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View Full Version : [3.5] Feat: Theurgic Specialization (PEACH)



DragoonWraith
2009-07-30, 09:37 AM
Original version:
Theurgic Specialization

Requirements: Use of two different key Ability Modifiers for spell DCs, bonus spells per day, and maximum spell castable (or analogues in psionics, invocations, soul melding, or similar systems). They may come from the same class or from two different classes. At least one of these key Ability Modifiers must be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Benefit: You may change one of the key Ability Modifiers to match the other. It cannot be changed to any Ability Modifier for which you do not have an existing dependence. Which Ability Modifier to switch and which to match must be chosen when this feat is taken and cannot be changed. The resulting key Ability Modifier must be Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Normal: Different features require different Ability Modifiers.
Special: May be used when multiclassing to switch one class to match another, or may be used to allow classes that use different ability modifiers for bonus spells and DCs to use only one. If more than one class uses the same Ability Modifier, only one may be switched at a time. You can gain this feat multiple times. For each instance of this feat, you may switch one more key Ability Modifier.

If the Ability Modifier that is switched is for Manifesting, this counts as a [Psionic] feat. If the Ability Modifier switched is for Soul Melding, this counts as an [Incarnum] feat. So on and so forth, always based on the class that the key Ability Modifier for is being switched.


OK, so the idea is that a Wizard/Cleric can switch her Cleric casting to use Int instead of Wis, or a Incarnate could change the number of soulmelds he can use to be based on Wis instead of Con.

I'm not sure about the wording I've used, because it can affect different "systems" of "magic" - a Sorcerer/Psion could change his manifesting to use Charisma, for example. How does one refer to such things as a group?

There's also the issue of how most classes use a single ability modifier for DC, bonus slots, and maximum level allowed, but some use different abilities for different things. What I'm going for is that you should be able to change one of the ability dependencies of one of the classes that you have to match one of the other dependencies. I don't allow them to be changed to Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, because I figure that would be too powerful because the physical scores tend to do more for non-spellcasting issues than the mental scores do, and a Wizard with everything in Constitution would be a bit ridiculous.

So, have I got the wording to say what I want it to say, and is it balanced? Should it have more of a pre-requisite? Should it be for multiclassing only? Is it too much for a feat/not worth a feat?

It's my first time actually posting any homebrew in public, so let me know how I did.

Broken up into more manageable individual feats:

Studied Faith [Theurgic]
Requirements: Ability to cast Divine spells whose save DC is not based on Intelligence. Ability to cast spells or manifest powers whose save DC is based on Intelligence.
Benefit: The save DCs of your Divine spells are now based on your Intelligence. If your bonus Divine spells per day and/or highest Divine spell level available were based on the same ability score as their DC, they may also be switched to Intelligence.
Normal: Your Divine spellcasting is not based on Intelligence.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it is taken, you may switch another source of Divine spellcasting to use Intelligence.
Special: If you have the ability to manifest powers whose save DC is based on Intelligence, this feat counts as a [Psionic] feat.

Inspiring Conviction [Theurgic]
Requirements: Ability to cast Divine spells whose save DC is not based on Charisma. Ability to cast spells or manifest powers whose save DC is based on Charisma.
Benefit: The save DCs of your Divine spells are now based on your Charisma. If your bonus Divine spells per day and/or highest Divine spell level available were based on the same Ability score as their DC, they may also be switched to Charisma.
Normal: Your Divine spellcasting is not based on Charisma.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it is taken, you may switch another source of Divine spellcasting to use Charisma.
Special: If you have the ability to manifest powers whose save DC is based on Intelligence, this feat counts as a [Psionic] feat.

Prayer Arcana [Theurgic]
Requirements: Ability to cast Arcane spells whose save DC is not based on Wisdom. Ability to cast Divine spells whose save DC is based on Wisdom.
Benefit: The save DCs of your Arcane spells are now based on your Wisdom. If your bonus Arcane spells per day and/or highest Arcane spell level available were based on the same Ability score as their DC, they may also be switched to Wisdom.
Normal: Your Arcane spellcasting is not based on Wisdom.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it is taken, you may switch another source of Arcane spellcasting to use Wisdom.

Cerebral Faith [Theurgic] [Psionic]
Requirements: Ability to manifest powers whose save DC is not based on Wisdom. Ability to cast Divine spells whose DC is based on Wisdom.
Benefit: The save DCs of your Psionic powers are now based on your Wisdom. If your bonus Power Points per day and/or highest power level available were based on the same Ability score as their DC, they may also be switched to Wisdom.
Normal: Your Psionic manifesting is not based on Wisdom.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it is taken, you may switch another source of Psionic manifesting to use Wisdom.

Metapresence [Theurgic] [Psionic]
Requirements: Ability to manifest powers whose save DC is not based on Charisma. Ability to cast spells whose DC is based on Charisma.
Benefit: The save DCs of your Psionic powers are now based on your Charisma. If your bonus Power Points per day and/or highest power level available were based on the same Ability score as their DC, they may also be switched to Charisma.
Normal: Your Psionic manifesting is not based on Charisma.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Each time it is taken, you may switch another source of Psionic manifesting to use Charisma.

Variant Rules: Some DMs may want to make these kinds of abilities costlier. If this is desired, adding pre-requisite feats to each of these feats may work well: Studied Faith: Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)
Inspiring Conviction: Persuasive
Prayer Arcana: Skill Focus: Concentration
Cerebral Faith: Psionic Affinity
Metapresence: Open Minded

Kellus
2009-07-30, 09:40 PM
I think the requirements and effects need to be spelled out a little more clearly. Right now it's very open-ended and open to interpretation. Also, although the intent might be to facilitate multiclassing, it seems to also be available to a spellcaster like the favoured soul that relies on Wisdom for one aspect of spellcasting and Charisma for another.

