How Could Super V Have Beaten Xykon?

[Lysander]

Assuming she/him hadn't been using epic soul splice magic like a cudgel, what intelligent strategy could have been used to destroy Xykon?

Personally, I'd probably summon a few horrendous monsters as bodyguards and teleport in with them.

[Snake-Aes]

Assuming she/him hadn't been using epic soul splice magic like a cudgel, what intelligent strategy could have been used to destroy Xykon?

Personally, I'd probably summon a few horrendous monsters as bodyguards and teleport in with them.

pre-teleport he could have cast Protection from Energy(or it's higher level equivalents that I don't remember), and maybe summon a few monsters. If V had successfully cast that time stop, she could have spammed some delayed fireballs. Three or Four and Xykon would be under half hp. Follow with an empowered sunburst the next round and he's a goner.

[Optimystik]

That depends on a couple of things, like what epic spell(s) Jephthon had. A few more of those Empowered Sunbursts could have done the trick though.

And while he couldn't duplicate NEP thanks to the non-compete clause, there's always Spell Turning to keep the Energy Drains away. Of course, they would give Xykon temporary hit points, but its better than losing spell slots.

[Jackson]

I'd like to add: by shutting up. How much did she hurt herself by talking in that fight?

[nysisobli]

simple, v could have lifted hir robes up, thats horrible enough right there to defeat any lich no matter how powerful.

[BatRobin]

Time Stop if s/he had it pre-splice, then some Delayed Fireballs like someone said, and Empowered Sunburst. If he wasn't 'dead' by then, Disintegrate or another Time Stop-Delayed Fireball combo.

[Menas]

In addition to what was already said, V. could have rested and regained all of his spells prior to teleporting. Yes, that would have meant he would have owed a lot of time to the fiends. But if the goal was to beat Xykon at any cost - that would have done it. It wouldn't have even mattered if his first time stop had been interrupted at that point - he would have had more prepared.

But even without resting I believe summoning would have made the difference. Especially since one of the splices remaining was a summoner.

[Ancalagon]

NOT teleporting to Xykon into the throne room but to... some secluded place in the cloister, THEN find out how Xykon is protected before assaulting him - with lots and more buffs cast and creatures summoned.

Blasting Redcloak as "supporter" first would also have helped.

[Optimystik]

pre-teleport he could have cast Protection from Energy(or it's higher level equivalents that I don't remember), and maybe summon a few monsters. If V had successfully cast that time stop, she could have spammed some delayed fireballs. Three or Four and Xykon would be under half hp. Follow with an empowered sunburst the next round and he's a goner.


Time Stop if s/he had it pre-splice, then some Delayed Fireballs like someone said, and Empowered Sunburst. If he wasn't 'dead' by then, Disintegrate or another Time Stop-Delayed Fireball combo.

Xykon was fire immune for that entire battle, so these wouldn't have worked.

[Snake-Aes]

Xykon was fire immune for that entire battle, so these wouldn't have worked.

Ah yes, he was immune. It'd eliminate rc and the mook at least. I don't think there was much to do within timestop that wasn't usable pre-teleport, though. super V did have the firepower, so a couple sunbursts would indeed eat him.
Damn liches and their immunities, wtb anti-undead mind fog.

[grolim]

6 words: Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html

[NerfTW]

In addition to what was already said, V. could have rested and regained all of his spells prior to teleporting. Yes, that would have meant he would have owed a lot of time to the fiends. But if the goal was to beat Xykon at any cost - that would have done it. It wouldn't have even mattered if his first time stop had been interrupted at that point - he would have had more prepared.

But even without resting I believe summoning would have made the difference. Especially since one of the splices remaining was a summoner.

Spell slots weren't the issue. Jepthon's sorcerer abilities allowed V to cast any of her spells as many times as she wanted. He could have cast Time Stop again, but he was being attacked and couldn't.

[Jackson]

Spell slots weren't the issue. Jepthon's sorcerer abilities allowed V to cast any of her spells as many times as she wanted. He could have cast Time Stop again, but he was being attacked and couldn't.
Jepthon's sorceror abilities only applied to his spells. Time Stop was Ganonron's spell.

[Snake-Aes]

Spell slots weren't the issue. Jepthon's sorcerer abilities allowed V to cast any of her spells as many times as she wanted. He could have cast Time Stop again, but he was being attacked and couldn't.

No. The soul splice basically meant V had access to three different classes' spellcasting. Each list prepared as if it was alone, and could be used only on that manner. Metamagic from Haera's couldn't be used with jepht's spells, for example.

[NerfTW]

Um, no, it was pretty clear that the ENTIRE POINT of Jepthon was that it allowed instant access to all spells without preparing them. Otherwise, what on earth was the purpose of even including him in the soul splice? They were designed to cover the V's limitations. Her two barred schools, plus the need to prepare a specific list of spells. Jepthon's ONLY ADDITION to this group was that he can cast any spell he knows, which logically applies to the entire group.

Otherwise, he was just "random funny Jepthon!" and served no purpose whatsoever in the plot.

Furthermore, where is proof that it only applied to him?

[Optimystik]

Damn liches and their immunities, wtb anti-undead mind fog.

Liches aren't normally fire-immune; it was Xykon that cooked up that particular complication, according to him. (Incidentally, the requirements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#forgeEpicRing) to do so would put him at a minimum of level 32!)

As for anti-undead mind fog, there are ways to reduce undead saving throws, but typically they're divine. (In his dismissal of divine magic, V doesn't seem to have remembered that little detail.)

[Snake-Aes]

Liches aren't normally fire-immune; it was Xykon that cooked up that particular complication, according to him. (Incidentally, the requirements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#forgeEpicRing) to do so would put him at a minimum of level 32!)

As for anti-undead mind fog, there are ways to reduce undead saving throws, but typically they're divine. (In his dismissal of divine magic, V doesn't seem to have remembered that little detail.)I never said he was fire immune because he was a lich. I had mind-affecting spells in mind then.

Um, no, it was pretty clear that the ENTIRE POINT of Jepthon was that it allowed instant access to all spells without preparing them. Otherwise, what on earth was the purpose of even including him in the soul splice? They were designed to cover the V's limitations. Her two barred schools, plus the need to prepare a specific list of spells. Jepthon's ONLY ADDITION to this group was that he can cast any spell he knows, which logically applies to the entire group.

Otherwise, he was just "random funny Jepthon!" and served no purpose whatsoever in the plot.

Furthermore, where is proof that it only applied to him?
Uhh he has his own spell list.
Haerta had one spell list
Jephton had another
Gannoron had another

V could cast spells from either, using all the spellcasting prowess their owners had, but they didn't interact directly with each other.

As for proof that these spells didn't interact directly: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html
Check the souls' chat.

[Zanaril]

Otherwise, he was just "random funny Jepthon!" and served no purpose whatsoever in the plot.

He and his wacky beard will always have a place in my heart. Right next to VaarsuviusXBelkar shipping.

[73 Bits of Lint]

I'd like to add: by shutting up. How much did she hurt herself by talking in that fight?
Talking is a free action.

V's best bet would have been to have a little patience, after ten minutes of waiting she could have gone in with the entire Order at her back and maybe a few Paladins (depending on how high a level whoever had Greater Teleport was). Even if she absolutely had to "go it alone," running through the full list of buffs she had available (as opposed to going in naked) would have increased her odds substantially.

[Kish]

For the record, Vaarsuvius didn't go in unbuffed, or there wouldn't have been much for Xykon to dispel. S/he went in still with most or all of the buffs from his/her fight with the ancient black dragon running.

[Snake-Aes]

Talking is a free action.
Xykon didn't get serious until V made him know that their fight was a measure of power.

[Snake-Aes]

For the record, Vaarsuvius didn't go in unbuffed, or there wouldn't have been much for Xykon to dispel. S/he went in still with most or all of the buffs from his/her fight with the ancient black dragon running.

Protection from Energy would have helped V enormously on pulling that time stop. That's already one buff he should have casted and didn't, specially knowing it was a sorcerer.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Um, no, it was pretty clear that the ENTIRE POINT of Jepthon was that it allowed instant access to all spells without preparing them. Otherwise, what on earth was the purpose of even including him in the soul splice? They were designed to cover the V's limitations. Her two barred schools, plus the need to prepare a specific list of spells. Jepthon's ONLY ADDITION to this group was that he can cast any spell he knows, which logically applies to the entire group.

Otherwise, he was just "random funny Jepthon!" and served no purpose whatsoever in the plot.

Furthermore, where is proof that it only applied to him?
Jepthon had epic magic of some kind (though I guess it could have been something completely useless). Besides, as an epic sorcerer he would have given a substantial number of spontaneous casting per day to V, greatly increasing her versatility and endurance, if not providing that much absolute power.

[factotum]

Well, the most obvious way V could have won is by casting the Time Stop *before* teleporting in. The real question is, would Xykon's trap still have gone off if V was casting spells while under the influence of Time Stop? If not, he could have laid down a fair bit of damage even before getting zapped.

[Lysander]

It's not that I think V's moves during the battle were dumb (mostly). Time Stop was the best possible opener. There was just no planning for contingencies and excessive risk taking.

How about this:

Step 1: Summon up a legion of monsters
Step 2: Shapechange into a hobgoblin
Step 3: Teleport with all the monsters into Azure City (not the tower) and have them start tearing up hobgoblins
Step 4: Xykon + minions come to investigate and start fighting the monsters
Step 5: Cast Timestop
Step 6: Kill Redcloak and Tsukiko with delayed blast fireballs. Timestop ends.
Step 7: While Xykon is wondering what the hell killed his underlings, and still thinks you're just a random orange minion, use an Epic attack spell (or your most powerful attack spell) along with quickened dimensional anchor.
Step 8: Cast Mislead
Step: 9: After Xykon attacks your illusion, use your most powerful attack spell along with a quickened attack. Repeat as necessary. Kill him.
Step 10: Destroy the phylactery.
Step 11: Assume leadership of the hobgoblins (since you've killed their leader) and order them to leave Azure City, and await further orders from their new Kingueen
Step 12: Teleport back to OOTS with Xykon's skull for chamberpot use

[wootage]

For the record, Vaarsuvius didn't go in unbuffed, or there wouldn't have been much for Xykon to dispel. S/he went in still with most or all of the buffs from his/her fight with the ancient black dragon running.

I wondered about that. Why didn't V use Dispel as soon as possible in the fight? Flying Buffed Xykon is a lot more dangerous to Flying V than Walking Unbuffed Xykon (due to Paralyzing Touch).

[Souhiro]

Step 1: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon Philactery gets dissintegrated right now.
Step 2: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon and all his allies which are near him, from this moment to the rest of eternity, won't be able to cast any magic, ever.
Step 3: Epic Teleport
Step 4: Splatterhouse.

[rewinn]

It's not that I think V's moves during the battle were dumb (mostly). Time Stop was the best possible opener. There was just no planning for contingencies and excessive risk taking.

