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shadow_archmagi
2009-07-30, 02:58 PM
So, one thing I've noticed is this:

Wizards can have theoretically infinite spells if they can find the spells ingame.

This includes scrolls, spellbooks, etc.


The thing I'm wondering here is: Does your DM seriously just drop spells left and right? Scrolls are not something I generally put on my NPCs when I'm equipping them. What if you start the game at level 16? How many spells do you get to represent slaughtered wizards and looted scrolls?

Tell me, DMs of the playground, and players of the playground, how you/your DM handles things.

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 03:02 PM
I have not had an actual Wizard player in my games in ages. My last casters were:

Cloistered cleric (neutered of melee boosting spells)
Bard
Psychic Warrior
Bard
Unoptimized Caster-only Druid
Binder
Shadow Mage

My policy if such were to occur again, however, would be to sparingly allow it when the Wizard's been a good boy. People starting at high level get no bonus spells and I don't typically allow scrolls at all, along with giving half WBL to everyone across the board.

Douglas
2009-07-30, 03:03 PM
Count it as part of Wealth By Level. There are listed costs for acquiring spells to scribe, and for the scribing process itself, so it's really simple to just charge those costs for any spells beyond the free ones that the wizard wants. For ongoing campaigns rather than creating new characters already at high level, count any spellbooks or scrolls on defeated enemies as part of the loot value for those enemies, and allow wizards to purchase more at appropriate places.

PurinaDragonCho
2009-07-30, 03:05 PM
What if you start the game at level 16? How many spells do you get to represent slaughtered wizards and looted scrolls?

I recently made up a level 15 archivist for a game I was joining (for those who don't know, archivists prepare spells from a spell book, just like wizards). I had 150K gold starting wealth. I spent ~40K of that on scrolls of spells, the rest on other gear. And that was all of the spells I had except for the 2 per level I learned when I gained each level. Seems fair to me.

Talya
2009-07-30, 03:09 PM
Count it as part of Wealth By Level.

Indeed. The cost per spell is the cost of buying a scroll of that spell, listed in the SRD.

(No, you don't get to pay only the price that another wizard would charge for looking at his spellbook.)

shadow_archmagi
2009-07-30, 03:09 PM
Douglas, I have never seen this listing of prices you speak of.

Care to elaborate?

Gorbash
2009-07-30, 03:09 PM
So, one thing I've noticed is this:

Wizards can have theoretically infinite spells if they can find the spells ingame.

This includes scrolls, spellbooks, etc.


The thing I'm wondering here is: Does your DM seriously just drop spells left and right? Scrolls are not something I generally put on my NPCs when I'm equipping them. What if you start the game at level 16? How many spells do you get to represent slaughtered wizards and looted scrolls?

Tell me, DMs of the playground, and players of the playground, how you/your DM handles things.

My DM lets me copy spells from other Wizards' spellbooks as per PHB rules. The only spells not available to me are those that he thinks are overpowered. So far:

Howling Chain, Avasculate, Greater Fireburst, Assay Spell Resistance, Greater Mirror Image.

Can't remember the rest, but those aren't that important I guess. All other important wizard spells are allowed and available for purchase and they aren't counted into WBL. Although he counts True Resurrection cost into WBL, but that's another story...

erikun
2009-07-30, 03:19 PM
Divine casters literally have their entire spelllists at their fingertips every morning, so I don't see the big deal with giving arcane casters access to spells they can find. I mean, if there's a spell you don't want them having, just ban it - there's no sense in saying, "Sure, you could cast it, but you're never going to find a copy of it on a scroll."

Oh, the cost of scrolls is listed here. Most (some?) DMs require starting wizards to buy spells on scrolls beyond the first 2 per level.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#scrollMishaps
Just scroll down to the tables.

Douglas
2009-07-30, 03:20 PM
Douglas, I have never seen this listing of prices you speak of.

