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ChaosDefender24
2009-07-30, 07:07 PM
So, Eldariel in the tiers thread said that he "actually uses time stop for buffing" on some characters, then refers to some vague b0rked trick.

But I thought the point of Time Stop was to get lotsa rounds to buff. There's the old delayed blast fireball trick, forcecage, and lotsa gates, but what else could he be referring to?

Starbuck_II
2009-07-30, 07:16 PM
Linking to a thread helps us understand the context better.

He could be thinking of the Astral Projection, Gate Celestial Gold Dragons thingie, but that is another discussion I think.

holywhippet
2009-07-30, 07:17 PM
Well, you can affect items that aren't in anyone's possession. As such, you could move a boulder up above the head of an enemy.

Eldariel
2009-07-30, 07:20 PM
Eh, mostly one of three things:

-Death traps: get opponent under Anti-Magic/Dimensional Lock/Forced Manifest/Maw of Chaos/Walls of Force/etc. Basically, use the turns to generate an unescapable trap with some permanent damage effect that's going to eventually destroy your opponent (note that Quicken doubles the amount of stuff you can achieve in those turns). Since Time Stop allows no interaction, this is incredibly potent and annoying to deal with.

-Delayed effects: Delayed Blast Fireball is Core, but there's also metamagic called "Delay Spell" metamagic that allows for an awful lot of creativity as to what goes off when the Time Stop ends. If an offensive spell that kills your opponent with sufficient castings exists, this allows you to stack a sufficient number of them on him without a real chance for interaction, to see him go boom.

-Summoning: Gate in a bunch of higher-CR creatures, cast a ****ton of Summons or Shadow Conjurations mimicking whatever Summons/Creations (for the Shadowcraft Mages in there) and umm, watch opponent feebly try to ward off your celestial/infernal army. This is just pure action economy abuse and less of the "no interaction"-part.


But yeah, the biggest problem with Time Stop is, if it goes off you cannot really do anything to stop opponent from doing something very wrong and sick as normal anti-spell measures (many forms of countermagic, contingencies and such) simply don't work through Time Stop and the Time Stop-user can set in place effects that will nullify your normal defenses to the attacks he's using while also setting the attacks in place.

An MTG comparison would be e.g. Orim's Chant (mostly old Vintage-example here): It's a one-mana white instant that says "Opponent can't play spells this turn". Normally, you can use your countermagic and Chant-like effects of your own to stop opponent from doing anything broken - that's the whole foundation of the format (which allows all cards ever printed as at least 1-ofs even if they are brokenly powerful/mistakes, so the only way to make it "fair" is to make sure those cards don't resolve), and if Chant resolves (much like Time Stop), then you suddenly lose your ability to interact with the opponent - to counteract whatever insane crap he pulls off. The fact that Time Stop gives multiple turns of such time doesn't help at all.


I was talking about Temporal Acceleration, by the way; basically Psionic Time Stop with a bit different mechanics.

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 07:24 PM
Its actually much less of a problem at epic levels, because anyone with 21 ranks of spellcraft and caster level 12 (so any caster or any gish), can take spell stowaway timestop.

Note: If you dont have more than 12 caster levels by mid epic, you are going to lose anyway, timestop doesnt matter.

ChaosDefender24
2009-07-30, 07:24 PM
CHRONOTYRYN

you have pretty much changed the way i look at wizards, good sir!

quick_comment
2009-07-30, 07:26 PM
CHRONOTYRYN

you have pretty much changed the way i look at wizards, good sir!

Blasphemy! Chronotytrn do not exist.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-30, 09:02 PM
Blasphemy! Chronotytrn do not exist.

Oh yes they do. You just haven't seen them because they're constantly time-stopped. :smallbiggrin:

zarakstan
2009-07-30, 09:18 PM
My favorite thing to do involves casting maximized time stop zapping 9 quickened rays of disintegrate to make a huge hole right beneath the enemies feet and then wishing for a bout 2000 tons of stone to appear above their head :smalltongue:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-07-31, 12:29 AM
My favorite thing to do involves casting maximized time stop zapping 9 quickened rays of disintegrate to make a huge hole right beneath the enemies feet and then wishing for a bout 2000 tons of stone to appear above their head :smalltongue:

Isnt that...incredibly inefficent?

9 10th level spell slots, 9 swift actions in 5 rounds, 9th level spell slot, 5000 XP

All for middling damage compared to what you can do with Maw of Chaos.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-07-31, 01:19 AM
Its actually much less of a problem at epic levels, because anyone with 21 ranks of spellcraft and caster level 12 (so any caster or any gish), can take spell stowaway timestop.

Note: If you dont have more than 12 caster levels by mid epic, you are going to lose anyway, timestop doesnt matter.

Of course, when you Spell Stowaway Timestop, you effectively go mano-a-mano with the Epic Level Wizard... is that *really* something you want to do? Alone and without backup or support?

PId6
2009-07-31, 01:24 AM
Its actually much less of a problem at epic levels, because anyone with 21 ranks of spellcraft and caster level 12 (so any caster or any gish), can take spell stowaway timestop.

Note: If you dont have more than 12 caster levels by mid epic, you are going to lose anyway, timestop doesnt matter.
Doesn't it have to be a spell you can cast?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-07-31, 07:44 AM
Doesn't it have to be a spell you can cast?

As a matter of fact, yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#spellStowaway).

Frosty
2009-07-31, 02:12 PM
Of course, when you Spell Stowaway Timestop, you effectively go mano-a-mano with the Epic Level Wizard... is that *really* something you want to do? Alone and without backup or support?

If you're a Phane, yes.

quick_comment
2009-07-31, 02:17 PM
The most fun is had as an epic sorcerer with still and silent, epic counterspell and mastery of counterspelling and a high bluff check.

The enemy casts timestop, you use bluff to pretend to be frozen, then you counterspell everything back on them.

Philaenas
2009-07-31, 02:17 PM
And then you rolled a 1 on your timestop :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2009-07-31, 02:53 PM
The most fun is had as an epic sorcerer with still and silent, epic counterspell and mastery of counterspelling and a high bluff check.

The enemy casts timestop, you use bluff to pretend to be frozen, then you counterspell everything back on them.

That's brilliant.

Faleldir
2009-07-31, 04:04 PM
My favorite thing to do involves casting maximized time stop
Is that even possible? That's a 12th level spell slot!

AstralFire
2009-07-31, 04:06 PM
Sudden Maximize, Rods of Maximize, Incantatrix with no errata, Divine Metamagic if you got Time Stop with a domain... yeah, it's possible.

Curmudgeon
2009-07-31, 04:09 PM
Is that even possible? That's a 12th level spell slot! It's easy for a Cleric. It can be done a few different ways: with Maximize Spell and Divine Metamagic (Maximize Spell); or using Incense of Meditation at spell prep. Time Stop is offered by the Celerity, Planning, Time, and Trickery domains.

Frosty
2009-07-31, 04:10 PM
Can you counterspell things back at them if they don't target you with spells? Since the enemy believes he has successfully cast Time Stop, he would not target you anyways because normally he can't. Also, don't you KNOW when your spell has been countered?

Yuki Akuma
2009-07-31, 04:27 PM
You do not need to be anywhere near the target of a spell to counterspell it. You just need to be within range of the caster.

You don't specifically know your spell has been countered - you just know it didn't work.