How about this:

Step 1: Summon up a legion of monsters
Step 2: Shapechange into a hobgoblin
While I agree that summoning or otherwise recruiting a legion of helpers (certainly OOTS at the very least) would be a great plan, I suspect that the "turbulence" V encountered teleporting into the cloister would've been a problem. The Cloister is supposed to keep people OUT, otherwise the Elves would've smashed X long ago.

I love the idea of shapechanging into a hobgoblin though. Then V could just wander into X's presence humbly and hand X a scroll with something written on it.

[[TS] Shadow]

Step 1: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon Philactery gets dissintegrated right now.
Step 2: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon and all his allies which are near him, from this moment to the rest of eternity, won't be able to cast any magic, ever.
Step 3: Epic Teleport
Step 4: Splatterhouse.

Doesn't Wish have a fairly large XP penalty? I'm not sure that the souls would have complied if it did.

[Jackson]

Um, no, it was pretty clear that the ENTIRE POINT of Jepthon was that it allowed instant access to all spells without preparing them.
I thought that this was the point of Jepthon at first as well, but the dialogue in #652, as already pointed out, indicates that this was not the case. Because Time Stop is Ganonron's spell, Jepthon's sorcerer abilities don't apply to it. So, yes, he was arguably useless (it's really hard to know, since we don't know what actually was on his spell list).


Talking is a free action.
True. But so is listening. V gave away the existence of the Soul Splice, which led Xykon to adapt his tactics towards the splices, and then lets it slip that this whole thing is a challenge to Xykon's rep, which 'needs to be met with all the powers at [his] disposal.' So while it's 'free' in terms of not taking up an action in turn-based combat, it's not 'free' in terms of 'without cost or consequence.'

So, in V's case, talking is not a free action (in the past, it's even taken up a round).

[Meg]

I maintain there was no way in hell V could have beaten Xykon ever. This is mostly because of my strict adherence to the demands of the plot. V could have spent years planning, and Xykon would still have somehow managed to beat him because of some infinitesimal thing she never thought of.

It's like in Start of Darkness where Xykon was never in danger from Right-Eye's attack, he had purchased an item that made him immune to that type of attack months ago.


I'm no fun on these boards, am I?

[Snake-Aes]

I maintain there was no way in hell V could have beaten Xykon ever. This is mostly because of my strict adherence to the demands of the plot. V could have spent years planning, and Xykon would still have somehow managed to beat him because of some infinitesimal thing she never thought of.

It's like in Start of Darkness where Xykon was never in danger from Right-Eye's attack, he had purchased an item that made him immune to that type of attack months ago.


I'm no fun on these boards, am I?

That's the thing. V HAD the firepower to take him down if he was smarter about it.

[Carnivorous M.]

I'm with CheeseMuncher on this one. To quote Roy, "Stupid railroad plot!"

[Turkish Delight]

Acting as if OotS is not a plot-determined universe and V wasn't doomed from the start, I see two simple ways V could have won that don't involve me reading 3.5 edition rulebooks:

1) Thinking of the whole 'attack Xykon' thing before s/he lost Haera probably would have done the trick. Perhaps if V's mate had been a little less terrified out of hir mind, resulting in V making hir Will save, V would have gone into battle with the force of three epic spellcasters instead of two. Might have been enough to turn the tide.

2) Having the patience to wait for the resurrection to finish and then telling the rest of the Order the plan so they could all get ready to teleport in and take him out. Xykon may have won against V alone, but how well would he have done with Roy, Durkon, Haley, Belkar and Elan wacking away at Tsukiko and Redcloak? Not to mention that would've been the perfect time for O-chul to break free and start helping in wreaking havoc. It also would have suited the dramatic need for a cheesy Battle Royale and therefore offered some amount of appropriate trope appeasement to the Gods of Railroad Plotting.

[ericgrau]

Step 1: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon Philactery gets dissintegrated right now.
Step 2: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon and all his allies which are near him, from this moment to the rest of eternity, won't be able to cast any magic, ever.
Step 3: Epic Teleport
Step 4: Splatterhouse.

Wishing for something beyond the power of a wish is a valid target for distorting or limiting the results. Unlike the SMBG that do this to just any old wish.

Step 1: A disintegrate would hit the phylactery and fail to destroy it, except the wish spell fails to even locate the phylactery.

Step 2: Nothing seems to happen. Weeks later, a cast-metal word "magic" for a phrase on some statue cracks in half upon quenching. Repeated attempts also fail to produce the word in one piece, until a remove curse spell is used.

Step 3: See comic, except with less high level spells.

Step 4: Indeed.

[Nerocite]

"Every battle is won before it is ever fought."

Fate overrules all.

[Cracklord]

Well, had V gotten O-Chul out a bit earlier, perhaps he could have done something...

Yes I have no respect for magic.

[Deliverance]

Liches aren't normally fire-immune; it was Xykon that cooked up that particular complication, according to him. (Incidentally, the requirements (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#forgeEpicRing) to do so would put him at a minimum of level 32!)

That's if we assume he's telling the truth about crafting it. He might just have bought it on eBay,

just like the last time he needed an immunity ring for plot purposes, back in Start of Darkness with the handy acquisition of ring protecting him from positive energy damage

[SteveMB]

That depends on a couple of things, like what epic spell(s) Jephthon had. A few more of those Empowered Sunbursts could have done the trick though.

True. I noted earlier that without Redcloak nagging Xykon into some basic precautions, V-Roy Jenkins might well have pulled it off (ironically defeating Xykon at his own raw-power game).

[GSFB]

With 9th level summoning, V could have summoned an Astral Deva, which has (among many other things) massive clerical casting power. A summoned Deva could have cast Heal on Xykon, which would have meant the end of Xykon in the following round from pretty much any spell. I would have cast twice - once for the Deva as a primary ally, and a second time to summon several lower level celestials to use as shields. (Of course, we don't know what complications could have come from the evil souls summoning celestials - but there is no reason other than plot why it shouldn't work)

Also, for the record, we don't know that Xykon is immune to FIRE. We know has magic items that make him immune to the AREA OF EFFECT OF METEOR SWARM (his own words). In order to make the magic item more cost effective and use less XP, he could have specifically crafted it to only protect him from that one spell, as it is a battle tactic to cast it at close range.

[#Raptor]

Spell slots weren't the issue. Jepthon's sorcerer abilities allowed V to cast any of her spells as many times as she wanted. He could have cast Time Stop again, but he was being attacked and couldn't.

Jepthon didn't have Time Stop.
Imho V could have beaten Xykon if Jepthon would have had Time Stop.

You know, Xykon was right - V was channeling "the raw unlimited energies of two chumps who didn't have the ***** to stay in the game".

I mean, what sorcerer doesn't select timestop as one of his lvl 9 spells know?

Seriously now, if you're a sorcerer, 99% of the time you should select Time Stop as your first lvl 9 spell known, period. Jepthon fails. Hard.

[Hurkyl]

I mean, what sorcerer doesn't select timestop as one of his lvl 9 spells know?
Xykon.

Also, how about... a sorcerer who learns spells through innate talent and limited study, rather than through supernatural power-metagaming?

[D_Lord]

The answer is never. You guys go about that V was so dumb and should have done this, this, buff that. Well You are forgeting the otherside. Most GM have poweredgamed their monsters and BBG's if the players are powergaming. Xykon is powerful enough even though he is a sorcerer, he is more then powerful enough to be a Batman Sorcerer, in addition to being a lich. Power or mega game all you want people. That just means that the GM going to power game right back at you, if he is worth his salt.

[#Raptor]

Xykon.Did you look into Rich Burlews notes? If no, you don't know that for sure. Sure, O-Chul did have a list that is believed to be complete. If he has selected Spell Knowledge (and a epic core-only/mostly-core sorcerer really, really should) then the spell list is incomplete.
Also,How about... a sorcerer who learns spells through innate talent and limited study, rather than through supernatural power-metagaming?Theres no such thing as study mentioned in the sorcerers fluff.
So, going by your fluff some sorcerers have the innate talent to select inferiour spells? Yeah, well... better don't be a sorcerer then. Because it'll be like a box of Chocolates... oh wait, scratch that. I meant to say: Then life will be like a random box and you'll never know whats inside: Chocolates or dog poo.

But hey, if you really wanna go for "Supernatural power-metagaming" as you called it, you should be a wizard instead of a sorcerer anyways.

A sorcerer is absolutely free to select whatever spells he wants to select. He doesn't have to roll on a table to find out whats his innate talent, though the DM is obviously free to use that method of spell selection for NPC's. Or... he just handpicks them. In this case, the spells were apparently handpicked so Jepthon would suck. Therefore... he sucks.

I strongly suspect that if he wouldn't have gotten offed before, Haerta or Xykon would have used him as a material component in some necromantic ritual.

[Kish]

I will never understand people who, when they play D&D, try to develop the most powerful possible collection of stats and maybe think a little about personality as long as it doesn't interfere with the "tactically best" decisions. I mean really, who do you think you're going to beat in a cooperative game? Your fellow players? The DM?

I'll never understand, but it's only a problem when they also act like doing anything else is what demonstrates missing the point.

[Tempest Fennac]

Regarding making the most powerful choices, I tend to do that due to classing it as realistic based on the characters I'm using being constantly involved in life or death situations (and I hate the idea of potentially letting the other players down by being underpowered or picking abilities which I'd never use because they fit a character's personality*).

Regarding Sorcerers, I always assumed that, ingame, the spells were granted randomly to them because of how it would make sense due to them being born with it. On the other hand, I know this isn't practical when making a Sorcerer (I tried rolling to determine spells for a Core Only Sorcerer and it ended up getting loads of situational spells which aren't likely to be used that often).

I agree with the idea that V should have summoned a load of things to help him/her before waiting for Roy to be revived due to how it would have meant V wouldn't be fighting on his/her own.



*Most of my characters end up with the same basic personality so this problem doesn't apply as much for me anyway.

[#Raptor]

Ok, lets go with the whole personality angle. Whats Jepthons personality?
As far as we can tell, hes a Chaotic Evil Sorcerer that likes "trying to tear down creation, just to see if he can".

Now If I'd like to tear down creation... hmmm, let me think about that.
You're obviously altering something, eh? So, transmutation sounds like wheres it at.
How's stopping time sound like for a intermediate goal?

Sure, you're not quite there and its just a stepping stone towards your ultimate goal, but stopping time really sounds like its going into the right direction.
Lets hear the arguments why a CE Sorc that wants to tear down creation shouldn't select Time Stop.


I'll never understand, but it's only a problem when they also act like doing anything else is what demonstrates missing the point. The reactions you'll get will depend strongly on what exactly is the case. A Sorcerer not selecting Time Stop is like a Paladin taking Spell Focus (Divination).

