How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

[Alex Warlorn]

How magic in this case can solve V's problem is simple: an atonement spell! It's very clear he regrets his choices done while having a maniac, a monster, and an evil overlord as his 'consciences' so he fits the criteria for the spell working on him.

It won't break his contract, but it will mean his spirit will no longer have a 50/50 shot of ending up in the underworld.

[Mystic Muse]

I don't think the good gods would be willing to let V's sins go THAT easily.

plus Tiamat might have some say in it.

[arguskos]

Actually, I think this would be a clever way to show that there's a time and place for everything. Atonement would make perfect sense here, though I doubt V would know about it, given the dislike shown towards divine magic.

Good catch. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

Now how long is it going to be before someone suggests that someone will cast Atonement on Belkar and change him to Lawful Good? :smalltongue:

[Thanatosia]

Until they come up with an Arcane version of Atonement, I doubt V would be interested.

[Alex Warlorn]

Now how long is it going to be before someone suggests that someone will cast Atonement on Belkar and change him to Lawful Good? :smalltongue:

Belkar isn't sorry IN THE LEAST for ANY of the death he's caused and spread be they innocence or otherwise (at least for any reason even remotely related to being the wrong thing to have done), the Atonement spell wouldn't work on him.

[Sanguine]

Belkar isn't sorry IN THE LEAST for ANY of the death he's caused and spread be they innocence or otherwise (at least for any reason even remotely related to being the wrong thing to have done), the Atonement spell wouldn't work on him.

Sanctify The Wicked would though.(Of course that's not core...)

[David Argall]

I suspect V regrets what she failed to do, not what he did.

[Jackson]

Well, except for the fact that she uses the term 'all that I have done' when discussing what she doesn't want to be reminded of, rather than anything that indicates regret exclusively for what she didn't pull off, I might agree with you. But since V said what she did, I'd have to say you're ignoring in comic evidence.

I always thought Atonement was a weird thing to have as a spell.

[Ridureyu]

V can solve all of the Order's Problems right now with a well-placed Locate City Bomb.

[MickJay]

I always thought Atonement was a weird thing to have as a spell.

It's there to "fix" the weird alignment rules. :smalltongue:

[Totally Guy]

When my old cleric adventured with an evil party member he'd prepare atonement every day. Well he was going to...

I was using cards to represent the spells I had. And I made this massive oversized card for atonement so I'd be able to hold it up for all to see.

Then the night after I got the spell the DM said to the evil character "you're neutral now" and he said "ok".

And I'd designed and printed this totally amazing "Atonement" card just for that.

[NerfTW]

That's all well and good, but how will the atonement spell affect the fact that her mate hates her, she committed genocide, and has to hide her deal from her team mates?

V could care less about the gods and the evilness of her actions, it's the fact that those closest to her hate her and she knows the contract will come up at the worst possible time.

[pendell]

Well .. in the mythos I am most familiar with, a contract of this sort can't simply be broken or annulled. It must either be paid in full, or somebody else steps in and pays the price on V's behalf.

Remember Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe? Edmund put himself in the witch's power, and Aslan had to pay a steep price to rescue him. He couldn't just wave the contract away. Lawful good, after all. He had to pay the price in Edmund's place.

Anyways, that's how I'd get out of this sort of contract in Narnia.

What about OOTS verse? The rules are different here. Could a team-mate offer to pay the price in V's place? Could an outsider? Would an outsider do such a thing? Could they force the fiends to take the substitute unwillingly?

Or another possibility: Can V kill hirself and force the fiends to take back their time at a time and place of hir choosing, rather than their's?

If the fiends won't take hir soul .. if V's not lawful, could V hide out in the elven gods' afterlife, and good luck to the fiends in getting their payment from the elven gods?

Other possibilities?

Any possiblity of solving this problem seems to revolve around fundamental axiom: V has to admit ze's out of hir depth and get help from someone who can do so. That's a very hard thing for V to do.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[MoonBeam]

If the fiends won't take hir soul .. if V's not lawful, could V hide out in the elven gods' afterlife, and good luck to the fiends in getting their payment from the elven gods?

There is no reference of IFCC being lawful. We do not know their alignment(s). As they represent all evil alignments (LE - Devils, NE - Yugoloths, CE - demons) each of them is most probably one of these alignments (see one of many threads dealing with this topic).

