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Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-30, 04:35 AM
A great many wizard builds are promoted as unbeatable or at least as broken as anything else. But most people don't take into account what would work in a campaign and most such attempts are theoretical optimisation-at best.

If you really want to test wether your wizard is truly unbeatable and broken, you must make sure of the following;

1) He is more effective than other party members in the encounters the DM cooks up.
2) He doesn't die.
3) He completes goals 1 and 2 with a positive balance of resources (i.e. he doesn't spend more XP, GP and other resources to win the encounter than he would gain from winning)
4) He can keep up with the party. If, for example, he needs several weeks to set up various defences, the other members of the party would be finished with the campaign already. Or if he needs to rest several times per day, the other guys would have dealt with the encounters themselves already.

These are your goals. There are also some limitations that usually apply to most games;
a) Characters are not allowed to create more resources (such as treasure and XP) from nothing; the DM usually awards those and has control of them so you can't get more of those than you're entitled to according to WBL and XP tables.
b) The DM usually controls what sources are allowed in his game. Because the extent of control varies and most games are on varying settings, you should consider an average limitation; no campaign-specific material, no dragon magazine, only WotC books.
c) Character knowledge is not player knowledge. You need to make appropriate skill checks if you want to know about creatures, spells and items.
d) The DM controls the encounters and builds your enemies. It is possible that a DM can (and probably will) use encounters that negate easy win buttons and actually have you work for your kills.



Keeping the above in mind, can you make sufficient preparations to make a wizard immortal, resource-efficient and combat-effective? Follow these steps;
1) Make an standard-race, 32 point-buy, average HP 20th level character. Base class should be wizard.
1a) Standard race means one of the normal player races OR a race that is about as strong as they are.
2) Make a list of all your preparations, detailing cost and time. You have exactly 1 in-character week for all preparations.
3) Base cosmology.
4) No variant rules except flaws.
4a) Available rules are limited to WotC printed books, non-campaign only.
5) Monsters currently available to the campaign world are limited to SRD, draconomicon, libris mortis, lords of madness, tyrants of the 9 hells. You still need to make knowledge checks to know about a monster.
5a) The above is also a limitation for summoning, calling and the like.
5b) For things that require creature familiarity but not a creature to currently exist in the game world (such as shapechange or MomF), any creatures you might have met in standard encounters (i.e. CR 20 or less) and within the full sources is available.
6) No custom items, candle of invocation is banned.
6a) You can still add non-custom abilities to an item either through the SRD +50% cost rule or through the MIC rules. (i.e. a monk's belt of strength is allowed)

After you complete that, I'll be finding ways to kill your character, make them inefficient or ineffective in combat or render your preparations irrelevant or useless. Let's see how well you can build your wizard.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 05:25 AM
Permission to use a Sorcerer, as I just finished making a gimped wizard for Gaiyamato.

Here is Seto (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27364), a core only sorcerer, who designs fortresses with his Lyre of Building (+14 perform check) and lives in them.

Preparations: An underground dungeon with stratigically placed load bearing columns in certain rooms, which can be collapsed to trap people, and filled with traps created by the finest kobold trapsmiths, and though use of Explosive Runes.

Also, quite a few buffs. I don't think he's invincible, but I think he'd do fairly well for himself.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-30, 12:19 PM
Your sorceror isn't exceptionally powerful, even as fas as core sorcerers go. You don't have any powerful attack spells that could destroy any serious opposition. You also don't have any attacks at all that ignore SR.

Against dragons and most outsiders that are even a little optimised you have trouble harming them.
Against constructs and swarms more so.
Against golems, very high SR enemies and other magic-immune foes you can only use Grease.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 12:25 PM
Your sorceror isn't exceptionally powerful, even as fas as core sorcerers go. You don't have any powerful attack spells that could destroy any serious opposition. You also don't have any attacks at all that ignore SR.

Against dragons and most outsiders that are even a little optimised you have trouble harming them.
Against constructs and swarms more so.
Against golems, very high SR enemies and other magic-immune foes you can only use Grease.

He does have Greater Shadow Evocation, but that's worse than the fireball it mimics. He could just throw Explosive Runes at everything, then use a low level wand of dispel to fudge his CL checks.

Alternatively, being a high cha caster and all, he should simply bind outsiders to fight for him.

Frosty
2009-07-30, 12:26 PM
Dragons don't have particularly high SR, but outsiders might laugh yes.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-30, 12:30 PM
The draconomicon-enhanced Wyrm Black dragon with its 45 SR is ROTFLHAO at your comment.

Arakune
2009-07-30, 12:33 PM
ops. draconomicon.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 12:35 PM
And it's not core only, or SRD only this thread is about. If everything is allowed, then it's even better for the sorcerer.

Check the OP.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 12:35 PM
Your sorceror isn't exceptionally powerful, even as fas as core sorcerers go. You don't have any powerful attack spells that could destroy any serious opposition. You also don't have any attacks at all that ignore SR.

Against dragons and most outsiders that are even a little optimised you have trouble harming them.
Against constructs and swarms more so.
Against golems, very high SR enemies and other magic-immune foes you can only use Grease.

He's got Disintegrate, Prismatic Sphere and Enerverate, you can go pretty far with those. For such situations as they don't cover he's got Limited Wish. Plus the four requirements you specified don't include 'must be able to kill everything on your own', this is clearly a team player with survival higher on the list than offensive power.

The only one he might fall down on is point 1 - More effective than other party members and that's something that will vary dependant on the style of the DM, against these he'll be weaker than some (putting him about on par with Tier 3 in my opinion) but against most he'll do fine (and by fine I mean outshine the noncasters).

- Against SR monsters he's got moment of prescience and a very healthy penetration check that'll get through most things in Core by itself.
- Against constructs and swarms he's got Resilient Sphere, flight and grease still works just fine.

tyckspoon
2009-07-30, 12:47 PM
no campaign-specific material


I always wonder a little bit about the scope of this one when people say it. Do you mean nothing that actually is campaign-specific (for example, no Sarrukhs because those are part of the creation mythology of many Faerun races, nothing from Eberron that uses Dragonmarks or action points) or does it mean a blanket ban on anything that just happened to be printed in a book that says 'Eberron' or 'Forgotten Realms'? The latter terms would notably remove Incantatrix from the options.

Myrmex
2009-07-30, 01:10 PM
I definitely want to try this. Will have a character up by the weekend.

The Glyphstone
2009-07-30, 01:16 PM
Will this really prove anything beyond the (admitted) fact that encounters specifically designed and optimized to gimp/cripple the wizard relative to his party members will, unsurprisingly, gimp/cripple the wizard?

Ernir
2009-07-30, 01:21 PM
How much experience does our Wizard have? You said level 20, but does that mean that he has the precise experience total needed to attain that level, so crafting a single item (or contingent spell) would bring him down to 19?

EDIT: Will you be testing our ability to stand up in a fight that actually reaches us, or total survivability from harm?

Because if the latter, we need to include descriptions of how we are Astral Projecting ourselves. :smalltongue:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 01:44 PM
Your sorceror isn't exceptionally powerful, even as fas as core sorcerers go. You don't have any powerful attack spells that could destroy any serious opposition. You also don't have any attacks at all that ignore SR.
Acid Arrow and Solid Fog do iirc, though I admit it's not a whole lot of damage.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 02:01 PM
Fine, beat one of my wizards\casters in the ToS, level 20, Belial.

I'm not clear on what sources I'm allowed. :|

How much do you get to know about my preparations? Are you going to use monsters with non-associated class levels?
Will you be homebrewing? Will they follow the EWL table? I need to know a LOT more about your rules as well as my rules. I'm not satisfied by this, remotely.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 02:09 PM
A DM can always a kill a character is he/she really wants to. This fact is obvious, and I'm not sure what is trying to be proved here. That it can't be done using only CR appropriate monsters?

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 02:16 PM
I believe Belial just wants to be right. I'm sorry, but I'll meet you in the halls of honor with a character of your choosing and a character of mine. I won't fight brokenly under-cr'd monsters in a situation virtually designed to bone me.

Wizards aren't unkillable. It's just that to kill them, you probably need to force a TPK or go to extraordinary levels. What I mean is that while I might need an epic level set of non casters to provide a challenge for an ECL 20 group of characters, a well designed ECL 20 wizard with one instance of leadership or one minion can challenge that same group, may in fact boil down to the boss of an entire plot arch. You tell me that's balanced. Please.


What am I allowed to get with planar binding? Elementals of various flavors okay?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 02:46 PM
So let's see... the CR for a solo encounter is CR 21, right?

Or are you going to begin by throwing something that's CR 25 at us and then claiming a victory for your side?

Frosty
2009-07-30, 03:06 PM
There really should be question that intelligently played full casters of the srot not limited to a few schools like Warmages do would vastly outstrip other characters. Of course you can kill a smart Wizard. What whatever can kill it will also kill everything else in your party.

Whereas what kills the party's Rogue might only cause arrogant laughter from the Wizard.

Talic
2009-07-30, 03:15 PM
ACF's are fine, correct? If so, I can cook up a thing or three.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 03:38 PM
Are you allowing leadership? Circle Magic?

What about early entry shenangians, such as improved sigil krau or precocious apprentice?

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 03:43 PM
What about my least favorite spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) in the game?

Hey there, eschew materials! What's that, violets are worthless?
Alternatively: Dweomerkeeper + Teleport Through Time == hilarious.


The Time Tram Approaches!

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 03:48 PM
What about my least favorite spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) in the game?

Hey there, eschew materials! What's that, violets are worthless?
Alternatively: Dweomerkeeper + Construct gardeners == hilarious.

Dont forget to make yourself immune to int damage before you do it.

Combine this with choose destiny to increase accuracy, and arcane spellsurge to cast it as a swift action.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 03:57 PM
Is dust of sneezing and choking banned?

Is there some good reason you aren't using the ToS fix set?

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 04:08 PM
Do you mind if I use knuth's up arrow notation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation) to record the number of mindraped solars I have?

Edit: Actually, since I have only a week, dominate monster is just as good. No mindrape.

Edit 2: And thats 1 week as percieved on the prime material right?

Signmaker
2009-07-30, 04:13 PM
You picked up on that too? What's stopping the caster from making their own demiplane with a faster time stream?

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 04:16 PM
You picked up on that too? What's stopping the caster from making their own demiplane with a faster time stream?

The same gentlemens agreement that prevents mindraping more solars than there are peasents in the game setting.:smallamused:

Skorj
2009-07-30, 04:17 PM
Do you mind if I use knuth's up arrow notation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation) to record the number of mindraped solars I have?

Edit: Actually, since I have only a week, dominate monster is just as good. No mindrape.

Edit 2: And thats 1 week as percieved on the prime material right?

Not my call, but I'd rule that since you're not Epic, another caster who is has already bound all the Solars (since there's a finite number) to help with some spellcraft DC that can't be adequately expressed as in integer. Gotta give precedence to the epic caster there. :smallwink:

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 04:22 PM
While that's hilarious, and reasonable, time travel means there's plenty of solars for all of us. Pit Fiends are pretty good too.
I see no reason not to chain the great wheel. An end to conflict, to pain, to the blood war. A ultimate terminus to the machinations of heaven and hell, a final though perhaps quotidian remark upon the frailty of the system.

The Age Of Powers is over and the stars are right.
Pun-Pun Rises in the West.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 04:23 PM
Ok, optimization time people:

We want an exponential number of solars.

Now each solar you gate in can gate in more solars.

However, you can only dominate them at a linear rate, because solars cant cast dominate person.


So we are summoning balors instead. However, since they can only summon 1 other balor, we are stuck with linear growth.

Its still going to be an impressive number of balors, but I want exponential dammit!

We need a monter than can summon more of its kind, at least twice per day, and can dominate monster, also at least twice per day.

Elder Titans would work, but their HD are beyond the limit I can get for gate.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 04:24 PM
Not my call, but I'd rule that since you're not Epic, another caster who is has already bound all the Solars (since there's a finite number) to help with some spellcraft DC that can't be adequately expressed as in integer. Gotta give precedence to the epic caster there. :smallwink:

The celestial heavens are infinite. That means infinite solars. There are more than enough for everyone!

Failing that, you can at least gaterape a linear number of balors, which are also infinite.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 04:27 PM
Timmmmmmmeeeeeeeee manipulation! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36GauCQVd4I)

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 04:36 PM
Ok, I have my exponential gaterape :)

EleventhHour
2009-07-30, 04:36 PM
...Punpun? :smallconfused:

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 04:41 PM
Are you implying a knowledge or lack of knowledge of pun-pun?

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 04:42 PM
I think she's expressing consternation at how much like walking gods you are.

Y'all scare me.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 04:46 PM
Look, I don't pull out my kung-fu very often. I'm a nice guy, by most accounts. I play by most of the existing gentleman's agreements. I don't mind railroads or silly plots, or starting games in taverns. I do mind someone insisting that the whole CO community is clearly idiots. A lot of these people, I'm good friends with, I respect deeply, and I've spent serious time on this issue with them. It's not some imaginary problem. It really is an issue within the game.