To the preachers of anti-optimizing... everybody optimizes to at least some degree. Noone makes characters that they know will die in the first combat and then writes 5 pages of backstory for them - at least nobody sane does both again after the first character bit the dust. If theres no possibility of death whatsoever, yeah... you can play with zero optimization. If you can in fact die, you'll better at least optimize to the point where your fighters and barbs select power attack and put theyr good stats into strength and con.

There are merely different degrees of optimization.

A sorc selecting Time Stop is no more powergamed than the aforementioned fighter picking Power Attack.

[Foryn Gilnith]

A fighter can pick power attack. He trains in aggressive combat against combat dummies until he can execute the technique relies.

How does a sorcerer "pick" Time Stop? Metagaming aside (because, as stated, this is one field where metagaming is practically essential if you're going to play a sorcerer and have fun), how you "pick" abilities supposedly derived from bloodline? Wizards study and pick and combine arcane fragments until they get a functional spell, but sorcerers can't do that. How, in-universe, do you "pick" Time Stop?

PS: IIRC, Races of the Dragon may have actual information on how sorcerers pick spells, which may prove me wrong. Consulting now...

[derfenrirwolv]

I think the opponents of optimizing are just tired of seeing feral lynacnthropic half dragon half dero dwarf half hill dwarves, where you need to own every book in existance to pull off a combination. I mean.. how on earth do you come up with a backstory for THAT? Its not a PERSON, its a means of pulling off obscene amounts of damage in a round.

On the other hand, someone saying "i want to be a light and fast fighter" but insisting on taking the fighter class rather than a rogue or swashbuckler or ranger is putting their group at a disadvantage, for NO actual benefit. You could write the same background, have the same stats, and same personality but a BETTER build.

[derfenrirwolv]

A number of pretty simple precautions could have played havoc with xykon. Mirror image for starters. Obscuring mist and then blasting the room with sunbursts. A few more elemental immunities/resistances.

[Mando Knight]

simple, v could have lifted hir robes up, thats horrible enough right there to defeat any lich no matter how powerful.

Liches are immune to mind-affecting effects. :smalltongue:

[Hurkyl]

Lets hear the arguments why a CE Sorc that wants to tear down creation shouldn't select Time Stop.
Because he doesn't find the spell very intuitive, and doesn't have the patience to try and study it.

Because he preferred some other set of level 9 spells.

Because it's too boring.

Because he never thought about using it.




If he has selected Spell Knowledge (and a epic core-only/mostly-core sorcerer really, really should) then the spell list is incomplete.
What if he likes crafting?

Y'know, Xykon also once thought spells equals power. But y'know what actually equals power? Power equals power. :tongue:

[tyckspoon]

A fighter can pick power attack. He trains in aggressive combat against combat dummies until he can execute the technique relies.

How does a sorcerer "pick" Time Stop? Metagaming aside (because, as stated, this is one field where metagaming is practically essential if you're going to play a sorcerer and have fun), how you "pick" abilities supposedly derived from bloodline? Wizards study and pick and combine arcane fragments until they get a functional spell, but sorcerers can't do that. How, in-universe, do you "pick" Time Stop?


Assuming the character in question has been keeping his Spellcraft and Know: Arcane up to date, he is aware, in character, of the existence of the spell Time Stop. He also knows that he is a Sorcerer, a being of innate magical power, and that at least some portion of that power has not yet taken form (that is, he has Spells Known that he hasn't yet gained.) He bends his mind and practice to figuring out how to use his power to create a Time Stop effect, and when he has sufficient power to do so (ie, gains a 9th level Spell Known) voila, he learns Time Stop. "Innate power" doesn't have to mean "uncontrollable". If Sorcerer spells were entirely determined by random chance/the source of the Sorcerer's power/the Sorcerer's personality, Xykon would never know Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.

[Querzis]

You know whats really annoying about this? After the strip where V teleport to Xykon, there was lots of people on the forum who said that Xykon was screwed. Why? Because V still had lots of buff from his fight with the dragon. Because V would most likely have a surprise round in which he could cast time stop. And back then, the consensus was that it would be stupid for V to wait for the Order because he could easely lose another splice during that time. People also agreed that he shoudnt summon anything before getting into the cloister because its unlikely that he would be able to teleport anything else then himself inside the Cloister.

Hindsight sure help a lot. Look, if you are just trying to find a solution for fun then I have no problem with this. But if you think that V was dumb even if he used the same freaking tactics as in his fight with the dragon and if you're really arrogant enough to think you could have done better then you're really annoying. V wasnt a guy sitting in front of his computer looking in books to find a strategy. V was a really panicked and arrogant elf with a time limit.

Hell, even the guys sitting in front of their computers mostly thought of things that nobody knows for sure if it could have worked. Seriously, why are we assuming now that teleporting summoned creatures into the cloister would work when everyone assumed it woudnt work back then? Oh and Souhiro? Wish really doesnt work that way. If you really try something like that it would most likely backfire.

[Skorj]

I will never understand people who, when they play D&D, try to develop the most powerful possible collection of stats and maybe think a little about personality as long as it doesn't interfere with the "tactically best" decisions. I mean really, who do you think you're going to beat in a cooperative game? Your fellow players? The DM?

I'll never understand, but it's only a problem when they also act like doing anything else is what demonstrates missing the point.


I'll never understand why people don't do that in real life. Shouldn't everything ever be as optimized and elegant as physically possible, all the time? Of course it should!

Kish: I have what's called "the engineering mindset". When I see any set of rules or restrictions, I immediatly think about how I could perfectly optimize some solution within those bounds. It's just how I'm built. It's just how everyone who's good at engineering is built (though sadly not the converse). Hundreds of schools across the country charge big bucks to try to teach this mindset, in engineering degree programs (though no one's really sure it's teachable).

So, please, we understand it's not your style, but have a little tolerance for those of us who make all modern infrastructure and most of technology possible, even when we feel someone else is missing the point (we maybe didn't optimize for social skills). :smallsmile:

[Kish]

Seriously now, if you're a sorcerer, 99% of the time you should select Time Stop as your first lvl 9 spell known, period. Jepthon fails. Hard.

So, please, we understand it's not your style, but have a little tolerance for those of us who make all modern infrastructure and most of technology possible, even when we feel someone else is missing the point (we maybe didn't optimize for social skills). :smallsmile:
I find something ironic about being asked to show tolerance for the attitude that any sorcerer who doesn't choose Time Stop as a known spell deserves scorn and contempt. :smalltongue: So I am impervious to guilt, but I will ask this: What about Jephton makes you think he has anything close to an engineering mindset? Is it "tear down creation just to see if you can," or, "I don't need to prepare spell slots!"? Or the bit where he's a sorcerer/archmage "master of arcane flexibility," rather than a wizard?

[silvadel]

From reading this and thinking...

The most interesting minor aspect would have been to teleport in as a hobgoblin. Thing is this level of guile is beyond V. What is funny is ELAN might have thought of this one...

V could have summoned that astral deva or similar just to cast negative energy protection on V when V saw that Durkon was indisposed. But again that would require something alien to V -- a respect for divine magic.

Spell Turning is one buff that V could have and should have cast (assuming it was on V's spell lists) knowing that V was up against a high level or epic spellcaster.

Quickened Dimensional Anchor was a mistake. V could have assumed equal pomposity on Xykons part and cast something more useful. Again though -- this would require V seeing something V doesnt want to ever see.

---

Summing it all up -- No there wasnt a way super V really could have won given the circumstances.

[Lysander]

Summing it all up -- No there wasnt a way super V really could have won given the circumstances.

No, definitely not. Winning through arrogance and borrowed abilities wouldn't be a very satisfying ending to the quest against Xykon. Not to mention, the oracle stated Xykon would visit the next gate. So fate itself was against V, not just plot requirements.

The safest bet actually would have been to ignore Xykon entirely and instead weaken him. Imagine if V had teleported over Azure City and just cast killed as many hobgoblins as possible, then immediately left. You'd still have an epic lich and a few powerful minions to deal with, but they'd lack a giant army.

Or just killing Redcloak and destroying his body beyond a raise. V could have pulled that off, and it would have destroyed Xykon's most powerful servant. And I doubt any of his hobgoblin clerics can cast True Resurrection.

Of course settling for second best wasn't something a proud wizard would stoop to.

[#Raptor]

<...>
Excellent argument. Xykon even mentions researching the spell. So, at least in Oots-land, a sorcerer seems absolutely free to select whatever spells he wants.
What if he likes crafting?

Y'know, Xykon also once thought spells equals power. But y'know what actually equals power? Power equals power. :tongue:Alright... you win. :smallbiggrin:

But what did you mean by "What if he likes crafting?" ?

I can imagine one thing... he selects Master Staff.
Then he gets himself a toy wizard (tear every page of his spellbook out but Time Stop) and orders him to make him a staff with a charge of timestop (perhaps bluff him "I'll let you go if you do this for me" - we know he bluffed the Oots before in #106).

Thanks to Master Staff he can now cast timestop (and he got himself a new undead wizard servant!). :smallamused: Defininitely sounds like Xykon's style too.


I find something ironic about being asked to show tolerance for the attitude that any sorcerer who doesn't choose Time Stop as a known spell deserves scorn and contempt. :smalltongue: Hey, there are lots of Jepthon fans on those boards. There needs to be some kind of cosmic balance, ya know? :smalltongue:

Though I'll have to say that he had his moment too - when he bluffed Roy. I tend to think of Jepthon kinda like Elan - not optimized and probably not a huge boon to those around him, but good comedic relief. Yeah - when it comes to being useful to his group Elan doesn't do too good either. Doesn't mean he gets scorn and contempt from me.

[rewinn]

From reading this and thinking...

The most interesting minor aspect would have been to teleport in as a hobgoblin. Thing is this level of guile is beyond V. What is funny is ELAN might have thought of this one...

V could have summoned that astral deva or similar just to cast negative energy protection on V when V saw that Durkon was indisposed. But again that would require something alien to V -- a respect for divine magic...

Quickened Dimensional Anchor was a mistake. V could have assumed equal pomposity on Xykons part and cast something more useful. Again though -- this would require V seeing something V doesnt want to ever see.

---

Summing it all up -- No there wasnt a way super V really could have won given the circumstances.
Even though we, judging at leisure and from afar, might devise winning combinations of arcane power, V at the start of the encounter had the major disadvantage of being emotionally unable to do so.

V simply didn't recognize the value of teamwork until it was too late; Red-Cloak (soon to be renamed One-Eye VersionTwo) was key to X's victory, between the symbols that disrupted V's first attack, to the True Seeing that revealed the Splice and the instructions to Tsukiko that brought V down.

If V *had* defeated Xykon, V would have missed important character growth, such as a recognition of the limits of power, and the chance to show real courage in going back to rescue O-Chul.

Given all the above, it is ironic that there was a simple way for V to win, by just imitating Haley in 649 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) and going to the last page of the series to bring back the "Yay! We Won!" scene.

