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Fixer
2009-07-30, 10:33 AM
I am working on a character build and am trying to find the most efficient way to get an undead companion without taking specific class levels.

The reason I am not talking about class levels is because, as a necromancer 1, you can take the UA variant feature that gives you a skeleton friend instead of a familiar. That seems the easiest way but I am wondering if there is a way that uses feats available to a swordsage/rogue or swordsage/scout character.

*EDIT* Sorry, has to be allowed for good-aligned characters.
*EDIT Mark 2* Has to be able to handle negative energy in a positive fashion, as undead do for healing.

Jair Barik
2009-07-30, 10:40 AM
Undead leadership at lvl 6 seems the most obvious way

Longcat
2009-07-30, 10:41 AM
UMD with scrolls of Animate Dead.

Fixer
2009-07-30, 10:50 AM
Undead Leadership requires a non-good alignment. I didn't specify originally, but other aspects of the character require a good alignment so that part isn't allowed.

I have edited my original post.

Jalor
2009-07-30, 10:50 AM
Ordinary Leadership, grab a Necropolitan cohort.

Kylarra
2009-07-30, 10:51 AM
Leadership -> Necropolitan Necromancer Cohort -> ??? -> Profit?

Mewtarthio
2009-07-30, 11:22 AM
Undead Leadership requires a non-good alignment. I didn't specify originally, but other aspects of the character require a good alignment so that part isn't allowed.

Convince your DM to waive the alignment requirement, then take Undead Leadership.

Fixer
2009-07-30, 11:22 AM
Convince your DM to waive the alignment requirement, then take Undead Leadership.My GMs know me too well to let me do that. ;)

Jalor
2009-07-30, 11:24 AM
Again; there's nothing saying you can't take a Necropolitan with Leadership.

Jair Barik
2009-07-30, 11:31 AM
Most means of gaining an undead cohort etc. would be disallowed under your requirements. Animation spells are evil as are spells that summon dead. Generally if your playing good you should frown upon the undead.

You could however gain undead with a neutral cleric at lvl5 without using animate dead or "evil" spells/abilities but this is dubious and goes against the whole no specific class levels. If your curious though its cleric2/wizard1/Master of shrouds2

Norr
2009-07-30, 11:51 AM
A shadowdancer gains a shadow companion at level 3 (minimum character level 10). The shadow has the same alignment you do, immune to turning/rebuking and gains additional HD as you advance. If the SRD is correctly worded, it can be argued that the shsdow starts at 5 HD and advances up to 9 HD at shadowdancer level 9.

If this is of interest I do not know.

Fixer
2009-07-30, 12:15 PM
Well, you can do the same with Necromancer 1 UA Familiar replacement with undead for only a one-level dip (still being Good). Seeing as how no one can beat a one-level dip with any other class, I was hoping someone knew of a feat or alternate class ability that might grant one.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-07-30, 12:19 PM
Again; there's nothing saying you can't take a Necropolitan with Leadership.

Quoted because you seemed to miss it. This is, bar none, the fastest, most efficient way for you, as a good aligned Swordsage/Scout or Swordsage/Rogue, to get an undead companion.

VirOath
2009-07-30, 12:27 PM
Feat: Obtain Familiar
Feat: Stitched Flesh Familiar

Take a raven, get all the cool stuff like flight and speak, and the non-optimized stuff like bonuses to spot and search checks.

For extra cheese, get your new undead Spell Stitched. Just be sure to have strong wisdom boosters on your undead Raven, the Spell Stitched template checks for Wisdom at the time it is applied, not it's normal.

Though, some DMs might not rule as the way of the Tippyverse.

Fixer
2009-07-30, 12:45 PM
Quoted because you seemed to miss it. This is, bar none, the fastest, most efficient way for you, as a good aligned Swordsage/Scout or Swordsage/Rogue, to get an undead companion.No, I didn't miss it. I just read the description on Necropolitan and thought about the GM-input-required nature of Leadership and calculated the odds of anyone who would GM me to allow both combined to be very close to 0. I most certainly couldn't have the player advocate the option of their cohort becoming necropolitan, because the acts you have to perform are quite evil (torture, calling upon dark powers, etc.).