That's not to say that a wizard is wholly unkillable.
It's just to say that he's a pretty freaking rough target to go after, probably the roughest thing to go chasing after in the PhB short of deities. It doesn't get a lot stupider than this particular endeavor. We found some ways to make him sit down, shut up, and die. But only with a number of Agreements in place, some rules, and the assumption of a truly sensible GM. I guess what upsets me is that there's this mentality that everything is fixed and beautiful if I can provide just one good counter-example. We're not dealing with predicate logic here!

Olo Demonsbane
2009-07-30, 04:57 PM
I might throw out a character, if this is still running when I get back from vacation.

May I suggest eliminating gate?

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 05:05 PM
Look, I don't pull out my kung-fu very often. I'm a nice guy, by most accounts. I play by most of the existing gentleman's agreements.

Yeah. I hate playing wizards in real games, its usually far too much work to keep track of my spellbook, and spell durations and all that. ToB and psions and incarnum classes are much more fun to play. Even sorcs are more fun due to the lack of spellbook.

But the point of this is to show that a properly built wizard is more powerful than any other class. And im not even going to pull out bizzare prcs from dragon and whatever. Its really just going to be a choice between an actually strong wizard, and a wizard who once a day can toss out DC 70+ save or dies, or autokill anything with less than 30 or 40hd.

And eliminate gate or not, Im still getting at least linear growth with CR >20 creatures.

I run a level 14 arena on rpol, and I dont even pull out this level of stuff there, because its a friendly arena, not a public challenge.

Skorj
2009-07-30, 05:08 PM
The celestial heavens are infinite. That means infinite solars. There are more than enough for everyone!

Failing that, you can at least gaterape a linear number of balors, which are also infinite.

Wait, what? I thought the abyss was infinite, but the heavens not, which was why keeping the evil outsiders fighting one another was so important.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 05:09 PM
Look, I don't pull out my kung-fu very often. I'm a nice guy, by most accounts.

You are. That was a complimentary 'y'all are scarin' me'. :smallamused: I can pull together some connections, but I don't have the mind for this that you all do, and I'm always impressed by these topics even if I don't follow them perfectly. I also consider watching them to be highly instructive of things I should avoid with my homebrew, both in D&D and more generally.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 05:15 PM
Wait, what? I thought the abyss was infinite, but the heavens not, which was why keeping the evil outsiders fighting one another was so important.

Manual of the Planes says that all the outer planes are infinite.

However, there are a countably infinite number of angels. You could line them all up and count them.

Demons (or devils, whichever one has the abyss) are not countable infinite. There are an infinite number on an infinite number of planes.

Its like trying to compare the number of points on a number line to the number of points in a square.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 05:22 PM
Demons is what you are thinking of. In theory, Devils are quantity limited. In practice, not so much.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 05:27 PM
Banning campaign-specific books was a very smart thing; it prevents me from handing you a Wizard/Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder capable of dropping and Ancient Force Dragon in one round. I'm serious about that, by the way; someone in a game I'm in (playing, not DMing) did that.

I will take you up on this challenge.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 05:29 PM
Banning campaign-specific books was a very smart thing; it prevents me from handing you a Wizard/Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder capable of dropping and Ancient Force Dragon in one round. I'm serious about that, by the way; someone in a game I'm in (playing, not DMing) did that.

I will take you up on this challenge.

He hasnt clarified that yet. He said campaign specific material. Incantrix is in a faerun book, but isnt faerun specific. Red Wizard of Thay, or dragonmarked heir are campaign specific.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 05:44 PM
Looks like you have about fifteen contestants, Belial. Have fun.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-30, 06:15 PM
Elder Titans would work, but their HD are beyond the limit I can get for gate.

So use a bound Genie to wish up a scroll at a high enough caster level.

Deliverance
2009-07-30, 06:30 PM
The celestial heavens are infinite. That means infinite solars. There are more than enough for everyone!

That does not follow - you need extra assumptions.

For instance, the assumption that "any celestial heaven contains at least one Solar" will do to give you (at least) aleph0 Solars, but merely stating an infinity of celestial heavens (whatever the cardinality) does not preclude that there could be only a finite number of them containing Solars. No doubt you know this, but you deserve some sort of silly comment when making such sweeping conclusions. :)

EDIT: Edited for cardinality.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 06:32 PM
That does not follow - you need extra assumptions.

For instance, the assumption that "each celestial heaven contains at least one Solar" will do, but merely stating an infinity of celestial heavens does not preclude that there could be only a finite number of them containing solars.

The random encounter charts indicate that there is a finite solar density, which when you integrate that across the plane diverges.

Also, each solar can call another solar via gate, so there is at least a countably infinite number.

Doc Roc
2009-07-30, 06:40 PM
Cookies for both of you!
:)

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-30, 06:42 PM
The two source limitations (no campaign-specific material and book-only material) mean that if material does not appear in a non-campaign printed book, you can't use it. Errata that fix books still apply because they don't add new material, only fix existing stuff.

The purpose for this test is manyfold;

1) Find ways to challenge the wizard without killing the rest of the party.
2) Make sure that a challenge is not unfair; if it optimised against casters, it has about as much resources invested in optimising against noncasters-at least on average over several encounters.
3) The goal is not to kill the wizard-that is just a last resort. The goal is to make the wizard non-overpowered in his acheivements compared to the rest of the party.


How I am going to run this test:

1) Before I see any characters, I'll have prepared a series of 13 encounters as per the DMG guidelines. Some of them will be less than CR 20, some of them will be more than CR 20, some of them will be exactly CR 20 and one of them will be CR 25. That is fully according to DMG guidelines.
2) I will be seeing the characters and the preparations you make just like every DM in any normal game does. But that is only after the series of encounters will be complete and sent over to non-participants.
3) The series of encounters will have an overall goal with a time limit, a reason for having roughly 4 encounters per day.
4) The wizard can use divination to prepare in advance for encounters. The enemies can do so as well. While the encounters themselves and the character won't change, tactics and preparations might.


On encounters and challenges;

1) No homebrew creatures will be used.
2) Encounter treasure is as per normal though some creatures might have more or less treasure, as appropriate (e.g. a creature might have no items while another might have triple standard or NPC treasure)
3) Creatures of lower CR might be advanced/improved using the standard CR guidelines in the SRD with one limitation; existing creatures will be used as a benchmark for creature power level. E.g. a CR 20 gish creature should be comparable to the black dragon Wurm (34 HD, 13th lvl casting), no more. A CR 20 meleer will be comparable to the tarrasque while a CR 20 caster will be somewhere between the Solar and the Planetar or about as strong as the Black Ethergaunt.
4) Expect creatures to be optimised, using good feats, items and sometimes classes.

Skorj
2009-07-30, 06:49 PM
Demons (or devils, whichever one has the abyss) are not countable infinite. There are an infinite number on an infinite number of planes.

Its like trying to compare the number of points on a number line to the number of points in a square.

Technically, the number of points in a line and the number of points in a plane are the same, but I get your meaning.


The random encounter charts indicate that there is a finite solar density, which when you integrate that across the plane diverges.

Also, each solar can call another solar via gate, so there is at least a countably infinite number.

Ahh, but any savvy DM rules that the second Solar just gates the first one in. :smallbiggrin: They're buddies, after all. (IMO the rules don't specify whether the gating-graph can have cycles, so that's no proof of an infinity of Solars).

Also the random encounter charts are witten for encounters by PCs, of which there are a finite number who can therefore explore only a finite count of planes, so a finite number of Solars could satisfy all possible encounter rolls.

Deliverance
2009-07-30, 06:53 PM
Also, each solar can call another solar via gate, so there is at least a countably infinite number.
See, this is where I'm hopelessly lost without a sourcebook. :)

Does the "a Solar can call another solar" specify the location of the Solar called to be in the heavens (or more generally, to be definitely somewhere else nowhere near the calling Solar) or contain other provisions to make it a Solar that's guaranteed not to be one already in your collection? It only takes two to set up a Solar Summoning Ping Pong otherwise.

...And, of course, if one were a pedant one could argue that the ability to summon something of a specific category does not imply the existence of instances of the specific category whenever the ability is used, but that would be no fun when trying to create infinite loops, so forget I even mentioned it.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-30, 06:59 PM
Shooting down ridiculous stuff:

1) Chain-gating can be attempted. It should only be attempted if you're feeling lucky when trying to enslave an infinite number of CR 20+, genius-intellect enemies with access to lots of magic. The definition of "lucky" and the definition of "wise" are not identical.
2) You can gate djin. Unless you know the Name of a noble djin that can grant wishes, there is only 1% that what you gate will actually be able to grant a wish. Using up 100 gates to get 1 wish is not cost-effective.
3) You may Astral Project. From the Material Plane only according to the spell's description.
4) Genesis needs a week to cast. Random encounters for the Ethereal Plane may happen more often than a week. One is enough to disrupt the casting.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 07:17 PM
Shooting down ridiculous stuff:

1) Chain-gating can be attempted. It should only be attempted if you're feeling lucky when trying to enslave an infinite number of CR 20+, genius-intellect enemies with access to lots of magic. The definition of "lucky" and the definition of "wise" are not identical.
2) You can gate djin. Unless you know the Name of a noble djin that can grant wishes, there is only 1% that what you gate will actually be able to grant a wish. Using up 100 gates to get 1 wish is not cost-effective.
3) You may Astral Project. From the Material Plane only according to the spell's description.
4) Genesis needs a week to cast. Random encounters for the Ethereal Plane may happen more often than a week. One is enough to disrupt the casting.

1) The creatures I will be gating do not have genius level intellect. Well, they have more than a normal human, but less than your average wizard. Most of them anyway

2) There are rules in Tome of Magic for researching the name of a creature. Also, to be 95% confident that you will get at least 1 noble dijin you need at least 299 gates.

3) Whatever. I was not going to astrally project.

4) That why I will be doing my casting while under the effects of superior invisibility and nondetection, cast by my cohort. Or stacked contingent spells that activate each day. Or I can use alacritous cogition to cast genesis as a standard action



Questions:
What are the rules on early entry shenanagins, and can we get a list of allowed books?

EleventhHour
2009-07-30, 08:30 PM
Are you implying a knowledge or lack of knowledge of pun-pun?

Both what the person below anwsered and just plain old using Punpun TM, for this. It doesn't matter what the encounter is if you have infinite stats, and Divine abilities. (Though I admit I'm not sure if any of Punpun's abilites are nonWoTC)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-30, 08:52 PM
2) You can gate djin. Unless you know the Name of a noble djin that can grant wishes, there is only 1% that what you gate will actually be able to grant a wish. Using up 100 gates to get 1 wish is not cost-effective.

Why would you bother with djinn and gate when you can get 3 wishes by planar binding a single efreeti?

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:12 PM
Why would you bother with djinn and gate when you can get 3 wishes by planar binding a single efreeti?

I am unschooled in the ways of genie abuse. I bow to your superior knowledge.

And dont say the efreeti twists the wish. Thats what dominate monster is for.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 10:24 PM
The two source limitations (no campaign-specific material and book-only material) mean that if material does not appear in a non-campaign printed book, you can't use it. Errata that fix books still apply because they don't add new material, only fix existing stuff.
I see.

Then I can propose a different build.

woodenbandman
2009-07-30, 10:35 PM
I personally would go for a gish. Having a backup ability to suddenly turn into a fighter is nice, and you only lose 1 caster level (if Neraphs are allowed it's 0).

averagejoe
2009-07-30, 10:38 PM
Demons (or devils, whichever one has the abyss) are not countable infinite. There are an infinite number on an infinite number of planes.

That doesn't make them uncountable. For example, there are infinite rational numbers between every two integers, and the rational numbers are countable.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 10:46 PM
That doesn't make them uncountable. For example, there are infinite rational numbers between every two integers, and the rational numbers are countable.

You can put the number of layers of the abyss into a 1 to 1 correspondance with the integers. So the number of layers of the abyss has cardinality A_0

You can put the number of devils on each plane also into a 1 to 1 correspondance with the integers. So the number of devils on each layer has cardinality A_0

Is A_0*A_0=A_0

I dont have more than an elementary understanding of transfinite math.

averagejoe
2009-07-30, 11:05 PM
I dont have more than an elementary understanding of transfinite math.

Neither do I, but I seem to have found a valid counterexample to your argument. One can biject the integers with themselves, and one can form a bijection between the integers and any set {r|a<r<a+1, where a is an integer and r is a rational number}, so this seems to be essentially an identical situation.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 11:07 PM
So there are equal numbers of demons, devils and solars.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-30, 11:46 PM
In that Infinity = Infinity = Infinity...

averagejoe
2009-07-31, 12:31 AM
In that Infinity = Infinity = Infinity...

You'd think so, right. Infinity is a tricky bastard, though, and I've never really seen anyone working off of intuition be remotely right about it.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 12:35 AM
l'Hôpital would like to talk to you about that, except he really... well, go check the history of "l'Hôpital"'s rule.

HamsterOfTheGod
2009-07-31, 12:37 AM
So there are equal numbers of demons, devils and solars.

Clearly there are far more demons than devils or solars because demons are irrational...

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 12:39 AM
In that Infinity = Infinity = Infinity...

Ah, but there are different kinds of infinity.

