Test your Wizard

[Doc Roc]

:: big toothy grin ::

As a friend of mine insisted:

We don't bite.

[Kelpstrand]

{Scrubbed}

[AstralFire]

Yo. Kelp.

Chill.

If he's wrong, the numbers will show themselves soon enough. If he's not... the same.

[Doc Roc]

I knew I should have ranked up the threat on my shouts more.... Normally my passives are enough to get threat to drop overall...

[Mr.Moron]

Stealth-nerf? I discussed shapechange limitations several posts ago, long before updating the OP but I'll post them again;

Shapechange requires familiarity. Familiarity with a creature means having encountered it more than once. In order to encounter a creature more than once, it needs to be a non-unique encounter thus not a BBEG or other increased-CR encounter but a standard one. You cannot have encountered creatures of more than CR 20 in level 20 or before in standard encounters.

Hence you can't be familiar with them and hence you can't shapechange into them.

What about non-hostile creatures? Not every powerful being in the universe is going to be out splat everyone they run into. There are high-CR creatures with alignments other than "Always Evil". Seeking out an getting familiar with a particular individual outside of a hostile meeting isn't exactly out of the question.

Especially if you're high level, have magic, an even temperament and maybe something to offer in exchange. CR doesn't exactly matter if you aren't coming to blows.

[Doc Roc]

Hell, if you take contemplative, you've met an envoy of your deity. Chances are that's an outsider of some note.

[Kelpstrand]

Yo. Kelp.

Chill.

If he's wrong, the numbers will show themselves soon enough. If he's not... the same.

It's not about numbers. I'm just upset that he's spent like five posts attacking me because I told people not to trip monsters that can't be tripped.

[Doc Roc]

In situations like this, among my people, it is common to take it to a private channel and try to actively work through your disagreements in the most cathartic fashion. You both have a solid measure of my respect, and I would like, for my part, to be able to work comfortably with both of you.

[Talic]

{Scrubbed}

[Talic]

{Scrubbed}

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: This how: 1) threads get shut down over an entirely needless flamewar between two posters and 2) optimizers get a bad reputation as a needlessly hostile bunch. I hate to see either of those things happen. Maybe you fine folks could let it go now and this thread could get back to its civil, productive purpose?

[Talic]

I'll take this opportunity to bow out of this thread {Scrubbed} You all have fun with the challenge. I'll have no more of it.

[Adumbration]

On a slightly different note, I recall something about needing a skillmonkey for this test. I won't run it myself, but if someone wants, here's a Truenamer (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27160) for your contemplation. Feel free to use, if you like. He wears a shirt with the inscription of "I fought Doomsday, and all I got was this crappy T-shirt."

[waterpenguin43]

I'll work on a conjurer, AI'll tell you when he's done (SR is no issue.).
I love conjurers:smallbiggrin:.
Edit: Correction, conjurer STORMCASTER!!

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Chill, people. I'm gonna finish the encounters sometime today then you can test with the party and the rules you'd like; I'm willing to run ppl even out of the challenge parameters just to see what will happen.

As for Shapechange, if you don't agree to the limitation by CR, no problem. Just don't expect enemies to follow it either.

[Kelpstrand]

As for Shapechange, if you don't agree to the limitation by CR, no problem. Just don't expect enemies to follow it either.

You are still lying.

I never complained about the CR limitation, I didn't even complain about the book limitation.

What I did complain about was the fact that when I explicitly asked if books were more limited for shapechange forms than for the other aspects of characters, you said the only limitation for shapechange was CR. That is a lie, because you also added a book limitation without telling anyone.

So instead of avoiding my question by talking about the CR limitation, how about you answer my actual question:

"Can I use shapechange (and wildshape) forms from the list of available player resources, which included but is not limited to Hordes of the Abyss, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Stormwrack, and MM II-V?"

[Belial_the_Leveler]

My original reply was;


2) Shapechange is limited by sources (obviously) and familiarity to the creature in question according to the spell's wording. So as to not make an arbitrary ruling on things (some people don't like that) take a look at the existing table for target knowledge included in the scrying spell; a "familiar" creature is one you know well. Having heard of it or having met it once is not enough.
For the sake of simplicity, let's say that includes all creatures that you could have encountered more than once-that is, all creatures that could be in standard and easy encounters for your level or lower. (CR 20 or less). That is obviously many more creatures than you could be familiar with but I don't want to get into a discussion of which character is familiar with what.

So, ALL CREATURES you could be familiar with in the available sources was my answer.
What created this argument was my mistake; the update in the OP did not follow my answer to your question above. I simply did not double-check and assumed the mistake was on your part rather than mine.


I'll fix the OP to reflect the original answer given. And yes, you can use creatures from all the available books-sorry for being an @$$ before. :smalleek:

[Kelpstrand]

I'll fix the OP to reflect the original answer given. And yes, you can use creatures from all the available books-sorry for being an @$$ before. :smalleek:

Sorry for being an @ss back. I was just very disturbed by the fact that you were avoiding mentioning that restriction, but yes, people often avoid mentioning restrictions they don't actually intend to have.

[dougch]

i see no reason why a level 19 could not encounter a cr 24 monster or outsider or some such

as thus i say the max cr or hd be raised to 24 hd casue like
19+5 is 24

a pair of monsetrs coudl reach cr 24 with ease makes sense that they coudl be 22-23 crs

my 2 koboldians

[sofawall]

So, you say 19+5 because ECL+5 is an overwhelming challenge, but one they could still have met?

I just want to understand here.

EDIT: And meeting it isn't all ,you also have to be badass enough to turn into it. that's where the CR thing came in. Not for limits to familiarity, but for awesome.

[dougch]

+5 is badass endquest challenge

makes sense to me

[Kelpstrand]

So, you say 19+5 because ECL+5 is an overwhelming challenge, but one they could still have met?

I just want to understand here.

EDIT: And meeting it isn't all ,you also have to be badass enough to turn into it. that's where the CR thing came in. Not for limits to familiarity, but for awesome.

Actually, no on both accounts. (Just realized this sounded dickish, I mean both the person I am quoting main point about CR=badass, and the point he is addressing about CR 24s being familiar.)

The Cr ruling has nothing to do with badass, that's measured by HD vs CL, the CR is a ruling made by Belial to represent familiarity. And Familiarity only.

The point being that fighting or seeing in the distance once is not enough to be familiar, and that's cool.

Now, hypothetically as level 24 characters, we could have run into an beaten the occasional CR 24 monster, but probably not the same type multiple times, and thus not familiar with it.

While I'd argue that anything you killed you'd be pretty familiar with, I have no problems with the CR ruling as an abstraction of the varied knowledge characters might have.

I also think it's a little silly to say that for example, a good Cleric wouldn't be familiar with Solars, because you are pretty much going to familiar with things that don't hate you pretty easily, but again, CR 20 abstraction for what you've met is fine, and works well enough for the purposes, since being able to shapechange into a CR 21-24 monster with less than 25 HD probably isn't going to be the breaking point which determines whether or not we beat the challenge.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Actually, it may be. Zodar; immune to weapons, immune to magic, supernatural wish ability. :smalleek:

[waterpenguin43]

Sorry, I have to drop out.

[dougch]

its a silly thing anyway, and caused the fate of to many great men ide just close it now before the combined wambulancing implodes the servers

[Doc Roc]

I..... Think I'm amused, but could you clear up those typos?

[dougch]

its a silly thing anyway. It has caused the fate of too many great men. I would just close it now before the combined wambulancing implodes the servers.


there senior grammar nazi

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.