When you get right down to it, "key ability modifier" might make sense to you, but it's not a term in the rules. You can say "ability used to determine maximum spells per day" and so forth, but you need to actually say what the ability is used for. Also, the "or similar systems" clause is tantalizingly vague. What about, say, a binder? Can he take it to augment his save DCs on his vestiges? What about a practictioner of blade magic from the Tome of Battle? Can a warblade use this to base everything off Charisma instead of Intelligence? And if he does, does that just apply to his maneuvers, or also to his class features keyed off of Intelligence?

Anyway, a neat idea, but remember that MAD is usually in place for a reason. Some classes rely on it to make sure that you can't just pump one ability to the exclusion of all else (ending up with a more balanced, more realistic, less lopsided character) and this feat seems to encourage that sort of play. :smallsmile:

DragoonWraith
2009-07-30, 11:28 PM
I think the requirements and effects need to be spelled out a little more clearly. Right now it's very open-ended and open to interpretation. Also, although the intent might be to facilitate multiclassing, it seems to also be available to a spellcaster like the favoured soul that relies on Wisdom for one aspect of spellcasting and Charisma for another.
Yeah, I realized the former - wasn't sure how best to handle it.

As for the latter, that was intentional as an option, though I wasn't certain if would be balanced to make it an option.


When you get right down to it, "key ability modifier" might make sense to you, but it's not a term in the rules. You can say "ability used to determine maximum spells per day" and so forth, but you need to actually say what the ability is used for. Also, the "or similar systems" clause is tantalizingly vague. What about, say, a binder? Can he take it to augment his save DCs on his vestiges? What about a practictioner of blade magic from the Tome of Battle? Can a warblade use this to base everything off Charisma instead of Intelligence? And if he does, does that just apply to his maneuvers, or also to his class features keyed off of Intelligence?
Hmm, I thought I'd seen that term used somewhere. *shrug* Anyway, Binder, I'd say the intent was yes, with Warblade... I'm not sure. Hmm.


Anyway, a neat idea, but remember that MAD is usually in place for a reason. Some classes rely on it to make sure that you can't just pump one ability to the exclusion of all else (ending up with a more balanced, more realistic, less lopsided character) and this feat seems to encourage that sort of play. :smallsmile:
Mm. Yeah, true. At the same time, it doesn't seem too extreme for a feat - in classes usually starved for feats - to help with some of this. Casters generally don't get a lot of feats, so playing with a Point Buy to avoid burning a feat on this may be nice.

OK, I think it would be much better to have a series of feats that allow more specific switches, rather than one feat designed to cover all of them, and to limit it specifically to multiclassing characters.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-31, 12:27 AM
Alright, created five feats that should be clearer/less openly worded. Also made each require a pre-req Feat; not sure if that's really necessary, but it's easy to remove if appropriate.

Gorgondantess
2009-07-31, 02:04 AM
Huh. Looks pretty good. Really, if someone wants to pump one ability, it's rather easy to do, as a psion/wizard, or sorceror/favored soul, or the like. However, for those of us who would like to be, say, cleric/wizards, it's a great feat, and the useless prereq balances it pretty nicely. I like it.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-31, 11:22 AM
I don't think there are any Charisma-based Divine or Psionic characters, so that's something new. Still, for two feats and giving up at least one spell level, that's hardly game-breaking.

dukexx
2009-07-31, 01:43 PM
The Favored Soul uses charisma as a divine caster, as does the Wilder for psionics, I believe.

AstralFire
2009-07-31, 01:47 PM
The Shugenja is all Charisma for Divine. Favored Soul uses Charisma for DCs, I think.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-31, 02:30 PM
I feel dumb for missing the Wilder. Haven't read the books with Favored Soul or Shugenja, though, so I feel less bad about that.

I assume both of you think the Feats look pretty good, then?

I'm not really sure the wasted pre-req is necessary. It's not like there aren't combinations that already solve these problems as it is (Archivist/Wizard, Psion/Wizard, Wilder/Sorcerer, Beguiler/Wizard - though that one isn't even covered), so it's more for the option of choosing a different class for flavor purposes. Further, Theurge classes are hardly overpowered as it is...

Gorgondantess
2009-07-31, 02:40 PM
Actually, beguiler/wizard is covered with Ultimate Magus. It's actually a really popular combo for that class.

AstralFire
2009-07-31, 02:46 PM
I wouldn't require the prereq feats either.

Kellus
2009-07-31, 04:03 PM
Much better. It looks really good! And I'm of two minds on the feats– on the one hand, they fit the idea and serve as a nice deterrent to somebody trying to pull off ridiculous min/maxing with these things... on the other hand, someone legitimately trying to make a decent multiclass caster sort of needs all the help they can get, and as you mentioned before, doesn't have a lot of feats to throw around. I guess I'd suggest removing them.

DragoonWraith
2009-07-31, 06:40 PM
Actually, beguiler/wizard is covered with Ultimate Magus. It's actually a really popular combo for that class.
No, I meant I didn't add any feat for that. So a Wizard/Sorcerer couldn't switch to be all-Int or all-Cha.


I wouldn't require the prereq feats either.

And I'm of two minds on the feats– on the one hand, they fit the idea and serve as a nice deterrent to somebody trying to pull off ridiculous min/maxing with these things... on the other hand, someone legitimately trying to make a decent multiclass caster sort of needs all the help they can get, and as you mentioned before, doesn't have a lot of feats to throw around. I guess I'd suggest removing them.
Yeah, I think they're unnecessary. I'll put a note as a kind of "variant rules" section if there's anyone interested in maybe adding a pre-req like that.


Much better. It looks really good!
Thanks!