For instance, there are equal numbers of integers and natural numbers, but there are more real numbers than either.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-31, 12:39 AM
Clearly there are far more demons than devils or solars because demons are irrational...

May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your nether regions.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 12:40 AM
Clearly there are far more demons than devils or solars because demons are irrational...

That depends on the data-type you're using... :)

PId6
2009-07-31, 12:44 AM
I would just like to point out that while Astral Projection can be interpreted to say you have to do it from the Material Plane, there's nothing stopping you from doing it in the Material and then sending your body to your demiplane. Just saying.

Also, I know exactly what the CR 25 is and there's no way in the abyss you'd get me to fight that thing. I don't think the wizard can beat it, much less anyone else, unless you're chain-gating something or the other.

averagejoe
2009-07-31, 12:50 AM
Clearly there are far more demons than devils or solars because demons are irrational...

:smallbiggrin:

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 01:04 AM
I would just like to point out that while Astral Projection can be interpreted to say you have to do it from the Material Plane, there's nothing stopping you from doing it in the Material and then sending your body to your demiplane. Just saying.

Also, I know exactly what the CR 25 is and there's no way in the abyss you'd get me to fight that thing. I don't think the wizard can beat it, much less anyone else, unless you're chain-gating something or the other.

CR 25 is an appropriate end-campaign encounter for a level 20 party.

PId6
2009-07-31, 01:11 AM
CR 25 is an appropriate end-campaign encounter for a level 20 party.
Ah, but the CR system is extremely flexible, as Belial undoubtedly knows.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 01:13 AM
Optimized CR 25 is not appropriate for a single ECL 20 character.




Belial, I'm calling in my cred with everyone here.
If you run Doomsday against a wizard, I'm challenging you to ToS.
Because you will have egregiously over-stepped the bounds of a rational attempt at proving anything here.

@Pid6:

Kill -9 that terrible lie. The CR system is hideously brittle, a monstrous mistake iterated over and over.

Frosty
2009-07-31, 01:17 AM
I dunno what a Doomsday is, but it sounds terrifying :smalltongue:

Kelpstrand
2009-07-31, 01:26 AM
I dunno what a Doomsday is, but it sounds terrifying :smalltongue:

Well it's apparently called "Doomsday" so off the top of my head, it's not made of Sunshine and Lollipops. Unless those are some mean Lollipops.

Lamech
2009-07-31, 01:30 AM
@Pid6:

Kill -9 that terrible lie. The CR system is hideously brittle, a monstrous mistake iterated over and over.

I thought he meant flexible in terms of power levels for a certain CR? For example: Commoner 18 = Fighter 17 = Wizard 17 = Shadow 21 HD Wizard 21 = Shadow 21 HD Wizard 5 archivist 1 Tainted Scholar 1 Dweamerkeeper 7 IotSFV 7

Also, Mr. Leveler that last one there should obliterate any wizard and still be "easy"

PId6
2009-07-31, 01:33 AM
Yeah, flexible as in wizard spells are flexible.

Milskidasith
2009-07-31, 01:34 AM
I know you guys can't reproduce Doomsday's entire entry here because of copyright, but could you give me a general rundown? What's broken about it?

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 01:50 AM
An easy way to circumvent Gate abuse- only willing creatures answer your call.


Look, I don't pull out my kung-fu very often. I'm a nice guy, by most accounts. I play by most of the existing gentleman's agreements. I don't mind railroads or silly plots, or starting games in taverns. I do mind someone insisting that the whole CO community is clearly idiots. A lot of these people, I'm good friends with, I respect deeply, and I've spent serious time on this issue with them. It's not some imaginary problem. It really is an issue within the game.

That's not to say that a wizard is wholly unkillable.
It's just to say that he's a pretty freaking rough target to go after, probably the roughest thing to go chasing after in the PhB short of deities. It doesn't get a lot stupider than this particular endeavor. We found some ways to make him sit down, shut up, and die. But only with a number of Agreements in place, some rules, and the assumption of a truly sensible GM. I guess what upsets me is that there's this mentality that everything is fixed and beautiful if I can provide just one good counter-example. We're not dealing with predicate logic here!

Don't take this as an offense, but I think you are taking this way too personally. Belial seems to just be curious.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 02:12 AM
The issue is that he's done this and a few similar things recently, and there've been a bunch of threads about this which really over-lap, and all of which re-tread really well-explored territory. I come here for fun and new ideas.

However, most of that was due to a misunderstanding of astral fire's post which immediate preceded mine. I thought AF meant that I was being a bad little D&D-sifu.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-31, 02:34 AM
The encounters are obviously not going to be run against a single wizard here. There will be a cleric, a gish and a fighter run by a third party (or by me, if nobody is interested) along with the wizard. There really is no other way to benchmark the wizard's effectiveness except along with some companions.

As amusing as it would be to see people punched halfway through mountains or to the other side of a miles-wide area, Doomsday is not entirely non-homebrew (it has dropped SLAs in favor of some melee abilities) and thus will not be run here. Besides, 2000 hp, +90 attack, regenerating immortal horrors are not appropriate for this test. You did notice the mention of non-advanced creatures being used as a benchmark for what advanced creatures might be used, right?

Do note however that horribly broken stuff, while not used to kill you or even prevent legitimate attacks on your part, will certainly be used to counter exploits.
For example;

Efreet or Noble Djin with an item of Summon Monster will grant wishes to their summoned pets while ordering them to use those wishes for their benefit. Said Efreet or Noble Djin will use those wishes to make sure their Wishes cannot be exploited by anyone and to create more free Summon Monster items for other Efreet or Noble Djin. So when you're attempting to bind Efreet or Noble Djin for Wishes? You still get the creature you're supposed to get but not the Wish exploit.

In short, don't bother with blatant exploits like chain-gating, mindraping legions of monsters and the like that would never fly in a normal game. While not technically disallowed here, they will be otherwise countered.

Aharon
2009-07-31, 04:38 AM
@Quick Comment
Per the errata, you can't use alacritous cogitation on Genesis, the errata limited it to apply to “...cast any arcane spell you know of
the same level or lower and of casting
time no longer than 1 round.”

(In the same vein, Incantatrix was erratae'd: Please add the following sentence to the end of the
Instant Metamagic class feature description:
The incantatrix cannot use this ability if the
metamagicked spell would normally use a spell slot of a
higher level than she can cast.)

Someone seems to actually have seen how hideous these things are without a caveat. Although it's fun how they fixed these small things and never did anything about the really big things like, say... Gate.

@Tidesinger
Teleport through time also requires a drop of [I]oil of timelessness, an item I only found in the 3.0 SRD. The oil itself costs (by 3.0 rules) 150GP, so I think a GM like Belial wouldn't permit you to get a drop of it for free. Or is there something I overlooked?

mostlyharmful
2009-07-31, 04:45 AM
(In the same vein, Incantatrix was erratae'd: Please add the following sentence to the end of the
Instant Metamagic class feature description:
The incantatrix cannot use this ability if the
metamagicked spell would normally use a spell slot of a
higher level than she can cast.)

Cut's it down a bit but not all that much. With the metareducers an Incantatrix gets and works out you'll still be persisting spells up to 5 or 6th level and there's not a whole lot of buffs above that that you really need persisted rather than extended. Greater Ironguard is about the only major loss from the usual incantatrix buff routine I can think of

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 04:51 AM
@Quick Comment
Per the errata, you can't use alacritous cogitation on Genesis, the errata limited it to apply to “...cast any arcane spell you know of
the same level or lower and of casting
time no longer than 1 round.”

Heighten Spell?


Teleport through time also requires a drop of [I]oil of timelessness, an item I only found in the 3.0 SRD. The oil itself costs (by 3.0 rules) 150GP, so I think a GM like Belial wouldn't permit you to get a drop of it for free. Or is there something I overlooked?

The whole thing with the flower and undisturbed ground.


Cut's it down a bit but not all that much. With the metareducers an Incantatrix gets and works out you'll still be persisting spells up to 5 or 6th level and there's not a whole lot of buffs above that that you really need persisted rather than extended. Greater Ironguard is about the only major loss from the usual incantatrix buff routine I can think of

Ghostform.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-31, 05:00 AM
Ghostform.

5th level. with Persist it's 11th. With two metareducers (one of which comes ready made with Incantatrix) you can have it at 17th, sleep for 8 hours, reprep your 9th levels for something useful and still have a good long run with it up.

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 05:03 AM
5th level. with Persist it's 11th. With two metareducers (one of which comes ready made with Incantatrix) you can have it at 17th, sleep for 8 hours, reprep your 9th levels for something useful and still have a good long run with it up.

It's 5th in Tome & Blood, but that's 3.0. The updated version, in Spell Compendium, is 8th.

You ever notice how the more text something has, the more broken it becomes? I feel like tax law must be the same way. We should put our collective optimizing together and go work for a fortune 500.

mostlyharmful
2009-07-31, 05:04 AM
It's 5th in Tome & Blood, but that's 3.0. The updated version, in Spell Compendium, is 8th.

Which makes it completely out of sight with the rejig. Gottcha.:smallsmile:

Aharon
2009-07-31, 05:06 AM
@mostlyharmful
Yeah, you're right. It's not much, but it does a bit.

@Myrmex
Hm, what about heighten spell? It doesn't change the casting time, does it?

@Flower thing
Well, two points.
a) Misremembered Eschew Materials. I thought if you can't eschew all, you can't eschew any. My bad.
b) The fact remains that you need a 3.0 only item to pull it off. It's a minor flaw, as RAW, 3.0 things are still legal if not updated, but in many actual games, 3.0 material is avoided AFAIK

I agree though that Tidesinger made a point, the spell is ridiculous and RAW legal, which is what matters for the discussion.

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 05:07 AM
You know, if you went with Spontaneous Divination at wizard 5 and picked up Versatile Spellcaster & Heighten Spell, you could persist up to 7th level spells. With Earth Magic (needs Earth Sense), you can get up to 8th level spells, as long as you've got your feet on natural earth. There, we did it.

Then you just Chaos Shuffle those feats away into something better after the morning prep. Or use a Limited Wish to imitate Psychic Reformation, though psionics are off limits for this competition.

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 05:09 AM
Hm, what about heighten spell? It doesn't change the casting time, does it?

Use Heighten Spell to put Alacratious Whatsit in a ninth level spell slot, and it counts as a ninth level spell. Using Heighten Spell to make lower level spells count as higher ones is the basis of the Killer Gnome.

Aharon
2009-07-31, 05:13 AM
The point about A.C. was that quick_comment wanted to use it to make casting Genesis faster. It's that feat that allows casting any spell you know in place of any other. Text here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alacritous_Cogitation,CM"). You could use the unerrata'd version found in the link to cast Genesis in a full-round action, you can't with the errata'd version.

I think you mean the Silent Image trick, but I am AFB, so I don't know if that allows changing the casting time.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 05:27 AM
Link Power allows similar shenanigans.

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 05:29 AM
The point about A.C. was that quick_comment wanted to use it to make casting Genesis faster. It's that feat that allows casting any spell you know in place of any other. Text here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alacritous_Cogitation,CM"). You could use the unerrata'd version found in the link to cast Genesis in a full-round action, you can't with the errata'd version.

I think you mean the Silent Image trick, but I am AFB, so I don't know if that allows changing the casting time.

Ohh, my b, I thought Alacritous Cogitation was a spell, not a feat. What's the errata change? It looks like due to the wording, you can't use Heighten Spell shens to mimic 10th level spells.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 05:38 AM
Unfortunately, the PgtF errata only hits instant metamagic, which is not actually where the problem lies. See, the spellcraft DCs are easily obviated, and anything that's valid for persist is generally okay for metamagic effect. Or you can abuse schism for this, and have your schism'd mind use cooperative metamagic on you for ultralulz.

Fortunately, incantatrix is banned by anyone who isn't insane.

For meditations on breaking the 10-cap with heighten, I suggest you look over the shadowcraft mage builds out there (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556). It is useful as a note of comparison that I consider shadowcraft mages to be the low bar for caster power. Gleemax-sama is the best teacher for these things I've encountered. Many praise Sifu-BG, but I will follow the 339th way for now.

Myrmex
2009-07-31, 05:41 AM
Fortunately, incantatrix is banned by anyone who isn't insane.

I've allowed it a couple times. It's uh... it's hard to challenge shadowpouncing rogues with wraithstrike while the wizard just says "No" to anything that wants to do anything.

PId6
2009-07-31, 05:47 AM
It is useful as a note of comparison that I consider shadowcraft mages to be the low bar for caster power.
Um, free 8th level slot 140% real Miracles are low bar?

Then again... yeah, you're right.

Doc Roc
2009-07-31, 05:50 AM
The miracles trick is disputed. If you allow that, it jumps pretty far up.
It's still not a tier 1\0 build by my meter, what with it being in the same rink with Twice Betrayer of Shaar. We had one in the Test of Spite, so you could go take a look. A little hammer here, a little hammer there, and it works out as another extremely fun character.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-31, 07:20 AM
A DM can always a kill a character is he/she really wants to. This fact is obvious, and I'm not sure what is trying to be proved here. That it can't be done using only CR appropriate monsters?

