I think you will find that a 20th level lich will be a good and dangerous match for the party. (Edit: Don't play Vol as a batman wizard prepared for this particular party. You can still play her smart and dangerous and be giving the PCs a fair fight.) If you screen her with too many minions while she unloads on the PCs, then you will probably get a TPK. So in the final battle, let her fight, use expendable minions, retreat and then come back with even deadlier spells.

As for scrying and dying, that is something that might be introduced by you or the PCs. Once it is introduced, just make sure all sides take necessary precautions and then it should not overwhelm the campaign.

aje8
2009-07-30, 08:36 PM
Well..... it seems to be that you're party is REALLY unoptimized.... no offense. That's going to make things very difficult.

No ultility Arcane caster, no GOOD Big Stupid Fighter, no real divine caster, serveral just useless part members. Seeing as you don't want to ask your players to power up their builds, your main options are:

1. Alternate Goal. They awaken the entity/find the macgruffin/complete the ritual which defeats her. The problem with this of course that it ruins your uber-awesome battle with the BBEG in the flesh-thingy.

2. Similairly under power their opponent. Even if isn't befitting of an entitiy of her power level to be unoptimized. She'll still feel VERY epic if she brings the party to the brink of death. The loss of realism is however annoying.

3. Super-combat oriented item. They get something or rather that powes them up big time, it doesn't insta-kill the BBEG but it say, gives all her spells a 50% chance of failing or it removes all her contigencies and celerityies or something.

Admiral Squish
2009-07-31, 12:46 AM
Well, the barb can pump out some serious damage. Multiweapon version of two-weapon pounce and he puts out 4d10+4d6+Str.x2-1/2+PAx4 damage on pretty much every turn. The dragon shaman's healing aura is rather effective to keep the party at half-health and he's got 100 points of healing/day in his touch of vitality. The scout... I'm not sure what I can do about her. The psion's got some really powerful damage powers in a wide enough variety to make most foes vulnerable, and she has a few utility abilities.

Now, VirOath:
Please spoiler anything relating to the spoilered information. I know at least one of my players visits here, and I am really trying to keep the mystery going.

The reason her phylanctery is powering it is because that's how she's keeping it under her direct control. She has a few contingencies in place. An anti-life shell around her throne and it's real location, and a glaringly obvious decoy. The real one is merged with the wall behind her throne, where the obvious one is going to be part of a glowing, important-looking chandelier inside the skull.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-31, 01:07 AM
Well, the barb can pump out some serious damage. Multiweapon version of two-weapon pounce and he puts out 4d10+4d6+Str.x2-1/2+PAx4 damage on pretty much every turn. The dragon shaman's healing aura is rather effective to keep the party at half-health and he's got 100 points of healing/day in his touch of vitality. The scout... I'm not sure what I can do about her. The psion's got some really powerful damage powers in a wide enough variety to make most foes vulnerable, and she has a few utility abilities.

No half measures here! At least not if you want epic fights. Limits on healing only limit how many encounters the party can face in one day.

The scout needs to dip into ranger and undead hunter or some such. Also give him some spotlight with you actual scouting and trap finding.

Spoilered response:

The reason her phylanctery is powering it is because that's how she's keeping it under her direct control. She has a few contingencies in place. An anti-life shell around her throne and it's real location, and a glaringly obvious decoy. The real one is merged with the wall behind her throne, where the obvious one is going to be part of a glowing, important-looking chandelier inside the skull.
All good. Keep in mind the end of the phylactery does not necessarily mean the end of the lich. That all depends on whether you want there to be an encore...

One more thing is that the PCs may not defeat Vol in the colossus but runaway after defeating some of her lieutenants but before getting a TPK. There are several ways to handle that but you can cross that bridge when you ge to it.

VirOath
2009-07-31, 01:41 AM
Spoiler as requested.

Now, that's much more believable. Sorry if I was coming off as condescending at any point, but I was just seeing holes. So either it wasn't all of the information, or there was some flaws in Vol's thinking, or a big risk was being taken.

Now, you've got an awesome endgame set up, now to just make it feasible. We can ignore basic Tippy-verse tactics, as I'm sure we can come up with some reason as to why (Like certain spells don't exist, or doing so would attract attention from someone else.)

Also, I don't see why time is an element for her in this plan. Sure, setbacks would be bad, but the Lord of Blades is immortal as well. One thing that would be bugging me with a Lich is why now? Was there some window that opened? Is it her -allies-? Is something coming that would make it more dangerous to attempt later?

Then again, the Lord of Blades is a bit mad.

But the Anti-Life shell is one smarter means I've seen for protection. Means that it will be reasonably protected, and shouldn't have much of an issue so long as it doesn't get snuffed out.

But she doesn't have a reason to hold back, which means that you should decide how to play her. How she is going to fight, and design her from the ground up like that. Anti-life shell and flying would negate the barb, Windwall the scout, and that leave the Dragon Shaman and the Psion. With Wizard anyways.

Which was why I recommend Dread Necro. Taking past level 8 in that doesn't have much point, but picking something up from that would give her a power boost without making her untouchable. But undead + Dread Necro means that her negative energy bombs from the class are more dangerous...

Maybe build up some Spell Stitched undead disguised to look like her as well. Maybe have the inside of the Flesh Colossus able to attack, or be an inverted fortress (See Dwarf Fortress Defense Designs). Negative Energy rat bombs, incorporeal hit and runs, Disease Pits, Spawn, Negative Level Bone Spikes, collapsible walkways and tunnels, horde gates...

*Sighs* I can think of many ways of making this a thinking encounter rather than mechanics, but I don't know how to knock down the mechanics without it feeling like a cop-out.

I think it might be an idea for the players to find out who is behind it, but realize or get told they don't stand much of a chance as they are now, and be sent to find items to combat it. Some items from books, some custom items, heck, even a good reason to toss in some custom made Late-Legacy items. There was a thread on here about how to take down a Wizard 20 with a 4 member team. Might want to look it up, should give some insight.

I just see it as less of a way of toning her down to make it possible, but rather give the party the resources to make it possible with proper planning, and a bit of luck. Then tilt the odds back into her favor with tactics.


Aside from that, I wouldn't see the target being her. Weakening her position by knocking out some of the control over her legions, key members of her personal leadership structure, etc. Make it so that all she really has left to rely on is her, the FC and her allies. And point out to the Lord of Blades that now is the time to turn. If they can get him to turn when they desire, it can either be a strong distraction or a finishing blow, then all they have to do is take care of what is left. The problem with this is that it is half damning the world.