[Lord Seth]

Step 1: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon Philactery gets dissintegrated right now.
Step 2: Cast Wish
- I Wish that Xykon and all his allies which are near him, from this moment to the rest of eternity, won't be able to cast any magic, ever.
Step 3: Epic Teleport
Step 4: Splatterhouse.Wish is a risky spell, as DMs are actively encouraged to try to find loopholes in it. We don't know exactly how eager to find loopholes the "DM" (or whatever it is in the comic) is, so those could definitely backfire.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Assuming the character in question has been keeping his Spellcraft and Know: Arcane up to date,

Big assumption, at least based on the sorcerers I've seen.


If Sorcerer spells were entirely determined by random chance/the source of the Sorcerer's power/the Sorcerer's personality, Xykon would never know Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage.

That's a good point. Although Xykon does seem to be keeping Spellcraft and Knowledge up-to-date, based on his epic spellcasting potential; and Jephton may not have similar research capacity.


Hindsight sure help a lot. Look, if you are just trying to find a solution for fun then I have no problem with this. But if you think that V was dumb even if he used the same freaking tactics as in his fight with the dragon and if you're really arrogant enough to think you could have done better then you're really annoying. V wasnt a guy sitting in front of his computer looking in books to find a strategy. V was a really panicked and arrogant elf with a time limit.


Great points you made, but I'd just like to comment that nobody seems to be "looking in books" to find a strategy. Nothing suggested here has been on the level of Feral Mineral Warrior Half-Derro Gully Dwarves. It's fairly simple, and people are at least taking the basic rigor to check if their solutions involve cheese, and suggesting otherwise undermines their work. The only pervasive flaw is the far more minor one of not correcting for hindsight (which you mentioned).

[Berserk Monk]

Assuming she/him hadn't been using epic soul splice magic like a cudgel, what intelligent strategy could have been used to destroy Xykon?

Personally, I'd probably summon a few horrendous monsters as bodyguards and teleport in with them.

V would need a spell that would turn him into the protagonist of the comic.*

*As Elan would say, :elan: "Everybody knows only the main hero gets to kill the insanely powerful arch-villain in a story."

[rewinn]

V would need a spell that would turn him into the protagonist of the comic.*

*As Elan would say, :elan: "Everybody knows only the main hero gets to kill the insanely powerful arch-villain in a story."

Perhaps "Become the Epic's Hero" was the Epic Level Spell that the 3rd spliced soul never got around to casting. :smallbiggrin:

[Stormlock]

Shapechange would have still been running, and based on where V's soulsplices were from, I'm guessing they'd be 'familiar' with some pretty freaking powerful forms. I mean, even Xykon wouldn't stand a chance against a Balor, much less a Balor V summoned with his new form's innate ability as well as V, the Balor that can cast Empowered Sunburst. Though the innate Implosion might do the trick anyways. Sorcerers aren't exactly known for their Fort saves and unless I'm forgetting something undead turn up rather shabbily in the Con department. Hell, V could probably just smash him with hir fists in that form, being immune to fire and lightning. I doubt he's going to win any grapple checks. Hell, this way the anti-casting wards wouldn't even have been triggered.

[Iago]

simple, v could have lifted hir robes up, thats horrible enough right there to defeat any lich no matter how powerful.

No, Xykon is not a biophiliac.

[Herald Alberich]

Shapechange would have still been running, and based on where V's soulsplices were from, I'm guessing they'd be 'familiar' with some pretty freaking powerful forms. I mean, even Xykon wouldn't stand a chance against a Balor, much less a Balor V summoned with his new form's innate ability as well as V, the Balor that can cast Empowered Sunburst. Though the innate Implosion might do the trick anyways. Sorcerers aren't exactly known for their Fort saves and unless I'm forgetting something undead turn up rather shabbily in the Con department. Hell, V could probably just smash him with hir fists in that form, being immune to fire and lightning. I doubt he's going to win any grapple checks. Hell, this way the anti-casting wards wouldn't even have been triggered.

Based on the description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), specifically the words "any single nonunique creature", I'm pretty sure you're limited to one form per casting of Shapechange, and you can switch back and forth between it and your natural form at will. So V would have to cast it again to become a Balor.
(edit: well, on the other hand, maybe I'm wrong. Hmm.)

That being said, turning back into the big pink dragon probably would have been a good idea.

[wootage]

Based on the description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm), specifically the words "any single nonunique creature", I'm pretty sure you're limited to one form per casting of Shapechange, and you can switch back and forth between it and your natural form at will. So V would have to cast it again to become a Balor.
(edit: well, on the other hand, maybe I'm wrong. Hmm.)

That being said, turning back into the big pink dragon probably would have been a good idea.

But V's motivations are key to his/her strategy (or lack thereof) here. V wanted to defeat Xykon mago-y-mago (gee I hope that doesn't actually mean anything lol) to prove that he/she had achieved her goal of ultimate power.

[Stormlock]

After browsing the epic page of the d20srd, I think it'd be possible to use shapechange to turn into a demilich (assuming you were 'familiar' with that creature, whatever that means). I don't think anything short of an epic monster would even have a shot at scratching such a thing. It has frigging magic immunity as a listed ability. Vulnerable to Shatter, but even assuming Xykon has that, it has 20 points of resistance to sonic damage anyways. With shatter dishing out 30 points even maximised, I doubt there'd even be a need to draw a scratch on V's blinged out skull.

[Herald Alberich]

After browsing the epic page of the d20srd, I think it'd be possible to use shapechange to turn into a demilich (assuming you were 'familiar' with that creature, whatever that means). I don't think anything short of an epic monster would even have a shot at scratching such a thing. It has frigging magic immunity as a listed ability. Vulnerable to Shatter, but even assuming Xykon has that, it has 20 points of resistance to sonic damage anyways. With shatter dishing out 30 points even maximised, I doubt there'd even be a need to draw a scratch on V's blinged out skull.

*whistle* Yeah, wow. And if Xykon survived that fight (not that V would even entertain the possibility), he'd be clued in to the knowledge that there's another level of power above lichdom, and the Order would probably be screwed.

[Aldrakan]

I think somewhere on this site there's an article by Rich about how to make some transformation spells less ridiculously broken, and one of the first fixes was "Shapechange doesn't give you supernatural abilities of any creature you want".

I know it messes up a rules discussion, but it could be that OotS is houseruling in some limits on the transformation, which would prevent you from becoming a floating skull with incredible magical resistance to damage and soul gems for teeth. And would leave you as a...floating skull. Rather less threatening.

Though even restricted to purely physical benefits (having found the article, if I'm reading it right these don't include a breath weapon), dragon form would probably have helped out.

[Querzis]

I think somewhere on this site there's an article by Rich about how to make some transformation spells less ridiculously broken, and one of the first fixes was "Shapechange doesn't give you supernatural abilities of any creature you want".

I know it messes up a rules discussion, but it could be that OotS is houseruling in some limits on the transformation, which would prevent you from becoming a floating skull with incredible magical resistance to damage and soul gems for teeth. And would leave you as a...floating skull. Rather less threatening.

Though even restricted to purely physical benefits (having found the article, if I'm reading it right these don't include a breath weapon), dragon form would probably have helped out.

Yeah Rich is probably using that rule, not only because he freaking made it but because its true that Shapechange is totally overpowered. All the DM I know didnt ban that spell for no reason.

[Underground]

Considering how the actual battle went, I doubt that V, with her low saves, her bad difficulty class, and the fact that the splices can be leveldrained (I still say - what the heck ? They're undead, for crying out loud, therefore it shouldnt be possible to leveldrain them), would have much of a chance, no matter what strategy.

[The Guardian]

Just curious, assuming V still had all 3 splices...

What happens if you hit a lich with Disjunction? :smalleek:

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think anything in particular would happen barring his buffs being removed and his magic items potentially losing their magic.

[ZeroNumerous]

Considering how the actual battle went, I doubt that V, with her low saves, her bad difficulty class, and the fact that the splices can be leveldrained (I still say - what the heck ? They're undead, for crying out loud, therefore it shouldnt be possible to leveldrain them), would have much of a chance, no matter what strategy.

Pre-battle buffs:
Gate: Solar
Protection from Energy(Electricity)
Protection from Energy(Fire)
Protection from Energy(Cold)
Protection from Energy(Acid)
Protection from Energy(Sonic)
Mind Blank
Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability(Choose Sunburst and a back-up Greater Invisibility)
Superior Invisibility
Protection from Spells
Solar gives us both Death Ward then goes about it's Cleric-zilla buff routine and throws on Holy Aura.

Battle:
Round 1:
Teleport in with Solar in tow.
Ward goes off, Chain Lightning blocked by Prot from Electricity.
Step One: Quickened Dimensional Anchor v Xykon. Time Stop.
Effective Round 1: Acid Fog, Quickened Delayed Blast Fireball.
Effect Round 2-5: Delayed Blast Fireball, Quickened Delayed Blast Fireball. Two every round for anywhere between 45d6 to 135d6 fire damage on everyone but the Solar. Xykon ignores because he's fire immune.

Round 2:
Status: Xykon cannot see me(acid fog) and takes acid damage.
Even if he moves out of the fog, he still cannot see me(Superior Invisibility)
Xykon cannot teleport away(DA)
My actions:
Quickened Sunburst.
Acid Fog on his new location(If he moved) or Empowered Sunburst.
Familiar: Sunburst.
Solar: Heal vs Xykon.

End result: 50d6+150 to 75d6+150 damage on round two, with Ref and Will saves for half. Repeat Round 2 as many times as necessary. The Solar is the only visible threat and Xykon is not smart enough to look for other threats. Danger to V? Near 0%.

[Querzis]

and the fact that the splices can be leveldrained (I still say - what the heck ? They're undead, for crying out loud, therefore it shouldnt be possible to leveldrain them)

No they are not. They are souls, just like Roy. If the demon and the angel who were human before arent undead, you can be damn sure souls aint either.


Just curious, assuming V still had all 3 splices...

What happens if you hit a lich with Disjunction? :smalleek:

Nothing much. Of course lich almost always have lots of magic items and Xykon is no exception so its still a good idea to cast that spell.

And apparently ZeroNumerous once again assume V could even teleport someone else with him and even worse, he assume V would trust the solar divine magic. The question is how V could have won the fight not how a Batman Wizard with lots of free time on his hands could have won the fight.

Hell, a solar is a force of good. He would most likely attack V and his splices. Thats what annoy me the most about Batman Wizard, its not because it works in the rules that it could work in character! In all this thread I would rate your plan as the least likely to work by far.

[Finwe]

Ignoring for a second the question of what tactics would have been useful, there was a huge amount of preperation that V should have take that would have been immensely useful. Such things would be:

1. Ask the splices what they knew about liches (what strengths, what weaknesses, etc).
2. Ask the splices for their general advice - they are intimately familiar with their spell lists, unlike V, and have much more experience using them and dueling with them.
3. Actually Scry on the throne room beforehand, instead of just teleporting in. That way he could identify traps and other defenses, and learn a bit more about Xykon first.
4. Cast a few more buffs
5. Summon summon summon summon! Gannoron was a freaking epic conjurer, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a whole slew of nasty summons up his sleeve. Since epic teleport is capable of transporting an entire fleet, there's no reason V shouldn't have shown up in the throne room with an army.
6. Shapechange into something useful/nasty. Something with lots of immunities/defenses, so that he'll blend in with his army.