It is attempting to show that the claim that a level 20 Wizard is always unbeatable and unkillable is false.
I actually think that PF's Sorcerer might turn out better than a lot of the other Wizard builds. Sorcerers may have less spells known, but they have enough to cover all of the borken ones and they can get a lot more spells per day than a Wizard. I think a sorcerer has much more chance of being invincible at level 20 than a Wizard. Though as shown with the fairly standard (hardly gimped by any stretch of the imagination given the vast wealth he has) version PF put forward it is not even close to always being invincible.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-07-31, 07:56 AM
Not only that but with a prepared DM in an actual game, the wizard isn't nearly as powerful as some people think it is. Case in point, in my latest fight with Talic where he's using an ECL 20 party and I'm using a CR 25 BBEG, the warrior has been much more effective so far.


Also, I'm starting work on the challenges today. If you people aren't interested in running a wizard vs them, I might be making a campaign out of them.
Now I'm off to stat me Aszhara. Mmm, tentacles...

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 10:34 AM
(In the same vein, Incantatrix was erratae'd: Please add the following sentence to the end of the
Instant Metamagic class feature description:
The incantatrix cannot use this ability if the
metamagicked spell would normally use a spell slot of a
higher level than she can cast.)


Metamagic effect is used for persisting. Instant metamagic is for quickening.

And you never answered my question. Are things like Divine seeker and revenant blade in or out?

Kelpstrand
2009-07-31, 12:27 PM
and they can get a lot more spells per day than a Wizard.

Um, wait till you see my Focused Specialist Wizard entry?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-31, 12:59 PM
The miracles trick is disputed. If you allow that, it jumps pretty far up.
It's still not a tier 1\0 build by my meter, what with it being in the same rink with Twice Betrayer of Shaar. We had one in the Test of Spite, so you could go take a look. A little hammer here, a little hammer there, and it works out as another extremely fun character.

The shadowcraft gnome in the ToS lost to a low tier 2 sorcerer run by me for what it's worth.


It is attempting to show that the claim that a level 20 Wizard is always unbeatable and unkillable is false.
I actually think that PF's Sorcerer might turn out better than a lot of the other Wizard builds. Sorcerers may have less spells known, but they have enough to cover all of the borken ones and they can get a lot more spells per day than a Wizard.

You do not get enough spells known for all the broken ones and the necessary utility spells such as Fly and Teleport. Spells per day doesn't matter so much because Specialists are behind 2 spells per day and Focused Specialists 1.

Kelpstrand
2009-07-31, 01:12 PM
You do not get enough spells known for all the broken ones and the necessary utility spells such as Fly and Teleport. Spells per day doesn't matter so much because Specialists are behind 2 spells per day and Focused Specialists 1.

You got that mixed up. Specialists are behind 1 spell and Focused Specialists are tied.

Except of course for when they are ahead.

Example, since even levels favor Sorcerers (as much as they can be favored):

Level 12:
Sorcerer: 6/6/6/6/6/5/3
Specialist: 5/5/5/5/4/4/3
FS: 6/6/6/6/5/5/4

I'd say FS has the advantage in spells per day, being up one maximum level slot and down one two levels lower slot at all even levels.

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 01:32 PM
The sorcerer gets arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion though.


Of course, a wizard with (greater) arcane fusion (via recaster), gains the ability to spontaneously cast any spell he knows, which is sort of insane.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-31, 01:35 PM
You left out Arcane Spellsurge.

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 01:38 PM
You left out Arcane Spellsurge.

Arcane spellsurge isnt as good for wizards, because you need to be able to cast spells as full round actions to make good use of it. Although dweomerkeepers using mantle of spells can make awesome use of it.

The fusion spells though.....

Kelpstrand
2009-07-31, 01:43 PM
I'm not Saying FSs are straight better than Sorcerers. They might be, but I'm not saying that. Sorcerers still get Sorcerer spells that Wizards can't take, and three schools FS don't have, and Spontaneous Casting. I'm just saying FS win in spell slots.

Now I personally enjoy playing Sorcerers and Wizards and Specialist Wizards and FS Wizards. And as for power, I'd say it depends entirely on what your DM allows. For example, FS is a lot less sexy if Incantatrix is involved, and so is Sorcerer. But if Incantatrix is banned and RoD web supplement + Dragonwrought age bonuses is allowed, a Kobold Sorcerer can easily be of comparable power level to a Wizard, just in a different way.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-07-31, 01:46 PM
Arcane spellsurge isnt as good for wizards, because you need to be able to cast spells as full round actions to make good use of it. Although dweomerkeepers using mantle of spells can make awesome use of it.


I was thinking of Sorcerer advantages.

Nohwl
2009-07-31, 01:48 PM
Arcane spellsurge isnt as good for wizards, because you need to be able to cast spells as full round actions to make good use of it. Although dweomerkeepers using mantle of spells can make awesome use of it.

The fusion spells though.....

how does that work?

Skorj
2009-07-31, 07:21 PM
I'm eager to see the first fight. For all the CharOp discussion, I've never seen a Wizard pull out all the stops with a DM that tolerated moderate cheese. «Gets the popcorn ready»

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 07:39 PM
how does that work?

Arcane fusion lets you cast a level 4 spell you know and a level 1 spell you know. Greater Arcane fusion lets you do that with a level 7 and level 4 spell.

Sorcerers dont know many spells. Wizards do.

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 07:43 PM
Right now im deciding between (unoptimized, I havent looked at breakpoints for the classes)
Incarnate 1/Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Soulcaster 9/Initiate of the Seven Fold Vail 6/Recaster 2 and
Wizard 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Initiate 5.

The first one gets me DMM:Persist on a bunch of spells and maxed out essentia in everything.

The second one gets me supernatural wishes and gates, meaning no xp cost.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-01, 05:53 AM
Are things like Divine seeker and revenant blade in or out?
It depends. Are they in non-campaign WotC printed books in entries that aren't variant rules? Because if they aren't, they are out.


Incarnate 1/Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Soulcaster 9/Initiate of the Seven Fold Vail 6/Recaster 2
Where's Recaster from? And remember that you can't DMM arcane spells, only divine.


Wizard 5/Dweomerkeeper 10/Initiate 5
Dweomerkeeper isn't from a printed non-campaign book. So you can't use it.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-01, 09:17 AM
Been meaning to ask.

What's your ruling on Spontaneous Divination.

The Complete Champion write up allows you to cast off non Wizard lists. The errata makes it completely impossible to use for a character with only Wizard casting.

quick_comment
2009-08-01, 09:21 AM
Dweomerkeeper isn't from a printed non-campaign book. So you can't use it.

Complete Divine isnt a printed non-campaign book?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-01, 09:28 AM
Complete Divine isnt a printed non-campaign book?

It's his generic avoid all web supplements statement.

Of course, technically it negates all errata too, but whatever.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-01, 10:40 AM
Spontaneous Divination works. It still doesn't help qualify for Ultimate Magus with just a wizard because while you spontaneously cast divination spells, for spells in general you are still a prepared caster.

And my statement was "you can only use material already printed in a non-campaign WotC book". Electronic supplements add new material-thus said material can't be used. Erratta fixes existing material. Big difference.

Illven
2009-08-01, 11:39 AM
Where would I find Doomsday

Kelpstrand
2009-08-01, 11:42 AM
Spontaneous Divination works. It still doesn't help qualify for Ultimate Magus with just a wizard because while you spontaneously cast divination spells, for spells in general you are still a prepared caster.

Works how? Do I get Cleric and Bard divinations?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-01, 04:27 PM
I'll have to read on that erratta. But probably only sorceror/wizard ones.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-01, 07:02 PM
I'll have to read on that erratta. But probably only sorceror/wizard ones.

I don't even know why I'm bothering. The only spells worth casting in this combat challenge set up will be True Strike/True Casting/Assay. And I'm a Conjurer anyway, so I don't use attack roles or SR.

I guess I'll just grab some Master Specialist for my early levels. Don't worry about it.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-01, 07:47 PM
OK, because just about anyone is going to ask via divinations (or not), the current encounter chart contains 1 fey, 1 construct, 4 elementals, 3 dragons, 1 undead, 3 outsiders and 1 aberration.
The encounters are made for fairly optimised people. After looking at character stats, I reserve the right to downgrade the monsters if I believe they are too strong for said character to beat.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-01, 08:21 PM
I'll be a Sorcerer/Mindbender/MotAO/Fatespinner if that's allowed.

Talic
2009-08-01, 08:28 PM
Are Alternate Class Features allowed?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-01, 08:56 PM
OK, because just about anyone is going to ask via divinations (or not), the current encounter chart contains 1 fey, 1 construct, 4 elementals, 3 dragons, 1 undead, 3 outsiders and 1 aberration.
The encounters are made for fairly optimised people. After looking at character stats, I reserve the right to downgrade the monsters if I believe they are too strong for said character to beat.

Are those pre template types or post template. Because you know, most templates change type.

EDIT: Also, if I could play the Druid for all the different Wizard parties, that would be great, because Druids are awesome.

I'll still post my sheet when I'm done with it, and anyone who wants to can play it if they care. Also, before I do spells prepared, and preparation, how exactly do we start, IE where are we and what can we expect in our immediate future prior to the event that leads us on these fights.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-02, 03:50 AM
@Pharaoh's Fist;
To qualify for MotAO as a sorcerer, you have to take Arcane Preparation but otherwise you are free to use it.

@Talic;
Yes, they are. I consider them more character options rather than alternate rules like, say, taint.

@Kelpstrand;
Post-template. As for where do you start, this series of encounters is actually the latter half of a high-level campaign. You'll start as per the campaign.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 08:47 AM
@Kelpstrand;
Post-template. As for where do you start, this series of encounters is actually the latter half of a high-level campaign. You'll start as per the campaign.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what I'd have prepared, and what buffs might already be cast. Like, if I were in Sigil, I'd probably have nothing but buff spells prepared, and nothing cast.

Something similar in another city I can expect to be safe in. If however I've been asked to meet someone I don't know, I'd have already cast most of the really long duration buffs before getting there.

And can I play a Druid in the encounters/campaign as one of the other party members alongside all the Wizards. All my high level Druid building and play has been theoretical, but I think I can do it pretty darn well. And I'll keep OOC knowledge separate when preparing spells the second or more time through.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-02, 09:34 AM
The events leading up to the whole series of encounters is a near-endless invasion of abominations from the depths (aboleths, sahuagin, naga, water elementals, oceanus dragons, you name it we have it).
The PCs would learn that said abominations were searching for the Circle of Thirteen, an ancient brotherhood of spellcasters that is said to guard an artifact of immense power. With who knows how many enemies searching for them, when the PCs finally uncover the location of the ancient citadel, they must beat the guardians to get to the artifact before the enemy's army reaches that location.
The series of encounters begins with the PCs at the doors of said citadel.


@Kelpstrand;
You can play the druid if you want. In fact, we need a divine caster, warrior and skillmonkey characters about as optimised as the wizards to be used.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 10:09 AM
The events leading up to the whole series of encounters is a near-endless invasion of abominations from the depths (aboleths, sahuagin, naga, water elementals, oceanus dragons, you name it we have it).
The PCs would learn that said abominations were searching for the Circle of Thirteen, an ancient brotherhood of spellcasters that is said to guard an artifact of immense power. With who knows how many enemies searching for them, when the PCs finally uncover the location of the ancient citadel, they must beat the guardians to get to the artifact before the enemy's army reaches that location.
The series of encounters begins with the PCs at the doors of said citadel.

Okay, so extended hour per level and 24 hour buffs cast yesterday, then rest 8 hours, prepare combat suite, teleport to location, at least 9 hours gone on all 48 hour buffs. Cool.



@Kelpstrand;
You can play the druid if you want. In fact, we need a divine caster, warrior and skillmonkey characters about as optimised as the wizards to be used.

I don't know what you mean by "Warrior" and "Skillmonkey" since Rogues and Druids and Clerics are all Warriors. But since I think it's wrong to allow DMM Persist when Incantatrix is banned for being something most DMs won't allow, I could maybe shoot for making a non caster Archer character. I don't really have any experience with making high level Rogues though.

I'll make the Druid, and if anyone else wants to make something or play it I'll let them.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-02, 12:34 PM
Are we level 20 with some XP?

Frosty
2009-08-02, 12:55 PM
I might supply the warrior-type. You said no variants, but a lot of warrior types depend on alternative class features to survive. Also, what books does the warrior have access to?

I'm thinking of playing a standard Lockdown fighter, although I'm not super-good at optimizing those. Will probably be a Raptoran for natural Flight so I can still reach enemy flyers even if subjected to an AMF. Will probably rely on wizard to cast Enlarge Person orf will need to quaff potions of Enlarge Person. Have 20ft reach, and try to keep enemy casters from doing too much damage.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 01:47 PM
I might supply the warrior-type. You said no variants, but a lot of warrior types depend on alternative class features to survive. Also, what books does the warrior have access to?

I'm thinking of playing a standard Lockdown fighter, although I'm not super-good at optimizing those. Will probably be a Raptoran for natural Flight so I can still reach enemy flyers even if subjected to an AMF. Will probably rely on wizard to cast Enlarge Person orf will need to quaff potions of Enlarge Person. Have 20ft reach, and try to keep enemy casters from doing too much damage.