I generally have strict GMs.

Feat: Obtain Familiar
Feat: Stitched Flesh FamiliarRequires arcane spellcaster level 3rd. You can already get an undead companion at arcane caster 1, so why bother with two more levels?

VirOath
2009-07-30, 01:15 PM
Requires arcane spellcaster level 3rd. You can already get an undead companion at arcane caster 1, so why bother with two more levels?

Because it is a UA WIZARD alternative(One that isn't that great), my method allows you to use any arcane base class or PrC.

Hexblade, Spellthief, Suel Arcanamach, or any method of getting a single level of Arcane Casting accounted for and cheesing in with Practiced Spellcaster (It does say it increases your caster level, just not for spells per day or known.). It blows open builds with ways of getting a familiar and making it undead, instead of locking it to the Wizard Class and forcing you to give up the familiar.

After all, you said you didn't want a Wizard.


Edit:

Another way, Shape Soul Meld(Necrocarnum) from MotI. You take HP damage equal to the HD of the creatures, but you can get around that by using loads of Temp HP. The downside is supposed to be you can't heal it for as long as the Zombie is up, but with Temp HP you can't heal it anyways. So no loss.

Jair Barik
2009-07-30, 01:40 PM
Well fell animate would let you create undead with any caster and is allowed for good characters but you wouldn't be able to control them

Fixer
2009-07-30, 01:45 PM
Another way, Shape Soul Meld(Necrocarnum) from MotI. You take HP damage equal to the HD of the creatures, but you can get around that by using loads of Temp HP. The downside is supposed to be you can't heal it for as long as the Zombie is up, but with Temp HP you can't heal it anyways. So no loss.Two feats required: Shape Soulmeld (Necrocarnum Circlet) and Open Lesser Chakra (to bind to Crown).

Actually, that will work pretty well if my GM will allow it (as none of the feats require you be evil, but the use of Necrocarnum is pretty evil). Necrocarnum Zombies are naturally stealthy, and so is this character, so it will work well. Well, except the whole "the HD cannot exceed your meldshaper level" part. Being limited to 1/2 your character level in HD might be hard to find a corpse that low HD at higher levels.

Are there any reasonable LA+0 undead races out there?

Jair Barik
2009-07-30, 01:50 PM
Necropolitan count? If so thats alright

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 01:51 PM
Necropolitan is veering back into "My DM will never let me get this through" territory.

Draken
2009-07-30, 01:51 PM
Necropolitan.

See what your DM thinks of Corpse and bone, but the two are most likely +1 or +2.

Benejeseret
2009-07-30, 01:53 PM
1) I second the Animate Dead spell-triggers.

Scrolls if you think they'll last awhile or a wand / eternal wand for expendable ones. It's not like they'll have 'personality' other than RolePlay value anyway so their source hardly matters.

Really - Animate Dead as a spell completion (UMD) cost only (caster lvl)*3*25+(caster lvl*25) and you get HD worth 2xcaster level.

So to get a permanent 10HD Skelly it is a mere 5x3x25+(10x25) = 625g

625g!!!!





2) Buy a Flesh Golem - or a Flesh Golem Manual (8k) and get a wizard buddy to help finish making him if needed.


GOOD ALIGNED

Depending how you view it, an GOOD character should NOT be looking to hand around the Undead either way.



3) Might I suggest instead = Animate Object.

Nothing says you cannot get a Skeleton animated (object) if you reeeeaaally want to keep the creepy angle (without the EVIL).

To create a wondrous item with Continual-use it is x4 for rounds/level spell and a further x2 for non-slotted.

Small Object = 1x6x2000x4x2 = 96000g
Medium = 2x6x2000x4x2 = 192000g
Large = 4x6x2000x4x2 = 384000g
Huge = 8x6x2000x4x2 = 768000g
Gargantuan = 16x6x2000x4x2 = 1536000g

Since these prices are quite high you could always go with the Figurines of Wondrous Power for less.