[Kish]

Hell, a solar is a force of good. He would most likely attack V and his splices. Thats what annoy me the most about Batman Wizard, its not because it works in the rules that it could work in character! In all this thread I would rate your plan as the least likely to work by far.
I would have thought it was hilarious if Vaarsuvius had attempted to execute a "Batman Wizard" strategy, cast Gate despite the spliced souls protesting, "Uh, that might not be a good idea," and promptly got beaten into the ground by the solar they were foolish enough to summon under the circumstances.

[Starbuck_II]

Hell, a solar is a force of good. He would most likely attack V and his splices. Thats what annoy me the most about Batman Wizard, its not because it works in the rules that it could work in character! In all this thread I would rate your plan as the least likely to work by far.

Sorry, the rules don't work that like.

Solars when gated are your utter servants. They must follow your every command and desire (if within 1 rd/level).
Gate is clear.

[Stormlock]

While I don't know if this would qualify exactly as defeating him in the context of this thread, given how many hobgoblins are crammed into Azure City, couldn't a Weird spell pretty much wipe out everyone who failed their will save (So, I'm guessing, just under 95% of them.) Even assuming it had to be cast a few times in the most crowded areas (I'm sure spamming a dozen monster summoning spells summoning low level things to bring all the troops out into the streets would help, as well as provide extra targets to link between hobgoblins.), and 'only' wiped out say, two thirds of his forces, that'd leave the city pretty vulnerable to military action. It'd also certainly draw Xykon out of his lair, probably split up him, Redcloak, and Tsukiko, and keep V well away from the MitD, if Xykon decided to use that trump card.

[Herald Alberich]

Since epic teleport is capable of transporting an entire fleet, there's no reason V shouldn't have shown up in the throne room with an army.

Epic Teleport is powerful enough to move an entire fleet, and also powerful enough to pierce the Cloister. Whether it's powerful enough to do both at once is what's in question here. Ganonron had visible difficulty just getting V in by himself.

[Kish]

Sorry, the rules don't work that like.

Solars when gated are your utter servants. They must follow your every command and desire (if within 1 rd/level).
Gate is clear.A minor modification then, involving the solar hunting down the incredibly evil wizard/sorcerer/archmage splice thingy who was foolish enough to attract its attention as soon as the Gate ends (and quite possibly bringing an army).

Acting like superintelligent NPCs are weapons to be used without consultation is not "letting a wizard operate at full potential," it's "being an idiot."

[Optimystik]

The Solar will serve for the battle, but nothing is stopping it from plane shifting back later to exact righteous vengeance on you. Making an enemy of something that can cast Miracle is far from being a good idea.

However, it might be okay with fighting a lich, and so not be too miffed.

[Querzis]

Sorry, the rules don't work that like.

Solars when gated are your utter servants. They must follow your every command and desire (if within 1 rd/level).
Gate is clear.

Wow, if you actually really use the gate spell like that its seriously overpowered:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Gate

«If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous.»

Did you actually thought any level 20 wizard could just call an army of solar to help him? Gate is really good when you actually call creatures that would most likely help you for free anyway.

And by the way, gate also have an XP cost when you call a creature from it. I dont think the splice would like to give their precious XP just for V. But I would love if they would do it just to see a solar attack V (even more if he actually come back with a few of his friends).

[Kish]

What the splices would like is irrelevant. The fiends were very clear about that, first when speaking to Vaarsuvius and then when gloating to Qarr about Vaarsuvius' responsibility for everything they did while spliced. The splices were Vaarsuvius' total slaves.
Whether the Soul Splice spell effect would actually permit Vaarsuvius to sacrifice the spliced souls' XP for spells cast by the gestalt is another question.

[quick_comment]

V could have easily beaten Xykon.

Buff before he teleports. Timestop before he teleports.

Sweep the area with arcane sight or detect magic, move away from any obvious traps.

Summon some monsters, lay down some prismatic walls, etc.

In the last round of timestop, ready an action for a maximized empowered sunburst.

Surprise round begins. Maximized empowered sunburst, quickened empowered sunburst (or whatever he is capable of casting).

That ought to put him down I think. If it doesnt, its not to hard to survive a single round from Redcloak and Xykon. The following round you finish xykon off. Redcloak dies the round after that.

The tricky part is ensuring you get the phylactery. It almost certainly has magic aura on it to make it look nonmagical. Maybe one of the epic diviniation spells could find it.

[Antrozous]

In theory, yes. However, there's a difference between theory and practice: In theory they're the same. In practice, they're not.

You just hand a player a powerful character, and they'll never use it to it's full potential. For instance, you can buy an epic, top level, decked out World of Warcraft character with real world cash. Or give a high lvl paper doll to a new D&D player. They'll get humiliated trying to use it even in normal, level appropriate circumstances. V was still the same level, with the same stats. Just a few extra spells.

The player who clawed his way to that point? He'll be the one crushing you with his bare phalanges. He knows his stats, why each point is where it is, and how best to use them.

Does that sum up the V vs X fight, or does it not?

[Crafty Cultist]

Antimagic ray

summoning magic

lich without spells versus big-ass monsters

nuf said

[ZeroNumerous]

And apparently ZeroNumerous once again assume V could even teleport someone else with him and even worse, he assume V would trust the solar divine magic.

No, I assume V isn't acting like a moron.


The question is how V could have won the fight not how a Batman Wizard with lots of free time on his hands could have won the fight.

How could V have easily wiped the floor with Xykon? By not acting like a moron.


In all this thread I would rate your plan as the least likely to work by far.

Gate forces compliance. I'd check the spells used in said plan before rating it at anything.

Everything in my list is based off Arcane magic with the assumption that V recognizes that he's going to attack a high level lich. Even the Solar is there solely because of Arcane magic. It's entirely within character for V to have used those spells to fight like that. But he didn't because he was acting like a moron.


The Solar will serve for the battle, but nothing is stopping it from plane shifting back later to exact righteous vengeance on you.

Since when was seeking pointless personal vengeance a Good thing? Particularly since you just destroyed a powerful lich by casting a [Good] and [Lawful] spell(summoning a creature with Good or Lawful subtypes makes Gate a spell with that subtype). If anything, you've positively affected your karma by casting Gate: Solar.

[Optimystik]

Did you actually thought any level 20 wizard could just call an army of solar to help him? Gate is really good when you actually call creatures that would most likely help you for free anyway.

Nobody mentioned an army :smallconfused: a level 20 or even level 17 wizard can indeed call forth a Solar using Gate, despite Solars having at least 22 HD.

[Lysander]

How about summoning as many Leonals as possible and making them all use their Lay on Hands ability on Xykon?

[Foryn Gilnith]

The question is how V could have won the fight not how a Batman Wizard with lots of free time on his hands could have won the fight.

As much as I find the rest of the particular post quoted objectionable and incorrect (sorry to come down hard on you, Querzis :P), this is an important point to consider. How could V, using an intelligent strategy, destroy Xykon? While the current history is the most likely outcome of the scenario, V's arrogance/haste/fatigue does not entirely preclude intelligence - but it does preclude some of the more drastic precautionary methods employed. Most notably, I agree that V would not have summoned a solar given that (among other factors) V is unfamiliar with Conjuration.

Vaarsuvius's personality is a non-trivial, if not overriding factor in this consideration; and it ought to be taken into account. There's a lot of gray space in between "acts like a moron" and "intelligent optimization".

[Stormlock]

I'm curious about the possibilities of collapsing the castle on Xykon. It was already pretty mangled by the gate. Earthquake and Structural resonance are both non wizard/sorc spells though, so I'm having trouble thinknig of a method. Horde of earth elementals underground maybe?

[spargel]

Vaarsuvius's personality is a non-trivial, if not overriding factor in this consideration; and it ought to be taken into account. There's a lot of gray space in between "acts like a moron" and "intelligent optimization".

In V's case, it's closer to "acts like a moron". She even admits that she "squandered its full potential by wielding it like a cudgel".

[veti]

I'm curious about the possibilities of collapsing the castle on Xykon.

It wouldn't hurt him, even if you can figure it out. He has Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html).

It would, very likely, inconvenience Redcloak and Tsukiko, but I'm thinking there are easier ways to achieve that.

[grautry]

I figure that V acting like a moron can be explained by two simple facts(yes, he acted like a moron).

1. The one everyone acknowledges - V is arrogantly assuming that Arcane Power is absolutely unbeatable, the perfect and absolute source of power. He therefore does not want to consider other sources of power.
2. V does not only want to prove that arcane magic is the ultimate power. He wants to prove that HIS Arcane Power is the ultimate power. That his leaving his family behind for all those years and bringing them danger was worth it.

And what is V's Arcane Power? It's the power of a blaster.

That's what V wants to prove. He wants to prove that arcane power, done his way and only his way, can triumph and overcome everything that's thrown at him.

That's why V ultimately looses. Because he prepared spells his way, the blaster way. He did not use all the possibilities awarded by him by sub-epic and epic level magic. Instead he focused on more d6's.

Disclaimer: As to not start unwanted discussions, I want to state beforehand that yes, blasting can work well. But it generally requires far more optimization that we've ever seen from any character in the comic.

EDIT: I understood Optymistik wrong(I read it as "can't"), sorry about that.

[RecklessFable]

Whenever I've played at higher levels recently, the killing blows have been:

Giant Sized (Colossal) Cleric grappling a Demon Prince

Empowered/Maximized Mass Heal (Radiant Servants Rock) on some Epic Lich

Uberbuffed Melee supported by massive healing and delayed dispels: Too many to count

A Swift Hunter with a silly-awesome amount of 20s (One round kill... oops, stacked crits are now banned for the sake of story) against a debuffed Wizard. I forget if we had anti-magic field up.

Sudden Maximized Offensive Spells (Type Light) (Generally Cleric) against most high level peons.

So, at least for us, Arcane has generally been better for utility and support than blasting. The problem being elemental spells are always useless at higher levels (of course the Lich is immune to fire too since our DM isn't stupid) so you end up using Light, Force and Physical attacks.

So what should V have done? Summoned friends! Ok, fine, barring that, Timestop, Summon Golems and cast anti-magic field.

[Ruduen]

So what should V have done? Summoned friends! Ok, fine, barring that, Timestop, Summon Golems and cast anti-magic field.

Doesn't antimagic field null summoned creatures, and isn't using it against the point when V's power comes completely from more spells and buffs?

[baerdith]

Assuming she/him hadn't been using epic soul splice magic like a cudgel, what intelligent strategy could have been used to destroy Xykon?

Personally, I'd probably summon a few horrendous monsters as bodyguards and teleport in with them.