I would assume same restrictions apply, IE SRD only race, no campaign specific material, must be printed in a WotC book.

So Raptoran would be not allowed.

Although frankly, I don't see much point in SRD race only, since 90% of the Wizards will be Gray Elves and Fire Elves anyway. And it's not like any Wizard race outside of the SRD but not setting specific is any better.

It does however screw Druids a bit, Fighters a lot or none depending on build (Though since Dragonborn isn't a race, you could still be a Dragonborn Dwarf Fighter) and Sorcerers (Since Pharaoh apparently wants to be one in the challenge).

I don't think Rogues really need any race outside of SRD halflings.

I think you should just be able to be a whatever Wizard if you want, because I can't even think of any that are better than Core Gnome and Gray Elf for being a Wizard.

I mean, Deep Imaskari would be nice, but it's setting specific so no go there either.

EDIT: Also, he said ACFs are not variants.

Frosty
2009-08-02, 02:07 PM
Raptoran is NOT campaign specific. It is from Races of the Wild.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 02:17 PM
Raptoran is NOT campaign specific. It is from Races of the Wild.

As I said SRD races only. Raptoran is from Race of the Wild, and therefore not in the SRD.

Like I said, I don't agree with it, I'm making a Druid. But it's there.

imperialspectre
2009-08-02, 04:22 PM
I'm willing to put together a skillmonkey for the party. Granted, it'll probably be a Beguiler Shadowcraft Mage, but any character that's Int-based, has skill points, and has trapfinding qualifies in my mind.

(I'd also be glad to roll up a Rogue, but the "no setting specific" thing is a massive nerf to Rogues since two of their best tricks come from Faerun)

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 04:31 PM
I'm willing to put together a skillmonkey for the party. Granted, it'll probably be a Beguiler Shadowcraft Mage, but any character that's Int-based, has skill points, and has trapfinding qualifies in my mind.

(I'd also be glad to roll up a Rogue, but the "no setting specific" thing is a massive nerf to Rogues since two of their best tricks come from Faerun)

You can still throw out 10+ attacks with a UMDed Divine Power from a ring of blinking, but yeah. It does kill shadow pounce, and whatever other trick you had in mind (unless it was the other shadow pounce class).

Shadowcraft mage at least can overcome SR, though since Earth spell effectively gives +9 CL to all your 9th level spells, +8 to your 8th ect.

Frosty
2009-08-02, 04:33 PM
The Rogue can dip Warblade or Swordsage to be able to Pounce with a Maneuver...

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-02, 04:33 PM
Are we level 20 with some XP?
The encounters are supposed to level a 20th level 4 or 5 person group to 21st. I don't want you to level halfway through the fights so if you people want to have XP halfway to the next level it is with the understanding that you'll level only AFTER the fights are over.

SRD only race
That is because a lot of problems start with certain races. Thri-kreen fighter. Illumian wizard. Dragonwrought Kobold anything.
I am willing to extend the races with the following restriction; any race you choose must not have more ability score bonuses and penalties total and more powerful special abilities than the standard races.



the "no setting specific" thing is a massive nerf to Rogues since two of their best tricks come from Faerun
Everyone's two best tricks come from Faerun.

Frosty
2009-08-02, 04:44 PM
The Raptoran doesn't get any bonus feats or anything. The biggest thing it has is Average Maneuverability (Ex) flight so they can catch wizards even while inside an AMF.

fetfet
2009-08-02, 04:52 PM
Is anybody willing to test an nWoD Mage?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 05:02 PM
The encounters are supposed to level a 20th level 4 or 5 person group to 21st. I don't want you to level halfway through the fights so if you people want to have XP halfway to the next level it is with the understanding that you'll level only AFTER the fights are over.

SRD only race
That is because a lot of problems start with certain races. Thri-kreen fighter. Illumian wizard. Dragonwrought Kobold anything.
I am willing to extend the races with the following restriction; any race you choose must not have more ability score bonuses and penalties total and more powerful special abilities than the standard races.

Well, Dragonwrought is a feat, and Kobold is an SRD race, so you didn't even ban that one.

Now what do you mean when you say more ability score bonuses and penalties? Like the Whisper Gnome has +2/+2/-2/-2, that's more than "standard" in the since that is has more total bonuses and penalties, or do you mean like lesser Aasimar that is +2 Wis +2 Cha (it might have a minus in there somewhere it has the same stats as the MM one, just isn't an Outsider) so it's total bonus minus the absolute value of it's penalties can't be above +0 like standard races. I think lesser aasimar is banned either way, because it's still setting specific.

Also, if it's the first one, you already allowed a bunch of races that do that, in the SRD races list it has environment and subtype races which occasionally have +X +Y -Z -A.


Everyone's two best tricks come from Faerun.

Not True, the Druid's best trick comes from Ebberron.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-02, 05:10 PM
SRD under "races" has
o Humans
o Dwarves
o Elves
o Gnomes
o Half-Elves
o Half-Orcs
o Halflings
Everything else is under the "monster" heading.



Not True, the Druid's best trick comes from Ebberron.
Nope. Faerun has a plane which is the meeting place of the Pantheon. Everyone in that plane is invulnerable to ANY attacks or effects, including that of deities. Now add Planar Bubble. :smalltongue:

olentu
2009-08-02, 05:13 PM
SRD under "races" has
o Humans
o Dwarves
o Elves
o Gnomes
o Half-Elves
o Half-Orcs
o Halflings
Everything else is under the "monster" heading.



Nope. Faerun has a plane which is the meeting place of the Pantheon. Everyone in that plane is invulnerable to ANY attacks or effects, including that of deities. Now add Planar Bubble. :smalltongue:

Would that be the planar bubble that one gets from ebberon.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-02, 05:15 PM
Nope. Faerun has a plane which is the meeting place of the Pantheon. Everyone in that plane is invulnerable to ANY attacks or effects, including that of deities. Now add Planar Bubble. :smalltongue:


But isn't the Shepherd and Planar Bubble printed in an Ebberon book?

Ninjaed.

The Sarrukh......is from Faerun.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 05:19 PM
SRD under "races" has
o Humans
o Dwarves
o Elves
o Gnomes
o Half-Elves
o Half-Orcs
o Halflings
Everything else is under the "monster" heading.

Just because it's under a heading doesn't mean it's not a race.

There are many subraces of elf, are these subraces part of the elf race? Are they not races?

Also, the SRD also has elemental races and environmental races.

Now could you please answer my question about whether or not:

+2/+2/-2/-2 constitutes having more bonuses than a player race, or if it's only +2/-0.

fetfet
2009-08-02, 05:20 PM
Oncemore, I ask.

Is nWoD wizardry OK?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 05:20 PM
But isn't the Shepherd and Planar Bubble printed in an Ebberon book?

Ninjaed.

The Sarrukh......is from Faerun.

Well, Pun Pun is officially everyone's best trick, but he's still wrong because the Druids second best trick is from Ebberon.

EDIT: Does nWoD have an SRD? Because it has to be an SRD race.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-02, 05:21 PM
nWOD... World of Darkness?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 05:22 PM
nWOD... World of Darkness?

Yeah, it was an almost funny joke the first time, but I have no idea why he's repeating it.

fetfet
2009-08-02, 05:24 PM
nWoD has a core book. No SRD. Or races.

Edit: Because it was a legitimate question?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 05:25 PM
nWoD has a core book. No SRD. Or races.

Edit: Because it was a legitimate question?

Well then obviously not, because you can't make a nWoD character that follows the rules.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-02, 05:30 PM
Planar Bubble is also in the Planar Handbook.
Fun Fact: a wizard with planar bubble; the Astral has all his spells automatically quickened. (I think).

@Kelpstrand;
No more than a +2/-2 (comparable to elf or dwarf) and no more than a dwarf's special abilities. (which are pretty cool BTW, esp the +2 vs spells)

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 05:32 PM
No more than a +2/-2 (comparable to elf or dwarf) and no more than a dwarf's special abilities. (which are pretty cool BTW, esp the +2 vs spells)

So basically, no races at all.

Okay, I quit.

olentu
2009-08-02, 05:35 PM
Planar Bubble is also in the Planar Handbook.
Fun Fact: a wizard with planar bubble; the Astral has all his spells automatically quickened. (I think).

@Kelpstrand;
No more than a +2/-2 (comparable to elf or dwarf) and no more than a dwarf's special abilities. (which are pretty cool BTW, esp the +2 vs spells)

Oh so you mean that the druids best trick is a Cleric 7, sorcerer/wizard 7 spell that comes from the planar handbook.

By the by I am curious about which book said meeting place of the Pantheon is found.

Skorj
2009-08-02, 06:11 PM
So basically, no races at all.

Okay, I quit.

Yeah, my plan to play a half-tarrasque, half-elemental, half-dragon, half-punpun, half-Asmodeus, half-Cthulhu, conjoined Solar octuplet is right out. :smallfrown:

Are there really people who will rage quit if they can't have their cheese with extra cheese and cheese on the side? Somehow I doubt restricting races to the SRD makes Wizards tier 5 ...

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 06:18 PM
Yeah, my plan to play a half-tarrasque, half-elemental, half-dragon, half-punpun, half-Asmodeus, half-Cthulhu, conjoined Solar octuplet is right out. :smallfrown:

Are there really people who will rage quit if they can't have their cheese with extra cheese and cheese on the side? Somehow I doubt restricting races to the SRD makes Wizards tier 5 ...

He's not restricting them to the SRD. He's restricting them to PHB races, and then he decides, what the heck, I'll make special allowances for Druids/Clerics/Fighters/and Rogues to get some better races, but no +Int races of any kind are allowed in my Wizard challenge.

I was just going to play a Druid, and he just gave me access to Buomman. What he also did is not allow any Wizards to have any +int race of any kind. If he's not even going to pretend to be fair about it, there isn't much point.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-02, 06:18 PM
So basically, no races at all.
Okay, I quit.
If you want a bonus to intelligence, be venerable age and counter the aging penalties with the steal life spell. That is the very reason why I didn't allow other races that could potentially give you intelligence bonuses; you're already getting a +3 for free.
Druids and clerics that aren't evil can't even use that spell. Wizards can.

GoC
2009-08-02, 09:11 PM
So basically, no races at all.

Okay, I quit.

You quit because you think the wizard can't survive without that +2 to int?:smallconfused:

Yukitsu
2009-08-02, 09:17 PM
You quit because you think the wizard can't survive without that +2 to int?:smallconfused:

I think it's because the rules are trending towards arbitrary, and the DM is making it abundantly clear that anything that can be construed as advantageous to the wizard will be put down to the same level as everything else.

quick_comment
2009-08-02, 09:40 PM
I think it's because the rules are trending towards arbitrary

Exactly. That is why I am out as well.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-02, 09:42 PM
Thank you Yukitsu.

For the last time, I was going to play the Druid, IE the Druid with Wisdom 52.

Whether or not Wizards have +2 int has nothing to do with how sweet my character is, or even if they win (because they would have had my Druid there, and just been mop up anyway).

What's annoying is the arbitrary rules that don't do anything to prove anything.

Want to ban Incantatrix? Sure. Go ahead. Want to ban cheatery too powerful Gray Elves and Kobolds? I can only assume his hobby is trying to piss people off, because it sure doesn't make any sense.

Lamech
2009-08-02, 09:46 PM
Planar Bubble is also in the Planar Handbook.
Fun Fact: a wizard with planar bubble; the Astral has all his spells automatically quickened. (I think).


Still only one swift action per round. In fact stops readying spells.

Doc Roc
2009-08-02, 11:59 PM
Do you presume text trumps table for Rainbow Servant?

Do you consider the Spire a demiplane? as it is only accessible by planar travel?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 12:03 AM
The Beguiler's best trick, from CD?

Skorj
2009-08-03, 12:51 AM
Planar Bubble is also in the Planar Handbook.
Fun Fact: a wizard with planar bubble; the Astral has all his spells automatically quickened. (I think).

@Kelpstrand;
No more than a +2/-2 (comparable to elf or dwarf) and no more than a dwarf's special abilities. (which are pretty cool BTW, esp the +2 vs spells)

So a non-SRD +2 INT / -2 Something race with moderate special abilities works for a Wizard then, yes? From the hundred or so official D&D races, I've compiled the following list of every race that meet that criteria: Deep Imaskari

:biggrin:
I never really noticed that you can't hardly get +2 INT without +2 somthing else before. Nevertheless, Deep Imaskari have no racial abilities as cool as a dwarf, so there you go: Venerable Deep Imaskari for cheese with extra cheese.

What say you, Leveler?

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 12:55 AM
Are rods of embassy allowed?
Arms and Equipment guide.

Talic
2009-08-03, 01:20 AM
He's not restricting them to the SRD. He's restricting them to PHB races, and then he decides, what the heck, I'll make special allowances for Druids/Clerics/Fighters/and Rogues to get some better races, but no +Int races of any kind are allowed in my Wizard challenge.

I was just going to play a Druid, and he just gave me access to Buomman. What he also did is not allow any Wizards to have any +int race of any kind. If he's not even going to pretend to be fair about it, there isn't much point.

Simple.