Care to elaborate?
Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) if you're doing it by scrolls, or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#addingSpellstoaWizardsSpellbook) if your DM allows copying directly from another wizard's spellbook as a method of spell acquisition during character creation. The important part in the latter link is "In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp."

That covers getting access to the spell, but you also have to pay for the writing materials, which costs 100 gp per page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#writingaNewSpellintoaSpellbook). Since spells take one page per spell level, that's really 100 gp per spell level, and that's in addition to the price for getting access to the spell in the first place.

RTGoodman
2009-07-30, 03:26 PM
"In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp."
[...]
Since spells take one page per spell level, that's really 100 gp per spell level,

Soo... wouldn't that just be 150gp per spell level, if you're buying it out of your starting WBL at higher levels? I think that's how I've always calculated it.

EDIT@V: Ah, yeah, nevermind. I just saw that the formula for pricing scrolls is actually 25 x spell level x caster level. I was forgetting the CL and thought it was based on the same kind of formula as copying.

Douglas
2009-07-30, 03:27 PM
Yes, if your DM allows that rather than requiring you to buy scrolls instead. Of course, there's the little exception for 1st level spells where the scroll is actually cheaper by 25 gp...

Kallisti
2009-07-30, 03:35 PM
If I were starting a game with wizards in it, I'd let them pay the scroll cost and scribing costs out of their standard starting money, and if there were another PC wizard, they could pay the costs to copy spells out of each other's spellbooks. If they gave me a really good backstory, I'd give them bonus spells.

Random832
2009-07-30, 03:38 PM
The problem with requiring scrolls is that it jacks up the cost for no reason for learning spells that have expensive material/XP components.

And anyway, the price for copying from another wizard's spellbook is listed for a reason. Why shouldn't this be allowed?

Anyway, here are the actual costs (assuming no extra-cost scrolls)

{table]SL|Min CL|Look cost|Scroll cost|Scribe Cost|Final L|Final S
0*|1|25|12.5|100|125|112.5
1*|1|50|25|100|150|125
2|3|100|150|200|300|350
3|5|150|375|300|450|675
4|7|200|700|400|600|1100
5|9|250|1125|500|750|1625
6|11|300|1650|600|900|2250
7|13|350|2275|700|1050|2975
8|15|400|3000|800|1200|3800
9|17|450|3825|900|1350|4725[/table]

Note that the scribing cost itself does apply to the free two spells they get at each new spell level, but the additional cost to acquire the spell (whichever method you use) does not.

*Your starting spellbook contains all PH 0-level spells and 3+IntB 1st-level spells for free.

____

Anyway, if you want to be mean (and balance the two pricing systems), enforce spellcraft checks (limit one per time putting ranks in spellcraft) to learn spells during character creation. If you buy the scroll, you don't have to pay the 50*SL cost again for each attempt, and you get to keep the scroll if you weren't successful.

And don't forget spellbooks - your starting spellbook has 100 pages, and already contains 19 0-level spells (less if you have barred schools) and 3+IntB 1st-level spells - that's only 78-IntB combined spell levels you can fit in the remaining space before having to shell out another 15gp.

----

I may run some simulations later to get a percent chance not to learn / average total cost if paying 50*SL gp per attempt, for each spell level / level combination (for a single-class wizard putting max ranks in spellcraft at every level), to use as a WBL to spells guideline.

PurinaDragonCho
2009-07-30, 04:18 PM
The problem with requiring scrolls is that it jacks up the cost for no reason for learning spells that have expensive material/XP components.

For that reason, I usually try to learn any of those spells when I level, and buy scrolls of spells that don't have those requirements.

Also, to avoid the costs of copying spells, I think Boccob's Blessed Book lets you get around that - although I'm not sure the price is worth it. I haven't really crunched the numbers.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 04:23 PM
Note that the scribing cost itself does apply to the free two spells they get at each new spell level

No, no it doesn't.


Note that a wizard does not have to pay these costs in time or gold for the spells she gains for free at each new level.