As for Elven Gods, we have seen none in the Stickverse. Most of them are CG in Forgotten Realms and V is certainly not, therefore I highly doubt in your prediction.

[Optimystik]

It's there to "fix" the weird alignment rules. :smalltongue:

Not quite. You're actually free to change your character's alignment at any time; Atonement just offers you a believable way of doing so. Similarly, if a deity wanted they could reinstate their relationship with you (and thus your divine powers) even if you can't find a cleric to mediate.

Atonement is a roleplay spell, like Prestidigitation. It provides an in-universe way of pulling a heel face turn without having to deal with excess skepticism from your new allies.

In V's case, Atonement saves you from permanent perdition; however, the fact that his soul occupancy contract is temporary may be a double-edged sword; He won't belong to the fiends forever, but at the same time he has no way out of the contract until it is fulfilled.

[spargel]

I don't think V cares much about that one evil act she did while in the Soul Splice.

[Forbiddenwar]

V can solve all of the Order's Problems right now with a well-placed Locate City Bomb.

A) OOTS/=D&D
B) doesn't work in D&D anyway
C) Way off topic on atonement spell use, no?

[hamishspence]

Not quite. You're actually free to change your character's alignment at any time; Atonement just offers you a believable way of doing so. Similarly, if a deity wanted they could reinstate their relationship with you (and thus your divine powers) even if you can't find a cleric to mediate.

True up to a point. However, there is that bit in DMG "My character is Chaotic Good." "Prove it."

So, in a sense, the player needs to show that the character's outlook has changed. While acts are important, it is possible (though rare) for a character to have a major epiphany. However, the DM does need to see the epiphany.

[Kish]

I don't think V cares much about that one evil act she did while in the Soul Splice.
"Please, do not remind me of all that I have done. I don't actually care much about it, I'd just rather not be reminded of it for no particular reason."

If you're right, then Vaarsuvius is going straight to a lower plane upon death, you do realize.

[hamishspence]

There is the possibility (however remote) that V is thinking entirely about the debt that the fiends will call in, and the clumsiness of the tactics used by V against Xykon, when V speaks of wanting to be reminded of acts.

We'll have to wait and see if V actually has a "guilty conscience" rather than just being embarrassed at own ineptitude, and if so, whether guilt solely concerns fiends, or other things.

[Pandora]

I think that V losing was probably one of the best things s/he has ever done. It made her realize that s/he needed to shut up, smell the coffee, and stop being a power freak.

[spargel]

"Please, do not remind me of all that I have done. I don't actually care much about it, I'd just rather not be reminded of it for no particular reason."

If you're right, then Vaarsuvius is going straight to a lower plane upon death, you do realize.

There are other things V did in that soul splice that he would want to forget about, and his speech to Durkon was about how he failed to use that power to its full potential instead of his morality.

[slayerx]

I don't think the good gods would be willing to let V's sins go THAT easily.

Now what makes you say it would be easy... Atonement generally comes along with a quest to prove yourself worthy of such redemption... In V's case, this would likely end up being one hell of a quest that's anything but easy

[Optimystik]

There are other things V did in that soul splice that he would want to forget about, and his speech to Durkon was about how he failed to use that power to its full potential instead of his morality.

Yes, but "please do not remind me of all that I have done" is inclusive, not exclusive. In other words, to O-Chul he was specifically referring to things he did that he regrets, not things that he failed to do. Otherwise he would have said "I did not do nearly enough" or similar. His statement instead implies that he did too much, and the only context in which that could be true is a moral one.

[spargel]

Yes, but "please do not remind me of all that I have done" is inclusive, not exclusive. In other words, to O-Chul he was specifically referring to things he did that he regrets, not things that he failed to do. Otherwise he would have said "I did not do nearly enough" or similar. His statement instead implies that he did too much, and the only context in which that could be true is a moral one.

He could also be referring to leaving his own family and selling his soul.

It really depends on how much V's morals have changed in the recent strips.

[Kilremgor]

If V would like to atone for what he has done, probably this might work.

Cast Contingency on himself: 'when my soul or body is about to be overtaken by any external force, cast Phantasmal Killer on myself before it happens.'
Then, when IFCC tries to do so, voluntarily fail Will and Fortitude saves. Die. Serve the sentence in the hells, but save the Order from whatever plans and actions IFCC was about to accomplish.