This isn't a "Is the wizard stronger than the rest of the party" thread.

It's a design to test the wizard. The other classes aren't there to be a control.

They're there to provide backup relevant to the challenge.

The wizard's performance is what's judged, not the others.

It's not arbitrary, even though different standards are being used for the tested race, and the backup.

Because they're not being compared.

The wizard's defining characteristic is supposed to be: Wizard.

The backup must merely provide the archetype support that's required. If that can be accomplished with race? Good. If class? Good also.

But when the Wizard is being tested, then test the wizard.

Not the Half-nymph gravetouched ghoul evolved undead with a couple sorceror levels.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-03, 02:06 AM
@Lamech;
Astral gives you the option to quicken. :smallamused:

@Tidesinger;
Table-since it hasn't been errataed AFAIK. If you want a wizard with some divine magic, take one level of something with turn undead, the divine disciple feat and domain spontaneity. You can mem. 1 divine spell/level from that domain an a few times per day spontaneously convert existing spells into cleric spells. Sure, you only get limited divine magic but spontaneous Miracle is a huge boost for 2 feats and 1 lost CL.

The Spire is a specific feature of an infinite plane with slightly different traits so it's part of a plane rather than a demiplane. And it's reachable by walking only; planar travel auto-fails even close to it.

Finally, I don't have the arms and equipment guide. You'll have to explain what the rod does.

@Skorj;
In what book did you find Deep Imaskari again?

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 02:12 AM
let me do some research then, I guess.

Skorj
2009-08-03, 02:22 AM
@Skorj;
In what book did you find Deep Imaskari again?

Err, assuming that wasn't a rhetorical question, and I'm interpreting your answer to Kelpstrand correctly? Underdark. They seem like quite a reasonable race, if you're allowing non-PHB moderate races after all - just Humans (IIRC) with a stat mod (+2 INT/ -2 DEX) and barely any special abilities (can re-prepare a 1st level spell, +4 hide underground).

EDIT: but I'm in no way competent to play a 20 Wiz in 3.5, just trying to cut down the whining in the thread. :smallsmile:

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 02:42 AM
Two things:

1) I was wrong (I don't think I actually said it, but it was heavily implied). Belial is not being a jerk, or completely unfair. He is being very unfair, and going about this all the wrong way by writing "Don't bother" in place of the saves entry on his monster, but that's his prerogative, and both of those are my subjective judgments.

I'd like to apologize Belial. Just because you do things differently than I do doesn't mean it is wrong. But you are still wrong. On the internet.

That said: 2)

Not the Half-nymph gravetouched ghoul evolved undead with a couple sorceror levels.

Can people please stop comparing "My Race is Gray Elf" to this crap? Are Rogues cheating by getting +3 to attack roles by picking the Halfling race? Are Fighters cheating by picking the Orc or Half Orc race? +2 to the stat of your choice isn't template stacking. He's even decided to accept a Buomman Druid. And Druids come with a class feature +3 to Wisdom.

No one is demanding Half Tarrasques here.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 02:44 AM
Err, assuming that wasn't a rhetorical question, and I'm interpreting your answer to Kelpstrand correctly? Underdark. They seem like quite a reasonable race, if you're allowing non-PHB moderate races after all - just Humans (IIRC) with a stat mod (+2 INT/ -2 DEX) and barely any special abilities (can re-prepare a 1st level spell, +4 hide underground).

EDIT: but I'm in no way competent to play a 20 Wiz in 3.5, just trying to cut down the whining in the thread. :smallsmile:

He's still banning setting material blanketly, as I understand, and only allowing races with a modifier to only two stats races from other non setting specific races.

Skorj
2009-08-03, 02:55 AM
Two things:

1) I was wrong.

Wait, I thought I was connected to the internet until I read this, let me check my modem ...


But you are still wrong. On the internet.

LOL (literally), that really does explain a lot. :smallbiggrin:

I agree with your main point - while a +2 to a casting stat is far more valuable than +2 to something a T4+ class would use, that's only true if we accept W/C/D as unresonably overpowered. If Belial is claiming this is not so, then a +2 to a casting stat must be the same as a +2 to STR or DEX. :smallamused:

Oh, and somebody needs to man up and play a Half-Orc wizard in this test. With enough contingency timestop wish nonsense, how much does INT really matter anyhow?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-03, 03:14 AM
@Kelpstrand;
If you don't like "saving throw; don't bother" use a dispel on the item of resistance and the item increasing the ability score. Suddenly, the monster's saves might be as much as 9 points lower.
If you don't like "SR; don't bother" cast Assay Resistance and Truecasting. Wait, what's that? Actually useful 4th and 1st level spells? Oh noes!
Alternatively, use True Striking orbs while having high dexterity and Greater Heroism.
Don't expect to be effective without working for it.

Also, go ahead. Use the Deep Imaskari or Grey Elf. They aren't imbalanced. The limitation on races was there to stop the "half-tarrasques" in the first place.


EDIT:

Challenges are half-done. Challenge CR array is;
18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 22, 22, 23, 24, 24, 25
Some of the challenges are conditionally easier than their CR would indicate, as suggested by the DMG. Also, you won't be facing all the hard challenges at once. Challenge array by group is:
Group 1: 19, 19, 19, 19, 19
Group 2: 22, 22, 23
Group 3: 18, 18, 24, 24
Group 4: 21, 25
You will choose in what order you'll face the groups except for the BBEG group which must be last.

Talic
2009-08-03, 03:32 AM
Oh, and somebody needs to man up and play a Half-Orc wizard in this test. With enough contingency timestop wish nonsense, how much does INT really matter anyhow?
Consider the gauntlet picked up.

Int matters for bonus spells, though. That's far more important than DC's.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-03, 09:08 AM
Allright, who is definitely making the iconic optimised non-wizard characters? Because I suck at optimising tanks, comparatively speaking.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-08-03, 10:57 AM
Allright, who is definitely making the iconic optimised non-wizard characters? Because I suck at optimising tanks, comparatively speaking.

I could whip up a few after work today; what books are you allowing--i.e., are Tome of Battle types okay, can a fighter have Dungeoncrasher, and so on--given that (A) tanks need several more books than casters to be good and (B) you're testing the wizard and not the tank?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 12:33 PM
Well, I suppose I'm still making the Druid.

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 01:12 PM
I can roll the skill monkey.

::Malevolent grin ::


If you'll let me.

Lamech
2009-08-03, 01:45 PM
Umm... obvious question. That may have been answered, but how much is the cost to aquire new spells for the wizzy's spell book?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 02:07 PM
Umm... obvious question. That may have been answered, but how much is the cost to aquire new spells for the wizzy's spell book?

You are level 20 Wizard. You have the spells you want in your spellbook. It's not like anyone is going to have more than 12 spells for any given spell level.

EDIT: This is not something Belial has said, it is my guess at what he will say.

Also, two questions:

1) Belial, are you limiting Shapechange forms beyond the stipulations for all material (IE published WotC book that is not campaign setting).

2) If someone casts Disguise self to look like a Fire Giant Skeleton, what, step by step, happens when a Dragon shows up and sees them? And what information does the Dragon act upon.

Frosty
2009-08-03, 02:29 PM
Wouldn't you be the wrong size for a Fire Giant skeleton? Now, assuming you're the right size...the dragon probably gets a spot check? Maybe with bonuses depending on how many senses Disguise Self and fool. Remember, dragons have Blindsense.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 04:20 PM
Wouldn't you be the wrong size for a Fire Giant skeleton? Now, assuming you're the right size...the dragon probably gets a spot check? Maybe with bonuses depending on how many senses Disguise Self and fool. Remember, dragons have Blindsense.

1) I'm a 20th level Druid. I can be any size I want to be.

2) If it is important, the differences between thousand faces to look like said creature and disguise self. However, you still have to be roughly the same shape and size, so I think it's fair to say that blindsense doesn't tell it your actual shape, since it doesn't even tell it where you are in the square. If it was blindsight, that might be different.

Blindsense says, "There is a large creature in that ten foot area."

3) I'm not worried about the Dragon making his spot check, he has 43 ranks in Spot, and I have 0 ranks in Disguise and a negative Charisma mod.

What I'm interested in does making the spot check automatically allow him to see my true form? Or does he just know it's a disguise spell, and I'm hiding something.

tyckspoon
2009-08-03, 04:36 PM
3) I'm not worried about the Dragon making his spot check, he has 43 ranks in Spot, and I have 0 ranks in Disguise and a negative Charisma mod.

What I'm interested in does making the spot check automatically allow him to see my true form? Or does he just know it's a disguise spell, and I'm hiding something.

The Dragon would know you are in disguise (or, more accurately, that something is weird about the way you look.) It requires a DC 80 Spot check to actually penetrate an illusion non-magically. Making a successful Spot against your Disguise may be sufficient reason to make a saving throw against a Disguise Self spell, but even succeeding on that save will not reveal your actual appearance to the dragon- unlike Figments and Phantasms, Glamers (such as Disguise Self) do not fade to translucence when somebody saves. The dragon would simply know that your current appearance is an illusion.

If you are using Thousand Faces instead, then the only thing the dragon can tell from visual inspection is that you look kind of off for a (whatever you are pretending to be.) As a Supernatural ability and a real physical change, the only way the dragon can identify your real appearance beneath the Thousand Faces disguise is to resort to True Seeing or suppressing the effect with an AMF. I would question the power's ability to disguise as your suggested form, however- no flesh at all is a pretty big step from "fat or thin." You could probably make yourself into a convincing Zombie if it's crucial that you seem to be undead.

Talic
2009-08-03, 04:41 PM
Darkstalker > Blindsense

Hide is one of the most easily buffed skills in the game.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 04:55 PM
1) tyckspoon, I'm asking Belial specifically, because he has many different interpretations of spells than the norm, generally designed to nerf spells more.


Darkstalker > Blindsense

Hide is one of the most easily buffed skills in the game.

Well, A) not hiding, using disguise self.

B) I'm not using Darkstalker (Not because it's cheesy on PCs, though it maybe is a little bit, not too much. Just because I don't have Hide as a class skill, and hiding my Druid with better saves than probably all three other characters, and better AC than any of them, and more HP than half of them wouldn't actually help the party much), and I certainly hope the DM doesn't, because there is pretty much nothing stopping him from deciding:

Mindsight and Touchsight are like Blindisht for the purposes of Darkstalker, my Dragon has a +85 Hide and MS check. HAHA I are Invulnerable.

And that would be very annoying, and stupid.

Heck even without the Mindsight and Touchsight, it would basically reduce it to Wizards with a Mindbender dip.

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 05:02 PM
There are wizards who don't dip mindbender or get mindsight some other way?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 06:05 PM
There are wizards who don't dip mindbender or get mindsight some other way?

Specialist Conjurers who ban Enchantment.

Oh, and what should I do about Bonus HD for AC? Skill points can go where they would have anyway, but what about feats?

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 06:09 PM
This is what elven generalist is for. :|

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 06:10 PM
This is what elven generalist is for. :|

Elven Generalist does not get Abrupt Jaunt.

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 06:14 PM
True, but I'm going to be chewing through my immediate actions in so many other ways its not even funny.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-03, 07:00 PM
1) Every other character is limited in exactly the same sources as a wizard. Which reminds me; I need to update said sources in the OP.

2) Shapechange is limited by sources (obviously) and familiarity to the creature in question according to the spell's wording. So as to not make an arbitrary ruling on things (some people don't like that) take a look at the existing table for target knowledge included in the scrying spell; a "familiar" creature is one you know well. Having heard of it or having met it once is not enough.
For the sake of simplicity, let's say that includes all creatures that you could have encountered more than once-that is, all creatures that could be in standard and easy encounters for your level or lower. (CR 20 or less). That is obviously many more creatures than you could be familiar with but I don't want to get into a discussion of which character is familiar with what.

3) If somebody disguises herself as a fire giant skeleton? She is obviously a disguised fire giant skeleton. Skeletons are not intelligent enough to act on their own initiative unless commanded and even then can't understand complicated orders. So if you act without being commanded you are pretty much outed. If you do anything beyond simple actions you are pretty much outed.
You should choose a more plausible disguise. For a more plausible disguise, it is your disguise check with a +10 bonus vs the dragon's sense motive-up until you do something that the creature you're disguised as could not do. The dragon can't see your true form (except with discern shapechanger and true seeing) but realises something is wrong.

Talic
2009-08-03, 07:16 PM
3) If somebody disguises herself as a fire giant skeleton? She is obviously a disguised fire giant skeleton. Skeletons are not intelligent enough to act on their own initiative unless commanded and even then can't understand complicated orders. So if you act without being commanded you are pretty much outed. If you do anything beyond simple actions you are pretty much outed.
You should choose a more plausible disguise. For a more plausible disguise, it is your disguise check with a +10 bonus vs the dragon's sense motive-up until you do something that the creature you're disguised as could not do. The dragon can't see your true form (except with discern shapechanger and true seeing) but realises something is wrong.

Actually, you get the +10 regardless, as the spell explicitly grants it. The non-plausible act would apply another, seperate circumstance bonus.