Fixer
2009-07-30, 02:15 PM
Has to be able to positively handle negative energy (such as undead do for healing).

I will edit the first post to reflect this.

Woodsman
2009-07-30, 02:40 PM
Tomb-Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis) allows you to heal with negative energy, but you're damaged by positive energy.

But, sadly, alignment requirement.

arguskos
2009-07-30, 02:55 PM
I'm away from my books at the moment, but in Dragon Compendium, the Death Master class gets an undead companion at level one, and I believe only has the alignment restriction of non-good, so if you can deal with being neutral, that's an option.

Note: This is all from memory, so I could be wrong.

Benejeseret
2009-07-30, 04:11 PM
All Undead are prone to Rebuking - but the item I detail below can get around that in a way.


Since I have been pondering bought undead assistance I'll throw this out as well:

Using magic item creation rules for say a ring/helm. Similar to the shield ring fluff it as two rings magically linked and made of blank onyx, one for controller and one for the skeleton.

Market Cost = Caster level (1=2HD undead) x Spell level (3) x 2000g x 0.5 (because its duration is 24hrs+) + HDx25g



This means you can custom tailor the item/monster according to your level and budget.
This is one way to go if your DM argues that without caster levels you cannot control the undead (which is false - even a scroll brings the needed levels inherently so you can control just like it gives the necessary levels to increase a fireball etc.). The extra cost and the ring/helm provides user-activated perma-control.
As you level, you can spend some gold to upgrade the item for more HD. Thus it scales with you for only 1525g/HD of undead.
It does not stack with other uses of Animate Dead (ie. same pool of total controlled)
Anytime the Skelly/Zombie gets destroyed you can create a new one as a Standard Action (user activated)
Anytime the Skelly/Zombie gets Rebuked dismiss it as a free action and re-make with a standard action (ie. remove the ring and put it back on)


Now as an interesting exercise lets also add the basic Intelligent Item template for +1000g (plus 1.5x for extra enchant)

So could an intelligent Helm with Animating properties be placed on a Skeleton to animate and then Ego dominate the Skeleton thus granting you an intelligent undead skeleton cohort NPC?

VirOath
2009-07-30, 09:40 PM
Two feats required: Shape Soulmeld (Necrocarnum Circlet) and Open Lesser Chakra (to bind to Crown).

Actually, those don't have to be bound to a Chakra. From my understanding, Shape Soulmeld lets you make a single soulmeld and gain the base abilities of the soulmeld. Soulmelds can be further augmented by binding them to their slots, giving additional effects dependent on the spot you bind them too.

A good example is Shape Soulmeld(Strongheart Vest). Just having the feat lets you make and wear the Strongheart Vest. But, you can bind it to either the Heart or the Belt, one or the other gives different bonuses on top of the basic ability damage DR. But just the feat lets you get the ability damage DR.

Fixer
2009-07-31, 06:33 AM
Actually, those don't have to be bound to a Chakra. From my understanding, Shape Soulmeld lets you make a single soulmeld and gain the base abilities of the soulmeld. Soulmelds can be further augmented by binding them to their slots, giving additional effects dependent on the spot you bind them too.That particular soulmeld MUST be bound to the Crown Chakra in order to animate undead. Without being bound, it can only detect the presence and position of undead within 30 feet (unless you put essentia into it, which then also grants undead in that detection radius a turn resistance equal to essentia).

Unfortunately, I am restricted to a Good alignment. Not even Neutral is allowed in this exercise.

Gaiyamato
2009-07-31, 07:09 AM
Well fell animate would let you create undead with any caster and is allowed for good characters but you wouldn't be able to control them

Actually they are auto controlled as if you used the Animate Dead spell, though it isnt evil. But you would need to be able to actually cast the silly thing at +3 spell levels.
lol.

I think the level 1 Wizard dip is the best really.

Heh Level 6 Necromancer with a stiched flesh raven AND the skeleton warrior and Fell animate (thus a bunch of zombies).. all with lawful good alignment. Fun! :)

VirOath
2009-07-31, 02:49 PM
Oh, didn't know that, so that works then.