After all, the chances of V's body surviving the fiends' control are close to zero. Either he can get killed by attacking Order or Xykon, or unmade by Snarl, or forced to commit suicide when time is running out - all while accomplishing whatever plans fiends have. So killing himself at the right time may be the best decision preventing worser outcomes.

After all, Raise Dead is around.

[Ceryan]

I suspect V regrets what she failed to do, not what he did.

Comic #671

O'chul: "Thank you once more for all that you have done."
V: "Please do not remind me of all I have done."

V's no longer blinded by arrogance; hir regrets all that hir did.

[ericgrau]

Asking Durkon for an atonement would involve revealing the reason for the need for an atonement. Or at the very least that one is required. She'd need to sneak to another cleric unnoticed, which might lead to confessional humor.

[Herald Alberich]

After V returned with O-Chul, I was rather hoping he'd confess all, beg for forgiveness, and humbly ask Durkon for an Atonement to seal the deal, but I guess that's a bit too much to expect of him at this point. If matters come to a head later on - if, oh, say, there is a detour into the Elven Lands and V is confronted by Kyrie, the truth may emerge at that time and the Atonement could happen. Quite aside from the saving-his-soul thing, I think V would be put much at ease by the spell, as a way to cap off his character development.

[spectralphoenix]

Personally I'm pretty skeptical over whether an Atonement would actually do anything in this case. V's alignment doesn't seem to be the issue here (at the very least, his neutrality is reasserting itself, he might be headed towards Good depending on the scale of his epiphany) and he doesn't have paladinhood or clerical spellcasting to restore. The spell doesn't break fiendish contracts or remove stuff from V's "permanent file."

Additionally, I don't think the 50/50 chance referred to applies anymore - That was what the fiend guesstimated after the fight, but it was probably based on the idea that V had an even chance of becoming and staying evil instead of reforming and having the single black mark on his record.

[Teddy]

After V returned with O-Chul, I was rather hoping he'd confess all, beg for forgiveness, and humbly ask Durkon for an Atonement to seal the deal, but I guess that's a bit too much to expect of him at this point. If matters come to a head later on - if, oh, say, there is a detour into the Elven Lands and V is confronted by Kyrie, the truth may emerge at that time and the Atonement could happen. Quite aside from the saving-his-soul thing, I think V would be put much at ease by the spell, as a way to cap off his character development.

I don't think that V would ask Durkon for an atonement untill V was sure about that noone else heard. It could also go on with V trying to forget the entire deal and the whereabouts just to be reminded by it in a very inconvenient way at a very inconvenient time (like your spoiler), thus learning that forgetting isn't the right way and that telling the truth about your errors to your teammates might lead to harsh reactions, but it will work out better in the end.

[veti]

That's all well and good, but how will the atonement spell affect the fact that her mate hates her, she committed genocide, and has to hide her deal from her team mates?

V could care less about the gods and the evilness of her actions, it's the fact that those closest to her hate her and she knows the contract will come up at the worst possible time.

First, her team mates don't hate her. We've seen Durkon go out of his way to make up with her, and Elan isn't the sort to hold a grudge. Moreover, she has enormous credit from the Azurites for helping them out, and credit for bringing O-Chul back safely.

Second, she doesn't know that the contract will come up at the worst possible time. She's consistently shown herself to be the most genre-blind of the whole Order. Everything she's said on the subject suggests she's assuming, as I would at first, that the contract kicks in when she dies and not before.

She doesn't care about the gods, no, but she has a strong sense of morality and she does regret her actions. She's said so to both Durkon and O-Chul now; she didn't need to do that, but she did it anyway.

[Mugen Nightgale]

My dramatic senses tell me that when a character says that he is tired and feeling bad(foolish) with his actions then changes its looks to a more delicate and less serious look (IMO) it means he is in for some big changes in his behavior through a long long guilt trip then glorious return. In that case I think that V is going to be a better companion and care about others. And maybe work on his magic addiction try not to depend so much of it.

I mean Xyckon threw V's lack of "true power" on hir face. I don't think that his awesome speech about power was for nothing.


But again, that's just my opinion.