In addition, there are many ways to command undead without verbal communication. It's devilishly hard to show that the skeleton's acting on its initiative.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 07:20 PM
1) Was this saying that I could pick whatever feats I want as long as they are in appropriate books and my companion meets the pre reqs?

3a) "Your Disguise check result determines how good the disguise is, and it is opposed by others’ Spot check results." So, not really sense motive.

3b) I'm not actually trying to trick anyone with the Skeleton disguise, that's my point.

But hypothetically, if he sees a bad Fire Giant Skeleton, then what does he actually know about the character hiding behind the disguise? Basically nothing.

He doesn't even know that it's not a Fire Giant skeleton with Disguise self cast to look like a bad Fire Giant Skeleton Disguise (It would probably have to be an Awakened Skeleton with Hat of Disguise, or maybe you could get a Mindless Skeleton to activate a Hat of Disguise).

So it just prevents initial knowledge based on appearance.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-03, 07:20 PM
Command Undead commands aren't telepathic. (and telepathy doesn't work on mindless creatures anyway). So unless sb is actually telling said undead what to do it's either an intelligent undead or not an undead at all.

Which reminds me; why not pretend to be an intelligent undead instead? Say, lich.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 07:23 PM
Which reminds me; why not pretend to be an intelligent undead instead? Say, lich.

Fire Giant Skeleton was just a basic example, I am only interested in the General case. For Particulars, what I choose to be will depend on what my current Wildshape/Shapechange for is, since Disguise Self doesn't change perceived size.

If I choose to Awaken my Animal Companions on a semi regular basis as a reward, how much would, "The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it." Get me, if I want it to serve me in the task of obtaining this artifact we are going for?

If the answer is anything greater than "nothing" I would only have myself + my new AC + one old AC awakened that helps for however long in whatever way. I don't think I have an IC jutification for a level 20 Druid who awakens animals more often than once per six months or level whichever takes longer.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-03, 08:17 PM
Challenges are half-done. Challenge CR array is;
18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 22, 22, 23, 24, 24, 25
Some of the challenges are conditionally easier than their CR would indicate, as suggested by the DMG. Also, you won't be facing all the hard challenges at once. Challenge array by group is:
Group 1: 19, 19, 19, 19, 19
Group 2: 22, 22, 23
Group 3: 18, 18, 24, 24
Group 4: 21, 24
You will choose in what order you'll face the groups except for the BBEG group which must be last.

When you say Challenge CR, do you mean Challenge EL, or is every single Challenge against a single monster? Feel free to not divulge, but I certainly hope that there are multiple monster fights.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-03, 08:44 PM
Do you presume text trumps table for Rainbow Servant?


I'd like to know if this holds true as well.

Doc Roc
2009-08-03, 10:59 PM
He said it doesn't because there's no errata, which didn't make sense to me, since they normally errata the text not the table.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-04, 03:43 AM
@Kelpstrand;
If you pay the cost of Awaken in a scroll or cast it on your own, sure. Though an awakened animal would be friendly; it would help you but not to the point of giving its life for you.

As for the challenges, that is the challenge of the entire encounter. Some challenges might have more than one creature.

@Tidesinger;
What I meant is that since no erratta exists to say otherwise, the actual rules table trumps the descriptive text unless it is obviously misprinted.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-04, 03:49 AM
@Tidesinger;
What I meant is that since no erratta exists to say otherwise, the actual rules table trumps the descriptive text unless it is obviously misprinted.

The general procedure is Text trumps Table.

olentu
2009-08-04, 03:57 AM
@Tidesinger;
What I meant is that since no erratta exists to say otherwise, the actual rules table trumps the descriptive text unless it is obviously misprinted.

That would seem to run counter to the primary source rule.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-04, 04:03 AM
That would seem to run counter to the primary source rule.

???

You lost me. If there's some rule about that thing already, we should be using it (and why did you ask for a ruling if there was one?) but I haven't read it. Link?

Eldariel
2009-08-04, 04:07 AM
???

You lost me. If there's some rule about that thing already, we should be using it (and why did you ask for a ruling if there was one?) but I haven't read it. Link?

He refers to the rule stated in all official 3.5 errata documents about "Primary Source" - basically, this:

"When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the
primary source is correct. One example of a
primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over
a table entry. An individual spell description takes
precedence when the short description in the beginning
of the spells chapter disagrees.
Another example of primary vs. secondary sources
involves book and topic precedence. The Player's
Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing
the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class
descriptions. If you find something on one of those
topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the
Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's
Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is
the primary source. The DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the
primary source for topics such as magic item
descriptions, special material construction rules, and so
on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for
monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural,
extraordinary, and spell-like abilities."

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-04, 04:08 AM
???

You lost me. If there's some rule about that thing already, we should be using it (and why did you ask for a ruling if there was one?) but I haven't read it. Link?

Example: The text for Ascetic Rogue says that Rogue and Monk levels stack for sneak attack, stunning fist, and other abilities. The text does not mention sneak attack at all.

The table is considered to be wrong and the instructions found there ignored.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-04, 04:13 AM
Oh. I'd forgotten about that. Go ahead and use the text instead of the table.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-04, 04:32 AM
The final BBEG is more or less ready. Who wants to see? :smallamused:

Kelpstrand
2009-08-04, 04:45 AM
@Kelpstrand;
If you pay the cost of Awaken in a scroll or cast it on your own, sure. Though an awakened animal would be friendly; it would help you but not to the point of giving its life for you.

That's fine. It would be a poor reward to awaken him for his good service only to have him die in the first few weeks of his new life.

Tehnar
2009-08-04, 06:38 AM
The final BBEG is more or less ready. Who wants to see?


I do, I do. :)

Kelpstrand
2009-08-05, 01:10 AM
My Druid is unofficially ready. I have no more work to do, will post when Boss Man says he has all the challenges complete.

Preparations will need some finagling based on where exactly we are, where exactly we were one day ago, and other factors, but the basic plan is in place.

Oh yeah, and whoever takes the "Warrior" roll, I think it should be me.

But if you do, you can't be a trip fighter because we are level 20, you have to be an Ubercharger or an Archer for massive damage.

You are not a Tank. There is no such thing as a Tank. And I lockdown better than you. I will happily take the Warrior roll to give someone else then Cleric, so that they can Banish with +900 to CL and saving throws, and cast Lower Resistance on Dragons. Also, I can get my AC up into the 70s with a Cleric casting GMV.

Which brings me to another funny note. Druids have some pretty good and some merely okay SR: No spells. But they actually can't do anything against "appropriately optimized" challenges who apparently signed up for +30 SR school. Like, If I roll nothing but 11s, the highest SR I can ever break is SR 41. Because Druids don't get True casting, Lower Resistance, or Assay Resistance, so we just roll 20s and still fail.

I mention this only because I expect the Wizard and the "Divine Caster" to have these things where they can.

Lamech
2009-08-05, 12:15 PM
The final BBEG is more or less ready. Who wants to see? :smallamused:

I have a character ready except for equitment and spell selection, and I still need to know how much you're charging for spells. (Scroll price, 100gp*level, 100gp*level to fifth then half scroll price? The cost of spells had a guideline but it said that higher level spells might be more expensive.) I kind of need prices for spell selection.

Doc Roc
2009-08-05, 12:46 PM
Hey Kelp, would you like a hand cracking SR?

Kelpstrand
2009-08-05, 01:22 PM
Hey Kelp, would you like a hand cracking SR?

Well it's mostly an issue of Druids are not Wizards and Belial is optimizing for Wizards.

I have a lot of Conjuration Creation stuff I can pull, but my CL is not going to get any higher than 26, so even with little +4 against SR stuff, I still can't ever beat SR 50 unless the Wizard or Cleric throws out Assay Resistance and Lower Resistance.

If you know of some good CL increases for Druids, I'll take the advice though.

Lamech
2009-08-05, 01:55 PM
Hey Kelp, would you like a hand cracking SR?

I would for a wizard.

Talic
2009-08-05, 02:11 PM
My Druid is unofficially ready. I have no more work to do, will post when Boss Man says he has all the challenges complete.

Preparations will need some finagling based on where exactly we are, where exactly we were one day ago, and other factors, but the basic plan is in place.

Oh yeah, and whoever takes the "Warrior" roll, I think it should be me.

But if you do, you can't be a trip fighter because we are level 20, you have to be an Ubercharger or an Archer for massive damage.

You are not a Tank. There is no such thing as a Tank. And I lockdown better than you. I will happily take the Warrior roll to give someone else then Cleric, so that they can Banish with +900 to CL and saving throws, and cast Lower Resistance on Dragons. Also, I can get my AC up into the 70s with a Cleric casting GMV.

Which brings me to another funny note. Druids have some pretty good and some merely okay SR: No spells. But they actually can't do anything against "appropriately optimized" challenges who apparently signed up for +30 SR school. Like, If I roll nothing but 11s, the highest SR I can ever break is SR 41. Because Druids don't get True casting, Lower Resistance, or Assay Resistance, so we just roll 20s and still fail.

I mention this only because I expect the Wizard and the "Divine Caster" to have these things where they can.
I'm almost tempted to build the fighter just to prove you wrong. There's many styles of fighter that work, and you don't need ubercharger to make them. Or archer.

Doc Roc
2009-08-05, 03:01 PM
We could do that, or we could build a really elegant divine Gish...

Choices, choices...

Still not clear on the source list: Is it all non-setting specific material? I need you to edit it into the first post, Belial.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-05, 03:08 PM
Favored Soul5/Ruathar3/Sacred Exorcist2/Full casting advancement10

Doc Roc
2009-08-05, 03:08 PM
There's better filler than ruathar for this. I'll work it over myself later.

Lamech
2009-08-05, 03:09 PM
Hey I would like to point out one thing. Do we have a control group? I mean if we are trying to determine if the wizard is unbalanced or not we need something to compare it too. A couple groups should replace the wizard with a non-caster class to see if its broken or not. We can't really say that the wizard would have been less effective than a warblade with out trying it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-05, 03:19 PM
There's better filler than ruathar for this. I'll work it over myself later.

Ruather gives you Knowledge skills and more skill points. This benefits K. Devotion, which all the cool gishes have.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-05, 03:26 PM
I'm almost tempted to build the fighter just to prove you wrong. There's many styles of fighter that work, and you don't need ubercharger to make them. Or archer.

Well let's see what I actually said about fightering:

1) You are not a Tank, there is no such things as a Tank.

Goad and Knights Challenge are the only things that actually direct attacks, and neither even does a very good job of it.

2) Don't build a Tripper. We are fighting things that fly, because we are level 20. Some of those things fly magically, IE with Magic and can't be tripped. Some of them have Str scores of 40 and are Colossal size, IE you aren't tripping them. Many of them are going to attack from range, IE you are not helping.

That is all I said. I suggested one of two better builds. But that's just to emphasize options that are not trippers.

Doc Roc
2009-08-05, 04:28 PM
Hey I would like to point out one thing. Do we have a control group? I mean if we are trying to determine if the wizard is unbalanced or not we need something to compare it too. A couple groups should replace the wizard with a non-caster class to see if its broken or not. We can't really say that the wizard would have been less effective than a warblade with out trying it.

I believe this is an actual-factual necessity.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 04:01 AM
@everyone;

Slight problem with the challenges. Turns out that unless I wanna make carbon-copies of 3-4 encounters (which I don't) or limit challenges to only one or two types of creatures (which I also don't), I have to make no less than 14 different opponents. Which might take more time than previously expected.

In short, I'm only half done.

Talic
2009-08-07, 04:10 AM
Well let's see what I actually said about fightering:

1) You are not a Tank, there is no such things as a Tank.

Goad and Knights Challenge are the only things that actually direct attacks, and neither even does a very good job of it.Stand Still + Stances that make any movement provoke + feats that make any casting provoke = not many things can do much to get away. From there, it's use of terrain to deny the challenge potential targets.


2) Don't build a Tripper. We are fighting things that fly, because we are level 20. Some of those things fly magically, IE with Magic and can't be tripped. Some of them have Str scores of 40 and are Colossal size, IE you aren't tripping them. Many of them are going to attack from range, IE you are not helping.Most rely on magic. I guarantee you I can build a tripper that can effectively trip/lockdown 95% of the MM. This also applies to CR20+ encounters, and things that fly, both magically and non.


That is all I said. I suggested one of two better builds. But that's just to emphasize options that are not trippers.
That is not what you said. You explicitly told your party members what to play, and how to play it. "Don't do this"... "Don't do that"...

That is my number 1 pet peeve in any game I play. If you are going to play a character, play a character. If you want more than 1?

DM.

Otherwise, your control ends at the borders of your character sheet. And most people don't much appreciate being how to build and how not to build in what is supposed to be a social game.

Don't be that guy.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 04:16 AM
Which begs the question; how much more difficult to trip is a creature with a dozen foot-analogues? (i.e. a dozen tentacles, a dozen feet, a dozen insectiod limbs and so on)

Talic
2009-08-07, 04:20 AM
Making a Trip Attack

Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid. If you win, you trip the defender. If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you.

By the RAW, whether it's 3 legs or 30, it's +4.

lothos
2009-08-07, 04:53 AM
(snip)
That is my number 1 pet peeve in any game I play. If you are going to play a character, play a character. If you want more than 1?