Scry on the room then Time Stop before entering the room. Then sweep the floor with X.

[baerdith]

I mean, what sorcerer doesn't select timestop as one of his lvl 9 spells know?

Seriously now, if you're a sorcerer, 99% of the time you should select Time Stop as your first lvl 9 spell known, period. Jepthon fails. Hard.


Well, Xykon doesn't.....

[baerdith]

Did you look into Rich Burlews notes? If no, you don't know that for sure. Sure, O-Chul did have a list that is believed to be complete. If he has selected Spell Knowledge (and a epic core-only/mostly-core sorcerer really, really should) then the spell list is incomplete.Theres no such thing as study mentioned in the sorcerers fluff.


Really, so You think Xykon is 29th or 30th level?? Really?

[#Raptor]

Really, so You think Xykon is 29th or 30th level?? Really?I don't know his level and usually I don't speculate what level he could be.
However, last time I checked there was no proof for Xykons exact level.

But what would that have to do with Spell Knowledge? You don't have to be lvl 29 or 30 to take it.


Spell Knowledge [Epic]

Prerequisite Ability to cast spells of the maximum normal spell level of an arcane spellcasting class.

Benefit The character learns two new arcane spells of any level up to the maximum level he or she can cast. This feat does not grant any additional spell slots.

Special A character can gain this feat multiple times.

[Panopticon]

I suspect summoning wouldn't have helped too much. Given the attack bonuses of the majority of monsters on the summoning lists and Xykon's likely high AC. The 9th level summoning spells have an xp cost if I recall and others like planar binding have long enough casting times that they would not have been viable.

V didn't have a ton of options really, given his primary choice of blasting and Xykon's immunities. for damage dealing sunburst was probably his best option, and applying metamagic to whatever spontaneous slots were available would have been his best tactic, assuming no response from Xykon.

Without any knowledge of the defenses his best bet would have been to port out as soon as time stop was lost as an option. Then come back with the rest of the order like he should have in the first place. Sticking around the best bet was hope you get lucky with dispel magic and keep out of reach while blasting with whatever force/light/physical damage options are available. That or bring down as much of the castle as possible with disintegrate or whatever, yeah Xykon has ghostform but can he cast while pinned in rubble?

Mind you, Xykon being intelligent and a lich would have ways to counter this, similar to the black dragon an antimagic field would have left V pretty much at his (lack of) mercy.

[ZeroNumerous]

The 9th level summoning spells have an xp cost if I recall ...

And? That's not a hard price, or even much of a price at all, if what you're buying is assured victory.


V didn't have a ton of options really, given his primary choice of blasting and Xykon's immunities.

He had plenty of options, even with blasting as his only form of offense. But he acted like an idiot rather than the (presumably) 20 intelligence elf that he is.


That or bring down as much of the castle as possible with disintegrate or whatever, yeah Xykon has ghostform but can he cast while pinned in rubble?

Yes.


Mind you, Xykon being intelligent and a lich would have ways to counter this, similar to the black dragon an antimagic field would have left V pretty much at his (lack of) mercy.

Unlikely. Other than having high saves, there's really nothing he could have done to stop Sunburst or any force spells(Manyjaws, Force Missile, Magic Missile, Chain Missile, Orb of Force, etc).

[Sholos]

Unlikely. Other than having high saves, there's really nothing he could have done to stop Sunburst or any force spells(Manyjaws, Force Missile, Magic Missile, Chain Missile, Orb of Force, etc).

Not that we know that V has any of those, and Xykon is almost assuredly immune to Magic Missile.

I find it interesting that most of the methods that would have proved more successful are things that V has never done before or go against his personality.

Scrying? When has V ever been shown to look ahead? Never, that's when. He didn't scry when they went to rescue Roy's sister, why should we expect him to scry now?

Conjuration? Heck, until now, he's not even been able to do it. It's no surprise that he wouldn't be thinking appropriately of the ways to use it. It'd be like handing a dedicated melee person a sniper rifle and asking them to be effective with it. Unless you have the training to be a sniper, it doesn't work, because the equipment is only one part of the equation.

So, could an equally built wizard have done better than V? Yes, most certainly. Could V have done better than V? No. Being who he was is part and parcel of why he failed.

[spargel]

Scrying? When has V ever been shown to look ahead? Never, that's when. He didn't scry when they went to rescue Roy's sister, why should we expect him to scry now?


He was planning to scry for Haley...



So, could an equally built wizard have done better than V? Yes, most certainly. Could V have done better than V? No. Being who he was is part and parcel of why he failed.

Yes, that's the point: V is/was a moron.

[Tempest Fennac]

V has used Magic Missile before. Regarding V not knowing how to use Conjuration, s/he could have gotten advice from the Soul Splices (s/he already knew that Garon was capable of summoning and teleporting massive armies from the Fiends).

[Sholos]

He was planning to scry for Haley...
Okay, one time, to locate an ally and very good friend. He's never done anything combat-related, though, even knowing what they're going up against.



Yes, that's the point: V is/was a moron.
I wouldn't call him a moron. Chances are, put any of us in the same situation and we'd likely make the same decisions. Yes, V wasn't thinking clearly, but that doesn't make him stupid. Heck, lots of hyper-intelligent people seem to have a problem when it comes to thinking about various little details.


V has used Magic Missile before. Regarding V not knowing how to use Conjuration, s/he could have gotten advice from the Soul Splices (s/he already knew that Garon was capable of summoning and teleporting massive armies from the Fiends).

Yeah, I couldn't remember if we had seen MM from V, but figured he had it as an evoker, which is why I mentioned Xykon almost certainly being immune to it. It was the rest of the spells that I didn't see as likely being on V's list, especially since we've never even seen them in the comic, much less being cast by V.

As to the advice thing, don't forget that V is absurdly arrogant, and has been shown to believe that his solutions and plans are the best in every situation. He's been shown ignoring good advice several times before, and has never really sought it out. So that idea again goes directly against V's personality.

[vampire2948]

V has used Magic Missile before. Regarding V not knowing how to use Conjuration, s/he could have gotten advice from the Soul Splices (s/he already knew that Garon was capable of summoning and teleporting massive armies from the Fiends).

Yes - But that would have meant asking someone else for help. She'd already done that far too much on that day for her ego to handle.
Anyway - V is an evoker. If she beat Xy', she'd have wanted it to be by firin' energy at him till he was no longer undead.

Also - She lacked time. And seemed to enjoy ordering her links to ultimate arcane power around.

*goes off to reread the fine print to check if I missed anything*

Vampire2948,

[spargel]

Okay, one time, to locate an ally and very good friend. He's never done anything combat-related, though, even knowing what they're going up against.

I'm not sure how much her spell choice before the soul splice matters. I don't remember her using any protection spells before the soul splice, and she used some during the dragon fight. She also gained some new spells during the splice.


I wouldn't call him a moron. Chances are, put any of us in the same situation and we'd likely make the same decisions.

Yes, V wasn't thinking clearly, but that doesn't make him stupid.

Heck, lots of hyper-intelligent people seem to have a problem when it comes to thinking about various little details.


No, we really wouldn't make the same decisions.

How many hyper-intelligent people do you know? I haven't really heard of many.


Yes - But that would have meant asking someone else for help. She'd already done that far too much on that day for her ego to handle.

Isn't that more like forcing someone else to help?

[vampire2948]

Isn't that more like forcing someone else to help?

Mmm, perhaps - still - it would have meant gaining help from someone else.

V thought she had just gained ultimate arcane power (and she may have. or may not have, but that is a topic for another thread) her and her ego might not have thought they needed to ask for help from anyone else.
We know V has a basic to mid-level understanding of high level core spells and their uses, she must have thought that was enough to go on.

[ZeroNumerous]

Unless you have the training to be a sniper, it doesn't work, because the equipment is only one part of the equation.

Spellcraft at +16 at very least. He has training.


Okay, one time, to locate an ally and very good friend. He's never done anything combat-related, though, even knowing what they're going up against.

Of course, which is why my list doesn't use scrying. It only uses abjurations, evocations and one conjuration.


I wouldn't call him a moron.

Then you'd be ignoring empirical evidence to the contrary.


Chances are, put any of us in the same situation and we'd likely make the same decisions. Yes, V wasn't thinking clearly, but that doesn't make him stupid.

I most certainly wouldn't, and I don't have nearly the spellcraft ranks V does. And yes, acting like a moron makes you a moron. You can get better, but that doesn't excuse your current and immediate actions.


It was the rest of the spells that I didn't see as likely being on V's list, especially since we've never even seen them in the comic, much less being cast by V.

Doesn't mean one of the other splices didn't know it.

[Koretsu]

Ironically, one of V's best weapons against undead didn't come from any of the splices. Disintegrate does absolutely horrifying things when you use it against an enemy without a Fortitude Save. ;)

[spargel]

Mmm, perhaps - still - it would have meant gaining help from someone else.

V thought she had just gained ultimate arcane power (and she may have. or may not have, but that is a topic for another thread) her and her ego might not have thought they needed to ask for help from anyone else.
We know V has a basic to mid-level understanding of high level core spells and their uses, she must have thought that was enough to go on.

She's basically forcing the three souls to help just by using the soul splice, so... got a counter-argument for that?

[Herald Alberich]

Spellcraft at +16 at very least. He has training.

The point, though, is that Conjuration was a barred school for him - no matter how learned he is in the other schools, he's never cast any Conjuration spells before and has no particular reason to read about them. The only thing about it we've seen him regret is that Teleport got shifted into the school. And when he gets Conjuration, what does he do with it? Several Greater Teleports and two Epic Teleports. He's not at all versed in using it for anything else.


She's basically forcing the three souls to help just by using the soul splice, so... got a counter-argument for that?

But V's the one calling all the shots. He's using their spell slots, but not asking for their advice on how best to do so. That's not "asking for help" so much as "ordering a servant".

[spargel]

But V's the one calling all the shots. He's using their spell slots, but not asking for their advice on how best to do so. That's not "asking for help" so much as "ordering a servant".

It's not like she's going to ask her summoned creatures for advice or anything.

I never really understood why she had trouble making the soul splice decision in the first place because of the "I had to do it myself" or "My magic has to get the job done" reason. She's still relying on others to help her with the soul splice, and the magic she uses isn't even her own.

[Herald Alberich]

I never really understood why she had trouble making the soul splice decision in the first place because of the "I had to do it myself" or "My magic has to get the job done" reason. She's still relying on others to help her with the soul splice, and the magic she uses isn't even her own.

Well, yes, that's the hypocrisy of the whole Faustian deal, made apparent by Xykon's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html): "If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place." The fact that V was handed the power and that means it's not really his is a good part of the lesson he needed to learn.

When V was desperate and not thinking clearly, the fiends reassured him on that point with lines like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) "100% your idea" and "We're just service providers."