But the Uttercold Assault build for a wizard is good. Since you can pull it off with the Arcane Swordsage (I believe) as well, you can get alot of creation of undead. Make them mindless, and toss in Control undead.

A Good way of making and controlling undead.

LibraryOgre
2009-08-03, 11:19 PM
1st level.

Get a scroll of "Animate Dead" from an 8th level cleric. Have maximum ranks in UMD (4) and a +4 Charisma bonus. Pray you roll a 20.

You now can have up to a 16hd skeleton or zombie. It follows your commands.

Fixer
2009-08-04, 07:26 AM
I was hoping for something less chancy.

If you cast Animate Dead (which is an evil spell), you can't really control them though. Control is based on your caster level (not necessarily the scroll's caster level). As a Rogue/Swordsage he won't have a caster level. The GM might make him make constant UMD checks just to command the undead, to emulate the caster level necessary to command it.

Too risky.

Keshay
2009-08-04, 09:02 AM
If it has to be undead and you have to be good may be out of luck.
Good and Undead do not mix too well, espically not at low levels. Also, it appears that you're going ot be confined to Good-aligned characters. While (for whatever reason) your guy might be cool with playing with the vile abomination, your good-aligned party members are unlikely to be as open-minded.

Could you explain the motivation/rationale for this character concept? Are you looking to get Lichloved as soon as possible or something? I'm not sure if +1 Saves and Undead affinity are worth bumping uglies with undead. (Unless its that hot redhead vampiress from True Blood.)

Fixer
2009-08-04, 09:07 AM
Need a useful target for negative energy using Shadow Sun Ninja for healing.

Keshay
2009-08-04, 09:26 AM
Ok, that's the mechanic you're going for, now why would your good-aligned character be predisposed towards using an unnatural abomination for thier own goals with no regard for the dignity of the individual whose remains are animated in a greusome facimile of life?

There is a reason creating and controling undead is considered an evil act. It amounts to the rape of the animated invidual's remains/soul.

Fixer
2009-08-04, 09:31 AM
Hence why I was looking for a undead companion that didn't involve an evil act.

With the necromancer companion example, it seems like just assembling spare parts than tinkering with souls. No alignment restrictions or descriptors. It was the best one I found, under the circumstances.

It seems the most 'good' bet would be a follower with tomb-tainted soul, but those aren't easy to come by.

Benejeseret
2009-08-04, 12:54 PM
If you cast Animate Dead (which is an evil spell), you can't really control them though. Control is based on your caster level (not necessarily the scroll's caster level). As a Rogue/Swordsage he won't have a caster level. The GM might make him make constant UMD checks just to command the undead, to emulate the caster level necessary to command it.

If your DM pulls that on you, point out next time someone else (better yet, him) uses a Fireball Scroll when they actually have 0 caster levels and thus do 0d6 points of damage.

SRD

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands.

First line of the spell. Yes it then puts conditions on the HD per caster level, but they are not completely separate entity from the spell itself - the scroll grants the caster level of its creator for the purposes of the spell effects. So in this way it is as if it grants Enhancement Bonus [Caster Level] for the purpose of that spell and casting only.

If he UMD a second scroll of Animate Undead - only the highest [caster level] would work (no stacking) and the other skel would go free.

Benejeseret
2009-08-04, 01:07 PM
And to matter how you get an undead asset (feat/item/scroll/whatever), if they have the Undead Type they can, and likely will, be Turned/Rebuked.

Thus the entire build is risky either way, and you will always want some Scrolls of Control Undead for just that purpose no matter how you end up loosing control.

Fixer
2009-08-04, 01:19 PM
Actually, out of combat I was thinking along the lines of a tiny undead companion one could hide in a pocket/handy haversack. During out-of-combat healing the tiny undead comes out, gets used as a negative energy sink, then gets returned to the pocket/haversack.

So, I suppose a Swordsage (Unarmed Variant) 2/Sorcerer 1(taking Stitched Flesh Familiar as its 3rd level feat)/Swordsage 2/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/Swordsage X would work best.

Ok, thank you for your help.