DM.
(snip)

Or maybe take the Leadership feat ? If the DM allows it.

Seriously though, I agree with you strongly on your general point. I used to DM a 1st Edition game and there was one particular player who wanted to control everyone else in the party. It started out subtly, but got worse as time went on.

There was an incident when eventually he went too far and tried to use "suggestion" to force another player to take a certain course of action. He wanted to suggest to another player that they give him their ring of invisibility. I ruled that he couldn't directly do that. So he tried to get the other player to help him in a fight that the other player wanted nothing to do with. So he used suggestion to achieve that.

I allowed it worked in the sense that the other character was compelled to follow the suggestion (failed his save). The strategy failed overall though, because we never invited him to play again. That was the straw that broke the camels back. The rest of the group reached a consensus that he wasn't welcome.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 04:54 AM
I guess I should put or :smalltongue: to make sure other ppl recognize humor on the internet.


BTW, how are we dealing with Foresight vs Mind Blank? Can wizards be surprised/flat-footed by an opponent with Mind Blank or similar abilities?

Talic
2009-08-07, 04:59 AM
I guess I should put or :smalltongue: to make sure other ppl recognize humor on the internet.


BTW, how are we dealing with Foresight vs Mind Blank? Can wizards be surprised/flat-footed by an opponent with Mind Blank or similar abilities?

I'd say:

Foresight works defensively (not flat-footed) but not offensively (best action to avoid).

Basically, someone sees themself injured, but not the attack or where it came from. Enough to be aware, but not enough to see what it was.

Killer Angel
2009-08-07, 05:08 AM
Most rely on magic. I guarantee you I can build a tripper that can effectively trip/lockdown 95% of the MM. This also applies to CR20+ encounters, and things that fly, both magically and non.


I don't want to contest you, but I'm curious. How can you trip/lockdown flying creatures, etc.?
I'm actually playing a tripper (9th lev) and flying creatures are a problem, so any idea is welcome. I can fight them (I fly too), but otherwise...

Talic
2009-08-07, 05:10 AM
I don't want to contest you, but I'm curious. How can you trip/lockdown flying creatures, etc.?
I'm actually playing a tripper (9th lev) and flying creatures are a problem, so any idea is welcome. I can fight them (I fly too), but otherwise...

Stand Still is the number one way. Also, note that creatures in the air can be tripped. It provides no movement penalty, true, but there's nothing barring them from being tripped.

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-07, 05:32 AM
I don't want to contest you, but I'm curious. How can you trip/lockdown flying creatures, etc.?
I'm actually playing a tripper (9th lev) and flying creatures are a problem, so any idea is welcome. I can fight them (I fly too), but otherwise...

Bolas. Bolas from A&EG. There is a similar object in frostburn, don't remember the name.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-07, 05:51 AM
Stand Still is the number one way.

Stand Still is not tripping, and has nothing to do with tripping. I'm also not impressed with methods that allow you to hold a creature within full attack range of you but not otherwise limit their options.

That said. What I said was,

A) "You are not a Tank, there is no such thing as a Tank." This statement is true. I don't know why you are getting upset.

B) "Don't build a tripper because there are going to be a crap ton of flying things immune to trip and ranged attackers who never close" This statement is also true, and I did tell people to not build a X, I gave a reason. Is it terribly wrong of me to say, "Don't build a Wizard with 9 Int, you won't be able to cast spells."?

Would it be wrong of me to expect someone to not build such a Wizard for this challenge? Why can't I expect them to build a "Warrior" that actually brings something to the table? Why can't I demand it?

This is a lot less of a social game when it's a mechanical challenge and not an actual game. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy it like a social game, but it does mean I can expect a certain level of playing up to the challenge.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 06:11 AM
Actually, I have seen lvl 20 tanks. They don't goad enemies to attack them; they just have enough defences to survive for several rounds and enough attack strength that ignoring them isn't an option.

I mean, 40+ attack, 150+ damage per hit and enough saves/resilience to not die often is a tank.

Killer Angel
2009-08-07, 06:29 AM
B) "Don't build a tripper because there are going to be a crap ton of flying things immune to trip and ranged attackers who never close" This statement is also true, and I did tell people to not build a X, I gave a reason. Is it terribly wrong of me to say, "Don't build a Wizard with 9 Int, you won't be able to cast spells."?

Would it be wrong of me to expect someone to not build such a Wizard for this challenge? Why can't I expect them to build a "Warrior" that actually brings something to the table? Why can't I demand it?


Nothing wrong, and you can certaily ask for it. But this is a D&D forum, and when you present a "challenge", you'll find someone who tries to overcome it, just for the lulz.
In this case, someone will try to think to a "tripper" able to stand his own at 20th lev.
The Horizon tripper, with reach weapon and the right feats (stand still is one), probably is playable and not totally screwed. Maybe.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 06:32 AM
Sent the BBEG to a couple of people. I am waiting for feedback.

Doc Roc
2009-08-07, 09:32 AM
Source list. House rules. Full-stop. Please put them in first post. Full-stop. Carriage Return.
Cordially, Jake.

Talic
2009-08-07, 11:02 AM
Stand Still is not tripping, and has nothing to do with tripping. I'm also not impressed with methods that allow you to hold a creature within full attack range of you but not otherwise limit their options.
Limiting their options is the province of the defenses of individual characters. If that "not-a-tank" is hitting with 40-50% accuracy, you can't get away, and anything you do provokes an AoO for damage? I'd consider that "limiting options". If the others have defenses to make them rough targets, then the fighter is the only viable target. Making someone attack, or move, is less about a saving throw, and more about defining their options. The sooner you grasp that, the sooner you'll grasp what an effective "tank" is, in games that don't have threat and aggro.

You get someone too dangerous to ignore, and too resilient to quickly drop, and that's a tank.


That said. What I said was,

A) "You are not a Tank, there is no such thing as a Tank." This statement is true. I don't know why you are getting upset.Because you are trying to tell everyone what they aren't. What a player "is" and "is not" is their choice. Not yours.


B) "Don't build a tripper because there are going to be a crap ton of flying things immune to trip and ranged attackers who never close" This statement is also true, and I did tell people to not build a X, I gave a reason. Is it terribly wrong of me to say, "Don't build a Wizard with 9 Int, you won't be able to cast spells."?See above.
Trip builds are quite popular, and many also use Stand Still, as it complements nicely with tripping for lockdown. Telling someone what not to do is rude. Especially when the trip concept gets a lot of love, and, contrary to what you think, can be effective at all levels.


Would it be wrong of me to expect someone to not build such a Wizard for this challenge? Why can't I expect them to build a "Warrior" that actually brings something to the table? Why can't I demand it?Because your right for demands ends with... Um, well it ends where it begins. This is not a game of orders and demands, unless they are in character. When you make a statement like the one you made above? You come off as treating that player like he doesn't know crap, and needs the glorious Kelp to enlighten him.


This is a lot less of a social game when it's a mechanical challenge and not an actual game. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy it like a social game, but it does mean I can expect a certain level of playing up to the challenge.And you are more than welcome to politely address such concerns privately if you feel the character is less than optimized. You can rationally explain your opinions, and perhaps offer assistance. See? That's reasonable.

But if you do, you can't be a trip fighter because we are level 20, you have to be an Ubercharger or an Archer for massive damage.
Is not. And those, contrary to what you said above, were your exact words. "You have to be XXX or YYY." "You can't be ZZZ."

Don't believe me? Post 213.

You come off as treating others like children. That was the point where your line of reasoning became undefendable. You are telling other people exactly what two builds you're going to allow them to play.

It's rude, it's uncalled for, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-07, 01:57 PM
You get someone too dangerous to ignore, and too resilient to quickly drop, and that's a tank.

That's not a Tank, that's a character. Rogues are too resilient to quickly drop and too dangerous to ignore. Wizards are too resilient to drop quickly and too dangerous to ignore. There is no tank, because that is not tanking, that is being a character and precisely my point. To be a Tank one must have some way of influencing enemies options such that other people can get away with weaker defenses. They can't.


Because you are trying to tell everyone what they aren't. What a player "is" and "is not" is their choice. Not yours.

So If I make a level 20 character with AC 10 and saves of +2/+2/+2 and 50HP, I get to decide if that's a Tank? No. Being a Tank means meeting the qualifications for being a Tank, which is not something you can do in D&D.


Is not. And those, contrary to what you said above, were your exact words. "You have to be XXX or YYY." "You can't be ZZZ."

Don't believe me? Post 213.

You come off as treating others like children. That was the point where your line of reasoning became undefendable. You are telling other people exactly what two builds you're going to allow them to play.

No, I treated people like they were smart enough to know that any build that succeeded at meeting my objections is a valid build. Why you expected me to list every conceivable level 20 build or none is beyond me.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-07, 01:58 PM
Stop arguing, people.

Doc Roc
2009-08-07, 02:05 PM
:: Drops a Shout to draw aggro ::

I'm going to go so far as to suggest that I think I can probably beat this challenge with five or less sources for me 'zard.

Comp Arcane
SRD
MiC
SpC
Lords Of Madness, is my guess.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 02:43 PM
@Tidesinger;

I updated the OP this morning (some 12 hours ago). Allowed sources are all WotC books that are not campaign-specific.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-07, 03:43 PM
I updated the OP this morning (some 12 hours ago). Allowed sources are all WotC books that are not campaign-specific.

Oh goody, a late term stealth nerf to Shapechange after I've already completed my character. :facepalm:

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-07, 03:55 PM
Stealth-nerf? I discussed shapechange limitations several posts ago, long before updating the OP but I'll post them again;

Shapechange requires familiarity. Familiarity with a creature means having encountered it more than once. In order to encounter a creature more than once, it needs to be a non-unique encounter thus not a BBEG or other increased-CR encounter but a standard one. You cannot have encountered creatures of more than CR 20 in level 20 or before in standard encounters.

Hence you can't be familiar with them and hence you can't shapechange into them.

Kelpstrand
2009-08-07, 04:30 PM
Stealth-nerf? I discussed shapechange limitations several posts ago, long before updating the OP but I'll post them again;

Shapechange requires familiarity. Familiarity with a creature means having encountered it more than once. In order to encounter a creature more than once, it needs to be a non-unique encounter thus not a BBEG or other increased-CR encounter but a standard one. You cannot have encountered creatures of more than CR 20 in level 20 or before in standard encounters.

Hence you can't be familiar with them and hence you can't shapechange into them.

Yes, you did discuss that before. But when I specifically asked you if you were going to limit shapechange books to a smaller list than the character subset books you never said you were.

You then updated the origional post to say, "5) Available monsters are limited to SRD, draconomicon, libris mortis, lords of madness, tyrants of the 9 hells. You still need to make knowledge checks to know about a monster.
5a) The above is also a limitation for shapechange, summoning, calling and the like."

Without ever telling anyone about that restriction, and you even pretended you weren't making that restriction in your last post.

So next time someone says, "Are you limiting shapechange to books other than WotC printed books that are not campaign setting specific?"

Instead of answering "Shapechange will be limited to CR 20 or lower creatures" the correct answer is "Yes. You can't use MM II-V, Hordes of the Abyss, Frostburn, Sandstorm, or any other books that aren't ones I'm using monsters from."

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-07, 05:12 PM
Shapechange requires familiarity. Familiarity with a creature means having encountered it more than once.

Shall I write it into my backstory, then?

Talic
2009-08-07, 10:10 PM
That's not a Tank, that's a character. Rogues are too resilient to quickly drop and too dangerous to ignore. Wizards are too resilient to drop quickly and too dangerous to ignore. There is no tank, because that is not tanking, that is being a character and precisely my point. To be a Tank one must have some way of influencing enemies options such that other people can get away with weaker defenses. They can't.So, if I keep a balor from being able to close to melee with the rest of the party, because I keep it on lockdown with Stand Still, the party still needs to have incredibly high defenses versus Melee? Hm.


So If I make a level 20 character with AC 10 and saves of +2/+2/+2 and 50HP, I get to decide if that's a Tank? No. Being a Tank means meeting the qualifications for being a Tank, which is not something you can do in D&D.Perhaps it's not something you can do. But don't doubt it can be done. In a game where level 1 kobolds can become deities, by the rules, I find it hard to believe that "limiting an opponent's options" is not possible. Especially since I've done it.


No, I treated people like they were smart enough to know that any build that succeeded at meeting my objections is a valid build. Why you expected me to list every conceivable level 20 build or none is beyond me.
No, you're treating people like without you to guide them, they'll "make a level 20 character with AC 10 and saves of +2/+2/+2 and 50HP". It's obvious that a reasonable level of optimization is requested. I'm sure that Belial is more than competent to handle that without you being an armchair DM.


But if you do, you can't be a trip fighter because we are level 20, you have to be an Ubercharger or an Archer for massive damage.
And these? Not objections. These are ultimatums. This has nothing to do with saves, or HP. This is directly saying "you can't do this build". "You have to do this build."

{Scrubbed}
You were left free to design your druid to your taste, without outside demands or ultimatums.

Let others do the same. Trust that they're not retards that will build BAB 3 62 HP level 20's. I think they'll meet that. Believe me. Most of us here know how to build a character, really we do.