Tyrrell
2009-07-30, 04:24 PM
The thing I'm wondering here is: Does your DM seriously just drop spells left and right?

Yes, gaining the spellbook of just one wizard of your own level can dramatically increase your spell selection. Do your PC's never fight wizards?

Also the PHB does say that typicall costs are 50 gp per spell level to gain access to another wizard's book.

One of my most enjoyable games ever was with a party of 4 wizards, we copied from one another's books constantly.

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-07-30, 04:30 PM
Yes, gaining the spellbook of just one wizard of your own level can dramatically increase your spell selection. Do your PC's never fight wizards?

Also the PHB does say that typicall costs are 50 gp per spell level to gain access to another wizard's book.

One of my most enjoyable games ever was with a party of 4 wizards, we copied from one another's books constantly.

Hopefully collegiate wizard was available:smallbiggrin:

Random832
2009-07-30, 04:39 PM
No, no it doesn't.

Damn, and that was the one thing i didn't double- and triple-check, too.

Anyone else have an opinion on enforcing spellcraft checks?

HamHam
2009-07-30, 04:47 PM
Anyone else have an opinion on enforcing spellcraft checks?

You can take 10.

Random832
2009-07-30, 04:55 PM
You can take 10.

Then what's the point of having the check at all?

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-07-30, 04:58 PM
Why need to make a check is the important question.

Random832
2009-07-30, 04:59 PM
Why need to make a check is the important question.

To make learning spells when creating high-level characters more expensive without the completely ridiculous requirement to buy a scroll, since some people apparently feel SL*50 is too cheap.

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-07-30, 05:03 PM
But lets say I failed one check I lost half the spell known.
To me making a spellcraft check everytime I gain a level would be annoying.

Random832
2009-07-30, 05:05 PM
But lets say I failed one check I lost half the spell known.

Huh? Failing the check means you can't learn the spell in the first place until you level again. What does "lost half the spell known" mean?

HamHam
2009-07-30, 05:09 PM
Then what's the point of having the check at all?

So that you need to put ranks into spellcraft?

The fact of the matter is that unless you are scribing spells into your spellbook in the middle of combat, you can Take 10 on the check just like any other skill check.

Random832
2009-07-30, 05:14 PM
This is why the wizard class is unbalanced. It's clearly intended that you have to roll it, but no-one ever does (this is the first time I've even heard someone bother justifying it as taking 10)

AstralFire
2009-07-30, 05:15 PM
Please, let's not pick up that hot potato again right now.

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-07-30, 05:18 PM
I only assumed that every time wizards level up they needed to make a spellcraft everytime to learn a new spell as part of the two spells per level.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 06:27 PM
This is why the wizard class is unbalanced. It's clearly intended that you have to roll it, but no-one ever does (this is the first time I've even heard someone bother justifying it as taking 10)

You can take 10 on a skill check as long as you are not being distracted. Unless it specifically says you can't, then you can. That's how skills are intended to work.

Random832
2009-07-30, 06:34 PM
You can take 10 on a skill check as long as you are not being distracted. Unless it specifically says you can't, then you can. That's how skills are intended to work.

Right, but I strongly suspect this was intended to be one of those specific exceptions.

HamHam
2009-07-30, 06:36 PM
Right, but I strongly suspect this was intended to be one of those specific exceptions.

Well can you point to some errata, faq, or official ruling to back up this supposed intention?

Devils_Advocate
2009-07-31, 02:32 PM
Wizards can have theoretically infinite spells if they can find the spells ingame.
Finding an infinite number of spells would be quite a feat.

Meanwhile, Clerics and Druids know all of the spells on their spell lists automatically. (But Wizards are still MOAR BROKEN because their spells are ZOMG TEH UBAR, rite?)


How many spells do you get to represent slaughtered wizards and looted scrolls?
However many you buy with your starting wealth. Same as how many weapons you get to represent slaughtered fighters and looted swords. You can work your acquisition of your starting lewt into your backstory however you want.