[spargel]

Well, yes, that's the hypocrisy of the whole Faustian deal, made apparent by Xykon's speech (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html): "If you can lose it by blowing two Will saves, you never really had any power in the first place." The fact that V was handed the power and that means it's not really his is a good part of the lesson he needed to learn.

When V was desperate and not thinking clearly, the fiends reassured him on that point with lines like (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) "100% your idea" and "We're just service providers."

Except V was actually thinking quite a lot and pretty clearly until the fiends gave her the alternate plan. As soon as that happened, her intelligence dropped like a rock.

[Kish]

Thinking clearly? Vaarsuvius' thought processes were profoundly impaired from the first time we saw him/her with signs of sleep deprivation, and steadily got worse up until s/he lost the Splice.

[Herald Alberich]

Indeed, although V's questions and rebuttals were fairly well-reasoned considering his mental state, the fiends outmaneuvered him at every turn. They managed to convince him that since selling his soul was his idea, he earned what he got in exchange, and at the same time, that he wasn't responsible for the results (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html), neither of which are true.

Edit: Anyway, I guess my point is, I agree with this:


So, could an equally built wizard have done better than V? Yes, most certainly. Could V have done better than V? No. Being who he was is part and parcel of why he failed.

And I'm not sure whether this thread was intending to ask how V could have done better, or how someone with V's skills and a rational mind that knows how to use all of the skills could have done better.

[ringsnake]

In just the way Xykon said, by earning those levels the hard way instead of getting a free pass.

[Trixie]

Ironically, one of V's best weapons against undead didn't come from any of the splices. Disintegrate does absolutely horrifying things when you use it against an enemy without a Fortitude Save. ;)

That's like, a second thing a high level Lich will protect itself from (first being positive energy). We know Xykon already has positive energy protection, and he had time to install superfluous immunities, like that fire thing, so being immune to Disintegrate is pretty much a given.

[Aldrakan]

That's like, a second thing a high level Lich will protect itself from (first being positive energy). We know Xykon already has positive energy protection, and he had time to install superfluous immunities, like that fire thing, so being immune to Disintegrate is pretty much a given.

He definitely has some kind of protection against it. If you remember, V did in fact use a Disintegrate against Xykon and it accomplished precisely nothing. "Deflect" was the sound effect.

Regarding the use of the splices, they exist for the purpose of granting arcane power. So it doesn't count as relying on something other than arcane power. And there's a significant psychological difference between being empowered by someone else to personally accomplish a task, and asking someone to do it for you.

[Squark]

(not willing to sift through large numbers of posts)


Let's see...

-Contingent spells would allow V to set up a few emergency tricks.
-Buffing beforehand
-Scrying ahead of time
-Teleporting outside the throne room, which we could have expected to be trapped.

[Menas]

(not willing to sift through large numbers of posts)


Let's see...

-Contingent spells would allow V to set up a few emergency tricks.
-Buffing beforehand
-Scrying ahead of time
-Teleporting outside the throne room, which we could have expected to be trapped.

You're forgetting the summoning, which would have been at epic levels, as one of the spliced people was a conjurer =).

[ZeroNumerous]

The point, though, is that Conjuration was a barred school for him - no matter how learned he is in the other schools, he's never cast any Conjuration spells before and has no particular reason to read about them.

And? Spellcraft covers all spells, ever. Barred schools or not. That's the wonder of being a wizard, you know all about spells. Even divine spells.

[Herald Alberich]

And? Spellcraft covers all spells, ever. Barred schools or not. That's the wonder of being a wizard, you know all about spells. Even divine spells.

And yet V didn't know about Resurrection's 10-min. casting time.

Ok, fine, he knows what Ganonron's summoning spells can do. He still doesn't have any experience summoning creatures, commanding them in battle, and using them to the best of their abilities, which was the point of Sholos's sniper rifle analogy. I know what a sniper rifle can do (I even have experience firing more mundane varieties of rifle), but if someone handed me one, I couldn't use it the way a Marine could.

The same applies to the other high-level spells V was throwing around ineffectively: they were shackled to his lame mid-level ass. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html)

[Menas]

Ok, fine, he knows what Ganonron's summoning spells can do. He still doesn't have any experience summoning creatures, commanding them in battle, and using them to the best of their abilities, which was the point of Sholos's sniper rifle analogy. I know what a sniper rifle can do (I even have experience firing more mundane varieties of rifle), but if someone handed me one, I couldn't use it the way a Marine could.
[/URL]

I'm thinking that if I had a 'real-time' Sniper rifle expert consultant at my beck and call, that I could work with every step of the way through using one anytime I wanted... I would do just fine using a sniper rifle.

[Kish]

I'm thinking that if I had a 'real-time' Sniper rifle expert consultant at my beck and call, that I could work with every step of the way through using one anytime I wanted... I would do just fine using a sniper rifle.
Problem with this analogy: Your inability to use sniper rifles doesn't stem directly from you deciding, at the beginning of your shooting career, that they were inferior to other weapons and you would never learn anything about them, such that even if the knowledge was put into your brain you would turn away from it with a snort.

[Menas]

Problem with this analogy: Your inability to use sniper rifles doesn't stem directly from you deciding, at the beginning of your shooting career, that they were inferior to other weapons and you would never learn anything about them, such that even if the knowledge was put into your brain you would turn away from it with a snort.

What's the basis for this line of thought? I know that if you specialize in certain schools of magic in D&D it prevents you from using spells from other schools of magic.

But that's as far as I've ever seen the rulebooks go with it. I've always seen it as a limitation of specialization, as in a requirement you need to understand going in to what you're doing - afaik it doesn't have to mean that V. has any disdain towards conjuring, simply that the school she's chosen to specialize in isn't compatible with it.

[Kish]

You're right. Vaarsuvius is not required by the rules to feel disdain for the types of magic s/he chose not to specialize in.

To say that s/he does not, in fact, feel disdain for them, on the other hand...well, divine magic isn't real magic, is it? I don't consider Vaarsuvius not using summoning spells even though they were one of Ganonron's great strengths to be incompatible with his/her established personality, though that's just my opinion.

(Note, however, just because from your last post I'm not sure if you're going on 2ed: In 3.xed, you choose your barred schools if you specialize at all, they aren't chosen for you. Vaarsuvius did not choose to be an evoker and therefore to be unable to do conjuration or necromancy; Vaarsuvius chose to be an evoker, therefore to have to choose two schools to bar, and for the specific schools s/he would never be able to learn to be conjuration and necromancy. As a character created in 3.0ed, s/he probably initially chose to bar conjuration only, and added necromancy when the 3.5ed changes forced him/her to bar a second school. So conjuration is the school s/he gave up first.)

[Menas]

You're right. Vaarsuvius is not required by the rules to feel disdain for the types of magic s/he chose not to specialize in.

To say that s/he does not, in fact, feel disdain for them, on the other hand...well, divine magic isn't real magic, is it? I don't consider Vaarsuvius not using summoning spells even though they were one of Ganonron's great strengths to be incompatible with his/her established personality, though that's just my opinion.

(Note, however, just because from your last post I'm not sure if you're going on 2ed: In 3.xed, you choose your barred schools if you specialize at all, they aren't chosen for you. Vaarsuvius did not choose to be an evoker and therefore to be unable to do conjuration or necromancy; Vaarsuvius chose to be an evoker, therefore to have to choose two schools to bar, and for the specific schools s/he would never be able to learn to be conjuration and necromancy. As a character created in 3.0ed, s/he probably initially chose to bar conjuration only, and added necromancy when the 3.5ed changes forced him/her to bar a second school. So conjuration is the school s/he gave up first.)

Thanks for the clarification Kish!

I guess I've been viewing this thread as a 'How could V have beaten Xykon if he'd been smart and done things properly' thread. For me, with those grounds accepted to begin with, that would have meant that V would have asked the spliced souls for their opinion on how to approach the encounter prior to teleporting in, and not been afraid to use spells that were normally outside of his discipline. In fact, to do things properly, V. should have taken a little more time to understand the spells and concepts behind them that he normally wasn't familiar with, along with a general idea of how to use them properly.

At the very least an overview would have been in order prior to teleporting in.

[Stormlock]

I think the whole time share on V's soul thing kinda precluded any drawn out conversations about appropriate strategy and use of epic magic. The premise I was thinking of was basically, how could V have won using only hir knowledge with the powers available. I think it mostly boils down to buffing before hand and conjuring some minions. Some Quickened/Maximized high level summon monster spells + some mass foo's traits could likely have overwhelmed the castle pretty easily. A colossal spider or 4 would certainly have a decent shot at breaking the phylactery (If you could fit them all in the throne room.) Alternately, a teleport object spell would have done wonders. Of course, this presumes V retained the soul splice until after redcloak screws up, but that's just a matter of a simple buff. (Or killing him before he even gets within 120 feet.)

Edit: How about a quickened True Strike spell followed up with Heightened Temporal Stasis? Even greater spell immunity, epic AC and hundreds of hp won't stop that.

[spargel]

Indeed, although V's questions and rebuttals were fairly well-reasoned considering his mental state, the fiends outmaneuvered him at every turn. They managed to convince him that since selling his soul was his idea, he earned what he got in exchange, and at the same time, that he wasn't responsible for the results (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html), neither of which are true.


She didn't really have much of a choice in the first place, and selling his soul was really his own idea, but it's not a really original or impressive one. I really don't see how they convinced her that asking for help from demons is any different than asking for help from her friends.

Why did the fiends even give her the alternate plan when she was about to take the deal anyways? Did they think she wouldn't attack Xykon or something without it?

[Stormlock]

Assuming the money was available (And frankly, V could just rob some place for the materials) scribbling a few symbols of weakness would have also insured that everyone who wasn't immune to str damage was lying helplessly on the ground, leaving V and X to their mano a mano spell duel. Which, frankly, I think V would have won, even being all blasty and stupid. He doesn't have access to clerical magic after all, and as a Sorceror, has a puny library compared to what V brought. He apparently didn't even have a spell to see invisible. Though, even if he does, that's one more turn he has to waste.

Also, I think the disintegrate beam being deflected was just from his AC. All sorts of crap adds a 'deflection' bonus. True Strike would go right through that. Based on that fact, V could probably wipe out Xykon in one turn even without the soul splice.

And upon the trickery route, if V could dupe X into reading it (Probably pretty fricking easy) a Sepia Snake Sigil allows only a reflex save before the subject is frozen for 1d4 + caster level days. And unlike stasis, it doesn't even prevent the subject from having their brains removed with a dull spoon during the effect. :smalltongue:

[Herald Alberich]

She didn't really have much of a choice in the first place, and selling his soul was really his own idea, but it's not a really original or impressive one. I really don't see how they convinced her that asking for help from demons is any different than asking for help from her friends.

That's because you're a sensible human with full command of your mental faculties and time to think about it, so you can see that there isn't really a difference at all. V, in contrast, was a trance-deprived, frantic, desperate elf who let them tell him what he wanted to hear. He gets control of the magic, so it's his magic and his power and his rescue to make. I don't believe the fiends ever claimed that the Faustian pact is novel; they even called it a "fairly textbook temptation". But it's still V's idea, and that's what's important to him.


Why did the fiends even give her the alternate plan when she was about to take the deal anyways? Did they think she wouldn't attack Xykon or something without it?

Because they're evil and they want to make him feel bad? Compare his speech and facial expressions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) before the alternate plan to after - calm, resolved, and ready to do what's necessary vs. frantic, stricken, and sad. I think he did realize on some level what they did to him with that alternate plan: they forced him to admit that one of the reasons he accepted is for the power, ultimate arcane power for its own sake, not just to save his family. As the title of the strip hints, it fulfills the "all the wrong reasons" clause of the prophecy.

[waterpenguin43]

If V had been smart, V would have done this: Before the battle, she makes herself as resistant to energy as possible, put on contingencies and otherwise prepared for battle with a rival arcane spellcaster, as well as looking up liches and undead traits so (s)he could find out their weaknesses, as well as devised an ACTUAL BATTLE STRATEGY. So if V had thought it out, (s)he could have won.

[Sholos]

She didn't really have much of a choice in the first place, and selling his soul was really his own idea, but it's not a really original or impressive one. I really don't see how they convinced her that asking for help from demons is any different than asking for help from her friends.
They convinced V that it was different because V would still be in complete control the whole time. Asking his friends for help would have been admitting that he was wrong about arcane power being enough. That he was wrong about leaving. In other words, they stroked his ego. A lot.


Why did the fiends even give her the alternate plan when she was about to take the deal anyways? Did they think she wouldn't attack Xykon or something without it?
The fiends came up with the alternate plan, shabby as it was, in order to show V's true reasons for accepting the splice; V wanted power to solve everything himself, not just some solution to the problem of the dragon.

[spargel]

That's because you're a sensible human with full command of your mental faculties and time to think about it, so you can see that there isn't really a difference at all. V, in contrast, was a trance-deprived, frantic, desperate elf who let them tell him what he wanted to hear. He gets control of the magic, so it's his magic and his power and his rescue to make. I don't believe the fiends ever claimed that the Faustian pact is novel; they even called it a "fairly textbook temptation". But it's still V's idea, and that's what's important to him.


That's a little contradictory to the way V was acting right before they gave her the alternate plan. She was highly suspicious and asked about many possible ways for the fiends to trick her. Did they push her stupid button by giving her that plan or something?



Because they're evil and they want to make him feel bad? Compare his speech and facial expressions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) before the alternate plan to after - calm, resolved, and ready to do what's necessary vs. frantic, stricken, and sad. I think he did realize on some level what they did to him with that alternate plan: they forced him to admit that one of the reasons he accepted is for the power, ultimate arcane power for its own sake, not just to save his family. As the title of the strip hints, it fulfills the "all the wrong reasons" clause of the prophecy.


There was a chance that V would have actually gone with the alternate plan, or point out the flaws with the plan.

"the wrong reasons" isn't entirely correct either. V had one good reason and one neutralish-bad reason.

[Stormlock]

The alternate plan was stupid anyways. Even assuming the dragon wasn't already gone by the time V's master got the message, he probably couldn't do squat about it. At absolute best he might have forced it off after V's family was already dead, leaving it a threat to continue haunting V. Most likely he'd end up dragon food. Even assuming he's level 20, that's still a piddly chance to even destroy the antimagic field. And even if he gets through that, it's not like he can cast Time Stop and pull off 8 level 8 spells. For the dragon to pull off the spells it did, it either has some class levels or it's a great wyrm. Probably the later, since it gets about 1/4 it's hd after young adult in caster level anyways. So we're looking at a 37HD dragon (admittedly a black, which is just barely above a white and somewhere below red adult =P) It's saving throws are well beyond any non epic caster's abilities, it's hp are absurd, hell even it's spell resistance probably shuts down most of what a non epic caster can do. The dragon probably could have kicked Xykon's ass.

[Herald Alberich]

That's a little contradictory to the way V was acting right before they gave her the alternate plan. She was highly suspicious and asked about many possible ways for the fiends to trick her. Did they push her stupid button by giving her that plan or something?

And yet they tricked him anyway. Despite all his suspicions, they deftly wove their web of just-enough-truth to get him to accept the deal. As suspicious as he was, he'd have had a much better chance of seeing the deceptions if he'd been rested and not stressed to the breaking point. As you said, he was going to accept the deal anyway, so how did the alternate plan change anything?


There was a chance that V would have actually gone with the alternate plan, or point out the flaws with the plan.

Presumably, the fiends' standard pre-Faustian psych report (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html) let them know just how tiny that chance was. V was desperate to save his family, himself, using his arcane power.


"the wrong reasons" isn't entirely correct either. V had one good reason and one neutralish-bad reason.

Maybe, but it's still the title of the strip. When you're selling leasing your soul to beings of pure Evil, neutralish-bad is plenty bad enough.


The alternate plan was stupid anyways. [reasons]

True. And the fiends knew that, and Qarr was able to recognize it. V, given time to think (and maybe to trance), likely would have figured it out too. All it really was was a semi-plausible way to insinuate that he really wants this power because it's power and he wants it.

Sidenote:

For the dragon to pull off the spells it did, it either has some class levels or it's a great wyrm.
Given her size, her line about having more of a passion for arcane arts than other dragons, and most especially Qarr calling her "ancient", I think the presumption is that she was just that, an ancient black dragon with sorcerer levels.

[multilis]

"The dragon probably could have kicked Xykon's ass."

So what that hints is: V should have made a deal with the black dragon rather than destroying her. IE demonstrate that *could* do familicide, *then* propose alliance to first get rid of X, then work to get the dragon's son back somehow. (Wish+resurrection?)

[Wings of Peace]

Assuming Xykon does not have Spell Storage: Timestop V. could have first discerned the location of a Rainbow Falls and acquired its power. After that V. could teleport to the throne room, throw up a Timestop modified by the Rainbow Falls and then dropped enough stored lightning bolts self to detonate at the end of the Timestop to in an instant deal over 1k damage. This is assuming all material including cross-setting material is allowed of course.

[tomandtish]

After browsing the epic page of the d20srd, I think it'd be possible to use shapechange to turn into a demilich (assuming you were 'familiar' with that creature, whatever that means). I don't think anything short of an epic monster would even have a shot at scratching such a thing. It has frigging magic immunity as a listed ability. Vulnerable to Shatter, but even assuming Xykon has that, it has 20 points of resistance to sonic damage anyways. With shatter dishing out 30 points even maximised, I doubt there'd even be a need to draw a scratch on V's blinged out skull.

May I point you at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html

It's important to point out that ALL she (yes, I'm using she) got from the splices were the spell slots. Saves ... HP... attack bonus.... all those were her own. It may also be debatable how helpful the spliced souls are willing to be. Notice that a lot of their comments and suggestions come just a bit too late?

Finally, if we are going to play V smarter than she was, than we also need to go back and play Xykon smarter as well. Only one prepared defense on the area? If you're going to be there for a while, I would expect quite a few, both divine and arcane.

Sure. V could have handled things better. But honestly, Xykon could also have been more prepared as well. If you're going to go back and optimize V's attack, then in fairness you should optimize Xykon's (and especially Redcloak's) defenses as well.

[Tempest Fennac]

When was their advice late, tomandtish? The only example I can think of was when the Lich lightning immunity was mentioned after V used Chain Lightning, but I didn't think either of the Splices really had time to mention that lightning wouldn't work on Xykon.

[Sholos]

Assuming Xykon does not have Spell Storage: Timestop V. could have first discerned the location of a Rainbow Falls and acquired its power. After that V. could teleport to the throne room, throw up a Timestop modified by the Rainbow Falls and then dropped enough stored lightning bolts self to detonate at the end of the Timestop to in an instant deal over 1k damage. This is assuming all material including cross-setting material is allowed of course.

I don't see why Rainbow Falls (whatever they are) should be assumed to be in existence. Also, lich. Immune to electricity.

[Wings of Peace]

I don't see why Rainbow Falls (whatever they are) should be assumed to be in existence. Also, lich. Immune to electricity.

Delayed Blast Fireballs and Maws of Chaos would work just as well then (Can't believe I forgot the immunity). My reasoning for believing Rainbow Falls would be in existence is that they are a general location specific to no campaign so in theory their existence would not break any rules.

[Aldrakan]

He said he was immune to fire too actually, but the plan of time stop and stack destructive spells is sound enough.
V did start by trying to cast Time Stop, do Rainbow Falls, whatever they are, give you a bonus to concentration checks?
Anyway does V know about Rainbow Falls , even if they do exist in the OotS world? The fact that there's no rule against them existing is not exactly compelling evidence that they do exist.

[Wings of Peace]

He said he was immune to fire too actually, but the plan of time stop and stack destructive spells is sound enough.
V did start by trying to cast Time Stop, do Rainbow Falls, whatever they are, give you a bonus to concentration checks?
Anyway does V know about Rainbow Falls , even if they do exist in the OotS world? The fact that there's no rule against them existing is not exactly compelling evidence that they do exist.

I'm not sure if V. knew about them. V. could perhaps learn of them assuming they do exist if we assume this is an entirely separate combat scenario and V. has asked the three mages S/he was linked to if they knew any helpful sources of power such as the Rainbow Falls. An epic level caster should know about them. They grant the effect that once per day they triple the duration of a transmutation spell so that's at least 6 rounds of timestop to noodle around with.

[Sholos]

I'm not sure if V. knew about them. V. could perhaps learn of them assuming they do exist if we assume this is an entirely separate combat scenario and V. has asked the three mages S/he was linked to if they knew any helpful sources of power such as the Rainbow Falls. An epic level caster should know about them. They grant the effect that once per day they triple the duration of a transmutation spell so that's at least 6 rounds of timestop to noodle around with.

Which means he still would have failed the concentration check to cast Time Stop. Also, since we've never seen anything about Rainbow Falls or Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's fair to assume they exist. If we're going to talk about what V could have done better (by being not-V), then we should discuss things that we know were possible. Otherwise, I might ask why he didn't go get the scroll of Uber-Lich Slaying that was lying around in his master's tower.

[Wings of Peace]

Which means he still would have failed the concentration check to cast Time Stop. Also, since we've never seen anything about Rainbow Falls or Maw of Chaos, I don't think it's fair to assume they exist. If we're going to talk about what V could have done better (by being not-V), then we should discuss things that we know were possible. Otherwise, I might ask why he didn't go get the scroll of Uber-Lich Slaying that was lying around in his master's tower.

I don't think it's playing V as not V I think it's taking into account that V. had 3 different high level casters at least 1 of whom was epic granting her spells but more importantly knowledge. I agree that it's purely hypothetical if those resources were available but I do think that given the experience of V's supporting mages we need to take into account that to some extent V. had a pool of knowledge about the realms, tactics, and spells greater than her/his own.